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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:30 PM
Original message
Will the Kerrybots please stop whining about "purity" demanded by others
when they just turn around and try to drum anyone who doesn't worship Kerry properly off the site.

:evilgrin:
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. heh.
:hi:
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. "Kerrybots"
Insults are probably not effective.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. No shit
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm Proud to be a Kerrybot and not a Bush enabler....
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
23. Kerry himself is a Bush enabler.
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. Kerrybots squash Bush enablers everytime
:hi:
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
59. Here here.
:toast: Until Bush is out of the WH, I am a proud Kerry-bot. I will not do or say anything publically that could end up being regurgitated by the whore media as "proof!" that Kerry's support is weak. If I have negative comments to make I have plenty of friends and family members I can make them to. I don't need to go on a public forum on the world wide web to put down my champion.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. Should round folks like you up and put them in a free speech zone!
Sorry....couldn't resist. :)

You're just unpatriotic! You're UnAmerican! You must hate America!

What else did republicans say to those with dissenting opinions?

oh yeah..America: Love it or leave it.

O8)



dissent isn't hate.



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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. Am I a Kerrybot?
How does one know if one is a Kerrybot?

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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Given a list of 30 key words work them into a short post explaining why...
Kerry was right to vote for the IWR. The words change from time to time, but the true Kerry-bot can always make the proper adjustments and incorporate them into the essay. :-)
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. What's the IWR?
The Iraq War Resolution? If so, um, I don't think he was right for voting for it. I think he feels that way now. But I'm still voting for him anyway. Bush scares the crap out of me.

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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. "I don't think he was right for voting for it"
You've failed the Kerrybot test. You aren't a Kerrybot.
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. DAMN!
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
63. Of course he was wrong for voting for the IWR. But what good..
does it do to keep kicking a dead horse? What's done is done. This is a rhetorical statement. Not a personal question to you. :hi:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
36. See you guys just can't get it right - IUFR is the proper term
No body gets it - Congress never declared war - it authorized the use of force based on bad intel. War is never mentioned in HJRes 114.

So the proper reference to the resolution is "Iraq Use of Force Resolution".

Just an fyi!


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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. A turd by any other name would smell just a sweet
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. Yes, I agree with you - I am just pointing out the inaccuracy of
IWR. It is important that we as citizens of the US recognize that Congress never declared war on Iraq.

I realize that the violence and the invasion of Iraq is horrific and our presences there is wrong and criminal. I am just pointing out that Congress never declared war. The use of force was authorized.
It is still terrible, but folks don't realize how different the two (2) truly are. Read the declaration of war resolutions from WWII = they are interesting and the differences are obvious.

=============================

December 8, 1941
JOINT RESOLUTION Declaring that a state of war exists between the Imperial Government of Japan and the Government and the people of the United States and making provisions to prosecute the same.

Whereas the Imperial Government of Japan has committed unprovoked acts of war against the Government and the people of the United States of America: . . .
(snip)

http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/japwar.html

=============================

December 11, 1941

The President's Message
To the Congress of the United States:

On the morning of Dec. 11 the Government of Germany, pursuing its course of world conquest, declared war against the United States. The long-known and the long-expected has thus taken place. The forces endeavoring to enslave the entire world now are moving toward this hemisphere. Never before has there been a greater challenge to life, liberty and civilization. Delay invites great danger. Rapid and united effort by all of the peoples of the world who are determined to remain free will insure a world victory of the forces of justice and of righteousness over the forces of savagery and of barbarism. Italy also has declared war against the United States.

I therefore request the Congress to recognize a state of war between the United States and Germany, and between the United States and Italy.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

The War Resolution
Declaring that a state of war exists between the Government of Germany and the government and the people of the United States and making provision to prosecute the same.

Whereas the Government of Germany has formally declared war against the government and the people of the United States of America:

(snip)

http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/germwar.html

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Waverley_Hills_Hiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
7. ."..Just among us ladies...."
Ya know, this is a Democratic site, so we can whine about Kerry and defend Kerry, but we will all eventually still vote for Kerry.

