Democratic Party platform withdraws support for Kyoto treaty....

[mike_c]

Couldn't find this already posted, and of course the muzzling of the anti-war dems has gotten far more attention.

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=1770

Wednesday 7th July 2004:
Democratic platform rejects Kyoto treaty, supports war and wall in Israel

Dems Delete Support For Kyoto Treaty in new Platform.

<snip>

In a shift from the party's 2000 platform, the Democrats have dropped a reference to endorsing the Kyoto treaty on global warming.

------------------------------------------------------------

Debra Saunders made hay with this in today's SF Chronicle:

Warming up to a new treaty?

WHEN SEN. JOHN Edwards addressed The Chronicle editorial board in February before the Democratic primaries, I asked him if he would ask the Senate to ratify the Kyoto global warming treaty. "Yes," the presidential candidate answered. Then, he added, he believed Sen. John Kerry shared his position. Wrong.

The next day, when presidential candidate Kerry talked to The Chronicle editorial board, he said that he would not ask the Senate to ratify Kyoto.

Now the Democratic Party has dropped support for Kyoto (a plank in the 2000 party platform) from the initial draft of the national platform for 2004. John Kerry, you see, is no Al Gore, who negotiated the treaty for Bill Clinton in 1997.

<more>

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/07/15/EDGT07LEVS1.DTL

[Forkboy]

1. sigh

[patricia92243]

43. I agree!!

[Canuckistanian]

2. And replace it with..... what?

Not doing anything is not an option!

[hatrack]

3. Maybe they'll unveil a "GHG Intensity Register"

You see, through voluntary measures and amazing new technologies, we'll reduce the amount of emissions per dollar of GDP, and that way, even though the total amount of GHG emissions will increase, we can proudly point to this accomplishment and say that . . . oh, they already did?

Oh.

Never mind.

[nose pin]

5. A Canadian solution?

Duct tape the mouths of all politicians. That will reduce the greenhouse gasses immensely.

eedited fore speeling.

[hatrack]

9. But we're only looking at the highest CO2 concentration since the Eocene

No big deal, we can handle that. Nothing to see here, move along . . .

[bleedingedge]

37. Luckily, I don't believe in the Eocene, so I'm good <eom>

[hatrack]

40. Well, I'm still an Eocene fundamentalist, but to HELL with the Mesozoic!

And don't even get me started on the so-called "Proterozoic Era"!

[bleedingedge]

56. Eoceneists are heretics! Paleozoic Is The One True Epoch!

[hatrack]

59. Fie, infidel! Fie, I say!!

Get thee behind me, thou unclean Old-Earther!! Take up thy aeolian Jurassic sandstone, thy Mississippian mudstone and GET THEE HENCE!!!!

[resist]

4. Sorry Friend

Surely NO ONE here truly believes that the Kerry/Edwards administration is going to be vastly better than the one we have. Kerry has been a politician first and last for a very long time. If we really wanted to vote with our hearts and risk something, we'd have supported Dennis.

[Literate Tar Heel]

11. and Bush would have won by 20 points

when the country has swung as far to the right as it has, you can't swing it all the way back to the left at once ... risking another 4 years of Bush and his criminal buddies to make a point really isn't acceptable at this point in history, which is why Nader is a traitor to everything he professes to believe in ... you have to start somewhere which means you have to first win an election

[mdmc]

41. yup... seems like Kucinich is in the wrong party

Dennis asked, "Why not Universal Health Care?"

Why not Kyoto?

Cobb supports Kyoto. Nader too. :kick:

[info being]

51. It isn't about swinging...its about leading.

People like a leader with a vision that makes sense. Its that simple. But amidst all the "electability" non-sense obvious truths like that get snuffed.

