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This speech by Granny D addresses those that bash Kerry incessantly

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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:59 PM
Original message
This speech by Granny D addresses those that bash Kerry incessantly
We are the selfish progressives when we think it is all about us. We require the perfect candidate who reflects our views precisely. If we cannot have such a candidate, we may not vote, or we may vote for someone who cannot win, just to show our support for our precious opinions. This grandstanding is more important to us than the lives of all the people who will die and be exploited if a fascist warmonger is elected because of our selfish narcissism.

The old joke is that the left forms its firing squad in a circle. The truth of that is in the selfish progressive's belief that politics is not for the practical advance of the common good, but is a showcase for personal sentiments. Progressive meetings take forever as all of us must fully expound our views on everything. It is such a bore when other people speak, and so wonderfully enlightening when we finally get a few hours to speak ourselves. It is, in other words, a monumentally selfish exercise much of the time.

I hope the Nader candidacy is not to become a meeting ground for such narcissism at the expense of other people's lives.

I am concerned about the future of the Green Party. My friends in the Greens tell me that they are building a party and that they must look to the long view. If they are right, here is the long view: ten to twenty years of party growth, during which the left vote will be split and the right wing will have the institutions of government all to themselves. Another ten to twenty years of equality between the Greens and the Dems, during which the right wing will have another era of unchallenged power. Then ten to twenty years when the Greens outpace the Dems, but the Dems are still a factor and the progressive vote is still split. So, say, thirty to sixty years before they can see some victories. Will there be anything like justice and liberty and nature left to work with by that time?

Do the Greens have a better scenario to meet the real and present danger to the planet? I do: let the progressives take over the Democratic party, whose doors are unlocked and whose halls are unguarded. That can be done in two to four years. If the energies of the Green Party were transferred to a Green Caucus within the Democratic Party, real progress would be possible quickly

It is time for the factions of the left to understand that, unless they have a practical strategy for early victory, they stand in the way of justice, of environmental protection, and of peace if they continue to split the progressive vote. If they can actually win elections in some areas, that is a different matter, of course.

If any fellow progressives are in the game only to hear themselves pontificate and wax eloquent about their wonderful values and their brilliant grasp of the issues--while others starve and die, I ask them to join Toastmasters where they can learn to make shorter, less boring speeches and also do no harm in the world. Politics is not about posturing, but about winning and losing and representing the interests of millions of people. When you take up the sword of politics, you play to win on behalf of your people, not to look pretty in your uniform.

That same narcissism that we of the left are particularly prone to, by the way, may be on display in the convention cities this summer. Millions of television viewers trying to decide whether or not to jump ship from the incumbent will look at the mess on the streets in Boston and New York and say, well, if I have to choose sides, I know I'm not on theirs. The conventions are a time for massive action, but it had better be well organized and designed to convey real information respectfully to the American people, or it will be a selfish and damaging exercise in adult play at the expense of thousands of lives and the environment. I urge those non-delegates going to the conventions to carry thoughtful signs designed not to show only their anger, but the truth. I urge young people to consider the conventions not as an opportunity for mayhem and fun, but for service to their country and their world by using their creativity to open, not close, the hearts of the millions of Americans who will be watching. Let's look good out there. It is not in protesting alone that we find our power, but in creating change in the hearts and minds of millions of Americans. We have the power to do this, because the facts are on our side and because most Americans do care about the air, water, forests and mountains of their world, and most Americans do not side with corruption and exploitation and greed. We can only enlarge our tent by attracting people into it through our earnestness and our ability to admirably represent truth and love.


http://grannyd.com/speech20040529.htm


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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. kick for the Kerry bashers that love to quote her
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
124. Kick for the narcissistic progressive movement!
:kick: :P
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Kat45 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good speech. Who is GrannyD? n/t
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. a progressive activist that many progressives like to quote when bashing
the Democratic party and Kerry..I figured since they admire her enough to quote her, maybe they'd actually read her sentiments concerning Nader, progressivism and the Green party in this election
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Kat45 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Thanks. Good idea.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. c'mon,name names
stop beating around the bush :D

I know one,who are the others that constitute this "many"?
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
83. they'll still bash Kerry NSMA
It doesnt matter to people that Kerry has been the most liberal member in the senate 5 times, that he has a more liberal record than Kennedy, and that his platform is actually quite liberal, its not perfect granted but its not exactly bushlite either.
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
70. Granny D
trotted across the USA on foot at the ripe old age of 80's something to wake people UP!

Go to her website Granny.com or grannyd.org or Google Granny D!
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. kick again
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
4. another kick
and bookmarked
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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. Tony Kushner has been more or less saying the same thing.
In other words, a major election is not the time to pat yourself on the back and preen over your moral purity. It's time to look at hard, cold facts and strategize accordingly.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. Thanks for posting this.
Granny D puts it all in perspective for us.
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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. Hear Hear!!
Wow, that's a great piece! Thanks for posting it and Thanks to Granny D.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. Two excellent threads on this topic today.
I'll be bookmarking for future reference....
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. it's a keeper and a handy quoter
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. Granny's suggestion here has already been rejected by the Dems.
Granny suggested that we "let the progressives take over the Democratic party." But we didn't do that, did we. Instead, the nomination went to a pro-war ticket, whose 2 members both support an unjustifiable war. Thus, Granny's suggestion has already been rendered moot. The Kerry ticket assures us that we won't even be able to hear an honest discussion of the war in the campaign - let alone get a chance to vote against it. In fact, Kerry is out there trying to convince ignoramuses who don't know any better, that the Iraq war is a vital American mission which "must be won."

