Plame indictments.....Thread 5

Here is thread 4:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Not to sound like a moron, but there sure is a lot of conversation here.

Ok, you can flame me now.

thread 1. There is a lot of info in the 4 previous threads, including the Plame investigation.

that's a fair question, and you don't sound like a "moron." Malcolm X used to say that the only stupid question is the one that remains unasked. So no one gets "flamed" on here for any sincere question or comment.

The thread started as a simple discussion of the Plame grand jury investigation. I played perhaps a minor role in getting this going, by pointing out that even as "mainstream" a media source as TIME had reported that Plame was a CI operative investigating the sale of WMD components when she was exposed by the White House. I asked what she was looking into that resulted in a White House action to derail her investigation?

I also noted a scene in the movie JFK that was based on a real human being. In it, Cosner's character meets "Man X" in the park; Man X advises him to focus on "why?" as opposed to "how?" .... and this wonderful thread, now on page five, explores the WHY? .... and has really done an intense job of answering the "how" as well!

It's been a fun experience. I think it's as good a thread as I've seen on DU .... or any other related source. I'm proud to have the opportunity to play a small role here, and to exchange ideas with so many insightful people. Glad to have you here.

played, H20. You got the brains working and that is no small endeavor. We all owe you a debt of gratitude.

If we didn't have you to confirm or refute our theories, how would we be able to continue this thread? We would just be stabbing around in the dark.

Also, I have to compliment you on your post to RatTerrier. Everyone here is important, all opinions are worthy of consideration, and there are no stupid questions. Some of us are very well informed (especially yourself), some are not. Even the questions that come from people who are not up on the info posted in all 5 threads can lead to interesting and valuable answers.

Respect for those of us (I include myself in this category) who are not experts on this subject is important. Otherwise we can become victims of "groupthink" and miss opportunities to expand the conversation into some important areas.

We are indeed very lucky to have you on our team.

I have enjoyed and appreciated, and admired your insights. I find myself suspecting that maybe you once worked in intel circles. Your observations are MOST intriguing and valuable, as well as relevant.

I really can't get the material on any of these Plame threads off my mind. I'm still stuck on the possible sting Valerie Plame may have been part of, and what she either uncovered, or was on the verge of uncovering, or what she maybe inadvertently stumbled upon - TANTALIZING. And I wonder if, with the Senate Intel report coming out that tries to pin it all on the CIA, what their reaction's going to be to THAT.

Will Pitt once pointed out that you piss off the CIA at your peril.

Thread 1: http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/plame-indictments01.... 05-Jul-2004 14:29 433k
Thread 2: http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/plame-indictments02.... 06-Jul-2004 18:11 516k
Thread 3: http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/plame-indictments03.... 08-Jul-2004 23:48 286k
Thread 4: http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/plame-indictments04.... 10-Jul-2004 08:45 353k

The only problem with them is that many of the links contained in the text are "truncated" so they do not give the full URL. The only way I know to fix them is by going through them by hand and making the fix -- very time consuming. One could, of course, just save the thread to one's hard drive as an archive or html source -- but I've found that even then they are so long it takes a while for them to open. Harder to print out, too.

BMU

Edit: typo

for your time in making these downloads. I'm sure I am not the only one who appreciates your effort.

you click control/f you will bring up a search screen and can put in the next number on the thread and click find and it will go there.

you click control/f you will bring up a search screen and can put in the next number on the thread and click find and it will go there.

The term of the grand jury could be extended for a year or more, particularly if the scope of the investigation has been expanded.

is pretty sure some stuff will come out 7/14. Read post #237 in thread 4.

very educated of coarse, but not insider stuff. July 14 is the anniversary of the publication of the leak by Novak, but why it has other significance isn't clear to me.

Hopes have been raised here that the indictments were imminent many times before, it just doesn't have the same impact as it used to. There is the possibility that the grand jury will adjourn with no indictments, we really don't know much.

The speculation is that the motivation is deeper than just "punishing" Wilson.

If its that deep one would expect the depth (or actual motivation, not the "public" motivation), to remain obscure, even if indictments are handed down.

I tend to be pessimistic about the indictments, too. We are hoping for the "killer app", but this has been said before.

If the indictments come down after the election, and Bush has won, I think this will work, perhaps, to Bush and the GOPs advantage in that Bush could be forced to nominate a VP, who would then be set up as heir-apparent for 2008.
Bush can do a "house cleaning" and sacrifice Cheney, and will set up a strong GOP contender for 2008.

Actual impeachment of Bush is unlikely if its shown that Bush just had a tangental role, or if we continue to have a GOP Congress.

The best case, for the Democrats, is that a Plame indictment and court case would lead to GOP losses in the 2006 midterm elections.

If there are no idictments, then all this enteres the realm of conspiracy theory.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&e=3...

