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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:58 PM
Original message
Separating Fact from Fiction about the writing of the BBV book
As promised, I am now taking time to respond to the myriad of false accusations and misrepresentations made by Bev Harris about myself, my company and the writing of the book Black Box Voting.

I will post each of Bev's accusations along with rebuttals of her claim or distortion of the facts.

The first issue to be dealt with is this claim from Bev:

...he never typeset the book (I did);

What Bev means is that she typed up the book. She did type the manuscript in PageMaker, but this was her idea.

From December through June 2003, Bev sent her files to me in Microsoft Word format. During a conversation about the format of the book and the ongoing editing process, I was explaining that I was importing Bev's chapters into PageMaker, then formatting the pages. Bev perked up and told me that she knew PageMaker and wouldn'y it save lots of time if she just typed the manuscript directly into a PageMaker file. I said yes it would, but did she really want to mess with this? She said it was "no trouble" at all and it would save me some time since I was fielding a lot of email and phone calls for her at the time. (I was arranging interviews for Bev, answering emails, running the bbv.com web site, all while reading through her submissions and answering her questions.)

That said, I did spend a lot of times formating the pages, handling the graphics, and handling re-writes.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. Claim: "He's been pocketing the money, folks. "
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 03:30 PM by plan9_pub
She also made the claim on 4/2/04

...he sure as hell doesn't pay on time.

Or at all.


and

This is a man who has hoarded 100% of every book sold.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

We have yet to receive a single monthly royalty check (required by the contract)

In order to get a royalty check, you must burn through your advance. Bev has not done this.

Here is her advance check.




Normally, I do not pay advances. However, Bev was calling me crying about how she had no heat, couldn't make a mortgage payment and was going to lose her car. So, I gave up my own salary for two months in order to pay Bev this advance.

Now, here's the curious part. Bev is, by her own words, desparate for money. I wrote the check on 11/26/03 and sent it to her next day air. Look at the bank validation on the back. She didn't cash the check until almost a MONTH after she received it.

Ms. Harris complains about not collecting anything since, which is true, but there are number of good reasons why.

First, the last chapter of the book was NOT delivered until Dec 31st, 2003 (not early Oct-Nov as Bev has claimed).

---------------------------------------------

Subject: Chapter 14, final
From: Bev Harris
To: David Allen
Date: 12/31/2003 12:24 PM

{attachment}


---------------------------------------------

Even then, I was still getting corrections from Bev

Subject: Corrections for graphics
From: Bev Harris
To: David Allen
1/13/2004 1:27 PM


----------------------------------------------
At this point I was producing prototypes of the book, while Lex Alexander continued proofing and editing.

Despite the fact that the book was not ready and had NOT been printed, Bev sent out this email:

----------------------------------------------
Subject: From Bev Harris: Black Box activism - January targets!
From: Bev Harris
To: Mailing List
Date: 1/3/2004 4:13 PM


Well, the book is FINALLY at print and shipping shortly. I need your
help for some short-term projects -- note that there are many kinds of
activities to suit many different skill sets.

-----------------------------------------------

So, I rushed a test run to press, which we then discovered we couldn't use because an the appendix was missing. When I corrected the file, more changes came in from Bev and finally demands about why I wasn't filling orders, NOW!!

I got the files back from Lex Alexander on February 9th. (And before someone asks why I didn't have these RUSHED, understand that Lex had set aside time on a number of occasions to edit the work and Bev missed the deadlines EVERY time. When she finally did deliver all the all the chapters and corrections, Lex has another project he was working on and couldn't drop it to accomdate Bev.

I explained to Bev that I was getting the books out as fast as I could. And while I was fielding calls from the media for her, plus handling her email, I would be late getting royalty checks processed. The first one that would have been due on 3/15.

I didn't even get to 3/15, on 3/10 Bev lawyer contacted me demanding I stop selling the book and relinquish all rights.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr. Allen,

I am the attorney for Beverly Harris, author of the book Black Box Voting: Ballot Tampering in the 21st Century ("The Book"). The purpose of this letter is to notify you, as the owner of Plan Nine Publishing (collectively "You"), that Plan Nine Publishing is in material breach of its contract with Beverly Harris dated November 13, 2002.

You have failed to provide any monthly statements of account or monthly payments of royalties...


-----------------------------------------------------------------

Bev claims the book shipped in November, when she knew differently.

Now, Bev was planning on cheating me out of all compensation for the book. Thus, I would have to absorb all costs related to the prodcution of the book out of my own pocket. So, when I sent her an accounting, I deducted those costs as well as the advance. The costs included Lex Alexander fee for editing, Brad Guigar's fee for the cover (which she used without permission on her edition of BBV), her plane and hotel expenses for a trip to Swarthmore which she ducked out of at the last second, telling me she feared being killled if she showed up.

As of June 30 I have ceased offering the book on my site and will cancel the listing on Amazon as soon as I fill the last order. (I will continue to offer the PDF version free). I am in the red because of Ms. Harris' attempt to cheat me, and the deficit grows everytime I have to answer her latest libelous and false charge.


Edits: Typos and format errors.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
80. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #80
98. I find it hard to believe you have read the entire post...
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dietdpfan Donating Member (347 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good for you!
I'm glad you are standing up to her and proving her claims as lies!

I admire you for that.

:bounce:
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Maybe her claims regarding David and others are disingenuous
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 03:19 PM by trumad
but lets be clear...The claims against Diebold, etc are true to the core.... So let's make that clear from the start. David... Good work...
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Absolutely!
I am not questioning the problems with Diebold. Those have been vetted by many other activists and scientists.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. I agree
I for one believe David but the Diebold files and memos are real and 100% true. I wish she would stop this fight and apologize to David. She's hurting herself and the e-voting cause. This is stupid.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. Is DU the proper place to have this foodfight?
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. It certainly is....
too many of us were involved not to know what's going on....
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Yes, thanks David
I've been waiting patiently to hear your side.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Sorry, I don't consider
defending my good name a "food fight"

Also, Ms. Harris made this a public fight and demanded proof.

Just giving her what she requested.
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Bev threw the first tomatoe waaaay back in Sept, 2003
And it was rotten. Yes, this is the place. Bev started it here, she asked for rebuttals of her statements here. Many activists were accused here.

This is the place.

Hang with it though, watch a movement get healed...