If the Democrats had nominated a candidate with the integrity to boldly & forthrightly denounce the criminality of the war, that would be one thing. Then there would be reason to pitch in one last time, and support the predictably & congenitally spineless Democrats. But when the choice is one advocate of a criminal war against a full-fledged war criminal, it is not narcissism that will prevent real progressives from lifting a finger for Kerry. Rather, it is a deeply-felt nausea.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Intellectualism must be intertering with your reading skills
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 06:02 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
She states even that will take several years...just not the 60 years it will take if you persist in doing all you can to divide the vote on the left.

Just more of the typical childish need for instant gratification while ignoring the fact that it took 30 years to get this bad.

but she left this paragraph in there tailor made for you:

If any fellow progressives are in the game only to hear themselves pontificate and wax eloquent about their wonderful values and their brilliant grasp of the issues--while others starve and die, I ask them to join Toastmasters where they can learn to make shorter, less boring speeches and also do no harm in the world. Politics is not about posturing, but about winning and losing and representing the interests of millions of people. When you take up the sword of politics, you play to win on behalf of your people, not to look pretty in your uniform

Where shall I forward your Toastmaster's application?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. This is the 21st century
How long must we wait before GLBTs have the same rights and privileges of heteros, including marriage?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Probably another millenium of GWB gets re-elected
Name me a Republican on a national level that has done more for GLBT rights than Kerry...can you?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. We are discussing the post-ABB post-election period
Let's see President Kerry stand up for full equal rights for GLBTs, including gay marriage.

Should a state deny a license to people on the basis of sexual orientation? If it is okay for a state to do so on a marriage license, it can also do so with a teaching license.

You are a lawyer, figure it out!
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Yes I am a lawyer..a state can't do so with a teaching license
because there is already precedent by the Supreme Court saying they can't...do you think that if GWB gets to appoint the next USSCJ there will be such precedent?
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
86. And the silence is deafening
.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #86
123. Actually it's quite refreshing
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Kerry supports giving all rights of heteroexuals to gay couples
but he knows that the term "gay marriage" is something most people oppose and something republicans can easily use to gain political support and in the process deny all rights to gay couples.

kerry supports giving them the same rights, and with time the term "marriage" may one day be acceptable also.

you can complain about politicians all you want but it still comes down to voters.

even in california which is usually very liberal on social issues like abortion rights voted for an anti gay proposition by a large amount. and all the top democratic officials were against it also. they even ran ads to show they opposed it. even clinton and gore opposed it. yet california voted for it by a huge amount.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. The issue is a state license
not a religious ceremony which clearly falls under the First Amendment.

BTW, Reform Jewish rabbis want to perform same-sex marriage ceremonies. Why should they be forced to adopt the intolerant views of Xtians about GLBTs?
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. tell that to the voters
why not work on convincing people to get them to support same sex marriage ? i never said they should be forced to accept intolerant views. it's just the way people see things. robert byrd told atheists to leave the country when the california court ruled the pledge was unconstitutional because of the "under god" which they said violated the separation of church and state.

but kerry's views are still progressive as he wants to give something that gays and lesbians don't have currently. and that is the same rights as hetero married couples.

but if the term "marriage" is that important to some that it's worth not voting for someone even though that person does support the actual rights then i guess they should not vote for kerry. but i know a lot of people who think what kerry supports is enough to get them to vote for him.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
54. You are wasting your time.
All your facts and arguments will be ignored, and some red herring will be offered in mockery of a discussion.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
66. There is a whiff of "separate but equal" in the air
and it stinks as much as segregation did!
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. see post 26
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
76. this quote:
"to hear themselves pontificate and wax eloquent about their wonderful values and their brilliant grasp of the issues--while others starve and die.."

Fits Kerry's speech to back Bush to a t.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #14
77. If
Democrats continue to triangulate the Republican theme and voters are pelted from both the Left and the Right that progressive views are "unelectible" or fostering class wars, where is the choice? When voters are instructed and politicians demonstrate that liberalism is something to be shunned and voters are herded into voting against their own economic interests or manipulated by fear that military arrogance equals patriotism, where is the choice? When progressives are attacked but then their allegiance is demanded, while those who continue to champion the progressive message are attacked, where is the choice?

Where is the choice when there is never a choice? It has to start somewhere, but will it ever start as long as everyone is so easily herded with someday promises while we continue, in the meantime, to move backwards?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #77
99. Then choose your candidate who cannot win and lose it all
and stop acting under the pretense that the left gets nothing...every right that the Dems have preserved this last 4 years and MOST of them were under attack...unions, the environment, right wing judges, etc...is a WIN for the left....what do you want? A box of chocolates too?
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. Because that's who the voters picked
One more so-called progressive who can't stand it when the democratic process doesn't work out their way.

I know! Why don't you blame it on the DLC?
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Response -
- First of all, if Bush wins in November, & some Republican gloats to you "Aww, tough bananas. Another Democrat who can't stand it when the democratic process doesn't work out their way!" -- will you think he's made a clever point?

- Second, it isn't exactly true that I "can't stand it," that the Democrats have chosen a disgraceful sellout like Kerry. That is, I don't begrudge the voters their democratic rights. However, it is a clear signal to me that I very definitely no longer support the Democratic Party.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. sorry, but he isn't
i consider myself a progressive and i worked hard for kerry as many other i know did. he is not a disgraceful sellout. he is a good man and we saw how hard he works and continues to.

