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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:43 PM
Original message
Will all the Kerry haters & disrupters just please leave
I don't know what your game is here (well actually I do) & it ain't working. Why DU puts up with it like they do I'll never know.

It's plain & simple Kerry is the Democratic nominee. That is not going to change! Kerry is what we have to work with to defeat Bush!
that is not going to change.

Kerry/Edwards is our only salvation right now & if you don't like it, don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Please don't feed the trolls
.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. well, some of those lil guys are hungry
:D

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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Let them eat sh*t
They're already rolling in it
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. Squash the dissention!!
Please, Big Brother, save us from those who disagree!
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I will pounce on any one who would stop Kerry from beating Bush
Have a nice day.
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. I know
I am glad to see DUers subscribing to the "With us or against us" Policy. It makes us look symapthetic toward non-mainstream views and really rallies undecideds to the democrat's corner.

/sarcasm
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Yep, the entire nation watches DU
with bated breath
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Well I hope those who do watch
don't your post.
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. I love it when they post anti-Nader threads
Its like getting an education on the social dynamics of a single-party system.

Lots of fun!

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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
84. granny D says
We are the selfish progressives when we think it is all about us. We require the perfect candidate who reflects our views precisely. If we cannot have such a candidate, we may not vote, or we may vote for someone who cannot win, just to show our support for our precious opinions. This grandstanding is more important to us than the lives of all the people who will die and be exploited if a fascist warmonger is elected because of our selfish narcissism.

The old joke is that the left forms its firing squad in a circle. The truth of that is in the selfish progressive's belief that politics is not for the practical advance of the common good, but is a showcase for personal sentiments. Progressive meetings take forever as all of us must fully expound our views on everything. It is such a bore when other people speak, and so wonderfully enlightening when we finally get a few hours to speak ourselves. It is, in other words, a monumentally selfish exercise much of the time.

I hope the Nader candidacy is not to become a meeting ground for such narcissism at the expense of other people's lives.

I am concerned about the future of the Green Party. My friends in the Greens tell me that they are building a party and that they must look to the long view. If they are right, here is the long view: ten to twenty years of party growth, during which the left vote will be split and the right wing will have the institutions of government all to themselves. Another ten to twenty years of equality between the Greens and the Dems, during which the right wing will have another era of unchallenged power. Then ten to twenty years when the Greens outpace the Dems, but the Dems are still a factor and the progressive vote is still split. So, say, thirty to sixty years before they can see some victories. Will there be anything like justice and liberty and nature left to work with by that time?

Do the Greens have a better scenario to meet the real and present danger to the planet? I do: let the progressives take over the Democratic party, whose doors are unlocked and whose halls are unguarded. That can be done in two to four years. If the energies of the Green Party were transferred to a Green Caucus within the Democratic Party, real progress would be possible quickly

It is time for the factions of the left to understand that, unless they have a practical strategy for early victory, they stand in the way of justice, of environmental protection, and of peace if they continue to split the progressive vote. If they can actually win elections in some areas, that is a different matter, of course.

If any fellow progressives are in the game only to hear themselves pontificate and wax eloquent about their wonderful values and their brilliant grasp of the issues--while others starve and die, I ask them to join Toastmasters where they can learn to make shorter, less boring speeches and also do no harm in the world. Politics is not about posturing, but about winning and losing and representing the interests of millions of people. When you take up the sword of politics, you play to win on behalf of your people, not to look pretty in your uniform.

That same narcissism that we of the left are particularly prone to, by the way, may be on display in the convention cities this summer. Millions of television viewers trying to decide whether or not to jump ship from the incumbent will look at the mess on the streets in Boston and New York and say, well, if I have to choose sides, I know I'm not on theirs. The conventions are a time for massive action, but it had better be well organized and designed to convey real information respectfully to the American people, or it will be a selfish and damaging exercise in adult play at the expense of thousands of lives and the environment. I urge those non-delegates going to the conventions to carry thoughtful signs designed not to show only their anger, but the truth. I urge young people to consider the conventions not as an opportunity for mayhem and fun, but for service to their country and their world by using their creativity to open, not close, the hearts of the millions of Americans who will be watching. Let's look good out there. It is not in protesting alone that we find our power, but in creating change in the hearts and minds of millions of Americans. We have the power to do this, because the facts are on our side and because most Americans do care about the air, water, forests and mountains of their world, and most Americans do not side with corruption and exploitation and greed. We can only enlarge our tent by attracting people into it through our earnestness and our ability to admirably represent truth and love.


http://grannyd.com/speech20040529.htm

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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Tis one thing to "disagree"
tis quite another to be a disrupting jackass.
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Gee, you guys have your own meme now, don'cha? N/T
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. what?
Sorry I'm not down with DU slang, what's a meme?
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. I'm not surprised that you're not down with DU slang
Not at all :evilgrin:
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Thanks for being snobby about it, anyway.
real informative, and classy.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. You want informative and classy?
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. Your defintion of informative:
rereading.

sweet, now I know what 'meme' means.

Oh, no wait, no I don't because your ilk are too exclusive too tell me because I choose dissent over blind conformity.

Dissention is patriotic.
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Teddy_Salad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:04 PM
Original message
I'm exclusive but I found this that might help ya....
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=meme

See, I'm a "exclusive inclusive".....and a little "reclusive" too.