[Literate Tar Heel]

63. "electabililty" isn't exactly nonsense

Kucinich seems like a nice enough guy and he has some good ideas, but truthfully the only place he was going to lead us was to 4 more years of BushCo. ... the fact is that on a national scale, he's just not electable ... maybe Kerry can find a nice place in his Cabinet for him though

[StandUpGuy]

80. No Way

Show me one (1) stat or statistic that shows the American people have shifted to the right.

I have asked people like yourself to do this before with no results.

If the American people had shifted right....

Would Bushco need Orwellian double speak?
Would the GOP be desperate to redistrict the entire country ?
Would the SCOTUS have had to install Bush
Would the entire GOP need to LIE LIE LIE
Would the GOP need Celebrity candidates

So again I ask anybody to provide solid stats that can be certified beyond the GOP or Cooperate media ?

So ask yourself WHY then is Kerry desperate to run to the center/right ?

[TucsonGreen]

101. Kerry isn't exactly a win...

...and the country hasn't swung to the right. The left has just given up, stopped voting, or sold out and started pretending like voting for Kerry has anything to do with being progressive.

What real progressives in the Democratic Party SHOULD do at this point is start raising a ruckus. DEMAND that the delegates re-insert Kyoto and a plank on fuel efficiency. Start an email campaign to the Democratic Leadership, congresspeople, everyone. Letters to the editor. The whole MoveOn phenomenon. Kick ass, take names, and make a difference in this party you claim is so much better than Bush.

But I'm not gonna hold my breath...

[Amarant]

104. No way

is this country MAJORITY right wing. Not possible. If it was society and culture would reflect it - but society and culture here is almost always of liberal nature.

I think the problem is there is no true left party to vote far - and as such 50% of the population stays home.

[demwing]

73. Sorry you're sorry

for surely I DO believe that Kerry will be superior to Bush. Even if Kerry and Bush agree on some issues (and I'm NOT saying that they do, mind you :) ), Kerry's stand on the constitutional separation of Church and State is enough to make Kerry VASTLY superior to Bush.

[resist]

90. Yea, you're right

But it just makes me want to weep to think there was actually a real live democratic candidate talking about something as stupid as a department of peace. As an official child of the 60s, do you have any idea how long I've waited for that?

I think I need a Dennis Kucinich with the hutzpah of Rush Limbaugh.

[Speck Tater]

6. Is there ANY reason left for being a Democrat?

Maybe I'm really a libertarian, or maybe I'm beginning to recognize the utter futility of trying to change anything in a government that is bought and paid for by big business.

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. Well, you are welcome to join us in the Green Party, but

a lot of us are voting for Kerry just to spite *.

[Forkboy]

13. I'm with you after November

:)

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. Terrific! We'll need help rebuilding the GP after it dies in several

states due to people voting for Kerry.

[Forkboy]

22. We'll see how it's doing here in Ma at that point

If you any info regarding the GP in MA I'd love to see it! Thanks!!

[GreenPartyVoter]

42. I don't know anyone down that way myself, but I bet

folks who are busy in the Maine GP do.

Here is that MA pary page, at any rate. :) http://www.massgreens.org/

[Forkboy]

62. Thanks GPV

I appreciate the link a lot. :thumbsup:

[GreenPartyVoter]

66. Any time. :^) *wave*

[formernaderite]

93. And yet the democrats wonder why half the country doesn't vote...

...if a truly progressive candidate ran we'd see more people inclined to feel a change could be made. Feeling very frustrated right now.

[GreenPartyVoter]

102. Which is why I put my energy into fighting for election reform

We need to get the masses involved in the process again.

[whosinpower]

36. Different flavor, same Sh*t

Either way, Joe American public has been and will continue to be manipulated by government and its corporate sponsors.

A revolution may be in order. Clearly the system does not work as it stands today. Government does not work for us - Joe middleclasspublic - as much as they blather on and on that they do - they serve the interests of those corporations that line their pockets the most.

Enron and its settlement is a perfect example. The settlement is not dollar for dollar of what they overcharged.....god it is infuriating.