"VIENNA, Austria - An investigation of the black market supplying nations wanting nuclear arms has spread to more than 20 firms — some of them North American — the chief of the U.N. atomic agency told The Associated Press Friday. A senior diplomat identified one of the firms as U.S. based.
Demanding anonymity, the diplomat also said the Syria and Saudi Arabia are also being investigated as possible buyer nations, beyond Iraq (news - web sites), Iran, Libya and North Korea (news - web sites) — the countries known to have been in contact with Pakistani scientist A.Q. Khan and members of his procurement network. "

Perhaps there is more than simple revenge here.

for which Halliburton was fined $1.2 million when it was discovered.

on thread 4 I discussed that Cheney shortly before he became Veep
was, in speeches, attacking US policy on prohibiting from his selling to Iran and Syrria and I posed the question, did Halliburton
maybe sell WMD to Saudi Arabia? and the other countries. For all we
know, the materials Pakistan acquired for their nuke could have been
through Halliburton.

One thing about the multi nationals corporations, they have no allegiance to any country. Only to their own bottom line.

Now "buyer nations" are being investigated "UN Atomic Agency" told AP.

"Supplier nations - some of them NOrth American"

"In separate comments to The Associated Press, IAEA Director General Mohamed ElBaradei avoided specifics on the locations of the firms supplying the nuclear black market beyond saying there were "over 20 countries, some of them in North America."


The diplomat said at least one of them was in the United States. He declined to elaborate, saying the agency "was not yet at the bottom of that story."
" But he said what is known about that company sheds new light on the activities of the network, known up to now for primarily supplying technology to North Korea, Libya and Iran as part of the process allowing them to make enriched uranium that can be used either to generate electricity or make weapons.


@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @

Okay, let's put them into some kind of context. Valerie Plame's job
was to track WMD sales, illegal, buyers and sellers. The agency had
a covert company whose cover was broken along with Valerie Plame's.

The agency CIA would have to move fast to not let all they had gathered go down the drain.

So they pass on their intel to the UN Atomic Agency and other intel
agencies so that the other intel agencies and countries can close in
and arrest the mavericks.

Cheney in thinking he had shut Wilson up and shut off the CIA/Plame
investigation of his recent dealings since 1995 in the nuclear world
did the opposite. Intel agencies and countries involved are forced to move faster because of the exposure.

And if anything, Cheney and Dimson's stupid move against Plame, because don't forget Halliburton/dimson enterprises and interests are
one, has brought his own downfall - and hopefully soon perp walk.

worked up the scenario that it was more than revenge and they
were after Plame for what she was discovering in her work as a covert
agent.

Good lord. Could you imagine Cheney walking into her office and introducing himself and asking what kind of thing she was working on?

Her fate and her husband's would have been sealed right the.

What a find Cassandra. We had the idea but not the proof.

You have just supplied the proof.

Wahoo.

I had just been reading the story on, I think, Eschaton, when I got to this thread. So thank the BIG bloggers because I wouldn't have been trolling through Yahoo on my own.

what we even have fathomed to this country, its laws, its social programs, its economy, its security, its reputation.

If by any chance, they pull another 2000, which I think is HIGHLY likely, or the martial law game, and there are no elections - the
congress must move for impeachment.

And if the Congress doesn't, some one else in government or out, CIA, military, must take action. I can't believe they would allow this
misadministration go on. If they don't take action to rid America of the dimson cabal, I think this country is going to look like Iraq, with guerilla warfare all over the place.

Jay Rockefeller is not through. As H20 says, he knows far more than he is being allowed to say at this time, but he's hinting very very
broadly.

I think if there were a normal election, which I dont think there will be, dimson would be impeached soon after. Knowing that, may be
another reason the administration would not take a chance on a normal
election and declare martial law.

I think we now understand even more why Rockefeller (Senate Intelligence Committe, don't forget) is saying this is the most dangerous moment in our history.
the most

This is, after all, John D. Rockefeller IV. And the suggestion (though I can't recall where I've seen it) is that he has been speaking over the past year not merely as a Senator, but as a representative of one major faction of the US power elite declaring war on another major faction of said elite.

But frankly, there are now so many behind-the-scenes wars and rumors of wars going on that I can't keep them all straight: CIA vs. administration; military vs. Pentagon; good, honorable CIA vs. rogue, power-hungry CIA; old-line northern power elite vs. upstart Texas power elite (though that one may be just a continuation of the Civil War); Bush's I's pragmatists vs. Bush II's Neocons . . .

Anybody selling scorecards?

in fact he instituted it.. There IS a power struggle, but with the ruling elites within the Skull and Bones Society.

Both Bush and Kerry are bonesman. I view the Bushes as the black sheep of all the organizations they belong to. They are only of use on specific occasions. When they become a public embarrassment, they are retired once again to obscurity for 10 or 15 yrs. That is until brute force once again, becomes necessary for the world to appreciate the benevolence America.