Hope this helped? :P
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
41. Thanks - a ray of light in a dark, clouded thread. n/t
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. If you want to save your breath
it's also known as "a dictionary"
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. Thanks,
I thought the phrase was a DU insider term.
(sarcasm)
Good political argument against dissention though...
(/sarcasm)
Moreover, meme means "same" in french.
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Teddy_Salad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #41
53. Oh yes.....
I'm a little O8)
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Nope,
Just the only one on that particular line of converstation that didn't decide to name call, myself included.
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:04 PM
Original message
Oh, give me a break
You're SO involved in politics and you don't even know what a MEME is? I was actually going to tell you in my next post, but I think I'll let ya do a little research on your own.
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
49. Sorry I don't sit around every day reading posts on DU
or on other sites. Politics is about being out among people, do work for and with your fellow citizens. Not to mention some of us have to work, go to school and maintain some shread of a social life... (Not to say you don't do some of those things, but I'd bet with your feeling like an insider here at DU, you have more free time or more computer time than I do...)

But this is SO WRONG. This is not what DU should be about! You and I are just sitting around calling each other names, and it doesn't matter who started it. I am sorry that I lowered myself to this level, I don't mean to insult you.

Moreover what DU is about is healthy debate about issues with in the democratic party. If you don't believe in health dissention then what are you doing responding to my post or any other posts here in DU?

People dissagree. Obviously... and if you have a good argument, than bare it - that's what DU is about.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. "meme" is at least a decade old
it's creation had nothing to do with DU, and the idea of "memes" is not limited to the political.

Here's a clue: The next time you want to know something, try Google.
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Really great political banter!!
This has really gotten out of hand, when you feel like debating about dissention in the DU forums, let me know.
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StandUpGuy Donating Member (392 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #57
83. don't worry about these disruptors
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 05:38 PM by StandUpGuy
All of us true democrats know that these Any Body But Bush follow the leader trolls and GOP plants are hoping to get Kerry into the White House without having to support a single Left leaning foreign policy initiative or platform.

The GOP is desperate to retain power When Bush is defeated and are trying to get Kerry in with as little ideological baggage as possible.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #58
65. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. I notice you don't have much to say, other than insults
Glass houses, ya know :eyes:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #68
74. Mine is wood
a little concrete for good measure.Stands up to all kinds of huffing and puffing.

Thankfully.
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #58
82. Maybe 3 months at DU, doesn't qualify my political knowledge
"Or did you go off your meds and the paranoia is kicking in?"

- Sweet personal attack.

"What I don't believe in is people who, on one hand, agree that Bush is destroying this country and most of our lives, and then turn around and bash and denigrate our very own candidate and then whine about dissent when they're called on it."

- Near as I can tell you only believe in dissent when it serves your ends. Unfortunately basic rights don't quite work like that. If you want to deny the right to dissention to those who believe in non-kerryish policies, then please inform the administration. Until then I will use the voice given to me to stand up and be counted when something wrong occurs regardless of who does it.

"I won't apologize for getting fed up when I hear nothing but Kerry bashing day in and day out."

- I am glad you are passionate about your involvement, but like you said it's a Democratic Underground, not a Kerry Underground. You have to include some who aren't excited about Kerry's nomination.
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GodHelpUsAll2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #58
112. Well
You better get use to it cause if Kerry defeats Bush the Repubs will go after him in such a way it will make Clinton's years look like a walk in the park. In fact, they are already going after him aren't they. If we intend to actually WIN this election I would suggest we all get a little thicker skin.
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. Believe me, I'm WAY nicer than I want to be
Maybe the trolls don't give a damn about being tombstoned, but I do. So believe me, what you got was about as nice as it's gonna get.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Yes, without them
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 04:52 PM by sangh0
there is no choice, no democracy, no free speech, and no dissent.

:crazy:
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Kerry IS the Democratic Party Nominee. Bashing him HERE serves NO PURPOSE
other than, apparently, some self agrandized amusement.

We need UNITY, not DIVISION.

We're all on the same team here, you know?
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. Insane.
When you work for a company, in a partnership or play on a team do you always agree with everyone about the best path toward your goal?

Of course not...

Dissention is THE SINGLE MOST PATRIOTIC activity that there has ever been short of voting - which is just a form of dissention.
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #30
72. And if that dissention does not get Kerry elected?
We have 4 more years of Bush. It's really that simple.
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #72
87. Is it that simple?
Are undecided voters seeking out DU, finding out Kerry's (GASP) not perfect, and deciding to vote for Bush.

Yeah right.

This is a forum filled with those who have promised they will do what they can for the democratic party, but that DOES NOT mean they always agree on direction to point the ship.
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StandUpGuy Donating Member (392 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #72
104. Who's Fault is that.
Maybe Dem's like you should stop whining to solid Democrats not snowed by the shifting right to get elected bushit and instead go convince the millions of people that Don't currently vote that Kerry is a great guy.

While you are doing that we the left democrats will be holding our vote hostage until Kerry moves in a direction other than into bush's arms.

Has republican lite EVER worked ?

I can make an equally insulting post credibly arguing that Kerry and supporters like you are handing this election to Bush.
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:04 PM
Original message
DU is not an arm of the Democratic Party
Discussion here is not a "party function", so stop cracking the whip.

And due criticism of Kerry fron the Left serves a very important purpose; more voices coming from our direction means greater freedom for Kerry to move Left (in deeds, not just words). Simultaneously, it weakens any assertion from conservatives that Kerry is "Far Left".

Kerry would get exactly the treatment Kucinich did if we remained silent about his shortcomings.

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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
45. "cracking the whip"???
I guess you ddin't notice, but it was a request, not a command. The OP even says "please"
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm with ya on this one
Unfortunately, I think we're stuck with them for the duration :grr:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
9. Take it up with the Admins
instead of posting here.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
10. Long live Oceania!


