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So Nader supporters, why's Ralphie accepting GOP signatures?

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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:52 PM
Original message
So Nader supporters, why's Ralphie accepting GOP signatures?
Hmmmmm??? I mean, Ralphie's so pure and saintly, this MUST be a lie. Right????

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/07/19/nader /

Nader accepts GOP signatures for ballot


- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Kathy Barks Hoffman



July 19, 2004 | LANSING, Mich. (AP) -- In an about face, Ralph Nader decided Monday to accept thousands of petition signatures collected by Michigan Republicans if that's the only way he can qualify for the state's presidential ballot.

Last Thursday, Michigan Republican Party officials submitted 43,000 signatures -- far more than the 30,000 needed -- to ensure Nader could appear on the ballot as an independent. Republicans began collecting signatures after it appeared that Nader might not get on the ballot as the Reform Party's candidate for president.


Nader's campaign had turned in about 5,400 signatures. But spokesman Kevin Zeese said it stopped collecting them a month ago after the national Reform Party endorsed Nader and it looked as though he could get on the ballot as its candidate.

snip



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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Didn't you get the memo?
Nader's allowed to be a Bush enabler and Republican stooge because... well, the memo wasn't too clear on that, but I'm sure we'll be enlightened shortly.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. And Nader's a REAL progressive
who ponies up with Republicans..but see when Nader gets in bed with Republicans, it makes him progressive..when Dems do it makes them sell-out Bush lites...nevermind that he busted unions and didn't bother to pay a living wage to his own employees. Raplhies the real deal...as real as cubic zirconia can be.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. As opposed to the Democrats
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 08:10 PM by Djinn
who have fought Bush all the way - oh hang on apart from allowing the abomination of "pre-emptive war" and ignoring the theft of the election and racially based disenfranchisement.

What's Kerry going to do to ensure a living wage - do you really think the corporations that pay him will allow a move that cuts into their profits???

This isn't something I have a say in - being an Australian citizen, but something I think I do have a stake in, unfortunately my country tends to follow along with the US like a little lapdog - however if I could I'd vote for Kerry and give the Dem's ONE last chance but the constant Nader and other alternative candidates bashing here is getting fucking ridiculous and downright petty.

It IS still a democracy you guys have right? people can vote for whoever they like for whatever reasons they like. As for whether that makes them "bush enablers" (stupid & vacuous insult) well frankly they can't POSSIBLY be as big a bunch of "enablers" as the Democrats have been for the last 4 years.
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Just what I expected
If you can't defend Nader, bash Kerry and the Dems. Last I checked, Kerry wasn't being supported by the party of the Thief In Chief.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. Whatever
did you read the bit saying I'd VOTE for Kerry? I'm just over the fascistic thinking that leads to people saying other people can't vote for whoever they want.
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I suppose that's easy for you to say
Living in Australia, as you are. No insult intended, but Nader helped get us into this mess and I, for one, don't care to see it happen again.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. right coz psycho BUsh has NO effect on the rest of the world
Any idea which countries are in Iraq with you - despite the wishes of their own populations? Any idea which country suffered it's first and only foreign terrorist attack after supporting Bush and his insane ideology?

Any idea how badly the free trade agreement is going to fuck up Australia's subsidised pharmaceutical scheme.

Please don't assume that Bush only screws fellow Americans, can't helping thinking of some folks in Spain, Turkey, Palestine not to mention Iraq who'd disgree.
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Not disputing that point
But if you believe that, you must believe that job one is getting Bush out of the White House, right? I believe Nader is doing his level best to keep him in, would you dispute THAT?
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #38
60. Have you actually read my posts
where I've said (more than once) that if I did have the ability to vote in the US election I would votwe for Kerry???

And no I wouldn't agree that keeping Bush in is Nader's plan.
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Then what would you say his plan is?
Please elaborate
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Oh, and I have read your posts
Comments like this...

"What's Kerry going to do to ensure a living wage - do you really think the corporations that pay him will allow a move that cuts into their profits???

And this....