And, for the record, I think Diebold's equipment, software and whole concept of concealing ballots from voters is completely inappropriate for an open democracy.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
25. Probably not. Unfortunately,
David wasn't the one who started it here, and I certainly can't fault him for wanting to set the record straight. There are those who feel that anyone who's been dealt with poorly (or worse) by Bev Harris should just STFU and, well, go away. Basically, we WERE "away" until the subject came up yet again in this public forum. And who brought it up? Bev.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thank you, David
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Hi Pastiche!
Haven't seen you post in a long time.
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Bushfire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
12. If you are going to start a thread like this, can you post sales reports?
I know she had repeatedly asked for them, and I have yet to see them on any other thread. If they have been posted, I missed them. I wished it wouldn't have come to this, and I believed you when you had the royalty advance check cashed. Without sales reports to back up the sales (it would be harder to convince me than a cashed check though), where is this argument going? I would have much preferred this argument go to court, than to DU. We've lost Bev (& Andy it seems), and given the other side plenty of ammo. I realize you were just guarding your reputation.

Peace!
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Bev had been sent the sales reports each month
Then she claims never to have received them. I will be mailing at a final set this week, and will send it registered mail.

If Bev wants the sales report posted, she can post them. While she has said that she gives me "permission" to post them, I will not do so unless I have a signed document. Bev has already been shown to say one thing, then claim another. Somehow I think that if I posted such things, she would accuse me of violating her privacy, claiming never to have given me permission to disclose the doucments.

I will be posting documents to prove that her claims to me in emails are bogus. Specifically I will show how many books have been printed to date and how many she claims she's owed for.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
14. I know I am asking for trouble here
but can someone provide the background on this fight? I have avoided all the threads on it, so I have no idea what the hell is going on here. I'd like to know. Not to put too fine a point on it, but if this kind of stuff winds up submarining the fight against these machines, I'm going to rip my hair out by the roots and then start throwing my own poop at people like a deranged howler monkey.
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. This will not hurt the effort.
It may not be as centralized, and DU may not play as much of a role, but I believe too many seeds have been planted for the work to not continue.

There seems to be a fair amount of inertia in the general public now- Calif. decertifying, and now Ohio decertifying. Maryland is acting up (and did I see Florida too?) We are pushing a large boulder here in Georgia, but we will not give up until we crest the hill!
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. OK, good
So :wtf: is going on?
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Sorry it had to come to this, Mr. Pitt
But I had gotten fed up with Bev accusing me a stealing from her and cheating her. When it was revealed that she filed a 'qui tam' law suit last week, it was the last straw for many folks who have suffered much lies and abuse at Bev's hands.

While there may be some plausible deniability on Bev's part that she filed the suit out of greed, their can be NO doubt that Jim March, Bev's bosum pal is only in it for the money, as he pretty much says so himself.
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. There were two threads from this weekend
Unfortunately, I think it is important to read through both threads in their entirety. What you seem to be asking for is a synopsis of the fight, and that would be like asking any of us to give you our version of it- and that would be necessarily biased. The briefest synopsis I can give is that Dave (Plan9 Pub) and BevHarris disagree about some issues. Bev has recently filed a lawsuit, and quite a few people are angry that she has filed a Qui Tam that she apparently (months ago) accused others of thinking of filing.

Read the threads yourself, and make your own opinion. The threads aren't particularly pretty.


Here is one:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

And I can't find the other one that I saw this weekend.

But Plan9 Pub has two links in his reply in this thread.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Hi Will... about halfway down the other thread I posted a summary
... very patchy summary of the entire saga with some basic timing. Even you get a mention under the heading of Fredda Weinberg....

You don't really need to read all the tooing and froing to get the gist of it. The guts is in Bev's Sandbox quote.. David's replies and my attempts to provide some context.

I will post a direct link to the thread mentioning you :)
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. DIRECT LINKS: The bit about Fredda...Bev's post.. My Serial
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 10:02 PM by althecat
Here's the bit about fredda

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

it is part of a serial post explaining the history that begins here....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Bev's post that started the latest scrap is here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. The relevant threads can be found here:
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chimpy the poopthrower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
65. Hey! Stop trying to steal my schtick, Will!
:silly:
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
17. Good for you Plan...
Bev's work is important, but it's very disturbing to see her CONSTANTLY lose allies and then take her fights public. All her problems can't always be somebody else's fault.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Yeah, you noiticed that
It is always someone conspiring against her.
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. no other big players involved here, no....
move along, nothing to see here.

I smell infiltration and it's spelled Diebold.
too frikken easy.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Who are you accusing of working for Diebold?
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. What does this mean TD?
Or is it some black irony?
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
22. You've provided ample...
evidence for anyone paying attention.... Not sure any more is worth your time w/o some sorta response. Sad. Really. Really. Sad.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Agreed...
This will do for now. I am keeping my eyes open for any other nonsense from her camp and will dig out more proof if need be. And beleive me, I have LOTS more proof.
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. "God bless him. He is an amazing, amazing man of great character."
what's with that tag line?
are you reminding us of your amazing character or reminding us that you were once trusted?

just asking?
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. No, reminding folks of Bev's own words
before she decided to file a 'qui tam' behind my back, then try to extort total control of the book and my web site.
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. thanks, but I'd rather be reminded of Vote scams than your personal hurt
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 10:08 PM by TrustingDog
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Really?
Well, I have to fight Diebold lies AND Bev Harris lies. A bit unfair, doncha think?

I don't have a billion dollars to pay for my lawyer like Diebold does, nor do I have lawyers working for free, like Bev does.

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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. So, just...
CLICK ON BY. Have a nice day.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Also,
It just isn't my "personal hurt".

Bev accused over a dozen people of doing the very thing she was secretly doing herself. THEN, she denied ever smearing people's reputation, called us liars for claiming she did and DARED us to provide proof she did.

Proof was provided. Irrefutable, iron-clad proof that Bev lied.

Then she didn't want to play any more.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #40
52. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. btw, don't mean to sound so harsh... just exasperated....
I do not know the real history of bbv and the true inner workings, and I don't care. What I do know is Bev's name made this venial sin of fudged votes come to light. That's good enough for me. Scrap over the credits and details when the real work is done, not now.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. Since you have admitted
you do not know the history here, why not exit this thread?

You are adding zip.