[Mari333]

7. Sad. so damn sad. Goodbye, USA, goodbye anything left thats

decent, or compassionate, or life giving and life fulfilling.
Goodbye.

[Deja Q]

12. And there is no place TO go...

we're all stuck on this planet, heavily dependent on an energy resource that's due to become less than 'economically viable' within the next decade. Asshole traitor reagan ditched a number of alternative energy policies saying they were 'obsolete' when the OPEC oil crisis ended. * has been no help either.

That is why we can't leave iraq - the US now has to guard every pipeline EVERYWHERE to keep itself going. And that's going to cost money which in turn whittles down our economy that much more... it's all very complex, but I can sum up America in two words: "We're boned."

[Mari333]

18. Leaving the US is the only way I can now live with myself.

Breaks my heart..leaving my mom and sisters and brothers, leaving my home, leaving where my ancestors are buried, leaving it all.
Bush has destroyed this country, corporations have ruined it. No reason to stay anymore. Leaving in the spring.

[LittleApple81]

24. Where are you going? Just curious, you don't really need to tell. n/t

[Mari333]

26. somewhere cheap , somewhere I can hide. n/t

[LittleApple81]

I feel very sad about where the rightwing has taken this country.

I was not born in the USA but have loved it since I got here... but now it is resembling my country of origin more and more: oligarchy, small middle class, disenfranchised population.
I hope the dream does not disappear totally. I hope it can still be rescued. IT IS GOING TO REQUIRE A LOT OF WORK AND SACRIFICE to get the US out of the Repug quagmire.

[Mari333]

89. What saddens me is that I was born here

I have my gr gr grandfather's sign up sheet for the Civil War, my father was in WW2 and fought over Italy as an Army Air Corps tailgunner, my ancestors came here from all over the world to find a better land, to become farmers and blacksmiths, and my mothers family too..
The Bush administration, and many DINO Dems, have destroyed everything I have worked for for the last 30 years of my life, every social program, every decent and compassionate thing , and have destroyed my family with their policies..our income, our children being taken to Iraq to a war based on lies, everything is destroyed.
Thats it. I wont allow them to destroy my family anymore.
The USA is no longer a country I can call my home. It has turned its back on us, and on many many good people.

[LittleApple81]

Mari333, we can work from Kerry to something better. We can't do

beans with Bush*.
I would have loved to vote for Kucinich, a green, somebody who is a lot more concerned about "silly" things such as the environment. But with Kerry we might have some elbow room (HOPEFULLY).

[GreenPartyVoter]

52. Let us hope so. We need to be LOUD after he is elected, so that he is not

fooled into pandering to the loudmouth religious right because they claim to be the "majority".

[blm]

8. As president Kerry can get a BETTER Kyoto treaty

crafted more with his input. He always wanted a better treaty and helped craft the current one. He didn't have the power then to push through the greater protections. For gawdssake people, Kerry worked on that treaty for almost 10 years and helped make it a better treaty.

In 2005 he will have that greater power.

Smell the roses, folks. They are there if you understand his actual positions on the environment and how he wants to promote those positions with the rest of the world.

Funny how noone complaining now ever gave Kerry credit for the ten years he worked on the Kyoto Treaty in the first place. Now you want to ASSUME he intends to scrap it altogether without replacing it with a better treaty.

Sorry, but that's just pure ignorant kvetching.

[rinsd]

15. 98-0 in the Senate the last time....

I don't see how strengthening Kyoto is going to make it more palatable for the Senate to ratify.

[Viking12]

29. Has never been voted on...

the 98-0 is BS. Perhaps you are referring to the non-binding Byrd-Hagel resolution passed 6 months BEFORE the treaty was negotiated.

[hatrack]

44. And Byrd-Hagel was a "Sense of the Senate Resolution", wasn't it?

That is, having zero force in law.

[rinsd]

98. You are correct...

I had thought it was a vote for ratification. My mistake.

