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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 06:49 AM
Original message
Plame indictments.....Thread 4
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. First!
Ha, ha!
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Look at you, so smug in your finery...
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
143. Plame Indictments threads: downloadable MSWord Documents
Easier to download--especially if you're on dialup--and faster to read off your hard drive or print out.


http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/plame-indictments01.... 05-Jul-2004 14:29 433k
http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/plame-indictments02.... 06-Jul-2004 18:11 516k
http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/plame-indictments03.... 08-Jul-2004 23:48 286k
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #143
145. BEAM - you're a genius - -all 3 threads here - wow !
:hopping:
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #145
163. You're welcome. Everyone should read these threads.
As someone mentioned, they should be published.

WHEN I HAVE THE TIME -- which may take a few days -- I'll re-do them to correct all the links contained in the threads. Currently many of them are truncated due to copy and paste from the original thread text. One has to go back and re-copy each truncated link individually. Very time consuming.

BMU
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #143
165. This is great! Thanks soooo much!
Now I can actually read it alllll.........

:hi: :toast: :hi:

Kanary
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #143
178. great!
Required reading .... or at least it should be!
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #178
197. H20 - where have you been! we've missed your input - am I
correct in assuming that we have recently seen you on a certain
news show?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #197
199. America's Favorite
Homely Videos? Or re-runs of Green Acres?
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juslikagrzly Donating Member (646 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #143
190. Beam_me_up, Sorry
to put this here, but I don't have enough posts to private message.

I downloaded these files for easier reading and also to pass on to others, but the format is weird and I only have the titles of each post, not the substance. Any ideas?

Thanks for doing this, btw. Thanks to all for the great reading, although it's so depressing.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #190
202. Have other people had this problem? Please post if so.
No one has mentioned having a problem before.

The documents are about a hundred pages long, each. Make sure when you click on the link you "save target as" to down load to your hard drive. They were created using a Macintosh, MSWord 2001, and should be compatible with Windows machines. Sorry, I don't have the answer to your question -- perhaps someone else can suggest a way to help.

BMU
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juslikagrzly Donating Member (646 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #202
217. Thanks for the reply beam,
I'm on a MAC also, and they downloaded automatically when I clicked, but when I open them in MS Office X, it's the list of subjects in blue and underlined, but not the actual message. I'm not computer literate enough to know what to do. But....I appreciate the amount of effort you must have put into this. Thanks.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #217
220. I appreciate your effort too...Beam Me Up...
My Mac has a load limit. If the threads were limited to 150 posts, I think MSO could accept it..anything over that is too much of a drag. scrolling takes forever..
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #220
221. I'm not sure I understand --do you need me to break up the MSWord docs?
I can do that. Let me know.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #221
234. Thanks, B_M_U...
I'm ok...
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juslikagrzly Donating Member (646 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #202
219. Beam, I figured it out, and I'm just computer stupid. Thanks again, eom
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #202
223. I have a Mac and Appleworks
and they loaded fine. One was a 163 pages. DUers are a wordy bunch!
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. Hey Lestatdelc - thanks for your post on 225 - thread 3
It was a wonderful summary and very information. Welcome to DU. :hi:
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
32. I replied to Lestatdelc
last night, I hope it didn't fall throught the cracks. It is a good post and I welcome him again!
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. I think your response was the last thing posted before the
thread was locked. I too hope Lestatdelc continues to post in this new thread.
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Lestatdelc Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
130. Thanks
Thanks for the welcome and the compliment.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #130
133. You are welcome - I love the minds on this forum.
You have made yourself right at home and I am glad.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
4. Why Attack Iraq? Repost of Lestatdelc 's post from #3 : Great Read!
Edited on Thu Jul-08-04 10:54 AM by KoKo01
Lestatdelc (12 posts) Thu Jul-08-04 04:06 AM
Response to Original message
225. NEW here



In the first archive of this thread H20 posed the question... why Plame... why the rush for Iraq... those are related and it is via WMD, but Iraq was not invaded BECAUSE of WMDs, it was because of a LACK of WMD

Why?

Because of three things:

1) Iraq being cleared of WMD by the UNMOVIC/UNSCOM meant Desert Storm (when Saddam went off the reservation) was over and sanctions had to be lifted.

2) Iraq had European contracts for their oil.

3) Iraq was going to trade the oil in Euros not petrodollars.

Remember, Bush/Saud are the same thing. BDM/Vinnel (Carlyle at the time) arm, train, equip man what keeps Saud in power. Saudi crude funds the whole Bush/Saud crew. Iraq suddenly free again to sell its oil, and in Euros not only screws Bush/Saud, but would cripple the US economy along multiple fracture lines.

First and obviously, having the 2nd largest oil reserve of accessible crude come onto the market will drive the value of Saudi crude into the basement. That Iraq would end run the rest of OPEC to make up for a decade of being starved would scatter the cartel members into the winds to fend for themselves. So what is better, to let Iraq crude take out your own operation at the knees or take it over and roll it into the same portfolio.

Second, because Iraq was gonna devalue your own assets in the first place, doing so outside our traditional partner firms and with European (French, Russian, German) firms visions of Chinnese orders means you are not getting a swing at that crude even in the rest of the chain.

Third, and most critical (and actually more "forgivable" in a strange circumpolar way) is that trading in Euros not petrodollars collapse our capital market funding of our debt and deficits, both Governmental budget and general economic. If China (as its demand for oil goes through the roof in the next 10 years) starts trading with Iraq, and the Euro becomes the currency for oil (not to mention it is already on the edge of surpassing the dollar for capital markets anyway base don value as it is) suddenly China has no need to continue to buy our debt. It would get more of a return in Euros, plus it buys oil form Iraq in Euros, etc. etc.

The chasing after buyers for our currency to fund our deficits (trade and monetary) would mean radically raising interest rates to keep people buying it. Their goes most of our economy as the ripple of interest rates would throw us into a recession/depression. And their would be an even WORSE problem/risk then facing us as well.

If China and the capital markets STOP buying our debt, our economy falls into an economic black hole and could only emerge when China (the rest of the developing world) and the US are on economic parity. That is THE abyss for America.

China can do without the American market as it has a ready built market 5 times as large as the North American continent within its own borders. And because of outsourcing and production off-shoring of the past decade and a half (and heading into the next half) it has the manufacturing base to feed their domestic market whether those factories turn out Nikes for US consumption to "whatever" name to the domestic market.

Controlling the oil has been the underpinning of our ENTIRE core foreign policy since the end of WWII.

This is why we installed the Shah in 53, this is why the CIA kept the Ba'athists from going to far into Soviet procurement arms (by our kicking Saddam back into the Iraq after his first coup attempt in the 50s) even though the Ba'athists where a "nationalist" (read socialist) movement, why we have propped up Saudi Arabia from the moment the guns fell silent on WWII. This was for two (at the time coequal which became singular) reasons. keep it out of the Soviet hands, and keep it in "our" big oil hands.

OPEC in the early 70s was testing the price limit to find the outer edge.

But "our" number one client/puppet was the Shah. We sold him F-14s, something we would not even sell to our NATO allies. He had SAVK, which made Saddam's secret police seem like Haight-Ashbury. He was, like Saddam, secular which was not the case with Saud, which was religious extremists who the British put in place to take out the Turks in WWI.

So when the population got feed up, it turned to religion (since the Shah was a corrupt western secular puppet) and revolution. Students start the revolution, and the Ayatollah becomes the rallying figure. The Shah falls, flees... we (now the "Great Satan") throw our lot in with Saddam to hold the line. We sell him WMDs, intel, attack gun-ships (American made) to set-up a back-burn to stop the Islamic Revoltuon wildfire that is now burning towards the oil fields, having already lost a vast supply to the now radicalized Iranian Revolutionary Council.

Just after the USSR collapses, Saddam goes off the reservation by the sucker move that we had no position in his long-standing quest to get at Kuwaiti oil fields, stop their lateral drilling and gain port access that wasn't spitting distance from the Iranians he had been engaging in an 8 year, 1 million+ dead war with.

This is used as pretext to scare the shit out of the Saudi's with doctored intel that Saddam is amassing Republican Guards to move into Saudi Arabia, and we start building bases, and moving in 500k+ troops, and making permanent installations. All this whole time (and decades prior) been training, arming and equipping the Saudi Secret police and internal security forces as Saudi unemployment rises to 30% (remember in the US 25% was called the Great Depression).

We build Desert Shield, then execute Desert Storm, and take out the Iraqi military with a robust 3rd generation military vs. a depleted 2nd generation military, but Bush Sr. doesn't pull the trigger then on Saddam, because we are not sure of his WMD capability. We risk the entire shooting match if we turn the wrong way in the Euphrates river valley.

So we cut a deal to not go for the decapitation then and there. We impose the no-flys, insist on WMD removal through the UN, and hint that if the Iraqi's overthrew Saddam we wouldn't feel bad about Saddam going... but then... the unthinkable happened.

Bush with a 71% approval rating in less than a year loses the election and Bill Clinton and the Democrats suddenly have the keys to the White House, the first time in 12 years and first time since OPEC was brought into the fold after Carter's undoing.

Now do you see why Clinton was hunted...?

Now does trooper-gate, travel-gate, bimbo-gate, Vince Fosters murder-gate, Ron Brown murder-gate and a fucking blue dress make sense...?
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Crachet2004 Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. This is the big picture, in a nutshell...This is the BIG money game.
This is why we are'nt leaving Iraq. Our military (from there) can lash out at the other oil producers, should they begin accepting euros for their oil, instead of dollars. Saddam went to the Euro in Nov. of 2000, I think...which sealed his fate. And that is the game, as detailed in the post I am replying to. Everyone needs dollars for their forex accounts to buy oil...and EVERYONE has to buy oil.

The only thing I might add, is I wonder if much the same isn't true of Japan and some of the other US client nations-Taiwan, South Korea. They are major consumers of dollars, and if they only accept dollars in trade, then to buy Japanese say, if you are Brazil, you would need dollars, further fueling demand for dollars. Our current Sec. of Commerce (the weasel, Don Evans) said that China represented enormous potential for monetary expansion...or something to that effect. I think this is what he meant. And of course, we have an enormous stick, seven carriers, in China's face too. All the extra oil everyone is talking about China needing, is going to be paid for by China, in dollars, or China gets no oil...see?

An example of how having the Dollar for worldwide forex benefits the US: think of the enormous trade BETWEEN Japan, China and South Korea, exclusive of the US. What if it is all done in dollars? Those dollars are off the market, as far as the US is concerned, meaning we have printed free money. They have no inflationary impact in this country. If other nations dump dollars for Euros, what happens? Inflation, like now. Some nations ARE dumping.

The Dollar/Euro conflict is the real war going on right now, the one John Kerry will need to resolve upon becoming President.

No matter which party is in power in the US, they will do whatever is necessary to keep the dollar supreme. The alternative is an economic Apocalypse for this country, and much of the rest of the world.

Russia is the key.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
58. Great Summary Crachet. Too late, the dollar is no longer supeme- Euro
Edited on Thu Jul-08-04 05:13 PM by Pallas180
better value. REmember Warren Buffett saying for the first time in
his life he was betting against America and buying Euros. And when
Warren Buffett speaks......

Also the Sauds are screwing their old friends the dimson family - not really, the dimson family I'm sure is invested in Euros protecting their assetts, they would have switched over....ITS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND THIS COUNTRY THAT ARE SCREWED. he Sauds have announced they
are building oil refinery in China...meaning they're going to ship crude to China to be refined. Deal with them directly and of course so
will the Multinationals, chevron, unocal, etc etc.....pluck America, right?

Ok, you financial wizards. Will China pay Sauds and multinationals in
US dollars or in Euros? and how will that affect us.

I gather if they pay in US dollars and the Sauds are still friends with us they'll be happy to take the dollars. If they're not friends with us can they call in the note, like a betting or loan thing, and
demand we exchange the US dollars for Gold???

how is this going to work?
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Crachet2004 Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #58
72. Well... It isn't that it's too late, but it IS ongoing.
I think part of why they hate Clinton so badly, was that he is an Internationalist. While he was President, we witnessed the cementing of the European alliance-a potential adversary, in some peoples eyes-and worse, the advent of the Euro.

Again, what underpins (I am not saying 'backs'), but what has made the dollar valuable since Nixon took us off the gold standard, is that you can buy oil with it. And you could'nt buy oil without it. Everyone needs oil, it is always one of the largest items of forex...so most nations simply use dollars for all forex.

Except that now, the Russians are selling the EU oil for Euros...remember the French and Germans hurrying to Moscow as our army advanced through Iraq? Historically, Europeans always turn to Russia when they feel threatened...a Russian Czar liberated Paris from Napolean the first time he was defeated-rode at the head of an allied army. Of course, Russia has never been given a prominent place in histories published in America. Today, Russia is still plenty strong enough to stand against us...and they did. The French and German furor over our invasion was'nt because they are nice guys...they had oil contracts to develope fields, and all payments were being made in Euros.

Now, we have an American Army in the middle of the oil fields. Saudi Arabia is being destabilized...now I wonder who is behind all that? Is it really possible American Intelligence supports guerrila (terrorist) groups? Have we ever worked with Ben Laden before? Who flew right after 911? We know they do! The bulk of Saudi oil is in the East of the country, not that difficult to occupy, from Iraq. War is being trumped up against Iran. Should Iran go to the Euro, we (or the Israeli's) will start a war with them. We will win. The world will continue to pay for it's oil in dollars.

Here is something I think most people lose track of: Texans DON'T CARE what the price of oil is. We still pump almost half our own needs, and don't ship it nearly as far. Texans LIKE high oil prices. But. All the oil, except what Russia sells the EU, is going to continue to be paid for in dollars. Or this country will be beat on the battlefield...one of the two. Or. Kerry cuts a deal with the Europeans, and a dual 'trading band', a linkage will be set up, between, say the dollar, euro, and sterling. This is what I want...no war that way.

Or. The Malaysians are setting up a gold dinar, backed by gold, for trade between 51 Islamic nations. If the fiat currencies, EU and dollar, do not come to agreement, this dinar, which China is said to be interested in, may gain favor.

Like some have said, it may be a war on Terra. But that trading thing you mentioned, or whatever, between China and Saudi...no way. Look down at Venezuela...commodity exchanges like that, thereby avoiding the dollar, are why Chavez is in so much trouble.

H20 is correct in saying "follow the money", but the big money is the national debt we owe, which nobody else can do, because nobody else (until the Euro), has their currency tied up in everyone else's forex. Come the day those dollars are exchanged for Euros, and hit the market, we have had it. Needs to be done slowly, in agreement with the EU, to lessen damage to the world economy.

Like I said, Russia is the key. That was Bushes BIGGEST foreign policy blunder. Putin offered him longterm contracts for oil at twenty bucks a barrel, and Bush turned it down, said the Russian oil is too heavy. The Europeans took it.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #72
105. Crachet..Most have switched to Euro already.No? Economics
not my forte'

My understanding also is that the Saudi's have trillions invested in our markets and if they pull it out, we go bust.

With the friends dimson has made, those countries have no reason to
support him by sticking to the dollar. They have the power now. And
there is no reason for them to exchange dollars slowly if they really want to hurt Bush and Carlyle and the cabal, both personally and professionally. If the countries have all mostly switched to Euro
there's not much time before they cash in and pluck America and dimson. If that would be the only way to get rid of dimson they might do that. UNLESS Kerry-Edwards get in. Europe might be more willing to deal with more reasonable American leaders.

On the other hand, since dimson has robbed the treasury and returned
most of it to the corporations, mostly large, and parked the rest of
it, he won't care if the country goes bankrupt which it is.

Print more dollars and pay the national debt with devalued dollars.

AHA! Bush turned down Russia's $20 a barrell longterm contracts. That
must be the key to why the "powers" have gotten turned off him and
want to see him gone.

We're in big doo-doo.
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Crachet2004 Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #105
116. They have'nt mostly switched...
If they had, we would have truly enormous inflation. Some have, so we have SOME inflation. Saudi had diversified, but once the US army parked on their doorstep, they went back to strictly dollars.

No, while our military is right in the middle of the oilfields, and with a powerful Israeli ally close by, and of course, we still have England with us...whether the English people want it or not...no, the major currency on this planet will remain the dollar. To buy oil, you will need dollars, to trade with America's asian clients, some of them economic powerhouses in their own right (Japan has long been number two), you will need dollars. And of course, to trade with the US, you will need dollars.

Some nations are diversifying, but few are as powerful as Russia, who may spit in our eye, as Putin has, and in combination with Russia, the EU. China however, has seven carriers off the coast. China has diversified to a certain extent, but should they forgo the dollar, how hard do you think it would be (behind the scenes) for us to tell Taiwan to declare independence? China has painted themselves into a corner on this. It would mean war. And we would 'have to' defend Taiwan.

And the administration has made it clear the war on terror may involve our crushing 50 or more nations.

I guess it really depends on whether you believe the war on terror is real, or simply an excuse to attack anyone we want to. We also claim the right to invade 'some' nations-like Iraq-over WMD...and Iraq did'nt even have any. But Iraq had just gone to the Euro...and North Korea has, and Iran was threatening, at the time Bush made his Axis of Evil speech. Iran still IS threatening, if they have'nt diversified or divested already.

These are'nt my ideas, by the way, and as I said, Lestatdelc did a better job than I ever could in explaining things...the English used to call it 'The Great Game'. and they are right in the middle of it, to this day, irregardless of what their people may want. If Blair loses, the Tories will win, and the game will continue; just as it will if John Kerry wins on our side of the water.

Much of what has been posted here, is more like organized crime...Bush is definitely out of control, and has certainly made a botch of things, and will be removed in November, if not sooner. I am talking about the game of nations...sums of money so large, they represent, not personal gain, but power and control. America's control, and the mechanism whereby we bring it about. Bushco are agents...the gang that could'nt shoot straight. He must go, before the American People demand we bring the troops home, such a mess has he made of things. He is toast, and Kerry will not pull the troops out. We all know long term bases are being built in the desert. It is not tinfoil, simply the facts.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #116
128. Crachet, what do you mean China has 7 carriers - out where?
Edited on Thu Jul-08-04 11:21 PM by Pallas180
and England wants to convert to the Euro too, because England wants
to be together with the European Union.

The administration has made it clear they may crush 50 nations?
that would be funny, if I didn't know they were so nuts.

We don't have enough army to crush a country the size of Rhode Island.

We can bomb them into oblivion but not take them over.

We huffed and puffed and the world sees we're bushco nutty phonies.

I think we're in for an "economic war" and we are not going to be the winners.

This is the decline of Rome. I think it is between China and India as
to who will be the next powers, even though OBL thinks Islam should be. Not gonna happen.

And under the circumstances with 5? billion people in China, I don't think that Taiwan is anything for us to make a deal with.

As a matter of fact, I think China is going to watch the mess being made in Afghanistan and Iraq....wait a while...and at the appropriate
moment, for them, march down out of their borders and take over.

We could end up at war with China yet in the Middle East.

Crachet, where are their, China's, carriers positioned? What kind of
carriers and what are they doig there?

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Crachet2004 Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #128
156. I was speaking of OUR carriers, off China's coast, this summer...
I thought you would be aware of 'Summer Pulse 04'?

On another note, Dick Cheney repeatedly has said the war on terror will be 'multigenerational' and involve as targets, at least 50 nations. We don't have to occupy them to control them...except in the case of those regions that contain heavy concentrations of oil, like eastern Saudi Arabia.

As to an oncoming 'economic war', I think it is ongoing now, and has been since the introduction of the Euro. The next developement is also ongoing, the introduction by Malaysia of the Islamic gold-backed Dinar, for internal trade between the fifty-odd Islamic nations. It will be interesting to see, how the Dollar and Euro, both 'fiat' or floating currencies, compete against this new, hard currency. China is said to be extremely interested in this new developement.

Anyhow, control of the oil in all this is key. If we are successful in our efforts to control this physical resource, you will see the Euro begin to fall against the dollar-becoming, over time, no more important than the yen or the yuan are today. A regional currency, IMHO.

And with regards to your reference to Rome...I would say this is more like we have left the Republic phase, and entered the Empire phase. Concentrations of wealth in individual hands have reached critical mass in this country (and around the world), and now allow actual control. Politics in this country can best be characterized as a struggle between various elites within the ruling oligarchy.