Just becuase folks are calling Kerry out on things doesnt mean we are not going to vote for him. Heck this is a message board...pissing and moaning is just "providing content".
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. agreed - but there are a few actively campaigning to DEFEAT Kerry
and I have a problem with that.

Oh, perhaps it is the last rush before the convention when that will no longer be allowed at DU
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StandUpGuy Donating Member (392 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
46. Is there a post from the admin that I missed
saying criticizing Kerry after the convention will not be tolerated?


I hope not because it will make it that much harder to restart the pressure to lean left after he is swept to power on an ABB victory.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #46
60. constructive criticism ok, actively campaigning against, not ok
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 06:39 PM by emulatorloo
Will paste it here if I can find it.

Ok here you go:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

snip

Negative attacks are an unavoidable part of any political campaign, and therefore they are permitted against any Democratic presidential candidate. However, once the Democratic party officially nominates its candidate for president, then the time for fighting is over and the negative attacks against candidates must stop. The administrators of this website do not wish for our message board to be used as a platform to attack and tear down the only progressive on the planet with any hope of defeating George W. Bush. Constructive criticism and even outright disappointment with the candidate may be expressed, but partisan negative attacks will not be welcome. If you wish to contribute to the defeat of the Democratic candidate for president, then you are welcome to use someone else's bandwidth on some other website. As the election season draws closer, we may expand this rule to include Democratic candidates for other political offices.

snip
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MikeG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. And its taking us away from the real issue: Box Turtles!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
42. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lapauvre Donating Member (387 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. Gee, thanks for not showing your bias.
Your objectivity is absolutely stunning.

So you won't vote for Kerry. Fine. But the alternatives are not appealing.

Four more years (if we have that long) of Bush, and you won't have a vote. Then you won't have to be responsible for anything except griping, if you dare.

Four more years of this BS and you can believe in the any party you want to, the Consitutional Party, the Green Party, the Communist Party, the Nazi Party, the Citizens Party, or the Saturday Night Party.

It won't matter.

Don't know why I bothered to waste my time posting this.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #48
62. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
70. Just like Ralph tells us..."there's no difference, blah, blah, blah"
Can I suggest you fix your grammer error in your sig line? I'd hate for that blemish to take away from such an insightful and astute post.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #75
107. Thanks for the correction on "grammar"
And if you really think Kerry and Bush are 99%+ identical; well, who am I too spoil your delusion?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
9. Can you discuss issues????
That would be terrific. If you aren't happy with a particular issue, discuss it. It isn't necessary to bash Kerry in the process. Because what it comes down to most of the time is cherry-picking statements in order to bash Kerry more than anything else. I've never understood the sick obsession to bash him that's been going on here for over a year.

And if you want to support your Green Socialist Cobb Nader Whoever candidate, then DO THAT. It is unfair for Kerry to have to present real plans to truly solve problems in the world when the others don't have to because they'll never be called on to do anything anyway.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Neither the Greens, Cobb, or Nader are Socialists
so please don't dump the bourgeois with us! Thank you.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. "support your Green Socialist Cobb Nader Whoever candidate"
lol...here we see the beginning onset of full Kerrybot-ness ;-)
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. You got something to say????
Do ya'? Because I've been trying to get SOMEBODY to tell me how Nader or Cobb is so goddamned different than Kerry? Truly, based on policy platforms, not antecdotal rhetoric.

Single Payer? How are they going to get it passed? How much is it going to cost? How is it going to be implemented? What do the doctors say? Where's the actual in-depth policy analysis?

Iraq? How is guaranteeing security, elections and rebuilding going to be done without US troops and money?

Israel? How are they going to stop the suicide bombings, considering the written down goal of Palestinians is to drive Israelis from the region?

Written down policy. Real platforms, real solutions, real analysis by noted foreign policy experts. You know, give me SOMETHING that would make me think Nader or Cobb is really fucking ready to be the President.

Anything less than that is pure shit.