Some more info for any interested:

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA258.html

[mike_c]

16. I'll believe it when I see it, since leaving Kyoto in would have...

...signalled his desire to actually do something about U.S. contributions to greenhouse gas emissions. Note that the platform does not contain any replacement objectives-- it just dropped support for the only treaty yet negotiated. Didn't Bush also use the argument that "Kyoto is flawed?"

[blm]

25. Bush was biased against it altogether, befitting his fascist pov.

Kerry was for it but KNEW there were compromises that didn't protect the environment and labor as much as he would have liked. He would know because he was one of the govt. representatives forced into the compromises.

You can moan and try to paint Kerry as the same as Bush but real environmentalists will understand EXACTLY what Kerry will do and THAT is why they are behind him 100%.

[G_j]

34. so does the platform say

anything about the environment, climate change, alternative enrgy? I haven't actually seen it.

[Q]

21. So then....Kerry is only PRETENDING he doesn't support the treaty?

...Or perhaps it's better that we don't TALK about it before the election? Don't want to be called 'environazis' or 'wild-eyed liberals' for wanting PUBLIC DEBATE on important issues BEFORE we vote.

- I realize that some Democrats think this 'strategy' (of ignoring or meekly addressing issues) is somehow 'brilliant'...but it really turns off MANY on the left when they see their party of choice backtrack and concede ground.

[blm]

35. No. But he has the opportunity to craft a better one as president

with a power he never had when he was crafting it for 10 years as a Senator representative for the US.

He is well aware of that distinction. You can try to imply he has no integrity when it comes to the environment but real environmentalists will disagree with you heartily.

[RichM]

23. Oh bullshit. He's a complete sellout, a corporate lackey, & the only

halfway-decent reason to support him is that he supposedly "isn't as bad as Bush." The famous ham sandwich is better than the candidates of BOTH major parties.

Incidentally, your constant chirping about "understand(ing) his actual positions" is about as interesting as watching detergent commercials. The only thing hard to understand about his "actual positions" is the stilted boring language he uses, which ties itself into knots to avoid risking or saying anything.

[blm]

30. So you ALWAYS say. Sorry, I don't trust your destructive viewpoint

when it comes to anything regarding Kerry.

According to you he's no different than Bush. THAT is destructive and untruthful, imo.

[Forkboy]

33. By the same token

a lot of us are too cynical to accept your positive outlook ;-)

[blm]

45. How many gave a shit about Kerry's work on the Kyoto Treaty before?

NONE.

So, I know they don't understand one bit where Kerry is coming from and they call him a corporate whore ad nauseum, despite the fact that he never took corporate pac money throughout his Senate career. There is no credibility in ignorance.

[Forkboy]

61. Sorry blm,you're wrong on this

A LOT of people cared.The environment is one of the things I DO trust Kerry on,and stuff like this is just one more disheartening thing to ponder.

[blm]

69. Isn't that the point? If you trust Kerry on the environment then

you can trust Kerry on an environmental treaty. Noone knows that treaty and where it can be improved better than Kerry.

Would you rather he renegotiated that treaty with the power of a US President or he just ratify the one he was able to secure as a representative of President Clinton?

[Forkboy]

70. Not arguing

just seems like he's shunning everything on the left right now.I'll love to be wrong on this issue though :)

[JI7]

74. how is it shunning the left to actually want to do something about global

warming ? the kyoto does nothing about nations like china and india which will contribute heavily to global warming in the future and currently. isn't the point to do something about global warming ? if so then we need to bring in nations like china and india which kerry wants to do and which is why he wants a better treaty than kyoto. he actually wants to get things done rather than make empty statements which does nothing about the problem at hand.

and he actually has a record to back up what he says unlike some people.

[redqueen]

84. Took the words right out of my mouth

Developing nations were given a free pass, and since all the manufacturing plants are moving there...

[sangh0]

88. They didn't care about Kyoto when Kerry was for it

but now that the platform has dropped it, all of a sudden it's a critical issue.