As to England...England is torn. They are in the EU, but have yet to adopt the Euro...as is the case with Norway and Sweden. Will England submerge themselves completely in the continent? I do not know, but if history is any guide, I suspect not. The location of their troops in Iraq speaks volumes, with regards to this.
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Petrodollar Warfare Donating Member (628 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #156
158. Update on "petroeuro" developments & economic warfare...
Edited on Fri Jul-09-04 08:29 AM by GoreN4
<<first posted in the ECON section, but seems warranted to include here. I disagree that the euro will be a regional currency, as it is already the 2nd most widely held hard currency in the central banks of the world. Heck, in 2003 even our Canadian neighbors reduced their dollar holding from 75% to 55%, (sold gold) and used that $ to increase euro holdings to about 35% of their total reserves. See below for an interesting development in Iran...>>>

Well, this was an interesting find. For those who have followed my Iraq war/dollar/euro/oil/OPEC essay, here's a quick note. The US dollar, despite serious structual imbalances, is able to keep its hegemonic/supremacy role in large part because all 3 international traded exchange markets use "crude oil markers" denominated in US dollars.

The 3 oil pricing markers are: West Texas Crude Intermediate (WTI - traded on the New York Mercantile Exchange, or NYMEX), Norway's Brent Crude (traded on London's International Petroleum Exchange, or IPE), and Dubai's crude oil marker (used to price oil fot the Asian markets). The last marker is the one with problems: "Dubai and Oman pricing is based more on the physical trades of Dubai and Oman but due to falling production levels questions are being raised about the appropriateness of Dubai as a marker crude."

So, according to the below article, Iran is setting up its own international oil exchange market in 2005. Given that Iran already accepts euros for their oil exports, has no trade relationship with the US (since 1979, they can not acquire US dollars through direct trade relationships with the US) - I would assume that any such new crude oil exchagne market will be euro-based given Iran's transfer 2 years ago to the euro as their central banks's primary reserve currency...(along with last year's request that ACU/ASEAN countries pay their oil bill in euros, not dollars...)

In essence, setting up a euro-based pricing mechanism/international exchange market would remove one - if not *the* - main "techincal obstacle" that some members of OPEC have suggested is one of reasons why a "petroeuro" arrangement is difficult to implement. I should also note that since mid-2003 Iran's oil sales to the EU (such as Italy) have been priced in dollars, but the payments have been invoiced in *euros,* making the transactions a bit more complex than if oil prices were also denominated in euros. It seems Iran is trying to remove that final "technical obstacle"...something that some other OPEC members want, but may be too afraid to state publically for fear of covert or overt "regime change"...(please see "Venezuela coup attempt April 2002" - courtesy of when your foreign minister Mieres-Lopez in 2001 suggests that going to a petroeuro system may reduce your currency risks...)

As an aside, in my essay, I suggested that Russia *could* ultimately create a 4th oil crude marker denominated in the euro currency, but this move by Iran makes more sense given they have larger oil reserves, and will not suffer economically from cutting their ties to the dollar (Iran has *no* ties to the dollar, and was losing money on the devalued dollar relative to the euro).

Moreover, as of May 2004 the EU enlarged to 22 nations and will now import the majority of OPEC oil exports (about 60% according to OPEC), and again according to OPEC, about 45% of Middle Eastern trade comes from the EU zone (circa 2002) - so from a purely monetary, trade, and economic perspective - this makes sense for Iran. Will this new exchange market work? Only time will tell...but I have long suspected something like this could occur.

Well folks, I would keep an eye on this Iranian development, and please note the final sentence in this thread...can anyone say "regime change" for Iran if the neocons stay in power after November? Good, I knew you could. It won't be "shock and awe" due to Iran's robust military capability and strategic position in the Gulf, but perhaps a deja vu' covert operation - circa 1953? Such an attempt would be a profound mistake, but obviously the neocons have no appreciation for history...only bizarre dreams of global empire.

Me thinks we are witnessing the slow but imminent end of US dollar hegemony...just as I predicted 1.5 years ago in my pre-war essay on Iraq re the underlying macroeconoimoic and geostrategic forces (ie. emergence of a "petroeuro" in Iraq and the imminent arrival of global Peak Oil b/t 2007-2010). Well, I would like to take this moment and personally thank George W. Bush and all his neocon Imperialist friends, as you and your fascist manifesto, the 'Project for a New American Century' have united the world against the us(!) More specifically, you and the unilateral warmongering neocons have exascerbated what should have been a gradual movement away from the dollar towards the euro - to an increasingly likely abandonment of the dollar standard due to current geopolitcal tensions over Iraq, thanks George(!)

We live in interesting times...

*********

'Iran takes on west's control of oil trading'

Terry Macalister
Wednesday June 16, 2004
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,3604,1239644 ...

"Iran is to launch an oil trading market for Middle East and Opec producers that could threaten the supremacy of London's International Petroleum Exchange.

A contract to design and establish a new platform for crude, natural gas and petrochemical trades is expected to be signed with an international consortium within days.

Top oil producing countries are determined to seize more control of trading after being advised that existing markets such as the IPE and Nymex in New York are not working in their favour."

<<snippet of a REAL understatement..>>>

"Some industry experts have warned the Iranians and other Opec producers that western exchanges are controlled by big financial and oil corporations, which have a vested interest in market volatility."
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Crachet2004 Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #158
160. Thanks for the info...I was unaware of the Iranian plan to set up...
An independent exchange. But you quite rightly allude to the potential for 'regime change', as a result. No doubt, this explains the accelerating accusations with regards to Iran's possesion of nuclear weapons, prepratory to military strikes, or invasion...destabilization has been ongoing, IMO. The problem is, Iran may very well actually already posess such means of defense, which would complicate things enormously. Interesting.

That other nations are finally realizing the current monetary regime and resouce exchanges work against them is a given, I think. But that is where military power enters the equation.

With regards to military power, I see Russia as being the only Power strong enough to spit in our eye; as well as being resource-rich enough in their own right, to have occasion to do so. And they have done so. Perhaps they will support the Iranian exchange. Again, interesting.

As I posted earlier, I believe Russia is the key. George Bush was a fool to turn his back on Putin. Any effort to supplant Anglo/American domination of world markets and commerce must have a military dimension, or they are toothless, and doomed to failure. Only Russia can credibly supply this. Perhaps the EU will some day represent a credible counterbalance to US military power, but national memories seem to be intervening over there, and are slowing this effort today.

We do indeed live in interesting times, and they have become even more interesting with the advent of the internet-again, thanks for your insights.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #158
196. MUST READS THE ABOVE Goren4 & Cratchett
meanwhile,confirms my understanding of what is happening Euro v
Dollar

Thanks Goren4 for filling in the details supporting the conclusion
I came to as another reason why we invaded Iraq (trading in Euro) and
meant as a threat to the rest of the region.

This Dinar for all Islamic countries is going to be a very interesting development.

Cratchett, Prince Bandar was on one of the shows, immediately after the premier of Fahrenheit doing pr work, but let it slip they are
building refinery in China.

Now that was probably a message to the powers that be and dimson and
the multi-nationals rather than for general populace consumption.
But that's what he said. So drop that into the economic formula.

I especially liked this line" "Some industry experts have warned the Iranians and other Opec producers that western exchanges are controlled by big financial and oil corporations, which have a vested interest in market volatility"

heh - just whose behalf do they think the American Army is sitting in
the middle of the ME for?

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daria_g Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #58
136. Thread 3
Hi - I posted on the other thread a summary of stuff from the DEA Watch site.. http://members.aol.com/deawatch/daily.htm

Afraid I didn't see your reply 'til after the thread was locked and I don't have enough posts to send messages. I can't vouch for the reliability of DEA Watch, someone at the Daily Kos (ben masel) who follows drug policy referred to it recently and I checked it out. It is pretty new to me, so you have to use your own judgement.

A recent posting (July 7) from that site (check out the last paragraph!):
>>>Bush and Cheney thought that they could use the vices and ambitions of others to make the Bush-Cheney Family empires richer. But Bush's flattery of Ariel Sharon failed to get Sharon to make the ME less of a thorn in Bush's side. It wasn't Bush who was using Sharon. It was Sharon who was using Bush.

TONY BLAIR: Mr. B. was caught between a rock and a hard place. During his first one-on-one conversation with George Bush, Mr. B. realized right off the bat that he was dealing with a Neanderthal mentality driven by greed to control Saddam's vast oil fields for the Bush Oil Empire. Mr. B. knew that Bush would invade Iraq with or without Great Britain so Mr. B. had to tag along. Britain could not survive against is ancestral enemies, France and Germany, without U.S. backup. Mr. B. will be glad to see Bush defeated in November.

MOHAMMAR KHADAFI: Mo did what Saddam was too arrogant to do: Sing and dance George Bush's song long enough to take the pressure off and avoid being invaded. Unlike Saddam, Mo was never a CIA employee working for Bush Sr. Saddam was foolish. He thought that the knowledge of his past CIA and Bush Family dealings would frighten Bush Jr from invading. But Saddam made the big mistake of not telling the world the backstory... and the mistake of realizing that Jr is completely mad. Backstory's fail to protect you if you never make them Frontstory's.>>>
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #136
171. Welcome to Du, daria_g!
Keep on trucking, er posting!
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. Thanks, koko for reposting Lestatdelc's summary..
very well written and most informative.

Especially the ending...

"Bush with a 71% approval rating in less than a year loses the election and Bill Clinton and the Democrats suddenly have the keys to the White House, the first time in 12 years and first time since OPEC was brought into the fold after Carter's undoing.

Now do you see why Clinton was hunted...?

Now does trooper-gate, travel-gate, bimbo-gate, Vince Fosters murder-gate, Ron Brown murder-gate and a fucking blue dress make sense...?"

I did have to <chuckle> out loud knowing the anger befalling BushI, when after all his work in positioning himself for tomorrow, Bill snatched the keys to the kingdom right out from under his nose, as cool as the magician snatching the tablecloth off the table without moving the dishes..

Methinks we are there again..Kerry's surging popularity especially after yesterday's addition of Edwards as VP doesn't bode well for Bush to recoup any traction at all to get himself elected in Nov.

The only recourse left for Bush as a guaranteed remedy to remain in control IS Martial Law. I have no doubt he will play that card without hesitation...as soon as he has positioned himself and whatever is left of his faithful flock in a safe and secure location.

HELP!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #27
86. If any of you go over to LBN and Ozy's Market Watch Column, which is
posted every day...that's where we get into all this stuff. That post that Ozy does every day and contributed to by DU'er "54aNickle," "UpInArms" and "Maeve," and others here is worth looking at for the "Finance Angle" of what we are living through..

I know most don't have the time but there have been good posts about the
GLOBAL ECONOMY and how this fits it. Euro-dollars compared to the Gold Standard? All of it...

So, this was a great post to add to the discussion...Thanks! :-)'s I figured it was a good one to start off with...about Iraq Oil/Euro and Blair and Germany and France. We gotta look at how all the "BIG GLOBAL MONEY" fits into the picture to really see how it all works against US (the little people) in the end.. and why they fight their wars..the "GLOBALISTS." :-(
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
55. Excellent Excellent, LEST =have said it before but not as well as
you have!!
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
228. EXCELLENT.......But your forgetting a few things
Edited on Sat Jul-10-04 01:43 AM by serryjw
1) It is now estimated that we have about 8 years left before the world's oil crisis kicks into high gear. It may very well take that same 8 years to get peace in Iraq and the needed oil.Some are saying that Arabia may have already 'peaked' at which point the crisis may come earlier.

2)Now add to it that it is believed that Arabia funded the nuke program in Pakistan. They have tried to assassinate Musharraf twice. It will take about a nano second for Hezbelloh to walk into join their friends in Pakistan....OUR FRIENDS!

3)Now add to this King Fahd is dying. The two sons are fighting for the kingdom. If their is a civil war in Arabia 25% of the world's oil could very well be in jeopardy.

America is on a power grab for all the remaining world's oil( and natural gas) out entire economy depends on it.

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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. If the rule is follow the money -- where does the money *go*?
It's obvious that much of what is what has been discussed on these threads involves the movement of huge sums of money around the world. The sources of that money are also clear, at least in outline -- the main ones being oil, arms sales, and illicit drugs. And the mechanics of money laundering are apparent, from complicit banks to the diamond trade.

But what I've never seen clearly addressed is where all that money goes and what it does when it gets there. If, say, trillions of dollars have been ripped off from the US government, what's become of it all? Clearly, it's not just sitting in vaults somewhere for the Uncle Scrooges of this world to dive through like a porpoise and throw it up and let it hit them on their heads. But what is it being used for? What purpose are these unfathomable sums actually serving?

It goes without saying that the ultimate point must be power. But power for whom? And power to do what? I think we need to start examining the other side of the money equation a lot more closely.

The Reverend Moon might be taken as a representative (if somewhat eccentric) case. Here is someone who has access to large sums of money (probably much of it from dubious sources) and is visibly spending it on things like having the Washington Times run at a consistent loss. In his case, the objective seems to be to buy himself the kingship of the world.

Other wealthy and secretive men are not as transparent in their ambitions. For example, take William Stamps Farish III, Bush family friend and recently-resigned ambassador to Great Britain. One writeup on him says, "Known as one of the richest men in Texas, Will Farish keeps his business affairs under the most intense secrecy. Only the source of his immense wealth is known, not its employment."

And these are just individuals. There are also official and unofficial organizations of various sorts involved in the game. What is the CIA, say, doing with all its off-the-books income? Does it really cost that much to control public opinion and overthrow the occasional government? Does it all just dribble away in fruitless arm-wrestling for dominance? Or is much of the lose cash going into the manipulation of financial markets -- and if so, to what purpose except to produce more money?

There's a puzzle here I can't get my head around. If we were living in one of those science fiction stories where it turns out an entire planet is being exploited for the benefit of some other-dimensional world, even that would make more sense. But I can't see any earthly reason for the transfer of these vast amounts of wealth from us to -- whoever.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Most of the money is going to Halliburton especially and then
Edited on Thu Jul-08-04 02:42 PM by Pallas180
Bechtel, GE, Carlyle -gobs of the money to their munitions companies.
Don't forget Carlyle has under its umbrella 175 known companies. Carlyle which = Daddy and friends and family owns the 10th largest munitions company in the country. Now who do you think is
supplying Us with munitions for Iraq. BTW hard to believe but my understanding is they are now the manufacturers of the Bradley tank,
bought the company.They also have school book publishing company, Nextel cell phone, and trying to get TV station and movie company in
Hollywood.

THAT's the answer to your question. Yes power.The money goes to create the power to shape countries and make the people compliant. Power to form opinion. Power to miseducate and misinform. It used to be called the CIA's black bag operations. But it just came to me. Daddy dimson WAS the CIA. If we look at what he has done with Carlyle,
the major players involved, and what they have done with the money, we
will understand how they have infiltrated all societies and worked at setting that society and the people's opinions in the structure they desire. A brother of Dimson has created a computer program test that all Florida children must take and pass. The result has been in order to pass the test children don;t have the time or teachers the time to teach the normal schedule of history, math, and so on. They must study subjects which are limited to the questions contained in the "test".

Good gawd. The whole thing has just opened up to me. I understand. Forget education. What they are doing is downgrading the talents of the American people starting with the children so that they will be a labor force, service, hamburger flippers rather than scientists, doctors, lawyers. Only the wealthy will once again be able to afford good or special or private schools to get a real education. Making a ruling class. Lower wages for less educated people. Educated scientists rising up from China, India, foreign countries where our jobs and money have gone.

Holy of holies. These people must be stopped.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- -
Halliburton, BEchtel, the munitions and oil companies, energy companies have always been the "shadow governement" where before no one knew exactly who they were.

Now they have come out of the shadows and are running the country , this country in the form of dimson and especially Cheney. Halliburton and the Bush family are connected through marriage. Halliburton name used to be Dresser Industries owned by Herbert Walker. Walker's daughter married Prescott Bush. Dresser changed name to Halliburton.
do the names George Herbert Walker Bush sound familiar?

Guess who's in charge of the wealth of this country?

Do a little googling. You;d be amazed what you can find out. But if
your read all the Plame threads - you'll know all that we know - and more. :) Things are just coming together now by reading Star's and others posts above today.

BTW, I recently heard on cable that that 20,000 strong private and I emphasize private security contractor force owned by Halliburton, among others, was trained with US tax dollars. We are paying them $1000 a day or more while those enlisted in the army are getting what
$400 a month?

I haven't looked into it entirely but thinking it out, 85 billion went to Iraq asked for by the neo-cons . It has been exposed within the last 10 days that only $300 to $400 million has been spent on Iraq .

I am now wondering if we are being billed by Halliburton for their private security force which they are paying $1000 a day...inotherwords at taxpayer expense?

And don't forget, banks are involved. Banks have always been involved.
Bremmer was from a banking firm. Brown - (Harriman) involved with CIA,
and money laundering, Solomon Brothers, Citibank, Riggs, easy to google. Old CIA contacts, members or CEO's on Board of Directors of many investment houses and banks. Just google in CIA names from the past + bank.

Follow the money.

CIA is bank. Bank is CIA, oil company, Bechtel, Lockheed Martin, large corporations, old companies and names, all intertwined in a stranglehold on the wealth of this country and now of the world.




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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. That's not sufficient to explain it
Kerry has raised, what -- $200 million? And that's considered an enormous amount of money. The total spent by all parties in the 2000 presidential campaign was only about $355 million.

But just the amount that missing in official Pentagon audits every year is in the tens of billions. The total assets unaccounted for run over $2 trillion.

Drug trafficking and money laundering figures are even higher. An article from 1998 says, "The trade in illicit drugs is estimated to be worth $400 billion a year, and it accounts for 8% of all international trade, according to the United Nations. . . . In a May 1998 speech, President Clinton declared, 'Up to $500 billion in criminal proceeds every single yearmore than the GNP of most nationsis laundered, disguised as legitimate revenue, and much of it moves across our borders.' As much as $100 billion a year in drug trafficking cash moves through the U.S. financial system, according to the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN)."

The worldwide arms trade is said to be even bigger than the drug trade. And having access to this much money makes it possible to manipulate the financial markets and generate even more questionable profits.

So we're talking about an amount of money sufficient to buy and sell every election in the world a thousand times over. And all this cash is moving around the globe freely and almost uncontrolled. It's like being shown an enormous power plant out in the desert somewhere and asking what it's for and being told that it's to supply the needs of one little nearby town. It just doesn't scale.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. CIA black bags, Saudi swiss accounts and others swiss accounts,
CIA buying private airlines to ship arms and tanks and tankers to
support their wars...their wars? our wars and coups - we just didn't know it.

Your're on to it starroute. Keep going. Whenever a post makes us think and put things together , we get a better understanding and closer to the workings of this mafia government.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #31
88. It's the GLOBAL MONEY...follow it...follow the "Rothchilds" and the rest
of the crew...We are but small players in this...those of us with our 401-K's instead of traditional Pensions. We've been suckered and hoodwinked into thinking that 401-K's are better than traditional Pensions...but NOT!

They use our money with their own to MANIPULATE US!
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Crachet2004 Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #88
157. If you follow the money, you will wind up at the Federal Reserve...
And from there, you will go to the 'House of the Red Shield'...the Rothschilds.

But of course, you will also be ridiculed in an effort to poke holes in your own 'tinfoil' armor.

The subject is complex, and any effort to explain or to explore it, in a paragraph or two, may be doomed to failure. Witness my own effort, on this thread! lol.

But I agree with you-a pension with a COLA is more secure than a 401k...especially if it is guaranteed by the PBGC.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
206. STAR, silly me, of course - Murdoch and his like - guess Blumberg
Edited on Fri Jul-09-04 09:50 PM by Pallas180
in New York wants to be a player, and the New Jersey Senator Corzine
formerly investment banker? who bought the seat with 60$million worth of ads....which is becoming more common....spend large amounts unheard of amounts to get into congress so you can be a player

Gates
Paul Allen
many new competitors for the old guard...no wonder they went after
Bill Gates with suit after suit, to stop his accumulation of billions..

good lord - there are so many now who are billionaires.....all trying to get in the big power poker game.

they want to be in the play...and if they're not in oil and banking,brokerage or investment houses -
communications seems to be the new power company......thus Powell Junior trying to make it easier for the handful to take over more media outlets by changing the laws how many one person or coporation could own.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
230. Congrads...you have arrived!
quote
Good gawd. The whole thing has just opened up to me. I understand. Forget education. What they are doing is downgrading the talents of the American people starting with the children so that they will be a labor force, service, hamburger flippers rather than scientists, doctors, lawyers
end quote

Why do you think that Bushit immigration policy was suggested. MORE uneducated non citizens (they can't vote!) to work for $6/hour.

I'm sure we all agree that American's would overthrow this administration IF they understood. As long as we keep them ill informed with Rush Limbaugh and Karl Rove....we have no chance of a consensus.

American are so worried about ROE and Gay marriage they are not paying attention to anything that is important.
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
126. mostly they sit on it
Don't they?

Making wealth for new generations of aristocrats in addition to power now. No need to fear a sunk economy if you are one of the have and have mores--you weather it and really it furthers your goals of consecrating power by this stratification. You might even desire to see the economy tank on purpose, if your main goal is a sort of subtle class war and it doesn't bother your people (um, scumbags).

