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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:39 PM
Original message
PLAME INDICTMENT THREAD #11-High Crimes & Misdemeanors


If and when indictments come down in the Plame case,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

300+ DU thread now as MSWord.doc (easier download)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

If and when indictments come down in the Plame case-thread2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

Plame indictments.....Thread 3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

Plame indictments.....Thread 4
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

Plame indictments.....Thread 5
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

Plame indictments......thread 6
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

Plame indictments .... thread 7
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

Plame indictments..... thread 8
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

Plame indictments..... thread 9
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

Plame indictments..... thread 10
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

_____________________________________________________________________

BELOW ARE LETTERS/GUIDES TO FAX/EMAIL/SNAIL MAIL TO CONGRESS & MEDIA TO JOG THEM INTO ACTION & INCLUDING A TOLL FREE PHONE NUMBER

278. CONTACT CONGRESS & LEADERSHIP ADDRESSES:


Fax Numbers of US Congress

http://www.no-smoking.org/feb97/2-17-97-01.html


Congressional Leadership

http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/cgi-bin/leadership.cg ...


Congressional Committees & Subcommittees

http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/cgi-bin/committee_lis ...


Misc. Contact Congress

http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/search.html


CALIMARY MEDIA & EDITORS CONTACT LIST


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...


Updated Calimary list

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...


Individual Reporters & Newspaper List

forgive me, it's on the drudge rag site, but it's useful

http://www.drudgereport.com /
_______________________________________________________________
1 (800) 839 - 5276 - TOLL FREE Capitol Hill Switchboard number! They'll transfer you to any House/Senate office you name!



H20's SUGGESTED LETTER TO MEDIA & CONGRESS

for you to copy or use as a guide to send:
Here's a suggestion ......


Dear _________;

I am writing to express my concerns about on-going efforts to discredit Ambassador Joseph Wilson. In his NYT Op-Ed article "What I Didn't Find In Africa," Wilson exposed a claim by President Bush in his 2003 State of the Union Address to be untrue. Since that time, the White House has been involved in an effort to destroy Wilson's reputation, which included exposing his wife as a CIA operative.

In John Dean's review of Wilson's book (NYT Book Review; 5-23-04; pg9) he documents that two days after the op-ed article ran, journalist Robert Novak was telling people that Wilson's wife Valerie Plame was a CIS "weapons of mass destruction specialist."

Novak exposed Plame's identity in a 7-14-03 column. He sourced his story to two "senior administration officials." These two senior White House officials had lobbied at least six journalists to expose Plame in what Dean calls a "you-hurt-us-we-will-hurt-you warning" to those tempted to expose administration "misinformation."

When Wilson appeared on MSNBC's "Countdown," host Keith Olbermann held up three identical e-mails from the White House. Olbermann explained their intent was to discredit Wilson with their "talking points."

Wilson has noted that Sandy Berger, President Clinton's national security advisor pointed out that since the Bush people never back down, the fact that they had admitted an error after the op-ed article indicated "they must have something more important to protect." (The Politics of Truth, by Wilson; pg4)

Joseph Klein's 7-5-04 article in Time (Plenty More to Swear About; pg 21) reveals that Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components" when her identity was exposed by the White House. "Only a high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge that Plame was on the pay-roll," an intelligence source told Klein.

There is clearly more to this story than the White House and senate republicans are willing to tell the public. What investigation by Plame needed to be derailed by the White House? I hope that national leaders and the media will focus attention on this important issue.

Sincerely,


____________________________________________________________________

KOHO'S SHORT & SWEET SUGGESTED LETTER TO SEND


Dear_________;

I am writing about the outing of CIA Agent Valerie Plame. It seems that the Grand jury Investigation has wrapped up or will soon, but little has been mentioned of late. What may have been political payback to Joe Wilson for refuting the Niger yellowcake claims in the State of the Union address could have actually made this country a great deal less safe. According to Joseph Klein (Time 7-5-04--Plenty More to Swear About), Plame may have been "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components." If this is true (or even a possibility, those responsible must be brought to justice. I submit that underground trafficking of WMD components presents a far more imminent threat to our country than Saddam Hussein did. In my mind this certainly achieves the status of "High Crimes," and I urge you to not let this issue fall by the wayside. The security of our country may have been irretrievably harmed by a few high ranking officials and they must be brought to task.

Sincerely,


_____________________________________________________________________
PALLAS' 'GIVE EM HELL' SUGGESTED LETTER

Dear ____________


Concerning Time magazine's Joe Klein's July 5 article, page 21 revealed that Valerie Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of Weapons of Mass Destruction components"" when her identity was exposed by the White House. It also said" Only a high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge" that Valerie Plame was a covert CIA agent.

1) Our study group has found that Vice President Cheney since 1995 as CEO of Halliburton was fined 1.2 milion dollars for illegal sales of similar components to Libya. Shortly before becoming Vice President he bitterly assailed US policy against selling such components to Syrria and Iran, which apparently hurt Halliburton's bottom line.

2) Our study group has also found that there is an investigation of Vice President Cheney in other countries for illegal bribery and various other offenses connected to Halliburton as well as paying amounts to secret Swiss bank accounts

3)The Atomic Energy Commission has said a North American company is one of 20 being investigated for black market sales of WMD materials.

Our study group suspects there is more to the White House revealing Valerie Plame's covert CIA status since the Republicans refuse to hold investigations on the matter.

Frankly, it would appear to us that possibly Valerie Plame was stopped in her tracks and the CIA sting operation was exposed because it was coming close to discovering another violation of the laws by our own Vice President and the Hallibuton company he has awarded billions of US taxpayer dollars to in non-bid contracts.

There is a question of where the Vice President's and President's loyalty lies: to their Corporate friends and company's bottom line or to the security and wellbeing of the America.n people?

In any case, the exposure of Valerie Plame by the White House was and is treasonous.

The responsibility of the Media and Congress is to expose these wrong doings, investigate and safeguard against this type of occurrence for the American people.

WHY are you not fulfilling your role to me, to my study group, and the rest of the American people in this country and WHEN will you start ?


Sincerely

___________________________________________________________________
Arbustochupa's lettter

Dear _________;

I am writing to express my concerns about on-going efforts to discredit Ambassador Joseph Wilson. In his NYT Op-Ed article "What I Didn't Find In Africa," Wilson exposed a claim by President Bush in his 2003 State of the Union Address to be untrue. Since that time, the White House has been involved in an effort to destroy Wilson's reputation, which included exposing his wife as a CIA operative.

In John Dean's review of Wilson's book (NYT Book Review; 5-23-04; pg9) he documents that two days after the op-ed article ran, journalist Robert Novak was telling people that Wilson's wife Valerie Plame was a CIS "weapons of mass destruction specialist."

Novak exposed Plame's identity in a 7-14-03 column. He sourced his story to two "senior administration officials." These two senior White House officials had lobbied at least six journalists to expose Plame in what Dean calls a "you-hurt-us-we-will-hurt-you warning" to those tempted to expose administration "misinformation."

When Wilson appeared on MSNBC's "Countdown," host Keith Olbermann held up three identical e-mails from the White House. Olbermann explained their intent was to discredit Wilson with their "talking points."

Wilson has noted that Sandy Berger, President Clinton's national security advisor pointed out that since the Bush people never back down, the fact that they had admitted an error after the op-ed article indicated "they must have something more important to protect." (The Politics of Truth, by Wilson; pg4)

Joseph Klein's 7-5-04 article in Time (Plenty More to Swear About; pg 21) reveals that Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components" when her identity was exposed by the White House. "Only a high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge that Plame was on the pay-roll," an intelligence source told Klein.

There is clearly more to this story than the White House and senate republicans are willing to tell the public. What investigation by Plame needed to be derailed by the White House? I hope that national leaders and the media will focus attention on this important issue.

Sincerely,
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wow, take a look at this accusation against Woolsey :
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. After Kerry Announced Dem lawyers at polls,*ush says 30,000
republican lawyers will be at polls across the country.

That should be fun.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. I wonder what color of shirts
they'll have on.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. Cute SHRABY. Brown. What else ? lol n/t
.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
97. I thought bush didn't like lawyers. Unless/until he needs one, of course.
Let's repeat that.

A LOT!!!!!!!!

I dream of hearing John Kerry or John Edwards openly chuckling about this in the debates or some other VERY public forum:

Gee, you sure say a lot of bad things about lawyers - for someone who's hiring them by the truckload...

Why do you badmouth lawyers - when you've hired 30-THOUSAND of them to watch polling precincts for you, AND your own CRIMINAL DEFENSE lawyer, besides...
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Thanks, Pallas..
many posters were getting discouraged at the lengthy threads..
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LunaC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
65. Why does the media always talk AROUND the PNAC?
"Woolsey is part of a small group that shows with unusual clarity the interlocking nature of the way the insider system can work. Moving in the same social circles, often sitting together on government panels and working with like-minded think tanks and advocacy groups, they wrote letters to the White House urging military action in Iraq, formed organizations that pressed for invasion and pushed legislation that authorized aid to exile groups.

Why don't they just identify this evil group so folks can do their own research on the Big Picture? It just pisses me off!

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #65
98. LUNA-hi- agreed. Woolsey also in AEI, neocon thinktank founded by Cheney
and wife.

If tv would present what kind of organization they represent,
instead of just presenting them as "authorities" Americans
would get a better idea of their slant and what they're trying
to convince people. of .

Woolsey also is president of one of those contractor cop companies,
the kind hired to torture people.

Maybe we should look up if he has a conract in Iraq.

Dollars to donuts...bet he does
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. Hi Pallas,
Thanks for starting a new thread.

Maybe this one can focus on a call action! We're all learning more than we want to about some of these issues, but ultimately talk is cheap. We need results, and we need them badly! As much as we need to boil down the facts, we also need to instigate change. I have more to say about this in an historical context and will get to that when I have a little more time.

But come on everyone, don't just sit there. Let's get going! Allez, Allez. Time is short... seize the moment! Or as our parrot liked to say, "No Nintendo...everybody outside!"



(Pallas) I think DU email was down yesterday, maybe it's up now.

But I don't think I'll have much time tonight, but we'll come up with the best way to distribute H20's flyer (and it sounds like he's busy too).



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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Hi KOHO, looks like only a week to the DNC convention and
we need to get H20's letter to put on flyers.

I'm too long winded.

You put things together very well, KOHO, one paragraph letter
compared to my 10 :)

Wanna give it a try? meanwhile I'll shout for H20


me too, things to do around the house before it picks up and walks
away :)
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Is H20's letter the flyer?
Remind me of the thead but I thought it was something different.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. KOHO - not the lettter we have-he was going to do a synopsis
of the threat of NWO/1WG and loss of constituional rights
I thought
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. KOHO - not the lettter we have-he was going to do a synopsis
of the threat of NWO/1WG and loss of constituional rights
I thought
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. H20 - CALLING H20 - how's that flyer coming? I know we're
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 07:04 PM by Pallas180
all busy and especially you, but is there any chance you can write up a flyer for "American Citizens Restoring United States Honesty" with what we discussed in #9 to be passed out at the dem convention?

KOHO is going to be away by Friday.

DNC is a good audience - at least half way aware.

We have time for the RNC convention flyers.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
7. deleted post
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 07:36 PM by robertpaulsen
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. RobertPaulsen - Hi. Well we always knew that Pak & OBL had strong ties &
that Pak encouraged their intel agency to help the Taliban
take over.

BTW - I read or heard that in Fallujah, taken over by whoever, they
have forced the women back into the burkas and are beating people on
the street again.

So what did we go there for?

Oh yes, to make them free, and us safe.

whaddaguy that dimson.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. RP- check your mail about getting ready to distribute flyers.
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 07:24 PM by Pallas180
:hi:


:bounce:


heh heh I luv that little froggy
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Read it. Please read my response!
:bounce:
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
70. RP - go ahead and put your plame-khan-cheney report back up
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 10:52 AM by Pallas180
.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. RP Then with your find of connection btwn Pak & Obl there's
no question that al queda has the dirty bomb.

if ever an entire family had bad wiring, this one is it.

and half the country thinks that's normal.


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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. UNbelievable. Admin now accuses Sandy Berger of stealing classified docs.
oy.

this is too much already yet.

what will stop them. next they'll arrest Big Dawg for saying
the CIA was not at fault.

OK guys, what country shall we emigrate to?
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Do you have a link
about Sandy Berger?
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
32. Is Berger
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 10:24 PM by burrowowl
doing a Daniel Elsberg a la Pentagon Papers?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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RebelYell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
13. Wilson on with Paula Zahn
He's such a good witness, I hope Cheney is shaking in his boots. Mr. Wilson certainly has his ducks in a row.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Is Zahn CNN? no wonder he canceled Lehrer tonite. ok
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 08:08 PM by Pallas180
going to look

Was he on already or going to be , it's 8:50 PM

Well, that was a nice anti-semitic repeating report on CNN
on Bobby Fisher.(sarcasm)

And she's continuing with it.

Let's see, CNN has replayed Pappy's life 10 times in the last two
weeks.

I love her disapproving look at any negative expression against
all things dimson.

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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
47. She smeared Wilson real good
with her little comment at the end of the interview when he couldn't respond. And the Fisher story? WTF was that?
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #47
121. Is Paula autitioning for Faux?
I used to think she was somewhat objective...at least I didn't puke listening to her. And I'm not a big tv news fan, so having not watched her for a while it seems that she's been reprogrammed! I didn't see the stuff on Wilson but what was on was more like O'Really.

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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. Heads UP! Everybody..Tune in to "The GRID" TNT network @ 9pm.. on now..
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Is Denzel Washington in it? smile
.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. ASSCROFT SENT THE FBI AFTER SANDY BERGER-
but doesn't seem to be able to investigage the veep, so other countries do it. Veep's office involved in exposoing a CIA agent
which is treason, so they go after a Clintonite to balance the books=



Sandy Berger being probed for taking classified documents


For those who never visit LBN, this story is breaking and I'm afraid it doesn't look very good. What a stupid thing for Berger to do!

WASHINGTON - President Clinton (news - web sites)'s national security adviser, Sandy Berger, is the focus of a criminal investigation after removing highly classified terrorism documents and handwritten notes from a secure reading room during preparations for the Sept. 11 commission hearings, The Associated Press has learned.


Berger's home and office were searched earlier this year by FBI (news - web sites) agents armed with warrants after he voluntarily returned documents to the National Archives. However, some drafts of a sensitive after-action report on the Clinton administration's handling of al-Qaida terror threats during the December 1999 millennium celebration are still missing.


Berger and his lawyer said Monday night he knowingly removed handwritten notes he had made while reading classified anti-terror documents he reviewed at the archives by sticking them in his jacket and pants. He also inadvertently took copies of actual classified documents in a leather portfolio, they said.


"I deeply regret the sloppiness involved, but I had no intention of withholding documents from the commission, and to the contrary, to my knowledge, every document requested by the commission from the Clinton administration was produced," Berger said in a statement to the AP.

(more)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040 ...


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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Visualize this:



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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I mentioned yesterday that
we need paper ballots in all precincts in case of a massive power failure on election day. I emailed Madsen and here is the link he sent me. I might not be far off on my suspicion.

Suspicious Blackouts Who is Targeting Global Power Grids?

In July 2002, President Bush signed National Security Presidential Directive 16 (PD-16), a secret plan for the United States to wage cyber-warfare against other countries. Under the directive, the Pentagon -which is under the control of neo-conservative zealots who make Dr. Strangelove seem relatively sane- is authorized to use electronic weaponry to bring down the electrical grids of enemy nations.

Bush's signature of the secret directive was not disclosed until February 7, 2003, when it was reported in the Washington Post. Although the PD-16 is secret, a few of its main elements have leaked out to the media. They include hacking computer systems to overload switches and substations to cause total or partial grid collapse. But the attacks can be much more brutal in nature. The Pentagon got a leg up on collapsing grids during the 1999 NATO war against Yugoslavia. NATO planes scattered graphite ribbons over electrical power lines around Belgrade, causing major shorts that resulted in cascading power failures throughout the grid. It took up to seven hours for technicians in the Yugoslav capital to restore power.

Since Bush's offensive cyber-war directive was signed, the world has witnessed some of the most unexplained massive blackouts in the history of the modern age of electricity. The Pentagon has indeed -through manipulative schemers like Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, and retired Admiral John Poindexter-championed such ideas as a stock market betting parlor for future terrorist attacks and an Internet-based personal information surveillance program (both fortunately killed off by Congress). It is thus not too far-fetched to consider the possibility that the recent spate of blackouts around the world are the result of another harebrained operation cooked up by the neo-cons to demonstrate America's superiority in cyber-warfare.

After all, the Pentagon has a very bad track record when it comes to using civilian populations as guinea pigs for its experiments. Witness the awful effects of nuclear bomb testing on the peoples of the western United States and the Marshall Islands, syphilis testing on African-American men in Alabama, depleted uranium shells on innocent civilians in war zones in Iraq and Yugoslavia, and Agent Orange on American troops and civilians in Southeast Asia.

(more)

<http://www.newsinsider.org/madsta/suspicious_blackouts.... >
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. SCHRABY I remember reading about
a magnetic thing they had that destroyed power grids,
think about the problem they're having putting the elctricity
back together in Iraq. They blame it on Saddam not keeping up
the infrastructure, but its funny they had electricity before
we shocked and awed them...isn't it?

About Poindexter and his PIS program, which Congress thought it
had killed off, Congress refused to fund it and found that it
was operating anyway. Remember there are several trillion dollars missing that the Pentagon can't account for.

They also now have a thing for crowd control of US citizens,
instead of just zapping them individually, they have a laser
type thing that sprays like an umbrella over a crowd. Why hit
1 when you can get 500 at once right?
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. I read about that..
since it's a laser thing, would the shiny side of tin foil bounce it back at'em?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. SCHRABY- wiseguy LOL-not tin foil but how bout rubber raincoats?
I wonder.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. I'll hafta check and see what
bounces laser beams. They bounce them in the lab when testing them.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Don't quite know what to
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 09:49 PM by shraby
make of this....