"As for whether that makes them "bush enablers" (stupid & vacuous insult) well frankly they can't POSSIBLY be as big a bunch of "enablers" as the Democrats have been for the last 4 years."

And this one...

"Democrats (and Labor parties in other countries) havn't exactly lived up to the promise of governing for the little folk and they havn't got a good record of helping out the third world."

All points that are easily disputed. Are the Dems or Kerry perfect? Hell no, we don't live in an ideal world and we never will. Will Kerry wave a magic wand and make it all better? No, that's impossible and it's going to take years to dig out from under this mess that Bush has left us in. Will I agree with everything Kerry does as President? Never, no more than I agreed with Clinton 100% of the time.

Is Nader insane and staying in the race mainly out of ego and some twisted desire to keep Bush in and the Dems out? Yes, I truly believe that and I would love to see you prove otherwise.

I'm done with this for tonight.... I'm off to sip my tea with honey and try to regain my voice. I'm sure you'll construe what I said as either a personal attack or more spewing venom. If so, so be it. I'm tired of arguing about Nader with people who can't defend his actions, so they bash Kerry and the Dems because they just can't admit that they're wrong about Saint Ralphie.





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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. SIGH
"I'm tired of arguing about Nader with people who can't defend his actions, so they bash Kerry and the Dems because they just can't admit that they're wrong about Saint Ralphie"

and I'm tired of people who confuse distaste of Kerry with support of Nader (or Ralphie if you must) and those who insist on everyone agreeing with their view of politics
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. People have a hard time realizing that one can not like Nader and Kerry
at the same time.They think it's a given that if you criticize Kerry you're automatically a Nader fan.I like Kerry more than Nader,but neither one thrills me.

Some of us can walk and chew gum at the same time :)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. No it wasn't
Did I mention anyone?

Sorry you're so frustrated.The rules do state having a thick skin is a good thing here.

Have a nice night!

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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. The rules SHOULD state that supporting another party's candidate
Will get you tombstoned. My skin is just fine, I'm just tired of arguing with people who HAVE no argument other than well, he's not perfect!! WAHHHHHH indeed :eyes:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. So who supports another party's candidate?
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Um, anyone who supports Nader and in turn supports Bush? N/T
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. I'll ask again
Who here at DU supports another party's candidate?
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Gee, you're not asking me to call anyone out, are ya?
That's against the rules, ya know
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Ok,name them to yourself
Can you think of more than 5 DUers who have stated they are voting for Bush or Nader?

And are you SURE? I get accused of being a Naderite yet I've stated repeatedly (here in this thread again even) that I'm voting for Kerry.So,how sure are you of who is voting for who?
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Yes, I am 100% sure that more than five DU'ers will vote for Ralph
Anything else?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. Are you confident enough that you feel they should be banned?
What if you're wrong?
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. Yes, I am
They've stated it on other threads, so yeah, I'd feel totally comfortable with putting a tombstone in their profiles
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. So you should PM Skinner with your "list"
Maybe he'll agree.

Or maybe not.
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #83
88. I have a feeling he's already aware and has decided to let it ride
Now I'm going to go to bed and forget about this for the night. Nighty nite :P
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #88
91. Ask him.You never know.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #88
103. And note the complete absence of a Nader defense
It's just an excuse to attack Kerry.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #103
112. here's a defense: nader will take some votes away from bush
that should be good news...for those not mired in insane bitterness, that is.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #77
111. name the names for the blacklist
thanks.
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StandUpGuy Donating Member (392 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #67
99. no what you are tired of
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 01:53 AM by StandUpGuy
Is not knowing why you are so angry.

No one is asking for a perfect candidate.

When the Dem's can say that 99% of the population voted and Kerry lost by less than the amount of votes Nader received they can argue that Nader cost them the election. Even then the real reason would have more to do with Kerry not addressing a Constituency.

When you have millions and millions of people that don't vote you are lying to yourself blaming another candidate for you defeat.

You see are angry at the criminals that stole the election in 2000.

It's the same crew that would have stolen the election had Nader not been running.

This follow the leader is more of the "you must give up freedom to be free" crap.