[mike_c]

111. if that were the case then I'd have expected the party platform...

...to reflect that dedication. Instead, they simply threw out even the luke-warm Kyoto protocols. They didn't replace Kyoto with a "better" GH gas reduction plank.

[blm]

91. Heh. And I'll be glad to let you know you're wrong.

Trust me. ;))))))))

[dmkinsey]

60. It's going to be a long grueling slog

to Nov if we have to listen to the continual bitching and crying from people who hate our candidate.
Hmm, don't like Kerry, listening to him speak is too boring, understanding his positions too complex, he's a war-monger, planet burner and he's exactly like *.
Maybe you shouldn't be here

[Forkboy]

67. Maybe you shouldn't be so presumptous as to tell people

whether they should be here or not :shrug:

[StandUpGuy]

94. Don't you hate it when ...

People say "Our" candidate.

If DU is just the Democratic parties spot to blast RWrs and grovel over the great leader/candidate then I will no longer proudly where my DU t-shirt and will definitely stop sending progressives to this site.

ABB is even more dangerous than Another 4 years.

DU will become irrelevant very quickly if people think they can't question or criticize the leader.

I have been reading for over a yr and posting for a few months and I have started noticing very active members dropping off.

Most of those have been called every name in the book before they leave.

Crack pot
instigator
troll
disruptor
conspiracy theorist
etc etc



F&%k Bush we know what his problem is and we know what his solutions are.....We need to spend NOW forcing Kerry into a progressive stance....Your dreaming if you think you can influence him one iota after he has grabbed power on an anybody but bush platform.

[TucsonGreen]

108. HEAR HEAR!!!

This is the spot for the progressives to mobilize and make sure that Kerry doesn't turn into Clinton II. People who attack anyone who criticizes Kerry are the same people who will smugly sit on their hands in a self-satisfied glow as he becomes a corporate whore in office.

Don't forget, Clinton gutted the social safety net, signed DOMA and failed to raise the minimum wage until YEARS into his presidency...all because progressives sat back and let him be conservative.

Stop whispering. Start shouting. Now, and after we kick Bush out of office. It's the only way...

[StandUpGuy]

110. Every time I see a Naderite get flamed ....

I hear John Kerry laughing.


The Only way to force Kerry to take a progressive stance is by threatening to vote Nader.

When you flame a Naderite you help the corporate machine steamroll over the democratic party.

So think twice before you worship at the Kerry alter.

[tabasco]

57. Don't confuse the utopians with facts.

- It's more fun to sit around and trash Dems and watch Bush build roads in the national forests. I'm sure Al Gore would have allowed this.
- Kerry will get us to a treaty before the Bush-enabling utopians.

[Minstrel Boy]

14. If it seems like progress when you're merely spinning your wheels,

you'll never get anywhere you want to go. You'll never even consider that the car is junk, and you need a new model.

And most of the time, the United States is flooring it in reverse, and not even checking the rearview mirror.

We are living in a truly tragic time, and not just Americans.

[K-W]

17. I'm still optimistic.

We are fighting momentum with the progressive movement. The reagan area plunged the democratic party into a nosedive into conservative waters. I think we are now fighting back and this is just some momentum, its gonna get a little worse before it gets better, but we cant become discouraged. When the voters change thier thinking, it takes a while to get to the top of a party organization.

[iconoclastic cat]

20. Headline: Many DUers only read headlines! Extra! Extra!

What I see here is an opportunity to retool what may be some outdated policies, as well as strengthening environmental protections.

If you want Kerry to know that this concerns you, let him know! Loudly! And often! Sitting around a message board proclaiming doom and pining for John Anderson will do no good whatsoever.

[Q]

28. Retool?

- Like Bush* is 'retooling' many of the environmental regulatons and protections?

- Kerry KNOWS this 'concerns' us...he just doesn't care. Why? Because he has outright admitted that he's taking the liberal/progressive vote for granted...and going after votes on the right.