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. This isn't about Nader or Cobb or Kerry
Next?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. Is it just about pissing in the wind then?
Because if spouting shit out your mouth regardless of the consequences is all you're about, then pissing in the wind is pretty much what you're doing. Sure, you've got the right to do that, but it's none too smart.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. There's a point to this thread somewhere
hope you locate it.
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fdr_hst_fan Donating Member (853 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. Never heard of this Cobb person,
but I truly believe Ralph's been reading his own publicity for so long he actually BELIEVES it!
:nopity:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Cobb is a nobody
that is all!
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
76. Just a point
"Israel? How are they going to stop the suicide bombings, considering the written down goal of Palestinians is to drive Israelis from the region? "

By "Palestinians" I presume you mean the PA and this is NOT their "written down goal"

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #76
83. I was going to point that out
but figured this thread was heading for locksville fast enough as it was :)
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. that's why Nader says he would not accept a cabinet position
in a Kerry administration. and probably why he has never ran for office he could more realistically win (and might have later helped run for president and have a true chance of winning). because when you are in those positions it requires working with those who don't always agree and to get things done it often requires compromises.

but for others who aren't in that position they can just attack and accuse those who are in those positions of selling out and other things.

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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. and please wait before flying off the handle at the latest AP misquote
or AP misleadingly written headline?
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Worst Username Ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
19. Despite being a member of a progressive site,
I agree with you that it is amazing that many of us are still capable of independent thought!
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. Here's some independent thought from a progressive
We are the selfish progressives when we think it is all about us. We require the perfect candidate who reflects our views precisely. If we cannot have such a candidate, we may not vote, or we may vote for someone who cannot win, just to show our support for our precious opinions. This grandstanding is more important to us than the lives of all the people who will die and be exploited if a fascist warmonger is elected because of our selfish narcissism.

The old joke is that the left forms its firing squad in a circle. The truth of that is in the selfish progressive's belief that politics is not for the practical advance of the common good, but is a showcase for personal sentiments. Progressive meetings take forever as all of us must fully expound our views on everything. It is such a bore when other people speak, and so wonderfully enlightening when we finally get a few hours to speak ourselves. It is, in other words, a monumentally selfish exercise much of the time.

I hope the Nader candidacy is not to become a meeting ground for such narcissism at the expense of other people's lives.

I am concerned about the future of the Green Party. My friends in the Greens tell me that they are building a party and that they must look to the long view. If they are right, here is the long view: ten to twenty years of party growth, during which the left vote will be split and the right wing will have the institutions of government all to themselves. Another ten to twenty years of equality between the Greens and the Dems, during which the right wing will have another era of unchallenged power. Then ten to twenty years when the Greens outpace the Dems, but the Dems are still a factor and the progressive vote is still split. So, say, thirty to sixty years before they can see some victories. Will there be anything like justice and liberty and nature left to work with by that time?

Do the Greens have a better scenario to meet the real and present danger to the planet? I do: let the progressives take over the Democratic party, whose doors are unlocked and whose halls are unguarded. That can be done in two to four years. If the energies of the Green Party were transferred to a Green Caucus within the Democratic Party, real progress would be possible quickly

It is time for the factions of the left to understand that, unless they have a practical strategy for early victory, they stand in the way of justice, of environmental protection, and of peace if they continue to split the progressive vote. If they can actually win elections in some areas, that is a different matter, of course.

If any fellow progressives are in the game only to hear themselves pontificate and wax eloquent about their wonderful values and their brilliant grasp of the issues--while others starve and die, I ask them to join Toastmasters where they can learn to make shorter, less boring speeches and also do no harm in the world. Politics is not about posturing, but about winning and losing and representing the interests of millions of people. When you take up the sword of politics, you play to win on behalf of your people, not to look pretty in your uniform.

That same narcissism that we of the left are particularly prone to, by the way, may be on display in the convention cities this summer. Millions of television viewers trying to decide whether or not to jump ship from the incumbent will look at the mess on the streets in Boston and New York and say, well, if I have to choose sides, I know I'm not on theirs. The conventions are a time for massive action, but it had better be well organized and designed to convey real information respectfully to the American people, or it will be a selfish and damaging exercise in adult play at the expense of thousands of lives and the environment. I urge those non-delegates going to the conventions to carry thoughtful signs designed not to show only their anger, but the truth. I urge young people to consider the conventions not as an opportunity for mayhem and fun, but for service to their country and their world by using their creativity to open, not close, the hearts of the millions of Americans who will be watching. Let's look good out there. It is not in protesting alone that we find our power, but in creating change in the hearts and minds of millions of Americans. We have the power to do this, because the facts are on our side and because most Americans do care about the air, water, forests and mountains of their world, and most Americans do not side with corruption and exploitation and greed. We can only enlarge our tent by attracting people into it through our earnestness and our ability to admirably represent truth and love.