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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #65
84. what gets me is that people think
what people post here is giong to have the slightest effect on the elction, I can only assume they've never worked in politics.
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. Pot, meet kettle N/T
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. That makes zero sense in reply to djinn's post
It is fun to say though,I give you that!
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Really?
"I can only assume they've never worked in politics."

Made perfect sense to me, but then I'm tired and sick.... go figure :shrug:
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #87
96. Um what?
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 01:26 AM by Djinn
what we say here wont effect Kerry chances - don't think I've ever said it would ...so nope no pot/kettle relevance there.

I HAVE worked in politics if you'd like a more detailed run down on that and maybe references PM me...so again nope no pot/kettle relevance there.

Maybe if I were also tired and sick this would make sense

Time for a nap I think belladonna
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #96
104. Still no Nadir defense
Why are you even posting in a thread about Nader when you have nothing to say about Nader?
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. And your answer about Mr. Nader's plan is???? N/T
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #66
73. is there a point
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 11:05 PM by Djinn
despite me repeating that I would vote for Kerry if I was a US citizen all you hear is that I support Nader which you've assumed from me pointing out the many reasons I have problems with Kerry - I don't, I wouldn't have voted for him last time either (were it an option BUT I just don't think the people that do deserve the invective "enabler" crap they get on this board.

I don't see it'll be POSSIBLE for Kerry to come back to left after the election regardless of whether or not he wants to but I'D STILL VOTE FOR HIM.

Criticising Kerry on this board DOES NOT HELP BUSH - you don't honestly believe that there are undecided voters (or Kerry voters) out there who'll think to themselves - Gee a handful of people on a Dem's forum say Kerry isn't God well fuck it I'll vote for Bush??

Nothing I say however will change the screeching tone of this entire conversation - I think everyone needs a bex and good lie down.

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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. The point was that you stated
That you do not believe that Ralph's plan is to keep Bush in. I asked a simple question.... what then, do you believe Ralph's plan is?
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. OK
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 11:14 PM by Djinn
I imagine - not being privvy to his mind - is to provide an alternative to those who beleive there would be little difference under Kerry, to boost the chances and recognition of third parties, to attempt to do something about the entrenched and hopeless twomparty system, to give those MILLIONS who don't vote someone to vote for.

Like I said I'm guessing based on my work with minor parties in Australia - He could have some cartoon villain agenda to re-elect Bush but I doubt it.

I do NOT blame Nader or Nader voters for Bush's election - as far as I was aware Bush DIDN'T win the election so how that's Nader's fault I don't know - it's not like had those folks voted Gore that Gore would have won because GORE WON ANYWAY.

A simple question for you belladonna - lets just say that the current lot of fascists steal the election again and the Dem's beleive again that'd be better to take it lying down will THAT be Nader's fault or at some point would you be willing to blame the Dem's for there own mistakes?
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #79
85. I do blame Nader, and so do many others
Even former Nader supporters. Why? Because yes, Gore won... sure he did. The Nader votes made it close enough to enable the Republicans to steal the election. Is that simple enough for you? The Internet and Google are wonderful things if you'd like to learn more about the subject.

I am perfectly willing to blame the Dems for their mistakes and I called and sent emails after the Supreme Court made their decision and the Dem's took it lying down. Being into reality the way I am, I realize that no matter what their faults, the Dem's will ALWAYS be better for me than the Republicans or even Ralph Nader.

A question for you now.... do YOU have children who stand to go to Iraq or Iran should Bush stay in office? Because THAT is a certainty should Bush be elected... two of MY children will be off to whatever country Bush decides needs liberating next.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #85
97. Maybe it's you that needs to research
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 01:35 AM by Djinn
Bush "won" after disenfranchising thousands - it wouldn't have mattered if Nader had not run ... see Greg Palast for more info, I tend to read stuff with evidence as research rather than hit a googled website that could have been banged up by anyone...but hey courses for horses.