Please understand that many of us witnessed not only Bev's accusations, but also know the extent of research some DUers put forth. Unpaid research.
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #55
68. again, my apologies...
I reread some of my posts and see that they are way more caustic than intended. I'm sorry if I upset anyone.

It's true that I do not know the full history of this dispute, (but I doubt that anyone else here does either...) so I will shut up about it.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Apologies are always
appreciated. <s> No one knows the whole history, we only know those we were involved in. I took this time to recount my side of the story and appreciate the time you took to address my views.

You do not know how much it pains me to have been compelled to do this.
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. Apology accepted. (for a post downstream from here).
Thank you.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. Aplogy accepted...
Thanks TD..

...and I am sorry if I was a bit caustic in response. Tis a wonderful medium here at DU and I may have got a bit carried away.

Al
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. my 'excuse'...?
something like a kid being told that santa easter claus bunny is not real. :(

these are very interesting emotional times.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. No worries TD... consider it forgotten
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
23. Claim: This was my work product, folks
This was her blanket claim that she did it all, to quote Bev:

"This was my work product, folks. My research. My time. My publicity efforts. My proofing. My structural editing (didn't get that, either). My fact checking. My Pulitzer-Prize deserving work.

According to Bev, she did it all. And you know, those bastards at the Pulitzer Committee SNUBBED her! What ingratitude!

What an ego.

Let's take them one by one, shall we?

My research.

Do I really have to prove this a lie to anybody at DU? Certainly Bev did do some independent research, but everything involving the software and the memos was a group effort involving well over a dozen people. DemActivist and myself spent countless hours explaining (and re-explaining) the in and outs of PC operation, network security, (me) and programming theory & practice (DemActivist). So, how can she claim this was *all* *her* research.

My time.

Of course, no one else spent a single minute on this project. Only Bev actually used HER time. The rest of us apparently used someone else's time.

My publicity efforts.

Ah, yes, but again, this was what Bev was expert at, not me. When we first talked about the project, she was excited that each of us would be bringing something to the project. I was bringing my technical expertise and writing talent:


Also -- David -- you are much wittier than me. I think I'll be sending you pieces of this as we go, just for your input. Obviously, the completed product by the deadline. As we go, PLEASE feel free to add punch lines. Like the one you said on the phone when I mentioned the candidate who got a pre-voted ballot for his opponent: "Hey, we've moved from computerized voting to fully automated..." or whatever you said.

Bev Harris email
11/13/02



She would bring the core research and her PR skills.

A match made in heaven, right? Well, it could have been, but then I wouldn't be telling this story.

My proofing.

While Bev did help with proofing, she also made a lot of it necessary by constantly re-writing stuff. We didn't complain about this, but it is a bit disingenuous of her to complain about something she volunteered to do.

My structural editing (didn't get that, either).

This one REALLY pisses off Lex Alexander.

Originally, she was bringing her own editor.


I've talked with the (used to be) lawyer. Okay, he's my brother, but brilliant. Quit law because after winning every case as a defense
attorney -- he finally got tired of helping sleaze stay out of jail. He's a book editor/writer now, has edited more than 50 books for major publishers, has written at least 35 more, all in wide distribution. Got his agreement to review, edit, add perspective on legal over the Thanksgiving holidays. He and I will work out the $$ between us.


Bev Harris email
11/13/02



But this editor never materialized. Notice she was going to pay for him herself?

Lex was involved from the very beginning.


Hi, Bev:

As you no doubt know, David Allen has asked me to help edit your book. I'm delighted to do it.

I wanted to get in touch with you to, first, introduce myself; second, let you know how you can contact me; and, third, ask you how you'd like for this process to work.

This e-mail address, my home addy, is best for contacting me. My boss at my full-time job has approved my involvement in this project and probably wouldn't mind the occasional e-mail at work, but I don't want to abuse his generosity. I generally am in the office from roughly 9:15-9:30 until around 5:30 or 6, all times Eastern. I check home e-mail every evening and most early mornings as well.

Additional contact info:
work: 336/xxx.xxxx
home: 336/xxx.xxx
work e-mail: lalexander@xxx.com
AIM: Lexxxxx
ICQ: 12185xxxx, nickname "Lex"*
*I'm usually logged on to one or the other of these at work, for a variety of work-related reasons, unless I'm in a meeting or out of the office.


Lex Alexander email
12/2/02



I guess Lex shouldn't have been so cryptic about how to get in touch.



Dear David & Lex,

(By the way, hi Lex! And I'll just e-mail you the files as Word
attachments).


Bev Harris email
12/10/02



Notice it took Bev over a week to get back to Lex?

Later when Bev sent Lex some chapters, he sent her back extensive comments, trying to help her get her thoughts organized. He even wrote an sample outline for her (she had no outline)..

This made Bev unhappy. She didn't like being told how to write and she decided Lex's assistance was suspect because he was a Republican (he is, in the Goldwater "what's wrong with gays in the military' sense. He is NO friend of the administration and I have known him over ten years as a talented and capable reporter and editor.)


I think it is a mistake to use an editor who is not politically on the same page.

Bev Harris email
2/24/03



She did use him anyway. I won't post everything to make my point about Lex editing the book but I may have to in order to silence Bev's supporters who don't believe the its raining unless they get wet.

My fact-checking

Who else is supposed to check her facts? I spot checked them here and there, but the author is responsible for a factually correct manuscript.

The biggest piece of evidence that Bev did not do this all by herself is found in Bev's own words at the end of the book:


Wow. This book was a long, hard, scary piece of work. It would not
have been possible to create a body of work like this without help, and it is not possible to list you all in the space provided. Thanks to Lynn Landes, and Linda Franz, and Rebecca Mercuri. And to the Colliers, all of em, and Ronnie Dugger, and Peter Neumann, and Doug Jones, the pioneering voices of concern. To publisher David Allen, who said of the private corporations that were throwing their weight around, Ive always wanted to be on an Enemies List. And to editor Lex Alexander, a voice of encouragement when David Allen and I were shouting at one another. Its understandable that youre feeling a little tense, said Lex. Were just expecting you to save American democracy. No Pressure. To Roxanne Jekot, who guided me through the basics and was a dear friend. And to DemocraticUnderground.com, perhaps my greatest source of inspiration and courage during the research and investigation phase. To Daniel Hopsicker, and Dan Spillane, and Jim Condit, and Brent Beleskey, and Mark Crispin Miller. To David Dill and Kim Alexander, and Greg Dinger and Denis Wright, and ParanoidPat, who never fails to make me laugh. To Alastair Thompson and Skinner, and Jeff Matson and gristy and punpirate. To Al Marzian and coalminers daughter, bpilgrim and Faun Otter and Marian Beddill, and that quiet force in the background, Jack Maples. To Slashdots Roblimo, and pioneering Susan Marie Weber, and two of the gutsiest uys I know, Charlie Matulka and Rob Behler. To Dan Wallach, Avi Rubin, Yoshi Kohno and Adam Stubblefield, for having the courage to go public and apply solid credentials to the problem. To Angka, SoCalDem, abcdan, Cap, HarmonyGuy, Papau, Phoebe, Trogl and Zhade; Eloriel, and HeddaFoil. Thanks to Greg Palast, who offered his expert advice when I found the Diebold FTP files, and to William Rivers Pitt, who shared ideas and his own research, and Thom Hartman, who knows the perils of privatization better than anyone. To the honorables Dennis Kucinich, Jim McDermott, Rush Holt, John Conyers and Barbara Boxer. To Robin, who stepped in with a shoulder to lean on when I most needed it, and Big John Gideon, the force on the forum. To the irrepressible Jim March, with his cleverness and great personal courage. To Andy Stephenson, a kick-ass researcher and a steadfast friend. I promised myself Id quit when the page ran out.


Any questions?
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. It seems you have a bit of a flair for some aspects of publicity yourself
So far the score is

BBV Superstar Diva 0
Comic Book Publisher 2


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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. It ain't my specialty
but I was inspired.
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. what is more important to you?
you sound like your little spat is compared to the biggest freaking story in american history.... and that one has Bev's name, not yours.

so, who's your daddy, David? why you doing this?
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Bev has threatened me,
harassed me, and done considerable harm to my reputation. According to you, I am supposed to just put up with this?

"Who's my daddy?" Oh please, is this supposed to be your feeble attempt to accuse me of being in league with "the enemy"?

Lame, very lame.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. David.. no need to defend yourself against this guy...
It's funny but I don't recall his participation in years past here at DU regarding BBV...
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. no, you don't have to put up with it, but...
take it elsewhere unpublic.
I for one don't give a flying fuck about David or Bev's personalness. There is something a bit bigger at stake here and let's get more dialogue on that than some smallish dot of nothingness compared.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. We didn't make it public,
Bev did. I pleaded with her to keep the dispute private and she refused. She had to make it public. To expect us to sit back and stay quiet while getting publicly slandered is a bit much.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. I've only followed this topic off and on...
...and I certainly wouldn't presume to accuse anyone in particular of double-dealing. But think about it - who'd stand to benefit the most from sowing the seeds of dissent in this happy little BBV garden? Diebold. Any chance they have SOME sort of hand in this bit of nastiness?


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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. I wouldn't put it past them at all...
But from the MO I reckon we should be looking at TD not David.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. I really doubt it.
from all that I have seen, no one pushed Bev's thinking in this direction, she pretty much came up with it herself. She inflicted this wound on herself.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dmr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. I third that advice
I could write a long list of things myself in defense of DemActivist and Eloriel, and the mal-treatment they received. But this is David's thread, so I won't.

I am supportive of Bev and anyone else who will help enlighten the American people and the powers within each state that make voting decisions for us. I just want Bev to stop inventing a crisis and betraying people when she no longer has use for those who have helped her. I want her to use that energy to continue concentrating on this issue, and I will continue to donate to BBV as much and as often as I can.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Oh, be my guest
on any of this. DemA and Eloriel endured a brutal assault by Bev that is only now being exposed as a complete fabircation. I do not pretend to have all the story on that particular sin.

More power to Bev or anyone fighting against BBV. I would really appreciate it though if she would refrain from calling up reporters I speak with and trashing me. I am trying to help where I can in my home state, yet Bev thinks that only SHE can address this issue.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. Bev has my support
in her quest to uncover Diebold's lies and deceits.

I will not support her attempts to:

1) Profit on the backs of other people's work.
2) Smear other activists for any reason.
3) Claim that she is the alpha and the omega of BBV.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #49
54. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. How DARE you judge someone else's hurt
HOW DARE YOU.

Why don't you ask Bev to apologize, make ammends for the good of the cause? She's the one who started this, David has proven that several times over.

How can you look at the trail of cast aside activist bodies here, and not see there's a problem?

Fixing the problem will only help the BBV effort. Fixing it sooner is better.
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nomatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
58. Can I ask
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 02:18 AM by nomatrix
what will end it?

By that, I mean what will satisfy everyone who put so much energy into BVV research, and are now channeling that energy to "What Bev did to me arguement."

If you don't get an apology, can you move on? Don't get stuck in this.

While you are busy with this, the GOP machine is busy with their agenda. Electronic voting was only one technique. They filled in absentee ballots (seminole), rewrote ballots they couldn't read, claimed power outages when there weren't any, butterfly ballots, here is a load of links.
Failure is Impossible
http://www.failureisimpossible.com/agenda/votingmachine...

Lots of people in those links did a lot of work, not to mention Maia who site it is. Paul Lusiack wrote a great deal on the Fla. vote. The 2000 election, before DU was even born, we were at Salon, (before it was pay to post) catching all the events as they happened. Tracking down editorials, small town news where you can find out information that is not put on a forum.

Hey, Fredda was there, and so was Greg Palast, Joe Cosanan, Jake Tapper. You know some books were written. There was some disent. But at some point you gotta say, as to the research,

I did this for ____________ (country, Dems, out of frustration) and I am responsible for what I post on a forum. Anyone is free to link it back to me. This is only a piece of me, the political me. The rest is my life. My words will the archived for years. What do I want them to reflect? My frustrations, sure, and my efforts for good. No one owes me anything for anything I post freely.
I just need to know, when enough is enough. Forum can be addictive. Very easy to do in political forums.

I was here back when DU opened. I had to stop. I came back, about two years ago. Low numbers, huh? One thing I learned, I didn't need to comment on everything. Pick my topics carefully, and limit my posts. It is O.K. to delete everything I typed (if I don't want that to be archived for years.) If I find someone particularly irritating, don't fall into the trap of arguing endlessly. 2 posts max. Let it go. Or I may be archived as the troll, or freeper, or ___________.