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 01:23 PM
Original message
HEY. LINK TO THREAD 3 DOESN'T WORK -can someone help?
thanks
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
6. HEY. LINK TO THREAD 3 DOESN'T WORK -can someone help?
thanks
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. HEY. LINK TO THREAD 3 DOESN'T WORK -can someone help?
thanks
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
8. Want to break it wide open ?
THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO & CAN DO: from yr link above

Edited on Wed Jul-07-04 01:58 PM by Pallas180

TAKING THE BEST paragraphs from the Waxman link below & e mail to Olberman & Dobbs, the only ones on CNN and MSNBC who would broadcast Waxman's stuff.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29810-20 ...

E mail or write something like this to the editor's page of Washington Post, NY Times, LA Times, your local newspaper, DAily News, Salon, You have a favorite site? send it

Dear Sir:

Republican leaders in Congress have refused to investigate who treasonously exposed covert CIA agent Valerie Plame in this administration, whose identity was leaked after her husband, Joe Wilson, challenged the administration's claims that Iraq sought nuclear weapons.

The Republican Chairmen of all committees have held virtually no public hearings on the hundreds of misleading claims made by administration officials about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and ties to al Qaeda.

During the Clinton administration, Congress spent over $70 millions of tax dollars probing alleged White House wrongdoing. There was no accusation too minor to explore, no demand on the administration too intrusive to make.

It is the responsibility of the Fourth estate, the media, to expose the failure of Congress to investigate these "misleading claims" and treasonous action by someone in the governemtn, and to keep this government "honest"through exposure when it won't act responsibly, as the Fourth Estate did thirty years ago during the Nixon abberation.

WHY are you not fulfilling your role to the American people and this country and WHEN will you start ?





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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. To catch newbies up-we are awaiting indictments leading to WH
for the exposure of CIA covert agent Valerie Plame.

Then we started looking at why Cheney and the WH and Rove and Dimson
went after Valerie Plame and exposed her.

We have come to the conclusion the exposure was not really payback to her husband, Joe Wilson former ambassador, who exposed that the letter stating Iraq had nuclear material and had purchased it from Niger was untrue and the letter was forged, which the administration had used in the State of Union and to convince the American people that Iraq had to be pre-emptively invaded.

We think that it is highly possible that because Valerie Plame's spy job was to track illegal WMD, she was getting close to finding out the
administration, or Halliburton, or Cheney was involved in illegal sale
of nuke materials to an enemy country which is against the US Law.

We found that Halliburton under Cheney had already sold nuke material to Libya in 1995 and was fined 1.2 million $. Now sales to Iran and
Syrria may possibly be under investigation

So we wonder if she was about to expose .....what? and was sidelined by the administration to prevent...what?

here's some from thread 3:

Thu Jul-08-04 02:46 AM Response to Reply #222

223. Just came to me, maybe Valerie Plame was the one who caught Cheney in 1995 selling illegal nuclear to Quadafi and has it out for
her ever since. if so she cost his company 1.2 million....and you'd be surprised, the richer you are the cheaper you are and fight for every penny.

Maybe it's as simple as that. ? She's the one who did her job and
reported him?



Snazzy Thu Jul-08-04 05:23 AM Response to Reply #223

229. I keep hearing dif things about what country her focus was
I've read either Saudi or Iraq (but you'd think all the wmd people were on Iraq to some degree). Maybe we don't know (?) or it was broadly wmd proliferation.

Halliburton has problems all over the place, but maybe the most interesting is Iran--in terms of US not wanting another 'Islamic bomb' and Halliburton not giving a shit. That story broke publicly in Feb.:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/oil/story/0,11319,1146372,00 ....

This broke as a Treasury investigation. Money/biz from Halliburton Dubai.

Halliburton's Nigeria problems began closer to Plame/Novakula. But not sure why wmd specialist would be on Nigeria.

But who knows, need more info. Libya, Pakistan, your hot spot here.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _

You can catch up on a lot of this at thread 3 - too good to miss
The many DU'ers posting on this are using a lot of investigative brain power:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...



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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Don't Forget the New Article in the New Republic
Edited on Thu Jul-08-04 02:15 PM by Beetwasher
regarding the US pressuring Pakistan to hand over OBL during the Dem covention. The quid pro quo suggested for this is that US would and HAS laid off investigations into what exactly is going on w/ Pak's nuke programs and it's nuke scientists giving aid to terrorists. Remember, we let them get away w/ pardoning their top nuke guy who gave at the very least info to terrorist supporting country's and members of the "axis of evil".

Pak is afraid that if Kerry is pres. he will go after Pak for WMD dissemination. It's quite possible Plame's work involved Pakistan.

Link:

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040719&s=aaj071904

From the article:

The Bush administration has matched this public and private pressure with enticements and implicit threats. During his March visit to Islamabad, Powell designated Pakistan a major non-nato ally, a status that allows its military to purchase a wider array of U.S. weaponry. Powell pointedly refused to criticize Musharraf for pardoning nuclear physicist A.Q. Khan--who, the previous month, had admitted exporting nuclear secrets to Iran, North Korea, and Libya--declaring Khan's transgressions an "internal" Pakistani issue. In addition, the administration is pushing a five-year, $3 billion aid package for Pakistan through Congress over Democratic concerns about the country's proliferation of nuclear technology and lack of democratic reform.

But Powell conspicuously did not commit the United States to selling F-16s to Pakistan, which it desperately wants in order to tilt the regional balance of power against India. And the Pakistanis fear that, if they don't produce an HVT, they won't get the planes. Equally, they fear that, if they don't deliver, either Bush or a prospective Kerry administration would turn its attention to the apparent role of Pakistan's security establishment in facilitating Khan's illicit proliferation network. One Pakistani general recently in Washington confided in a journalist, "If we don't find these guys by the election, they are going to stick this whole nuclear mess up our asshole."

Pakistani perceptions of U.S. politics reinforce these worries. "In Pakistan, there has been a folk belief that, whenever there's a Republican administration in office, relations with Pakistan have been very good," says Khalid Hasan, a U.S. correspondent for the Lahore-based Daily Times. By contrast, there's also a "folk belief that the Democrats are always pro-India." Recent history has validated those beliefs. The Clinton administration inherited close ties to Pakistan, forged a decade earlier in collaboration against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. But, by the time Clinton left office, the United States had tilted toward India, and Pakistan was under U.S. sanctions for its nuclear activities. All this has given Musharraf reason not just to respond to pressure from Bush, but to feel invested in him--and to worry that Kerry, who called the Khan affair a "disaster," and who has proposed tough new curbs on nuclear proliferation, would adopt an icier line.



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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Someone needs to kick this
and keep it near the top.
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
39. double kick for truth!
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Lestatdelc Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #10
135. Interesting
Edited on Fri Jul-09-04 12:33 AM by Lestatdelc
Remember, Rove and crew ALWAYS like to double-load a move. Make everything a twofer.

I see the Plame outing as being a chance to scuttle the exposure of the false pre-text of WMD in Iraq which they needed as the agreed upon game-plan for taking out Iraq. This is confirmed by NUMEROUS sources that directly state that the WMD was the agreed upon axle turn the entire Iraq move.

But it also was a way to pre-empt (oh that word) upsetting the cooperative work with the ISI not only on the surface level of the "GWOT" but its arms dealing with Bechtel and other BushCo. subsidiaries.

It is absolutely ASTOUNDING to me that we are even dealing with the Pakistani Gov. since the Taliban was a wholly ISI created creature and we know for a fact they have been dealing with illicit WMD trade materials with all the folks we allegedly are in a "GWOT" with.

Cheney's office was inside Langely, and Rummy had his own crew set up at the OSP. All this controlling and steering Langely, and doing an end-run around State for the most part, while Powell is busy with farcical war on drugs offers to the ISI creature the Taliban to stop growing poppies.

This is why no Predators in the air in Pakistan prior to 9/11 once BushCo. was in office. This is why BushCo. girl in Yemen refused John O'Neil back into the country to follow the trail on the Cole bombing. Because it was going to expose BushCo. under the radar dealing with propping up Saud, going the wrong way at tracing to Pakistan and not to Iraq or Iran which they would have loved to have been headed towards.

This is why initially the Cole was being fingered at Hezzbolah and not al-Qaeda, and why John O'Neil was calling bullshit on that line. Then we get hanging chads, the SCOTUS end-run of the Constitution and the now outgoing Clinton administration hands BushCo. a war plan attacking the Taliban, using NA assets to spearhead it, which would have been attacking their own interests with the ISI that BushCo. had and the money trail would have lead to Saudi Arabia and the Saud family who have been funneling money into those groups for decades via Pakistan.

So Hart-Rudman gets shelved, and "operation ignore" goes into full swing.

Then 9/11 happens and the "trifecta" is struck.

That dear in the headlights for 7 minutes was real folks, but it was a chance to make lemonade and shore up their operation and make the big moves that going the internatioanlist and UN route would have prevented.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #135
147. Post 135 " Interesting" by Lestatdelc is a MUST READ
Lesta,

what does GWOT stand for?
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #135
161. Secret Rumsfeld meetings of 9/19-20/01
The Defense Policy Board (DPB) meets in secrecy in Rumsfeld's Pentagon conference room on September 19 and 20 for nineteen hours to discuss the option of taking military action against Iraq. This is reported in detail by the New York Times three weeks later on October 12. {New York Times, 10/12/01} Among those attending the meeting are the 18 members of the Defense Policy Board, Paul Wolfowitz, and Donald Rumsfeld, Ahmed Chalabi, and Bernard Lewis. {New York Times 10/12/01; Vanity Fair, 5/2004, pg 236} Secretary of State Colin Powell and other State Department officials in charge of US policy toward Iraq are not invited and are not informed of the meeting. A source will later tell the New York Times that Powell was irritated about not being briefed on the meeting. {New York Times 10/12/01} During the seminar, two of Richard Perle's invited guests, Princeton professor Bernard Lewis and Ahmed Chalabi, the president of the Iraqi National Congress, are given the opportunity to speak. Lewis says that the US must encourage democratic reformers in the Middle East, such as my friend here, Ahmed Chalbi. Chalabi argues that Iraq is a breeding ground for terrorists and asserts that Saddam's regime has weapons of mass destruction. {Vanity Fair, 5/2004, pg 232} During another part of the meeting, the attendees write a letter to President Bush calling for the removal of Saddam Hussein. {E}ven if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack, any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq. Failure to undertake such an effort will constitute an early and perhaps decisive surrender in the war on international terrorism, the letter reads. The letter is published in The Washington Times on September 20 in the name of The Project for a New American Century (PNAC), a conservative think tank that believes the US needs to shoulder the responsibility for maintaining peace and security in the world by strengthening its global hegemony. {Project for a New American Century, 9/20/01; Manila Times, 7/19/03} They also discuss how to overcome some of the obvious diplomatic and political pressures that will impede a policy of regime change in Iraq. {New York Times 10/12/01} Bush reportedly rejects the proposal, as both Cheney and Powell agree that there is no evidence implicating Saddam Hussein in the attacks. {New York Times 10/12/01 Sources: Unnamed senior administration officials and defense experts}

The link should be http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=com... but that's not coming up. Google cache is http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:hz749LyBXjQJ:www.c...
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
30. The information you posted on Plame is too sketchy to go on as supposition
as fact to continue in this vein..

Rather than running around in circles. Let the facts reveal themselves before we go on..

For now, it is wise to continue to get more face time to keep Plame in the news and get the perps responsible, indicted.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
51. Tell - go read below: Cheney indictments very close...we prolly
have our answer on what Plame was onto and why they went after her.

link to the news report there.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #51
61. Thanks, Pallas...that would be delicious if True...nt
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #30
66. Just Said It's Possible
Keeping Track of Pakistan's proliferation programs however, does sound like something that might have been right up her alley... :shrug:
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #66
74. The post said..."We have come to the conclusion"...
leads the reader to believe after much comprehensive research, with many statements to link to...does more harm than good to theorized without having something concrete to back your play...I'm just sayin!

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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #74
103. Well
Edited on Thu Jul-08-04 08:04 PM by Beetwasher
to tell you the truth, I would hesitate to say ANYTHING on this thread is anything more than educated guesses, so any conclusions would be nothing more than that. Not sure what you're point is. I'm just supplying additional info that may or may not be connected, there's no harm in that whatsoever. Any reader can make of it what they will, as they can do with everything on this thread, or any other for that matter. :shrug:

On edit: I see I made a mistake and that your post was not in reply to my post originally...My mistake and apologies...
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Lestatdelc Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #30
137. Don't forget the hidden piece that TPM is hinting at
Edited on Fri Jul-09-04 12:41 AM by Lestatdelc
Who forged the documents that was the trigger for the Wilson trip, etc....?

Remember... the Niger documents were meant to steer towards Iraq, Plame (and the WH feared Wilson since they knew they were married) might have known real WMD proliferation and al-Qaeda funding issues point to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (those are linked remember).

So who created the forgeries and why?

Why point bogus WMD to Niger?

TPM is hinting that it is the same people (or a trail that leads to the same peopel) who outted her.

Wilson (connected to Plame who is going after the real goods) were a threat to the documents lack of veracity and Plame and Langley we headed after the vipers-nest of ISI created, Saudi/Bush funded Taliban and extremists they have been trying to "buyout" and keep off the Arabian peninsula.

Remember, Saudi Arabia.. Bander himself on ABC admitted they have been buying off Usama for years, while he, like the Iranian radicals and the Ayatollah were waging "asymmetrical" war against the Shah (back it the day) and now the house of Saud in the present.

Saddam was on of two loose loose cannons and went off the reservation, first, and fatally in 91.

THAT is why Iraq.

We couldn't pull the trigger when he did back then because we didn't know the WMD threat he posed then and there. But the aftermath left Saddam an out, come clean on the WMD issue, that Bush/Saud could no longer afford. This is why the Neo-cons pushed so hard under Clinton to shift official policy to be the change of regime in Iraq in 98.

Because of our move into Saudi Arabia, we exacerbated and made explicit our dauphine arrangement with the house of Saud. Just as we did with the Shah, we ended up radicalizing those under the thumb and BDM supplied weapons.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #137
148. "Just as we did with the Shah, we ended up radicalizing "
bingo. the analogy is absolutely correct that everyone has been missing - and by being in Saudi Arabia, we did the same thing.
we disturbed the bee hive and now we've got a whole hive of angry bees
attacking...

Meanwhile, we gave Saddam I believe, or rather Pappy gave Saddam secret spy equipment- some kind of tracking thing - and of course Rumsfeld/Cheney gave him the gas (now they're giving him the pipe to go with it).

What else did we give out. Saudi Arabia has WMD ???

Cheney for sure sold illegally to Syrria and Iran possibly nukular equipment because one of his speeches just before he became veep and while he was still very much CEO of Halliburton was how stupid the rules were prohibiting him from selling to Syrria and Iran.

Oh to get both of then on treason.

It could never happen to pappy, but it could happen to dimson.

Who forged the Niger papers? Someone stupid. Who did not know history, who was not a Nigerian, and who did not know who was in the
government of Niger at the supposed dates they were trying to forge.

Likely a dirty trickster in the WH, a politico, not an intel agent who
would have been careful of stationery and dates.

Hello Segretti? Isn;t that how he ended up in jail - forging on someone else's stationery.

Would Rove be that stupid? ? ? ?

And if Rove it leads directly to dimson, to promote his war.

as the French would say, incredble !
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #148
204. Wilson's book explains why
people thought they could get away with the lie about Niger. The US CI/MI sources in this part of Africa are shallow compared to other areas of the world. There were enough different interests who had had access to Niger that the idea appeared to be that no one would know if Iraq had contacted & tried to purchase the material in question. But that was Wilson's neighborhood... he was known and TRUSTED. Keep in mind that Wilson is an extremely talented individual.

Plame's investigation was separate from what he was doing. Yet while their projects were distinct, there was an over-lap. And that is in large part what the administration was in a PANIC about.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #204
212. Over-lap? Hmmm.
Edited on Fri Jul-09-04 10:53 PM by TacticalPeak
US firm said among nuclear black market

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&e=3...

VIENNA, Austria - An investigation of the black market supplying nations wanting nuclear arms has spread to more than 20 firms - some of them North American - the chief of the U.N. atomic agency told The Associated Press Friday. A senior diplomat identified one of the firms as U.S. based.

Demanding anonymity, the diplomat also said the Syria and Saudi Arabia are also being investigated as possible buyer nations, beyond Iraq (news - web sites), Iran, Libya and North Korea (news - web sites) - the countries known to have been in contact with Pakistani scientist A.Q. Khan and members of his procurement network.


But the diplomat, who is familiar with the Vienna-based IAEA told The AP that beyond suspicions prompting a continuing investigation, "there has been no proof" on Syria and Saudi Arabia that would warrant them being reported to the board of governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency.

snip

The diplomat said at least one of them was in the United States. He declined to elaborate, saying the agency "was not yet at the bottom of that story." But he said what is known about that company sheds new light on the activities of the network, known up to now for primarily supplying technology to North Korea, Libya and Iran as part of the process allowing them to make enriched uranium that can be used either to generate electricity or make weapons

emphasis added


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Those customers sound like the Halliburton route, judging by previous fines, etc. Could this be why Pork Chop Boy is getting so blustery?

:evilgrin:


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hedda_foil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #212
215. "In separate comments, El Baradei ..."
Does anyone have any question that the anonymous source here is Dr. El Baradei himself? And yes, it does indeed bear very Halliburtonesque hallmarks.
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #212
222. said everything except "company, thy name is halliburton"
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
73. Now see Pallas, your conclusions are wrong...
This is what I meant when you did this..
leading people off on a wild goose chase in the wrong direction:

"To catch newbies up-we are awaiting indictments leading to WH"
Posted by Pallas180

for the exposure of CIA covert agent Valerie Plame.

Then we started looking at why Cheney and the WH and Rove and Dimson
went after Valerie Plame and exposed her.

We have come to the conclusion the exposure was not really payback to her husband, Joe Wilson former ambassador, who exposed that the letter stating Iraq had nuclear material and had purchased it from Niger was untrue and the letter was forged, which the administration had used in the State of Union and to convince the American people that Iraq had to be pre-emptively invaded.

We think that it is highly possible that because Valerie Plame's spy job was to track illegal WMD, she was getting close to finding out the
administration, or Halliburton, or Cheney was involved in illegal sale
of nuke materials to an enemy country which is against the US Law.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

When here we have serious credible evidence the Bush Gang were after Joe Wilson and "outed" his wife to get at him.

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=V...

"Some of those notes described efforts to discredit Wilson by the White House Iraq Group, including Rove, in July of last year as the group was struggling to counter Wilson's allegations that the White House had exaggerated the potential nuclear threat posed by Saddam Hussein to the United States. It was during that time that two senior administration officials leaked information to columnist Robert Novak that Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, was a covert CIA operative."

"A federal law-enforcement official said that "there was serious discussion at the highest levels of the Justice Department" as to whether it was "proper" or a "good idea" for Ashcroft to receive briefings not only regarding what Rove had told the FBI, but also what other evidence existed, such as Libby's notes, that might corroborate or contradict Rove's account."
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #73
106. Tellurian- "We have come to the conclusion" based on our
Edited on Thu Jul-08-04 08:18 PM by Pallas180
assumptions..... it's also taking some license.

all of the thread is assumption, reaching scenarios, probable conclusions based on the information we are all able to gleen and contribute.

When you care to, you write quite well and engage in the same suppositions based on common sense and "connecting the dots" just
as all of us do.

When you don't care to you are quite obtuse and can become a pain in
the arse. So knock it off Tell and forget the nitpicking for fun -
stick to contributing some good stuff to the threads. (or I'm gonna stop talking to you)

BTW, having been an investigator for 14 years, I'm pretty good at
conclusions..... and you?

Thanks
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #106
123. oh, oh, sounds like somebody needs a nap!
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #73
110. Tellurian
Condescension does not become you dear . . .

We can't all be as wise and learned as your good self. I'm sure YOU are never wrong.
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
125. that link, fixed
http://www.guardian.co.uk/oil/story/0,11319,1146372,00....

I don't think it's unreasonable that there may have been more than one reason for going after Plame, in addition to revenge/discredit for Wilson's NYT oped. For one thing, we know Cheney was visiting the CIA to apply pressure for Iraq. He may have met her then and maybe even met resistance from her as well. Maybe, if she was on Iraq, by removing her Cheney would get a friendlier CIA and send the message to tell him what he wants.

But could be Halliburton, or some other investigation that he wanted to shut down, as conjectured--all of those reasons, one of those reasons, any two. Need to know what exactly she was working on if you want to sort it out. Hopefully will come out soon.