No I don't have any sprogs and even if I did the Australian public wouldn't be going for conscription ever again...I don't have enormous faith in them these days but of that I'm sure. Although I have to say the tactic of "I have more of a legitimate opinion than you because I've been breeding' is a piss poor one, and quite frankly there are ways to avoid conscription and I would have thought you'd be looking into them rather than giving up and stating that "two of MY children will be off to whatever country Bush decides needs liberating next. " Not to mention the whole tricky point that Kerry hasn't said he'd be pulling out and if the shit keeps hitting the fan there he may have no more choice than the fascists in bringing back some form of conscription - seem to remember Dem President's sending off US boys to die in Vietnam ... ah must be wrong couldn't have been...
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #97
100. Well gee, I'm sorry
I didn't know you wanted for me to go through everything that went on in Florida. The fact still remains that Ralph DID have an effect on the vote count in Florida and the fact that you can't seem to accept that makes me wonder why I'm arguing with you at all. You asked why I blame RALPH.... not about the dirty tricks Bush used, totally separate issue. Sorry to disappoint.

As for the rest of your smartass reply, I'm not even going to bother with it. There will be a draft if Bush gets in, that's as simple as it gets. I will do everything in my power to keep him out and anyone who stands in the way, like Nader, IS the enemy in my eyes. Enough said now. You can reply if you like, but I'm done.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #100
105. I guess some of have trouble understanding
how Nadir was NOT a spoiler in 2000, but if Kerry moves to the right, Nadir is going to play spoiler AGAIN.

:crazy:

They're trying to play both ends. Nadir doesn't have an effect, and at the same time, Nadir DOES have an effect
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. NO it's pretty simple sangh0
Nader did not cause Al Gore to loose the elcetion - Al Gore DIDN'T loose the election.

If I was a US citizen I wouldn't vote for him but I can understand why people might and the invective they get on this board for having the temerity to decide for themselves who they want to vote for shits me.

Simple
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #100
107. and your
pot/kettle remark was smartarsed AND wrong. Never let reality get in the way of a good whine
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Downtown Hound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. But isn't Nader's whole platform about how he is so much better
than that? That he would never sell out to the Republicans like the Democrats have done? No way, not Ralph! He's not for sale! Except that he sure doesn't mind using them to get his name on a ballot where he will get 2% of the vote if he's lucky and possibly end up keeping Bush in the office for another four years.

No one is saying what Nader's doing is illegal. What we're saying is that he's a hypocrite, liar, and asshole for doing what he's doing. And I actually voted for the loser the last time around too. Stupidest thing I ever did.
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Teddy_Salad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Hi Djinn!
I'm an Aussie too....have lived here in the US for 6 and a half years.

You know, I'd be all for Nader and any other "third party" candidate IF this country had the same electoral system as we do in Australia.

But here in America, there is no such thing as preferential voting, where third parties actually do have some power in forwarding their preferences to the major parties.

No, here it's "first past the post"....so you could have three left of center candidates actually garner an overall majority of the entire vote yet have a right of center candidate actually win the election.

That's basically what happened in 2000 here.

Nope, this election is far too important to be throwing ones vote away to Bush by voting for someone like Nader.

Bush has to go. Period.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. well aware of the voting system there
and like I keep saying I'd vote for Kerry - I agree with you all. I DON'T agree with vilifying people who refuse to become in the parlance "Kerrybots" though I hate that term as much as "enabler". I disagree with delusion about what Kerry will and wont do.

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Teddy_Salad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. Kerry's not all my cuppa tea either....
....but when compared with Bush? No contest.

Bush IS evil incarnate.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Corporations that pay him?
He has one of the best records in the senate where corporate money is concerned..of course for the general election, he needed to compete with Bush's 200 million dollar war chest...I make no apologies for Democrats remaining competitive and being able to campaign.

BTW, Democrats DID stand up to Bush on a number of things..and you might want to go recheck the numbers of Dems that did NOT vote for the war versus those that did and compare that with Republican numbers...I really HATE when people post HALF the story.

Oh...and which party stood up for labor unions and overtime? Was that the Repubs?