This message was supposed to be about Sandy Berger but got in the wrong place. :crazy:
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #20
58. As I said in previous post: is he playing
Daniel Elsberg and the Pentagon Papers? Hopefully.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #58
96. I hope you're right, but why not spill the beans in a press conference?
Ellsberg himself has called for people in the current misadministration to be whistleblowers. If Berger was a whistleblower, why haven't we heard the whistle yet. If he had crucial info that Chimp ignored, I would think he'd announce it in a press conference.

I think this is a smear campaign designed to distract people from the real crime. But if you have any damning "Pentagon Papers"-like info, let us know.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. TELL-I don;t know. We're living it, not too entertaining watching it. like
enough is enough.

The wordl is living in a state of post trauma distress syndrome.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. The GRID is not meant to be entertaining..
The GRID is a slice of reality illustrating how dangerous the world has become over the last 3 1/2 yrs. It's much easier to stick your head in the sand and turn off the reality and give it a forensic name. That isn't a viable option for us at this point, if we intend to survive. Is it?


A replay starts again @ 11pm if anyone missed it..
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I'll catch it.
I'm a glutton for punishment anyway. Rather be ahead of the curve instead of behind like I am right now...but I'm struggling with that damn curve.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. good shraby..
the whole key is to use the punishment to become stronger. That is how we will survive..
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Darn....I came in too late
it was hard to figure out. Let me know if it shows again..tnt ones often do and I'll get in on the beginning.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. I'm sure you're not suggesting anyone here is avoiding reality.
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 10:55 PM by Pallas180
I don't know where you hang out Tel, but the people I know for
the most part are holding their breath, waiting for the
other shoe to drop. No one, no one I know thinks there won;t be
another attack and before the end of the year.

People are living with violence every day and every time they
turn on a news program.

This movie is nothing but one violent act after another. if it
has a story line, it's missing. It's plain gratuitous violence, and most people are sick of it.

If there weren't so much violence and increasing blood and gore on televison for the last 50 years maybe we wouln't be living in an increasingly more violent world.

IMHO
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. I'm not suggesting anything..
just responding to your last post.

I don't watch the news, Pallas, except for my local news and weather. I am very selective about the programs, I do watch because I'd rather come away from spending a few hours of my time learning something than the constant propaganda bombardment from the talking heads.

The reason I'm recommending the GRID is because it's an apolitical look at how much more difficult intelligence has become over the last 4 yrs. and the escalation of the danger is more real than ever. The GRID is a raw, hard look, at the turf wars going on between interagency intelligence egos with the safety of American lives hanging in the balance. The movie which will be a continuing limited series on Monday nights @ 9pm is pretty much a recreation of what is going on in the world today. I find nothing gratuitous about it.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #44
67. Tellurian
I caught the grid and found it very interesting. Thanks for the recommendation. Don't mind those who won't think out of the box. If you want to discuss it in the forum later this evening, just post and I will join in.

Thanks again for the heads up - I would have missed it if not for your post.
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StandUpGuy Donating Member (392 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #33
57. Hey Pallas
So much to say and ask since your last reply. Sorry its taken so long.

First Id like to talk about your martyrdom argument re: Kerry's Mea Culpa.


Note to Mods.This next discussion comes from the following and in no way promotes anything other than our Politicians telling U.S. the truth.

From Thread 9


If Kerry got up in front of the American people, lets says at the debates and laid it all out, apologized to the American people and the world for having PARTICIPATED in the development of a new world order and the support of the on going actions in advancing the NWO agenda. If he started naming names and connecting dots that he has as a United States Senator overseen if not directly participated in.

Full mea culpa.

If he pledged to start by locking up every known criminal in this cabal and investigate everyone else. If he promised to deliver real foreign aid to try and relive suffering aboard while using forfeited profits of the criminal regime to rebuilt the social safety net at home.

Yes he might get shot.
Yes his plane might crash.

But you surmise it would accomplish nothing.



You talked about the fallout from the deaths of great moral and spiritual leaders before they had reached there potential.

While I agree 100% with your characterizations of MLK and Malcolm X, and even to an extent RFK, I dont think it is valid to throw either JFK1 or JFK2 into that group.

Here's why...

MLK and Malcolm X (not sure if you included him but I will) we're true Martyrs in the sense that they were not tainted by the powers they opposed. You would have a hard time arguing that MLK was in bed with or benefited from the tools of oppression he so fought.

JFK on the other hand, while idolized and canonized in death was actually part of the system and benefited from the system he later railed against.

The latest JFK falls into the same category in my opinion. If you have been part of a criminal enterprise and have a fit of conscience, come clean, or change your ways, you are not considered a martyr if you get whacked in a reprisal killing or an attempt to further silence you. You are brave, courageous and may even be absolved of your sins, but you are not a martyr.

If you are suddenly taken from us, while a huge loss, your mea culpa served the greater good and provided ammunition for those untainted by the original sin that fight to restore honor.

Martin Luther king Jr's murder was, like you described a true tragedy and waste of potential. However this brings me to the second part of your argument, that the deaths disenchanted people and ultimately hurt the cause.

While I agree that any great leader being removed from the battle during the fiercest fights can be demoralizing and the ultimate test of will. I believe that it also crystallizes the struggle and sets a new minimum standard for peace.

The Martyr can never submit to compromise.

There are no words that MLK spoke that allowed for compromise in the struggle for civil rights.

Our leader has spoken and he told us to fight!

This has nothing to do with the Plame case except tangentially but I does help us focus our efforts in my opinion.

At the start of the Vietnam War there were brave people that were called heroes by the American left. They stood up and spoke truth to power decrying the war as a criminal, immoral enterprise designed to profit the same people that profit today.

The people were vocal, active and driven. The information was there for people who cared to find it and learn. These people were the heroes of the American left.

Today our hero is a man that was uninformed enough to volunteer to fight in Vietnam

We have also decided that this Right Wing administration is so bad that ANYBODY BUT BUSH must be better.

I think it can be said that in order to save any CHANCE of a liberal left of center domestic social agenda we will ABANDON anything resembling a left of center foreign policy.

This might be rationalized away ad nausea, but it highlights my number one concern in our fight.

Are the American people willing to be bribed with domestic social handout to comply with a corporate elite foreign policy?


The development of this thread in content and information had increased exponentially as the thread count has grown.

However the contributors have dwindled instead of multiplying as would be expected when such information is made easily accessible.

There are many factors at play here but three I think need to be Our focus when trying to fight this.

1. The New World Order fight has been placed in the hands of whackos that are more concerned in proving alien demonic motives then stopping the problems now. This is not an accident it is designed to discredit the discussion much like any 9/11 dissent.

2. Once the Magnitude of the problem is revealed a feeling impotence descends on those less prepared to deal with it or those more invested in the current system.

3. Many in the left believe in one world government and are conflicted about how to fight corruption in a system that hasn't been officially recognized.


Many on the left, including my self believe that global issues can't be solved locally, and bilateral negotiation hasn't delivered the changes necessary. However economic Imperialism hasnt worked either.

I think many on the left watch the global elite build the infrastructure for a global government based on Imperial capitalism and totalitarianism and hope that once built it can be turned into a house of the holy and we will on day see Proportional Representation globally.

This means the dirt poor subsistence farmer in Somalia has an equal vote, and say as a Texas oil tycoon.

We need a huge cultural shift to achieve this, but I think its possible if we start to calmly appraise the situation and identify the perpetrators.

The Builderberg List is the starting point IMO.

I think we should each Take the name of a member from our home country and do a little research on them and post the results.

Then we should help each other make bullet type fliers with the key points.
Who these people are
Who they are connected to.
What they are up to.

Once each profile is complete we can make fliers and distribute them publicly. (Best to leave them to be discovered rather than personally hand them out in my opinion but what ever)

I would love to hear other suggestion of ways we can start to personalize these people who try and stay in the shadows and intimidate us with there 100 story skyscrapers.

Thanks for your time.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #57
63. STAND UP GUY
some of what you write has reason and frankly some of what you
write seems unreasonable

" This means the dirt poor subsistence farmer in Somalia has an equal vote, and say as a Texas oil tycoon." you wrote. That is what was represented would happen by these trade agreements and globalization, but it has not materialized, in fact the opposite has happened.The corporations have taken advantage of slave labor and used it to bring down the standard of living of more prosperous countries.

You're ready for a revolution, but you are safely sitting in another country where there is no Patriot Act.

Your urging that Kerry "repatriate" the ill begotten profits of the
"baddies" and announce that intention and policy would insure calamity. It's a desirable theory but at this point in time highly unrealistic. We have found out that to be President of the United
States does not carry the power of the "Most powerful man in the world" at all.

You go demand that Bilderberg return all of the trillions they have manipulated since 1950.

And STAND UP GUY - what are you doing in Canada to bring about the downfall of the "shadow government" and make people aware of it there?

One step at a time.

And you are quite correct. People have to be made aware of who
the "players" are and their membership in questionable "clubs".

I have already asked someone to do research on people in these
clubs and to cross check membership in each of the "famiglia"
In otherwords, does one person belong to all three, to two clubs
or just the main Godfather club.

That can come after the election. And the content of the flyers
will depend on who is elected.

The focus for Americans is the election,if there is even to be one,
And that is as it must be.

Martin Luther King did not die purposely in order
to be martyred.

A philosophy of martyrdom is not embraced in this country or admired- except for Jesus, and even he expected God to save him.



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StandUpGuy Donating Member (392 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #63
101. Hey Pallas
Thanks again for indulging my sometimes very theoretical arguments that often seem like they are off topic or counter to our cause.

I believe however that my objective is to try and expand the discussion of Plame and broaden the scope of our inquiry.

I think its important to discuss how we really feel on major important issues of the new world order because they do have the official propaganda plan in place to roll out when officials start to reveal the One World Government. When it is unveiled, we on the left need to have our ideological argument and expositions of key players ready.

The issue of Martyrdom came up as a response to my trying to highlight how unlikely it is that we will have any better results after the election if we fail to realize how far away we are from the Truth being revealed or acknowledged.

I tried to do this by presenting John Kerry as a possible "insider whistle blower" that could potentially take our fight to the mainstream with little physical difficulty.

You were correct when you defined the predictable outcomes. But the point I am trying to make is that we need whistle blowers, and not just the low level operatives.

The reasons that we are unlikely to get any are the root causes of our battle.

When you mentioned martyrdom I was concerned that you, and generally we, have become wrapped up in spin and double speak for so long now that we label people incorrectly or we use definitions wrongly. I was never trying to suggest a senseless act of sacrifice in order to receive marginal or no political gain.

This is how we now view the term martyr after years of seeing young Palestinians being used as tools by their own political elite.


martyr ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mrtr)
n.
One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.
One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.

One who endures great suffering: a martyr to arthritis.
One who makes a great show of suffering in order to arouse sympathy.



This definition of martyr is how I was defining MLK and framing our struggle.Do I think we need Martyrs? Do you in my context?

You asked me what I am doing here in Canada to fight the NWO.

I have spent a few years trying to identify the people and the tools used by them to support their endeavors.

I think that it is impossible to solve global issues locally, therefore once I realized that Canada had a limited role in world politics I sought to affect as much awareness here in Canada while allowing time to help in the global struggle.

The local work has been primarily trying to find out who in power politically in this country are aware of what is going on who is not.

I found it staggering that the leader of the largest progressive party in our country had no idea about the conspiracy we face. I know this because I have become acquainted to his only son who is around the same age and works with a friend of mine.

The mutual friend who I have long since indoctrinated had suggested the son speak to me about local progressive politics knowing full well it wouldnt take long before global issues were discussed.

After many late nights drinking and discussing, it became clear that the messages were now being discussed in his home for the first time, and he personally was now rethinking his global strategies.

Globally, my fight is to convince as many Americans that will listen that John Kerry NEEDS to get Elected and he NEEDS to be held accountable starting NOW.

I dont do that in 20 second sound bites because I dont think its enough to let the people think George Bush is the Enemy. Defeating George Bush will only be a victory against the Power elite if they know the American people are on to them.

Right now they see an American public focused on the targets the elite put up to distract from themselves.

Im trying to change that here and on other American sites.

Like Ive said I find Americans very eager to learn and debate. I am often told to go away by people lees inclined to listen or debate, but many like you do indeed want to at least refute me, and often times debate my issues.

For this opportunity I am forever grateful to the Mods of this site and people like you.

:yourock:
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #101
109. "victory against Power elite if they know American people are onto them "
Stand Up Guy,

Believe me, the "Power Elite" know the American people are
onto them. They read these threads too.

That means up to 60 million Americans may be onto them,

When 200 million are onto them, I would guess they'll worry.

Our problem is the media is now owned by the Corporations, members
of the "power elite" tri-umvirate.

One step at a time. And our immediate step is the elections.

Defeating dimson is an important first step in stalling and perhaps the beginning of dismantling an important part of NWO.

As H20 would say, one step at a time.
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DrBB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
22. Still waiting for that "tectonic shift"
Much as I respect Marshall and TPM, I'm starting to feel pretty dubious that anything's going to come out to justify his pre-vacation teaser. From what I gathered, following the story, it was clearly narrowing in on the question of who faked the Niger documents and why, a matter Marshall has been concerned with since early on in the whole affair. But this is starting to look like yet another instance of blogosphere vaporware. When does the shift hit the fan???
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. DR BB - as soon as we know we'll tell you. ( grin)
:hi:
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SayitAintSo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
42. I'm wondering that too ... Is Josh Joshing ? He's such a TEASE !!!
I am surprised that the WHO FORGED THE DOCs question has gotten such little play in the media. It really is a key question in my mind. And then if you ask the, WHO BENEFITS question, well.... there ya go ... what does that tell you!

Waiting Josh..... fingers drumming on desk top..... :)
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #42
119. Me too, and he said it was going to be several weeks more.
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 07:53 PM by calimary
When he ended his conference call with us at the Kerry party on Sunday, he said it was because he had to go do an interview for this very story he was still working on.

Just "intelligence-related" and "manipulative intelligence." Whotheheck knows what THAT means? His reaction when I first broached the subject was, somewhat surprisingly, rather flat. As though I were asking him about a lackluster relative he was going to see again for maybe the 37th time. I thought that at least there'd be a knowing snicker or reference to - oh yeah, my STORY!! Or maybe a "YEAH, I'm REALLY excited about it, we're gonna blow the lid off..." Or maybe a "yeah, I've got people in this story you wouldn't believe! Even Dan Rather can't get to 'em." Or maybe an "oh, Lordy, I've been working on this for weeks. No sleep. We're all on pins and needles. We may have to go hide somewhere after it's released - to keep from getting arrested." NONE. NOTHING. ZIP. Yawn.

Frankly (AND LET ME SAY FORMALLY HERE, THIS IS ONLY MY IMPRESSION AND I HAVE NOTHING FACTUAL OR CONCRETE ON WHICH TO BASE THIS), I got a fleeting sense that he was almost reluctant or maybe even embarrassed about having puffed it up so much - I mean, sheesh, "shift the tectonic plates in this city where I hang my hat" - what are we supposed to think when you bill it like that?!?!?! Again, this was just my impression. But his reaction, his tone of voice, all very matter of fact, as though he were talking about going out to buy groceries or something. It certainly didn't SOUND as though he felt he was sitting on a few sticks of dynamite, no less a Richter scale. I could certainly be reading into things, or misinterpreting things. Easily. But I was slightly taken aback by the casual way he spoke of it.

And then again, maybe he was downplaying it because he wanted to play humble, or keep his cards close to his vest. I've never heard him speak before, and we certainly couldn't see him, so there was nothing else on which to judge as far as body language or any fidgeting or shifting around or other indicators that tell you extra things. OF COURSE I was hoping for a scoop or to joggle something out of him. He wasn't having any of it.

Also, it was interesting at the party, ALL pro-Kerry people, all VERY anti-bush people. But it was amazing how little they knew. Some of 'em had heard a few things about a few things. But, poor Josh - it was clear that nobody besides me and the hosts who'd arranged it knew even who Joshua Micah Marshall was. Nobody was familiar with his site. I said "Talking Points Memo" and got blank stares everywhere, EVEN FROM this reporter colleague who was there to lead the interview from our end. He was a guy currently with CNN (behind the scenes) whom I recognized from many years covering the entertainment beat here in L.A. I KNEW I'd seen him, probably as a field producer, back with the camera crews whenever we'd all be in some gangbang together. He went by various passages from an Atlantic Monthly article Josh had written about Kerry, and what kind of different foreign policy we'd have if Kerry were prez. He left the Talking Points Memo follow-up to me.

By the way, there was a lot else the group didn't know much about, either. Afterwards, I got into one of my rants with a couple of people - we were all complaining about White House dirty tricks and I started talking about Lee Atwater and how he'd felt compelled to apologize to Michael Dukakis on his deathbed for the Willie Horton smear, and I was met with mouths agape.

Probably a microcosm of a large cross-section of voters - who know only enough to be certain they don't like bush, and they DO like Kerry, but they don't know all the details. They all must have lives...

I was actually somewhat disappointed in the Josh Marshall bit. But then again, I had the expectations knob turned up to high.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #119
145. HI CALIMARY-keep spreading the word - maybe Marshall
was scared to death at what he discovered.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #145
151. AHA! Now THAT is something I had not considered.
Trying to downplay something, maybe, to keep "the wrong element" off his trail?

This is starting to make me dizzy. Where is Columbo when you need him?
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
24. Thanks for these great threads but I have a question.
I made it through the first 3 but I'm having trouble loading #8 and I've always been one of those turn to the last page to see what happens kind of people.

So what happened on July 14th?
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. All the media started to
discredit Wilson..big time on the 14th. That tells me something will be coming down the pike soon.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
40. Yes,, my link on the ones before 8 are not working either. I'll
see if I can fix it tomorrow.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
105. Congress called for White House action on the Plame scandal.
Lawmakers call for White House action on outed CIA spy

Wed Jul 14,12:30 PM ET
WASHINGTON (AFP) - One year after an undercover CIA (news - web sites) agent was outed in the US press, lawmakers in Congress expressed outrage that little apparent progress has been made in tracking down the government officials who revealed her identity.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1521&e=...
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #105
185. Just called Levin's office
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 12:29 PM by kgfnally
since my email on his webform for some reason appeared to have bounced, and here's what I said:

Hello, I'm <name> and I'm a constituent from <place>. I'm calling today regarding something I should think would be a well-known issue to the public by now, but for some reason is not- the outing of Valerie Plame, fmr. Amb. Joe Wilson's wife, as a CIA agent.