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #125
210. Snazzy - a what if- what if Plame was getting together with French
prosecutors who were indicting Cheney and had thoroughly looked into Cheney's dealings, bribery; and what if the French were glad to share information with her in their files which were not germaine to their case, but would have been of interest to her and helpful in the
type of case she would build? ? ? hmmmmm?

Another good reason for Cheney and Rumsfeld's attack on the French,
boycott the French etc.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #210
232. yeah, you might have something there...but, the point is being over looked
Edited on Sat Jul-10-04 03:46 AM by Tellurian
The target all along was Wilson. Plame was destined to be the bait. The simple fact of the matter is Bush was going to take them both "out", no matter what.

If Wilson had kept quiet and not said anything about the LIE, he would have been the scapegoat for the lie in the end. (Hold this thought)

Digressing for a moment..

I couldn't believe what I was hearing today. The media is still pushing Bush's Lie blaming bad intelligence as justification for the War. I'm not sure where Bush campaigned today. Wherever it was, he was still repeating the Lie. Contorting his face begging the audience to believe what he was telling them...

"THERE *WERE* WMD in IRAQ!"

WE, (not I) went to War with Iraq based on good/bad intelligence. (he likes using words and definitions to confuse..(ex..based on good intelligence one day.. the intelligence was bad the next day)

Now, forget that Wilson ever called Bush out.

If Wilson had *not* spoken up and revealed Bush's LIE in the SOTU Address, but instead had gone along with Bush and remained silent.

His silence would have been his undoing.

Wilson had been earmarked as Bush's exit strategy 4 yrs ago. I'll say it again in case you missed it the first time...

WILSON was what we would call in a Republican kind of way, BUSH'S EXIT STRATEGY from Iraq..a psychological exit strategy if you will.

About now,Bush would have said..Wilson betrayed our country. He was formerly the Ambassador to Iraq, a trusted diplomat. His wife a top secret CIA agent and lauded him to the hilt as trusted American. However, in short order his tone would change...to calling Wilson a betrayer of his country, a *TRAITOR*. Bush's speech would have directed anyone's anger over the War directly at Wilson. By the time Bush got through with his press briefing, Wilson would have replaced him, as the most hated man in the world.

Bush, (as he is still doing today,) is blaming bad CIA intelligence.

Watching Bush speak today, there was something missing from his spiel. Something that just rang hollow..The speech was the same ole..

I noticed he was practically turning himself inside out literally, laying over the top of the podium trying to convince his audience he was telling the Truth...what I saw lacking from his speech that would have been the lock on his speech... is PROOF!

What better PROOF could he have had if he could've pointed to Joe Wilson? And the big Plus, Joe's wife had been outed as a CIA operative. (Outing Valerie had been planned all along. The only question was when?..)

The *twofer* strikes again..Two birds with one stone.

Bush would have produced, as evidence *against* Wilson, his original report stating there were NO sales of yellow cake to Iraq. Against a document most likely forged (supposedly from Wilson) the report he used as the centerpiece for the SOTU Address, stating there was good
reason to believe yellow cake *was sold* to Iraq. (If those 16 words had gone openly Undisputed by Wilson. Bush had successfully set the TRAP..

I don't know if anyone remembers Clinton saying, Bush has no exit strategy to get out of Iraq. He said it several times months after the war began..The truth is Bush didn't want or need one. He had Wilson. The trap was set...now to reveal him as a full fledged Traitor.

Today as Bush was giving his speech he would have been pointing to Wilson as the Traitor responsible for the BAD intelligence that forced him to attack Iraq. And absolved himself completely of being responsible for the death and destruction that has followed because of the war.

(if you know anything about the story of Benedict Arnold) read the link if you don't.

By now, Wilson would be on the front pages of every newspaper in the World as the biggest Traitor to this country since the conspiracist, traitor, Benedict Arnold. And we'd all be starting threads waiting for news of a trial date. Bush didn't need or want and exit strategy for Iraq...We wanted and needed (and still needs)a fall guy to blame for the War.

The reason for the level of difficulty in putting this puzzle together is because the assumptions are wrong. Wilson changed the dynamics of the puzzle by going public..Bush never counted on Wilson writing a book either as testament to his Truth.

What if Wilson never said a word after the State of the Union Address? What if he never corrected the 16 words used to reinforce Bush's desperation to go to War? (silence is compliance)

When you revert back to the way the Bush familia planned this in the first place, then it all makes sense... The original vendetta against Wilson goes back before the 00'election. The key to this whole affair (to me) was when Wilson refused to donate to BushII's campaign...

That was when they were sure Wilson could no longer be trusted and declared him a traitor (to their camp) Wilson stated he was supporting Gore in 00 for president.. The Bushes are a vindictive bunch so they crafted a plan to make him pay, pay dearly for Wilson's betrayal by using him as the excuse for the mistake of the preemptive strike on Iraq.

They made sure to present the right opportunity to Plame, like bait on a hook, they'd slip Wilson's head into the noose.

Perfect...now Bush is off the hook!

(at least this is my take on it..)

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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
12. Contact info for those excellent, dedicated souls who wish to NAG someone:
"IF YOU REALLY WANT TO DO SOMETHING...make a phone call or send a paper letter. E-mails are quick and cheap and don't carry the weight of a phone call or a PAPER LETTER. Paul Begala says a hundred paper letters would change the direction of a news program." DUer grasswire, 5/20/04

And another...

A TESTIMONIAL from another fellow DUer here:

"will you please write that to media when you feel that way?"
Posted by nofurylike
i work on media rapid resonse, and you would be surprised how much difference it makes to write them. the more of us do, the more some really do double-take.

most news sources have a contact link, and even just a short, 'look again' to them matters - complete coherent explanations, even more so!

so do thank-yous to those who get things correct, and honest. that reinforcement makes a distinct difference.

keep on


peace



And finally, PLEASE NOTE MY SIG LINE TO CALL YOUR REPS, TOLL FREE!!!

OR, TRY (877) 762 8762. Itll get you there, too! (Thank you, DUer redqueen!)

OR, theres also 1-888-508-2974. This, too, gets you to the Capitol Hill Switchboard TOLL FREE. But sometimes it gets tied up.

Please note, here, The World's Greatest Lists of Media Contacts updated May 5, 2004 in the following thread:

LINK:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


IF THEY THINK WE DONT CARE, THEY WONT, EITHER!


Folks, many people have worked awfully hard to compile these contact names/numbers/emails/fax #s. Take advantage of them! And tell the people you're calling/writing/emailing/faxing - "FOLLOW UP! FOLLOW THE MONEY!"

I'll say it again - IF THEY THINK WE DON'T CARE, THEY WON'T, EITHER!!
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. thanks Calimary. Somewhere there's a list of all media posted
on the internet.

Has newspaper and tv e mail addresses.

I mean hundreds of them

Could you find it or ask around and post it.

I spent some time yesterday looking but couldn't find it.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. For the past 100 years the US Army has been used to invade countries
for oil and banking and other companies.

For Newbies, read this:

How the US Marines were used by Corporations in the 20th Century


In 70 years nothing has changed. Guess what? We have always been warmongering colonialists. It's just that we the American people didn't know it and apparently all of us here on DU still don't. How naive we are.

US Marine Corps Major-General Butler
is a man who won America's highest military award for bravery (the Congressional Medal of Honor) twice. His style of warfare was unusual not only for his personal courage, but for the energy he put into avoiding bloodshed when it was possible to achieve his aims in other ways. Not surprisingly, this engendered a remarkable loyalty among the men who served under him - and that loyalty was why certain men (in 1934)asked Butler to lead a military attack of 500,000 men on Washington DC, with the goal of capturing President Roosevelt (to which he replied he would gather 500,000 men to fight them)

but he is most famous for revealing, in his book, " War Is A Racket" how the United States Marines were used by the Corporations:

I helped make Mexico and especially

Tampico safe for American oil interests

in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba

a decent place for the National City

Bank boys to collect revenues in. I

helped in the raping of half-a-dozen

Central American republics for the benefit

of Wall Street. The record of racketeering

is long. I helped purify

Nicaragua for the international banking

house of Brown Brothers in 1909-12. I

brought light to the Dominican Republic

for American sugar interests in 1916.

I helped make Honduras `right' for

American fruit companies in 1903. In

China in 1927 I helped see to it that

Standard Oil went its way unmolested

... Looking back on it, I felt I might

have given Al Capone a few hints. The

best he could do was to operate this

racket in three city districts. We

Marines operated on three continents.

In his book War Is A Racket, Butler argued for a powerful navy, but one prohibited from travelling more than 200 miles from the US coastline. Military aircraft could travel no more than 500 miles from the US coast and the army would be prohibited from leaving the United States altogether. Butler also proposed that all workers in defence industries, from the lowest labourer to the highest executive, be limited to `thirty dollars a month, the same wage as the lads in the trenches get'. He also proposed that a declaration of war should be passed by a plebiscite in which only those subject to conscription would be eligible to vote.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1373/is_n11_ ...





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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Kicking cause this is so important. Where's H20 by the way?
:kick"
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. How stupid do they think we are?Repug on CNN announcing dimson
"did not misuse the info about WMD, he got the wrong information" (from the CIA), he says the "commission" is going to report.

Hellooooo? The CIA and others have already testified the WMD was taken out of the speech twice AND SOMEONE PUT IT BACK IN?

Hello, Cheney's private intel people?

Cheeze. This means there's not only a war against the admin by the
CIA, but there's a war between the real intel agency and the ones set
up by Cheney and Rumsfeld.!
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
129. I think H2O Man did what he came to do and then got out of the way
He seems to be fond of Sufi stories. I suspect he may be trying to actualize this one, about the trickster/wise man Mulla Nasrudin:

One day the villagers thought they would play a joke on Nasrudin. As he was supposed to be a holy man of some indefinable sort, they went to him and asked him to preach a sermon in their mosque. He agreed.

When the day came, Nasrudin mounted the pulpit and spoke:

"O people! Do you know what I am going to tell you?"

"No, we do not know," they cried.

"Until you know, I cannot say. You are too ignorant to make a start on," said the Mulla, overcome with indignation that such ignorant people should waste his time. He descended from the pulpit and went home.

Slightly chagrined, a deputation went to his house again, and asked him to preach the following Friday, the day of prayer.

Nasrudin started his sermon with the same question as before.

This time the congregation answered, as one man:

"Yes, we know."

"In that case," said the Mulla, "there is no need for me to detain you longer. You may go." And he returned home.

Having been prevailed upon to preach for the third Friday in succession, he started his address as before:

"Do you know or do you not?"

The congregation was ready.

"Some of us do, and others do not."

"Excellent," said Nasrudin, "then let those who know communicate their knowledge to those who do not."

And he went home.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #129
132. ROFL- good one STAR. and exactly what is happening.
:)

It's rather lovely.

There is a saying in certain disciplines:

"no more knowledge can come in until the knowledge you have is
given out"....that seems to be happening. :)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #129
172. Nope .... not quite ,,,,,,
Interesting theory ..... but I'm here again.

Some things are easily explained .... some are harder to explain .... and some can't be explained at all. Suffice to say that circumstances beyond my control made communications impossible for a couple of days .... and not because I did not wish to participate.

But! I'm trying to review all that has gone on in the past few days.... on this thread ... not in the news!.... and will be up to speed by 11 pm est ..... please be patient, and don't doubt that I'm here for the long haul....
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #172
189. Nice how it just worked out that way, then
There really is something to be said for telling people there *is* a big picture and then letting them try to figure it out on their own.

I don't think I've ever seen a set of threads on DU as long yet as coherent as this one. (*Hey, man, nice set of threads!*)

Given that getting DU-ers to line up on anything is like the proverbial herding of cats, I'd say you've accomplished something of a miracle -- and done most of it by remote control.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #189
194. You have an interesting take
on this thread .... and the process involved. Not how I see it, but to each his/her own.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #129
173. Nope .... not quite ,,,,,,
Interesting theory ..... but I'm here again.

Some things are easily explained .... some are harder to explain .... and some can't be explained at all. Suffice to say that circumstances beyond my control made communications impossible for a couple of days .... and not because I did not wish to participate.

But! I'm trying to review all that has gone on in the past few days.... on this thread ... not in the news!.... and will be up to speed by 11 pm est ..... please be patient, and don't doubt that I'm here for the long haul....
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #129
174. Nope .... not quite ,,,,,,
Interesting theory ..... but I'm here again.

Some things are easily explained .... some are harder to explain .... and some can't be explained at all. Suffice to say that circumstances beyond my control made communications impossible for a couple of days .... and not because I did not wish to participate.

But! I'm trying to review all that has gone on in the past few days.... on this thread ... not in the news!.... and will be up to speed by 11 pm est ..... please be patient, and don't doubt that I'm here for the long haul....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #174
187. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
208. The US Army was active in
"surveillance" of US citizens in the late '60s, etc. The best known example is the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. in Memphis. I'm sure, Pallas180, that you are familiar with the connections between J Edgar Hoover and the Army Intel, including "shared staff."
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #208
213. Hi H20 - yes I have some idea of that, since even today they
often hold meetings at army posts - and I'm sure they're busy tracking down all our real names, or have them already (are we more dangerous than the terra - ists? - but since they already have
a file on me, what the hell. One thing I did find out through a friend in the agency (before the wtc) is that you would be surprised
who they have files on.

Apparently everybody from councilmen to mayors to disrict attorneys and their spouses to judges in every small town, to every big town, and of course the rest of us regular jetsum and flotsum.

They just track people, not bothering them, until they get into positions of some power - and if the agency does not want them in a position of power, then they move on them with investigations, indictments, arrests. Poof - no more threat of the wrong people invading the power structure or having access.

It's always good to keep a low profile.

Dimson and Darth Vader I gather thought they were above that. I'm suspecting they're wrong.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #213
238. army intel & Memphis
People would do well to read the information available on the role of the army in "watching" the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr in Memphis in the spring of 1968.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
90. Well, there's always Take Back the Media.
That one I just posted there was, for want of a better term, a "master list" that I started to compile after seeing lots of people here dropping contact information into the mix, by single entries and LOOOOOOOOOONNNNNGGGGGGG threads - like maggrwaggr's.

The one here, just above, is the last update. But since then, I've found more, thanks to the continuing research and resourcefulness of other DUers here and a wee bit of my own, and incorporated them. I will put out a new update as soon as I can - will try to get to it tomorrow (Friday) because today's kinda shot around our house... (sick spousal unit).

But to answer your question, I'd go, first, to www.takebackthemedia.com - OR, just consult my earlier post on this thread.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #90
112. thanks Calimary. That's the kind of stuff we need. We'll keep
their e mails busy.

How about composing a letter telling them how outraged we are
that this misadministration would even think of postponing elections.

And telling them we won't stand for it. We'll sit down and bring
this country's economy to a standstill.

something along those lines???
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Calimary the link doesn't work!
I wonder if it is in the archives somewhere --- I'll look.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. Here is another Media Contact list - 1st one didn't work
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
93. Yeah, this is a good one.
Shoot. I gotta put a new update out, tho...

sorry...

I'll get started on it tonight.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #93
124. thanks for that, calimary. I actually didn't know it existed
I'm saving it to my hard drive.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
20. Heads up - Plame situation on TV - is one of these guys H20?
librechik (1000+ posts) Thu Jul-08-04 02:43 PM
Original message
headsup: Plame discussion today on PBS NewsHour


featuring Ray Suarez with Adam Liptak, legal correspondent for the NYTimes and first amendment expert

check your local listings--it's the evening news on PBS


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LeftHander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Oooh maybe the annoucement is at 5:00 p.m. EST
The indictments that is....

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. H20 - we're looking for you - where are ya fella?
:kick:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #22
175. I'm back......
How are things here?
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #175
177. H2O we all want to know what you think of yesterday's news
Edited on Fri Jul-09-04 03:29 PM by arbustochupa
The News Hour with Jim Lehrer featured a story about the proceedings in the Plame case. See posts 82 & 91 for a summary, if you go to post 146 you can listen to the audio link.

Transcript not up yet.

Welcome back!
:hi:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #177
181. Interesting.....
In theory, a grand jury proceeding in an investigatory role has the power to compell journalists to reveal sources.... though the said journalist can opt to defy the order.

One of the six other journalists could also tell another journalist, who can then tell the authorities.

The White House can "order" employees to sign releases, allowing the media to speak openly. Fitzgerald was attempting to take this route.

I'm finding the senate "report" of interest ... there is a growing divide, as more democrats are starting to have some guts .... perhaps some conscience, too ....
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #181
185. I'm wondering about Novak
If they are taking Time and NYT to court, why not Novak? It was Novak who actually committed the crime of exposing a CIA agent. The NYT lawyer wondered why they were not going after Novak. Seems like if they can compel a journalist to reveal his source, they ought to be after Novak instead of the NYT and Time.

You are right, it does seem as if some congressmen are getting brave, or that their conscience has gotten the best of them. I certainly hope the trend continues. In a lot of ways, I think * took them by surprise. They didn't realize how tricky the * administration could be. Now they know, and maybe they can foresee the next * move. And not be caught like deer in the headlights. And you know, GET A SPINE.

I hope the tide is turning. Awfully glad to have you back.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #185
198. Thanks!
Goodt be back. I tried to have an associate post something for me, which may sound silly....considering I wasn't gone long. And this thread is about the situation in the capital, not about me.

Novak: remember in Vince Bugliosi's classic book on "The Betrayal of America" where Vince spoke about the CRIME the Supreme Court Justice's committed? There are crimes that simply violate a regulation, and there are crimes that everyone knows in their GUT is a crime. Well, we all know what Novak did was low. Criminal. Immoral.But the law does not allow consequences for it.

But when we look closer, we see that Novak is indeed cursed: he will be his own miserable self .... for the rest of his life. And that's worse than a fine or an incarceration. The guy has lost any respect he may once have had. On "Crossfire," guests have to hold their tongues. "You have any special source for that, Bob?"
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #198
203. so you're saying that they won't or can't prosecute him?
That kinda sucks, H2O. I guess I misunderstood what Liptak was saying? That the journalists were going to lose their battle to keep their sources confidential?

Why wouldn't CNN just fire him?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #203
205. It has to do with Grand Juries.
People are under the impression that a reporter can never be legally compelled to reveal a source. Not true. In certain circumstances, including a grand jury investigation, as well as being deposed in a civil action, a reporter can be compelled to reveal a source.

Novak is already in a jail of his own making. He is under contract at CNN, but nobody -- nobody! -- likes him. Tucker Carlson makes the cruelest jokes behind Novak's back. He is about as popular as a nasty little poodle that shits on the living room rug four times a day. People are tired of cleaning up after him. He takes after cheney in that way.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #205
211. I'm glad that Novak is persona non grata in journalistic circles but . . .
He is the linchpin of this whole case. I am asking, can NOVAK be compelled to testify? They are going to coerce the other journalists into revealing their source, why not him?

I can imagine that what he did would make a lot of people very angry -- journalists, I mean. Because of him 6 or so other journalists are going to have to reveal their source. Even though they took a pass on the story when they were approached initially. But if the others have to do it, why not him?

Thank goodness you are back to answer these questions. It was not as fun poking around for two days without you. H2O, you are OUR Deep Throat.

And I have another question -- you say that the case has expanded in ways that did not seem likely four months ago. Fitzgerald is a very thorough investigator.

We may have we already covered this, but what do you mean?

Okay, third question. Youre saying that Plames and Wilsons investigations overlapped, and it is this overlap that is causing the * administration to panic. What is the overlap? Or if you cant answer that, can you tell me why this would cause WH officials to panic?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #211
237. Good questions.
I'm going to try to take some time this morning to answer a few of these. First on that nasty poodle Novak: yes, he can be compelled to testify. However, keep two things in mind: (1) Novak is emotionally impaired at this time. I'm not saying that in jest, rather as a fact that Fitzgerald etc have to keep in mind in evaluating his potential behaviors .... could you trust ANYTHING he says? Would he try to manipulate the system, and draw attention upon himself? Fail to comply with a court order, allowing himself to go to "jail" to disrupt the proceedings? (2) In light of that, and keeping in mind that in Washington, DC, the identities of five (perhaps six) other journalists approached is an open secret. If you were in Fitzgerald's shoes, would you play game with Novak, or use some of the respected journalists, who are 1000 times more stable than Novak?

Any time you have an important mission, it is important that you not become distracted by a turd like Novak. On that journey along the sidewalk of life, there indeed may be a nasty pile of dog novak that you have to step around, and avoid getting it on your shoe. But you don't waste time argueing with dog novak.

What is taking the "extra time" right now? Safe bet: if the information uncovered up until mid-June only pointed at two or three White House officials, even at Rove's level, we will know this on Wednesday, July 14th, by mid-day e.s.t. If there is a delay, it is because of the depth of criminal behaviors goes even higher.