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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Hi, IG!!
:hi:

Long time no see :D
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. ditto
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
88. Long live Granny D who also thinks it's time to grow up for some
We are the selfish progressives when we think it is all about us. We require the perfect candidate who reflects our views precisely. If we cannot have such a candidate, we may not vote, or we may vote for someone who cannot win, just to show our support for our precious opinions. This grandstanding is more important to us than the lives of all the people who will die and be exploited if a fascist warmonger is elected because of our selfish narcissism.

The old joke is that the left forms its firing squad in a circle. The truth of that is in the selfish progressive's belief that politics is not for the practical advance of the common good, but is a showcase for personal sentiments. Progressive meetings take forever as all of us must fully expound our views on everything. It is such a bore when other people speak, and so wonderfully enlightening when we finally get a few hours to speak ourselves. It is, in other words, a monumentally selfish exercise much of the time.

I hope the Nader candidacy is not to become a meeting ground for such narcissism at the expense of other people's lives.

I am concerned about the future of the Green Party. My friends in the Greens tell me that they are building a party and that they must look to the long view. If they are right, here is the long view: ten to twenty years of party growth, during which the left vote will be split and the right wing will have the institutions of government all to themselves. Another ten to twenty years of equality between the Greens and the Dems, during which the right wing will have another era of unchallenged power. Then ten to twenty years when the Greens outpace the Dems, but the Dems are still a factor and the progressive vote is still split. So, say, thirty to sixty years before they can see some victories. Will there be anything like justice and liberty and nature left to work with by that time?

Do the Greens have a better scenario to meet the real and present danger to the planet? I do: let the progressives take over the Democratic party, whose doors are unlocked and whose halls are unguarded. That can be done in two to four years. If the energies of the Green Party were transferred to a Green Caucus within the Democratic Party, real progress would be possible quickly

It is time for the factions of the left to understand that, unless they have a practical strategy for early victory, they stand in the way of justice, of environmental protection, and of peace if they continue to split the progressive vote. If they can actually win elections in some areas, that is a different matter, of course.

If any fellow progressives are in the game only to hear themselves pontificate and wax eloquent about their wonderful values and their brilliant grasp of the issues--while others starve and die, I ask them to join Toastmasters where they can learn to make shorter, less boring speeches and also do no harm in the world. Politics is not about posturing, but about winning and losing and representing the interests of millions of people. When you take up the sword of politics, you play to win on behalf of your people, not to look pretty in your uniform.

That same narcissism that we of the left are particularly prone to, by the way, may be on display in the convention cities this summer. Millions of television viewers trying to decide whether or not to jump ship from the incumbent will look at the mess on the streets in Boston and New York and say, well, if I have to choose sides, I know I'm not on theirs. The conventions are a time for massive action, but it had better be well organized and designed to convey real information respectfully to the American people, or it will be a selfish and damaging exercise in adult play at the expense of thousands of lives and the environment. I urge those non-delegates going to the conventions to carry thoughtful signs designed not to show only their anger, but the truth. I urge young people to consider the conventions not as an opportunity for mayhem and fun, but for service to their country and their world by using their creativity to open, not close, the hearts of the millions of Americans who will be watching. Let's look good out there. It is not in protesting alone that we find our power, but in creating change in the hearts and minds of millions of Americans. We have the power to do this, because the facts are on our side and because most Americans do care about the air, water, forests and mountains of their world, and most Americans do not side with corruption and exploitation and greed. We can only enlarge our tent by attracting people into it through our earnestness and our ability to admirably represent truth and love.


http://grannyd.com/speech20040529.htm

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StandUpGuy Donating Member (392 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #88
117. Very Nice
But

That well thought out essay refers I think to Nov 2. Not dissent and political activism in the run up to an election.

How many people do you think will be voting Kerry because the have had it with the liar Bush?

Do we really need to shift right to win.

Instead of closing your eyes ears and nose between now and the time you cast your ballot, I recommend you spend this time Identifying your core values and issues and work for the next 100+ days with everything you have trying to get Kerry to adopt your idea while convincing others how bad Bush is.



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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
99. If that was meant to be clever, you failed.
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 05:51 PM by Feanorcurufinwe

Smearing the original poster as Orwellian is not exactly an impressive example of wit or rhetoric.

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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
13. I'd vote for the moldering remains of Grover Cleveland over Bush.
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 04:53 PM by terrya
Unfortunately, we don't have to go to those extremes.

We have two fine, decent men at the top of the ticket. I wish more people would see that. :-)
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. heh
Cleveland's moldy remains probably speak better English than Chimpy :D
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. I guess I can take some of the dissension.
I am a little curious about people who's post count is padded with little pats on the back in the less serious forums, then come into the serious discussions with sort of an "anti-DU establishment" type attitude. They either mean to be disruptors or are just depressed or something (just like a liberal to give them the benefit of the doubt based on compassion eh! hahaha).
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Live long and prosper
:D
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. "Live Long and Prosper"
(I'm making a "V" shape with my hand) :)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
24. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Deleted message
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. touched a nerve
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
64. Deleted message
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #64
85. The sell out losers here
Are the people that will undermine Kerry to give Bush 4 more years. Those are the biggest losers of all!
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StandUpGuy Donating Member (392 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #85
110. And those people are the ones..
That will blindly let Kerry try and poach republican votes by selling out Scared Dem's when they shift right.

If you really thought bush was a criminal sociopath bent on destroying the US with extreme right wing economic and foreign policy blunders and arrogance why would you allow your candidate to adopt some of these same policies and alienate his base instead of doing everything to get out the millions not voting.