So I ask, please think about what you expect from Bev, but don't count on it. She is following through, like it or not. The cause is still good.

It might just be time to find another plan of attack. GOP is busy, busy busy.

Edit for spelling
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. Wherez the problem?
what will end it?

...suppose when those wronged have had their say.

...are now channeling that energy to "What Bev did to me arguement."

I'm sure all involved are still multitasking.

...before DU was even born, we were at Salon, (before it was pay to post) catching all the events as they happened.

I wuz there too.

I was here back when DU opened.

I got here May01, started posting Sep01, so what?

Got problem with this discussion, click on by. Bev's 'tude has gone unchallenged for too long.
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nomatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. Thank you for your response
I thought there would be a few people here from Salon,
ya right so what?
I am not challenging your feelings toward Bev.

BBV was a thread topic that was participated by many here, as well as other sites. That's why I posted the other link. This isn't an exclusive found only here at DU. Here's my point, and this isn't about you.

All the topics related to 9/11 terrorism get put in the basement threads. You know that, I don't know that everyone posting on DU knows that, since there are only a few people who post there.

When someone post something related to say the collapse of WTC7, suggesting it was a controlled demolition, 6 or 7 of the same posters jump all over it, mockingly, holding to the gov't/media story. Whether or not there is any validity to it is not the point.

"Tinfoil hat" or "conspiracy theorist" labels beat down anyone who has ideas or information that differs.

Why would someone want to post and get beat up? Maybe no one is there because they are sick of the same arguments.

Since you were at Salon, you might recall how similar this sounds when Greg Palast (excellent investigative journalist) was working on the theft in Florida. You could be following it, gathering information, then it would get derailed.
No names, lets call it ego. Some challenged ego, and it went on until people just stopped posting. It took too much time to read everything. It just became a waste of time.
Greg's book went onto be a best seller.

I saw where Bev said she stop be posting here, so maybe that will be satisfaction enough. I, like others, was hoping to follow it here.

Got a problem with this discussion?
No. Now that I know this is what it is about and will continue to be about until....
when those wronged have had their say
There are how many threads about this already?
Click on by.

Hmmm, a bit snarky.
As people see Michael Moore's movie, and start searching out the truth in it, wouldn't it be a shame to be discouraged here at DU before they even started? People want to help change this election.

You missed my point completely. Electronic voting is not the only way they stole the election. Absentee balloting in Florida was in the 90% returns (some counties 98% ballots returned) for all counties. Those ballots got counted in with the ones at the polls. The also got edited in some counties.
People at DU have said GOP friends admitted to voting twice.

The list goes on. Some information disappears, soon after it is published on the net, the more eyes the better.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. On public boards...
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 02:23 PM by yowzayowzayowza
a signal-to-noise ratio is a fact of life (despite the STUPENDOUS EFFORTS of our FANTASTIC modz). The noise you perceive here is of Bev's making.... I, therefore, suggest you take up your concern with her.

There are how many threads about this already?

Specifically, two; and, the last two of Bev's threads have been over-run by her failure to respond to her own charges.

This discussion does not keep anyone from continuing their BBV efforts. So, I guess I just do not understand your expectations of those wronged. Facts are facts; people have been hurt. Like it or not.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. I would like to point out that this
is the only thread I started on the topic.

Other threads concerned other topics initially, but moved toward this topic for one of two reasons: Bev's lawsuit and Bev's renewed assault on people criticizing her.

When the criticism got heated, Bev fired back:

"Now, as to all those allegations that I accused "Lynn Landes" and "Rebecca Mercuri" "Denis Wright" etc of Qui Tam -- show me. Show anyone. YOu can't back that up. It's bullshit, as much of the "sandbox" was. Never happened. Go pull that stuff, if you claim it happened. Show me a quote that accuses any of the above or shut up."

Evidence was provided and Bev left rather than own up to the truth.

You'll notice that Bev had oodles of other charges which I have not addressed. Bev will tell you its because I can't. Unfortunately, I can. I choose not to pursue them at this time because it will damage Bev severely. How do you know I'm telling the truth? Well, go back and re-read the threads and check out who's providing tangible evidence to back up his claims and who just posts accusations without proof.
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nomatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #69
76. Thank you for your reply
You've answered my question. I wish you well David Allen since this is your thread, and you wished Bev and the cause well. I hope your publishing business succeeds, really.

Thank you too, yowza. You are right.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. Not holding my breath for an apology
If you don't get an apology, can you move on? Don't get stuck in this.

One thing I learned in my dealings with Bev: She doesn't apologize or admit error.

The record is finally getting set straight and the result is Bev can't handle the truth she herself asked for. What was said here will gnaw at her and she will continue to snipe in other venues. When she does, the truth will follow here there.

The question is, can she let it go? Will her ego allow what she sees as brazen disloyalty to go unpunished?

I think not.

She will continue to come after me and the others who dared to defend themselves. As she gains more money, she will push the issue until she can file suit against us. She will then lose it all in court where hard proof rather than bluster is called for.

The fight goes on , with or without her.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. I see this coming to a conclusion very soon
unless of course Bev chimes in again with further er unsupported accusations toward the DU activists or David. Also...I'll be watching Jim March and his merry band of Libertarians for future disparaging comments ("commies") that Mr. March spewed at DU and it's activists.

Bev jumped in the metaphorical bed with this guy and hasn't made one act of contrition to DU regrading Mr. Libertarians slanderous remarks to DU ,David and others.

So in a nutshell: Bev hurled accusations at plan9_pub/David.
David asked her to support her allegations, Bev could not.

David on the other hand provided plenty of proof in the form of emails and scanned documents to as the immortal George Tenet would say, "SLAM DUNK" his case and retain his reputation.

BBV has become bigger than one person (Thank God).. There are a whole bunch of folks to thank for this including Bev. SO don't think a squabble like this will destroy this monster of a movement. But make no mistake...What went on here the last week had to be done. Reps were at stake, and without your reputation you ain't nothin!
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. March's alledged "Libertarian" views
I'll be watching Jim March and his merry band of Libertarians for future disparaging comments ("commies") that Mr. March spewed at DU and it's activists.