If it goes higher, than we are not simply talking about a skunk like Agnew being a greedy fool and skimming some funds as governor prior to becoming vp. We're talking about an administration that -- at the highest levels -- attempted to put CI/MI in check by exposing the identity of an operative AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL who was working on a sting operation to uncover information on the sale of WMD components. As always, we on this thread ask "why?" before asking "how?" and it becomes "crystal clear" that Plame's investigation HAD TO BE DERAILED.

Why? Believe me when I say that Fitzgerald KNOWS WHY! It is not stretching the truth to say this is a matter of national security! Look at what information we have on these four threads! Fitzgerald has similar information, though obviously in greater detail. And that's WHY it may take longer to come to a head. Yet I'm still thinking we get something very good on 7-14.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #181
216. Sen Intel Com report cut in 1/2. 1st blame CIA. AFTER 11/2
elections, the GOP Chairman Roberts will let Rockefeller DEM Co-Chair tell the rest of the story. Rockefeller in interviews is trying to indicate Cheney Rumsfeld Feith pressured analysts to come up with what the administration wanted to hear.

Nobody is mentioning Newt Gingrich's visits to the analysts and his
pressuring yet.

Roberts is trying to put it all off on CIA, while Jay Rockefeller
is trying to implicate dimson by saying he created an environment of
pressure with his speeches and interviews etc.

Interesting fellow, Jay Rockefeller. He keeps a very straight poker face. His body language definitely turned away from Roberts,who is trying to be very politte to him (tells me Rockefeller has been angry about the limited report) and you have to watch Rockefeller's mouth carefully. A smile for him is the slightest twitch of the left side of his mouth.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #216
240. Newt is playing a big role today,
isn't he? A man rejected by the public, who showed a willingness to SHUT DOWN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT in the past. We would do well to watch a fox who is willing to SHUT DOWN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. A fox who will create a crisis to not merely distract attention from what is going on at the margins of public awareness, but to justify the strong-arm tactics needed to "bound and gag" any public official who were trying to alert the public to the DANGER of, oh ... let's say the shutting down of the federal government prior to the fall elections .... if that's what it took .... to keep some skunks from being rejected by the public.

On the other hand, we have Rockefeller.... who knows exactly what is going on. The small amount of information being released -- to distract public attention -- has been "disrupted" in large part by a movie by Michael Moore. For every action, there is an equal reaction, and Rockefeller knows that even moderate republicans are upset by the revelations from F 9-11..... the senate report on the White House's role in the intel manipulation leading to war in Iraq .... plus the Plame indictments .... would result in moderate republicans turning away from this administration.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. are your sure about this? I just went to their website . . .
nothing on there about Valerie Plame discussion tonight. Where did you see that post?
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catlawyer Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. I found it here ...
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. i love anyone named catlawyer - thanks and welcome to du!
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catlawyer Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Why thank you very much! NT
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Thanks Cat, and welcome!
:hi:

I guess I'll have to wait for the transcript. Saw your post too late.
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catlawyer Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Is it on earlier than 6 p.m. in your locale?
It's on at 6 p.m. where I'm at (west coast).
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. no idea, and I can't seem to find out. I'm actually on the phone
on hold, with the TV station station. Shoot, I just got their voicemail.

I'm rarely home before 6:00PM so I don't know when the show comes on.

I've never seen it here, maybe we don't have it.
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catlawyer Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Try this link to see if it's showing
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Hot Dog Cat Lawyer! Thank you! I found it now I gotta go
It comes on at 7:00. We don't get that channel at the office, I gotta run home.

Bless you. :hug:
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catlawyer Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Awesome!
And I gotta run and pick up the kiddos. Hopefully the program provides some fodder for further discussion later today ...
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. 6: PM found Lehrer on Channel 2 - Adelphia cable.
:kick:
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. Teletubbies is on -- I guess I can watch that
The transcript will be available tomorrow night -- 24 hours
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catlawyer Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Teletubbies
if that were showing on our other available PBS station at the same time as the Newshour, you can probably guess who would force me to watch one over the other ...

Thank god it is not!
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. welcome to DU, catlawyer
and congrats on figuring out the baffling NewsHour search/index page.

I usually give up and go to nexis!
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catlawyer Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Thanks much - I *really* wanted to see this segment
and since I have to pick up children from day care, I wanted to be sure I'd be home in time to see it, if it was going to be on!
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Lestatdelc Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #20
146. AUDIO LINK - PBS News Segment
Here is the real audio stream from PBS News Hour on that segment:

http://audio.pbs.org:8080/ramgen/newshour/expansion/200...
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #20
226. I'm not going to TRY to guess
who H2O Man is.

Might be better for us that way? :shrug:
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
24. Helen Thomas says "this government lies" =
Helen Thomas Points to Government "Lies"

By E & P Staff

Published: July 08, 2004

NEW YORK At the age of 83, journalistic legend Helen Thomas obviously doesn't believe in mincing words. "This government lies," she told a group of editors, reporters and interns from The Indianapolis Star on Wednesday. She also called Bush administration claims on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction "baloney."

At a downtown luncheon, the Hearst columnist added, "I think we have a government that absolutely is ignoring the truth and a press that is ignoring the truth," according to the Star's Sara Scavongelli. The press, she said, is doing a poorer job of covering the White House than ever.

"I really think that reporters for two, three months after 9/11 -- everyone was afraid to ask their question," Thomas said. "They would not ask any question that would appear to be unpatriotic."

Reached by the Star, Rich Noyes, research director of the Virginia-based Media Research Center, called Thomas' remarks "a totally fictional account of what happened since 9/11. By early 2002, it was really back to normal, with reporters asking many, many tough questions both about domestic policy and foreign policy....

"When Helen Thomas says the press was too soft, what she really means is the press should have been more of an actor in the process instead of covering the process," Noyes said. "That's just not the right role for a journalist."
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
47. kick of love for helen thomas
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #24
201. Helen is great!
She has dared to tell the truth when most journalists found it easier to go along with the lie.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #201
227. ...and became marginalized by this admin as a result.
SHE knows what's up; after reporting on how many administrations... well, I'm sort of surprised she hasn't had an "accident" yet.

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
28. another thread on Plame says delay in indictments because
lancdem (1000+ posts) Thu Jul-08-04 02:36 PM
Original message
This could be why there haven't been any Plame indictments yet

Edited on Thu Jul-08-04 02:37 PM by lancdem
I was checking google news and found this story from two weeks ago, when Bush was questioned by Fitzgerald. Buried in the story is a sentence about how two news organizations are fighting subpoenas and a hearing is set for July 8 (today) in federal court. It makes sense for no indictments to be brought before that issue is resolved.

http://www.tdn.com/articles/2004/06/25/nation_world/new ...

Fitzgerald is also attempting to subpoena reporters to testify before a grand jury about their coverage of the leaks -- a tactic that under Justice Department guidelines is permitted only as a last resort. Time magazine and NBC are fighting the subpoena requests, and a hearing is set for July 8 in federal court in Washington.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

from Pallas - NBC owns MSNBC where that plick Novak is on Crossfire.

I'm not sure of how Time is tied in but I could guess that the WH called Issikoff and tried to get him to expose covert agent Plame.

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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. pallas the link for that article does not work
What is up with this stuff today?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Yeah Arbust - I just tried it and it went to Daily News but no
Edited on Thu Jul-08-04 04:05 PM by Pallas180
story.

We'll have to try to google it later.

NPR is supposed to have something right now on Lehrer about Plame,
at 5 o'clock

Heck - can't find it - maybe it's on at 6 in Florida
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. not on NPR, I've got streaming audio on
Not on PBS Jim Lehrer, at least not listed on the website -- at all.

The two commentators listed in that post talk on PBS news hour often, but not tonight, according to the schedule. Unless I'm going blind.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. dupe
Edited on Thu Jul-08-04 04:17 PM by arbustochupa
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. try this link for the 6/25 story
Edited on Thu Jul-08-04 04:21 PM by arbustochupa
http://www.tdn.com/articles/2004/06/25/nation_world/new...
Excerpt:
Fitzgerald is also attempting to subpoena reporters to testify before a grand jury about their coverage of the leaks -- a tactic that under Justice Department guidelines is permitted only as a last resort. Time magazine and NBC are fighting the subpoena requests, and a hearing is set for July 8 in federal court in Washington.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. Cheney Faces Criminal Indictments; Other Illegal Actions Raise Warning Fla
Edited on Thu Jul-08-04 04:54 PM by Pallas180
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_4...



Vice President Dick Cheney faces criminal indictments for illegal activities while CEO of energy giant Halliburton and also illegally intervened to secure a $7 billion no-bid contract for his former employer after his election to office, an analysis by the White House counsels office concludes.

The Vice President is currently under investigation by French authorities for bribery, money laundering and misuse of corporate assets while at Halliburton and also faces a U.S. Securities & Exchange Commission probe of a $180 million "slush fund" that may have been used to pay bribes.

-more-


can't help myself....WAHOOOOO!!!!!!!
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
63. Gotta do it! This is history in the making....
The Vice President is currently under investigation by French authorities for bribery, money laundering and misuse of corporate assets while at Halliburton and also faces a U.S. Securities & Exchange Commission probe of a $180 million "slush fund" that may have been used to pay bribes.

...good show! We were as tired as everyone else waiting for our own Justice Dept to bring indictments indeed! "Let the Eagle Soar" and bring down the House of Bush!

Although the White House Counsel analysis is not available to the public because of the secrecy of attorney-client privilege, it has generated speculation among senior White House aides who suggest the Vice President should step down as President George W. Bushs running mate for the November Presidential elections. Such talk has increased in GOP circles lately with former New York Senator Alfonse D'Amato Wednesday calling on Bush to dump Cheney.

Vice President Cheney

Those who have read the analysis say it presents a devastating case against the Vice President and concludes Cheney has violated both the spirit and intent of federal laws on conflict of interest.

Even worse, Cheney faces indictment by a French court on charges of bribery, money laundering and misuse of corporate assets because of fraud associated with the construction of a $6 billion petrochemical plant built by Halliburton in Nigeria in partnership with Technip, one of Frances largest petrochemical engineering companies.

Cheney is under investigation by Judge Renaud van Ruymbeke, one of Frances famous investigating magistrates. Ruymbeke is a legend in legal circles because of his investigation into French campaign scandals in the 1990s, resulting in multiple indictments and convictions of top officials.

Because of Ruymbekes work on the case, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission has opened an investigation into a $180 million slush fund that the French judge says was used to pay bribes.

London Lawyer Jeffrey Tesler, a consultant to Halliburton, admitted under oath in May that he made payments from the fund to Albert Jack Stanley, president of Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown & Root and a longtime friend and associate of Cheney. The payments, Tesler said, were personally approved by Cheney, who headed Halliburton at the time.

Although Cheney left his position at Halliburton before becoming Vice President, his financial disclosure statements show he continues to receive dividends from stock as well as deferred compensation from the company.

At least $5 million in payments to Stanley from the fund were wired to a secret numbered bank account in Zurich which Judge Ruymbeke discovered belonged to the KBR President. Tesler also testified he paid another $350,000 to another KBR executive, William Chaudran, through another secret bank account on the isle of Jersey.

Cheney served as CEO of Halliburton from 1995 until 2000 and approved the Nigerian contract in 1999. Halliburton publicly announced on June 18 it was severing all ties with Stanley, admitting he had received improper personal benefits while serving as President of KBR. Sources within Halliburton say the companys internal investigation clearly implicates Vice President Cheney but acknowledge the investigation will remain sealed in light of the companys $7 billion sweetheart contract with the Pentagon for work in Iraq.

French Judge Ruymbeke, however, is said to be offering Stanley a deal if he implicates Cheney and sources within the French legal system say the judge has more than enough to indict the Vice President on charges of bribery, money laundering and misuse of corporate assets.

The assessment of the White House counsels office agrees that Cheney faces serious legal implications from the pending French indictments and add that the Vice Presidents illegal and unethical lobbying on behalf of Halliburton for the no-bid contract raises additional questions.

Cheney, however, is standing firm and recently told Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont to fuck off when the Senator questioned him on the Halliburton matters.

According to White House sources, President George W. Bush laughed the matter off at a recent cabinet meeting.

Fuck em all, Bush said.

The Presidents bravado, however, is not shared by worried White House aides. Some point to the last vice president to step down because of fraud and corruption Spiro T. Agnew, who served under President Richard M. Nixon, another Republican forced to leave office because of scandal.

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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #42
77. so is cheney going down so bfee can replace him for vp?
sorry if this has been covered already
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #42
114. French criminally indicting Cheney-now we know why Freedom Fries
became popular around the GOP's.

Can you imagine, they tried to blackmail the French prosecutor by
turning the whole country, America, against the French, purportedly
because the French wouldn't support dimson's war.

It was Cheney attempting to blackmail them to stop their investigation

PLICK. What a bunch of sociopathic plicks.
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #36
50. arbusto! glad to see you
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Good to see you too, friend! Howisya?
:hi:
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #54
75. fantastic! all the energy out there & exploring the truth is so
inspiring!

how are you... ill let you enjoy all the great threads and reports from the various k/e rally but i wanted to say hi and see how you are

also somewhere in the last thread i posted my letter to the wash post and nytimes

along with emailing this cnn show or that msnbc person,reading this thread etc im spending all my time on the computer!
and thanking God of course!
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #75
107. I'm doing okay, mildly disappointed with what they said on Lehrer
But this is getting so interesting.

My letters won't be going out until next week. I'm wanting to wait until after the famous 7/14 deadline that H2O laid on us. I saw yours, very good one. You've been a busy lady.

Still praying hard that the truth comes out, and SOON.

Not sure that the * administration won't find some way to spin it so they are somehow not at fault, or certainly that * himself is not at fault. I'm waiting for * to say he was out of the loop, like his old man. He won't be brave enough to do what Reagan did, and give a speech saying that he inadvertently let his people screw up, or whatever it was Reagan said (can't remember).

I was talking to a friend of mine about this case, and he said he is already preparing his speech to his Republican friends and relatives, about how he is forgiving of the * administration . . . NOT. He said he is prepared to be very magnanimous, and blame it all on utter stupidity. You know, like he has never met an intelligent Republican. All the college professors, artists, etc. that he knows are liberals. We live in Republican Country. I also work in Republican Country. There is no reasoning with them.

He also said that he read somewhere that *'s IQ is only 90. I hadn't heard that.

Anyway, glad you are filling your time with useful projects. Helps to stave off the anger at what is happening to our country!
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #107
113. i know. but justice will prevail. of course i dontknow how or when
or in what fashion! but something here and something there being broadcast exposing them, along with the energy out there about our ticket, well its a whole lot brighter than it has been i would say

conversely of course, this just allows us to find out more of the muck that * is capable of and is trying to perpetrate, so that can be hard i know
but like i said, the media has shown a few glimmers that they are at least catching on and questioning some things that are happening.

and then with people like you and all these great duers, the media and reps are hearing from us

hey! did you see that awesome speech on the senate floor today by sen byrd? no one could say it any better or pack more of a righteous punch than that!
if you didnt see it theres a thread about here today...

keep the faith my friend! the time for * will come...

i have to say im soooo thankful to be in 90% democratic territory - your job ismuch tougher than mine. i thank you for your fight and spirit
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #113
122. thanks faith, you always make me feel better!
Edited on Thu Jul-08-04 10:27 PM by arbustochupa
I know it is coming out now in dribs and drabs, but I want it all to come out NOW and have done with it. I haven't the patience for this sort of thing, really. We are all just putting on our tinfoil hats and guessing about what might come to pass. Of course we will just have to be patient. I'm thinking I need to scale back my time on DU a bit -- the little bit I learn here only makes me want MORE. As in, indictments, froggie marches, etc. I want them all to go to jail. And I know that probably won't happen.

Yes ma'am, I work with nothing but repubs. My computer techie guy is a Democrat. I have to wait for the network to go down before I can talk with someone who is sane. When F-911 came out I talked about it with our treasurer. She is such a smart lady, it just blows my mind that she is a Rep. I was really hoping she would go and see it. But NOPE. She doesn't want to see it even though she knows it is pretty damning of * -- or maybe BECAUSE it makes * look bad. Other than the computer guy I've got no one to talk about at work regarding this mess our country is in. They asked me today if I went to the St. Pete rally, so they know I'm active but they don't want to know just how active.

My close friends here in town are all Dems. But the people in this town with money (some here are quite wealthy -- citrus groves & cattle ranches) are die-hard Repugs. Bless their evil little hearts. They are perfectly nice people in every other way -- and good Catholics. I pray for them. Not only that but I TELL them that I pray for them, just to make 'em mad. We laugh about it. But I'm not kidding.

I'll look for the link on Sen. Byrd. Thanks for the tip. You're an angel.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
65. Technically speaking,
that plick Novak and Crossfire are on CNN, the infamous Clinton News Network, AKA Communist News Network.

:silly:

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #65
108. TP (( )) You have great humor. I see you picked up on my
secret word. :)

you get the rubber ducky ;)
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
46. Starroute- Here's the answer to where the money goes:
from the same Bluehill article on Cheney indictments


"London Lawyer Jeffrey Tesler, a consultant to Halliburton, admitted under oath in May that he made payments from the fund to Albert Jack Stanley, president of Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown & Root and a longtime friend and associate of Cheney. The payments, Tesler said, were personally approved by Cheney, who headed Halliburton at the time.

Although Cheney left his position at Halliburton before becoming Vice President, his financial disclosure statements show he continues to receive dividends from stock as well as deferred compensation from the company.

At least $5 million in payments to Stanley from the fund were wired to a secret numbered bank account in Zurich which Judge Ruymbeke discovered belonged to the KBR President. Tesler also testified he paid another $350,000 to another KBR executive, William Chaudran, through another secret bank account on the isle of Jersey."
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
62. Wahoo, can't wait til they also find Cheney's secret numbered
bank account in Zurich too.

He's toast. And when he's out, they can remove dimson kicking and
screaming.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Well, don't forget...after that we get Hastert as the pro-tem
If he's indicted...then we get Rumsfeld.

If he's indicted then we get Powell(?) I think...
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
67. Cheney
This topic seems to go right back to Cheney.

I believe there were several reasons for the outing of V. Plame.

Perhaps someone with the time and skill can list the reasons?

I believe that Cheney was attempting to nueter the CIA and usurpe the intell. to the OSP. Cheney is the key to this, I am now sure.
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #46
69. Lots of questionable dealings through the Channel Islands
IIRC, those islands are a remnant of the feudal system, and though they're under the sovereignty of the queen, they're not actually part of this United Kingdom. This apparently makes it possible to get away with stuff. For example, Khaled bin Mahfouz (BCCI figure, Osama bin Laden's brother-in-law, and the center of many shady dealings) established the Middle East Capital Group on Guernsey in 1996. I would assume that banks on Jersey are equally unaccountable.

However, in terms of what I'm wondering about, $5 million is chump change. Let me put it this way . . . the extraordinary and ever-growing volume of illicit trading and general graft and corruption on this planet now amounts to, as a very rough figure, a trillion dollars a year. This is enough money to make a lot of slimeballs rich beyond their wildest dreams -- or to give a small number of people power beyond anything known in history. Which do you think is really happening?

It may be tinfoil of me, but I willing to bet that #2 is the case -- or, at least, that certain people are dreaming of it and working towards it. There is certainly already enough financial clout in private hands to destabilize the economies of small to medium-sized nations. There may not yet be enough to take on countries like the US or China, but I'm sure that is coming. Already a well-funded nutcase like Reverend Moon can exercise an unholy degree of influence over Congress. Now try imagining something several degrees of magnitude beyond that . . .

Something bigger than any of us can easily imagine is going on, and we need to take it into account while we still have freedom of action to do something about it.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #69
109. STARROUTE - do you want to expound on that thought please?
"Something bigger than any of us can easily imagine is going on, and we need to take it into account while we still have freedom of action to do something about it."
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #109
127. Not easily -- it's more intuition than hard fact
So I'm going to have to ramble a bit to get at what I mean.

Probably the key word is globalization -- but globalization in the broadest sense. Think about it like this:

Since the late 19th century, everybody's been aware that the shape of the future would be that of a single world system. It's there in all the 20th century science fiction stories. The only question was how it would come about. It's easy to list the alternatives that were envisioned:

- An evil dictator tries to conquer the world and has to be overthrown.

- A peaceful Earth Federation takes shape by general consensus and goes out to the stars.

- One nation becomes the center of a Roman-style empire which is somewhat repressive but better than atomic annihilation.

- Alien invaders force the nations of the world to come together willy-nilly. Or there is some great disaster and the survivors rebuild civilization on a more peaceful basis.

Only none of these things ever happened or look very likely to happen. The evil dictators were all defeated. The United Nations fizzled. The Neocon dream of empire is dying on the vine. And despite some of Reagan's wilder flights of fancy (see http://www.aaaa.demon.nl/reagan.html ), alien invasions aren't in the cards either.