I don't know if you got to read my response to your answer regarding Clinton on Thread 4, but I really appreciated it. And again, your post about the G8 martial law in Georgia is one of the best posts I've ever read at DU.

On the subject of martial law, look what Newsweek has to say:

Exclusive: Election Day Worries
Newsweek
July 19 issue - American counterterrorism officials, citing what they call "alarming" intelligence about a possible Qaeda strike inside the United States this fall, are reviewing a proposal that could allow for the postponement of the November presidential election in the event of such an attack, NEWSWEEK has learned.

The prospect that Al Qaeda might seek to disrupt the U.S. election was a major factor behind last week's terror warning by Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge. Ridge and other counterterrorism officials concede they have no intel about any specific plots. But the success of March's Madrid railway bombings in influencing the Spanish elections—as well as intercepted "chatter" among Qaeda operatives—has led analysts to conclude "they want to interfere with the elections," says one official.

As a result, sources tell NEWSWEEK, Ridge's department last week asked the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel to analyze what legal steps would be needed to permit the postponement of the election were an attack to take place. Justice was specifically asked to review a recent letter to Ridge from DeForest B. Soaries Jr., chairman of the newly created U.S. Election Assistance Commission. Soaries noted that, while a primary election in New York on September 11, 2001, was quickly suspended by that state's Board of Elections after the attacks that morning, "the federal government has no agency that has the statutory authority to cancel and reschedule a federal election." Soaries, a Bush appointee who two years ago was an unsuccessful GOP candidate for Congress, wants Ridge to seek emergency legislation from Congress empowering his agency to make such a call. Homeland officials say that as drastic as such proposals sound, they are taking them seriously—along with other possible contingency plans in the event of an election-eve or Election Day attack. "We are reviewing the issue to determine what steps need to be taken to secure the election," says Brian Roehrkasse, a Homeland spokesman.

—Michael Isikoff

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5411741/site/newsweek /

This from a man who thinks Michael Moore is a liar, who is obviously too dense to know a trial balloon when he sees one. Most dangerous moment in our history? You better believe it.

reporters to court in order to force them to reveal their sources, if it WAS'NT for real? I don't think so. And those reporters know who outed Plame. Simple.

Someone outed Plame...only a few could have known what she was really doing, and they are ALL high up.

None of the rest of what has been speculated here may ever see the light of day, even if it is what happened, but somebody is going to prison over the outing itself.

Joe Wilson basically says that man is Karl Rove. I hope he is right. If so, I'll bet he squeals like a pig, and they all go down.

There are two wings in the Republican party. The old guard wants McCain. The people "in control" will push to make brother Jeb heir apparant.

Then we will have Jeb as President and how will we get rid of him
because as far as we know he hasn't done any of these illegal things
that we can prove yet....except take bonafide voters off voting rolls
because they are black or white democrats who happen to have the same
name as convicted felons.

In Jeb's Florida that's enough to make you guilty.

That mega-bitch will be their candidate, you watch!!!!

which comes from the Scandinavian (or "northern" Germanic) root "geta." And as we all know, "geta" means that a person has a bias that results in conjecture upon their part .... a "guess" can therefore not be an opinion, because an opinion is based on facts and insight ...... so in the literal sense, a guess is a prejudice, a form of ignorance in action.

I do share your sense of frustration .... it would be great if the case unfolded on Wednesday .... and I do believe we will get some information that has been scheduled to be released on that day .... although there are forces fighting tooth and nail to put a stop to that.

In the mean time, I am taking great pleasure in the intense fact-finding effort being carried on by a circle of very good minds on here
.... an effort that has taken the "guess" out of the equation.

And I like to keep in mind one of my favorite quotes from Spinoza: "If the way which, as I have shown, leads hither seems very difficult, it can nevertheless be found. It must indeed be difficult, since it is so seldom discovered. For if salvation lay ready at hand and could be discovered without great labour, how could it be possible that it remains neglected by so many people? But all noble things are as difficult as they are rare."

I think that fits this situation.

preparation for the trial, new evidence develops, then they can obtain superseding indictments. It is not an uncommon practice.

Edited to add:

Let's say small player(s) gets indicted. Then small player succumbs to pressure and decides to give larger players. Small player agrees to a lenient plea in exchange for grand jury testimony. New grand jury hears evidence and returns a superseding indictment, adding charges, defendants, etc. It happens all the time.

case at once, you could amend the charges/pleadings it's called in a
court case once, but amending twice raises eyebrows...

they have to get it altogether.....

don't forget Starr kept going on and on and it was perceived as
hunting/harrassing.

When you present it as a solid case,that can be simply understood such as a leads to b, to c, to d you are
more likely to get your conviction.

An indictment can be brought against minor players with the hopes that they roll and give larger players. You can then present the testimony of the minor player to another grand jury and obtain an indictment.

Superseding indictments are not uncommon either.