And you might wish to educate yourself on the facts of NADER as employer...when he had a chance to pay a living wage ...did he? NO..what is more hypocritical than telling business to behave in a fashion you yourself didn't when you had the opporunity?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Didn't Kerry vote with Bush 72% of the time?
Did I imagine this? (always a possibility)

Anyone? Beuller?

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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Would you like to back that statement up?
Not saying you can't, I'd just like to see a link, SOMETHING that backs that statement up. Pretty please? :D
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Uh,that's why I asked
:shrug:
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Well, something gave you the idea that he voted with Bush
And that he did it 72% of the time, correct? So my question is, how did you come to believe this?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. I dont believe it
again,THAT'S WHY I ASKED :eyes:

I could have heard it,dreamed it,who knows....that why I asked,not stated it as fact.You can tell the difference can't you?
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. And I asked what gave you that idea?
Doesn't matter, you have your answer.... problem solved
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. You inverted it, it would seem
From the right-wing rag standard-bearer:
http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200401220835.asp
The publication Congressional Quarterly examined 119 recorded votes held in 2003 in which the president had taken a position. CQ found that Kerry was present for just 28 percent of those votes. In contrast, Kerry's colleague from Massachusetts, Ted Kennedy, was present for 97 percent of the votes.

When Kerry showed up, he did indeed vote against the president a significant number of times. In 2003, according to CQ, Kerry sided against the president 70 percent of the time. Kennedy, usually viewed as the gold standard of liberal orthodoxy, voted against Bush 53 percent of the time.


Could it be that your antipathy for Kerry twisted your memory of what you heard?

Naah.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Could it be I was asking a question?
Thanks for your answer,snarkiness or not.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. Will this revelation change your opinion of him at all?
After all, it appears that your opinion of Kerry was based on false premises.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. I'll let you in on a little secret
Kerry was my number one pick long ago before the primaries started.I was very excited by his running.I'm still voting for him.My opinion of him is based on numerous factors,not just that he "isn't Bush".

ABB is great for 2004.For 2008 it will kill us progressives because the Dems will think that pandering to the middle-right is the way to win.It's not.People are voting for Kerry because they hate Bush,not because Kerry is great.In 2008 the Bush boogeyman wont be there.

So for me,who to be honest doesn't really give a shit which letter is next to a candidate as long as they stand up for what's right,seeing the potential for progressive ideals to be further marginilized in the future is hardly a thing to cause excitement.I understand the need to lean to the center in an election.But if Kerry leans back left he'll get hit with the flip flopper bit.If he doesn't than he really isn't someone worth voting for again to me.Either way it spells trouble.I'd rather see him stay left,like his record for the last 20 years has indicated,than to see him pretending to be all things to all people.People aren't "sheeple" as so many like to put it,and they see through that shit more often than not.

The left is holding it's nose because of Bush.They wont do so again in 2008.The left has little option this time around.The next time it will be a different story and the dems will be weaker for the attitude they have adopted towards the left this time around UNLESS Kerry suprises us and leads more from the left than how he's running for President ( and I hope against hope that he does indeed suprise me).

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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
53. Sorry, no sale.
"well frankly they can't POSSIBLY be as big a bunch of "enablers" as the Democrats have been for the last 4 years."

You do realize that Democrats are the minority party in both the House and Senate, don't you? Maybe not, since you are an Australian. The real enablers and cowards are the moderate Republicans who are allowing the Bush Junta to trample on our Constitution and not holding this administration accountable as they were more than happy to do to Clinton.

And guess what? If Kerry does win but we don't take control of the House and Senate, you and many progressives on the board will be bellyaching about the Democrats being just like the Republicans.
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Great post N/T
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. No, being Australian means
I'm too busy tending to my roo herd to really understand a simple issue like political minorities :eyes:

The thing is politics is about more than the vote in Congress, do you think that if the Dem's had made a wee bit more noise about the LIES the Iraq war was predicated on (rather than wimping out and later claiming they beleived those lies - which if true means they should get out of politics altogether) and perhaps made a bit moer noise about election theft they may have helped to balance the propaganda a bit. I'm not saying definetly but it couldn't have hurt.