Is it easier this way.

It may be but its not Honorable.

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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
90. Is Granny D saying SHUT UP or GROW UP?
We are the selfish progressives when we think it is all about us. We require the perfect candidate who reflects our views precisely. If we cannot have such a candidate, we may not vote, or we may vote for someone who cannot win, just to show our support for our precious opinions. This grandstanding is more important to us than the lives of all the people who will die and be exploited if a fascist warmonger is elected because of our selfish narcissism.

The old joke is that the left forms its firing squad in a circle. The truth of that is in the selfish progressive's belief that politics is not for the practical advance of the common good, but is a showcase for personal sentiments. Progressive meetings take forever as all of us must fully expound our views on everything. It is such a bore when other people speak, and so wonderfully enlightening when we finally get a few hours to speak ourselves. It is, in other words, a monumentally selfish exercise much of the time.

I hope the Nader candidacy is not to become a meeting ground for such narcissism at the expense of other people's lives.

I am concerned about the future of the Green Party. My friends in the Greens tell me that they are building a party and that they must look to the long view. If they are right, here is the long view: ten to twenty years of party growth, during which the left vote will be split and the right wing will have the institutions of government all to themselves. Another ten to twenty years of equality between the Greens and the Dems, during which the right wing will have another era of unchallenged power. Then ten to twenty years when the Greens outpace the Dems, but the Dems are still a factor and the progressive vote is still split. So, say, thirty to sixty years before they can see some victories. Will there be anything like justice and liberty and nature left to work with by that time?

Do the Greens have a better scenario to meet the real and present danger to the planet? I do: let the progressives take over the Democratic party, whose doors are unlocked and whose halls are unguarded. That can be done in two to four years. If the energies of the Green Party were transferred to a Green Caucus within the Democratic Party, real progress would be possible quickly

It is time for the factions of the left to understand that, unless they have a practical strategy for early victory, they stand in the way of justice, of environmental protection, and of peace if they continue to split the progressive vote. If they can actually win elections in some areas, that is a different matter, of course.

If any fellow progressives are in the game only to hear themselves pontificate and wax eloquent about their wonderful values and their brilliant grasp of the issues--while others starve and die, I ask them to join Toastmasters where they can learn to make shorter, less boring speeches and also do no harm in the world. Politics is not about posturing, but about winning and losing and representing the interests of millions of people. When you take up the sword of politics, you play to win on behalf of your people, not to look pretty in your uniform.

That same narcissism that we of the left are particularly prone to, by the way, may be on display in the convention cities this summer. Millions of television viewers trying to decide whether or not to jump ship from the incumbent will look at the mess on the streets in Boston and New York and say, well, if I have to choose sides, I know I'm not on theirs. The conventions are a time for massive action, but it had better be well organized and designed to convey real information respectfully to the American people, or it will be a selfish and damaging exercise in adult play at the expense of thousands of lives and the environment. I urge those non-delegates going to the conventions to carry thoughtful signs designed not to show only their anger, but the truth. I urge young people to consider the conventions not as an opportunity for mayhem and fun, but for service to their country and their world by using their creativity to open, not close, the hearts of the millions of Americans who will be watching. Let's look good out there. It is not in protesting alone that we find our power, but in creating change in the hearts and minds of millions of Americans. We have the power to do this, because the facts are on our side and because most Americans do care about the air, water, forests and mountains of their world, and most Americans do not side with corruption and exploitation and greed. We can only enlarge our tent by attracting people into it through our earnestness and our ability to admirably represent truth and love.


http://grannyd.com/speech20040529.htm

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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
26. If I could speak freely here
(Disclaimer: I am voting for Kerry in November. I have sent money to his campaign. I go to meetups. I have his sticker on my van. Etc.)

Now for the speaking freely part: I have SUCH mixed feelings on this issue. On the one hand, I am a big believer in the idea that we really need more than two parties in this country. They do it in Europe and usually several smaller parties pool together, etc. (I didn't put that very well, but it's been a long day, please forgive me.) Before this year, I always voted third party. More as a protest against the two major party system than anything else, though I always agreed with the Dems WAYYYYY more than the Reps (I agree with the Reps NONE...NONE AT ALL). I knew if I had to choose one of the two parties, it'd be a no-brainer: Dem all the way. Dems are making me more and more proud lately, but for a long time (Clinton years) I really just took them for granted. I am way more liberal than a lot of the Dem party platform positions.

That being said, this IS a different year. It really is. I voted third party (not Nader, I don't even remember the guy's NAME!) in 2000 and regretted it THAT NIGHT. Being in Texas, a lot of people said "eh wouldn't have mattered anyway", but hell's bells, I WANTED Gore to win, so why the F*CK didn't I just VOTE for him???

I swore to myself that night, after the whole Florida fiasco erupted, after I danced my husband around the kitchen thinking Gore won, that I would vote Dem in 2004 no matter what. That I would be involved in the PRIMARIES as soon as I possibly COULD. (Got involved in spring of last year.)

And I have kept that promise to myself and will continue to. I have decided maybe what I can do is join the Dems and try to change them from the inside instead of the outside!

See my mixed feelings on the whole Nader thing? Of COURSE I would totally love it if he came out tomorrow and said "Hey you know what? This just ISN'T the year for me", but it's also his right to run, know what I mean? And while I can't understand voting for Nader when another bush term is at stake, it's certainly their right to do that, too.

Maybe I'm just being naive here, I don't know. And I know I didn't address the specific DU concerns, sorry. I'm not here enough to really address that.