For the past couple weeks or so, several members of a message board I'm on, democraticunderground.com, have been researching this issue and related persons and events with the alacrity of what could be called a master class on the subject. In the process, one question which has come to the front is why? Why was Plame outed?

We know that this information had to have come from very high up in this administration, as only a few people would have had clearance to know Plame's identity and occupation as an agent in the middle east searching for chemical, biological, and nuclear weaponry, and reporting on their movements back to US intel.

This leak was a crime.

Maybe it's the active grand jury investigation being led by Fitzgerald that's forcing hill Democrats to remain essentially silent on this issue in the media, but it seems to me that the Democrats are reacting to the recent attacks on Wilson and now Berger, when they could be responding instead by keeping the issue of who the leaker might have been (as well as the fact that the leak itself was a crime) on the table. This entire charade appears tailor-made to attack the Bush administration's effectiveness in stopping the movements of weapons of mass destruction.

Senator <name> and his colleagues could frame the message like this:

"We need to know the identity of the White House officials who exposed and have covered up the exposure of a deep cover CIA agent and destroyed a CIA operation charged with monitoring the proliferation of WMD. It's a felony and it's an act that borders on treason that has seriously jeopardized our nation's security."

(comment to HootieMcBoob: :) )

Even if it doesn't actually border on treason, it's still a good intimation to make, because it puts into the public's mind that this is a very serious nonpartisan matter. I feel the Senator and his colleagues should take the personal attacks completely off the table and focus on this- the outing of an undercover CIA agent is the issue here, along with why she was outed.

At this point, the staffer politely cut me off: "Well, I'll certainly pass on your comments to the Senator; you make some very good points."

:)

I'm calling Stabenow's office in a bit with the same basic speech.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
37. a helpful discerning link..
gleaned from another thread:

The Crazies are Back
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. Looky, looky, looky.
President Defends Allegation On Iraq
Bush Says CIA's Doubts Followed Jan. 28 Address
Wapo July 15, 2003

(snip)

In the face of persistent questioning about the use of intelligence before the Iraq war, administration officials have responded with evolving and sometimes contradictory statements. The matter has become increasingly charged, as Democrats demand hearings about Bush's broader use of intelligence to justify the Iraq war.

The president's remarks yesterday came as evidence emerged that the administration had information that seemed to guarantee that Iraq probably could not acquire nuclear material from Niger. A four-star general, who was asked to go to Niger last year to inquire about the security of Niger's uranium, told The Washington Post yesterday that he came away convinced the country's stocks were secure. The findings of Marine Gen. Carlton W. Fulford Jr. were passed up to Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff -- though it was unclear whether they reached officials in the White House.

A spokesman for Myers said last night that the general has "no recollection of the information" but did not doubt that it had been forwarded to him. "Given the time frame of 16 months ago, information concerning Iraq not obtaining uranium from Niger would not have been as pressing as other subjects," said Capt. Frank Thorp, the chairman's spokesman.

In an interview, Fulford said he came away "assured" that the supply of "yellowcake" was kept secure by a French consortium. Both Fulford, then deputy commander of the U.S. European Command and his commander, Air Force Gen. Joseph Ralston, said the issue did not surface again, although they were both routinely briefed on weapons proliferation in Africa. "I was convinced it was not an issue," Fulford said.

(more)

<http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=artic... >
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
52. Tell.....you have
too many slashes in the link. Doesn't work without taking them out.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #37
54. LINK: "The Crazies are Back"
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/09/17/154...

Wednesday, September 17th, 2003
The Crazies Are Back: Bush Sr.s CIA Briefer Discusses How Wolfowitz & Allies Falsely Led the U.S. To War

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Former CIA analysts Ray McGovern and David MacMichael accuse President Bush of waging the Iraq war based on a series of lies, discuss the unprecedented pressure that VP Dick Cheney put on the CIA before the invasion and call on CIA analysts and agents to come forward with information that will reveal the lies of the Bush administration.


* Ray McGovern, former CIA analyst.
* David MacMichael, former CIA analyst.

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TRANSCRIPT

AMY GOODMAN: A number of senators including New York Senator Charles Schumer, Dick Durbin of Illinois, Congress Member Harry Waxman and others have called for an investigation into who outed Joseph Wilsons wife, Valerie Plame as a CIA operative, who blew her cover. We called the White House to see if they were conducting an investigation. They said to call the FBI. We called the FBI. They said theyre looking into it but that they would not yet classify it as an investigation. Well today we turn to an interview that I did with two former CIA analysts to talk about just what it means for an analyst or agent to have their cover blown. While we had them in the studio, we talked about many other issues as well to shed some light on the way intelligence or lack of it has been used over the years. We began with former CIA analyst Ray McGovern, who worked closely with George Bush senior when he was Director of Central Intelligence right through his presidency. And the law was passed under Bushs watch that made the blowing of a covert operative a felony. Were going to turn now to that interview.

Lets go back in time to something former President Bush, this is George Bush senior, said. Langley, Virginia, he is at the Central Intelligence Agency Im reading from an Associated Press report:

Former President Bush, helping the CIA celebrate its 50th birthday, called agency critics nuts. He singled out for criticism Philip Agee, a former CIA agent and later critic of the agency. Remember Philip Agee, who I consider a traitor to our country?'' Bush asked, referring to Agee's efforts to expose CIA operations and identify spies. Bush said some of the criticism of the Directorate of Operations ruined secret U.S. clandestine operations in foreign countries and, in one instance, blew the cover of CIA station chief in Greece, Richard Welch, who was assassinated outside his residence in Greece in the mid-1970s. Bush was careful not to directly link Agee to Welch's death. Agee dropped a defamation suit against former first lady Barbara Bush earlier this year after Mrs. Bush acknowledged that the first edition of her memoir was erroneous in saying that Agee had exposed Welch's identity.'' David MacMichael, explain this.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #54
61. Thanks, b_m_u
I checked back on the link and it worked for me..

I appreciate your taking time to do a repost, though..

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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #54
71. Nice to be reminded of this.
When the current President's own father refers to these people as "the crazies" (the interview doesn't come right out and say this; McGovern says "there's a certain delicacy to this"- lol)... well, folks, we're in trouble.

I'd known about this interview before now, but it's still a nice refresher course. We all ought to read it well...
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #37
68. link doesn't work
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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
46. I'm begining to
worry that nothing is going to happen with this. And now, they're trying to discredit Joe Wilson. Anyone see Paula Zahn tonight? I could've slapped her.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Not to worry
it's like H20 said..It's a federal crime to leak a NOC agent. They can't dismiss that.
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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. I know. I've been
following H20man's posts through these threads. My quesiton is, did Fitzgerald get the good on them or not?
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. If he questioned the
president and v. president, he had to have a reason.
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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. I agree with you.
And they got lawyered up, which is highly unusual, according to our friend John Dean. He oughta know. I just get worried that they're going to slither out of this somehow. Okay, I'll take a deep breath now.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #46
66. Hi Mountainvue - my sentiments on Zahn exactly. why doesn't
she just come out wearing a big republican button

unbiased news indeed!
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Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
55. Okay, I'll bite.
I hear the right Bashing J.Wilson lately. Saying he got caught in lies. That he is on some kind of crusade. That stuff in his writings and details can be refuted. Any concerns about this? Did he exaggerate anything about his dealings in Niger. Did his wife send/recommend to send him there? Not that I give a rat's ass about the right...I'd just hate to be found driving in the wrong lane in the final analysis.

So, what's up?
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. It's immaterial whether his wife did or
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 12:55 AM by shraby
didn't send him there. Apparently she said he was qualified for the job. This is just smoke and mirrors to divert attention from the crime that was committed..leaking her name to the newspapers.
No one knew what she did in the CIA, not her family, not her husband. No one except a couple of highly placed officials.

Get his book and read it carefully and you will understand the story.

edited to add.
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Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. Get Wilson's book you mean?...okay...
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #59
81. Here's a good article explaining
the Wilson story.

Bashing Joe Wilson

The Senate intelligence committee's report on prewar intelligence demonstrates that George W. Bush launched a war predicated on false assertions about weapons of mass destruction and misled the country when he claimed Saddam Hussein was in cahoots in al Qaeda. But what has caused outrage within conservative quarters? Passages in the report that they claim undermine the credibility of former Ambassador Joseph Wilson.

Wilson, if you need to be reminded, embarrassed the Bush administration a year ago when he revealed that he had traveled to Niger in February 2002 to check out the allegation that Hussein had been shopping for uranium there. In his 2003 State of the Union address, Bush had referred to Iraq's supposed attempt to obtain uranium in Africa to suggest Hussein was close to possessing a nuclear weapon. When Bush's use of this allegation become a matter of controversy last summer, Wilson went public with a New York Times op-ed piece in which he noted his private mission to Niger -- which he had taken on behalf of the CIA -- had led him to conclude the allegation was highly unlikely. After Wilson's article appeared, the White House conceded that Bush should not have included this charge in his speech.

A week later, Wilson received the payback. Conservative columnist Robert Novak, quoting two unnamed administration sources, reported that Wilson's wife, Valerie Wilson (nee Plame), was a CIA operative working in the counter-proliferation field. Novak revealed her identity to suggest that Wilson had been sent to Niger due to nepotism not his experience. The point of Novak's column was to call Wilson's trip and his findings into question.

The real story was that Novak's sources -- presumably White House officials -- might have violated the law prohibiting government officials from identifying a covert officer of the United States government. Outing Valerie Wilson was a possible felony and -- to boot -- compromised national security. Two months later, the news broke that the CIA had asked the Justice Department to investigate the Wilson leak. And a U.S. attorney named Patrick Fitzgerald has been on the case since the start of this year, leading an investigation that has included questioning Bush.

(more)

<http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/20/opinion/main6... >
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Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #81
110. Pallas and shraby...The article you just copied does add that
almost unnoticable little piece of the puzzle. It DID help and I thank you. I get what the "tightie righties" are talking about now.

Pallas, I sure will go browse around in here to see what else I can learn. Thanks again, SB
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #55
69. BLEUS - go to the opening header. H20's letter states clearly what's up
Hope that helps
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #55
99. Read post 178 on thread 10 by Lestatdelc.
It's a transcript of the CNN Blitzer interview of Wilson. He does an excellent job of refuting the accusations made against him.

Don't worry, you're not driving in the wrong lane where Wilson is concerned.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
60. kick
:kick:
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #60
83. Defending Joe Wilson article
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/19270 /



"Republicans are using the Senate Intelligence Committee report to settle scores with former Ambassador for embarrassing the President. That he is also John Kerry's foreign policy advisor doesn't hurt."

"The Senate intelligence committee's report on prewar intelligence demonstrates that George W. Bush launched a war predicated on false assertions about weapons of mass destruction and misled the country when he claimed Saddam Hussein was in cahoots in al Qaeda. But what has caused outrage within conservative quarters? Passages in the report that they claim undermine the credibility of former Ambassador Joseph Wilson."
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RebelYell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
62. Joe Wilson's email
Posted by Joanne on another thread:

restorehonesty@johnkerry.com
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. HEY REB - nice to have you back n/t
.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #64
76. "just as much money to be made out of wrecking civilization- as
Famous Quote:"



"What most people don't seem to realize is that there is just as much money to be made out of the wreckage of a civilization as from the upbuilding of one."

-Margaret Mitchell


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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. another worth repeating: HENRY KISSINGER ON HOW TO MANIPULATE AMERICANS
Sat Jul-17-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #120

123. HENRY KISSINGER ON HOW TO MANIPULATE AMERICANS


Bush 1,Chief of CIA, Pres. of Council on Foreign Relations, member of DAvid Rockefeller's Trilateral Commission, an offshoot of Bilderberg, the major designer of the plan for the New World Order established 1973 but not as old as the Bilderberg Group established in 1954 and apparently to what JFK referred just before his death in the quote above.

(This plan for world domination also known as the NEW WORLD ORDER AND ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT has been in the works since the end of WW2,and prior to 1954.

The New World Order Plan was partially authored by Kissinger who had been connected to prominent people in the US govt. since the 40's. )

Kissinger recently said:

"Today Americans would be outraged if UN troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will pledge with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their World Government."

- Henry Kissinger in an address to the Bilderberger meeting at Evian, France, May 21, 1992.

Circa time when PNAC first written for Bush 1


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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #77
130. Well F me that is a declaration of War
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 09:30 PM by LibertyorDeath
I've always loathed Kissinger the Arrogant Condescending Prick
Yes he's got a Razor sharp mind but that does not negate his Evil intent.

"Today Americans would be outraged if UN troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will pledge with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their World Government."

- Henry Kissinger in an address to the Lederberg meeting at Evan, France, May 21, 1992.



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RebelYell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #64
85. Hi to you Pallas
Not much time today, but I'll read the rest of the posts.

Yeah - Paula Zahn - I want to send her a pair of kneepads.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. REB - lol- you bad -[ I'll pay for half the pair] :)
bwaaaaaaaaa
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RebelYell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. I'm doin' it
You know what? I have quit GOOD jobs before because of what I was asked to do. I refuse to compromise my morals or ethics for any amount of money. I tried it earlier in my career - I couldn't sleep at night.

My hubby is a carpenter, we have at least 16 pair of knee pads in the garage. Paula is gonna get them special delivery from me.



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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #89
104. ROFL REB - do it but let her know whom she's using them for --yecccch
pciture that... yeccch
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #85
126. You don't mean MONICA Zahn, do you?
She's been nauseating for years.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
72. RECAP- THEORY OF WHY PLAME>CHENEY>HALLLIBURTON


3. A THEORY ON THE WHY - Plame -> Cheney->Halliburton


repost

A THEORY ON THE WHY - Plame -> Cheney->Halliburton

On my way home today, as I thought about the why the outing of Valerie Plame was necessary, I was so engrossed I drove 4 exits past my exit.

Here's what we know:

1) Valerie Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of Weapons of Mass Destruction components"" when her identity was exposed by the White House. It also said" Only a high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge" that Valerie Plame was a covert CIA agent.

2) Vice President Cheney since 1995 as CEO of Halliburton was fined 1.2 milion dollars for illegal sales of components to Libya which could be used for nuclear purposes. Shortly before becoming Vice President he bitterly assailed US policy against selling such components to Syrria and Iran, which apparently hurt Halliburton's bottom line.

3) There is an investigation of Vice President Cheney in other countries for illegal bribery and various other offenses connected to Halliburton as well as paying amounts to secret Swiss bank accounts

4)The Atomic Energy Commission has said a North American company is one of 20 being investigated for black market sales of WMD materials.

Here's the theory:

Valerie Plame was stopped in her tracks and the biggest treasonous taboo of revealing a CIA sting operation was done because she/it was coming close to discovering even more serious violations of the laws against trading nuclear materials with certain countries by our own Vice President and the Hallibuton company he has awarded billions of US taxpayer dollars to in non-bid contracts after he became VP.

Recently Libya was accused of having WMD components and the US threat
ened to invade unless Quaddaffi gave the WMD components to the US.
Bush 2 was seen on TV this week inspecting the cases of returned materials from Iraq triumphantly. The fact that Quaddafi received these illegal shipments of components from Cheney/Halliburton was not
mentioned in the victory video.

Dick Cheney, even after the Senate Intel Committee, The Atomic Commission and numerous other agencies have said no WMD exist in Iraq,
insists Iraq has WMD even in the last week.

Why? Because Dick Cheney knows he, through an offshore Halliburton company with a PO Box, at some time in the past sold Saddam Hussein WMD or components of WMD. In the same way "they" under Bush 1 adminstration sold Hussein lethal gas which he used, and then attacked him for using it saying he was a threat to the community.

Why do Cheney and Bush insist they must attack Syrria and Iran as the next step in making the world safe and that Syrria and Iran have
WMD? Cheney-Halliburton know that Syrria and Iran have WMD components because Cheney illegally sold the WMD components to Syrria and Iran.

Why did Bush Cheney know that North Korea had WMD and where did they gget the components?

Why were Pakistan and India able to test and develop nuclear weapons undetected by the CIA's "big eye in the sky" or any agency's seismic
discovery? And where did India and Pakistan purchase the components
for WMD which were illegal for any company to sell them?

What was Valerie Plame investigating?


good spooks vs the bad spooks in the FBI and CIA becomes very confusing to most, I think.



Not to add confusion to my "theory " above, but I also thought:

When Saudi Arabia asked Junior and Company to get out of Saudi Arabia
afer we had built a monstrous and expensive base armed with the newest weaponry - one might call it a home base -why would they do that, when they had wanted US to protect them and their oil fields for years???

The reason given for asking us to vacate was to calm the anti-American element. Hmmm. But if they needed our protection from that very element, WHY would they ask their protector to leave.
BECAUSE they "likely" also received WMD from certain parties.

So now, we can guess, the entire Middle East is armed with illegal components of WMD...supplied by whom?hmmm

And I agree with you ROBERTPAULSEN- it's a great racket. Supply them
with the components, collect payment. Shuttle back and forth between
private employment and government employment, selling WMD for your company's bottom line while a private CEO, earning large bonuses and
deferred "payment" plus increased stock option value, go back into government, create a war on those countries who have the WMD you have sold them, then you have created a situation where your company and the other companies you hold stock in, or which belong to your other associates, can supply the army with munitions, destroy the country you have sold WMD to, and then the very same companies who supplied the munitions for destruction, go in and rebuild the country.


So. Now how many times have you profiteered?
1) illegal selling of WMD
2) earn bonus, increase value of stock options
3) Supply Army Munitions on no bid contracts
4) Rebuild the country on no bid contracts


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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. THEORY - WHY BRIT INTEL WONT SHOW THEIR EVIDENCE
everyone is assuming that the Brit Intel is the same Intel that the
CIA had. (on yellowcake)

You're right about one thing...the intel agencies all share their info.BUT you are forgetting that the French have been investigating CHeney Halliburton illegalities for some time, and Cheney Halliburton
did not sell yellowcake (to our knowledge), they sold equipment that could be used for dual use - and one of the uses was for a nuklar bomb.