Anyway back to the billy and damper making for me.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. There ought to be a law...
That says if you sign to put the guy on the ballot, you have to vote for him.

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neuvocat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. Because Republicans supposedly don't lie to you.
At least you know supposedly they are against you.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. This paragraph from my Granny D thread sums it up
"If any fellow progressives are in the game only to hear themselves pontificate and wax eloquent about their wonderful values and their brilliant grasp of the issues--while others starve and die, I ask them to join Toastmasters where they can learn to make shorter, less boring speeches and also do no harm in the world. Politics is not about posturing, but about winning and losing and representing the interests of millions of people. When you take up the sword of politics, you play to win on behalf of your people, not to look pretty in your uniform."
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. and no-one ever starved or died
under a Democrat admin?? I a died in the wool leftie and would drink acid before helping a conservative into power but to believe that the world is a rosy place under left(ish) leaning governments is to stick ones head in the sand.

Democrats (and Labor parties in other countries) havn't exactly lived up to the promise of governing for the little folk and they havn't got a good record of helping out the third world.

Vote Kerry by all means, hate Nader all you like but don't delude yourself that if Bush is beaten that Iraq is suddenly going to be free of US Imperialist intervention, that the poor will have healthcare and the obscenely rich will suddenly pay their taxes.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. well the poor had MORE healthcare under Clinton..less people were killed
and the obscenely rich were taxed at a higher rate than they are now...next?
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. under Clinton
pre 2000. Will Kerry pull out of Iraq? I don't think even if he wanted to that he could. Iraqi's don't want you there - they will keep fighting, ergo people keep dying.

You can spew venom at me as much as you like, if it makes yuo feel better - like I said I'd vote Kerry but I'm not going to delude myself that things will get heaps better.

What's Kerry's stance on people stuck in Gitmo? what's his stance on the Patriot Act (I'm not being a smart arse here I'm actually asking tend to be a bit more au fait with Aust politics)
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I'm sorry, spewing venom?
Where in this thread has anyone spewed venom at you?
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. so the
"Just what I expected..If you can't defend Nader, bash Kerry and the Dems"

comment and the one about it being "easy for me to say" (even though I'm saying the same as you when it comes to who I'd want people to vote for?!?) because I'm not a US citizen were posted in pure love?

I was also referring to the way you have in general slammed anyone who critises Kerry for whatever reason.
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. I asked the Nader supporters to defend this
So yes, when someone shows up and instead of defending Nader, goes straight to bashing Kerry and the Dems, I'll point it out. I'm not sure how that's construed as spewing venom.

If you'd like to respond to something I say about KERRY and point out his flaws, feel free.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. How is responding to you on point spewing venom
and of course, under Clinton pre-2000..he wasn't president POST 2000.

BTW..you might wish to review sites of some of the progressive charity workers in Iraq...if I have time I will find one..not ALL Iraqi's want us out..they are just HUGELY disappointed at the disorganization of their nation, the fact that their schools are not yet rebuilt and the fact that their infrastructure was destroyed.

On Gitmo..my honest answer is I don't know...on the Patriot Act...he is against the snooping provisions and other items but favors keeping some portions of it...for the record...the portions he favors keeping are things such as explosive tagging, and a whole host of other measures that Clinton asked for after the OKC bombing...many provisions in the Patriot Act ARE necessary...many are not.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Some of the professors here at my University did some analysis of it
It should be noted that the Political Science department here is quite leftward leaning.

Basically, the summation was that there was one particularly egregious portion of the bill where most of the things that we think of when we think of USA PATRIOT were embedded (you know, sneak and peek, searching business and library records, that kind of thing). The rest of it was generally not very objectionable at all.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. Uh yeah that was the point
what Clinton did or didn't do isn't totally relevant - had there been a Dem pres in after the WTC bombing then they would have had to go a wee bit draconian as well (hopefully not as badly) as the wail of the ill informed was always going to get to operatic levels after an attack on US soil.