- They can shit on us all they want and we'll still vote for them because Bush* needs to go. What a sorry state of politics.

[iconoclastic cat]

48. The minute Kerry gets into office, bring this same pressure to bear

and start pushing. You aren't helpless in this, Q. Use Dennis, Howard, and all the rest to keep moving things in the correct direction.

[onehandle]

32. Ha ha!

Most folks around here are googling that name right now. ;-)

[onehandle]

27. Deleted to keep issues out of Bush's hands, and/or create one.

This is just politics, folks. Kerry has an incredible environmental record, and will build something better.

[MadHound]

31. Well, let's see here

Ditching Kyoto, staying the course in Iraq, retaining the Patriot Act, protecting and expanding "free" trade, what's left?

Oh, yeah, Supreme Court replacements. And we aren't even guaranteed that those will be liberal, just maybe, perhaps, a little to the left of Bushco nominations.

The closer we get to November, the more of this kind of crap comes out, the harder it gets for me not to go Green all the way. Kerry is just another bought and paid for corporate whore.

And for those of you about to pipe up with "you can't get everything you want", just STFU now, because we are getting NOTHING!

[Dying Eagle]

38. Fuck Them

This shit is getting old. Lets replace the donkey with a "small" elephant!!!

The Kyoto treaty was one of the top 5 things that I cared about in this election.

JK, don't listen, get the treaty done!!

[iconoclastic cat]

49. Have you let him know how important it is to you?

I really doubt he reads DU. Try a fax. Shake some cages.

[HootieMcBoob]

39. From Kerry's website

John Kerry understands that some of our most serious environmental challenges – and opportunities – are taking place on an international stage and that they require American leadership in the international community. Unlike the Bush Administration, John Kerry will not abdicate this responsibility and opportunity.  When John Kerry is president, the U.S. will reengage in the development of an international climate change strategy to address global warming, and identify workable responses that provide opportunities for American technology and know-how.  And a Kerry Administration will meet new challenges associated with the global exploitation of marine resources and the global crisis of access to fresh water supplies.

Kerry's administration will do worlds more than a Bush administration. Look over what he's actually proposed overall regarding the environment on his website: http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/energy/

[mdmc]

50. does that say

I have an energy policy, but it does not include the Kyoto treaty?

[porphyrian]

53. So, we get to choose between half a shit sandwich or the whole thing? -n/t

[NeonLX]

58. Get the hip waders out...the sh!t is getting mighty deep. nt

.

[One_Life_To_Give]

46. Didn't Kerry vote against Ratification?

Didn't the Senate vote unaminously to not ratify the treaty originally? The current version still exempts the developing world. We need to carry the lions share of the initial burden but giving China, India and SE Asia a free pass to pollute is foolish.

[hatrack]

47. It's never come up for ratification

Byrd-Hagel was only a resolution, not a treaty vote.

[DaveSZ]

54. Bla

I guess Kerry will be another corporate whore.

I may as well vote for Cobb or Nader then.

[recidivist]

64. Bingo. Kerry was right to vote no. Fix Kyoto before ratifying it.

Amidst the blizzard of arguments pro and con about the Kyoto treaty is one flat-out show stopper. That, as you point out, is the fact that the treaty as written exempts the major emerging Third World countries.

Unless and until that is changed, Kyoto is a complete fraud, at least as an environmental measure. Penalizing the U.S. while exempting India and China would simply shift production from the cleanest industrial nation to the dirtiest. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

If the purpose is to deindustrialize the West and equalize the global distribution of income, however, Kyoto is another story. I can see why China and India think kneecapping the U.S. is a nifty idea, but I don't understand why any Americans would go along. We are shipping too many jobs to India and China as it is.

[Old and In the Way]

77. Exactly.

More purists who care about ideas then getting elected. Give Kerry a huge mandate and see what progressive changes will develop. Bailing to vote for the GP is a sure strategy to maintain the status quo.