So there is nothing to say that the Brit Intel was the same Niger info.In fact it may not be.

WHY would they not share with the world what information they had about Iraq having WMD? And why have they suddenly changed their mindsagain saying it was bogus after all - after insisting for 1 1/2 years they had separate proof of Iraq having WMD?

Theory: because it would cause a great deal of embarrassment to "he who calls himself president of VICE ! !! a-ha!

Could be one of Halliburton's subsidiaries or offshores, whose name and connection was not recognized immediately was in the hands of Brit Intel so they said they had separate verifying proof of WMD in Iraq - only to realize the proof traced back to a company named Halliburton or Brown Root - and so they shut up. (TOP SECRET - CANNOT BE REVEALED, of course while every intel agency in the world knows, but the general public date not know becaue we would hang the perpetrator)

Highly plausible . First they say they have proof of WMD in Iraq.but refuse to show it.......now they suddenly say the proof is bogus - and still refuse to reveal it.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. H20 THEORY - RECAP

H2O Man (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-17-04 02:01 PM




We know that Valerie Plame was involved in a sting operation involving the components for WMDs. This is verfied in J. Klein's article in Time, 7-5-04. Remember also that when Novak called CI for confirmation of Plame's status -- and Robert NoFacts had told a total stranger on a public street on the day afterWilson's NYT op-ed article that she was a WMD specialist -- the CIA requested that he not only should NOT mention Wilson's wife was an operative with the Agency, but that her name should not ever be printed.

One of the things to keep in mind is that by revealing Plame's identity, it insured that at very least, a half-dozen operatives (American and other-wise) were exposed to the last people on earth that they should have been exposed to. Let's just say, for example, that there was a person who was working in the Pakistan area ... and he had worked in deep cover for over a decade, and was very, very close to accessing information on the sale of not only technology, but also components, that went to Iran .... and he had a known link to Plame .... then he would be dead 24 hours after Novak's article was printed. Further, no one in the USA would be at liberty to discuss the fact that he existed.

You will recall that I've referred to this as high stakes chess. A board game where the removal of one player compromises the safety and value of several others.

Listen: if they wanted to call Wilson's conclusions into question, they could create confusion with a series of bullshit documents from England, etc. They could have said that his was one of three US reports, and that there were the British papers that were still open to question, considering that Wilson had not viewed them. They could have even said, yes, we tend to agree with Wilson.

But they didn't. They had been waiting to reveal information on Plame for some time. The fact that Iran is sharing he focus in the recent days, along with Wilson, is a clue .... a big clue.



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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. CALIMARY THEORY RECAP
Pallas180 (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-17-04 05:43 PM


71. I am convinced Valerie Plame was the target, & they thought
they would do a 'Rosenberg' on them. Two for the price of one.
Set them up.Traitors to the country, electric chair, the whole bit.




calimary (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-17-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #71

143. That would fit in conveniently with the message they evidently wanted to put out to the intel community: the "do not cheney with us" message. Wilson has, many times, mentioned that what happened to his wife, whether to her directly or indirectly to him, was to seriously discourage others from getting "out of line." Wouldn't that just be the decisive little coup de grace - to "Rosenberg" one or both of them, to put a chill on anybody else who might be getting too dangerously close? If they knew they were not only going to be ruined, but they also faced the electric chair or some other kind of EXTREMELY final punishment, there'd be icicles hanging off all of them before you could say "BOO!"

And for awhile, they've seemed invincible, haven't they? So who would dare...

But things are a lot stickier and more complicated now. Their anticipated free ride is starting to get seriously mucked up as more people know, and talk, and spread out, and start asking questions, and some guy like Fitzgerald gets involved (who couldn't be counted on to be a "good" republi-CON after all. And, as someone else mentioned either here or on Thread 8 - they misunderestimated the internet. They thought we'd all just shut up and go to our corner and suck our thumbs and mope and cower and give up, didn't they? They didn't know we'd (literally, here) go underground...

As Martha Stewart would say - it's a VERY good thing. And it's gaining traction.

Which is what our efforts in all these arenas should do, as well. GAIN TRACTION.


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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #75
78. ROBERTPAULSEN THEORY HALLI>KHAN-OBL>PLAME>CHENEY
robertpaulsen (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-19-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #216

234. WHOA!!! Could this be circumstantial evidence of a Khan/Plame link?!


When I first read this article, I decided to post it here because of the dirt it has on a Musharraf/Khan/Bin Laden connection.

A. Q. KHAN & OSAMA BIN LADEN

snip
These accounts of three of the travels of Dr.A.Q.Khan establish conclusively the following facts:

He had kept the Pakistani Foreign Office informed of his travels. The Foreign Office had instructed the Pakistani diplomatic missions in the countries visited by him to accord the due honours of protocol to him.
In all the countries, he was received by officers of the Pakistani diplomatic missions and entertained by the heads of missions.
In Sudan, he was accorded the honours of protocol generally given to a member of the Cabinet and called on the President of the country.
He was accompanied by senior serving scientists of Pakistan's nuclear establishment, who were among those responsible for Pakistan's military nuclear development. They could not have gone abroad and remained absent for days without the knowledge and clearance of the Government.
At least one Lt.Gen. belonging to the Pakistan Army's Medical Corps, who had headed it, and two Brigadiers had accompanied him. They could not have gone and remained away from the country without the knowledge and clearance of the Military Headquarters.
The uranium enriched at KRL, Kahuta, used to come from Africa, mainly Niger. This partly explains the frequent travels of A.Q.Khan to Africa. From the accounts given by the Pakistani author, two intriguing questions arise:

Why did Khan consider it necessary to visit the site of a factory in Sudan, which became the target of US Cruise missile attacks after the explosions outside the US Embassies in Nairobi and Dar-es-Salaam by Al Qaeda in August 1998? The Americans had alleged at that time that this factory belonged to Osama bin Laden and was producing chemicals for weaponisation purposes. Denying this, the Sudanese authorities had claimed that it was producing anti-malaria drugs.
Why was he visiting frequently Timbuktu, which has apparently no importance from the nuclear point of view? Pakistani officials have alleged that he had illegally constructed a hotel there ( Hotel La Colombe?) in the name of his wife. If he was going there to supervise the construction of the hotel, he should have been accompanied by experts in building construction and the hotel industry. No such person accompanied him. He was always accompanied by scientists and Army officers associated with KRL and Tahir Mian, who was helping him in the procurement of centrifuges.
It is reliably learnt from well-placed observers that it also came out during the recent interrogation of the associates of Khan in Pakistan's nuclear establishment that after Osama bin Laden shifted from Khartoum to Afghanistan in 1996, Dr.Khan was also looking after bin Laden's extensive investments in the mining industry in many African countries and that the money invested in the Timbuktu hotel had come from these investments of bin Laden. The Pakistani authorities have reportedly suppressed this information and not shared it with the US.


http://www.kashmirherald.com/featuredarticle/khanandbin ...

Sooooo....

Khan, with the assistance of the Pakistani government and military, looked after bin Laden investments in Africa. Pretty bad on its own merits. But then this sentence caught my eye.


The uranium enriched at KRL, Kahuta, used to come from Africa, mainly Niger. This partly explains the frequent travels of A.Q.Khan to Africa.


What a coincidence. The enriched uranium that Khan had access to came mainly from NIGER!

Now, when Cheney sent Wilson to Niger, wasn't he aware of Plame's WMD "sting operation" in the Middle East?!

No wonder Musharraf had this reaction:

"In one of his statements, he has even blamed the US intelligence agencies for not uncovering this network earlier than October last year and asserted that if they had done so, he would have acted against it even earlier."

I know this is not direct proof of a smoking gun, but I think this information could be an extremely important piece of the puzzle. If the WMD trafficking that Plame's "sting operation" covered is linked to Khan, who got his enriched uranium mainly from Niger, and we can verify Cheney had access to this intelligence, then we are getting even closer to H20 Man and Prouty's big question: why?


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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Nuclear Walmart: Little Doubt that OBL has dirty bomb -
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 12:03 PM by Pallas180
if you read Robert's post above carefully, you see that
Pakistani scientist Khan was running a Nuclear Walmart.

1)He sold the secrets of the nuclear bomb world wide. This is fact.
2)He had access to yellow cake by his trips to Africa/Niger
3)He was OBL's overseer of finances and properties, with the help
of the secret service ISI of Pakistan.

The ISI of Pakistan was also the supporter and installer of the TAliban in Afghanistan (and current protector/hider of OBL)

When Khan was exposed as the merchant of death ofa ring selling nuclear materials world wide, he was immediately pardoned by
Musharaf, PM of of Pakistan. Pardoned so fast that none of the US
Intel agencies would be able to question him.

WHY? H20 always tells us to ask WHY? Why was Khan immediately pardoned? Because to try him for criminality would have exposed
who gave him nuclear components, what corporations sold illegally,
what country and high officials were involved.

WHERE did Khan get the components which are necessary to set off
a nuclear device?

WHO? do we know who has illegally been selling nuclear dual components?

Some of these answers go back to the administration in 1988 when it
was known that administration gave other countries the miniaturized
nuke W88. Hmmmm. What current officials were in the same administration?

What was the name of the President at the time?






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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. Why go to the elaborate scenarios? to stop WMD investigations:

Subject: Why go to the elaborate scenarios: to stop investigations into WMD sales
Message:
Pallas180 (1000+ posts) Sun Jul-18-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #59

71. They're not called the Mayberry Machiavellis for nothing - I think

in a way it was the other way around, they weren't after Wilson, they were after Plame. Two for the price of one. Rosenberg them.

Cheney has been in govt since Nixon, that we know of, then Ford.
He's been around a long time with access to top security items.
To recap, we also knew he made at least 10 trips to CI HQ and would
have, could have, pinpointed who was working blackmarket WMD which
would have been of great interest to him. He would also have access
to CI files, would know of or remember Ambassador Wilson. Bingo -
the plot is hatched.

Ask her would her husband be interested in helping? Of course.
Discredit him, expose/discredit her operation and put a stop to her work and the work of the entire spy group/cell she had set up worldwide which MAY have been hot on the trail of Halliburton/Brown Root/et al illegal black market sales of components which could be used for WMD, which as we all know was Valerie's job.

He figures he's home free, no more fines, no discovery of the double dealing, but the Mayberrys call Novak and committ a treasonous act which leads right back to the WH and darth vader.

___________________________________________________________________


Pallas180 (1000+ posts) Sun Jul-18-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #102

117. If Pappy gave the mini nuke W88 to China,as widely reported, there is nothing to say Pappy and darth vader didn't give the same or similar components to Khan. And your theory sounds just about right - Khan would have had to be pardoned immediately because not to pardon him, the good FBI would be over there asking him where he got the WMD and the arrow would point right back to the 1988 administration # 1 and/or the current WH.

Another reason why junior sealed Pappy's records.

Nice, huh. It still sounds like treason to me at the highest levels
__________________________________________________________

robertpaulsen (1000+ posts) Sun Jul-18-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #117

138. Glad you agree!


The extent of treason is pretty scary. Gives me nightmares sometimes. I woke up this morning with the memory of seeing a news report: "Bush prepares for upcoming Iran invasion". That's one nightmare I'm afraid might come true.

But I take comfort in knowing we're all on the side of righteousness in this struggle
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. Hi Pallas! Thanks for posting these theories together!
It's kind of like the Jim Marrs book Crossfire, which is one of the books the movie JFK is based on. It takes a number of different theories on JFK's assassination and shows how related they are, that they are all useful in piecing together the truth behind who killed Kennedy. Marr's book illustrates that one theory does not cancel out the other, they are all helpful in their own way, each piece helps put the whole puzzle together.

We have the exact situation occurring here on the Plame Thread, each one of these theories complements the other. Someone on another thread described it as a mosaic, which I think is accurate. We should all be investigating on these trails to track down the culprits.

But if you think you've found a smoking gun, don't post it on the thread here for lurkers to report so the enemy can figure out how to cover their tracks. I think most of us here investigating realize that as X told Garrison in JFK, "You're closer than you think". Perhaps I'm overly optimistic, but I think we can help nail the bastards and CRUSH the whole house of cards!
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
82. We've kind of been on a sabbatical the last few days-time to get letters
out again.

There are approximately 2 or 3 days left before the congress critters
go on recess.

WE need to get the "type" of letters we have in the header out to
the Judiciary committee people and the Senate Intel Committee
headed by Jay Rockefeller.

To the Democrats, anyway. Cause the rethugs seem a lost cause.

Also guys like Durbin, Rangel, Conyers,Byrd, Kerry, Edwards,

any democrat who has been a champion.

If we miss them at DC, the letters can always be faxed or emailed
or snail mailed to their home district , where they should be for
recess.

WE've got to get enough of them informed to bring the House of Crime
down!

Go for it!
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #82
93. Congress is a great idea for focusing on this week.
I'm definitely going to try to do as many faxes as I can. I've been having such bad luck with e-mails, so many returned either full, undeliverable, bad address or I even had one journalist mail me back saying that she was on vacation until mid-August! Probably too late to snail mail Congress if we want them to take notice before recess, so I shall be focusing on faxing.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
84. Joe Wilson rescheduled today on PBS NewsHour (with Republican "balance")
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 01:07 PM by librechik
Chris Bond, on the intelligence committee-- (the dork who on Sunday repeated Blair's lie about 400,000 bodies in mass graves --true# about 5,000)

Hope everybody has been reading the ongoing Plame/Wilson analysis at The Daily Howler. It's a big disappointment, but we should all read it and remember this: whoever "suggested" Wilson for the Niger trip is IRRELEVANT to the crime of outing Plame. Somerby is just doing his job by keeping the record straight.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #84
90. Hi Librechik- Can You Link to make it easy to go look-see?
thanks.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. here ya go
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 02:49 PM by librechik
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/home.html

(Wilson story won't be posted til after the show tonight)

also www.dailyhowler.com
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. Thanks, here's what I sent to every anchor at CNN
"how come Sandy Berger is being blasted
all over the news but there has not been a peep about the French criminal investigation of Cheney for illegal
sales of WMD components and payments to secret Swiss bank accounts?

It couldn;t be that the WH is retaliating against a democrat to equalize charges could it?"
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #95
127. I called the comment line and complained not only about this, but
about their having Robert Novak comment on it from out in the field somewhere, and questioned why he's even still on the air since he took part in outing Valerie Plame. I said it was like having Jeffrey Dahmer comment on cannibalism somewhere in the Third World, or like having Bill Clinton comment on how not to cheat on your wife.

COMPLAIN, PEOPLE! Remember Paul Begala's suggestion that our own grasswire brought to our attention:

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO DO SOMETHING...make a phone call or send a paper letter. E-mails are quick and cheap and don't carry the weight of a phone call or a PAPER LETTER. Paul Begala says a hundred paper letters would change the direction of a news program. DUer grasswire, 5/20/04
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #127
128. Yes, SPEAK OUT!
We have to be relentless. We are all busy, but if they win we'll be both busy and hungry! So we need to join arms and speak out. Anyone ember circling the Pentagon holding hands?

Won't take as many to circle MSG in August, but we can't get that close. We'll need a circle big enough to cover NJ, NY and CT with the "free speech zones." Anyone game?

A recent cartoon in the NYT sums it up:

Guy on a bike wearing a *mart hat and Tacobell shirt throwing a newspaper into a driveway " I know this economy is creating jobs, I've got three of 'em!"

Paraphrased, but gets the point across.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #127
146. CALIMARY You make me laugh out loud.
"Robert Novak comment on outing Valerie Plame. .... was like having Jeffrey Dahmer comment on cannibalism "

You crack me up.

I also called when he first outed her and demanded that they take
him off the air, that he had committed treason....

You see him off the air?

But you're right...if they were getting thousands of phone calls
he'd be off the air!
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
88. Holding my breath & wondering WHO could possibly make this public!
Surely there is some NYT, WP, or SOME journalists who would untangle all these threads, and start asking the questions our congresscritters should be asking....and should have been asking LONG ago!!!

Do we have to rely on Jon Stewart??? He may be one good bet. Or even explaining it all to Al Franken and Randi Rhodes! Someone needs to start asking these questions, and connecting these dots in public.

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #88
91. LOUDSUE - I'm pretty sure journalists are reading us and have been, just
not this thread, but other threads, too. How do I know?

Remember the time "Slate" repeated a phrase we had used on another
thread exactly?

It'll break.

But it wouldn't hurt to have Randi Rhodes blasting it all over
with her basso voice?

Did you email her a letter?

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. Next email Im gonna send CNN/MSNBC & all how come Berger is blasted
all over news but criminal investigation of Cheney for illegal
sales of WMD components and payments to secret Swiss bank accounts
is not?

Wolf Blitzer his having Berger's attorney on 5 PM this afternnon.
Be a good time right now to e mail him
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #92
100. Done -Sent e mail to Blitzer and listen to that creep.
" how come Berger criminal investigation is being blasted all over the news but not one peep of the French criminal investigation of Cheney for illegal sales of WMD components and payments to secret Swiss bank accounts is not?"


Sandy Berger was Foreign Policy advisor to Kerry Campaign.

Aha.

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #100
103. You Go Pallas!
Also there have been questions raised about the timing of this leak. I wonder if it's been done to deflect attention from the 9/11 report, to embarrass Kerry before the convention or MAYBE, the Plame indictments are closer than we think!
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #103
115. Hi Me. What a week. It keeps getting worse. Big Dawg ought to stay out of
this country before they decide he's a criminal - again.

"Also there have been questions raised about the timing of this leak. I wonder if it's been done to deflect attention from the 9/11 report, to embarrass Kerry before the convention or MAYBE, the Plame indictments are closer than we think!"

pick one..........or all .