As for Iraq I get my info from Iraqi friends with family still there and the development charities I used to work for and the amount of people who want you to stay is minute - it's not even mainly about the schools/hospitals/security etc - obvioulsy that's a factor but most people expect those problems post war and frankly after ten years of sanctions it's not like the hospitals were in good nick prior to Gulf War redux (as opposed to the standards pre Gulf War 1) the main issue for most people is the theft of their nations resources and the installation of a puppet government that few beleive will make way for elections and the ineveitable ongoing US presence in Iraq.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. agree on that point and Kerry has addressed that aspect many times
too many people FRAME his intentions as occupation when everything I have heard him say is toward leaving the place secure...is that possible? I don't know thanks to Abu Graib and other atrocities..but I still don't promote cutting and running..I think the world will be far more generous in aiding us in this mess when our foreign policy does not project all the grace of a bull in a China shop.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
80. spewing venom?
for some, the truth is poison

you clearly don't need my help here, but I thought some cheerleading might be in order
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think it is an effort to annoy Democrats.
Becasue he thinks they are sellouts. It seems to be working.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. I think it's an effort to undermine progressivism from within since he
can't possibly win...how much was his tax cut?
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
6. Because he's a
W-iley
H-ypocrite
O-f
R-ancid
E-xcrement

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. "We have to get on the ballot somehow."
Nader's campaign, assuming that he would run with the Reform Party there, stopped collecting signatures more than a month ago - and turned in fewer than 6,000 of them by Thursday's deadline. He needed about 30,000 valid signatures to qualify as an independent.

Nader spokesman Kevin Zeese said the campaign still hopes to run with the state's Reform Party. But he said it may have to use the Republican-sponsored signatures: "We have to get on the ballot somehow."

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/072004Y.shtml

Disgusting
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
56. Pretty sad, isn't it?
Can you imagine a Nader Presidency? He'd be in the pocket of the Republican Party....they'd be collecting the IOU's bigtime. Ralph is a pathetic old man whose time has come....and gone.
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lovedems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. Talk about a flip-flopping, political opportunist who is trying to be all
things to all voters... Damn! The republicans are describing Nader, NOT KERRY!

Where do you go when the gutter is to good for you?
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
10. two reasons
1. without them, he wouldn't make a ballot anywhere.

2. he wants bush to win anyway, so why not?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
12. Should have used the term Naderbot
would have made the thread more fun.
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Nope, this is a SERIOUS thread
Thanks for your input anyway
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Oh,I see
:silly:
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
14. Hahaha! Nader can only get 5400 sigs yet...
generate countless threads on this website. I bet there are a ton of Nader supporters here, LOL! I guess they just don't care to post but we damn sure should fear them. :silly:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. All 4 of them
FLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

He has almost as many threads as signatures!
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grytpype Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
17. Ralphie is so out of it...
.... he probably thinks the Repugs support his vision of whatever the fuck he's supposed to stand for.
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BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
21. The GOP was working my post office with the petition
to get Nader on the ballot for three weekends straight.

And they were doing so openly without disguising their intentions.

Poor Ralph doesn't get it.
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TransitJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
22. I dunno
maybe because their American Citizens entitled to participate in the political process?
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. The GOP buying out a third party candidate
That's just a part of the political process? Go figure, I must have stepped into some alternate universe somehow.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
57. I believe it was reported in the Wall Street Journal.
"Nader franchise assets acquired in LBO by RNC, Inc". RNC plans to invest millions in rejuvenating the brandname....expects complimentary synergies to boost short-term value of their sagging flagship Bushco shares.

:-)
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
48. The answer
He's an egotistical asshat.
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against all enemies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
49. Reform Party USA endorses Nader. And Nader accepts.
Who's the whore now Ralphie? Go back into the hole you climb out of every 4 years.
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scarface2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
58. i hear the illinois nazis are joining nader too!!!
maybe ralf can be david duke s vice president!!
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. "I hate Illinois Nazis!"
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
82. Will The Question Stay Unanswered?
(Sung to the tune of "Will The Circle Be Unbroken?")

I was posting in this window
Trying to think of something to say,
When I saw that Nader come rollin'
Won't someone take that mother****** away?