And now I'm officially rambling!
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
29. Oh yay,
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 04:58 PM by MadHound
Let us turn the party into that which we hate so the we can win!

Look, some of us are fed up with being fed another dose of the same ol' same ol'. You don't like it, put us on ignore. Quashing dissent is the pervue of people like Stalinists or facist.

Or is it just that you don't like your conscience reminding you that while the evil you are voting for is lesser, it is still evil.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
94. I thought you admired Granny D?
We are the selfish progressives when we think it is all about us. We require the perfect candidate who reflects our views precisely. If we cannot have such a candidate, we may not vote, or we may vote for someone who cannot win, just to show our support for our precious opinions. This grandstanding is more important to us than the lives of all the people who will die and be exploited if a fascist warmonger is elected because of our selfish narcissism.

The old joke is that the left forms its firing squad in a circle. The truth of that is in the selfish progressive's belief that politics is not for the practical advance of the common good, but is a showcase for personal sentiments. Progressive meetings take forever as all of us must fully expound our views on everything. It is such a bore when other people speak, and so wonderfully enlightening when we finally get a few hours to speak ourselves. It is, in other words, a monumentally selfish exercise much of the time.

I hope the Nader candidacy is not to become a meeting ground for such narcissism at the expense of other people's lives.

I am concerned about the future of the Green Party. My friends in the Greens tell me that they are building a party and that they must look to the long view. If they are right, here is the long view: ten to twenty years of party growth, during which the left vote will be split and the right wing will have the institutions of government all to themselves. Another ten to twenty years of equality between the Greens and the Dems, during which the right wing will have another era of unchallenged power. Then ten to twenty years when the Greens outpace the Dems, but the Dems are still a factor and the progressive vote is still split. So, say, thirty to sixty years before they can see some victories. Will there be anything like justice and liberty and nature left to work with by that time?

Do the Greens have a better scenario to meet the real and present danger to the planet? I do: let the progressives take over the Democratic party, whose doors are unlocked and whose halls are unguarded. That can be done in two to four years. If the energies of the Green Party were transferred to a Green Caucus within the Democratic Party, real progress would be possible quickly

It is time for the factions of the left to understand that, unless they have a practical strategy for early victory, they stand in the way of justice, of environmental protection, and of peace if they continue to split the progressive vote. If they can actually win elections in some areas, that is a different matter, of course.

If any fellow progressives are in the game only to hear themselves pontificate and wax eloquent about their wonderful values and their brilliant grasp of the issues--while others starve and die, I ask them to join Toastmasters where they can learn to make shorter, less boring speeches and also do no harm in the world. Politics is not about posturing, but about winning and losing and representing the interests of millions of people. When you take up the sword of politics, you play to win on behalf of your people, not to look pretty in your uniform.

That same narcissism that we of the left are particularly prone to, by the way, may be on display in the convention cities this summer. Millions of television viewers trying to decide whether or not to jump ship from the incumbent will look at the mess on the streets in Boston and New York and say, well, if I have to choose sides, I know I'm not on theirs. The conventions are a time for massive action, but it had better be well organized and designed to convey real information respectfully to the American people, or it will be a selfish and damaging exercise in adult play at the expense of thousands of lives and the environment. I urge those non-delegates going to the conventions to carry thoughtful signs designed not to show only their anger, but the truth. I urge young people to consider the conventions not as an opportunity for mayhem and fun, but for service to their country and their world by using their creativity to open, not close, the hearts of the millions of Americans who will be watching. Let's look good out there. It is not in protesting alone that we find our power, but in creating change in the hearts and minds of millions of Americans. We have the power to do this, because the facts are on our side and because most Americans do care about the air, water, forests and mountains of their world, and most Americans do not side with corruption and exploitation and greed. We can only enlarge our tent by attracting people into it through our earnestness and our ability to admirably represent truth and love.


http://grannyd.com/speech20040529.htm

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #29
114. Well then run for friggin office and raise the campaign funds
and put your mouth and your heart in the real world and spout the left party line and see if you are successful. Have you forgotten how many times K has won elections. The RWers are criticizing him for being the most liberal senator in congress today, but folks here at DU are saying he isn't liberal enough. Give him a break. He is damned if he does and damned if you doesn't.

He has not sold out the party - he is walking the fine line set up in this campaign and is trying like hell to win. Don't forget that has taken flack for being his anti-war stance during Nam, after he served. It is so easy to condemn and to nit pick, but what offices have you held? What offices have you run for?

It is quite unnerving for folks to just sit back and criticize, but not get out there and run for the offices. If it is so damned easy, then you do it.

Reality sucks, our political system sucks - both are true and we have to make the best of the system we have and make it work for us. Don't forget what Kerry has done for this country during his 35 years of service and don't forget that he must win. There is no doubt about it, he must win and if he has to be cautious and walk that line between the left and the right and teeter to the right more than the left, so be it. At least he is walking it.

You say he is selling out, I say he is sacrificing for the greater good. Beating * is the most important thing at this juncture in our lives.

When K wins - then be sure you ask for a job on the dems staff so that you can pull him to the left. I don't think you will have to, but it may make you feel better about things.

Dissent is fine - defeatism is ridiculous - being unrealistic and living in the liberal fantasy world that you exist in serves no purpose. Have you read the Dem's platform? Sounds pretty good to me and not RW at all.

Read it and relax and have faith in the man's experience, his past efforts and his past successes. Look at the record and look at this race realistically. It may relieve your anxieties.
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Bluzmann57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
31. Still more or less a free country
and if people want to disagree with Kerry, then that's their right. I still think that all posters in here(except the true disruptors) will vote Kerry/Edwards.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
34. How purist
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JayS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
35. Even statements that could be taken as a bash on Democrats...
...should be stated here. It is better such statements be picked apart here among friends than out on the street.