:hi:
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #100
212. MORE fodder for LTTE's - "Dr. Gergen's SANDY BERGER VACCINE"
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 03:21 PM by calimary
I posted this earlier, elsewhere, but for those motivated by these threads to write and make a stink - either in a Letter to the Editor OR a complaint to a reporter or anchor - DAVID GERGEN almost literally HANDED us a silver platter full of INDESCRIBABLY DELICIOUS and MOST USABLE Talking Points:

A summary:

I saw David Gergen on Newsnight on CNN (Tuesday, July 20th, 2004) with Aaron Brown. I found myself wondering how soon the republi-CONS are going to put a hit out on David Gergen. Gotta be some dirt in there that they can use to discredit him with. He's their worst enemy in this. He OBVIOUSLY did NOT get their memo. He said all the wrong things (at least from their point of view). ALL the wrong things:

About the timing which he bald-facedly said could be regarded as suspicious, and for the reason he also specified - to draw fire away from Thursday's expected release of the 9/11 Commission's report.

About the character of Sandy Berger - unimpeachable, says he knows him well, respects the heck out of him, AND THEN proceeded to spell out in some detail how Sandy Berger worked almost literally around the clock during what we now know as the run-up to the Millennium terrorist threats, and Gergen REPEATEDLY stated that Berger "STOPPED THE ATTACKS." He must have repeated that maybe three or four times.

And to add insult to injury, he flat-out stated that "these people should be THANKING Sandy Berger for all his hard work because (repeating yet again) HE STOPPED THE ATTACKS.

FURTHERMORE, Gergen referred back to ALL the republi-CON puffing, which is, I think, the phrase he used, or maybe even "unnecessary puffing" by those who had just been shown in videotaped clips, fulminating about how awful this was and how it was such a serious breach of national security - you could see all the usual suspects, Dennis Hastert coming to the mike with the coterie of gop henchmen - tom delay, and others, all really indignant and frowny-looking, and then the senators - including rick santorum and - our dear darling Georgia CHICKENHAWK saxby "I'm more patriotic having skirted Vietnam than Max Cleland who lost three limbs in the war there" chambliss. And then, here's David Gergen, referring back to those same people he says were hyperventilating about it (my phrase) when he said a) a second time that they should be THANKING Sandy Berger because he - repeat yet again - STOPPED THE MILLENNIUM ATTACK.

He specifically described all the uproar as just that, uproar, and much ado about nothing. He said they were going way overboard and that there's "a lot less here than meets the eye." Those were, in fact, his closing comments, and those, too, were a repeat from earlier in the interview.

He not only vouched vigorously for Sandy Berger's character, but he gave himself a little bit of a ribbing when he pointed out that this was certainly sloppy, and mentioned that he himself ought to know because he had that problem, being sloppy. He said he could understand how you have papers all over the desk and at the end you scoop 'em all up and put 'em away in your folder and then - Gergen said - he probably LOST a couple of 'em. He pointed out again that he thought this was just sloppy.

He further said that Berger was there, to begin with, because as part of what was then his anticipated testimony before the 9/11 Commission, that the commission asked him to go back and thoroughly review his notes of the Millennium threat and what was done - (to do what, class?) STOP THE ATTACK. So he was carrying out instructions he'd been given from the panel.

AND - Gergen also pointed out, repeatedly, that these were copies. COPIES. C-O-P-I-E-S of stuff that is STILL in the National Archives, stuff that was ALL seen by the 9/11 Commission, and ALL made available, and all still there, now. Gergen said there was NEVER anything out of any of this that was kept back from, or hidden from, or disallowed to the 9/11 Commission, and that they'd seen everything there. This, he said, and the missing papers, were copies of stuff that the commission absolutely did get to see. So basically no damage done - GERGEN SAID.

As for Aaron Brown, he introduced Gergen as somebody who ought to know, having advised four presidents, Nixon, Reagan, bush 1 and Clinton. The CLEAR inference here was that this, like with Richard Clarke, presents a picture of someone who is very non-partisan, having worked for both camps, and presidents of both parties.

So, all in all, I thought it was rather even-handed, even excellent for Sandy Berger. David Gergen was really definite about these things. No hemming and hawing and parsing his words and grasping about, verbally, for "a way to put this" that would shade it with other meanings in any way. He was very straightforward, and the republi-CONS probably hate his guts this evening. Probably revoked his VIP pass to their convention next month. EVERYTHING David Gergen said HURT their case. EVERYTHING. If Sandy Berger's attorney was at trial about this, he'd have David Gergen as his star witness.

---------------


Sorry for the length, but these are GREAT Talking Points if you want to write a letter to the editor, or to your UNfavorite TV reporter or anchor or spin doctor. EXTREMELY valuable and useful. For TWO reasons:
1) It reinforces the good about Sandy Berger smack in the face of these would-be terrorist experts. Gergen REPEATED "HE STOPPED THE ATTACK" maybe four or five times during those few interview minutes. He must have thought that, alone, was a HUGELY significant point, about which people NEED TO BE reminded.
2) It turns the glare back on the republi-CONS - in this time when we're waiting for the 9/11 Commission that - try as they might to deflect the blame from THIS White House - will still show that THIS White House at least SHARES the blame. AND it provides a wickedly good opportunity to remind about the PLAME outing, and how - ANY WAY YOU SLICE IT - that outing of an undercover CIA operative IS a crime. It IS a violation of law. It IS a blow to our national security. And it goes STRAIGHT TO THEIR FRONT DOOR. Let them try to pawn THAT one off on Berger and Clinton.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #212
222. Thanks CALIMARY-Gergen is a republican with integrity-and
isn't he the editor Of US News & World Report ?

MMMM - that's a good place for Letter to the Editor to go.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
102. Is McLaughlin in Plame's camp or the other?
What do you make of acting CIA Director John McLaughlin? On one hand, I'm not sure what to make of his stand against the 9/11 Commission's recommendation that an intelligence czar be created. Does he really trust Homeland Security to be the bridge between the CIA and FBI?

But on the other hand, I admire the fact that he has done more sit-down interviews for the press than any other CIA Director in recent memory. Certainly his stand against Bush pushing a link between Iran and 9/11 (now why does that sound familiar?) makes him appear to be trustworthy.

I'm thinking of a post I believe H20 Man made where he said the CIA was split into two camps. Obviously Plame's activities have her in the camp that the White House/Pentagon opposes. Which camp is McLaughlin in? Bush's urgency to have him replaced with someone like Goss makes me think he's on Plame's side.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #102
106. RP-yes but neither McLoughlin or Plame can ever make what they know
public...maybe that's why the criminal charges are coming through
France.

There's so much intrigue which the intel agencies play inside and
outside their agencies how could we ever figure out what they're up to?

RP - can you find the post H20 made on the CIA two camps and
repost it?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #106
107. " Certainly his stand against *ush pushing a link between Iran and 9/11"
looks like dimson is trying to go to war again before the elections
for political reasons, thinking we wont dare vote him out if he has
another war going.

This is a madman.

But they said that about Hitler too, and look how much harm he caused before he was finally stopped. Estimates of deaths go
from 13 million to 18 million.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. ALERT Wilson on Lehrer now - and Senator calling him liar.
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 05:54 PM by Pallas180
just caught the end. Anybody see the whole thing?

Boy the dimson spin and destroy machine is in full swing.
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #108
111. It's just about to come on here, I'll
post my impressions!

With all this and the Berger non-story something must be up. Ind I'm not sure I agree that it's to deflect attention from the 911 report. Remember, it is only half the repore "the Reptilian side." The whole report will be more damning but won't be released until after the election. They wanted it to be unanimous so they waited on the parts that would be damaging to Bush.

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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. One thing is sure,
there is a lot of smoke and mirrors for a reason. Maybe the Plame thing is about to break.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #111
117. My Thinking Was About the Report
that will be released Thursday by the 9/11 commission. But the Berger thing could be attributed to any number of motives.
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #108
114. No Proof, no facts.
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 07:05 PM by kohodog
presented by Bond. All hearsay.

Wilson rebuts by saying that the Senate Intell, US Intell said soon after Wilson's OpEd that they Brit Intell was weak and shouldn't have been referenced.

Bond: Wilson's report didn't change any analysists' opinions, in fact it enhanced it.

BS.

Wilson's rebuttal was great...explained that the meeting in question didn't mention yellow cake.

Bond "They had a meeting and the PM assumed that it would be about yellowcake" So it must have been he implied. Therefore Wilson owes the admin an appology.

Wilson: Senior CIA officials didn't think there was enough evidence for it to be credible."

Bond "All the PResident had to go on was the information given to him." Guess he's off the hook!!!

OK so Bond says : (the real problem) is that Bush is being called a liar. HaHaHa

Now he refutes the "she recommended him" bs. He seemed to stert to go to the issue being Novak outing Plame, but the segment ended...

But ultimately they say nothing and only cause people who aren't following it to think that there are two sides and maybe it's not a big deal.

But why would they be seeking yellow cake if they han no way to extract weapon's grade Uranium? The whole thing may have seemed plausible when Condi and Cheney were warning of imminent mushroom clouds, but in the context of what we know now it is obvious that they had no use for it. (I must say, having done the Duck and Hide in grade school, the mushroom cloud stuff gave me some pause).

But that's what they do...lie and create fear to distract and manipulate. Those of us who see thruogh it must refute them and speak up.

I'm not a transcriber so I hope this is fairly accurate.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #114
120. KOHO-member that, old version of plastic & duct tape - we had drills
as school children where you had to hide under your desk as if that was going to stop you from being demolecularized from an atom bomb.


If you think about it, it's the same thing as sealing your windows
with plastic and duct tape, as if it's going to protect you from
poisonous gas or fallout.

Homeland Security is smoke and mirrors and apparently alwasy has been just baloney to give the sheeple some kind of sense of security.

What a lousy thing to do to us as kids. You reminded me. Why and
what purpose was it for. Ridiculous.
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #120
123. Scare me once, shame on me
Scare me twice? I don't think so!

Duck and cover = get under the desk, hold your ankles and kiss your ass good bye.

Maybe we haven't gone back far enough in our research on OWG. It started way before Kennedy.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #123
139. KOHO 1954 Bildeberg then Trilateral Commission -
a lil googling is a wonderful thing.
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #139
142. ok, the name will probably change again soon....
Trilateral Commission was outed in the 70's or maybe earlier by John Birch types. I never took it too seriously and still have a hard time acceping the concept of planned world domination.

That may be where we're headed, but I think more likley by the ignorance, greed and short-sightedness of corporate and political leaders.

Corporations have one agenda...by law...profits. They have no allegiance to Country or individual workers (CEO'S are expendible too), so the Hydra lives...how can we stop it?

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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #107
124. That explains the nightmare I had Saturday.
dimson's approval ratings always shoot up every time he starts a war. How could the October Surprise not involve an act of war? Finding OBL just won't cut it, especially if Plame indictments come out before the election.

This is the same kind of media build-up that happened in August of 2002 before the IWR vote in October on Iraq. With another 4 years on the line, do you think dimson would refrain from lying us into war again? I think not.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #106
116. I hope I didn't misquote H20 Man.
Here's the post I found:

58. I've also "hinted" a few things ....

Edited on Sun Jul-18-04 07:56 PM by H2O Man
that I'll hint at again.

The CIA is compartmentalized. In his wonderful book, Wilson notes (pg 8) that the DDI's job is "to analyze the millions of bits of data the US government receives daily. Like researchers everywhere, the analysts are a close-knit group of experts in a cloistered world of paper and computers, working side by side in windowless cubicles. Their exposure to real life, as it goes on every day out in the field, is limited. They don't often come into contact with the subjects of their study or have the chance to walk the ground, smell the smells, and immerse themselves in the habits and mores of the cultures from which this information is steadily being gleaned."

The DDI relies upon the information of many sources. Two that we are interested in are (1) operatives, who work under deep cover; and (2) contacts, who may have other jobs, but who are used when needed to investigate specific cases, or placed in potentially sensitive places to monitor and perhaps manipulate.

If we examine each group, we can say that in Group 1, Valerie Plame is an example of someone working at the highest level of deep cover. You may note that People magazine has yet to have a "100 Sexiest CIA Operatives" edition, perhaps due to the fact these people, like Plame, work on a level NOT KNOWN TO THEIR FAMILY, FRIENDS, AND NEIGHBORS.

Group 2, part one includes people who work at our foreign embassies. I have quoted Malcolm X numerous times; he used to speak of how the African Nations knew that all US embassy personel passed information on to CI. Group 2, part 2 includes contacts at every major media, and on every college/university in the United States.

If DDI were to hope to bring a retired contact back for one more important job in their area of expertise, because they do not have the ability to make direct contact, they often use an operative as a resource.



So the two groups he speaks of in this post are not the "camps" I described in my post. Maybe there is another post I'm having trouble finding. When you read this H20 Man, let me know if what I'm seeing as a split within the CIA is accurate.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #116
118. No, that's not my point......
In my opinion, the CIA as an agency has shouldered the blame for a number of administration policy failures. Often when an agency is viciously attacked, and blamed for errors they do not "own," it creates great cohesion.

My thoughts in writing that post was, however, more simple. There is a frenzied attack on Wilson that states his wife got him the Niger "job." She didn't. Due to the structure of the Agency, she simply couldn't have.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #118
122. Good Evening H20. They're really doing a number on Wilson and
now Berger.

What do you suppose they're trying to distract from?
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #118
125. H20, Hello
On the cohesion thought you are absolutely right. When someone takes the fall for something they didn't do, it creates a positive impression from the others around who feel that the heat will also be deflected from them. It enables them. Tenet did a great dis-service to the Country by going silently into the night. He can redeem himself with a great testimony or book though, so maybe my criticism is premature.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #118
129. OK GANG - Let's start over . WHY are they attacking Sandy Berger?
H20 taught us to ask why?

Usually people are taught to follow the money.

but H20 says ask WHY?

we've been very very successful with it so far.

WHAT does Sandy Berger know that they want to destroy him?

WHY?
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #129
131. He was researching his
papers he had done for Clinton concerning the millenium plot to give to the 9/11 commission. Is there something there that pertains to the Bush administration?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #131
135. Schraby - that could be. They might think he discovered
something in those papers that makes them look bad.

Those papers are from the Clinton administration.



what could be in the Clinton Administration papers that would
hurt them?
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #129
133. Does Berger Knows something about the 911 warnings pre-911?
Just asking. It seems like a) he had info that was ignored durjng the transition to the * admin; b) he is being villified because he brought copies (not originals) out and this is a convient time to distract the populous from the real issues.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. The 9/11 commission
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 10:28 PM by shraby
will undoubtedly cover what the Clinton admin. gave to the Bush admin. in the handover. Maybe the flap is to discredit what Berger will say was handed over..that he jiggered the info when he took some of it home.

What was the name of the guy who was caught? Anybody remember?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #134
137. Shraby - I think you also have hit something there:

"will undoubtedly cover what the Clinton admin. gave to the Bush admin. in the handover."


they're discreding him now becasuse of something he has sworn to
to the 9/11 commission which is about to come out?
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Mike Niendorff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #134
157. BINGO.

I think you just hit it right on the head.

This is a pre-emptive strike against the credibility of the Clinton national security team.

And with the 9/11 Commission's report due out any day now, I *wonder* why they'd suddenly find it so important that they do this? So important, in fact, that they've got Ashcroft setting up an "ongoing investigation" and the whole RW echo-chamber cranked up to eleven.

Anyone else suddenly becoming really interested in finding out what they're so worried about?


MDN

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #133
136. KOHO - that is also a good one :
a) he had info that was ignored durjng the transition to the * admin;

what could that have been?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #136
140. Now it is said the Berger investigation has quietly been going
on since October and nothing was found. Nor was it to be
front page news.

But someone decided to make it front page news two days
before the 9/11 report is released.

So what did Sandy say that has them discrediting him?

And we can assume "they" got a copy of the report a week or
two ago....timing is everything isn't it.



WHY else would they be after Sandy?

What else is in the news bigtime ?
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #140
141. Would it be about
the millenium plot or the Cole incident? (that's the name of the ship that had a hole put in it, isn't it?

I think some of the perps of the Cole were involved in 9/11, if I remember. Maybe criticism of Bush admin. for not catching the Cole perps?
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #140
144. Berger stuff was checked out in 2003
Why drag it out now? I think another way to muddle people's minds so when indictments come out in the Plame case it will seem so ho hum to most people.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #144
155. Also could be to detract from
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 11:52 PM by shraby
the fact that they didn't act on any of the info that the Clinton admin. turned over to them. By discrediting Berger maybe they feel they can discredit the info.

Kill the messenger type of thing.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #155
156. There is a transcript of Wolf Blitzer
interviewing Berger's attorney here:

<http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0407/20/wbr.01.html >

Guess it's a political thing to take attention off the 9/11 report..or so he says.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #118
187. Thanks for clarifying that.
The cohesion that you speak of explains McLaughlin's behavior on all the aspects I mentioned. I'm really not that knowledgeable about all the intricacies of the CIA, but I worry about "moles" within the agency responsible for spreading Bushit lies that the misadministration uses to lay blame at the CIA's feet for the policy blunders of dimson. But I agree with you that these attacks, combined with the twin resignations of Tenet and Pavitt, has made CIA leadership much tighter.

I understand more about the agency now after re-reading your post. There is a profound difference between praising your husband's knowledge and abilities and hiring him for a job. The media doesn't seem to get it.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
113. Krugman's Version:The Manchurian Candidate changed to Arabian Candidate

July 20, 2004
OP-ED COLUMNIST
The Arabian Candidate
By PAUL KRUGMAN

n the original version of "The Manchurian Candidate," Senator John Iselin, whom Chinese agents are plotting to put in the White House, is a right-wing demagogue modeled on Senator Joseph McCarthy. As Roger Ebert wrote, the plan is to "use anticommunist hysteria as a cover for a communist takeover."

-snip-

So let's imagine an update - not the remake with Denzel Washington, which I haven't seen, but my own version. This time the enemies would be Islamic fanatics, who install as their puppet president a demagogue who poses as the nation's defender against terrorist evildoers.

The Arabian candidate wouldn't openly help terrorists. Instead, he would serve their cause while pretending to be their enemy.