http://grannyd.com/speech20040529.htm

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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #28
54. NSMA: Don't you know you're not supposed to bring logic to these things?
If you're not just going to demagogue the issue, why talk about it at all?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #54
68. I have my principles too, don't ya know?
One principle I have is to not use my high horse principles to harm the very people I pretend to help with my high minded idealism void of actual results.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
105. That might have been the best thing I've ever read on DU.
Too bad it will fall on deaf Naderite ears.
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Downtown Hound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
21. Processing..."purity" processing "demanded by others"
HTML typed response=

Debate and disagreement necessary in a democracy. But on a side note, Nader is a dick.

Am I a Kerrybot?

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Nope,dont sound like one
:shrug:
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
22. Nope....there's a million places on the web to help defeat Democrats
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 05:54 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
and the SINGLE person who CAN beat Bush. This site is about 86'ing Bush and anyone with the brains of a horse's ass can see that Kerry is the only candidate with enough numbers to do that...the site welcomes ALL progressives who will help us with the goal of defeating Bush.

IF you can explain how we can divide the vote in closely contested states, continue to post propaganda that leaves people hopeless in the face of the changes that are necessary and bash Kerry while drumming up support so that Bush may retire...feel free to tell me how it is that you can do that.

If not people on the left that post here to repeatedly disrupt and diminish Kerry are NO DIFFERENT than people on the right that do the same fucking thing.

They started a website where they could get their rocks off incessantly bashing DU while they high five one another..maybe they should go post there...except it's a really boring board that has managed to offend its own for the most part with its free for all.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. What,no GrannyD article?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. hehe..ok...here's a little piece just for you :)
If any fellow progressives are in the game only to hear themselves pontificate and wax eloquent about their wonderful values and their brilliant grasp of the issues--while others starve and die, I ask them to join Toastmasters where they can learn to make shorter, less boring speeches and also do no harm in the world. Politics is not about posturing, but about winning and losing and representing the interests of millions of people. When you take up the sword of politics, you play to win on behalf of your people, not to look pretty in your uniform
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. "Politics is not about posturing,"
hahaha...that's a good one. :)
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. See post #28
:eyes:
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. Wow...you're going to have to stop offering so much substance
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #52
74. I will just as soon as
you stop spamming, Teena.

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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #74
81. Fair enough
:evilgrin:

We are the selfish progressives when we think it is all about us. We require the perfect candidate who reflects our views precisely. If we cannot have such a candidate, we may not vote, or we may vote for someone who cannot win, just to show our support for our precious opinions. This grandstanding is more important to us than the lives of all the people who will die and be exploited if a fascist warmonger is elected because of our selfish narcissism.

The old joke is that the left forms its firing squad in a circle. The truth of that is in the selfish progressive's belief that politics is not for the practical advance of the common good, but is a showcase for personal sentiments. Progressive meetings take forever as all of us must fully expound our views on everything. It is such a bore when other people speak, and so wonderfully enlightening when we finally get a few hours to speak ourselves. It is, in other words, a monumentally selfish exercise much of the time.

I hope the Nader candidacy is not to become a meeting ground for such narcissism at the expense of other people's lives.

I am concerned about the future of the Green Party. My friends in the Greens tell me that they are building a party and that they must look to the long view. If they are right, here is the long view: ten to twenty years of party growth, during which the left vote will be split and the right wing will have the institutions of government all to themselves. Another ten to twenty years of equality between the Greens and the Dems, during which the right wing will have another era of unchallenged power. Then ten to twenty years when the Greens outpace the Dems, but the Dems are still a factor and the progressive vote is still split. So, say, thirty to sixty years before they can see some victories. Will there be anything like justice and liberty and nature left to work with by that time?