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txlibby71 Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
37. ??
I don't see the original message that has you so worked up. What is it??
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
40. You should start a list...
it's best for the party that we keep tabs on those that dissent.
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TeacherCreature Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. I agree
Everyone should be doing nothing but singing his praises!
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #40
98. You should read this
We are the selfish progressives when we think it is all about us. We require the perfect candidate who reflects our views precisely. If we cannot have such a candidate, we may not vote, or we may vote for someone who cannot win, just to show our support for our precious opinions. This grandstanding is more important to us than the lives of all the people who will die and be exploited if a fascist warmonger is elected because of our selfish narcissism.

The old joke is that the left forms its firing squad in a circle. The truth of that is in the selfish progressive's belief that politics is not for the practical advance of the common good, but is a showcase for personal sentiments. Progressive meetings take forever as all of us must fully expound our views on everything. It is such a bore when other people speak, and so wonderfully enlightening when we finally get a few hours to speak ourselves. It is, in other words, a monumentally selfish exercise much of the time.

I hope the Nader candidacy is not to become a meeting ground for such narcissism at the expense of other people's lives.

I am concerned about the future of the Green Party. My friends in the Greens tell me that they are building a party and that they must look to the long view. If they are right, here is the long view: ten to twenty years of party growth, during which the left vote will be split and the right wing will have the institutions of government all to themselves. Another ten to twenty years of equality between the Greens and the Dems, during which the right wing will have another era of unchallenged power. Then ten to twenty years when the Greens outpace the Dems, but the Dems are still a factor and the progressive vote is still split. So, say, thirty to sixty years before they can see some victories. Will there be anything like justice and liberty and nature left to work with by that time?

Do the Greens have a better scenario to meet the real and present danger to the planet? I do: let the progressives take over the Democratic party, whose doors are unlocked and whose halls are unguarded. That can be done in two to four years. If the energies of the Green Party were transferred to a Green Caucus within the Democratic Party, real progress would be possible quickly

It is time for the factions of the left to understand that, unless they have a practical strategy for early victory, they stand in the way of justice, of environmental protection, and of peace if they continue to split the progressive vote. If they can actually win elections in some areas, that is a different matter, of course.

If any fellow progressives are in the game only to hear themselves pontificate and wax eloquent about their wonderful values and their brilliant grasp of the issues--while others starve and die, I ask them to join Toastmasters where they can learn to make shorter, less boring speeches and also do no harm in the world. Politics is not about posturing, but about winning and losing and representing the interests of millions of people. When you take up the sword of politics, you play to win on behalf of your people, not to look pretty in your uniform.

That same narcissism that we of the left are particularly prone to, by the way, may be on display in the convention cities this summer. Millions of television viewers trying to decide whether or not to jump ship from the incumbent will look at the mess on the streets in Boston and New York and say, well, if I have to choose sides, I know I'm not on theirs. The conventions are a time for massive action, but it had better be well organized and designed to convey real information respectfully to the American people, or it will be a selfish and damaging exercise in adult play at the expense of thousands of lives and the environment. I urge those non-delegates going to the conventions to carry thoughtful signs designed not to show only their anger, but the truth. I urge young people to consider the conventions not as an opportunity for mayhem and fun, but for service to their country and their world by using their creativity to open, not close, the hearts of the millions of Americans who will be watching. Let's look good out there. It is not in protesting alone that we find our power, but in creating change in the hearts and minds of millions of Americans. We have the power to do this, because the facts are on our side and because most Americans do care about the air, water, forests and mountains of their world, and most Americans do not side with corruption and exploitation and greed. We can only enlarge our tent by attracting people into it through our earnestness and our ability to admirably represent truth and love.


http://grannyd.com/speech20040529.htm


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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #98
105. Could you post that again for me
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malachibk Donating Member (780 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
43. Sometimes I hate Kerry
(troops in Iraq for years, pro-wall) but I'm not going anywhere. I'm voting for him, but I'll voice my opinion thanks very much.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
46. Disruptors from the left are ok, apparently
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 05:12 PM by geek tragedy
It's okay to say that Kerry is bought and paid for by corporations and supports apartheid, apparently. Even announcing that one is voting for the Greens or Nader is ok.
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TeacherCreature Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. the truth stinks huh?
Best thing to do is admit it an start posting on what we can all agree on. Why keep trying to prove the ground is the sky?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
48. oh what the hell, I'll weigh in on it
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 05:43 PM by wyldwolf
I've heard the anti-Kerry anti-DNC folks here described as the "One percenters" and that isn't too far off the mark.

They wail about how they will squash the current dem leadership, banish the phantom menace DLC, and bring about a glorious revolution. As evidence of their strength, they point to the incredible performances of Dennis Kucinich and... wait. Scratch that.

IMO, and polls suggest the same, the democratic party under the leadership of Kerry/Edwards is so strong and so united that the wailing and gnashing of teeth from our more idealistic stringint brethren is barely audible. Even less so than the Who Horton heard.

You scream "we are here" but no one hears...



It really is getting quite comical. You wag your fingers and pump your fists in the air but everyone just yawns.

I would never suggest seriously purging or pushing you from the party nor do I have the power to do so. But you have to learn to play the political game. Your idealism has been your failing.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
52.  Why DU puts up with it like they do I'll never know.
Ask the administrators, if you're really looking for and open to an answer.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
56. Some of you need to be reminded of what ABB means
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 05:20 PM by IndianaGreen
ABB is a coalition whose only mission is to vote Bush out in November.