Having spoken before a Libertarian group recently and having associated with them for a number of years (and having thought of myself as one for a bit) I can tell you that TRUE Libertarians don't call liberals commies. They tend to view both political parties as supporting a police state.

Only conservatives call liberals "commies".

Fortunately, Bev chose this course after the anti-BBV movement had gained mainstream support.

I will pursuing other redresses from Bev privately, but fear that she cannot keep this just between us.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #61
75. & it's goodnight from him too (some final thoughts)
(I think that is what the other Ronnie used to say when signing off._

Righto then.

Some final remarks from me.

I think the last two threads have done a good job of canvassing the issues and giving David an opportunity to respond to his accusers.

The serious remaining issue is the publication and distribution of the book. Bev's book (in case you are reading this Bev. But a book which many of us here contributed towards and one - to use Hunter's metaphor - that we particpated in the birth of.

The Book - Black Box Voting in the 21st Century - is the important child in this relationship bustup. And I suspect it is a book of which many of us are intensely proud.

I for one am truly honoured to have been involved with this project and honoured to be included in the book.

The book has received several offers of publication and distribution by bigger publishers. Penguin for one..... negotiations for publication have failed partly because of this conflict between its two parents - Bev and David.

As I understand it Bev has officially handed over this matter to her board. And from one of the earlier posts I deduced that RedEagle is one of these board members. Jim March is another.

Firstly to Red.....

See if you can do a deal with David for how to resolve this matter contractually. This book deserves wider distribution.

Secondly to Jim...

I am sorry that several of those here have insulted you and your motives. Personally, regardless of what you may have said in various fora, I hugely value your contribution to this exercise (for reference those who do not know what I am talking about have a look at http://www.equalccw.com/voteprar.html - Jim stood up to Diebold when everybody else was getting pretty scared - including me. He has been a courageous and effective member of the BBV movement).

Unfortunately the fact that you are NRA affiliated and more than a little brash means that you inevitably will get a lot of stick around here... but please do not take it to heart. It is the Book that is important here.

As for the Qui Tam, I in fact have always thought that Bev should take a Qui Tam and even encouraged her to do so. It was she that thought it would be a betrayal to the movement. As long as it is persued with high motives and goodwill to democracy it will be an extremely effective means - probably the most effective means - of bringing the hijackers of democracy to heel. That you have been able to do so and continue to do some of the most important work being done in this movement is a tribute to your skill and that of your lawyer.

Therefore... Jim...

I encourage you to work with Bev and the rest of your board to get this book into the bookshops in advance of the election. This is in all of our interests and I think it would be the best thing that could possibly be done to heal the unfortunate scars that have been exposed around here in recent days.

Bev....

If you are reading. I would be happy to discuss this all by phone with you. In the meantime you go girl... keep the faith... and Kia Kaha. You are the superstar Diva of the BBV movement and I am proud to have had an association with you. It is just that I am also proud to have had an association with David too.... perhaps you can consider me a sibling of the book who is fighting for its just treatment by its two parents. (enough of the baby metaphors .ed)

Peave and Love to all

Al

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. I am, as always
willing to do all I can to get the book in book stores. I have told Bev this and the one and only publisher that ever contacted me that I would consider any reasonable offer. Unfortunately, it never got that far as Bev refused any deal that included me.

I never spoke to Harper-Collins, but Bev said that I "was the problem". I don't know how I could be a problem when I never spoke to anybody.

The book is no longer available for sale on my site. I will continue to offer the PDF version. Books remaining in my stock are being given away. A new edition may printed, but it will be sold at cost or given away if I can find the funding.
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nomatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #77
79. Wait a minute!
To get the book in book stores.....
The book is no longer available for sale....
maybe a new edition if I can find funding......

Right Here Right Now .....this book should be available to be read for a follow up to F9/11 and these games are being played?

WTF! You are a publisher, do your job and get over this. I would be fuming if you did that to something I wrote, then when all this free publicity was handed on a silver plater via Michael Moore, you were on these threads pouting she was mean to me. How long, gonna wait to the elections when it doesn't matter. Or maybe you'll decide when the money's right just before the election.

Bev, contact Michael Moore or any democrat who is Serious about getting our country back. I don't care about ALL of you who did this work, she credited you, write your own book!

Don't hold this information hostage to stroke your ego. Look at all the people who have gone to this movie, and are looking for the back up information or they are just going to believe Hannity or Limbaugh.
No not everyone is on the internet. Look at the sales of all the books currently out there.

Our sons and daughters are dying in Iraq and you're on your velvet thrones.
You ought to be ashamed.
Talk about Control Freaks.
Flame Me. Go ahead.
Man, I thought this was just a verbal battle.
You're taking hostages.


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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #79
112. The book is available from
Bev at her web site. She is publishing her own edition and you can buy it from her and put all the money in her pocket.

Also, the book is available for FREE in PDF form on my site.

Please tell me again why I'm the bad guy?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
63. Just want to add my impression. David is the Dennis Kucinich of publishing
He does it for truth and justice to prevail, NOT MONEY.

The man is simply not motivated by huge profits. If he were, he wouldn't devote himself and most of his time to discovering small market cartoonists and writers. He looks for anything heartfelt that rings true.

Some of you may also recall the RISKIEST undertaking in regard to BBV was accomplished by David when he accessed the Diebold conference call and took notes of what was discussed.

If that's not going out on a dangerous limb, what is?
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. Thanks for the vote on confidence,
but the riskiest thing I did was take possession of the Diebold memos. Not only did I have to worry about Diebold's lawyers, I had Bev threatening me as well. She was completely opposed to my getting them.

The phone call just required brazenness. <s>

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Well, I appreciate your brazenness. You're helping to preserve democracy
and took greater risks than many realize.

I only wish more had the opportunity to know the astoundingly dangerous efforts you made to gather the information that is driving the issue.

You're a patriot, David, and fair people will come to that knowledge.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #67
89. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #63
82. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:22 AM
Response to Original message
81. Deleted message
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. No...
Bev crossed the line repeatedly. David is perfectly justified in setting the record straight.

This is far from the first time Bev has "turned" on her allies. It's a shame, but it's impossible to follow her story and not realize that she has some serious issues.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. I'd say a publisher BRAGGING that he only paid his finest author $2,000
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 05:51 AM by stickdog
(while broadcasting her dire personal financial situation) is one of the sickest, most depraved, most reprehensible and most pathetic displays of pettiness I've ever seen.