Do the Greens have a better scenario to meet the real and present danger to the planet? I do: let the progressives take over the Democratic party, whose doors are unlocked and whose halls are unguarded. That can be done in two to four years. If the energies of the Green Party were transferred to a Green Caucus within the Democratic Party, real progress would be possible quickly

It is time for the factions of the left to understand that, unless they have a practical strategy for early victory, they stand in the way of justice, of environmental protection, and of peace if they continue to split the progressive vote. If they can actually win elections in some areas, that is a different matter, of course.

If any fellow progressives are in the game only to hear themselves pontificate and wax eloquent about their wonderful values and their brilliant grasp of the issues--while others starve and die, I ask them to join Toastmasters where they can learn to make shorter, less boring speeches and also do no harm in the world. Politics is not about posturing, but about winning and losing and representing the interests of millions of people. When you take up the sword of politics, you play to win on behalf of your people, not to look pretty in your uniform.

That same narcissism that we of the left are particularly prone to, by the way, may be on display in the convention cities this summer. Millions of television viewers trying to decide whether or not to jump ship from the incumbent will look at the mess on the streets in Boston and New York and say, well, if I have to choose sides, I know I'm not on theirs. The conventions are a time for massive action, but it had better be well organized and designed to convey real information respectfully to the American people, or it will be a selfish and damaging exercise in adult play at the expense of thousands of lives and the environment. I urge those non-delegates going to the conventions to carry thoughtful signs designed not to show only their anger, but the truth. I urge young people to consider the conventions not as an opportunity for mayhem and fun, but for service to their country and their world by using their creativity to open, not close, the hearts of the millions of Americans who will be watching. Let's look good out there. It is not in protesting alone that we find our power, but in creating change in the hearts and minds of millions of Americans. We have the power to do this, because the facts are on our side and because most Americans do care about the air, water, forests and mountains of their world, and most Americans do not side with corruption and exploitation and greed. We can only enlarge our tent by attracting people into it through our earnestness and our ability to admirably represent truth and love.


http://grannyd.com/speech20040529.htm
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
45. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. I don't think you should get the boot
I enjoy hearing opinions such as yours, because I mostly agree with them.

But I'm whoring myself this year because I want bush out so badly. Once Kerry's in I want him to go so far left liberal I don't recognize him anymore.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. Deleted message
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. Really FDR was pretty rich
so far I am pretty unimpressed with your contributions, but I only answered that because you asked..otherwise it would be a personal attack.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #51
61. Deleted message
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Really? No difference between Clinton and Bush?
The rest of the civilized world would disagree with you.

And I find nothing in your ideas that is original, not even you bragging that they might be.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. Deleted message
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. Yeah well you just drew your own motives into question by saying so
and if you were that interested, you could see for yourself what Africans think of Clinton versus Bush....

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #77
82. Deleted message
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #65
87. SOME of the rest of the civilised world
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 06:56 PM by Djinn
Some people in Sudan, Somalia and the former Yugoslavia certainly wouldn't. Not to mention the folks in Iraq who lost loved ones to disease and hunger as a result of the sanctions or the bombings raids carried out by the US and UK throughout Clinton's years - and during that time they still had to deal with Saddam.

Don't get me wrong - I'd pick Clinton any day of the week if the choice was only between him and shrub and if I could vote in the US election I'd hold me nose and vote Kerry but I think'd be the last time I voted Dem. In politics if you want to know who calls the tunes you need to know who pays the piper and unfortunately it's pretty much the same people paying for the Democrats and Republicans these days
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. Hey,no trolling in my troll thread!
:spank:
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #61
104. When you come up with an original friggen thought,
please start a separate thread. So far, you've contributed zippo to this discussion.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. You think all of government is a scam?
Wow... there's some reasonable analysis right there.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #55
66. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #45
93. What if....
there were Republcan operatives posting here whose job it was to smear Kerry and try to convince us that there was no reason to vote, because there was no difference between the 2?

I'd be hard pressed to spot the difference between the RNC operatives and the "more progressive than thou" posters who would rather let Bush remain in power for 4 more years than compromise on their ideal of a perfect, but non-existant President. Different political positions, same result.