ABB is NOT an endorsement of Kerry's policies, and is not an embrace of the DLC and their ilk.

ABB is also NOT intended to exist beyond Election Day.

There won't be any ABB when President Kerry submits his legislative proposals.

To the real Left, ABB is nothing more than a shotgun wedding to get rid of the bigger evil. There is a divorce coming up right after Bush is defeated.
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. Being a Gay Male, I'll be part of that divorce!
We have to get the marriage going first though! Thats what some people don't understand.
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Snoggera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #56
70. The neocons won't just go away
after the election of Kerry, and to call for a splintering of the party then will only strengthen them more. They play the game a decade or two at a time. To say that when Kerry is in, it will be time to give him hell for not supporting every pet ideal one has is incredibly destructive and shortsighted. Kerry will be facing the same right wing attack machine that Clinton did, and he sure as hell doesn't need the left helping them.

I know all the arguments, so please don't start raining them down on me. I'm only expressing my thought on this.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #70
80. You know where to shove that post-election "loyalty"
I am tired of compromising on the war and GLBT issues. We won't sit quietly and let a President Kerry do what Tony Blair did to Labour.
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Snoggera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #80
96. Nothing wrong with loyalty when it means the
rebuilding of this democracy, and I think you may have already shoved a load.

Compromise in politics is life. Get used to it, or prepare to live an angry, bitter life.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #96
109. There is no compromise on PATRIOT
This Fascist piece of legislation should be repealed in its entirety!

There is also no compromise on Iraq, the troops should be brought home at once, screw the "stay the course" nonsense!
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Snoggera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #109
113. Pulling the troops
immediately would not be wise; that is, if one cares about the subsequent civil war that will erupt. If you think the number of Iraqi deaths these days is bad, you have no concept of what a civil war would bring. Now that the mistake has been made, let's try to repair what we can, bring in the UN, prevent massive bloodshed, and get the hell out.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #56
100. Some of you need to be reminded there's nothing progressive about losing
and relegating yourself and your high and mighty principles to permanent underdog status...unless of course, the real principle is to be the underdog ad infinitum.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
59. I'm not as bugged by the anti-Kerry threads...
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 05:24 PM by UdoKier
...as I am by the lack of positive, pro-Kerry threads. It seems that we, like America at large are just as prone to being reactionary rather than positive.

I think Kerry & Edwards are fantastic, and it was great to see the spike in positive threads after the Edwards pick.

I was a rabid Dean supporter until his campaign fell apart, but I switched quickly and easily to the Kerry camp, and support his candidacy wholeheartedly. None of this crap about "holding my nose". Sure I don't agree with him on everything (esp. the IWR vote), but I didn't agree with Bill Clinton on a lot of things either.

By the way, Clinton was every bit as supportive of this war and the WMD claims as Kerry, if not more, and I don't see people ragging on the "Big Dog" for that.

I can't count the number of times I've been confronted by rightwingers saying "Bill and Hillary said there were WMD!" (Thanks Bill and Hillary)

But back to the point, I think a lot of people are still bitter because their dream candidate didn't make the ticket. I wish they would learn to accept if not embrace Kerry for the sake of our country, which will undoubtedly be MUCH better off under a Kerry presidency than with another 4 years of Bushler.
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. I'm very excited about the Kerry/Edwards ticket.
I think they will restore some balance to this nation that is sadly lacking, as well as an intelligence and agenda that is not so self-centered and exclusive.
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. You hit the nail right on the head
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 05:26 PM by freetobegay
"But back to the point, I think a lot of people are still bitter because their dream candidate didn't make the ticket."
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westsidexview Donating Member (144 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
61. agree with me or get the fuck out
that was hitler's strategy. when anyone disagreed with him, his storm troopers would beat the hell out of them and then eject them.
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. Nope. Simply put. There is a time and place for everything.
Right now, the most important thing is turning this country back around from the course it's on. Second-guessing and undermining our ONLY shot at that for the next 4 years is hardly productive.

Let's get our guy elected and then see where we need to make changes.

Or to use a sports analogy, you don't change the entire team right before the Super Bowl.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #67
77. see, we have this nifty little tradition in America
of questioning (even rudely) those who would lead us. To restrict dissent to approved times and places, even for the best of reasons, is bad policy.

Politics isn't a comfortable or safe avocation nor should it be. My continuing kudos to the admins for allowing open debate here - I know the temptation to curtail has to be overwhelming at times.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #67
79. Yeah, expressing an opinion on DU could certainly...
undermine our only shot to turn this country around. Why don't they understand this?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #79
89. lol
:)
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westsidexview Donating Member (144 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #67
101. liberals must make room for centrist swing-voters or bush will win and
as forrest gump would add, "again". by taking a my way or the high way approach to issues, would be sympathetic voters run to nader as an alternative to bush.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #61
73. I'm all for criticizing Kerry - once he's in office.
And even then, it should be in a constructive, respectful way.

This is not the public commons- it's a DEMOCRATIC website. Why should we be tearing down the DEMOCRATIC nominee?

There are plenty of right-wing and "moderate" websites where you can smear him to your heart's content.

There are plenty of great things to say about this candidate, and as my grandma always said:

"If you can't think of anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #73
115. That should be dEMOCRATIC, small d...
there's a reason for that.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
66. Censorship!
The foundation of the Democratic Party, eh?
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. Ever hang up on a telemarketer?
Oh.
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #66
75. Melodrama has always made me ever so slightly nauseous.
The question at this point is do we want to win the game or indulge in internecine warfare while allowing Bush to recapture the White House for 4 more years of insanity?