I'm away for two days and I can't catch up! I'm still reading thread 4.

darn - we lose so much every time we go to new thread.

the good ones from all 4 threads into a coherent whole and make a series of posts. That might cut them down to size a bit.

Like the 9/11 Timelines. Then we can keep re-posting it

Then you really see the whole pattern of criminal behavior in one shot, as Detectives always create in solving a crime.

Who volunteers??

We need all the known facts in chronological order, 1-2-3....

Then we can use the timeline to educate other forums as well.

On the indictments coming: they have to be soon. The Grand Jury was NOT extended, so the report is due. Starr kept extending his Jury on his wild goose chase and so it dragged on for years.

Fitzgerald didn't have to.

that referenced the extension.

Edited to add extension thread
==================
lancdem (1000+ posts) Fri Jul-09-04 12:01 PM
Original message
Important update regarding Plame grand jury

Investigative reporter Wayne Madsen, whom I've been corresponding with via email, told me that the Plame grand jury has been extended through July at the request of prosecutor Fitzgerald. This explains why there've been no indictments. It's obvious Fitzgerald wants the journalists' testimony (the hearing yesterday was about that) before wrapping up the investigation.

My sense is, their testimony would be icing on the cake. Given the impact this case could have, especially if high-level people are implicated, Fitzgerald must make sure any indictments have as much evidence behind them as possible because they'll certainly be fought by the WH.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Thanks!

right leniency of the media, is not only disheartening, in my mind it makes them culpable for all the tragedies that have transpired at the hand of the admin.

Not seeing press releases does not mean that something hasn't happened. Remember, the grand jury is a secretive body. Don't be discouraged if you don't read about its term, functions and/or the scope of the investigation.

Better it remain secret than to allow witnesses to be intimidated (or worse), jurors to be intimidated or bought, and of course the risk of an unfair trial because of all the press.

I hope everyone here gets the daily news updates from democrats.com .... today they have some information from Peter Bergan:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1254003,00.ht...

I hope that works ...... it refers to the bush/cheney forces using the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative Washington DC think-tank, as its source of information on Iraq and WMDs. The AEI is closely associated with Richard Perle, the administration's key architect of the "get tough" on Iraq policy, and Paul Wolfowitz, the #2 official at the Pentagon.

The key source of AEI policy on Iraq is Laurie Mylroie. Who is she? What can our research staff find out?

*edited to add to the link

http://www.benadorassociates.com/mylroie.php

and link for the Guardian Article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1254003,00.ht...

Can't understand why yours didn't work, it looks jsut like mine.

Some links to articles she has written:
ALL IN THE FAMILY? by Laurie Mylroie New York Sun June 26, 2004
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/5451

THE SADDAM-9/11 LINK CONFIRMED by Laurie Mylroie FrontPageMagazine May 11, 2004
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/4204

"DON'T LOOK AT ME" Dick Clarke's reversed reality. by Laurie Mylroie
NRO April 5, 2004
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/3178

VERY AWKWARD FACTS by Laurie Mylroie Wall Street Journal April 2, 2004
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/3126
Excerpt:
The credibility of Clinton counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke has come under withering fire. He has been caught in error after error, omission after omission.

WHAT INTELLIGENCE FAILURE IN IRAQ? by Laurie Mylroie Front Page Magazine February 5, 2004
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/1709
Excerpt:
David Kay, the recently retired head of the Iraq Survey Group, makes dramatic claims about Iraq's weapons programs, including "we were all wrong." But does he have the necessary basis to do so?


That should be enough to start, there is a whole page of her articles, I'm posting those separately.

Thanks!

He made specific references to her and tried to debunk some of her conspiracy theorys re Ramsi Yusef, I think.

MISHANDLING TERRORISM The law-enforcement mistake by Laurie Mylroie
National Review Online January 23, 2004
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/1412
Excerpt:
In his State of the Union speech, President George W. Bush identified the point at which America's response to terrorism went so badly awry: the first attack on the World Trade Center in 1993. Bush also explained what went wrong: That attack was treated entirely as a law-enforcement issue; "some of the guilty were indicted, tried, convicted, and sent to prison." Following the speech, one National Public Radio commentator gasped that Bush seemed to be blaming former President Bill Clinton.

That is, indeed, where blame lies. After every terrorist attack that occurred on his watch, Clinton would condemn the perpetrators and vow to bring them to justice. Yet there was a Catch-22: by treating terrorism as a law-enforcement issue, Clinton practically guaranteed that it would be understood as a law-enforcement issue — and the critical question of state sponsorship would receive scant attention. In many respects, the U.S. legal system was, and still is, ill-suited to dealing with major terrorist attacks.

SADDAM AND 9/11 by Laurie Mylroie and Jamie Glazov FrontPageMagazine.com January 8, 2004
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/1058
Excerpt:
In this edition of Frontpage Interview, we have the privilege of being joined by Dr. Laurie Mylroie, one of the foremost American scholars on Iraq and Saddam Hussein.