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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
58. I disagree with a few things there
'If not people on the left that post here to repeatedly disrupt and diminish Kerry are NO DIFFERENT than people on the right that do the same fucking thing.'

I just got done with a massive thread on the subject of 'there's no difference', so I may as well continue with the subject here. :) I would stop short of saying they are no different--many of those here who really excoriate Kerry do not have at all the same goals as those who do so from the right. You might argue that the effect is similar, but I think the intent is way different--even though some may actively want him to fail, their hearts are still in a better place than those of the right. I can swing with wanting to Kerry to fail because you believe that will in the long run advance leftist values. I don't agree with it, but I can appreciate it. I can't agree with or appreciate wanting Kerry to fail so a radical right-wing authoritarian regime can continue. That's the major difference for me.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #58
89. Sorry my friend..put good intentions in one hand and shit in the other
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 06:52 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
and see which one weighs more...frankly the person on the right posting so that Kerry may lose and get another RW dictatorship is at least ideologically consistent and definitely more effective than the person on the left who undermines him knowing they can't win thereby installing another radical RW authoritarian. No major difference if the result is the same, except that one was effective in their goals and the other was naive.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
26. I wish the utopians would stop equating Kerry with Bush.
How many posts have I read today that claim Kerry will pursue aggressive wars like Bush? Many. You betcha. Just like Al Gore would allow road building in the national forests. I don't mind a free exchange of ideas, but there is too much silliness from the utopians.

I personally lean towards a very progressive nation with extensive social programs, and equitable distribution of wealth. The way to get there is to 1) unite and defeat the fascists 2) build a stronger and more progressive Democratic party 3) stop splintering progressive power, i.e., demanding utopia now and devolving into weak fringe groups.

Kerry's not perfect but he's the best hope we have. It's silly to equate him to the vermin in charge of our Nation now.
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
27. LOL
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. That's it...just a "lol"?
This was in your honor!! :spank:

;-)
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
50. Thats all this thread deserves.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. Well gee,know you know how some of us felt
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
32. ZZZZzzzz. More whining.
I couldn't give a rat's ass which other non-viable-candidate you support. And I certainly wouldn't waste a moment trying to "drum you off the board." I have plenty of other things to do that simply don't involve you at all.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I'm voting for Kerry
I have plenty of other things to do that simply don't involve you at all.

That's probably for the best.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
44. Both sides have their bad apples here
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 06:14 PM by jpgray
And if you post an unambiguously pro OR anti Kerry post, you can expect a similar number of partisans to come in and give you what for. If your post is ambiguous, people will interpret it in whatever way they prefer to argue about most. :)

I don't think that one side is better than the other, but I do think that labelling and attacking people rather than dealing with the message itself is lazy and irritating. I also don't like to be accused of persecuting someone just because I criticize their opinion.

edit: And I certainly would never demand 'purity' of anyone.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
57. Whatever....
:boring:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. Glad you joined us
but I was talking about Kerrybots,not Clarkbots ;-)
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #64
85. I've been a Kerry-bot since Clark dropped out...
Getting bush out of the WH is priority one with me. I could care less about personalities or anything else. I'd be a bot for whomever the nominee would be. :hi:
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
67. hey...that's DIFFERENT
THEY are pure :7
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. Dammit,now you just gummed up the whole premise
:D
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #67
80. Pure what?
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jdonaldball Donating Member (684 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
69. Oh Christ. "Kerrybots" sounds like a girl band.
Like "Josie and the Kerrybots."
How can anyone take this kind of talk seriously?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #69
79. I dont know
but many did,and made it a fun thread :P

Personally I think that anytime someone sees my name attached to a thread they should just assume unserious contents.

I'm serious.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #79
100. Which KerryBot are you?
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 07:07 PM by emulatorloo
http://www.valvigirl.net/quizzes/ppgquiz.html

That's what I imagined when I heard "Kerrybot," and for that you DELIGHT ME!!!!!!

:toast:

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #100
108. I'm Buttercup!!!
She rules.

I LOVE the Powerpuff Girls :)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
78. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #78
88. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Teddy_Salad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. What rules did she break?
And ya right, you do come across as "silly". :eyes:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #90
95. I dont know,ask the admins
I'm sure they didn't delete her posts just to make her mad.