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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Then you're a better man than others
There are several people here at DU who claim that Kerry was installed by some conspiracy of the DLC and possibly others. I assumed, from your comments, that you were just another one. My apologies if this is not the case.

As to your assertion that Kerry is a "sellout," that's an opinion, and so it's impossible to flat out say "you're wrong." However, I do think that such an opinion is not well-grounded in fact; my opinion, I suppose.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
16. "let the progressives take over the Democratic party"
Sounds like a hell of an idea to me, but I think Ms Haddock is probably more than a little optimistic about both the openness of the party and the time frame.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Really? So how did Howard and Dennis enjoy their careers?
Are there any Greens that have made even the splash that those two did?

What have the greens accomplished...even on a statewide basis? What results do they have? Any worth noting?
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I think you misunderstand me, Teena
I'm not talking about the Greens, I'm talking about the willingness of the Democratic establishment to be overtaken by progressives. Or do you mean to suggest that Dean and Kucinich signal the unlocked doors and unguarded halls?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. No I meant there are far more progressives in the Dem party
than many people care to admit. Dean and Kucinich simply represent the presidential candidates..and as I said to someone yesterday...why BLAME the Dems for candidates such as Breaux and Landrieu? Are they not representative of their states? Is zig zag Zell not representative of many people in yours? If you WANT progressive members in congress, all it takes is to do the elbow grease.

IF the door is REALLY shut on progressives, how did Loretta Sanchez, or Mc Dermott, or any of a number of Dem progressives from congress get elected?

People who sympathize with the Greens and progressive causes would do themselves far better to get their energy into the STATES that are bringing us ALL down the most...
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I KNOW there are.
They're not the ones, however, that set the direction of the party. They simply aren't.

Is zig zag Zell not representative of many people in yours?

Sure, but we normally call them "Republicans".

If you WANT progressive members in congress, all it takes is to do the elbow grease.

Including protecting progressive incumbents from attacks by their own party. :)
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Hey I was on your side in that one
and I agree with what you said about Zell...but again...wouldn't your efforts BE BEST spent in getting Georgia back on track? (and while I agreed with you on MCKinney...the open primary and the manner in which it was rigged in GA didn't help much, no?)
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. best spent - as opposed to what? I'm voting for Kerry
and supporting the best other candidates I can already. All else is issues.

Statewide, I don't see a whole lot to be done about GA in the short or mid term - the extent to which we're able to do anything down here will likely be limited to DeKalb and Atlanta proper. Too many yahoos out in the suburbs and further. Of course, that doesn't mean that we quit fighting.

I entirely agree about our open primary stupidity, but the fact remains that Republicans in this district are in the minority and would not have been able to work the thing had the party not turned its back on McKinney.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. I'm sorry Uly....damn message boards
The "you" in that sentence was the rhetorical "you" i.e. those dissatisfied and wanting to take effective action...not you personally...and BTW..your brand of dissatisfaction does not bother me because you usually offer remedies not incessant complaints void of any remedies...
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. when either of them is the democratic nominee
perhaps this will make some sense.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. well at least they both demonstrated they could get elected to AN office
which is more than most Greens have accomplished thus far.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. are either of them the DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL nominee?
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 06:52 PM by noiretblu
perhaps that is why Greens and Independents are running a candiate FOR PRESIDENT. let's not pretend we don't know why some people have left and are leaving the democratric party, and it's not because they are selfish and narcissitic.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Knowing they don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of winning
Oh yeah..and let's not forget taking Repub money to help themselves...they are either naive or apparatchiks...which do you think?
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. i repeat: are either of them the nominee?
the people you trot out to prove...what? when THEY CAN GET NOMINATED, perhaps i will consider returing to the fold. until then, i will likely vote for kerry anyway...since i am a purist.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #44
52. well if you are voting for Kerry anyway, why are we arguing?
I don't care if you don't like him...and I hope you do hold his feet to the fire...but he is FAR more deserving of the highest office in the land than who is in there now..and I frankly think he will surprise you more pleasantly than you perceive to be the case.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. It is an ongoing source of amazement to me
that people will 'threaten' to 'hold Kerry's feet to the fire' after he is elected.



FOLKS! That's what the people are supposed to do in a democracy! So what else is new? lol




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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #52
82. well, i am a green party member
some of us are pure.
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divineorder Donating Member (513 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #44
115. Dean will at least be able to get something accomplished
Health care for many more, many more Democrats elected, a second chance to run for President. The Greens will not get even close in my lifetime to any of this
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. thanks, ms cleo.
:hi: nice to see your crystal ball is working. tell me...which parts of the green party platform are objectionable to you?
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
28. "We can only enlarge our tent by attracting
through our earnestness and our ability to admirably represent truth and love."
hey granny d: telling people they are selfish and narcisstic...is that truth or love? thanks.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Truth is love...and setting the electorate up for 4 more years of Bush
by dividing the left, especially in swing states and wanting instant gratification rather than working toward the eventual pull back over time is selfish and narcissistic...
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. what;'s selfish and narcissitic
is attempting to shame, bully, etc people into voting for your candidate by calling it truth or love. the truth is: people still have the right to vote for whomever the choose....end of story. personally, i wish more folks would appeal to those selfish, narcisstic assholes on the right.
perhaps the light of truth and love is just the salve they need to do the right thing and vote as you think they should. good luck.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Oh come ON!
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 07:08 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
Why would the right answer appeals to truth and love...they use religion to spread hatred and selfishness...the foundation of their entire political theory IS narcissism.