How about you?
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. You're
insinuating that he's made money off the book and is holding money back from Bev Harris. Do you have any evidence for that?

I think you know very little about publishing in general, and specifically, you don't know squat about this book. Have you seen sales figures? I doubt you have, and yet you have no reservations about making sweeping statements about them. I know people who've written books and had them published by some large companies - they made next to nothing, financially, for their efforts.

You also mischaracterize his post. He didn't "brag" about paying $2,000. He merely mentioned it because it was relevant to his point.

If I had to decide who has more integrity between the two parties involved here, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to pick David. Bev has repeatedly shown here that she's a mean, vindictive, petty liar.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. Deleted message
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. of course I don't agree
You don't know anything about the specifics here.

Neither do I. But I DO know that small-press publishing isn't the cash cow you seem to think it is.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #87
90. Deleted message
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. I don't know how dumb "y'all" are
but I have a sense about you specifically.

You're being outrageously rude over a topic you don't know anything about.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. I'm simply bringing a little logic to bear on a subject that obviously
needs some.

But please, keep up the personal attacks. They always suffice when reason fails.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #93
95. You're an odd one to be lecturing on personal attacks
the problem with your "logic" is that it's not based on any facts.

You don't know the first thing about how much money BBV has made or hasn't made.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #93
96. That's a bit rich SD... I think you started the personal attacks
The rest of us were about done and were keen to put this baby to bed.

You seem to have woken up all riled and decided to pour petrol on the fire.

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #96
100. Dude, I simply read the thread for the first time.
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 06:17 AM by stickdog
Then I saw the check scan. Front and back. Then I read the bs (personal and private) dirty laundry about Bev's problems with bills when she asked for this modest advance.

Then I read the bs sob story of the great, selfless publisher who couldn't make his best author $2,000.

What the fuck I am supposed to make of this insane crap?
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #100
103. Read the links in this thread (above)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

In particular read the thread that started this.... David had no intention of airing any of this in public. Bev kept dragging it into public... and in a strikingly similar insulting manner to that which you have adopted.

Apart from anything else selling a book that has been given away online on at least three websites is not the easiest ask in the world.. especially if you are selling it online only.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #103
107. But arguing over a fucking $2,000 advance????
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 06:39 AM by stickdog
Posting the fucking check scan and publicly complaining that it was advanced only because of the author's personal and private financial duress??????

PPPPPPLLLLLLEEEEEAAAAAASSSSEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #107
116. READ THE FREAKIN' THREAD
I posted the check GIF because BEV_CLAIMED_I_DIDN'T_PAY_HER_AT_ALL!

She made this claim several times, and knew it to be a lie each time. Just as she knew she was lying about smearing other people over 'qui tam'.

And since Bev demanded PROOF, proof was provided.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #100
115. Actually, my best author, financially speaking
is a guy named Pete Abrams. While I could have been publishing three of his books and making lots of money, I was instead working on Bev's book which I felt was more important, despite the fact that:

1) Bev was being difficult
2) the book could get me sued

Pete's books sell quite well and they have the added advantage that when I am selling them Pete doesn't sabotage my efforts by screaming to all who'll listen that I'm a criminal,

As to, advances. While I don't pay advances (never had and Bev knew this coming in) I pay a much higher royalty per book than anyone in the industry and I pay monthly or quarterly.

Normal practice in the industry gets you an advance and a royalty check about once a year.

Depite the fact Bev wasn't entitled to an advance, I paid her one because she claimed hardship. Then, this person who has been telling me how dire her situation is, waits a MONTH to cash the check. What's up with that? I had also paid other expenses involving her web site and even plane fare and a hotel for a trip to Swarthmore which she then ducked at the last second.

While concentrating on this book, I set my normal prodcution schedule
aside and concentrated on BBV. I answered the phone, helped with interviews, answered the hundreds of emails streaming in, maintained the web site and much more.

How big do you think Plan Nine is? How about two people. Yep, me and one employee. My wife helps out on occasion, but she has a regular full time job, a job that has been paying Plan Nine's bills while I worked on BBV.

Then, no sooner do I print the book and start shipping it, Bev's lawyer is on me to STOP selling the book and turn over everything, with no compensation. Then when Penguin Books comes along and wants to buy the rights to the book, Bev kills that deal herself by telling them she's re-writing the book and she won't be party to a deal if I'm involved.

Please, explain to me how I am the bad guy here. If Bev had swallowed her ego, Penguin would have bought the rights and the book would have been in every book store in the country by now.

You really need to get your facts before making accusations.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #91
94. Dookus has a point
Stickdog and companions... you have arrived at this thread rather late... tis well over 24 hours old now for starters.

Secondly.. your principle premise appears to be that he should have been able to sell more books.

1. He is only allowed to sell on the internet...
2. Not long after the book was published Bev started white anting him...
3. He has now sold out and is waiting on some resolution of all this crap before risking any more of his capital on this venture... meantime Bev has her own imprint in the marketplace.

David will be able to answer all your questions here but I suspect he will be loath to do so while you are being so rude.

al
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #94
97. Al, he's BRAGGING about paying Bev $2,000 while airing her personal,
private financial struggles and acting like the wronged party.

If that's supposed to impress someone, it sure ain't me.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #97
99. Bev is the one who aired all this
David is defending himself, and rightly so.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #99
101. Deleted message
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #101
104. I repeat
that you don't know ANYTHING about the specifics of this case. You're all worked up based on your assumptions.

Since you seem to know the details, tell me: how many copies have sold and how much money did David make?

If you can't answer those questions, you're just making an ass of yourself.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #104
108. Deleted message
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #108
110. No..
there's a third option: You don't know what you're talking about. I'm going with that.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #101
105. I think you can only characterise that as an opinion...
.. & a misinformed one too boot. David may or may not be the world's best publisher. He has never claimed to be in the big leagues but he did get the job done in extremely difficult circumstances. Knowing as I do the circumstances in which the book was delivered with Bev hiding out somewhere in the woods.... I think he did a damn fine job. Plus all the above prooves something else too.. that Bev is not the easiest writer on the planet to deal with. Many lesser mortals would have washed their hands of all of this by now... David has no desire to make a fortune out of any of this... he just wants his reputation back. And all the insults flying out of you - allegedly in defence of Bev, but more precisely echoing her own opinions on this matter, are not helping at all. Insulting and attacking the people you are working with is counter-productive - so lets stop. The enemy is not David it is Diebold et al.

