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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:20 PM
Original message
Turning the US into a Theocracy - Why do nutbar fundies hate America?
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 01:25 PM by redqueen
Reading about wacko former Chief Justice Roy Moore going around on a tour with that waste-of-space monument made me want to comment on the unadulterated IDIOCY of these MORANS! Do they really not know their history? Really?

There are TONS of sites on the net where you can find the true intentions of our country's founding fathers with respect to religion's ties to government - that there SHOULDN'T BE ANY!

This is one of my favorites of these many sites -- please post yours or comment on the stupidity of theocrat morans! :)

http://www.anotherperspective.org/advoc550.html

It always helps to look at the words of those who were the actual founders and creators of this nation two hundred and twenty six years ago. Witness the truth of the matter.

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world ...

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. , in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."
Thomas Jefferson

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."
Thomas Jefferson

"Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins ... and you will have sins in abundance. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator's name by it to this filthy book."
Thomas Paine

"For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate error so long as reason is free to combat it."
Thomas Jefferson

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God."
Thomas Jefferson

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
Thomas Jefferson

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."
Thomas Paine

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."
Thomas Paine

"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good."
Thomas Paine

"Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions."
George Washington

"Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society. "
George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 726]

"There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
George Washington, address to Congress, 8 January, 1790

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause."
George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792

"...the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction."
George Washington, 1789, responding to clergy complaints that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, from The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness, Isacc Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore W.W. Norton and Company 101-102

"If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists.... "
George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

"To give opinions unsupported by reasons might appear dogmatical."
George Washington, to Alexander Spotswood, November 22, 1798, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

"...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution."
George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover


"As the contempt of the religion of a country by ridiculing any of its ceremonies, or affronting its ministers or votaries, has ever been deeply resented, you are to be particularly careful to restrain every officer from such imprudence and folly, and to punish every instance of it. On the other hand, as far as lies in your power, you are to protect and support the free exercise of religion of the country, and the undisturbed enjoyment of the rights of conscience in religious matters, with your utmost influence and authority."
George Washington, to Benedict Arnold, September 14, 1775 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover


With just these examples, you have the facts necessary to rebut any fundamentalist who proclaim this to be a Christian nation "just as the founding fathers desired".

The fact of the matter is much simpler. Every single nation that has ever been forced into the folly of following any of the silly superstitions invented by the greedy and ignorant has come to ruin and catastrophe. The single most fatal disease that can afflict any government is to be inflicted with the wasting infection of any fundamental religious disorder. Witness every single nation ruined by the sickness of fundamentalist Islamic governments. Witness the depths of evil that America has descended into now that self described fundamentalist Christians have stolen away your government and dedicated its future to the murder of anyone with the least hesitation in following along with their evil plans for the world and the oil it holds. God doesn't care about nations or governments or politicians. Why would any god worthy of the title care so much as things of so little value?
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. They hate us for our freedom, of course!
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. They hate every thing, including themselves
Nothing really ever satisfies these zealots... so I am wondering when it comes time for the Angel Food Cake, ( assuming they get invited ), how will they stand it being in a place that is sweetness and light 24 / 7 and populated by good christians ?

Whom will they have to oppose for religious / moral reasons?
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Snoggera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. They are ignorant
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 01:40 PM by Snoggera
and bred from day 1 with fear. Fear of god, fear of doing wrong, fear of going against authority.........fear 24/7. They are incapable of thinking any other way because they are weak. Therefore, they believe what they are told without questioning. It is easier that way. To question means one must put forth some effort, and be capable of accepting results that don't conform to preconceived notions/expectations.

They wish to remain ignorant, and there is a paternalizing group now known as Republican leadership who are more than happy to accede to their wishes.

edit: forgot to mention this was an excellent post.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. Great link & a couple more great quotes
TONS of info on this site... and very well-researched!

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quota...

Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church
Ed and Michael Buckner
Foreword by Clark Davis Adams

This is a compendium called "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church" by Ed and Michael Buckner. I have broken this into 6 parts. The total size of the files is approximately 250K. This is not an ordinary quote list.

Ed Buckner is a professional researcher who lives in Atlanta, Georgia. An active state-church separation activist, he and his son, Michael, have compiled this list over the past couple of years. Originally, this was a pet project designed to help Ed counter fundamentalist editorials. However, it has grown to be published and offered for sale at various Freethought and Civil Libertarian events. Ed has a column in _Freethought Today_, called "In Others' Words" in which he uses "cryptoquotes" to present these quotes. He offers the hard copy of this compendium for sale in _Freethought Today_ for $9.00. But, you get it free. I have also just learned (9/30/93) that this has been accepted into the Library of Congress.

All of these quotes have been throughly researched. None are "out of context" or otherwise misleading. For example, the bogus John Adams' quote, "...this would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it ..." is not included.

This compendium is an excellent reference for debating zealots who claim that this is a "Christian Nation", all of Founding Fathers were twice borns, and other nonsense.

(huge snip)

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State."
Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Samuel Kercheval, 1810; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 370

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Baron von Humboldt, 1813; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 370
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's fascinating how the right wing likes to lay claim to
what the founders thought on this issue of church and state.

In fact, the founders had a mistrust of any concetration of power - and the merging of church and state is such a concentration of power.

It's amazing to read these words from our founders. They've truly been high-jacked by the right wing.