The left however CLAIMS to give a shit about the poor and disabled..the environment and living wages...flawed as Clinton was...were the poor better off or worse than now? Was the environment better off or worse than now (think logging in forrests, roads in national parks, clean water and air act attempted to be gutted, and mining), was the number of people living under the poverty level higher or lower? Were people making MORE money or less? Were unions MORE protected or less?

Yes...TO DIVIDE the vote by a small percentage just enough to allow the other side to win is selfish, narcissistic, short sighted, and naive...sorry that creates so much animosity..but that IS the reality.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. please...wtf about disenfranchisment?
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 07:20 PM by noiretblu
those are votes that were completely lost...with no official response from the party that lost them. how much longer do you think people are going to continue voting for a party that won't even defend its votes and voters.
will that be nader's fault (again) in 2004? of course, since THAT IS ALLOWED...that's a great reason to demand other people's votes.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Did Kerry not assemble a legal team to arm against vote fraud
I have no defense for the disenfranchisement..did Nader address it during the recount too?
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. what about GORE?
537 vote difference...people purged from the rolls. nah...it's nader's fault. something tells me: that won't fly again. at least kerry is making noises about that...not that i give him any props for that. it should have been of concern in 2000.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. and was the media covering it? Have they yet?
You just noted that Dean did not win the nomination...don't many who supported him believe the media made him out to be crazy? Was the voter disenfranchisement proven well enough with a media crowing for Bush to demonstrate that it occurred? I agree it was a travesty...I also agree with those that feel that the media playing Dean's scream 700 times harmed him....


I am not excusing that there was NOT effective action taken on that one..the best Kerry can do is to make sure it doesn't happen going forward...now...what has Bush done to insure that AA's votes are counted? Anything? Why has Nader won your allegiance? What has HE done?
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #51
87. There's only one defense for Nadir
and that's attacking the Dems.

There once was a time when people would actually defend Nader. Now, they just attack the Dems
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #28
58. You know, sometimes they call the truth, tough love.
Like, being honest with those you love when they are screwing up.

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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
29. Thanks, nsma, and Granny D!!!

Its very sad when intelligent progressives act stupid.

Instead of whining here about Kerry's imperfections, why not write him a letter and tell him what you most want him to address in his presidency? Help him see what he has spoken of already that you support and what you feel he is ignoring. If enough of us did this, we could nudge him to the left.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
36. What exactly does Kerry bashing mean?
I am a progressive - not that there's a little card or t-shit with that club. But I mean that my views about what is best for the nation are generally reflected by principles and values most frequently defined as "very liberal" or progressive.

I am a democrat because there are two parties in this country. One comes closer to representing my beliefs than the other. I would like to see the rise of third parties into powerful positions in politics. I think breaking up the two party monopoly would be a good thing. But I don't believe the place to start that reform is in the race to the white house. I wrote a long piece on this a while back called, "The Future of Progressivism is Not in the White House." I believe that real change like that has to be build first from the ground up.

Having said all of that, I DO NOT agree with many of Kerry's positions. They do not go nearly far enough in many instances, and they go in the wrong direction completely in other instances. Is that bashing? Or is that just honest reflection? Surely you're not asking all of us here on DU - a discussion forum after all, to be a bunch of goose-stepping yes people?

The irony of all of this, is you expressed the same sentiment in the other thread. But I go over to the People for Change Boards and those guys get infuriated by me sometimes. Why? Because I am frequently extremely critical of the kind of senseless reactionary bloviating rhetoric that goes on over there in the name of "progressive reform." I also get a lot of heat for constantly defending my unwavering commitment to vote for Kerry against Bush this fall.

Let us PLEASE be very CAREFUL with the "bashing" card. I am indeed critical of many things about Mr. Kerry. But in the very spirit of the article you quoted, I am also able to understand that life is not made up of either/or situations. Standing firm by ideological convictions is important, but not losing grasp on reality is also important. In striving for something of a "practical idealism" I vote for Kerry because I believe I appreciate the practical disaster of a second Bush term, while also remaining committed to the ideals of my progressivism and speaking out about them.

When Kerry gets elected I will do nothing more or less than hold him accountable for me personally to my standards of what I believe to be morally right. I hope to celebrate his successes for the things that are right, and also not just "speak" but act out in participating with my local agencies when he acts in ways that I believe run contrary to my passionate beliefs. The difference between Bush and Kerry for me is that 100% of what Bush does runs against my ideological beliefs and only 75% of what Kerry seems to indicate he will do (and what I am reasonably certain he will do based on the current trends in the party) runs against my ideological beliefs. So Kerry is the better choice. But that doesn't mean I don't dream of a day when the Democratic party could feel like the Democratic party again.

The only difference between me and some is that I believe in change from within. I don't necessarily want to go join a third party. I want to change my party back to what I personally believe to be its roots and find a way to convince folks that an honest guts platform of progressivism that stands in start contrast to the other guys can in fact win if done right.

Hope that makes sense there, NSMA.
Sel
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. OK for the sake of these conversations, allow me to offer up my
interpretation:

When someone is not comfortable with all of his positions, I think that is completely fair game and healthy. When someone says they are disappointed that he won't immediately withdraw from Iraq..that is FAIR GAME.

The following posts to me are Kerry BASHING:

Kerry is just another corporatist.

Kerry is Bush Lite.

Kerry is another elitist Skull and Boneser
Kerry is going to forward the PNAC agenda

Kerry wants to "stay the course"

Kerry is going to draft your kid.