In her book Study of Revenge: Saddam Hussein´s Unfinished War against America, Dr. Mylroie provided substantial evidence implicating Saddam's involvement in four terrorist attacks: the 1993 World Trade Center Bombing; the 1995 bombing in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, the 1996 attack on the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, and the 1998 bombings of two African embassies.

"AL QAEDA DUNNIT!" THINK AGAIN by Laurie Mylroie NATIONAL REVIEW ONLINE November 24, 2003
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/719
Excerpt:
Most probably, the Istanbul bombings were the work of Iraqi intelligence, in concert with Islamic militants. As I have written — at length, throughout the 1990s — Iraqi intelligence worked with and hid behind Islamic militants to attack the United States. Now it appears that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, was, in fact, an Iraqi-intelligence agent. Most recently, The Weekly Standard has reported the extensive contacts between al Qaeda and Iraqi intelligence, while author Ed Epstein has provided fascinating new details on the Czech claim that Mohammed Atta met with an Iraqi-intelligence agent five months before the 9/11 attacks.

NRO INTERROGATORY : BATTLING THE BELTWAY - LAURIE MYLROIE INTERVIEWED BY K. LOPEZ by Laurie Mylroie NATIONAL REVIEW ONLINE September 11, 2003
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/562

The Baluch Connection by Laurie Mylroie Wall Street Journal March 18, 2003
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/283

The Circle of Terror by Laurie Mylroie National Review Online February 19, 2003
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/237
Excerpt:
The United States is ill prepared for what Saddam might do, as we take him down. The problem is circular, and the greatest danger is biological terrorism. The government cannot propose civil-defense measures without alarming the public — and that creates difficulties, including a loss of support for war with Iraq.

Pretty much the only way the administration can explain the dangers in the war coming, prepare the population to deal with them, and retain support is to explain clearly the reasons for this war. It certainly includes Iraq's proscribed weapons — but it also includes strong suspicions of Iraq's involvement in the 9/11 attacks.
snip
My comment -- That says it all doesn't it?

Understated by Laurie Mylroie National Review Online February 5, 2003
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/223
Excerpt:
Colin Powell made a strong case for eliminating Saddam and his regime ASAP. Indeed, in some respects, the information he presented was stronger than his conclusions; the case was understated.

a conspiracy theorist (reporter?) I believe who said that Atta met with an Iraqi official in Prague. The story that Cheney keeps refering to. Guess I'll have to google her.<G>

many articles on the subject, and apparent credentials. The one excerpt I thought pretty much summed it up:

snip
Mylroie's theories have bolstered the argument that led us into a costly war in Iraq, and swayed key opinion-makers in the Bush administration, who in turn persuaded Americans that the Iraqi dictator had a role in the 9/11 attacks. In November Mylroie told Newsweek: "I take satisfaction that we went to war with Iraq and got rid of Saddam Hussein. The rest is details." Now she tells us.
snip

She went to a lot of trouble to discredit Richard Clarke, blame Clinton, and find (nonexistent) links between Iraq and Al-Qaeda. After doing all that hard work, she then says, "The rest is details." If the rest is details, then why did she spend so much time on it? The poor woman must be exhausted. No wonder she starts freaking out and pointing her finger at the camera in that disconcerting manner.

Details, schmetails. Our freedom-loving, warm and fuzzy pres. and his staff would never deliberately take us into an unnecessary war, get hundreds of our boys killed, kill thousands or Iraqis, deprive us of our civil liberties, demolish the Constitution, and ruin anyone who stood in their way. Why, if they did, that would mean we are heading into a constitutional crisis. Don't be silly. * loves freedom. He likes to hug people, see? What a nice guy! Don't listen to all those flag-hating, freedom-hating, America-hating people, those seditious movie-making liars.

sarcasm off

Senator Rockefeller & his colleagues had better do more than just give gentle warnings at publicized conferences. Is there any hope that they will have the strength to fight * and his evil bunch?

and its laughable that all this time the media has been calling upon
"experts" from the AEI who continually pushed war and so on .

Same signatories as PNAC - but I remember googling them in the very
beginnng when there were just about 5 people.

google and see who their "fellows" are. If I'm not mistaken Gingrich
has shown up there too.

and why the fuck was LYNE CHENEY in the situation room on 9/11???

who the hell is LYNE CHENEY?

her own rite.

thanks for your wonderful writing and info, pallas180!

Sidney Blumenthal:" Washington, which was just weeks ago in the grip of neoconservative orthodoxy and absolute belief in Bush's inevitability and righteousness, is now in the throes of agonizing events and being ripped apart by investigations.