After an attack, he would strike back at the terrorist base, a necessary action to preserve his image of toughness, but botch the follow-up, allowing the terrorist leaders to escape. Once the public's attention shifted, he would systematically squander the military victory: committing too few soldiers, reneging on promises of economic aid. Soon, warlords would once again rule most of the country, the heroin trade would be booming, and terrorist allies would make a comeback.

Meanwhile, he would lead America into a war against a country that posed no imminent threat. He would insinuate, without saying anything literally false, that it was somehow responsible for the terrorist attack. This unnecessary war would alienate our allies and tie down a large part of our military. At the same time, the Arabian candidate would neglect the pursuit of those who attacked us, and do nothing about regimes that really shelter anti-American terrorists and really are building nuclear weapons.

Again, he would take care to squander a military victory. The Arabian candidate and his co-conspirators would block all planning for the war's aftermath; they would arrange for our army to allow looters to destroy much of the country's infrastructure. Then they would disband the defeated regime's army, turning hundreds of thousands of trained soldiers into disgruntled potential insurgents.

After this it would be easy to sabotage the occupied country's reconstruction, simply by failing to spend aid funds or rein in cronyism and corruption. Power outages, overflowing sewage and unemployment would swell the ranks of our enemies.

Who knows? The Arabian candidate might even be able to deprive America of the moral high ground, no mean trick when our enemies are mass murderers, by creating a climate in which U.S. guards torture, humiliate and starve prisoners, most of them innocent or guilty of only petty crimes.

At home, the Arabian candidate would leave the nation vulnerable, doing almost nothing to secure ports, chemical plants and other potential targets. He would stonewall investigations into why the initial terrorist attack succeeded. And by repeatedly issuing vague terror warnings obviously timed to drown out unfavorable political news, his officials would ensure public indifference if and when a real threat is announced.

Last but not least, by blatantly exploiting the terrorist threat for personal political gain, he would undermine the nation's unity in the face of its enemies, sowing suspicion about the government's motives.

-more -

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/20/opinion/20krug.html?h ...
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RebelYell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #113
132. Pallas -
Suggested reading

http://www.natural-person.ca/pdf/Depopulation_of_a_Plan...

I don't claim to know anything about the author, and this writing is 10 years old.

It's 133 pages, but worthy of a read. Keep an open mind. If it is tinfoil, then we have nothing to worry about. If it isn't - then it will be too late when we find out it's true.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #132
138. OK. REB - I will
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 10:36 PM by Pallas180
.and get back to you
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #113
153. I know this is not the right thing to do, nevertheless




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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
143. 9/11 Panel to Cite 10 Missed Opportunities
Thanks to kskiska posted on late breaking news


The final report by the commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks details as many as 10 missed opportunities by the Bush and Clinton administrations to detect or derail the deadly terrorist hijackings, but the panel stops short of saying the attacks should have been prevented, according to government officials and others familiar with the document.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A127-2004...
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #143
147. CLINTON SAYS BERGER-DOCUMENTS FUROR IS JUST POLITICS
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #147
148. Berger is the only Congressman who cared
Many of the rest didn't even take the time to read...correct?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #148
149. "Berger was the National Security Advisor in Clinton Admin but
not a congressman as far as I know.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #149
150. Ok - Hint. Berger + Wilson
.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. How do they connect
besides they both worked under Clinton.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #152
154. Google.
Berger + Wilson
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #154
159. In Wilson's book, on page 4.....
he quotes Sandy Berger as saying that it was interesting that the Bush people had backed down on the Niger question. Considering that they had never backed down before, and did so this time so quickly, Berger noted, indicated "they must have something more important to protect."
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #159
160. Thanks H20, great pick up
And now they're attacking both Wilson and Berger with a ferocity that is astounding.

Notice how little outrage there was from these guys when Novak wrote his column. Bushes response was "It's a big administration, lots of people, I don't know if we'll ever find out who leaked it," or words to that effect.

Maybe, just maybe all this venom will have the opposite effect and bring the real issue into the light!
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #159
173. THAT H20 !!! Of course. The Admin is very vindictive - if
you all had googled you would have found the Denver Post plus other
papers which printed parts of Wilson's book with that quotation.


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scottxyz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #159
280. Very interesting catch, H2O
Edited on Thu Jul-22-04 12:33 AM by scottxyz
It is true that the Bushies never do back down on anything.

Almost never. But they DID back down pretty quick on Iraq-Niger.

What do they know that Bill Safire doesn't??

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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #149
158. Ooops, thanks,, my bad (eom)
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #143
192. Hamilton and Kean briefing Rice on panel's findings.
Considering that Kerrey pretty much called her a liar to her face and Ben-Veniste exposed her BS over the "historical documents" titled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike Inside US" while she was being questioned by the Commission, is it possible that perhaps all the sound and fury signifying nothing over Berger is intended to distract from the condemnation Rice will be facing from the 9/11 Commission?

This may be a pipe dream, but since Rice was under oath, could she possibly be charged with perjury?
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
161. The Real Reason they are attacking Berger and Wilson is simple...
Both of these men are scheduled to be Kerry's foreign policy advisers.

These attacks are an indirect assault on Kerry.

The undermining of the Kerry Presidency has begun!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #161
162. I agree fully.....
and would add that because the administration doesn't want to debate issues, they must attempt to take the focus off those issues and engage in attacks on people's character. It's not unlike their attacks on Kerry for his service in Vietnam .... which seems ridiculous, because Kerry was a war hero, and bush was clearly not. But for several days, the media cooperated with the charade.... and with stern face and serious voice questioned if Kerry was hiding something in regard to his military service. I fully expect that Fox News will have Oliver North expressing his outrage on this case of missing documents.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #162
163. Dems are "reactionary" and they play into this scenario
time and time again..

Clinton is right...it's all political and directed at the Kerry Campaign. The timing has been perfectly orchestrated to cast a pall or a meager attempt to take the wind out of the enthusiasm of Kerry's nomination and undermine his forthcoming election.

Let it die..and start moving against them. Micromanaging the lie just give credence to their nefariousness and frankly makes us look inept..
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #163
164. Far too often,
democrats tend to "react" rather than "respond." This is a normal reaction that most people have when dealing with individuals with axis 2 personality disorders. There was a great example of how to respond on the Fox News this morning: Mario Cuomo simple blew away the three morning show folks. They wanted to keep him away from a discussion of issues; he kept his focus.

People in the democratic party could learn a lesson from him in how to remain focused upon the important issues. Another wat to view it is to compare it to putting a cat in a container (box, bag, cage, etc). The cat will use all four feet to keep from being put in the container. Personality disordered people try to put us in a container of their making. Our job is to keep from being put in .... and, in this case, the job is to not be put in their "container" of "the sky is falling - Sandy Berger threatened national security" and have a debate on if he is a Winona Ryder-like character.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #164
165. I recommend everyone watch the GRID...on Monday nights @ 9pm..
The new character Maren was duped into believing the NY subway system would be focus of an attack by terrorists.

She received a faint blush of a lead from UK Intelligence regarding forthcoming volatile attacks in Nigeria. She discounted the Nigeria lead. Instead, she followed up on the NY subway lead and sent in her FBI team to investigate. Her lead investigator, played by Dylan McDermott, accompanied by a SWAT Team were sent in to sweep an abandoned warehouse.

A rooftop sniper ambushed McDermott and shot him in the shoulder.

He was the target all along. She was set up! The subway gamut was a decoy.. a twofer! Get McDermott and bomb a cafe in Nigeria hopefully killing important American envoys..

Good Show..with a Hitchcockian flair.. predict it will be the hottest show on tv in a few weeks for mental aerobics!

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #165
167. It's fiction,isn't it?
I turned it on for about two minutes on Monday ..... but it's a fictional tv series?
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #167
168. About as fiction as real life..
The plot themes are true to life.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #168
190. I'm sure it's a wonderful program.....
and that it will have a wide appeal. My own tastes are different, and while I am fully aware that there is more than enough "fiction" in the news, etc, I tend to stick to those programs. Luckily for the general public, no stations depend upon my rather limited viewing choices.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #165
176. Tellurain, are you the agent, producer, or writer of the show? Yo
You' d be a great agent - plugging away. smile.
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RebelYell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #164
207. H2O Man......
Respectfully requesting your opinion on what is wrong with Dimson, psychologically speaking.

In my completely unprofessional opinion, I think he has serious Daddy issues, i.e., Daddy criticized him too much.

Thanks.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #162
175. AND take it a step further, bcz of "Sandy's missing documents-there is the
excuse to black out all or most of Sandy's report to the 911
commission, "becasue it came from 'Highly Classified Documents"
which are under investigation as Sandy is:

Top Secret you know - which means Sandy had proof of written
advice to the dimson administration concerning obl and attacks
in the near.

Some of the documents they claim are missing are 60 pages long.
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #161
171. Also check out David Korn's take
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
166. I just heard Daschle mention the Plame case on the Senate floor
along with a bunch of other stuff. It was actually a pretty good speech, very short on passion though I have to say. But my reason for posting this is: why when this issue is brought up by Democrats do they not even mention the fact that Plame's job was tracking the proliferation of WMD? This seems key to me, but I don't think I've ever heard this attached to the incident when mentioned by Democratic politicians. I emailed a bunch of them around the time it first happened and never heard a thing back regrading this from any of them. I emailed Schumer to thank him for pushing and mentioned the WMD thing. Not that I expect emails from me to make a damn bit of difference but it just seems like they're not making the most of this. Very few Democrats know how to fight. If this had been done by a Democrat it would be huge and Republican politicians would be foaming at the mouth over it but our boys and girls play nice.

Mention the freaking WMD aspect to this for crying out loud! It exposes the fact that they never gave a shit about WMD to begin with. The fact that they would out her and destroy a CIA operation that had been tracking WMD, the very thing they profess to care so deeply about is important! It's the KEY! Why? Why?
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #166
169. No, the only point they should mention is..WHO REVEALED her identity..
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 09:55 AM by Tellurian
The commission of a felony should be the ONLY focus..
They can't fault Wilson on that!
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #169
170. The Democrats don't know who revealed her identity
Only the White House knows that answer. I'm talking about how Democrats should be framing this issue.

In my opinion the fact that the White House outed a deep cover CIA agent and destroyed an operation that may have taken decades to build, who's main goal was the tracking of WMD, exposes them as liars.

They invaded a country because they said they were concerned about WMD. The fact that they can so easily destroy an organization that is set up to help protect the world from WMD getting into the wrong hands exposes that lie. That needs to be included when they speak about the Plame outing.

They need to remember who they're talking to. When they talk about this on the Senate floor or on the cable news shows they should be directing their words to Americans who are concerned with our nation's security. They're missing a key point that would cause a lot of average American's to go "hey, wait a minute" It could turn on a lot of light bulbs.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #170
172. That IS how they should be framing the issue..
The only question Democrats should be asking is WHO leaked Plane's identity..and STOP defending an unprovable negative.
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #172
174. Yes but
You're right that that should be the focus but it should be framed this way:

"We need to know the identity of the White House officials who exposed and have covered up the exposure of a deep cover CIA agent and destroyed a CIA operation charged with monitoring the proliferation of WMD. It's a felony and it's an act that borders on treason that has seriously jeopardized our nation's security"


I'm telling you, the WMD aspect of this is KEY to opening the eyes of average American's to the seriousness of this and to what truly happened.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #174
179. HOOTIE -agreed-it's the key to removing Darth Vader which is
most important.

He has to be gone before Dimson can be removed.

More than jailing the treasonous underlings rests on this.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #174
180. I know what your saying...
It's the meme that resonates with people. And Wilson has every right in the World to demand an answer followed up by: "Why isn't anyone doing anything about this?"

analogy..."ya gotta GET to the table before you can eat!"

The WMD issue will follow in the normal course of events when it goes to Trial!
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #170
181. HOOTIE - you are HOT today! Right on the money. & those words
are exactly what you should call up Schumer and Durbin
and good guys and tell them. Call them or Fax them exactly what
you said.

The Fax numbers are on the top of this thread, and phone numbers
or call up the free number and call the Senator's office and ask
for his/her fax number.

When you get it, please post if for us too. Thanks to you Hootie.



"They invaded a country because they said they were concerned about WMD. The fact that they can so easily destroy an organization that is set up to help protect the world from WMD getting into the wrong hands exposes that lie. That needs to be included when they speak about the Plame outing.

They need to remember who they're talking to. When they talk about this on the Senate floor or on the cable news shows they should be directing their words to Americans who are concerned with our nation's security. They're missing a key point that would cause a lot of average American's to go "hey, wait a minute" It could turn on a lot of light bulbs."
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #166
177. HOOTIE - fax your letter, or call up -they dont seem to read emails, they
just count the number that came in on an issue,is my suspicion.

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #177
178. Then again, they may not be able to mention Plame's CIA assignment
?
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #178
198. But if Joe Klein can say it in Time, why cant it be mentioned in Congress?
They don't have to be to specific about it, just in the terms that Joe Klein framed it.

Of course, Congress would have to grow a spine to do that.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #198
199. A one liner is not framing the debate..
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 01:50 PM by Tellurian
Thats all it was in the cbs report...one sentence with no verifiable links.

And if Congress wants proof of the statement?

Then what? You can't hang your hat on cobwebs. Making idle assertions, is worse than remaining silent. In the end, making you look foolish.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #199
204. Tellurian, I'm not talking about "framing" the debate.
Obviously the most important question in the search for legal justice is "Who leaked Valerie Plame's name?" The answer to this question will hopefully find resolution in a court of law, but it doesn't address the question of motive. Joe Klein's article in Time (I'm not sure what cbs report you're referring to) addresses this because he talks in general terms about WHAT the leakers were exposing!

Idle assertions? Joe Klein has his sources, which he mentions in the article as being from the intelligence community. If his sources are bad, then Joe Klein ends up looking foolish, not the Congressperson who quotes Time magazine.

So I agree with you that the focus of Congress should be "Who leaked Valerie Plame?" But not to address the question of motive at all would be a tremendous oversight. If Congress wants proof, they can treat Joe Klein the same way they treat Novakula. The difference being that Klein would be protecting his sources to keep them secure, Novakula protects his to keep them from prison.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,11010...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #204
206. The issues that Klein raised....
and there were several .... seem more important than a fictional tv series.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #206
211. Klein's issues were important,
but a t.v. series is what people watch and understand due to our t.v. culture. Note that the majority of people get their news spoon-fed to them and have been acclimated to believing the news..no matter how skewed it is today. More watch than read and that's the sad truth.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #211
219. Again, my friend:
What made this series of threads catch peoples' attention? What made them think differently than they thought before? You said it an hour ago, and it hasn't changed in 60 minutes.

Ecclesates is right: there is time time to keep silent, and a time to speak. But Michael Moore's F 9-11, with the scene with the Black Caucus representatives asking even one senator to talk, was powerful evidence that Martin Luther King was correct when he said that there comes a time when silence is betrayal.

A good teacher would never tell a child not to raise their hand and participate in the search for an effort, because they may be wrong, and that would be humiliating.

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #211
259. Has anyone thought "The Grid" could be more fear propaganda put out by Rum
Rummy's Office of Special Operations? They also mentioned
competing with "liberal" Hollywood.

Good propraganda to scare people into begging their government for
Kissinger's "more security - we'll trade our liberties for more
security"

Buhsit.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #204
227. Here is a quote of Joe Kleins without any references to intel into the
assertion of Plame and a sting operation.

The entire paragraph:

"Michael Moore couldn't have said it any better and this book was vetted by CIA censors. In fact, the views of Anonymous are an accurate reflection of the opinions I've heard from multiple intelligence sources.

The spooks seem to believe that outgoing CIA Director George Tenet was strong-armed by Cheney and Rumsfeld into overassessing Iraq's WMD capacity. This may or may not be true, but it is the conventional wisdom in the intelligence community.

"Furthermore, there is intense anger over the White House's revealing the identity of Plame, who may have been active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components.

Plame was outed in a White House attempt to discredit the finding of her husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, that there was no evidence that Iraq tried to buy yellowcake uranium from Niger. "Only a very high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge that Plame was on the payroll" of the CIA, an intelligence source told me."

I think you're reading too much into Klein's statement..he has no links to his one liner statement and also fails to mention any sources, not even the intelligence community...all he's saying is,.. "intense anger over the actions of the WH...no mention of a source of the info for the sting operation comment!"

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #227
233. We need to be accurate:
That was one paragraph. It starts with four sentences regarding the intelligence community. In fact, specifically "the conventional wisdom in the intelligence community." Then two sentences about Plame, which include the phrase about the "sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components." And the final sentence is the reference to what an intelligence source told him.

It's actually intended to be read as a paragraph.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #233
244. Exactly!
Does it make sense that Klein would write a paragraph pertaining to information from the intelligence community and then insert a sentence based purely on his own personal speculation?

Is this the typical action of a credible journalist?

If I am truly "reading too much into Klein's statement", where else would the "intense anger" be coming from? Who else would have the motive to harbor such "intense anger", if not the intelligence community?

I know! It's me! I'm intensely angry! I must be the source!

Oh hell, H20 Man, let's just drop this whole "sting operation" angle. It's not bearing any fruit, is it? I mean unless you uncover an article that has every sentence sourced or indexed with footnotes, it's just not worth investigating.

;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #244
247. Another important point:
Klein writes: "Two other serious, surreptitious -- and quite possibly unprecedented -- battles are going on: the intelligence community is at war with the White House, and the uniformed military is at war with the civilian leaders of the Pentagon."

Now, it is true that if you separate all 36 words into individual categories, or blend them with an egg beater on a medium-to-high rate for two hours , they no longer say what they say when you read them as a sentence. But our science should not be scatology, for there are already republicans skilled at turning hard facts into soft shit.

Klein's article stands on its own.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #244
248. Here is the WHOLE paragraph as printed &link to Klein's excellent article.
Michael Moore couldn't have said it any better and this book was vetted by CIA censors. In fact, the views of Anonymous are an accurate reflection of the opinions I've heard from multiple intelligence sources. The spooks seem to believe that outgoing CIA Director George Tenet was strong-armed by Cheney and Rumsfeld into overassessing Iraq's WMD capacity. This may or may not be true, but it is the conventional wisdom in the intelligence community. Furthermore, there is intense anger over the White House's revealing the identity of Plame, who may have been active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components. Plame was outed in a White House attempt to discredit the finding of her husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, that there was no evidence that Iraq tried to buy yellowcake uranium from Niger. "Only a very high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge that Plame was on the payroll" of the CIA, an intelligence source told me.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,11010...