BTW... I will get back to your post on the other thread and I was not meaning to direct all of that at you...I chose my words poorly.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #41
53. I appreciate that interpretation.
And I share it. I've felt, more and more, that DU is walking a fine line with this. It's made me uncomfortable enough to avoid most posts having anything to do with Kerry or the general election. Not in the real world, of course. In the real world, I'm surrounded by republicans, and I'm talking up Kerry as the best choice on the ticket in November. But here, surrounded by fellow democrats, I'd like to be able to talk about what I'm not happy with. It's a fact; there are things about Kerry that I'm not comfortable with. I should be able to discuss them without the "bashing" label. That isn't happening in many cases. Bashing happens on both sides of the fence dividing the Kerry fans from the rest of the Kerry voters here at DU.

It seems like we all have better ways to spend our time.







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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #41
57. I think you're right simply because of the way those things are said...
One of the things that bothers me about certain other sites I visit is the all or nothing sloganism without anything of substance.

But, if someone was to post something that says "Kerry is too beholden to the agenda of corporations at the expense of ordinary people. Here's why I say that and how I see that is being true. Here is how he could be different, here's how I would like to encourage him and the democratic party to consider a different perspective, etc" I don't think that is bashing so much.

Honestly, I think it all has to do with the spirit in which the statements are made. People that run in and say little sloganistic cliche one liners and then run out again are completely irrelevant and frustrating to those of us really struggling to figure out how to do what's right, choose what's right, and fight for what's right. People that are so angry that the can do nothing but make cliche negative generalizations with little substance or specifics and without attachment to a complimentary POSITIVE message of alternative change also contribute little of value to the public arena. And I can definitely understand where the frustrating comes from when encountering those people.

I would like to see myself more like a healthy antagonist. I see myself as firmly "within" the political system and this party. But I also deeply desire to work toward a day when progressive perspectives have a much stronger voice in national politics. One final point I should make is to say that making some critical observations about Kerry or the party is not designed to tear the party down, and their not just to advance some particular agenda. Well, yes it is, but I guess I'm trying to say that it isn't arbitrary or shallow for me - I didn't just pick a position for convenience and I don't know argue for that position as a kind of pastime hobby.

I am convinced down to the core of my being that progressive perspectives are socially, politically and morally right. The are the best, and only way toward a better, healthier hopeful tomorrow. I couldn't agree more with you that it is going to be a LONG HARD PROCESS that doesn't have any short term easy solutions - not voting against bush by voting for Kerry is a misguided and pseudo commitment to "ideals" which actually disservice those ideals severely in the long run. But I believe what I believe because I am so convinced it is right, and I want to do what I can in organizing, persuading, and activism to push the party and the American people in that direction.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. I've gotta be short because of work demands
I read your whole post and would caution on one point...not everything progressives promote work..I believe the political process and debate depends on ALL perspectives even conservative ones.

Progressives have done a great many things but for instance, social engineering and forced sterilizations were a NOT so good result that came out of the last progressive era and caused great harm to people and were used in a racist manner AND a sexist manner...I don't ever put all my eggs in one basket where policy is concerned.

And thanks..I meant no ill will in the other thread by you and will do my best to return to it...now if I don't get my work done I can't take my vacation :-)
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. That's why I balk just a little at saying "I'm a progressive" as though...
I carry a card or something.

I wish I could just say "I'm me" and have eveyrone in the world know exactly where I stood on everything. :D

Thanks for all your comments.
Sel
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #41
64. What's wrong with holding Kerry to Kerry's own standards?
Kerry asked, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?".

http://www.vietnamwar.com/JohnKerryVietnamVeteransAgain...

When someone says they are disappointed that he won't immediately withdraw from Iraq..that is FAIR GAME.

The old Kerry poignantly asked a previous Congress if they would be the ones to "ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake." Iraq was a mistake. "Stay the course" in Iraq is the same Nixonian "peace with honor" bullshit that got so many people killed.

BTW, this has nothing to do with the election. We all know that if Bush wins, he will be invading Iran and Syria next!
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #64
74. You're so into arguing with me you didn't notice I said there was
nothing wrong with that.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
47. It's Simple. It's Either John Kerry or George Bush for Four Years. Choose.
Thanks NSMA for bringing this here. Excellent observations and comments, indeed.

I do think that most Greens will be voting for Kerry in November.

The narcissism and duplicity is really now coming from a single source: Ralph Nader.

In any event, the choice is now a clear one:

Do you prefer George W. Bush or John Kerry to be President of the United States until 2009?

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #47
65. No one wants Bush, but...
our vote for Kerry in November does not mean we are going to be there in January supporting the Kerry Administration if it decides to keep PATRIOT Act, continue the occupation of Iraq, deny the human right of marriage to same sex couples, and persist on the path to globalization and imperial military adventures.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #65
79. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Granny D said we must take over
the party from "with-in" and the grass roots is powerful enough to do so now. This is the first time in recent history that the left has a real position to bargain within the party because Kerry has raised FAR more money from "We the people" then from corporate donations.

So as they say:

Carpe diem! ;)

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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
49. Not to be biased here, though I am... what a f*cking great post!
And how could anyone not see the big picture here? Unless there are inflitrators here determined to keep Bush in office. Damn.
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
55. BRAVO! n/t
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
61. I LOVE Granny D!
A Dk supporter to boot... saying what needs to be said about this crucial campaign.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
62. Hey, I'm a recovering Deaniac
but Kerry is now the man.

So to the whinners, deal with it or don't, bitch or don't, cry about nader or don't.

But don't be surprised when others tell you to shut the hell up.

thanks for this post NSMA, and especially the Granny D quotes!

Smart woman, that GrannyD!