And I'm not very concerned with how I come across. :shrug:
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Teddy_Salad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. But....but......
YOU said she broke the rules so.....if you don't know what those rules were...why'd ya say it?

Could it be that the likes of you get more leeway than others here?

Yeah...I think that's probably the case.

And ummmm....just ya reply shows that you do in fact care what others think of you.
And you should too.
You come across as a jerk. :P
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #99
109. but...but....
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 07:20 PM by Forkboy
I said it because the admins dont just delete posts for the fun of it.You have to post an insult...something like,oh I dunno,"You come across as a jerk."

Could it be that the likes of you get more leeway than others here?

Yes,the mods are biased and LOVE me :eyes:
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Teddy_Salad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. Not so much of an insult...
...as it is a fact.

And yeah...they do love ya.
That's quite obvious but not a surprise.

You are so funny and such a comedian after all. :hi:
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. King of the one liner, aren't ya?
I can agree with one thing you said though. You aren't serious, so I won't waste my time.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #92
96. Can't understand how you got any posts deleted
:silly:
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #96
101. What? Did you find that insulting?
I bet you hit alert right away, didn't ya? :D
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #101
110. I bet you're wrong
consistant though.
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Teddy_Salad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
84. "I'm a Kerrybot!!! I'm a Kerrybot!!!!"
"Exterminate!!! Exterminate!!!!!!!!"

:eyes:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #84
97. That's the spirit
that I'm poking some fun at here.Interesting to see how some respond when it's turned on them :hi:
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Teddy_Salad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #97
103. Oh, always the jokester aren't ya, Fork "Boy"
Always using the "Ohhh...but I'm only poking fun and having a laugh" defense as the excuse for your insulting ways.

Yeah....you're a prime example as to the way some respond when "it's" turned on them. :loveya:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #103
112. You do realize that anyone named salad really loses the right
to make fun of other nics?

I was only poking fun....hence the flaming red devilgrin icon :eyes:

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Teddy_Salad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. Oh ya poor dear....
You don't even know what my U/N refers to, do ya?

Ya not as much of a comedian as ya think, are ya? :hi:
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. That's the same excuse Limbaugh uses
I was only joking around, blowing off some steam.... just saying :evilgrin:

Gotta add that grin just so you know I'M only joking :eyes:
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Amaya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
86. MAKE IT STOP!

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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
91. The whole "ideological purity" thing is just loaded language
that people use when they are unwilling or incapable of applying critical thought to other posters' criticism. For my 2 cents, it's indicative of a kind of groupthink mentality, which is a weakness, not a strength, on any discussion board.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #91
106. add to that: narcisstic and selfish
in my view, it's little different from the rw wisdom about why blacks voted for democrats in such large numbers. apparently the only black people who are "independent thinkers" vote republican :eyes:
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louis c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
94. I was talking to someone
just today, who says that they are voting Kerry only because they hate Bush.

I replied that was O.K., because this election is about just two guys. All Kerry has to be is better than Bush, not everyone on the planet.

Remember, Bush has to beat Kerry to be President. Therefore, he will only pump millions of dollars into negative ads against Kerry. Your not going to see negative ads against Gephardt, Dean, or Sharpton.

Kerry has flaws. Who doesn't. He's got experience, intelligence, courage, passion, drive, and a desire to win. He has a lot going for him. Instead of each of us looking for what's wrong with the guy, let's look for what's right with him.

We'll have at least four years to criticize him, but at least he'll listen to us.
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #94
102. You know why I'm voting for Kerry?
BECAUSE HE'S NOT BUSH!!!!!!
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
98. I am so like over this thread
that I am officially going to stop clicking on it now.

Like right now.

Now.

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #98
113. c'mon,gimme one more click
:D
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mellowinman Donating Member (540 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #98
115. Everyone who posted on this thread owes me $10.00
for the minutes of my life they wasted.

If this was serious, it got nothing accomplished.

If it was a joke, it was nowhere NEAR funny enough.

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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
117. NO and
uh...NO. x( :shrug: :evilgrin:
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
118. Locking.....
Calling people Kerrybots is inflammatory.



DU Moderator
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