Instead, we seem to be living in a peculiar reality where the world is being pulled together more and more tightly (trade, the Internet, global pop culture) at the same time that it's flying apart in all directions, into a condition of extreme decentralization.

I don't know what the shape of the world will be 20 or 30 years from now -- but I sense strongly that there are people who want very badly to control it. And if they do, it will be much the worse for all of us.

In the 20th century, when power was exercised through nation-states, things were simple. The United States was the most powerful nation on earth, and if you could control, say, the State Department and the CIA (as the Dulles brothers did under Eisenhower), you had it made. In the 21st century, if that degree of power is to be had at all, it will come instead through control of the media, of intellectual "property," and of the Internet. Those are the prizes and that is where the real battles of the next ten years will be fought.

But as everything gets decentralized, it becomes harder and harder to control those things. In the old days, you had to be rich to own a printing press or record studio. Now all you need is a computer. And though the old-line media companies might wish to cripple computers so badly with digital rights management schemes that no one can do anything creative on their own, they're not going to succeed.

If government control and control through direct ownership both fail, the only way left to control things is with money. Vast amounts of money -- money enough to buy or bribe or intimidate anybody who might get in your way. Money enough to promote what you want promoted and kill what you want to suppress. Money enough to discover everyone's price and then ante up.

The amount of money necessary to control an entire planet has never been available. But something is changing. I don't have the financial background to explain it in technical terms, but there simply seems to be more of everything. US debt balloons. The stock market reaches undreamed-of levels. The Fed is pumping up the money supply right now to levels that lead people to wonder if some unacknowledged crisis is on the horizon.

Money speeds round the Earth faster and faster, with fewer and fewer barriers. And money makes more money, through control of financial markets. It seems that for the people setting the course of the US, the ability to move money around is far more important than the ability to actually make things that satisfy human needs.

At the same time, the arms trade and the illicit drug trade keep growing to insane levels, as do the antagonisms and deprivation that they feed on. Once, these trades were enough to create family fortunes. (Kerry's great-grandfather got rich off the opium trade to China, Bush's off arms sales during World War I.) Then they got big enough to help fund major covert operations, like those of the CIA from the 1950's to the 1980's. But now they have ballooned even beyond the needs of the black ops guys.

What is the meaning of those strange put options before 9/11? Were they just some strange side-effect, or were they part of the point of the operation? Why has the overthrow of the Taliban caused the opium trade to come roaring back? To whose benefit is it?

Consider Valerie Plame. Also consider Sibel Edmonds. Think about what are the greatest threats to the world today -- and think about who might want those threats perpetuated. Don't think in terms of a large number of petty hustlers blinded by greed -- think instead of a small number of people who know exactly what they're doing and will go to any lengths to protect it.

And then you tell me what is happening and what we need to do about it.
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #69
134. lawyers guns and money
(this post was originally intended for thread 3, which got too big--seems to fit here sorta)

I know there's been excellent bits and pieces here, including the motherlode of Riggs news archive posts by Seemslikeadream (links for what Im getting at are mostly in therejust my thoughts here). I suspect Riggs is just the tip of the iceberg--really a small bank, though formerly respected and certainly very symbolic, that got caught with its hand in the jar because of new bank secrecy act regs in the Patriot Act.

Jonathon Bush showed up, pissed in the temple, and now they are mopping up and sniffing for a buyer.

Ive been thinking BCCI is still kicking, or rather the same money and methods are, in a way, isnt it? I wonder if we are ramping up to some sort of massive bank scandal that the BFEE will again ask taxpayers to bail. After all, BFEE finds a scam and sticks with it.

I'm not sure I ever spent enough time to totally understand the extent of BCCI, and especially bin Mahfouz--one thing I wonder about is going back even further with an eye on Nazi money. Another time on that! Interesting, isnt it, that BCCI is today in court re: Bank of London, although I don't think we are reading much about it.

But we do have a broken Riggs to look at. Now divorcing itself of its international banking unit, based in Florida. Processing funds for the Saudis, which in at least two cases aided 9/11 hijackers, and also involved with the brutal dictator of Equatorial Guinea, who was buying up US properties with oil profits from US oil companies, at the expense of his people. I think that's a model. Find somewhere 'we' want the oil (that's = anywhere with oil), and teach your dictator well. How much in US properties did MM say the Saudi's owned?

Steven B. Pfeiffer runs (or maybe ran, things are changing) Riggs International, including the London and Channel Island branches, with Florida reporting to him. Interesting guy: Yale Law, Council on Foreign Relations, a former NATO commander, Navy, on board of a prominent SA co. too. But most interesting is he also a bigwig at Fulbright & Jaworski. Yeah, giant law firm, but also a giant energy law firm, and also a giant help the Saudis law firm. One notable client: Mahfouz.

Riggs Florida, the actual bank that processed foreign banks transactions, was/is run by a guy named Juan Luis Toro. Haven't turned up too much on him, except he's (or was until very recently) on two boards: FIBA (Florida International Bankers Association), where the current is President Thomas P. Noonan (an evil name if I ever heard one!).

Noonan runs BAC Florida (no relation to Bank of America--that's their stock symbol), the US face of a giant Nicaraguan bank/investors, mainly doing offshore credit card processing and buying property in Florida. BAC Florida was also just slapped with an enforcement from the Comptroller of Currency, just like Riggs. Jeb Bush and Noonan keynoted the Annual Assembly of the Federation of Latin American Bankers this past November, right after FTAA. Noonan also keynoted FIBA's annual money laundering conference in March. Noonan is now out of there--guess he wasn't a total expert on money laundering or they all wouldn't have been caught. Point is, Florida is the nexus.

Toro is also the most recent past prez of the Miami Bond Club (sadly, I know even less about bonds than I do about banking). Current prez is from UBS--also just fined, $100 million, for money laundering involving cash to Cuba, Libya, Iran and Yugoslavia.

Now all this I'm typing is just, so far, a guilt by association thing, i.e. suspicion and adding some pieces. But where there's a lot of Bush boys there's corruption smouldering (Jeb enabling this in Florida somehow, Jonathan with Riggs in DC; plus Shrub's cabinet applying fox and henhouse with treasury and other financial agencies, and a Bush Pioneer owning Riggs) and Saudi's in these associations, not to mention its base being in Florida. I think something is brewing, or maybe would be brewing if this wasn't so complicated to investigate for an actual journalist, perceived as too complicated or boring to present to the public, or Congress really gave a shit.

Not even getting into how money that passes through some of these probably continues to fund black ops, coups, mercs, and all that good old stuff from the BCCI, Iran/Contra days. And the sub threads of gold and diamonds that Bush Sr. likes so much. Not to mention Iraq money is tied in here somewhere--read something about that. Or what the heck is going on with Russia's banks and oil. And what bank(s) does the Halliburton bribe money call home?

Way too much for me to piece together--and they count on that, don't they? So many scandals to track, so many interconnections in the scandals. The ever present labeling of being a conspiracy nut when you do put something together. This stuff is complicated, and complicated on purpose. Is it even possible to "follow the money" today? Was Plame trying to?

Trivia: Thats Riggs behind the Treasury on the old 10-spot:



(On the front, of course, is Hamilton, shot by power hungry former VP Burr in a duel traced to a contentious election of Jefferson. Sounds familiar.)

------

Unrelated:

I don't think I saw Plame's front company has been mentioned in these threads so far. Remember Novak also outted themBrewster Jennings & Associates. For one, whos inside joke was that? Standard Oil, right? Does that hint at something she was after? Was that cover to make her look legit to Saudis? Were other people using that front? Likely we will never know, unless that is a separate crime, which it must be, more so if other assets were exposed.

Mayber not much of a front:
http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2003/10/1... /

And lastly, I still wonder about that guy who jumped off the roof of Foggy Bottom not all that long after Plamegate started, wasnt it? He worked in the State Depts Intelligence and Research Bureautheir internal intel, most analysts. INR wrote the dissenting section, the footnote as Condi famously called it, about the yellowcake in the Nation Intelligence Estimate (NIE) that the State of the Union was based on. The footnote that was ignored. I dont know how the hell somebody suspiciously jumps/is pushed off the locked roof of the State Dept. and it stays so buried unless it is some national security thing at the highest level. Is it related? Guys name was Kokal. Never got an obit. Did they find his shoes?


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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #134
144. The trail to BCCI may start with Castle Bank
I did some quick research on the precursors of BCCI a few weeks ago, while involved in a thread on the global drug trade and money laundering. Much of that thread is relevant to the topics discussed here -- it can be found at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I found that the drug/smuggling money laundering trail seemed to start with the CIA-related activities of Castle Bank in the 1950's. A page at http://www.cyphernet.org/cyphernomicon/chapter16/16.14.... suggests that these sorts of activities go back to the World War II alliance between the OSS and the Mafia. It says of Castle Bank:

+ Castle Bank, Bahamas, Paul E. Helliwell

+ OSS (China). CIA
- Mitch WerBell, White Russian specialist in assassination, silencers, worked for him in China
- Howard Hunt worked for him
- after WW2, set up Sea Supply Inc., CIA front in Miami

+ linked to Resorts International
- law firm of Helliwell, Melrose and DeWolf
- lent money to Bahamian P.M. Lynden Pindling in exchange for extension of gambling license

+ Robert Vesco, Bebe Rebozo, and Howard Hughes
- in contrast to the "Eastern Establishment," these were Nixon's insiders
- links with ex-CIA agent Robert Maheu (who worked for Hughes); involved with Trafficante, CIA plot to kill Castro, and possible links to JFK assassination
- Vesco active in drug trade

+ also involved in purchase of land for Walt Disney World
- 27,000 acres near Orlando
- Castle Bank was a CIA conduit


There's a lot more on Castle if you look around. I haven't done the research in depth myself (and it's too late to start tonight), but here are some promising links:

http://www.missouri.edu/~quinnl/news/octopus.html
http://www.meta-religion.com/Secret_societies/Conspirac...
http://www.copvcia.com/ftw/free/ciadrugs/part_2.html
http://www.umsl.edu/~skthoma/mah7.htm
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #144
154. some great resources!
Thanks, lots of reading ahead. I think we'll find if we truly understand BCCI the same thing by essentially the same people is going on today.

They probably think they are better at it, but it seems the climate from both 9/11 and Enron being busted have made the loopholes they exploit harder to utilize. For certain, whoever strengthened, via a section in the Patriot Act, the 'know your customer' (BSA) regs and reporting must have fallen off the reservation and onto the BFEE shit list. Seems to be no problem with getting funny money out of the country (drug trade helps with that for one thing). Maybe now it's getting harder to get questionable foreign bucks into the country. That's how Riggs got into its problems--there will be more, especially if we get actual indictments and things start to unravel. The Halliburton trial in France is something I'd like to find and read first hand too (and why France? Bet it has something to do with competition (ELF) in Nigeria, elsewhere in Africa, and also Iraq).

Watch for a new bank in Iraq, opening for bizness real soon (Bush's Commerce and Credit of Iraq?).

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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #144
192. I've just read the first of these links -- and it's blowing my mind
Edited on Fri Jul-09-04 07:52 PM by starroute
Finally, everything that was weird and unexplained about the world when I was growing up in the 1950's and 1960's is starting to fit together and make sense.

Whoever wrote the page at http://www.missouri.edu/~quinnl/news/octopus.html believes firmly in the existence of the "Octopus" -- this is how it starts out:

"The Octopus is a term coined by an investigative journalist to describe a tiny clique of people operating at the nefarious intersection of drug trafficking, arms dealing, covert military operations, intelligence, high finance, organized crime, diplomacy and the media. ... This small group has acheived a power vastly disproportional to their numbers by their highjacking of the national security state apparatus which they use to mask criminal and unconstitutional activities, including flooding America with heroin and cocaine.

"Many of the very people who controlled the Octopus during the 1970s and 1980s, many of whom were cited (and convicted) in the Iran-Contra scandal, have returned to government as members of the administration installed by judicial coup d'etat in 2000. They could very well be continuing their operations in much the same manner as they did over the last three decades. If so, they remain a clear and present danger to democracy, prosperity, security, the environment, the rule of law, the integrity of the social fabric and the ongoing evolution of consciousness. They may very well wind up dragging America to the deepest reaches of a hell of its own making."

Here's a summaryof the main points in the story it tells:

As prohibition came to an end in the 1930's, the Mob in the US started to get into drugs instead, in cooperation with the Shanghai heroin cartel. Mussolini had thoroughly disrupted the traditional opium and heroin trade routes, but the US would help put them back in place during World War II, when the OSS allied with the Mafia to patrol the docks against sabotage and to help with the invasion of Sicily. After the war, the Mafia helped destroy the socialist trade unions in Marseilles, and this made it possible for Marseilles to become a major transshipment point for heroin from Iran and Turkey, with Havana as a secondary transshipment point for the US market.

Meanwhile, the Communists had taken over China from the Nationalists, the remains of whose army fled to Burma. The Chinese drug lords were kicked out at the same time and wound up in the Golden Triangle area of Burma, Laos, and Thailand. As a result, the CIA became deeply involved with both the drug trade and arms shipments in Southeast Asia. This was done under the direction of Paul Helliwell, who had been OSS chief of intelligence in China during the war. Then, in the course of the 50's, the CIA moved away from its Chinese associates and in their place assumed the military and drug-running roles of the French in Indo-China.

When Castro overthrew Batista in 1959, a three-way alliance of the Mob, the CIA, and right-wing Cubans dedicated itself to taking the country back -- and Paul Helliwell became paymaster for the Bay of Pigs invasion in 1961. Having settled in Miami, Halliwell established Castle Bank in the Bahamas as a conduit for laundering the profits from the Asian heroin trade -- much of which served to finance the CIA's anti-Castro's activities. This same pattern of drug profits going to finance covert military and intelligence operations soon came to characterize the Vietnam War as well.

The usefulness of Castle Bank had worn thin by the 1970's -- largely because of it's over-obvious ties to the Mob -- so the Nugan Hand Bank was established in Australia in 1973 to take its place:

"With the election of Jimmy Carter, the mercenary faction within the American intelligence and covert military communities became even greedier and abandoned any pretense of aligning their entrepreneurial goals with American foreign policy interests. They would, however, continue to hide behind claims of 'national security' and 'protection of sources and methods' to shield disclosure of their wrongdoing.

"They were led by former CIA clandestine services chief Theodore Shackley, CIA operative Thomas Clines and Golden Triangle drug lords like Vang Pao (who managed production), current Assistant Secretary of State Richard Armitage (who managed transit through Thailand as an embassy employee, with the assistance of national police chief and CIA asset General Phao) and heir to Luciano's heroin network, Florida Mob boss Santos Trafficante, Jr. (who managed stateside sales)."

(Yes, this is the same Richard Armitage who is now being touted as the likeliest successor to Tenet as head of the CIA. Don't it just give you the warm fuzzies?)

Nugan Hand collapsed spectacularly in 1980 and was succeeded by the Hawaiian investment firm of Bishop, Baldwin, Rewald, Dillingham and Wong, which itself collapsed in 1983 and was succeeded by BCCI. By this point, the operation was growing ever more ambitious and branching out into high-level wheeling-dealing and influence peddling. It was associated with all the more dubious events of the 1980's, from Iran-Contra to the cocaine epidemic to the S&L scandals.

The article kinds of trails off at that point, and it isn't the whole story by any means -- there's more at those other links. But I need to take a break and refresh my palate before continuing this particular trip through Hell.

On edit: One thought that occurs to me is that it would explain a lot if the article is correct in asserting that all this drugs/guns/money laundering business became essentially a rogue operation after 1976. Do people like Valerie Plame and Sibel Edmonds represent a "good" face of the CIA and the FBI, which is loyal to America and to the goals of insuring peace and freedom in the world? And are they locked in a death struggle with the evil renegades? (Sorry to go all Saturday morning serial on you, but that's how it's starting to look. Stay tuned for the next thrilling episode ...)
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #192
209. Not much else in the other three links I gave
One is a Greg Palast piece about the surprising role of insurance agencies in intelligence gathering and money laundering. The other two mention Castle Bank only in connection with MK-ULTRA and CIA sponsorship of LSD distribution in the 1960's.

I may try to dig out more -- but what I'm mainly curious about at this point is how the oil industry connects up with drug-running/money-laundering/arms-trading. The two things seem to proceed on largely separate tracks except where the Bushes are concerned.
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #209
236. bribes is part of it
Although those are often on the books on the bribing end, remarkably enough. The receiving dictator needs to hide that (launder that) from his people. Likewise and bigger, siphoning off the profits creates some need for cleansing.

That's what Equatorial Guinea got caught doing at Riggs. Money in from oil co's, not reported back to the country, converted into real estate here and elsewhere.

One thing our domestic money laundering bankers are resisting are regs about reporting foreigner's holdings back to their countries--even though the IRS has increased demands of foreign countries to report back on US citizens. Florida could lose billions upon billions in of deposits if that reporting were to start. Fairly certain I read that it was Jeb working to make sure that doesn't happen.

Although the bribes are small in comparison to the enormous movement of money under various tables (as you pointed out elsewhere in this thread)--they are priming the pump for the whole operation. What's getting Cheney/Halliburtron in the spotlight is not that they offered bribes (that's a gray area in being criminal in terms of a US company) but that they were trading with banned countries. So we get to shine some light on that gray area for a change, see how it works.

The drug trade is cash, $100 bills floating all over the place. That's certainly different than the oil money (except maybe on some bribes and paying mercs).

I mainly got caught up just reading some of the linked DU threads you had (and linked thread from there) so far. We have some of the best info here, really. Thing is so damned complicated--still need to make a chart or a timeline or something. Some of threads had stuff in them I was researching a couple of months back which I had forgotten about (names) in this seemingly never ending scandal overload. Yeah, November.

Back at, probably in Thread #5, late today!






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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #192
214. Another important piece on the CIA and drug trafficking
Edited on Fri Jul-09-04 11:33 PM by starroute
It's an interview from 1991 with Alfred McCoy, author of "The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity In The Global Drug Trade." Here's one interesting point it makes:

"What is the institutional relationship between the DEA and the CIA? The Federal Bureau of Narcotics was established in 1930 as an instrument of the prohibition of narcotics, the only United States agency that had a covert action capacity with agents working undercover before World War II. During the war when the OSS {Office of Strategic Services} was established, which is the forerunner of the CIA, key personnel were transferred from the Federal Bureau of Narcotics to train the OSS officers in the clandestine arts."

And here's another:

"In 1979 Pakistan had a small localized opium trade and produced no heroin whatsoever. Yet by 1981, according to U.S. Attorney General William French Smith, Pakistan had emerged as the world's leading supplier of heroin. It became the supplier of 60% of U.S. heroin supply and it captured a comparable section of the European market.

<snip>

"Who were the manufacturers? They were all either military factions connected with Pakistan intelligence, CIA allies, or Afghan resistance groups connected with the CIA and Pakistan intelligence. In May of 1990, ten years after this began, the Washington Post finally ran a front page story saying high U.S. officials admit that Gulbuddin Hekmatyar {leader of the Hezbi-i Islami guerilla group}, and other leaders of the Afghan resistance are leading heroin manufacturers."


(Hekmatyar, who was premier for a while in the early 90's, was originally a CIA creation. However, the US tried to kill him two years ago, and ever since then he's been calling for holy war at regular intervals and is now said to be allied with the Taliban.)


Finally, it goes into a fair amount of detail about the sequence of Castle Bank, Nugan Hand, and BCCI. And it points out:

"There's one rather large question that nobody is asking about BCCI. It's a Pakistani bank, it booms during the 1980's, in exactly the same period that Pakistan emerges as the world's largest heroin center. We know the Pakistan military officers involved in the drug trade had their accounts with BCCI. ... In fact the boom in the Pakistan drug trade was financed by BCCI. The interrelationship between the Afghan resistance and the CIA and the Pakistan drug trade can all be seen through the medium of BCCI, the banker to both operations, the resistance and the drug trade."


Where BCCI is concerned, most of the emphasis has been on the Saudi role, because of figures like bin Mahfouz. But clearly Pakistan, and the humongous amounts of drug money sloshing around in Pakistan, were just as important. Those two countries are at the heart of most of what ails the US today -- and it all goes back to the disastrous CIA intervention of 1979-81.

On edit: Forget the link. It's actually in a lot of places -- here's one -- http://pdr.autono.net/mccoy.htm
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Lestatdelc Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #46
138. BlueHill..?
The same people who had the "Bush is wandering the halls cray" nonsense...?

or are you referring to something else..?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #138
149. Lesta, sorry - CapitolHillBlue.com - yes, they've been pretty
accurate.

Bush wandering the halls saying "Pluck em all" just as Baker III did
in 92...highly believable.

Must have gotten the heads up a week or two ago that his best friend was being indicted....that French indicting Cheney....cause of Cheney's nasty outburst... yup highly believable.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
68. The Plame indictments will come down
right after CIA Director George Tenant's resignation becomes effective, Sunday, July 11, 2004.