RL
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. you're welcome
:thumbsup:
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
67. I Love Granny D but ...
this speech is most unfortunate ...

in the interest of brevity, and fatigue, here are a few of my key objections:

1. just because someone is a Green does not mean that they are bashing Kerry and it certainly does not mean that they don't plan to vote for Kerry ... bush has got to go ... many Greens with vision, including the Greens' presidential nominee, understand that ... let's give some credit where credit is due ...

2. Granny makes a sad link between "pontification" and narcissism and progressives who have left the party ...

3. Granny dismissed the "long term" view just a little too quickly and did not accurately represent the problems that progressive dems have encountered within the party ... there's no denying that the conventional wisdom argues for ignoring the left (i.e. keeping them and their issues out of public view) and running towards the center ...

I have no specific argument with Granny's pragmatic view that if you don't win, you have no power and many in need will continue to suffer ... but surely there must be another side to that story ... what have we won if we do not lead the nation according to our most deeply held values?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. OK but let's take a closer look at that
1. just because someone is a Green does not mean that they are bashing Kerry and it certainly does not mean that they don't plan to vote for Kerry ... bush has got to go ... many Greens with vision, including the Greens' presidential nominee, understand that ... let's give some credit where credit is due ...

I agree..and I do my best to distinguish which Green I am addressing..if someone doesn't like Kerry but will vote for him in the interest of insuring that we don't all get hurled back into the dark ages...great....not all candidates make me happy...it is reality to know one must choose.


2. Granny makes a sad link between "pontification" and narcissism and progressives who have left the party ...


I completely disagree with you here. Since I have been on DU I have seen Greens blame the Dems entirely for the turn the country has taken, for unions losing their power, for people not making a living wage...but DAMN NEAR every year during the Clinton admin, the Dems waged a war to raise the mimimum wage.

As far as the unions weakening, they elected their own ineffective or corrupt (in some instances) leadership and the right to work laws were mostly on the ballots in every state where they passed...SOOOO what's that tell you? That tells you the public voted to harm themselves...why blame the Dems for all that ills us?

3. Granny dismissed the "long term" view just a little too quickly and did not accurately represent the problems that progressive dems have encountered within the party ... there's no denying that the conventional wisdom argues for ignoring the left (i.e. keeping them and their issues out of public view) and running towards the center ...

Again, I assert it depends on the issue..on welfare reform I am right there with you..it was a horrible program but again every year after it passed there was an attempt at clean up legislation and it was effectively blocked by Republicans.

Dems in California are not to blame for the Zell Millers, John Breaux's and Landrieu's of the world. Ironically some of the most virulent anti Dem posts come from people in those states...maybe if they acted locally? Ya THINK?

And which issues have been kept out?

Frankly, I think the last 4 years have been an enigma of sorts in that we were attacked...people went into fear mode and whoever appeals to the public's need to have a nice warm enema after getting the shit scared out of them wins.

BTW...while I appreciate MUCH of the social justice promoted by the left, I would no more care to cater to the far left than the far right....most of what we are suffering from right NOW at this moment in America is an extremist agenda.

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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #68
85. Electing progressives won't necessarily give you
a scenario where we cater to the far left. At this point, I think getting more lefties in office to counter-balance the extreme RWers in power now would make a better go of getting balanced policies. Putting more moderates in power might, at best, give us slightly more moderate right-wing policies, unles those moderates are like Dean and will fight tooth and nail for what is right. :shrug:
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #68
105. striving for consensus with you
it seems we agree on my point #1 ... i'm glad ... there are Greens with clear vision and Greens with poor vision just as there are Dems with clear vision and Dems with poor vision ...

on point #2, you indicated that you disagree with me ... but I had trouble seeing how what you wrote responded to the point I made ... you spoke in some detail about DU Greens blaming Dems for the turn the country has taken ... whether accurate or not, it did not seem responsive to the point I made ... my statement was that Granny should not link Greens and progressives who left the party with "pointification" and narcissism ... I made no defense of Greens who criticized Democrats inappropriately ...

i start from the point of view of respecting those who disagree with me ... why place such labels on those who choose a different strategy to bring about a more progressive future ... do some Dems not pontificate? are some Dems not narcissistic? I was critical of Granny's statement because I think it lacked a sensitivity to those who have left the party ... perhaps these people, rightly or wrongly, have concluded that they have no voice in a party that regularly votes for issues they disagree with ... it seems we would all be better served by hearing them out and trying to find common ground ... namecalling is rarely an effective form of persuasion ...

perhaps when viewing my second point as I intended it, you will agree with me ... perhaps not ...

and then on to point #3 ... here it seems we have at least some agreement ... you cited the Dems position on welfare reform ... i agree with what you wrote on this ... perhaps I could offer additional issues where I am very discouraged with the Democratic party ... my short list: Iraq, the WTO, election reform, corporate welfare ... i wonder how likely it will be that the convention would showcase democrats who call for a Department of Peace or call for substantial cuts to the military budget ... the essence of point #3 was not to argue any specific issue but rather to highlight the reality that the current political strategy chooses to emphasize the centrists or even right of center in the party ... and the left is kept in the attic like an uncle who's gone "a little off" ... it's not about arguing the issues one way or the other; it's about inclusion and exclusion ...

as to your last paragraph, I strongly disagree ... I would certainly prefer a far left agenda to a far right agenda ... there is nothing wrong with radical change if it is change for the better ... you seem to be arguing that there is some "automatic virtue" to be a middle-of-the-road, i'm so balanced, centrist ... I see no reason to support this point of view ... I would suggest that this country has been stuck in the center for a very long time ... you don't need to convince me about the right-wing extremist agenda ... but by and large, we've been stuck in the middle ... and I see a country that builds its policies around serving the wealthiest corporate shareholders ... if it's to be labelled an extreme left view to call for radical changes to a system that gives all its power to the very wealthiest among us, and I believe our system ultimately does that no matter what democratic pretense it makes, so be it ... but that's where I'm at ... as long as we have a system that puts profits before people, i'm calling for radical change ...
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
71. At this point
progressives have to vote Democratic and get a change in Congress as well. We will also, once we get them to the furnace, have to hold their feet to the fire to get the train going in the right direction and not a delay in going off the tracks.