Things fall apart;
all that was hidden is revealed;
all sacred exposed as profane:
the military, loyal and lumbering, betrayed and embittered;
the general in the field, Lt. Gen. Sanchez, disgraced and cashiered;
and the most respected retired generals training their artillery on those who have ill-used the troops, still dying in the field;
the intelligence agencies, a nautilus of chambers, abused and angry, its retired operatives plying their craft with the press corps, seeping dangerous truths;
the press, hesitatingly and wobbly, investigating its own falsehoods;
the neocons, publicly redoubling their passionate intensity, defending their hero and deceiver Chalabi, privately squabbling, anxiously awaiting the footsteps of FBI agents;
Colin Powell, once the most acclaimed man in America, embarked on an endless quest to restore his reputation, damaged above all by his failure of nerve;
everyone in the line of fire motioning toward the chain of command, spiraling upward and sideways, until the finger pointing in a phalanx is directed at the hollow crown."

American Enterprise Institute. That's why when the bush polls are down, he's not grinning his Cheshire Cat grin. I saw one, recently, that he was interpreting, in which he looked downright funereal.

bad. He's on CNN -- so now they not only have Fox, 1/2 of MSNBC,
but infiltrating CNN


Then maybe his polls aren't to be trusted.

has some comments on her. Apparently her Arabic is not top-notch.

journalists' word to double-confirm it. If indeed, it's true that their being interviewed means they've reached the end of their investigation. I hope they're following the money.

It can be hard to transition from one thread to the next without losing several very important, on-going thoughts ... one of the most thoughtful and insightful was #235 on page four, by Tellurian .... I think that this sums up a huge portion of the the WHY the administration was giddy in their effort to expose Plame.

Yet the Niger information had already been discredited. No one believed it. And look very closely at bush's speech .... he was attributing this information more to British sources than Wilson's trip.

The key to this remains Plame's investigation. And remember that Plame was part of a well-coordinated effort that included other CI/MI resources, and some of the top deep-cover operatives from other countries ..... this mornings project: consider the intel operatives from other countries .... places like Germany and France .... connect some dots here.

Here's a starting point that could be fun: (and by "fun," I do not mean to imply any callous disrespect for the families that have suffered from the terrible events) .... is anyone here aware of the "warnings" that operatives from European countries gave to the USA before the Tim McVeigh incident?

John Doe from Oklahoma City and Jose Padilla are the same man!

take a look:



Lots of stuff you can google on this. Just type in Padilla and John Doe.

connected?

Was that hogwash?

No, they're not the same guy. There are sgnificant diferences in the nose, eyes and chin.

But I agree that John Doe #3 is still on the loose. The FBI didn't clean up all the corners on the McVeigh investigation.

drawn from someone's memory.

... say that it's Jose Padilla.

So you say that the lack of looking the same is do to inaccuracy of witness sketches. If they're so inaccurate, why do you assume that it's Jose Padilla????

Oddly enough, Richard Clarke, in his book, mentions Tim McVeigh having possible contact with these Islamic terrorists...in the Phillipines, I think. Though he was never able to prove an actual contact.

was brought out in detail in the book by the Simon Reeve called "The New Jackels." There is compelling evidence including phone records.

it also talked about plans for hijacking multiple planes (I think 17) at the same time and crashing them, as well as the plot against the Pope.

It was written prior to 911 and is a great account of the hunt for Ramsi Usef and interesting backgroung on the US funding if the Mujadeen in Afghanistan. Worth checking out.

Really closely to what this man says. Richard Clarke doesn't play with the truth.

I will say that the McVeigh thing is something I threw out here for a reaction ..... though for a specific reaction ..... we have a great research staff here, and with the Clarke comment, even if we do not nail it down with concrete evidence .... we have open our minds to some interesting possibilities. Small doors often open to large rooms.

you've all mentioned lots of books in these threads. I'm new to this and want to get started reading. What book(s) do you recommend I start with? I thought maybe Richard Clarke's.. and thanks.

(1) Worse than Watergate, by John Dean;Little, Brown & Co; 2004
(2)American Dynasty, by Kevin Phillips; Viking; 2004
(3) The Poliics of Truth, by Joe Wilson; Carrol & Graf; 2004
(4) JFK, by L. Fletcher Prouty; Citadel Press; 1992
(5) Farewell America, by J. Hepburn; Penmarin Books;2002

and for good measure:
(6)The Imperial Presidency, by A. Schlesinger; Houghton Mifflin Co; 1973

These are six books that I would recommend to anyone interested in the subjects being discussed on this series of threads. There are dozens of others mentioned by various participants in this on-going conversation that are also of great value and interest. The ones I have listed here are simply what I would suggest as a good introduction. I would note that almost anything -- book or article -- by these others, or cited as references in their works, are of value.

I'll get to reading as we say here in OK.

I am wondering if I'm turning into a tin-foil hat person . The weirdest thing is to read something in these threads, then see it in the paper on TV later.

some of our friends on DU express frustration at the major media sources for not reporting the news accurately .... or hiding the truth from the masses .... and this does happen, to an extent .... but more frequently, we over-estimate the capabilities of those men and women in the media .... they are not necessarily "gifted" ..... look at that horse's ass Sean Hannity: his world view is so rigid, that if he were able to absorb even a small amount of truth, he would crack. I'm not joking when I say that.