Now I am going to bed...

Goodnight
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #105
109. Let me make myself clear. I don't approve of Bev going ballistic on DU
anymore than I approve of this horrid little thread. And I realize that there is more to this story than this petty $2,000 advance completely bullshit non-issue.

However, if I were an author of a book like Black Box Voting and my publisher had advanced me a mere $2,000 for it and he later had the gall to BRAG about it as if I owed him because of this tiny advance, I'd be siccing a lawyer on him as well regardless of any other facets of our relationship.

Now, is Bev being patently unfair to David in other ways? That may well be the case, but this little piece of putrid underwear doesn't help David's cause in any way, shape or form.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #109
118. Stickdog
it is not a non-issue. Okay, you are a publisher and I am a writer.

I have a manuscript which I have promised to deliver, yet I miss deadline after deadline, in fact your book is a year late. As the publisher you have the right to drop me, but because you believe in the book and feel that some of the delays are justified (not all, some) you are going to hang with me.

During the production of this book I am very difficult to deal with. I pick fights with people providing crucial research to me and accused them of unethical conduct. I come crying to you that no one is going to take me seriously because they'll claim I am in it for the money. You agree to publish a electronic version of the book FREE to eliminate that criticism, despite what it will cost you (and me).

While all of this is going on, I secretly file a law suit designed to make myself lots of money, a law suit I accused other people of filing and that I know leaves me open to charges of "being in it for the money".

I complain to you that I am in dire financial straights and you should pay me an advance even though it wasn't in the contract. I get the check, then wait a month to cash it despite having told you all about not having heat, etc.

Then, shortly after the book is published, I unleash a lawyer on you, telling you to stop selling the book and turn all rights back over to me. When a big publisher offers to buy the rights, I queer the deal rather than allow you to be part of it.

Later, I get on a public forum and smear you. I claim you never paid me anything and that you "stole" the book from me. When my law suit becomes known and people attack my hypocrisy, I deny ever having accused anyone of anything and demand they prove it. I continue to attack you as a crook. When proof is provided, I withdraw from the field claiming victory and allow my proxies to continue to attack you by distorting facts and deliberately misreading posts.

How do you feel about me at this point?
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #97
102. I am not certain that you are aware how this started...
Bev accused him of stealing her book... she then challenged him to provide evidence to back up his claims that he didn't... this is the evidence....

And while $2000 is not much... it is proof that Bev did get something when she claimed to get nothing.

As for sales... David was kindof limited in how he could sell the book by his contract and he had barely started to do so when Bev launched her own version, started calling his version illigitimate and threatened him telling him to stop selling it. Who exactly is responsible for this screwup?

David has said he is happy to handover to a major publisher.. but is he supposed to just suck shit on the way to handing over all the work and effort he has put into this. Bev seems to think so... hence this thread.

Please be constructive.. calling David names just perpetuates all the pain and BS around this.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #102
106. Deleted message
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #97
117. You miss the point
First, she claimed she never got any money. Second, in retrospect, having sent her the money and then seeing her take a month to cash the check, I feel I was being used. Why take so long to cash a check if you have bills. to pay? This occured around the time Bev filed her 'qui tam', so perhaps there was some discussion with her and Jim March about whether they needed to get Plan Nine out of the piture then, rather than later and cashing the check would make that impossible.

I don't know, I just know that waited a month to cash a check she told me she desparately needed.

I am not Harper-Collins or Penguin Books. $2,000 is two months salary for me, which is exactly how I paid it.

Also understand that on a number of occasions I offered to tear up her contract and let her take the book elsewhere. When she wanted to take the book to a bigger publisher I told her go ahead. Then, for some reason she runs around telling people I queered the deal by not releasing the rights.

What more do you want from me? I have done the best I can dealing with a very difficult person who could start a phone conversation with a compliment and end it shrieking insults.

Where the HELL do you get the idea that I am BRAGGING. There is NOTHING in the context of what I wrote that any reasonable person can interpret as bragging. Your inference suggests your hidden agenda.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #87
113. Gee, you go to bed for a few hours and miss
a lot.

Let me guess, lots of nasty comments about all the money I'm making?

Geez, people do not understand anything about this business.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #84
111. Bragging, where do you get bragging
No sooner do I get the book out the door , than Bev sics a lawyer on me to stop selling the book. She also begins telling everyone NOT to buy the book from me. If the book isn't selling on my end, whose fault is that,
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ronabop Donating Member (361 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:58 AM
Response to Original message
88. Okay....
So she did "typeset" it (pagef*cker? How retro. Use Quark, like real publishers...)? Did you attempt to charge her for typesetting, or for formatting or for editing? (Check out her contention before you respond to avoid embarassment).

This all looks so much like an ugly music industry split-up. The label wants to be paid, the artist wants to be paid, and it gets really ugly.

You paid out a pathetic 2,000 dollars advance. Have your recieved 2,000 dollars in net gains, and if not, how much do you figure is still due?

Oh, and I don't buy for a single *second* that her rights to privacy would be violated if you posted your own business records. Your business records are *your* property, not hers.

So far, your defenses are typical of sloppy record labels, not of a person slighted.

-Bop
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #88
92. Exactly. If she hasn't made back her advance, it merely proves his
complete and utter incompetence as a publisher.

Nothing more and nothing less.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #92
114. Deleted message
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #92
120. My, you are up on your Bev talking points.
Again, no sooner does the book start shipping than I have a lawyer breathing down my neck to stop me and Bev running around with her own edition claiming anyone buying mine is stealing from her.

Try actually reading what I am saying.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #88
119. Sorry you don't "buy it"
But I will not post anything without a written document allowing me to. Bev can post the documents if she pleases.

Explain the logic to me of why my refusal on reasonable grounds is suspicious, yet Bev's failure to post the same records (which she can without my permission) is not?

And no, I did not charge her for "typesetting" her document.

You may think $2,000 is "pathetic" but it was offered and accepted. I would guess that Bev could have gotten and advance of 25 times that if she hadn't scared of Penguin Books. How bright is that?
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
121. locking
This thread doesn't seem to be supporting discussion any longer. Locking.

Thanks for your consideration.

DU Mod
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