"Do the Greens have a better scenario to meet the real and present danger to the planet? I do: let the progressives take over the Democratic party, whose doors are unlocked and whose halls are unguarded. That can be done in two to four years. If the energies of the Green Party were transferred to a Green Caucus within the Democratic Party, real progress would be possible quickly"

The Greens have a better scenario but not a chance to get voted in at this point. Whenever possible and when not against Democrats, for example if one isn't running, like a state senate seat, a Green should run.


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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
72. "We require the perfect candidate..."
Party propaganda.
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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
73. Hellooooo GrannyD!
Thank you for this.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. you're welcome
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October Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
78. Kick for Granny D
:kick:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
80. Here's to Granny D!
:toast:
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gasperc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
81. whose doors are unlocked and halls unguarded
doesn't that speak volumes, in the sense that the GOP figured out how to fracture our once formidible coalition of unions, environmentalists, social activists and economic reformers
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
84. I guess Granny's forgotten that progressives have been trying for the
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 12:32 PM by GreenPartyVoter
last 4 decades to pull the party to the left. And yet the DNC has moved further right instead. :shrug:

I think I'll drop her a line and tell her about election reform and how multi-party democracies work.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #84
88. She didn't say "pull the party to the left"
the left should take over the party
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Good luck with that. Hasn't happened yet in 40 years of heading rightward
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. because of leftists like you
who won't even try because they're too busy criticizing
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. Gosh, you know me so well. Tell me more about myself, please.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #89
101. I think you don't know your history from your histrionics
Medicare was created during the last 40 years. Banking laws were changed so that women getting divorced would have the credit generated during their marriages in the last 40 years. For the last 30 plus years, Democrats have protected a woman's right over her reproductive health, clean air and clean water initiatives were created by Dems, Americans with Disabilities act and the Family Leave act were DEM programs (Bush 41 only signed ADA as he had no choice) All the pollution regulation laws from the 70's were signed by NIXON as Dems forced their will on him.

Now...what has Nader (who you often seem to defend) accomplished since...say...the late 70's? When he HAD an opportunity to pay his own employees at Public Citizen a living wage (i.e. put his money where his mouth is) he didn't. When HIS workers wanted to unionize, he blocked it.

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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. Trying to hold ground is good, breaking new ground is better.
I think if we had more Howard Deans and Dennis Kuciniches, we'd see a change for the better in this nation.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. Did you read the post?
Or is that more reactionism?

nsma listed several accomplishments that occured in the last two decades, a time frame when the Dems supposedly morphed into the repukes, according to some.

And you totally ignored them. I guess the facts don't count for much with some people
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #103
107. But compared to what was accomplished under FDR
they aren't so huge. Important, of course, but not a very long list.

And considering how much ground the Dems have given way during this term of the worst "leader" to ever take the Oval office (Patriot act, Medicare, Iraq War Resolution anyone?) maybe you might want to reset the standards of your party.

Raise the bar, so to speak.

Just sayin'.

(Feel free to slam me or the Greens or what-not. You can go right ahead. It won't keep me from voting for Kerry. I am not a "take my ball and go home" sort of voter.)
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #107
109. Gee, I guess you won't even defend yourself
I just said that you ignored the accomplishments of the last two decades, and instead of trying to refute it, you switch to another argument without any acknowledgment of your "mistake"

First it was "the Dems did nothing", and now it's "the Dems didn't do enough"

If you won't stand by your own arguments, no one else will either.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. And I pointed out that the ground lost amounted to more
than those accomplishments overall.

Now, that is a subjective view. I can't quantify that any more than you can quantify the idea that they have done "well". It depends on the standards of each person to determine that.

You are satisfied with your party and what it has done over the last few decades. I am happy for you. Enjoy.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #110
111. Why won't you defend yourself?
You ignored the facts that nsma pointed out which directly refuted your claims. You wouldn't have a problem admitting you made a mistake, would you?

You are satisfied with your party and what it has done over the last few decades. I am happy for you. Enjoy.

And you are obviously unhappy that I caught onto your "mistake", and are raising point after point in the hopes it will distract me from pointing out that you made a mistake and still have not acknowledged it, which would be the honorable thing to do.

Enjoy
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. All right. I admit I should have said from the get-go that the dems
didn't do enough over the last 40 years during the right-ward march. I ought to have given credit where credit was due and said they they managed to do a few things.

So I apologize for the lack of clarity in my post and the confusion it plunged you into.

So sorry.

Now where is your apology for your party's lack of spine the last 3 years, cause I haven't seen it yet. You got all hung up on my "mistake".
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. And oh, you still haven't told me all about myself
as I requested futher up the thread, when you started flinging accusations about "leftists like you".

So, what DO you know about me anyway? Would you even know me if you passed me on the street?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #102
106. Baloney....show me ANYTHING Howard or Dennis could accomplish
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 05:19 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
with both lower houses controlled by Republicans.