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jimshoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
6. Thanks for the post,
I admit I had not read any of the quotes before, and yet I am in agreement with all of them which I read. Certainly no one can read these missives and come away with the idea that the founding fathers were willing to put their stamp of approval on any kind of theocratic government whatsoever. Further if some of today's fundies should happen to read some of the above quotes, I am quite certain their heads would explode.
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. Holy crap! I'm saving this one.
Great post! I need to re-read my Jefferson books.
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I would love to have Hannity or Limbaugh try and explain this!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Good... I think we'll need it!
From the 'partial birth' abortion ban to changing our Cheneying CONSTITUTION -- the reich-wing is definitely on the warpath to turn this into an American version of the Taliban.

:cry:
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gpandas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. nice group of quotes...
few americans were taught these ideas, as knowledge of the truth would lead to the end of the churches. thomas paine is rightly honored for his patriotism, but his book, "the age of reason" rarely comes up at any of my religious discussions unless i mention it mysef. church style book-burning? what irritates me the most is the stupid 'blue laws'. why do we still have blue laws, or why did we ever have them? why should i have to alter my behavior because of religion of others. we both know THE ONLY PURPOSE OF RELIGION IS TO GAIN POWER OVER THE THOUGHTS AND MINDS OF OTHERS.
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Snoggera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. We all come to many points in our existences where we must ask "What if?"
What if I had done that instead of this?
What if they had not done or said that?
What if this hadn't happened?

What if everything I've been told has been a lie? A creation of men who wanted to remain in power, and learned that the quickest and easiest way is to promote religion (whatever religion - doesn't matter) from the time of birth? Why do Catholics go through a ritualistic ceremony cleansing a baby (a baby, for christ's sake) from original sin? Could it be that is the most efficient method for continuing the tradition of following without thought? Pass the traditions on to the next generation from the time they are only a few weeks old?

I'm not picking on Catholics. I was raised as one, so have a personal interest in considering the trappings of that particular belief system, but the ideas may be applied to all.

If someone actually gets to the point where they are ready to throw off the mental barriers to thinking individually and rationally, they are the type of people that the founding fathers would be proud of. I wish there were more of them around.
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gpandas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. i think there are more...
around this forum than i ever imagined. there are neurological reasons for the ritual and it's effect.
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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Why pick on baptism?
A baptism is basically just a rite of passage, signaling/symbolizing the child's inclusion in the community, which in the Christian tradition is represented by the church.

All cultures have rites of passage. In fact baptism is probably less painful or harmful than many of them. One can also argue that one reason teenagers in our society have so much angst and conflict is that there's no agreed upon "coming of age" rite of passage. Getting one's driver's license or turning old enough to drink legally don't quite do it.

Sorry, I can see where you're coming from, but I've been lucky enough to grow up without being hijacked by a religious mafia which says, "You have to think THIS way." It's possible to think _both_ rationally and metaphorically; in fact I feel that doing so enriches life.
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InkAddict Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. Heaven is their home - Auchtung!
Fatherland ( St. Edmund)(6.4.6.4.6.6.6.4)
Published in The Hymnary, Novello, 1872.
In some hymn books this tune appears as Coelestis.

1Im but a stranger here, Heaven is my home; Earths joys will disappear, Heaven is my home. Danger and sorrow stand Round me on every hand; Heaven is my fatherland, Heaven is my home.

2 What though the tempest rage, Heaven is my home; Short is my pilgrimage, Heaven is my home. And times wild wintry blast Soon will be overpast; I shall reach home at last: Heaven is my home.

3 There at my Saviours side, Heaven is my home; I shall be glorified, Heaven is my home. There are the good and blest, Those I love most and best; And there I too shall rest, Heaven is my home.

4 Therefore I murmur not, Heaven is my home; Whateer my earthly lot, Heaven is my home. And I shall surely stand There at my Lords right hand: Heaven is my fatherland, Heaven is my home. Amen. T. R. Taylor.
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
14. I want every lurking freeper to read this
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Thanks, rumguy, I do too.
:kick:
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CHestonsucks Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
16. Great post.
One of the best I've seen on this subject.

Refer to Article 6 of the Constitution.

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Snoggera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. kick
:kick: :kick:
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snoochie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
19. "God doesn't care about nations or governments or politicians."
Great post. I hope more religious people get this information.
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tnliberaldemocrat Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
20. Agreed..
Fundamentalists are one of the most dangerous groups in our country, and this comes from a born-and-bred Southern Baptist here.

On a side note...does anyone have a link to the questionnaire about Bible quotes? I forget what it's called, bit I remember a part that went like.."if I can own my neighbor as a slave can I buy Canadians or Mexicans?"

Thanks
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Do you mean this?
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 05:59 PM by lastliberalintexas
Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1 :9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21 :7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.



And welcome to DU!


on edit- some of the verses were turned into smilies! a) is Lev ch 1, verse 9; b) is Exodus ch 21, verse 7!
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
21. The misery loves company crowd.
My friend's preacher is telling his flock to vote Bush. The fundies are the absolute WORST problem we have. I'd like to rapture all their asses.
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. kick
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
23. they hate our freedom is right, but they basically hate everything
the root of religion is self loathing, topped only by one's lothing for everyone and everything else.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
24. Self-righteous kick!
:kick:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Another kick for our visiting freeper friends!
:hi:
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
26. .
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