I look for the indictments to come on Monday or Tuesday.

Willing to wager an imaginary organic whole-wheat, BST-free whipped-cream-filled, maple-frosted doughnut on INDICTMENTS early next week. And an imaginary cup of Pinon Blend High Desert Supremo Roastaroma coffee to wash it down.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. You could very well be right
What makes you so confident?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #68
111. I'll take bet...it'll be later, they have to dot i's and t's - no possible
errors, this is too big and he's too powerful. Tenet may not talk
to them untilafter the resignation is effective. He wouldn't take the chance on not fulfilling technicalities I don't think.

Personally I like creme brulee coffee. Got any artichoke cappellini?

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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
71. Just joining - important questions & wild theories of the future.
I've spent the last couple days reading all four threads at work. Unbelievable! In my short time here at DU, this truly is the Mother Of All Threads and H2O, if you want to help turn this into a book, I'll be glad to buy multiple copies to give out to friends. This is like All The President's Men and On the Trail of the Assassins. I'll be sticking with this until the hopefully triumphant end.

Now that I'm up to speed with everything, I have some questions that I haven't seen asked yet, and some theories that I would love your opinions of. My first question is for anyone who has read Woodward's new book Plan of Attack. Supposedly, Tenet is quoted as referring to the case for Saddam's WMD stockpiles as a "slam dunk". Did Woodward hear Tenet actually say this, or does he have "sources" saying that Tenet said this? Does he name his sources? It just stinks with the Bush misadministration so desperate to lay this whole mess at the feet of the CIA.

Second, someone in the first or second thread wrote about the BFEE "letting" Clinton have one term to fix the economy, then going into full-fledged impeachment attack when he rode over Dole in 96. Is it possible that they may try that with Kerry, have him fix the deficit and then try to railroad him out to make way for Jebbie in 2008? Sorry I can't remember the original poster.

Third, dealing directly with Valerie Plame and the Time article H2O quoted from regarding her "sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components". This theory may be a bit simple-minded but is it possible that this was a "sting operation" against the Pentagon trying to plant WMD in Iraq to prove justification for war? Once it was apparent with the absence of WMD used when the ground war began that Saddam had no stockpile, perhaps the Pentagon or OSP or someone in the BFEE put a plan in place to plant WMD and Pavitt had Plame heading up a "sting operation" to stop it.

BTW, when does Pavitt's resignation take effect? I know Tenet's takes effect Sunday, but not sure about Pavitt.

Finally, regarding Bush/Cheney possible resignation, H2O predicts (and D'Amato) predict a Powell replacement. Forgive me, about to get really tin-foily, but what if there is no election? If they are forced to resign before Diebold or MIHOP/WMD/martial law takes effect, I don't think they would want Powell in power. My scary prediction: President James Baker. And on the subject of martial law, how many contracting companies and contractors (mercenaries) are there? Someone on I think the third thread talked about mercenaries like the Brownshirts at Blackwater being used to enforce martial law. Is this nightmare scenario really possible?

I'm so glad to be joining this program in progress. I've got champagne chilling for July 14. It's going to be amazing watching this all unfold!
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #71
78. The one that will be writing the sequel to his first book is Joe Wilson...
He has the skinny from the inside out...

With an explosive revealing book like this...you would have to be able to stand up to talk show scrutiny, pundit pap...and the books contents would have to be ok'd by the CIA...An arduous undertaking to be sure.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #78
85. Wilson's book isn't the one with Tenet's "slam dunk" quote is it?
I was sure it was Woodward.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #85
94. Yup, it was Woodward..
Tenet said it after:

" the president kind of, as he's inclined to do, says, 'Nice try,' but that isn't going to sell Joe Public. That isn't going to convince Joe Public."

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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #94
98. Do you know if Woodward heard it firsthand?
Or is Bush his source for Tenet's quote?

Damn, I've got to log off. I'll try getting back to this thread later tonight.

Oh, and for anyone who wants the link to the Time quotes about Plame's "sting operation", I hope this works:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,11010...
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #98
118. Tenet wouldn't confirm or deny that he'd said it
So we only have Woodward's recitation of (most likely) Bush's story. And, um...fool me once, etc.

There's a link in this entry at Poor Man to a Time story that requires subscription at this point-

snip>
So, we don't know that George Tenet told George Bush that the case was a "slam dunk". It may well be true, but it is not a "fact", it is an "unsourced allegation". We know that someone told Woodward that Tenet said that. Tenet himself has refused to confirm (or deny) this story. He's been good about falling on his sword for Bush while he worked for him (as was Richard Clarke). Let's see how he answers that question now, without any professional obligations.

http://www.thepoorman.net/archives/002671.html
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #78
115. Hell, Tom Clancy could use all of this for his novels without
the exact evidence and proof. Odd thing about his books.
They seem precognitive. Unless certain people read his books
and then put them into action.
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #71
89. Baker was born in 1930, so he's a bit old for the gig
I've been trying to figure out a likely scenario for how things might go, and none of them seems totally convincing. If they really are pulling an Agnew on Cheney and mean to get him out before Bush crumbles completely, they'll need someone as bland and uncontroversial as Jerry Ford to complete the picture.

But Powell doesn't really fit the role of interim VP. For one thing, he's not going to be able to appeal to the Southern racist vote that Bush is so visibly wooing with that "I share your values" line. Powell is also compromised by having been a part of the administration (and lied for them at the UN) at the same time that he's undermined by their obvious contempt for him. I think his ritual humiliation in the recent "YMCA" incident may have taken him decisively out of the running.

McCain seems more likely, since people trust him and he is currently being built up ("McCain and kittens") just as Powell is being torn down. But if McCain really is an honest man, as he seems to be, what happens when he gets access to all the dirty secrets and decides to go public? (Jerry Ford had already proven his willingness not to rock the boat by his loyal service on the Warren Commission. McCain has no such credentials.)

Add in the fact that Congress goes to summer recess a couple of weeks from now and doesn't return until early September. That suggests there's no way they could push through a vice-presidential appointment before the Republican convention. (Jerry Ford's confirmation took six weeks.)

I really don't see *any* good options for the Republicans at this point.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #89
102. Will Frist or DeLay be the new Gerald Ford?
If they have to bow out, wouldn't they get someone they can trust to further the PNAC agenda? I'm not sure if McCain would be the man to do that. I agree with you, no good options for Republicans other than creating a Reichstag Fire to cancel the election. But that would be suicide in the long run. I hope.
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hedda_foil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #102
131. Hastert=Ford.
We all know that Hastert is DeLay's puppet and as corrupt as any of them, but he comes across a Jerry Ford personified. Hastert's even next in line, so it's a "slam dunk" as someone said to Woodward.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #89
119. Rudy Giuliani
it's Hastert in line although DeLay tried to have it changed to himself in line of succession. Didn't work. Anyway DeLay is under investigation for financial improprieties in Texas, so that may take care of that.

Someone honest in the DOJ has been very quietyly busy, cause you can bet asscroft did not send out these people.

Hastert is a party man. Nasty piece of work and he'll try to continue
this party line. I dont think he's a neo con

If they get rid of darth vader, dumson gets to pick who he wants to be veep. McCain may look like a sweety but he really is a real conservative republican, anti abortion, anti everything, and not that much of a maverick.

Rudy Giuliani. Look to Rudy Giuliani. Dimson needs someone smart and
authoritarian around him. To administrate. To tell him what to do.
Rudy. Another piece of work. I liked him better when he was a
democrat.

You know, whoever said Baker III could be right. He knows the plan, he's in control of the whole thing. He's substitute daddy to dimson.
It could be.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #71
117. RobertPaulsen - excellent post, I can answer 1 question, maybe some others
will take the rest.It might do if you posted each separately.

I just learned something from you. I didnt know about Blackwater
rumor enforcing martial law at home.

I saw an example of martial law in this country already and wrote about it. It was horrifying- hope you saw it but if not I'll link
it



You asked:Second, someone in the first or second thread wrote about the BFEE "letting" Clinton have one term to fix the economy, then going into full-fledged impeachment attack when he rode over Dole in 96. Is it possible that they may try that with Kerry, have him fix the deficit and then try to railroad him out to make way for Jebbie in 2008? Sorry I can't remember the original poster."

"They " the Scaife-Mellon, Federalists, Heritage, Laurence Silberman,
STrom Thurmond, backers of dimson family did not wait for Clinton's second term to attack. They attacked him from the moment of his administration. He interfered with their plans which have been put into action in 2000...

They never expected Clinton to be elected. It was a complete fluke and
He interfered, got in the way of their plans which have been executed beginning with the 2000 term. They never expected him to balance the budget either, that was just a bonus for them, more money to raid from the treasury and return to what they feeel are the rightful original owners who FDR screwed by instituting taxes, the Mayflower crowd, oil, banks, etc.

The PNAC plan was originally presented to the pappy in 1992, if you remember he kept speaking about the "New World Order". But he felt the American people wouldn't be ready for it.

So Cheney formed the American Enterprise Institute and/or its pre-cursor and Kristol and Jeb and a number of others signed onto the PNAC white paper and sent it to Clinton demanding he attack Iraq. Nope, it didn;t work. ( I forget whether they did that in 96 or 98,
so they thought they would get him impeached for anything and began
serious harassment of him...subpoenas etc.)

In essence, Clinton got in their way, they thought they's get him impeached and move on with their plan to rule the world, he delayed it
by 8 years.


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Lestatdelc Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #117
140. You are being generious
The Scaife funded attack machine started on Clinton when he was still in the primaries. It became a cottage industry of Scaife funded smear groups and publications by the time he was sworn in, and continues to this day (even after he left office).
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #117
233. Thanks Pallas180, great answer to that question.
I will take your advice and post the other questions separately to try to get responses. I suppose in my excitement of reading all these threads I was hasty and crammed a lot into one post. I'm at home and on dial-up as slow as molasses in January, but when I go to work Sunday, I'll try to find that post about mercenaries enforcing martial law.

Were you the one who wrote about the 25,000 police descending on a small Carolina town at the outskirts of, I think it was the G-8 convention? Your link doesn't work, but if that was the post I have to tell you that was one of the most amazing posts I ever read! Seriously, I was gasping as I was reading and I showed a couple co-workers who were equally aghast. Have you tried to publish your account, because if you haven't you should, it reads like a cliffhanger. It was suspenseful and extremely scary and it doesn't surprise me at all that the media just looked the other way.

Regarding my Clinton question that you answered, I totally agree with you, the VRWC was out to get him from the beginning. The PNAC may not have been an existing entity at the time, but their statement of purpose had already been crafted by Wolfowitz as early as 1992. It is the written documentation of the New World Order and the Bush Doctrine is the physical manifestation of it. The mindset being that now that we are the world's only nuclear Superpower, what's the point of containment? That's so 20th century! Which was complete anathema to Clinton, which was why he was complete anathema to the VRWC. That explains everything from Gennifer Flowers to Clinton wrecking and stealing furniture as dimson entered the White House. As you put it, he "got in their way". As it is, with both legislative and judicial branches of our government (as well as the media) in a complete Republican stranglehold, it will probably be even more difficult for Kerry to clean up the mess. As bad as the things are now, it is nothing compared to the prospect of Jebbie riding in 2008 to try to restore "order". Dimson is Fredo compared to Jebbie's Michael Corleone. If Diebold is still a functioning company in 2008, say good night, America! It was 232 great years.

My computer keeps crashing, so I don't know if this will post this Friday night, but I'm looking forward to sticking with this thread and hopefully learning something new everyday. Talk to you Sunday!
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
76. LA Times: Tenet Urges CIA to Resist Unnecessary Changes
Here's some interesting stuff:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-070804...

Tenet Urges CIA to Resist Unnecessary Changes
CIA Director George J. Tenet delivered a farewell address to agency employees today, saying they were duty-bound to reject unwelcome incursions by outsiders.
By Greg Miller
Times Staff Writer

4:17 PM PDT, July 8, 2004

WASHINGTON At a time when U.S. intelligence failures have prompted calls for sweeping reform, outgoing CIA Director George J. Tenet delivered a farewell address to agency employees today, urging them to resist changes they deem unnecessary or unwelcome.

Striking a defiant tone just days before he is scheduled to step down, Tenet told a gathering of more than 1,000 CIA employees that they were the "owners" of the agency and were duty-bound to reject unwelcome incursions by outsiders.

"If people want to take us back in the wrong direction, then it is your voices that must be raised to say, 'We know better and we will not stand for it,'" Tenet said.

"This institution is your own," he said. "We who serve as your leaders are stewards for limited periods of time."

Tenet's remarks amounted to a parting shot just one day before the scheduled release of a Senate report on intelligence failures that is said to be scathing in its criticism of the CIA, and to call for an overhaul of the way the U.S. intelligence community is run.

(much more)
***
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. when he says "take us back in the wrong direction", who is that
aimed at? it sounds like its aimed at those who will call for reform (not *) because of the blame being heaped on them and all the reports coming out

as if the direction they are and have been going in under * is where they want to keep going...
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. Or is it Congress that he is railing against?
I doubt that the CIA feels threatened by Kerry.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. I think he is speaking of BushI
BushI is a former Director and Chief of the CIA agency..
The agency has been left wide open for a (hostile) takeover..
may not be grammatically correct...but anything other than the best interests of national security would be considered, imo- a hostile take over..if the wrong people start changing the direction of the agency.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. It seems the CIA was infiltrated with moles..
not really a fair assumption to condemn the entire agency for being misled.

Operatives were there deliberately to distort information to arrive at desired conclusions for who? Is the next question..
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. My guess is Cheney.
Wasn't he the one checking up on their work in the build-up to war in Iraq? Pressuring them to come up with conclusions pleasing to his PNAC cohorts? I'm sure it was him.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. My guess is the PNAC group..
everyone has a job..they arrive at decisions at their board meetings, then delegate the authority.

So when you're looking to point a finger at one person, there are a host of people standing behind that one person that had been delegated to perform the act. Look deeper and put the champagne on hold until 2005
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #87
92. Do you think Cheney is going down?
I agree with you, it is definitely PNAC fucking with CIA. But surely the PNAC do not want to lose their stranglehold on the executive office. Who would they get to replace him? Or will they fight tooth and nail to keep him there?
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #92
96. I think if you get more info under your belt
and not ask for predictions in such hyperbolic terms constituting absolutes you might rest easier..at this stage of the game...nothing comes with a 100% guarantee..but thats life.

We can only hope eventually the 'good guys' will prevail and work objectively towards that end.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #87
99. no, no, no! Are you saying that this won't break before the election?
Boo-hoo! Say it ain't so!
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #99
120. Arb - it will break before the election. I think the true patriots
in DOJ and media are working away to break it BEFORE the elections
so that they can clean out some of the nest, further embarass the
boy who would be king, and give the American people who don't get it
a good view.

Bless em.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #120
155. I sure hope so!
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
82. Jim Lehrer--not earth shattering, but interesting, here is what I remember
1) NYT Adam Liptak said that "70 minutes is a lot" of time to question the president. So * had information that at the very least was "of interest" to the Grand Jury.
2) No mention of how long Cheney was questioned -- wonder why?
3) Wash. Post reporter has already testified, and they saved the journalists for last -- which means they are done gathering evidence, or this is the last bit of evidence they need before finalizing the investigation. The NYT and other news organizations are going to fight subpoenas, but they are going to lose -- they face an "uphill battle." Ultimately they will be made to testify before the Grand Jury.
4) McLellan and others in the * administration have already testified.

The issue on this show was basically, can the journalists be forced to reveal their sources? The answer: YES.

If they can force NYT to reveal their source they can force Novak. Liptak did make a point of saying that Novak should be forced to testify also.

But I think they must already have a decent case without the journalists. The journalists testifying is merely the icing on the cake.

Not time to open the champagne, but put in on ice!

Here comes the judge!!!
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #82
91. Also: Some in the WH signed releases allowing journalists to talk
Libby's name has been frequently mentioned. Probably Libby released Liptak to talk, possibly because he has nothing to hide.

Now it's up to the judge. Top lawyers presented cases today (WHO are they? Fitz and who else?). Judge will probably need several weeks to digest the info and render a decision.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. yeah, the "several weeks" part was what I didn't want to hear
I thought they would release the report on 7/14, just like H2O Man said. But according to Liptak, no.

Maybe that was just Liptak's opinion. SOMETHING is supposed to happen 7/14. Where is H2O when we really need him?

I think it is interesting, and it surprised me greatly, that they can force a journalist to give up his source. But when the charges are this serious, and the case is before a GJ, they can do it. And it looks as if they will.

Wilson will see Novak "frog-marched" after all!! Yippee!!
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. It's Rove that Wilson wants frog-marched
Edited on Thu Jul-08-04 07:47 PM by Stephanie


for starters...
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #97
100. Thanks, Stephanie for the updates.... you're a dear..
and I'm sorry I missed the auction yesterday..

That was a grand idea as a DU Kerry Fundraiser..

very ingenious! :)
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #97
101. well that is certainly a better scenario. Novak will have to give up his
source, and the source is . . . . .

WHO?
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #95
169. journalists giving up sources..
I always thought there was something slightly different about this case, and journalists giving up their sources on an anonymous "leak" about a crime.

If someone leaks to a reporter: "John Doe committed a crime", the reporter is not obligated to reveal the source.

But this case is different because: the leak was the crime.

Doesn't that render the traditional "journalistic protections" moot?

If someone leaked "Here are exact war plans for our attack on country Z" and then novak publishes it... that leak itself is treason, and of course he should be compelled to release his source (not to mention he should have had the sense not to publish.. etc).

thoughts?
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #169
186. If I understood the NYT attorney (Liptak) correctly,
Edited on Fri Jul-09-04 05:12 PM by arbustochupa
That is certainly the case here. Because the leak was the crime, the GJ will make the journalists give up their source. But I also think Liptak said that at the federal level there are "very weak" protections (no "shield" law) for journalists. The Supreme Court can compel the journalists to give up their confidential sources, BECAUSE the laws are different at the federal level. This case is unique because there is a double-whammy against the arguments that a journalist would normally utilize to protect their sources.

Because of this Liptak did not think the journalists would be successful in trying to protect their sources.

I've been waiting for them to come out with a transcript but they haven't so far. When they do we can pick it apart. I may have misunderstood what Liptak was saying but I don't think so.

I think he also said that since they had interviewed *, that they must be wrapping up their case, since they would have saved him for last. The only hold-up now, is this case against the NYT and Time.



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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #186
191. PBS NewsHour - Liptak transcript
Edited on Fri Jul-09-04 07:08 PM by TacticalPeak
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/media/july-dec04/plame_0...

snip

ADAM LIPTAK: It almost certainly means that. You're not going to take up the president's time until you're finishing up the case.

It's interesting, though: 70 minutes is a long time. The president hiring a private lawyer is an unusual move. It does seem -- while no one thinks the president himself picked up the phone to Mr. Novak -- that the president may well have information interesting to prosecutors. That's not to say that it's information that points towards anyone's guilt, but certainly 70 minutes is a lot of questions.

RAY SUAREZ: In the way that grand juries work, would the president have had to have been mentioned by other people who had already testified for him to be brought in by the U.S. attorney?

ADAM LIPTAK: The U.S. attorney could have learned of the president's having information in various ways, although it wouldn't surprise me at all if it came up during grand jury testimony.

snip (emphasis added)

:)


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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #91
193. Transcript: The Leak Investigation 7/8/04 Jim Lehrer New Hour
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/media/july-dec04/plame_0...
Excerpt:
ADAM LIPTAK: Reporters like to think that we have that privilege, but the sad fact, particularly in the federal courts, is that it's quite limited. The Supreme Court has never endorsed a reporter's privilege based on the First Amendment or the common law, and Congress has not seen fit to pass a shield law.

So in the federal courts we have very weak protections, and these reporters are facing an uphill fight.
RAY SUAREZ: Have reporters in other cases been successful in staying out of the grand jury chamber?

ADAM LIPTAK: They have, and there are arguments available, but in this situation those arguments are probably at their weakest. The main arguments reporters make are either that the information they have is not central to the case, and here who did the leaking is the essential question in the grand jury's investigation.

The other argument that reporters typically make, and courts like this one, is "please ask me last," exhaust all possible alternative sources, talk to everyone before you talk to a reporter.

Here again, though, from the looks of it -- and the information is limited because it's a grand jury proceeding in secret -- from the looks of it, this has been an extensive and thorough investigation, including interviews with the vice president and president. So, this notion that the reporters should be asked last is a good theory, but here they may indeed be being asked last.

RAY SUAREZ: It's been widely published that the source that let Glenn Kessler off the hook is a pretty important person in the White House.