It seems like a simple matter to me.

All people are saying is that we ARE on the same team and we need to start behaving a like a team.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #66
102. You should read this...it's illustrative of your posts lately
We are the selfish progressives when we think it is all about us. We require the perfect candidate who reflects our views precisely. If we cannot have such a candidate, we may not vote, or we may vote for someone who cannot win, just to show our support for our precious opinions. This grandstanding is more important to us than the lives of all the people who will die and be exploited if a fascist warmonger is elected because of our selfish narcissism.

The old joke is that the left forms its firing squad in a circle. The truth of that is in the selfish progressive's belief that politics is not for the practical advance of the common good, but is a showcase for personal sentiments. Progressive meetings take forever as all of us must fully expound our views on everything. It is such a bore when other people speak, and so wonderfully enlightening when we finally get a few hours to speak ourselves. It is, in other words, a monumentally selfish exercise much of the time.

I hope the Nader candidacy is not to become a meeting ground for such narcissism at the expense of other people's lives.

I am concerned about the future of the Green Party. My friends in the Greens tell me that they are building a party and that they must look to the long view. If they are right, here is the long view: ten to twenty years of party growth, during which the left vote will be split and the right wing will have the institutions of government all to themselves. Another ten to twenty years of equality between the Greens and the Dems, during which the right wing will have another era of unchallenged power. Then ten to twenty years when the Greens outpace the Dems, but the Dems are still a factor and the progressive vote is still split. So, say, thirty to sixty years before they can see some victories. Will there be anything like justice and liberty and nature left to work with by that time?

Do the Greens have a better scenario to meet the real and present danger to the planet? I do: let the progressives take over the Democratic party, whose doors are unlocked and whose halls are unguarded. That can be done in two to four years. If the energies of the Green Party were transferred to a Green Caucus within the Democratic Party, real progress would be possible quickly

It is time for the factions of the left to understand that, unless they have a practical strategy for early victory, they stand in the way of justice, of environmental protection, and of peace if they continue to split the progressive vote. If they can actually win elections in some areas, that is a different matter, of course.

If any fellow progressives are in the game only to hear themselves pontificate and wax eloquent about their wonderful values and their brilliant grasp of the issues--while others starve and die, I ask them to join Toastmasters where they can learn to make shorter, less boring speeches and also do no harm in the world. Politics is not about posturing, but about winning and losing and representing the interests of millions of people. When you take up the sword of politics, you play to win on behalf of your people, not to look pretty in your uniform.

That same narcissism that we of the left are particularly prone to, by the way, may be on display in the convention cities this summer. Millions of television viewers trying to decide whether or not to jump ship from the incumbent will look at the mess on the streets in Boston and New York and say, well, if I have to choose sides, I know I'm not on theirs. The conventions are a time for massive action, but it had better be well organized and designed to convey real information respectfully to the American people, or it will be a selfish and damaging exercise in adult play at the expense of thousands of lives and the environment. I urge those non-delegates going to the conventions to carry thoughtful signs designed not to show only their anger, but the truth. I urge young people to consider the conventions not as an opportunity for mayhem and fun, but for service to their country and their world by using their creativity to open, not close, the hearts of the millions of Americans who will be watching. Let's look good out there. It is not in protesting alone that we find our power, but in creating change in the hearts and minds of millions of Americans. We have the power to do this, because the facts are on our side and because most Americans do care about the air, water, forests and mountains of their world, and most Americans do not side with corruption and exploitation and greed. We can only enlarge our tent by attracting people into it through our earnestness and our ability to admirably represent truth and love.


http://grannyd.com/speech20040529.htm


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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
69. I feel ya, but I'd rather reign blows upon them...
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 05:30 PM by LoZoccolo
...(in a metaphorical, intellectual sense, of course), than contribute to their martyr complex. Believe you me, I like to smack them up, and having them around has actually helped me develop arguments against them (such as their lame "corporate money" argument), plus we all get to contribute and share in the throwdown as well as benefit from seeing each other's arguments in taking down this self-destructive contingent.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #69
76. Hey maybe we can get another Nader's penis thread going!
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Sure why not
Thats the only thing worth talking about Nader.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #78
92. Nader is a dickhead!
Now that we got that out in the open, shall we discuss the obsession that some self-proclaimed "liberals" have about censoring any point of view that does not agree with theirs?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #78
93. And it would serve as much purpose as this thread does
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. The tiny winky theory was about the voters, not Nader.
And if you read the original message, I was covering my ass enough to be able to claim that I wasn't advocating it, just asking people about it. Sort of like a push poll.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #81
91. Some defense
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #91
107. Here is the thread right here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Actually, I covered my ass enough to not really say much of anything.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
86. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #86
95. Oh man, you wasted your chance.
Think of how much more damage you could have done posing as a far-leftie.
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #86
97. Would you care to elaborate?
Or is this one of those hit & runs?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #97
106. I think it is a drive-bye shooting
This thread was a bad idea from the beginning! It has achieved nothing positive!
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. I thought it was a great idea
I like to bing out the "enemies from within"
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #108
111. You only succeeded in making enemies of natural allies
This is like asking people to turn their backs on their belief systems and accept that wars of aggression, murder and torture are okay for the sake of some mythical unity.
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Cat Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
103. Yay! Let's all be Bizarro-Freepers!
We'll stick our fingers in our ears and shout "lalalala- I can't hear you!" whenever someone points out one of the King's flaws!

It'll be great!
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
116. Locking
If you think someone is a disruptor, please hit alert so the mods can check it out.

Thanks.
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