Will the question stay unanswered?
Or will his supporters just lie and lie?
He's no better than Rove or Cheney
The way St. Ralph loves to lie

I told the moderator,
"Moderator, there's another Nader troll
For this forum has got a lot of 'em
Skinner, can't you please just make 'em go?"

Well, we followed many posts behind them
Tried to hold up and be brave,
But I could not hide my anger
Hoping each one would get a grave

Those Nader people are so loathesome,
Piss off everyone and then they're gone
All my DU brothers and sisters
Trying their best to get along

We know he's a has-been, and so wrong,
His narcissism has gone on too long,
And so the GOP has helped to teach him,
How to raise money for their song

One by one their heads are empty,
One by one their brains have gone away,
Now if Ralphie, if he farted,
His defenders will just say it's a bouquet!

Will The Question Go Unanswered?
I believe it will, oh I believe it will
Because his defenders have nowhere
But here to spread their swill.



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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. *SNARF*
:D

To be honest I think it's unanswered because there aren't any real Nader supporters here :shrug:

But the song was great anyways! :)
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #82
92. POPCORN!!! HOw I love it!
Good one, Zdub! :thumbsup:
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Bat Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #82
93. To quote the late, great Brando..."Get the butter."
We got's us some POPCORN!

How I've missed it!
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Susang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #82
95. Mmmm....Crunchy Popcorn Goodness!
Its been way too long! :party:
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
94. Because
The democrats are spending a butt load of time and buckets of money to keep Ralph off the ballot. in individual states Their efforts are anti-democratic.
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uhhuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #94
98. Ralph has every right
To run for president. he also has every right to accept money and assistance from the republicans.
Democrats have every right to try to legally prevent him from appearing on state ballots. They also have every right to point out his hypocrisy.
Nader tried to get the endorsement of the Green Party. He was rejected. If he felt that the Greens' ideas were good enough for him to be their candidate in 2000, why is he undermining their effectiveness in this campaign season by running against them?
Nader will undoubtebly take many more voters from Cobb and the Greens than he will from Kerry and the chimp combined.
He is not interested in promoting viable third party politics, or even progressive ideas in this election season.
He has attacked the Green Party leadership and has taken cheap shots at progressives like Michael Moore, who has exposed hypocrisy and cronyism in government on a scale that Nader couldn't even dream to achieve.
Nader is the Nader Party. He has no interest in the rest of us.
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FredScuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #94
102. and submitting phony ballot petition signatures is "democratic"?
Sorry to get puerile about this, but Nader started it. If he's going to smear the Democratic Party (and Democrats by extension), then he better expect some scrutiny of the sham signatures he's collecting, as in Arizona, to get on the ballot. I applaud the party for giving this blowhard hypocrite a taste of his own medicine.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
101. Because, Apparently,
The only way to beat Bush is to let him win.

And, yeah, the GOP stole the 2000 election. But it would have been a damn sight harder for them if Nader hadn't been part of the equation. I think several states, aside from Florida, might have gone to Gore.

But the Nader people "stood up for principle" and gave a big finger to those bad-ol' corporation-coddling Democrats. And they're gonna do it again, you sellouts, preferably handing the country back to Bush on a silver platter for 4 more years, for him and his cronies to sodomize like a 14 year old Iraqi in Abu Ghraib! Woo-hoo! Yeah! Gotta love that feeling of "stickin' it to the man"-- you know, when you prove how much cooler you are than anyone who talks about "compromise" or "coalition building" or even "electoral f*cking reality"... yeah, that's almost as exciting as your first batch of blue hair dye, or getting a big anarchy symbol tatoo'ed on your butt. Word up-- Keepin' it real!



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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
108. Is this thread still hanging around
;-)
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Adenoid_Hynkel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
109. because the dems and gop enacted asinine ballot laws
a signature is a signature. if the two parties didn't conspire to force us to vote for one of them, then we wouldn't need to collect signatures or have this discussion
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
110. i hope he snares some republican votes
the more he takes from bush, the better.
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