ADAM LIPTAK: It's said to be Lewis Libby on the vice president's staff. His name has come up over and over again. It's not clear, though, and in The Washington Post reporting, there was a suggestion that what they had to tell prosecutors was tended to exonerate rather than incriminate Mr. Libby, which might be a reason that Mr. Libby indeed, not only through this form but perhaps in another way, allowed or encouraged the reporter to testify.

RAY SUAREZ: How long until we know whether this attempt to quash the subpoenas is successful and whether this is all that the U.S. Attorney Fitzgerald is going to get on this matter?

ADAM LIPTAK: Well, there are a couple of questions. One is, how long does it take to judge to decide and hear arguments from very sophisticated lawyers today. And that typically takes weeks for a judge to digest the argument and the briefs and to write a written decision. It's also not clear that that decision will be made public, again because it's a grand jury proceeding; and not clear what happens next. It may be that if the news organizations lose, they'll appeal. It may be that they'll appear before the grand jury, but decline to testify there. There are lots of steps, legal steps, procedural steps, between here and there.

The one person we haven't talked about is Robert Novak, the original publisher of Valerie Plame's name, and it's... we know a little about what The Washington Post did. We know knowing about what Mr. Novak did, which is suggestive of the fact that he probably did something. He won't have been overlooked by the prosecutors.
RAY SUAREZ: And does the fact that the president was interviewed signal that Mr. Fitzgerald's case is almost done, his part of it?
ADAM LIPTAK: It almost certainly means that. You're not going to take up the president's time until you're finishing up the case.

It's interesting, though: 70 minutes is a long time. The president hiring a private lawyer is an unusual move. It does seem -- while no one thinks the president himself picked up the phone to Mr. Novak -- that the president may well have information interesting to prosecutors. That's not to say that it's information that points towards anyone's guilt, but certainly 70 minutes is a lot of questions.

RAY SUAREZ: In the way that grand juries work, would the president have had to have been mentioned by other people who had already testified for him to be brought in by the U.S. attorney?

ADAM LIPTAK: The U.S. attorney could have learned of the president's having information in various ways, although it wouldn't surprise me at all if it came up during grand jury testimony.

RAY SUAREZ: And other leading lights of the administration have also been interviewed, also all not without taking the oath, is that correct?

ADAM LIPTAK: No, I believe that both the White House counsel Alberto Gonzales and the White House spokesman Scott McClellan actually appeared before the grand jury. And while we don't know what went on inside, it would be quite unusual for them not to be sworn in there.
I think the president and vice president were extended a courtesy of being interviewed informally.





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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #82
121. Better pray the Judge is not a cohort of Silberman or Rehnquist
cause then we're plucked.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-04 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
104. John and Teresa Kerry... Larry King LIVE now!
c-ya!
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daria_g Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
139. Halliburton selling to Iran
Here's a connection - the earlier threads noted that Valerie Plame may have been working on a sting operation which was disrupted when she was outed. I was digging around, and here is a statement (warning, link goes to a PDF file) from Sen. Frank Lautenberg on February 13, 2004:

http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/hearings/hearing12/laut...

>>>Vice President Cheney gave a speech a few weeks ago in Rome, in which he strongly chastised those who and I quote tolerate and profit from corruption and maintain ties to terrorist groups."

This line struck me as ironic, because as we have recently discovered, when Vice President Cheney was the head of Halliburton, he seems to have conducted his business in a manner that embraces all that he now criticizes. This week, my staff uncovered documents from the Department of Commerce revealing a flurry of business activities between Halliburton and the Iranian government when Vice President Cheney ran the company. The documents indicate contacts between an Iranian oil company called Kala Limited and a subsidiary of Halliburton, Halliburton Products and Services, which has offices in Dubai but is registered in the Cayman Islands. (REFER to POSTER)

These stacks of documents, which I would be happy to provide to my colleagues, seem to be part of the reason that Department of Treasury investigators recently reopened an investigation of Halliburton for evading and possibly breaking U.S. sanctions prohibiting trade
with Iran. Although the Treasury Department had investigated this allegation in the past, a new investigation was begun this month, subsequent to new revelations of Halliburtons shell games to avoid the sanctions preventing U.S. corporations from doing business with terrorist states.

In late January, the news program 60 Minutes reported that while Vice President Cheney headed Halliburton in the late 1990s, the company set up a foreign subsidiary in the Cayman Islands called Halliburton Products and Services. Although the subsidiary was wholly owned by the U.S.-based Halliburton, it was deliberately located there so that Halliburton could do business with Iran and avoid U.S. sanctions for doing so. When investigators visited the Halliburton Products and Services Company in the Cayman Islands, they found no employees, no actual office, and no real business. All they found was a mail drop that forwarded mail received there to Halliburtons headquarters in Houston.
<..>
Now, despite the possibility that Halliburton under Vice President Cheneys watch was deliberately bypassing U.S. sanction law to conduct business with the terrorist regime in Tehran, this administration, which purports to be waging a global war on terrorism, has given Halliburton contracts exceeding 9 billion dollars to rebuild Iraq.
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Lestatdelc Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #139
141. Certinaly a hand in the cookie jar
But not sure how that tracks to the Plame outting.

Unless the Haliburton subsidiary in question was dealing in technology or supplies in a weapons program I am not sure how that would tie to what Plame was doing in the CIA operations.

It is certainly a big no-no Cheney's company was engaged in (out right criminal), but it is not a given that it had anything to do with WMD.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #141
152. Lesta, in a prior post we named the equipment which was nukular
related, could be used for - forget it - I want to say firing cap,
that's how I would describe it, anyway, yes he sold Quaddaffi nukular
useful material and Halliburton was fined 1.2 million dollars while he
was CEO in 95.

So if he would sell to crazy Quaddaffi who brought down an airliner full of people, who wouldn;t he sell to?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #139
150. Makes sense. Prescott Bush illegally traded with the Nazis and made
the family fortune that way, why shouldn't his in-laws company do
the same thing. As a matter of fact the in-law Walker did if memory
serves.

someone said there are patterns, patterns that are always followed.

We have to get a bunch of republicans out of the House of Reps, otherwise this country can't move forward with justice.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
142. Is anyone gathering threads 2 &3 into a WORD doc like they did #1?
I wanted to follow this conversation, but I can't retrieve messages after they start building up. Someone, (sorry, I forget who the angel was) put all of thread 1 into a .doc after it was locked. Has anyone done the same for 2&3?

If so, could you please point me in the right direction? I was looking, but didn't find it.

Thanks! I'd sure like to be able to read it all....

Kanary
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #142
151. KANARY - go to the top of this thread.BEAM ME UP has made
thread 1, 2, and 3 into a doc.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #151
166. Thanks for replying..... I found it, and downloaded.
I appreciate the response..... I can't open large threads for some reason.

Thanks!

Kanary
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 04:17 AM
Response to Original message
153. Follow the trail of blood to the money. n/t
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nixonwasbetterthanW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
159. Ashcroft should not be held harmless in Plame probe


Ashcroft was trying to narrowly tailor any conflict-of-interest question regarding his involvement in the Plame probe to financial matters. At a certain point, however, even such a twisted, narrow view of ethical behavior was no longer palatable. His delay in shutting himself off as an information receiver is appalling.


this is what John Dean reported six months ago, regarding Deputy AG Comey's comments on the recent Ashcroft recusal. Notice the specific language about financial matters that Comey uses with respect to conflict-of-interest:

<http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20040106.html >

Not wanting to hype the situation, all Comey said was that Ashcroft withdrew because, in an "abundance of caution," he "believed that his recusal was appropriate based on the totality of the circumstances and the facts and evidence developed at this stage of the investigation." He added later in the press conference that the "recusal is not one of actual conflict of interest that arises normally when someone has a financial interest or something. The issue that he was concerned about was one of appearance."


now Murray Waas informs us that Ashcroft was receiving regular briefings about the investigation before handing it over to Fitzgerald ...

<http://www.prospect.org/web/printfriendly-view.ww?id=80 ... >

The briefings raise questions about the appropriateness of Ashcroft's involvement in the investigation, especially given his longstanding ties to Rove. Senior federal law-enforcement officials have expressed serious concerns among themselves that Ashcroft spent months overseeing the probe and receiving regular briefings regarding a criminal investigation in which the stakes were so high for the Attorney General's personal friends, political allies, and political party. One told me, "Attorneys General and U.S. Attorneys in the past traditionally recused for far less than this."

One senior federal law-enforcement official said that there appeared to be no restrictions regarding the extent of information provided Ashcroft: "Whatever the FBI knew, the Attorney General was able to know within days if he wanted to."

Rove's interview with the FBI was highly significant, sources said, in that although Rove adamantly denied having leaked the name of CIA officer Valerie Plame, he admitted to having disseminated the information -- after it appeared in the news media -- to journalists, political activists, and other administration officials in an attempt to discredit Plame's husband, former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV. At the time, Wilson was raising questions about the veracity of intelligence information used by President Bush in making the case to go to war with Iraq. Rove, through an assistant, declined to comment for this story.

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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #159
162. Because of this statement...
Edited on Fri Jul-09-04 10:04 AM by Tellurian
coming from Dean's Link:


"When the lawyer -- diGenova, Toensing, or someone else -- went to the government seeking immunity for his or her client, Ashcroft would have heard that the middle-level person was offering to finger the high-level leaker. At that point, he would have realized he himself knew the high-level leaker; and decided to recuse himself from the case, and let Fitzgerald take over."

Asscroft's desire for recusal could be interpreted as..He was already aware of the identity of the leaker. Having a witness formally tell him the identity of the leaker would put him too close to the situation possibly leading to self-incrimination on his part as withholding evidence in a criminal investigation..
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
164. afternoon kick for some great reading
Thanks to all the posters, esp H20 Man.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
167. COUP D'ETAT: The Real Reason Tenet and Pavitt Resigned
Just found this article online, don't know how I missed it before:

COUP D'ETAT: The Real Reason Tenet and Pavitt Resigned from the
CIA on June 3rd and 4th
Bush, Cheney Indictments in Plame Case Looming
by Michael C. Ruppert

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/cgi-bin/MasterPFP.cgi?...

Forgive me if this is a duplicate of an earlier post.

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LeftHander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
168. Plame update thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Says Grand Jury extended through July to allow for hearing of TIME and NBC to conclude....
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #168
176. This case has expanded....
...in ways that did not seem likely four months ago. Fitgerald is a very thorough investigator.....
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #176
180. what a tease!
I assume you mean that more people may be in trouble?

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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #176
184. Did you see the Murray Wass story yesterday in the Prospect?
The one where he had sources saying Ashcroft was briefed on details of the investigation before it was turned over to Fitzgerald? I'd love to hear what you think it means.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #176
188. Another thread posted a link re: the extension of the grand jury
Is July 14 still the day to have our champagne on ice?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #188
195. Good question......
The administration has a tough choice: try to drag it out with a series of delays based upon technicalities? or face the music? Because they know now that this is not going away.

If there is an public announcement (including a "leak") about where the case is now -- and I'm still hoping that even a part of this becomes public on Wednesday -- then we will be having a great time that evening on this thread!
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #195
200. I like the way it is heading - that Senate report released today
just confirms my suspicions that the intel group isn't going to take much more of this from the admin.

The rest of the thread has picked up on the other investigations that involve cheney, so all in all, the thread has tied it all together and the final results will be very interesting, very interesting indeed.

As always, thanks for the input (or is it imput - I can't keep it straight).
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #200
207. The democrats in the senate
who are saying that the White House needs to be held responsible for their actions know more than they can say publicly at this point. They have their own intel connections.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #207
218. Well, that makes sense. Glad the senate dems are on top of this.
Nightline just had former CIA folks saying it was Tenet's responsibility to stand up to WH and give the accurate info, despite the WH's resistance. They were blaming it on a weak director.

I do hate the mainstream media. Take the blame from the WH and put it back on Tenet.

Ultimate responsibility was WH and their insane agenda.

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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
170. does this tie into the Plame case?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040...
saw it posted in LBN, with very little comment at the time.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

:kick: back to the top.
dp
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #170
182. timing, same countries, same situation as discussed here....
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flutter by Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
179. Just kickin'
n/t :dem:
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #179
183. Hey, flutter by, welcome to DU!
Good to have you!
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flutter by Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #183
231. Glad to be here, cat...
thanks for the welcome! I've been lurking for a couple of years now but this is the thread that got me to signing up. So much here on these (so far) 4 threads, I can't help but feel that something has got to finally stick to these teflon bastards.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-04 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
224. Sen Roberts & Rockefeller on CSpan-see if Transcript cause

Rockefeller apparently is investigating and said " apparently Feith
had his own intel which was bypassing our committee and the CIA, WHICH
WOULD HAVE BEEN ILLEGAL " ----

them's pretty strong words from Rockefeller

Roberts keeps saying "read the report" no pressure, which Rockefeller
is saying there was pressure and is not in the report - that the
pressure and the administration's role will be in the second report -
not written yet.

Rockefeller also saying admin did not cooperate.

He is also saying this is the most dangerous moment in American history.




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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #224
225. It is as if people have no perception, no senses, no memory.
The January 2001 NSC meeting, with a memo on "Post-Saddam" Iraq.

Paul O'Neill revealing that they were obsessed from day one, constantly, with invading Iraq.

After 911, their begging for any info or disinfo on Iraq ties to the attack.

The remark Wesley Clark heard at the Pentagon about Saddam may as well have done 911, because we were taking him down anyway. (Not a good signal to send.)

In March 2002, aWol saying "F**k Saddam! We're taking him out", in a meeting including three Senators. How about some reporter asking those Senators to go on the record, and tell us what they think President Stupid meant by that presidential remark?

My interpretation of the "F**k Saddam!" has changed in the last few days. March 2002 would be right after Amb Wilson returned with his 'no soap' report on Niger. Shrub was expressing his frustration at Saddam not stepping out of line enough to justify his predetermined war. The Chimp-in-Chief had lost his patience with reality.


CIA? They don't need no stinking CIA.

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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #224
229. Rockerfeller said:
Rockefeller also saying admin did not cooperate.

He is also saying this is the most dangerous moment in American history.

May God keep the backs of courageous people safe!

He is right, it is the most dangerous moment. Started reading Dean's book: Worse than Watergate and Dean should know.

P.S: Went to the Kerry/Edwards Rally in Albuquerque (at least 8000): there were some Bu$h disrupters but they were not thrown out, just told to listen by Kerry. Had it been Democrats at a Bu$h deal, they would have probably been arrested. One Bu$h disrupter had been taken out (lifted off the ground and a big guy) earlier by Secret Service guys, he had really gone overboard. Seeing more and more Bu$h (brown shirt types) at protests and rallies, they are running scared and bullying people.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 03:48 AM
Response to Original message
235. This was the impetus for the Plame outting..
the target all along was Wilson. Plame was destined to be the bait. The simple fact of the matter is Bush was going to take them both "out", no matter what.

If Wilson had kept quiet and not said anything about the LIE, he would have been the scapegoat for the lie in the end. (Hold this thought)

Digressing for a moment..

I couldn't believe what I was hearing today. The media is still pushing Bush's Lie blaming bad intelligence as justification for the War. I'm not sure where Bush campaigned today. Wherever it was, he was still repeating the Lie. Contorting his face begging the audience to believe what he was telling them...

"THERE *WERE* WMD in IRAQ!"

WE, (not I) went to War with Iraq based on good/bad intelligence. (he likes using words and definitions to confuse..(ex..based on good intelligence one day.. the intelligence was bad the next day)

Now, forget that Wilson ever called Bush out.

If Wilson had *not* spoken up and revealed Bush's LIE in the SOTU Address, but instead had gone along with Bush and remained silent.

His silence would have been his undoing.

Wilson had been earmarked as Bush's exit strategy 4 yrs ago. I'll say it again in case you missed it the first time...

WILSON was what we would call in a Republican kind of way, BUSH'S EXIT STRATEGY from Iraq..a psychological exit strategy if you will.

About now,Bush would have said..Wilson betrayed our country. He was formerly the Ambassador to Iraq, a trusted diplomat. His wife a top secret CIA agent and lauded him to the hilt as trusted American. However, in short order his tone would change...to calling Wilson a betrayer of his country, a *TRAITOR*. Bush's speech would have directed anyone's anger over the War directly at Wilson. By the time Bush got through with his press briefing, Wilson would have replaced him, as the most hated man in the world.

Bush, (as he is still doing today,) is blaming bad CIA intelligence.

Watching Bush speak today, there was something missing from his spiel. Something that just rang hollow..The speech was the same ole..

I noticed he was practically turning himself inside out literally, laying over the top of the podium trying to convince his audience he was telling the Truth...what I saw lacking from his speech that would have been the lock on his speech... is PROOF!

What better PROOF could he have had if he could've pointed to Joe Wilson? And the big Plus, Joe's wife had been outed as a CIA operative. (Outing Valerie had been planned all along. The only question was when?..)

The *twofer* strikes again..Two birds with one stone.

Bush would have produced, as evidence *against* Wilson, his original report stating there were NO sales of yellow cake to Iraq. Against a document most likely forged (supposedly from Wilson) the report he used as the centerpiece for the SOTU Address, stating there was good
reason to believe yellow cake *was sold* to Iraq. (If those 16 words had gone openly Undisputed by Wilson. Bush had successfully set the TRAP..

I don't know if anyone remembers Clinton saying, Bush has no exit strategy to get out of Iraq. He said it several times months after the war began..The truth is Bush didn't want or need one. He had Wilson. The trap was set...now to reveal him as a full fledged Traitor.

Today as Bush was giving his speech he would have been pointing to Wilson as the Traitor responsible for the BAD intelligence that forced him to attack Iraq. And absolved himself completely of being responsible for the death and destruction that has followed because of the war.

(if you know anything about the story of Benedict Arnold) read the link if you don't.

By now, Wilson would be on the front pages of every newspaper in the World as the biggest Traitor to this country since the conspiracist, traitor, Benedict Arnold. And we'd all be starting threads waiting for news of a trial date. Bush didn't need or want and exit strategy for Iraq...We wanted and needed (and still needs)a fall guy to blame for the War.

The reason for the level of difficulty in putting this puzzle together is because the assumptions are wrong. Wilson changed the dynamics of the puzzle by going public..Bush never counted on Wilson writing a book either as testament to his Truth.

What if Wilson never said a word after the State of the Union Address? What if he never corrected the 16 words used to reinforce Bush's desperation to go to War? (silence is compliance)

When you revert back to the way the Bush familia planned this in the first place, then it all makes sense... The original vendetta against Wilson goes back before the 00'election. The key to this whole affair (to me) was when Wilson refused to donate to BushII's campaign...

That was when they were sure Wilson could no longer be trusted and declared him a traitor (to their camp) Wilson stated he was supporting Gore in 00 for president.. The Bushes are a vindictive bunch so they crafted a plan to make him pay, pay dearly for Wilson's betrayal by using him as the excuse for the mistake of the preemptive strike on Iraq.

They made sure to present the right opportunity to Plame, like bait on a hook, they'd slip Wilson's head into the noose.

Perfect...now Bush is off the hook!

(at least this is my take on it..)

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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #235
239. your theory makes sense, Tellurian
Wilson must have realized what they were up to and . . . refused to be their fall guy. If that was their plan, it was kinda stupid for them to think that Wilson would roll over and play dead. If they plan to ruin someone they should know that there is a darn good chance that person will figure it out and expose them. They are so hell bent on their revenge that they can't even see the whole picture.

I saw * on the telly last night too, and he was desperately trying to convince people that it was a good thing that Saddam was not in power anymore, because he was using WMD against his own people. I don't know if I saw the same broadcast that you did or not. He was very passionate in his speech, no Bushisms or slips of the tongue. He *can* talk when he wants to.

No one asked him if taking Saddam out was worth almost 900 military lives, or thousands of Iraqi citizens' lives. No one asked because anyone who might disagree with him would have been removed before the cameras started rolling. Later in the broadcast he was seen hugging a waitress in a cafe . . . She almost peed her pants, she was so excited to get a hug from the pres. You see? I'm just a warm fuzzy guy, if the CIA had given me better information, I wouldn't have needed to send all those boys off to die. None of it was my fault . . . But now that it has happened, it was a good thing. Saddam can't hurt anybody anymore. I didn't screw up, the CIA did. But even though they did, I did the right thing, because Saddam was a threat to our freedom. A warm, fuzzy, freedom loving guy like me wouldn't make a mistake like that.

That bunch cannot stand to be contradicted. If you contradict them publicly they'll take you out. No one is allowed to disagree with them, ever. Or wear T-shirts that indicate that they disagree. Even Laura Bush is not permitted to disagree with her husband. At their public appearances, protesters (or potential protesters) are dealt with pretty quickly; arrested or taken out in restraints.

The American public has been buying their story up until now. People were in shock after 9/11, and now I hope they are waking up a little.
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-04 08:29 AM
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241. Locking
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