Those who are more likely to be able to recognize the truth .... and hence convey it .... are on occassion a guest on one of the commercial shows ..... but far more likely to have delivered the word in a book. I've mentioned Kevin Phillips .... a "must read" who really isn't going to fit the format of a Fox News show -- thank God.

The information you, I, and our friends needs is out there. If it's found on the pages of Dean's latest book once, but denied a thousand times a week on Fox News .... it's still just as true.

What amazes me is the ability of some of our friends to access good information from the internet so darned fast. Obviously, I'm dating myself as closer to the paleolithic era than to the high-tech computer age!

who flew to the Phillipines for explosives training with Al Quaida operatives there.

But there's still a strong connection to McVeigh and Oklahoma City.

links, published data on that from European papers, or is it just
conjecture?

Essentially McVeigh has been portrayed as a White Supremacist type
with many others following that type of thinking in the service at
(where was it he trained) Ft. Bragg, North Carolina?

one of the cable channels had information regarding operatives in the US that gave some warning about sources manipulating behind the scenes .... not warning exactly what would happen, but more of a warning what could happen.

I can not remember the exact title of the program. But I'm confident that the research staff we have assembled will be able to follow this lead.

It has some interesting implications.

was followed up on after Oklahoma, then no one heard anything else
about it. He was portrayed as a white supremacist type who wanted
to bring down the federal govt....it always seemed like something
was missing.

why would he want to do that?

If there are others in the army like him, and I would think after what
bushco has done to the guard and army in Iraq, there well could be, many coming back and saying "what was this for?" - then possibly just
possibly when dimson orders the army to turn on the people, they might not? ? ?

Why would the not publish his connections to Islamists?

We had already been attacked in 93 at the WTC and at embassies in
Africa -

Why would he not have left a manifesto, like the unibomber?

How would he have become involved.

H20 - don;t be such an enigma.

Start answering some questions, fella.

individual. One can only wonder if the military had the resources to provide supportive services to the men and women who return from the hell of war, would he have been able to deal with the bitterness that consumed him?

War creates a form of hatred that DEMANDS existence .... we need only look at the situation with the Palestinians, or Northern Ireland, or any one of a hundred others.... well, McVeigh became that hatred, and he was willing to do the stupidest, most evil act ..... and was confused enough to think his vile act was somehow patriotic. Look what that war did.... and believe me, I hold him 100% responsible for his actions.

But who was he connected to? Who may have found fertile ground in the sick mind of this fool? I'm not sure that this has ever really been answered.

Now ..... as for me being an "enigma" ..... that's curious .... I've said that at most I'm an old man sitting on a park bench, talking current events with a few passers-by. But what's important .... at very most .... is the discussion itself, not the old man on the park bench. Our culture makes far too much of personality .... and I'm smart enough to know that there's not much here to make too much of ...(grin) .... so I'm satisfied to keep the discussion on the current events.

http://www.geocities.com/gorevidal3000/tim.htm

McVeigh apparently wrote to Gore Vidal from jail, and they conducted an on-and-off correspondence for several years, until McVeigh's execution. Vidal doesn't seem to have found McVeigh at all confused or hateful. He describes him as someone who saw himself as a soldier at war and had a very clear idea of what he believed and what he felt needed to be done about it.

Vidal is also not convinced that McVeigh either built or personally detonated the bomb, but thinks he took the fall to protect his co-conspirators.

There's nothing really new in the article -- but the fact that someone as thoughtful and perceptive as Vidal was prepared to accord McVeigh genuine respect says a lot.

agree that a person who takes part in blowing up a federal building in belief that it is a patriotic act is indeed confused, and that a person who kills hundreds of people to make a political statement is indeed hateful. This is in no way inconsistant with his description of McVeigh as a man who believed he was a soldier with strong beliefs who took an action he felt was justified and necessary.

The book on McVeigh by Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck tells a similar story.

I think of Lee Harvey Oswald and James Earl Ray as confused -- unrooted young men with no particular direction in life, which made them particularly vulnerable to being used as catspaws by others. McVeigh as Vidal presents him is not at all confused in that sense -- he had a very clear idea of himself and his purposes. Also, Vidal describes McVeigh as someone who was not a "hater" -- that is, not a racist or white supremacist -- but rather a self-declared enemy of the government.

I'm not trying to defend McVeigh (though Vidal might be, to an extent), but to suggest that he falls into a sharply different category from Oswald or Ray or Sirhan Sirhan -- perhaps the best word is fanatic, someone akin to Osama bin Laden -- and that this has great bearing on what occurred in Oklahoma City.