Bush lied to get selected;they will lie to maintain their power. Why should Democrats play by rules that will game results toward the Republicans? Kerry could run as an Ike Republican for all I care, if that is what it takes to get elected.

[redqueen]

85. Bravo!

:thumbsup:

[MUSTANG_2004]

86. Thank you for saying this

Outsourcing is already a problem. Enforce expensive environmental restrictions but exempt China and India and you've just given even more incentive to outsource.

As a long-time Nature Conservancy donor, I want to see environmental improvements, but Kyoto looks like we'd just be moving the pollution from the US to India and China, along with our manufacturing jobs.

[recidivist]

95. It's even worse than that.

Kyoto would not simply move pollution; it would probably INCREASE pollution. That's because the U.S. has among the strictest environmental regs in the world, while India and China are still in the bad old days of pea soup air and filthy water. For any given volume of production, a serious environmentalist should want as much of it as possible done here.

That's supposing we're thinking globally, as we are solemnly told we are supposed to do. So don't let anyone get away with the ignorant misstatement that Kyoto would reduce pollution. On a global basis, it's just the opposite. The only thing it would reduce is employment in the USA.

I'm all for Kyoto as soon as it is applied globally. But not a moment before.

[genius]

55. We need to push these guys to do the right thing

This is the problem with going for image instead of issues.

[DaveSZ]

65. It might be though

It might be that the deadline in the treaty for reducing our emissions cannot be met since it was abandoned earlier.

Thus a new treaty is needed.

[TexasSissy]

68. WTF? No Kyoto Treaty? I'm VERY displeased, if this is true.

:thumbsdown:

[genius]

71. Edwards has one of the worst environmental records. Kerry has one of the

best. I was hoping that we would get the best of each rather than the worst.

[sandnsea]

72. He always wanted to fix it

He always said it was wrong to walk away from the Kyoto negotiations because it was important work and he believed the differences between countries could be resolved. Kyoto always had problems and was never ready for passage by Congress. Again, consistent Kerry position on Kyoto if anybody had ever bothered to learn about it in the first place. Nah, running off at the mouth is always more fun around here.

[DaveSZ]

Well

Someone needs to ask him what he'd do about this.

[sandnsea]

78. He's already said

If you gave a shit, you'd know. Like BLM said, he's the one who's done alot of the hard work on this treaty in the first place. More than you ever got off your ass and did.

[JI7]

76. isn't that the truth

you would think people who actually cared about this issue would have listened to him speak on environmental issues and would have seen he wants a STRONGER treaty which actually DOES something about global warming. how the fuck do you deal with global warming if large nations like china and india are not included ?

kerry is a true progressive who actually wants to make progress by getting things done rather than make empty statements.

[mike_c]

112. you start by leaving some mention of it in the party platform....

eom

[genius]

75. Anyone wish they had voted for Dennis Integrity Kucinich?

[onehandle]

79. This DRAFT drops support for the Death Penalty.

Anybody got a problem with that?

"Also, the Clinton-era embrace of the death penalty is gone."

http://www.indystar.com/articles/3/159818-8473-010.html

[genius]

81. The California Democratic Party called for a moratorium - almost unanimous

Why don't they add that in. The DP used to oppose the death penalty. Oh, I guess the national DP doesn't have any guts. Makes me ashamed to be a Democrat.

[in_cog_ni_to]

82. Interesting

that this comes out now. AFTER he has the nomination. <sigh> This really saddens me. If he wants to come up with a "better" treaty, why start from scratch? Why not try to fix what's broken? He should be trying to send a DIFFERENT message to the world....not the same message the chimp sent. <sigh>

[bbmykel]

83. More moving to the "center" I guess

I don't know why the Democrats just don't Xerox the Republican platform and be done with it.