I have worked in the field of policy for over 22 years. The Democratic party HAS always had interests competing with one another...what the environmentalists might be pleased by might harm the unions ( a great example is CAFE standards) BTW...when Dennis voted for the flag amendment or voted against a woman's right to choose...was he really doing better than his colleagues on THOSE matters? When Dean negotiated a business development deal behind the backs of environmentalists in VT and locked them out was he REALLY doing better than most Dems? My point isn't to bash them but to raise the spectre of their imperfections as well...even though I raise that spectre...had they won the nomination I would NOT behave like a childish little brat...or as GB Shaw out it..."a selfish heaping clod of ailments complaining that the world will not devote itself to making me happy."

On that which the Dems have held the line the past few years, I give them credit. Am I happy with every vote they've placed or every stand they've taken? NO.

On the other hand, the manner in which this admin has manipulated and bullied thier way to policy was like hurling turds out of a tennis ball machine at 90 miles an hour non stop...I would LOVE to see anyone stand up to it consistently...after living through it...they were aided by a VERY biased pro war anti consumer media as well.

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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. Believe me, I would LOVE to send Kerry to the WH with a Blue
Hill. But even then, will the dems step up?

And no, no candidate is perfect. Of course we can all agree on that. But yes, overall I do think Dennis is preferable to Kerry. Just my thoughts on that. As to Dean, I am well aware of his history. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he has turned over a new leaf.

Am giving Kerry the benefit of the doubt too. For now. Will see if he still gets my vote in '08, though. Depends on what he accomplishes in office and who runs against him.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #108
112. Will the Dems stand up to what?
For the most part the party has stood up...we are stuck with a few Dems from mostly red states such as Evan Bayh, Zell Miller who votes with Repubs most of the time, BReaux and Landrieu...and others in congress with similar districts...again...the populace plays a large part of it as well.

And 08 is a long way away...but for the most part I have seen people judge Kerry on three votes which occurred during the most unique of times:

The Patriot Act..which even Wellstone voted for.

NCLB..which was NOT funded (even though the program itself stinks and leads to kids being PUSHED out of schools)

and IWR...a resolution which was voted on after a few turncoats..Lieberman, Bayh and Gep...undermined Biden/Lugar...even WITH or WITHOUT those votes...Bush would have gone to war...he was hell bent on war...the only thing the resolution did was make the start of the war more predictable.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. They happened at unique times, so they don't count
Kinda like "He was only in office for less than a year, so he couldn't do anything about the terra-ists."

You forgot Daschle on your list. While he is a nice enough guy, he is not cut out for a leadership role.

As I said before, don't worry about me voting for Kerry, he's still better than the theif-in-chief.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #112
118. not on disenfranchisment, and not on the coup
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 06:10 PM by noiretblu
it's great that gore has spoken out recently, though.
i pray to god it doesn't come to that again...but it very well may. if i was a member of bush, inc i wouldn't be intimidated by kerry's lawyers.
i think a *direct* plea to greens, independents and others would be more effective:

Since we know republicans will purposely disenfranchise otherwise eligible voters (through purges, intimidation, black box voting, faulty equipment in certain precincts, etc and so on), democrats need as many votes as possible to make up for those disappeared votes.

I think this plea has chance of working...it works for me.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. I am praying you are right and that we can come up with enough votes
to make up for the hijinks of the junta!

God help * if it goes to the Supreme Court again. I don't think Americans will put up with that 2 times in a row.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. i certainly hope not too, but i'm not optimistic eom
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #118
122. I am fine with making direct pleas
But if you've read the board..the relationship from both directions has hardly been rooted in requests..while I share some guilt..it's most definitely a two way street.
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West Coast Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
91. My sentiments exactly! No one candidate can be all things...
to all people. It's absolutely impossible.

But if anyone feels that Kerry has the wrong stance about something, they should feel free to contact him (in a non-hateful way to get the best results).
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. I've contacted him. If I get an answer, I will post it on my website. :^)
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West Coast Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. Well I've had members of congress respond to my emails and letters...
You can also work for a political group that lobbies for a particular issue. I've done this also. If you can personally set up meetings with elected officials, you can usually get better results.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. I get replies from Snowe, Collins, and Michaud all the time
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 01:22 PM by GreenPartyVoter
but Kerry is very busy just now and a lot of people want a piece of him. Not sure I will get much more than a form letter back, if that.

There are groups that are also working on election reform, so I do support them as best I can.

As far as meeting with Kerry, that doesn't seem too likely at this juncture, unless he take a vacation or campaigns in my town. :)
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West Coast Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. Wait until he's elected President...
and you could try to set up a meeting with one of his aides.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. I could try. Will be setting up petitions, too.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #91
96. even Kucinich wasnt that
remember the disagreements with his flag burning amendment support, I for one think he's better than Kerry on most issues, but in this case Kerry is better than Kucinich on, he thinks a flag burning amendment is wrong. Not dissing Kucinich but pointing out that you'll disagree with any candiate on just about anything. People should try contacting Kerry, its not like he shuns people, remember he did meet with Nader to address Nader's concerns and he obviously is doing his homework on election reform.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #96
104. Someone asked Kucinich about that on a radio show in Seattle
He said that one of his brothers is permanently institutionalized as a result of experiences during the Vietnam war. This brother has paid no attention to his political career at all, except for the one time that he requested that Dennis support this amendment.

Understandable, but also a very good illustration of why making public policy directly from gut reactions is a very bad idea.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
100. It's a hard rain agonna fall. eom
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
121. Very true....eom
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
125. kick
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