Vidal's real concern in the piece is to answer the question of why McVeigh would have confessed to the crime if he was not the only or even the primary actor. In the process of doing that, he implies that something far more complex and genuinely "political" was going on than is generally acknowledged.

different way. I think that we are in general agreement.

James Earl Ray was a fool who was maneuvered like a pawn by fairly sophisticated sources. He did not shoot King, though. There were two other "teams" in place: one on the overgrown bank (mob-cop) and one on the top of a near-by building (which necessitated the removal of the black cops & firemen from their stations).

Sirhan is perhaps the lone example of "mind control" through hypnosis etc. He was one of two gunmen. He was not the better shot, obviosly.

Oswald was the exact opposite of what history has recorded him as. He was young, naive, and had good intentions. He also thought he was a lot smarter than those around him ..... but he had no idea how he was being played until the end.

I agree in general with what you are saying about McVeigh. As repulsed as I am by what he did -- and I find it beyond belief that anyone can think that we will resolve issues through violence, and what he was part of surely was not self-defense -- there is something tragic about his life. He was 99% sure that what he did was part of being a soldier. I am convinced, however, that the knowledge that his action killed little children did sink in on him. He would not have opened his mouth to tell on those who were involved, but he also would not have been as resigned to his own death but for the knowledge that he killed children.

In the end, we will not reach higher ground by using violent tactics. McVeigh's stupidity is almost bibical in showing that violence begets violence. It's a shame that our culture is not able to access the true potential of a kid like Tim McVeigh.... or that we lose "nameless" groups of itty-bitty children to the destructive rages of adults.

to read books?

I grew up reading a lot. The habit continues. I try to read at least 150 books a year, on top of re-reading a good many more. While I enjoy conversing with human beings in the flesh, on the phone, or by the computer ...... books allow me to converse with the greatest minds of recorded history, one on one. And so I have books in in 12 rooms in my house .... allowing me to read quite often. (smile)

associated with my 2 major vocations - much more peaceful life than
what we are doing here which is seriously giving me palpitations.

There are those who don;t care about what is happening...and then I think it is that there are those of us, idealists, who truly believe
in and have been brought up and believed in the ideology this country represented - past tense.

The research - the posts- the eye opening realizations - are shocking,
truly shocking and overwhelming.


We are modern day Diogenes roaming the streets seeking one honest man: in congress, in media,somewhere.

This cannot be allowed to go on.

What to do?

What to do?

Post #235 on thread 4 by Tellurian puts forward the idea that Wilson was being set up as a traitor who misled Bush into war.

Yet others have suggested that Plame may have discovered something big that implicated the Bush regime and outing her was main objective.

So did the Bush gang need to shut down Plame's investigation and getting Wilson hung out to dry a secondary benefit? But post 4-235 suggests Wilson was the main target. And what "opportunity" was presented to Plame, like "bait on a hook"?

I guess I can't read between the lines very well.

Plame may very well have been privy to very damaging information to the Bush WH...but events hadn't developed enough for her to put forth any information..and too many variables to speculate on her role at this time..

If you focus on what is happening now and pretend Joe Wilson never disputed Bush 16 words in the SOTU Address, you'll be in the right place. And technically, that is what Bush is doing right now for damage control. Pretend Wilson never said a thing in conflict with the SOTU Address. Because they are going forward with their original plan to hang Ambassador Wilson out to dry, blaming him as a traitor to his country. And the primary lynch pin to the preemptive strike on Iraq!

In order to find a provable motive necessary for Wilson's defense, the time line has to rotate backwards. We have to know who contacted Wilson to suggest he go to Niger. That is the starting point, imo, and work backwards from there. I haven't seen a name mentioned anywhere as contacting Wilson, just an administration official. If someone can provide that bit of information...whoa!

I don't see a Constitutional crisis looming in the distance, but I do see a Rosenburg case scenario developing, as you suggested...

I agree, the somewhat conflicting prospectives put out by the WP are odd. It seems to me they are floating a broad spectrum analysis to:

....expand the playing field, now that Bush has a private attorney on the payroll. Attorneys like to focus a case within time-lines. So, that is what the WP job is right now. Broadening the playing field to give Bush and his team of attorneys wiggle room.

....ramping up the accusations against Wilson and Val and creating an aura of uncertainty surrounding their credibility..

I hope Joe is on this right away. The Bush defense team have had several weeks to weave a web of defense. Joe needs to get ahead of the curve and counter their attack points right away...or, hope for another fireball to hit with another scandal to buy some time.

Tellurian, you've got something here. Fascinating.

Dick Cheney can't sell nukes as CEO of Halliburton, so he becomes President of the USA and goes buck wild.

Yep. Dick Cheney is the big ticket item. He is the guy who sent Wilson. Why did he send Wilson has always been an unasked question...he had to know Wilson would not be able to confirm.

Dick doesn't make mistakes like that. So maybe it wasn't a mistake.

Your assessment is 100% dead on balls accurate!
(quote from: 'My Cousin Vinny'..)