Let's concentrate on this again, Plame threaders! This is the key to unlocking the answer to the question: WHY?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #227
260. Right. Joe Klein is going to put in print that CIA Agent Jones told him th
the inside scoop of all that is going on inside the CIA
including state secrets , so that Agent Jones can go to
jail for the rest of his life for revealing secrets.

Absolutely. I agree. Excellent thinking. Joe Klein and every
reporter should put into print the name of the leakers.

NOT
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #204
258. ROBERT-That is good enough to be an opening/closing argument in Court!
You go guy.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #177
182. Has anybody had any responses to their letters
yet? I remember one poster had a question from one of the contacts but I haven't read anything else. I've sent letters and faxes to several journalists, senators and reps but no response yet. After witnessing the behavior of Sen. Bond on the senate floor today, I am sickened with the accusations now being made that if you question activities or certain people, you are anti-semitic and are out for jihad. We have reached a new level of viciousness and hatred from the other side, I didn't think that possible.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #182
184. I think that
it is important that we keep writing letters. In doing so, we are taking part in the democratic process. We are exercising those things outlined in the Bill of Rights. And we are taking part in an effort to find the truth about how -- and why -- the White House exposed Plame.

We are only responsible for our own actions. We can, for example, write letters that express the truth to our elected officials and others in similar positions. But we can not take responsibility for if they act on it or not. That falls fully in their lap.

It's important that we continue with our efforts. I think that when we reach the ealier-stated goal of having 100 DUers write the letters, we will get some results.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #184
188. Thanks, H20 for your encouragement
and wisdom, you give us hope in the middle of this insanity. I am hoping the ongoing "attempted" slaughter of Wilson's credibility is a direct result of upcoming indictments. The mainstream media continues to ignore the crimes committed by exposing the identity of a CIA operative, it's so frustrating to watch.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #188
200. I think it's important to
focus on what made this series of threads different than the usual DU thread. What actually sparked the intense interest in this discussion? There are numerous other topics with insightful comments and high-quality research on this forum. And, while not mistaking the sheer size of this for proof of its value .... there has been a consistently high level of discussion here.

What makes this, then, of a different level of interest and participation, than the many other Wilson/Plame threads?

When we identify that, perhaps we will know the "key" to spurring on similar interest with other groups and individuals.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #200
205. It's possibly because we tried to
answer the "why" of the matter, instead of just griping about the status quo and the other party. We tried to dig deeper into the meaning of what happened. Like the 9/11 commission, we looked at many, many sources from all directions, compared what they were saying to see if there were consistencies or underlying facts that weren't apparent if looking at one or two sources.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #205
215. I agree completely.
Everytime in the past when someone posted a thread on the Plame scandal, I would read it and come across a litany of names of possible suspects. Libbey, Hannah, Abrams, Rove and, of course, Cheney. Nice parlor game, to paraphrase X in JFK.

But when we ask the question "why", we are addressing the issue of motive. If we can discover the reasons why Plame was outed, we will have a clearer picture of the scope of the crime.

So thank you shraby, for starting this and thank you H20 Man, for "framing" the debate on this thread. I don't think I'm exaggerating in saying the world may very well become a better place because of your actions.

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #215
236. Perhaps we need to get back on track with that .....
I believe that this is the idea that will catch fire. This is what caught peoples' attention. While not everyone agrees with this idea, that is fine .... no one should feel pressured on here to say anything they don't believe. Likewise, no one should should try to pressure others not to say what they believe. But when we look at it closely, it's as if the idea that there was something else involved in the exposing of Plame was like the sun coming up in the morning, and casting a new light on the entire topic. And as Malcolm X was fond of saying, once that sun comes up, it's hard to stop a rooster from crowing.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #182
189. FRUSDEMINNC try sending the letters to the dems on Senate Intel
Committee and dems on Judiciary Committee and Henry Waxman.

You may not hear back, but they'll be informed and go after
these "there's no word to describe" people.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #189
194. LOL, Pallas180,
"there's no word to describe" people. I needed that laugh today after listening to the venom being spewed nonstop on the cable "news".

My first batch of letters were sent to the members of Judiciary Committee and my local reps. I am still sending letters to each senator along with a few more journalists that I added to my list. Hopefully, we won't be ignored with the number of people involved in this project.

Appreciate all your hard work, passion and commitment to help restore our democracy. This place has given me hope at my weakest moments, thanks to you and all of the dedicated posters who can't sit back without trying to make a change.

One step at a time, we must make a difference.


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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #194
241. I am so proud to be a part of this group. Your level of awarenes and
intelligence, patriotism for the Real America and caring would make anyone proud to be associated.

Thank you all.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #189
201. Here's a good 1 to send to: Robert Menendez Dem, Minority Whip
there's someone who could spread the word
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #201
202. Also The Black Caucus surely knows how to get the word out.
loved that woman who said on the floor of the House:

"You stole the election, yes, that's what I said: A Coup d'etat"

if we want to get the world's attention, the Black Caucus has no
fear. !

grin.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #202
208. The Black Caucus!
That may be our most promising route to take.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #208
210. Pallas180 ......
know you have me thinking about the NAACP ...... as a door that leads us into the Black Caucus. Hmmmm.......
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #210
262. Julian Bond. Representative Lewis. California Congresswoman whose name
escapes me right now, but when I listen to her, I applaud the
television.

YES!
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #202
209. Rep. Corrine Brown is one of my favorites!
http://www.house.gov/corrinebrown/press108/pr040715.htm

She was brilliant on the floor and the other side voted to have her words stricken from the records. I listened to some of the callers on C-Span and wanted to reach through my TV screen.


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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #202
216. Member info!
http://www.cbcfinc.org/Members.html

This has a list of members, addresses and phone numbers.

Rep. Meek has been very vocal in pursuing the torture at the prisons and not intimidated by DOD. He is a powerful speaker and doesn't seem afraid to confront the "giants".
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #216
263. Thank you so much for Black Caucus info DEM in NC
:hi:
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #263
289. No problem!
I'm sending letters to every member - I have so much respect for their willingness to speak out and demand answers. I believe they will pursue this with a passion - will also make a few phone calls today.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #182
203. My emails to
my rep. and senator have all been answered by snail mail.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #203
290. At least we know they are getting them.
I hope some of the journalists will respond soon, we have given them plenty of info to pursue.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #182
220. Joe Conason's Column in the NY Observer this week
Is about Joe Wilson....nyobserver.com
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #220
226. Also...
I mentioned Cheney and WMD components in connection with Plame when I wrote Begala. But I only mailed it (snail) last Saturday so I don't know if it could have reached him yet.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #226
231. It's old news..Halliburton was investigated, fined and well...
they're probably back doing the same business, as always..

Anyway, it was a good reminder taxpayer dollars are employing law breakers to work for the US goverment.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #226
264. ME, you've got the magic letters. Certainly it would have reached
Begala already.

Keep going. Whatever you're saying is getting attention.

Would you post your letter again?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #182
261. DEMin NC - I got four but they were the automated. No telling
if they actually read it or not.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #261
291. At least we know they are getting them.
Between the letters and emails from all of us, hopefully our chances increase with the volume.

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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
183. Wonder if Berger's documents tie Cheney/ Halliburton to 9/11 attacks???
Could it be that those Berger documents actually make the connection we've been talking about on these Plame threads? Tying Cheney & Halliburton's activities/sales to the fact that terrorists have WMDs?

I know it's a long shot, but it sure would explain why Berger AND Wilson have been under (savage) attack at the same time. That, and trying to show that the Kerry camp is staffed with people who, the neocons would like to lead people to believe, are either incompetent, dishonest or politically motivated.

I wonder if they fear a Kerry win, and the exposure of all that has gone down. Ok....I can dream, can't I???

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #183
186. Interesting theory, perhaps it's another "twofer"
Protecting Cheney/Halliburton ties with WMD proliferators at the same time they discredit two individuals who may potentially be part of President Kerry's cabinet.

It's definitely a theory worth looking into.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #186
191. RP-2fer or 3fer: 911 Comm Report, Kerry, destroy Wilson & Berger credibili
makes sense.

That's their modus operandi okay.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #191
197. Speaking of the 911 Report...
CondiLIESa is being briefed by Hamilton and Kean today on the panel's findings today. Considering how Ben-Veniste made her look like an idiot and Kerrey pretty much called her a liar to her face, is it possible that the smear job on Berger is intended to create a distraction from the condemnation Rice faces in the final report?

As I posted earlier, my pipe dream is that Rice will be charged with perjury since she was under oath. Is this possible?
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
193. A Right-Wing Smear Is Gathering Steam
sorry if this has already been posted somewhere

A Right-Wing Smear Is Gathering Steam
Ex-envoy says the GOP has targeted him and his wife.
By Joseph C. Wilson IV

LA Times today

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #193
195. Wilson on Jim Lehrer news hour last night -- transcript
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #195
196. the discussion is here:
on this thread..if anyone is interested..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #195
239. Opening of the program is a total RW snowjob before Wilson comes on.
But I have to give a huge thumbs up to Wilson. He really held his ground against that POS Bond and defended his record brilliantly. He avoided all the petty traps that Bond tried to set and focused on the truth.

Bravo, Joe!
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
213. GOP on tv announcing they will be in Boston to refute all said at Dem Conv
tion with Guiliani, and a few others...

I dont recall any other election where this was ever done.

Gee I wonder what channels are going to be carrying the
rebuttals immediately after each convention speech? duh
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #213
214. Bad timing. the 911 report coming out same time as DNC- report
will be lost in the shuffle - and the gops are going to make
sure of that.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #214
217. WAHOO Paul Begala just said Cheney did biz with Iran, Iraq & Syrria
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 03:41 PM by Pallas180
and Libya in 1996 when it was trading with the enemy....

WAHOO - and you all wonder if our letters have any effect!!

Break out the grape juice!!

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #217
218. Begala named Cheney as trading with the enemy in 1996
Syrria, Iran, and Iraq and Libya.....

WAHOO

WAHOO

I call that a success, Think Tank!
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #218
228. Old news...they paid a fine and thats it...
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #228
230. Well we don't think it's old news.We think it's very current news & crimin
as you know, so your calling it old news is very strange
since it is the basis of the reason we believe Cheney had
Plame outed.

Now why would you try to discourage us from that theory Tellurian?

I find that very odd.

And I also don't think the IAEI thinks it's old news, or the French
find it old news, ......

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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #230
232. It's common knowledge and can be easily googled..
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 05:18 PM by Tellurian
It was put to bed in 96' and they were back in business the next day..

The important thing is to find the proof. Proof=Truth...

If the French have anything, why aren't they handing it over to investigators?

Don't be so paranoid, Pallas.. We're all on the same side. Each of us go about doing our business in different ways...patience, my friend, patience!

remember...Paranoia will destroya!
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #232
234. Tellurian Sweety, you are not my friend & I am not the paranoid, dear.
And frankly, I do wonder if we are all on the same side.

We here on this thread have worked very hard, almost as a
unit, and supported each other.

Your purpose appears to be un- support

We know damn well it's all on the internet. But no one other
than H20 and us at his direction have put it all together.

If your so blanking smart, how come you didnt put it together
and start a thread that has lasted for 4000 posts on the subject?.


You don't build up or add information, you seem to tear it down
or try to get us off certain paths
, for what purpose, I can only
guess......but frankly, Scarlet, I for one don't appreciate it.

Don't start callin names Sweety, because I'm sure at this point, I can outdo you.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #234
235. I believe thats for the experts to decide... I can wait..
and thanks for the tip!

You seem to get a bit cranky almost religiously at the 200 post mark..

nap time- again..
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #235
242. While it's true that we are not part of the federal grand jury.....
that is investigating the case, we are doing something that is equally important. We are exercising the powers granted to us by the Bill of Rights.

Robert Kennedy said that "In a democratic society law is the form which free (people) give to justice. The glory of justice and the majesty of law are created not just by the Constitution -- nor by the courts -- nor by the officers of the law -- nor by the lawyers -- but by the men and women that constitutue our society -- who ar the protectors of the laws as they are themselves protected by the law." (Make Gentle the Life of this World; M T Kennedy, 1998; pg 105)

Perhaps we need to take this issue out of the private conversations of the insular world of self-proclaimed experts, and put it smack-dab into the real world, and the lives of those real people that Robert Kennedy spoke of. We have an election coming up. It's time for public education, voter registration, and grass roots participation. Don't sit back like a bump on a log waiting for some expert to grant democracy to you. It doesn't happen that way, except on television shows. Democracy is something you practice.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #242
243. What I'm talking about has nothing to do with the grand jury..
research and verifiable information has to come back from the field before any assertions with teeth can be made.

Theres still hope.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #243
245. That depends upon one's goal.
Many people are content to sit patiently and wait for results. That's fine. Those people certainly have that right. They can watch GRID or do any other thing that meets their needs.

Other people think and believe differently. And that's fine, too. These people believe in exercising their rights. They do things outlined in the Bill of Rights to meet their needs.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #245
246. If one is going to make a criminal assertion...
One has to have proof. It's really that simple.

If it can't be produced instantaneously to your satisfaction(?) well then, it's your problem to deal with. If one is going to make an assertion that can potentially Impeach people in high government...one has to have iron clad proof. There are occasions where it could takes months to verify. But you don't go hunting and expect to succeed unless all your ducks are in a row.

Idle assertions without verifiable evidence is blowing smoke..and a waste of everyone's time.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #246
249. If you were old enough to remember Watergate,
you would know how silly that sounds!
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #249
252. I'm not, and *I* know how silly that sounds!
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 07:40 PM by kgfnally
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #246
251. Two questions for you, Tell
1) Who had access to the information that Plame was a CIA agent?

2) Did that person or persons have the legal right to disseminate that information?

If the answer to 2) is no, then a crime was committed... a major one.

It's very simple, really.

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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #251
253. The Plame investigation is not the issue in dispute.
we're talking about something different entirely, kgfnally.

Not really at liberty to discuss at this time. I've said all I'm going to say for now...no disrespect intended..
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #253
255. I know
and I would say that, even if there was "nothing there," as you say, a second look into Cheney's dealings back then is warranted. Remember, he's been involved in ME affairs a very long time, both as the Secretary of Defense (!) AND Halliburton's CEO.

This ALL ties together. That's what I'm trying to say.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #253
266. Oooo big secrets"not at liberty"are we graced by a visitor from the FIB?
That sounds very self important Tellurian.

Are we to be impressed or wonder why you're picking our brains?
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #245
250. There are some things we have no choice in
but to sit by and wait for results and there are some things we can get active about. We have done both here. We just need to keep the pressure on while the results of other things come in..like the Plame indictments. We can make sure the right questions are asked in the media and in congress, at least try to.
So...whatcha waiting for? Get the pens moving and the phones working.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #250
254. There are peripheral issues involved here.
I've been following this from Thread #1. I check in daily. What I've seen is chilling, to understate.

We have uncovered multiple leads here, but the overall focus has always been "The Outing of Valerie Plame" (good book title!). We've beaten this horse, which is not yet dead, and will continue beating- I think these threads are out of anyone's hands for now.

We simply must continue. We have no choice in the matter.

I think perhaps we should, while we wait for the results of the grand jury investigation, examine the peripherals to this Event- and I use a capital 'E' for a reason. This could be the fulcrum upon which the balance swings, as it were. A point in history, if you will.

I mentioned that we have no choice. I say this in reference to an analogy:

Two hundred people decide to go to a park across the street from a library to discuss an issue. They all take notes, or notes are taken by machine and periodically distributed to them.

Occasionally, one or two or six or fifteen decide to cross the street and dig in the library's archives. They come back with notes, which are also distributed among the group.

Can you spell think tank?

That's what we've done here. We are exercising our 1A rights in a way I've rarely, if ever, seen- serious research and discussion among a large, all-volunteer group with a common goal. Our Founders would be proud.

We can't stop... we just can't, either by our sense of duty, our sense of truth, or our sense of justice. Duty to our country, truth under our Creator, justice under law... this is why we work here.

I'll get off my soapbox now; I only wanted to illustrate the why of this discussion's importance.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #254
265. Yes, kgfnally...a bit of good news...not all, but heading in the right
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 09:00 PM by Tellurian
direction..

An investigation is already underway..if the ties can be made solid to Plame..then there is hope. That is, if nobody jinxes it with premature exaltations..


http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.co...

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #265
268. WAHOO "Halliburton admits to criminal probe on Iran July 20 2004"
Senator Lautenberg!
That's where some of our letters should be going so he can put
it together.

Isn't that funny? the administration is talking about war on Iran
while Darth Vader is facing criminal charges for illegal sales to
Iran.

The treasury dept is using the Al Capone method. They couldn't get him on the murders so they got him on the undeclared profits.

Hellloooo Swiss BAnk accounts.

here's the article:

Business / Middle East & Africa Print article | Email





Halliburton admits to criminal probe on Iran
By Joshua Chaffin in Washington
Published: July 20 2004 18:22 | Last Updated: July 20 2004 18:22


Halliburton, the oilfield services company formerly headed by US vice-president Dick Cheney, has disclosed that a Treasury department probe into its business dealings with Iran had been elevated to a criminal investigation.


The company acknowledged that it had been subpoenaed by a grand jury in the southern district of Texas to present documents related to a Cayman Islands subsidiary that serves the Iranian National Oil Company.

Halliburton said it would co-operate with the investigation, and that it believed it had complied with US trade restrictions against Iran.

The subpoena has emerged at a time when Iran has come under fresh scrutiny in Washington for its possible links to al-Qaeda.

President George W. Bush, who has dubbed Iran a member of the "axis of evil", on Monday said he would investigate claims in a forthcoming report on the September 11 terrorist attacks that the country might have offered safe passage to some of the hijackers who carried out the plot. The existence of the grand jury will add to the legal woes for Halliburton, which is also being investigated for possibly overcharging the US military for meals and fuel importation in Iraq.