I see the Kerry spinners out in full force saying he will "fix" it and "make it better". Of that I'm sure, it's just a question of for whom. Clearly he wants Wall Street to believe for them and us to believe for the environmentalists. Vagueness is always preferable when one is trying to appeal to everyone.

Kerry's just very lucky that he's running against the worst pResident in history and he can (pretty much) take us for granted.

[redqueen]

87. Kyoto exempted developing countries, where MFG is moving

It needed MAJOR rework. People who see how flawed it was know that it was practically useless considering the growth of MFG in developing countries.

We all know John & Teresa are environmentalists. Is it really that hard to imagine that he'll fight for something a little more meaningful?

[bbmykel]

96. Of course it needed work

But the symbolism of deleting support for the treaty (or at least inserting words to qualify the support) sends a terrible message. It reinforces the notion that the Democrats (and Kerry in particular) don't really stand for anything.

Spin all you want, but it's political pandering that won't fool any of the voters that they are chasing.

And yes, it is getting harder and harder to imagine Kerry fighting for anything that costs him political capital.

[redqueen]

106. IMO it's railing like Kyoto would have been helpful that's pandering

:shrug:

[Fear]

92. jumping from nightmare to nightmare..........stay alert and stay

critical people!!!!!!! - otherwise they'll pull the same shit * pulls.....you elect them,they better obey the wishes of the people as well!

[fujiyama]

97. Dissapointing

but Kyoto was dying anyways. Kerry has one of the best environmental records in the senate. Were he to get elected, I can't imagining him not making global warming an important issue. He's mentioned it several times on the campaign trail - that it was a mistake to walk away from it.

Kyoto itself was flawed in many ways. The one thing Kerry can do is pledge to have the US abide by most of the regulations put forth in Kyoto. There were some silly things in Kyoto as well - couldn't countries trade with other countries over how much of certain toxins they can emit? It was sort of bizarre.

Plus, the environmental conditions in India and China are pretty bad. I've beed to India several times, and was in a major city. I constantly had trouble with asthma, etc. I've heard that cases of that have skyrocketed. I would assume China is about as bad. Developing countries must do more, not only for global warming, but for the general health of their citizens. Also, if outsourcing is to coninue, especially of manufacturing jobs (and there's no indication it won't), multi national corporations will shift to developing countries with less regulations, which really won't change much in the long run.

One more thing is that it was unlikely for it be ratified. My state's two senators are very progressive in many ways (Levin and Stabenow) but I can't imagine them having voted for it.

Kyoto was having trouble in many other nations as well. I remember hearing that Russia was walking away from it also. It looks like only EU (and I'm not sure if it was all of them) and opssibly Japan were in favor of it.

I hope Kerry does make the initiative in building a new treaty though. It's a problem that must be addressed and action must be taken now. As much as this administration wants to deny it, the science is in and global warming is an issue that has disasterous consequences.

[Selwynn]

99. Kerry is a shitty candidate... just not as shitty.

[8-Ball]

100. What????

That's one of the main things that I support!

Why would they do something like this?

[NeonLX]

103. Follow the money. nt

*

[belle]

105. Oh crap

[redqueen]

107. WOULD EVERYONE PLEASE READ POST #95 BEFORE RESPONDING!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1999382&mesg_id=2000301&page=

Oh how I LOATHE kneejerking!

:eyes:

[sangh0]

109. So how many of the phonies in this thread support Sen Byrd?

There are people in this thread who are posting as if they think that Global Warming is an important issue (now that the Dems have dropped it from the platform) but who have also lauded Sen Byrd, who is one of the Senates greatest contributors of greenhouse gases.

[bbmykel]

113. Talk about a straw man!

I doubt those lauding Sen Byrd did so for his environmental positions or his position on gay marriage (or a great many other things) but his courageous defense of the US Consitution and his opposition to the illegal war in Iraq. A courage--one might add--sadly lacking in other Senators.

Surely, Kerry supporters wouldn't advocate an "all or nothing" approach to evaluating Senator Kerry?