The company's ties to the vice-president have made it an appealing target in Congress for critics of the Bush administration.

Senator Frank Lautenberg, a Democrat from New Jersey, yesterday insisted that the investigation consider any role played by Mr Cheney when he headed the company from 1995 to 2000.

Halliburton is also expected to be the focal point of a hearing tomorrow that will examine cost overruns and other problems with Iraq contracts, of which Halliburton has the largest share.

Wendy Hall, a Halliburton spokesperson, said: "It is important to understand, especially in the current political environment, that this is not a condemnation of the company, but a method of further studying the facts.

"We continue to believe that Halliburton's business in Iran is in compliance with applicable laws and regulations."

The US imposed sanctions on Iran following the 1979 revolution that led to the seizure of American hostages for more than a year.

Halliburton's work there, which has raised complaints from shareholders, amounts to about $80m a year - less than 1 per cent of its total revenues.

The Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control first requested information from Halliburton in mid-2001.


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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #268
269. what took you so long hot shot?
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 09:44 PM by Tellurian
too busy flapping your lip?

I hope you're not a JINX!
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scottxyz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #268
279. Oh, sure Dems
You're all up in arms about Cheney who sold a few nuclear bombs to Iran.

But where was the outrage when VP Gore made FUND-RAISING CALLS FROM HIS OFFICE TELEPHONE, huh???

This is old news, really. Ho-hum. Trading with the enemy - democracy is untidy, haven't you heard? What's done is done, so GET OVER IT.

</boudelang>

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #250
267. Right SCHRABY. There is evidence we will never get bcs we are not privy to
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 09:20 PM by Pallas180
Top Secret Clearance. In addition the evidence we would need
has been sealed by Junior. Which very strongly intimates that
he, on behalf of his father had a great deal to hide.

No one should forget that Halliburton was Herbert Walker's company
and Prescott Bush married Herbert Walker's daughter combining the
two families. Patterns and old habits die hard. Herbert Walker and
Prescott Bush made the family fortune by illegally financing the
purchase of armaments for Hitler's Third Reich, which they were
charged with and prohibited from certain activities for many years thereafter by FDR, who was generous and unfortunately forgiving to them.


Illegal. Illegal activities. Illegal dealings with enemies of the
State, which resulted in windfalls of illegal cash.

Patterns of behavior.

The evidence, which is sealed, would be that of confirming instructions to give to Pakistan nuclear materials, from where they spread across the Middle East, to North Korea, and the question is to where else? And what company would have been the avenue of this illegal activity?

The where else the illegal WMD was Valerie Plame's assignment.
Without question her assignment would lead to what company was involved in the illegal sale of the materials.

Although this is law that I don't know, I would venture a guess
that it would either take another president to unseal those documents, or a visit to the Supreme Court.

Where evidence of treason is involved, I would think that such
documents must be un-sealed. And Judges can unseal.

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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #267
270. Everything we have access to
points to illegal sales to sanctioned countries as well as countries not on our shit list. What we have access to, government agencies that deal with these matters also have access to, plus other information we are not privy to. The real question is..are they doing or going to do something with it or leave it lay hoping no one notices it.
If we inform news agencies and REAL investigative reporters of what we have found, and they run with it, it might come to the point where the government agencies tasked with protecting our country will be forced to do their jobs.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #270
271. Shraby, Sen Lautenberg held Senate hearings on this 5 months ago-
on CSPAN... nothing happened. Got buried in the news.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #271
272. I find the "news" is pretty good
at burying the "news". Everyone knows Peterson, Bryant and Jackson are the only things worthy of headlines.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #270
275. SHRABY exactly - that's the reason for our letter blitz - until
the newspapers force the senators to force proper agencies to do their job
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daria_g Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #228
283. I don't think it's old
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&s...

Halliburton Subpoenaed Over Unit's Iran Work

By Matt Daily

HOUSTON (Reuters) - A grand jury issued a subpoena to oil field services company Halliburton Co. seeking information about its Cayman Islands unit's work in Iran, where it is illegal for U.S. companies to operate, Halliburton said on Monday.

The company, formerly headed by Vice President Dick Cheney, said it understood the investigation of its subsidiary's work in Iran had been transferred to the U.S. Department of Justice from the Treasury Department, which first initiated an inquiry in 2001.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #217
221. THIS IS FANTASTIC! Hands trembling as I write!
More details, please! Did Begala get specific about what the trading involved, military equipment, WMD? Any specifics on the amount of money involved? Other organizations involved?

We got the ball rolling! Maybe there will be a cnn.com follow-up.

YES!
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #221
223. Me too!
What happened?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #221
224. RP-it was Crossfire-very quick speaking-not time for depth -
but the other side went bananas

Bwaaaaaaha
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #224
225. CALL SENATORS FOR FREE =1800-839-5276 switchboard will connect you to any
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 04:53 PM by Pallas180
1 (800) 839 - 5276 - TOLL FREE Capitol Hill Switchboard number! They'll transfer you to any House/Senate office you name!


and thanks to Calimary for that number

I was listening to the geek who cried Wolf with Saxby Chambliss
attacking BErger and got so mad I called up the 800 number, asked for Saxby's office and told the aide to please tell the Senator for me " He's so full of _ _ _ t it's incredible.

Since darth vader brought the level of discourse down to the four
letter level, they should not be surprised to receive such phone calls.

And if I knew Wolf's number who keeps harping on " Berger should have known better blh blah and what would happen if those letters were passed to an enemy' I would call him up and say the same thing
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #221
238. Begala transcript: "Cheney . . . trading with the enemy"
BEGALA: So you're saying -- by the way, in 1996, when Dick Cheney was running Halliburton and Halliburton was doing business in Iran and Iraq and in Libya, that was not widely known, because the documents have not been released from

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: Oh, they didn't know.

BEGALA: The reporting had not been done.

CARLSON: Oh, OK.

BEGALA: But you want to -- you want to compare Mrs. Kerry's trust for 50 days owning stock vs. Dick Cheney, who traded with the enemy.

(CROSSTALK)

(BELL RINGING)

BEGALA: A shareholder doesn't have any control over what the CEO does.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Dick Cheney ought to be held to account for what he did trading with the enemy.

CARLSON: I know. You've said this every day. (CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Iran, Iraq, Libya, our enemy.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: I'm only saying, take your own overheated, overwrought, semi-insane rhetoric seriously and apply it across the board.

BEGALA: I take it very seriously. Dick Cheney ought to be held accountable.

more
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0407/21/cf.00.html

-------------------


CARLSON: I know. You've said this every day. Watch out, Tucker; what if you actually had to actually hear this every day? Imagine the fun you would actually have actually refuting it. Are you really ready for a daily dose? Trading with the enemy is treason, you know. Are you ok with fines for treason? Just part of the 'cost of doing business'?


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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #238
240. Lawd - TACTICAL you are a gem!!! Wow Begala really laid it out -now
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 06:19 PM by Pallas180
we hve to get it to a reporter who will really pick it up and run
with it.

Maybe I can get hold of Begala and ask him what reporter would
do a super job of exposure...cause we got the goods!
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
229. Conason's latest on Wilson @ NY Observer..
http://www.observer.com/pages/conason.asp

Joe is dutifully keeping the focus on the felonious outing of Plame's secret CIA identity..
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
237.  12-12-17 Statute of limitations. No Statute of Limitations for Treason


TITLE 12
Criminal Procedure
CHAPTER 12-12
Indictments, Informations and Complaints


SECTION 12-12-17
12-12-17 Statute of limitations. (a) There shall be no statute of limitations for the following offenses: treason against the state,.. or any other offense for which the maximum penalty provided is life imprisonment.



http://www.rilin.state.ri.us/Statutes/TITLE12/12-12/12-...
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #237
257. Speaking of Law, John Edwards is on Larry King now.
:hi:
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #257
274. #268 is the reason Sandy Berger is all over the news
In # 268 I posted the whole story of the criminal investigation
of Halliburton/Cheney from the FT Business News.

They threw Sandy Berger out there the same day to cover that July 20 article.on Halliburton-Cheney.

Clever Rove..

Always look for what thye're covering up.

And SAndy Berger said it about the Wilson matter.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
256. "A Time to Break Silence"
I want to follow-up on an earlier post, when I used a quote from the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr: "A time comes when silence is betrayal." I know that not everyone holds Dr. King in the same degree of respect and awe as I do. And that there are people --even on this forum and on this thread -- who do not have faith in the goals outlined in Dr. King's speeches. But for those of you who do, I want to quote from his historic address at a meeting of Clergy and Laity Concerned, on 4-4-67 ... exactly a year before his death. Dr. King had begun to speak out against Vietnam, and the corrupting affect that war had on our democratic society. He was turned on by many "establishment" people, who told him he was wrong.

" 'A time comes when silence is betrayal.' That time has come for us in relation to Vietnam.

The truth of these words is beyond doubt but the mission to which they call us is a most difficult one. Even when pressed by the demands of inner truth, men do not easily assume the task of opposing their government's policy, especially in time of war. Nor does the human spirit move without great difficulty against all the apathy of conformist thought within one's own bosom and in the surrounding world. Moreover, when the issues at hand seem as perplexed as they often do in the case of this dreadful conflict we are always on the verge of being mesmerized by uncertainty; but we must move on.

Some of us who have already begun to break the silence of the night have found the calling to speak is often a vocation of agony, but we must speak. We must speak with all the humility that is appropriate to our limited vision, but we must speak. And we must rejoice as well, for surely this is the first time in our nation's history that a significant number of its religious leaders have chosen to move beyond the prophesying of smooth patriotism to the high grounds of a firm dissent based upon the mandates of conscience and the reading of history. Perhaps a new spirit is rising among us. If it is, let us trace its movement well and pray that our own inner being may be sensitive to its guidance, for we are deeply in need of a new way beyond the darkness that seems so close all around us.

Over the past two years, as I've moved to break the betrayal of my own silence and to speak from the burnings of my own heart, as I have called for radical departures from the destruction of Vietnam, many persons have questioned me about the wisdom of my path. At the hear of their concerns this query has often loomed large and loud: why are YOU speaking about war, Dr. King? Why are YOU joining the voices of dissent? Peace and civil rights don't mix, they say. Aren't you hurting the cause of your people, they ask? And when I hear them, though I often understand the source of their concern, I am nevertheless greatly saddened, for such questions mean that the inquirers have not really known me, my commitment or my calling. Indeed, their questions suggest that they do not know the world in which they live."
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #256
273. I hate to say this,
but this thread is long enough. I have a fast connection and it looks like a slower connection would be having trouble getting it.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #273
276. Shraby, wait until tomorrow morning OK. Either you or I will
post with all the stuff in the header......but there may be
something else special we have to put in.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #276
278. Okay
Did you see the post I put in general discussion about Idema telling the Afghanistan court that he was working for Rumsfeld? Check it out.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #256
277. The Pope & The pResident

The pope and the president By Archbishop Bruce J. Simpson


In 44 years we have gone from the fear that a Roman Catholic president might take orders from the pope, to a Protestant president who asks the pope to order his bishops to help him get elected. Even as Roman Catholic bishops wield access to Holy Communion as an antigay political weapon, this clergyman asks, What would Jesus do?
By Archbishop Bruce J. Simpson, Benedictine Order of St. John the Beloved (an Old Catholic order)

An Advocate.com exclusive posted July 8, 2004

The Pilgrims fled Europe and came to Plymouth to escape the intolerance and hatred of religious persecution. Almost four centuries later a very disturbing trend is taking place in America that is the very antitheses of what this country is supposed to stand for and be about. Religious persecution has once again reared its ugly head.

In recent weeks we have seen the president of the United States ask the head of a worldwide religious organizationthe pope, who is also the head of a foreign stateto help him win reelection (actually, it would be his first win for president at the ballot box). That not being enough, this same White House occupant has now asked the largest Protestant denomination in the United States to help him win his first election. These actions have effectively blended church and politics to an unprecedented level in American life.



Continued:

http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/919/919_communion ....


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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #277
281. More on the Sandy Berger story
Guards left Berger alone, sources say

Washington Former national security adviser Sandy Berger repeatedly persuaded monitors assigned to watch him review top-secret documents to break the rules and leave him alone, sources said Wednesday.
Berger, accused of smuggling some of the secret files out of the National Archives, got the monitors out of the high-security room by telling them he had to make sensitive phone calls.

Guards were convinced to violate their own rules by stepping out of the secure room as he looked over documents and allegedly stashed some in his clothing, sources said.

"He was supposed to be monitored at all times but kept asking the monitor to leave so he could make private calls," a senior law enforcement source told the Daily News.

(more)

<http://www.news-leader.com/today/0722-Guardsleft-138802... >

If these monitors of high security material didn't monitor Berger, why do they still have their jobs? I smell something mighty fishy.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #281
284. A ROVE SPECIAL : Hide the Cheney Criminal Probe-Leak Sandy Berger
ROVE SPECIAL Shell Game: Distract from Cheney Criminal Probe
CONCERNING SANDY BERGER

THIS IS A "ROVE SPECIAL" SHELL GAME. SAME DAY PAPER ANNOUNCES CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION OF CHENEY BUT if you put all the attention on SAndy Berger stealing "state" secrets that he himself wrote, then whose going to notice that Dick Cheney and Halliburton are under criminal investigation for their offshore company selling to Libya, Iran, Iraq and Syrria on the "forbidden list" for a US Company, and profits hidden in Swiss BAnk Accounts- which is why Treasury is investigating - the "Al Capone" move -
get em on taxes when you can't get em on anything else.

What was Halliburton/Cheney selling? components that could be converted for nuclear use..like caps to
set of THE bomb or at least a dirty bomb.
here's the story, NOTICE THE DATE, same day as Berger investigation announced & leaked from Asscroft's
faux Justice Dept.

"HALLIBURTON ADMITS TO CRIMINAL PROBE ON IRAN JULY 20 2004"

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.co ... (FinancialTimes.com) London paper
Business / Middle East & Africa Print article | Email

Halliburton admits to criminal probe on Iran By Joshua Chaffin in Washington
Published: July 20 2004 18:22 | Last Updated: July 20 2004 18:22

Halliburton, the oilfield services company formerly headed by US vice-president Dick Cheney, has disclosed that a Treasury department probe into its business dealings with Iran had been elevated to a criminal investigation.The company acknowledged that it had been subpoenaed by a grand jury in the southern district of Texas to present documents related to a Cayman Islands subsidiary that serves the Iranian National Oil Company.Halliburton said it would co-operate with the investigation, and that it believed it had complied with US trade restrictions against Iran.

The subpoena has emerged at a time when Iran has come under fresh scrutiny in Washington for its possible links to al-Qaeda.

President George W. Bush, who has dubbed Iran a member of the "axis of evil", on Monday said he would investigate claims in a forthcoming report on the September 11 terrorist attacks that the country might have offered safe passage to some of the hijackers who carried out the plot. The existence of the grand jury will add to the legal woes for Halliburton, which is also being investigated for possibly overcharging the US military for meals and fuel importation in Iraq.

The company's ties to the vice-president have made it an appealing target in Congress for critics of the Bush administration. Senator Frank Lautenberg, a Democrat from New Jersey, yesterday insisted that the investigation consider any role played by Mr Cheney when he headed the company from 1995 to 2000. Halliburton is also expected to be the focal point of a hearing tomorrow that will examine cost overruns and other problems with Iraq contracts, of which Halliburton has the largest share.

Wendy Hall, a Halliburton spokesperson, said: "It is important to understand, especially in the current political environment, that this is not a condemnation of the company, but a method of further studying the facts.
"We continue to believe that Halliburton's business in Iran is in compliance with applicable laws and regulations."The US imposed sanctions on Iran following the 1979 revolution that led to the seizure of American hostages for more than a year.Halliburton's work there, which has raised complaints from shareholders, amounts to about $80m a year - less than 1 per cent of its total revenues.

The Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control first requested information from Halliburton in mid-2001.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #284
285. Sandy Berger's probe is a distraction from the 9/11 Commission findings
They've known about Sandy Berger since last October. The 9/11 Commission Report is front page news...Bush is trying to undermine Kerry's credibility by targeting Wilson and Berger. Two men chosen by Kerry to be his Foreign policy advisers..
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
282. Wow!!! H2O's post on MLK, and Pallas' post on the Pope/shrub!!
Following these two posts....at this (very) late/early hour, is good for nothing more than a big "kick".

What a helluva great thread!!! And it's #11!!!!!

Ok. So, tomorrow brings #12, and I'll be up late, so y'all will have already nailed the bad guys by the time I get my first cup :donut: !!

Bottom line for tonite: There is STILL something that is going to break BIG in Washington, DC in the next few days..... a "tectonic shift", according to TPM. If the past few days of obfuscation by the bush admin./media hasn't been enough to send a red-herring half way across the galaxy, maybe we'll find out what the REAL poop is all about!

:loveya: MANY KUDOS TO THE PLAME-THREAD INVESTIGATORS!! :loveya:

Tomorrow I'll write some snail mail letters to media and congresscritters! (as opposed to just faxes, calls & e-mails.) We're going to tear this bunch of crooks a new one!

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
286. Good morning, DUers!
In a little while, we will be starting a new thread. I'd like to take this opportunity to make a suggestion that I think will be helpful to everyone who is participating on this discussion. Let's make two threads: (1) for people interested in continuing the discussion in the direction it had been going -- regarding "why" events have occured as they have; and (2) any one for anyone who is not interested in participating in this discussion, and feels the need to move in a different direction.

So have a cup of coffee, do any house-hold chores you need to, or pretend you're busy at work in your office, and give it a little consideration. This is kind of like a fork in the road. Many of us want to go in the "why?" direction. Good luck to any one who wants to go in a very different direction. As Malcolm X used to say, we'll catch you later .... much later .....
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #286
287. Gd Morning H20-think I found a possible WHY re:Berger, so I wont be going
to another thread. :)

What do you think of "Rove Special" a couple of threads up
above?

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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #286
288. For now, the thread topic seems to be spent..
not a bad idea to step away, refresh and grow.

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #288
292. Is there objection if Tellurian doesn't want to continue "WHY" with us?
:hi:

bye
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