Plame indictments.....Thread 4

Thread 3:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Ha, ha!

Easier to download--especially if you're on dialup--and faster to read off your hard drive or print out.


http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/plame-indictments01.... 05-Jul-2004 14:29 433k
http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/plame-indictments02.... 06-Jul-2004 18:11 516k
http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/plame-indictments03.... 08-Jul-2004 23:48 286k

:hopping:

As someone mentioned, they should be published.

WHEN I HAVE THE TIME -- which may take a few days -- I'll re-do them to correct all the links contained in the threads. Currently many of them are truncated due to copy and paste from the original thread text. One has to go back and re-copy each truncated link individually. Very time consuming.

BMU

Now I can actually read it alllll.........



Kanary

Required reading .... or at least it should be!

correct in assuming that we have recently seen you on a certain
news show?

Homely Videos? Or re-runs of Green Acres?

to put this here, but I don't have enough posts to private message.

I downloaded these files for easier reading and also to pass on to others, but the format is weird and I only have the titles of each post, not the substance. Any ideas?

Thanks for doing this, btw. Thanks to all for the great reading, although it's so depressing.

No one has mentioned having a problem before.

The documents are about a hundred pages long, each. Make sure when you click on the link you "save target as" to down load to your hard drive. They were created using a Macintosh, MSWord 2001, and should be compatible with Windows machines. Sorry, I don't have the answer to your question -- perhaps someone else can suggest a way to help.

BMU

I'm on a MAC also, and they downloaded automatically when I clicked, but when I open them in MS Office X, it's the list of subjects in blue and underlined, but not the actual message. I'm not computer literate enough to know what to do. But....I appreciate the amount of effort you must have put into this. Thanks.

My Mac has a load limit. If the threads were limited to 150 posts, I think MSO could accept it..anything over that is too much of a drag. scrolling takes forever..

I can do that. Let me know.

I'm ok...

and they loaded fine. One was a 163 pages. DUers are a wordy bunch!

It was a wonderful summary and very information. Welcome to DU.

last night, I hope it didn't fall throught the cracks. It is a good post and I welcome him again!

thread was locked. I too hope Lestatdelc continues to post in this new thread.

Thanks for the welcome and the compliment.

You have made yourself right at home and I am glad.

Lestatdelc (12 posts) Thu Jul-08-04 04:06 AM
Response to Original message
225. NEW here



In the first archive of this thread H20 posed the question... why Plame... why the rush for Iraq... those are related and it is via WMD, but Iraq was not invaded BECAUSE of WMDs, it was because of a LACK of WMD

Why?

Because of three things:

1) Iraq being cleared of WMD by the UNMOVIC/UNSCOM meant Desert Storm (when Saddam went off the reservation) was over and sanctions had to be lifted.

2) Iraq had European contracts for their oil.

3) Iraq was going to trade the oil in Euros not petrodollars.

Remember, Bush/Saud are the same thing. BDM/Vinnel (Carlyle at the time) arm, train, equip man what keeps Saud in power. Saudi crude funds the whole Bush/Saud crew. Iraq suddenly free again to sell its oil, and in Euros not only screws Bush/Saud, but would cripple the US economy along multiple fracture lines.

First and obviously, having the 2nd largest oil reserve of accessible crude come onto the market will drive the value of Saudi crude into the basement. That Iraq would end run the rest of OPEC to make up for a decade of being starved would scatter the cartel members into the winds to fend for themselves. So what is better, to let Iraq crude take out your own operation at the knees or take it over and roll it into the same portfolio.

Second, because Iraq was gonna devalue your own assets in the first place, doing so outside our traditional partner firms and with European (French, Russian, German) firms visions of Chinnese orders means you are not getting a swing at that crude even in the rest of the chain.

Third, and most critical (and actually more "forgivable" in a strange circumpolar way) is that trading in Euros not petrodollars collapse our capital market funding of our debt and deficits, both Governmental budget and general economic. If China (as its demand for oil goes through the roof in the next 10 years) starts trading with Iraq, and the Euro becomes the currency for oil (not to mention it is already on the edge of surpassing the dollar for capital markets anyway base don value as it is) suddenly China has no need to continue to buy our debt. It would get more of a return in Euros, plus it buys oil form Iraq in Euros, etc. etc.

The chasing after buyers for our currency to fund our deficits (trade and monetary) would mean radically raising interest rates to keep people buying it. Their goes most of our economy as the ripple of interest rates would throw us into a recession/depression. And their would be an even WORSE problem/risk then facing us as well.

If China and the capital markets STOP buying our debt, our economy falls into an economic black hole and could only emerge when China (the rest of the developing world) and the US are on economic parity. That is THE abyss for America.

China can do without the American market as it has a ready built market 5 times as large as the North American continent within its own borders. And because of outsourcing and production off-shoring of the past decade and a half (and heading into the next half) it has the manufacturing base to feed their domestic market whether those factories turn out Nikes™ for US consumption to "whatever" name to the domestic market.

Controlling the oil has been the underpinning of our ENTIRE core foreign policy since the end of WWII.

This is why we installed the Shah in 53, this is why the CIA kept the Ba'athists from going to far into Soviet procurement arms (by our kicking Saddam back into the Iraq after his first coup attempt in the 50s) even though the Ba'athists where a "nationalist" (read socialist) movement, why we have propped up Saudi Arabia from the moment the guns fell silent on WWII. This was for two (at the time coequal which became singular) reasons. keep it out of the Soviet hands, and keep it in "our" big oil hands.

OPEC in the early 70s was testing the price limit to find the outer edge.

But "our" number one client/puppet was the Shah. We sold him F-14s, something we would not even sell to our NATO allies. He had SAVK, which made Saddam's secret police seem like Haight-Ashbury. He was, like Saddam, secular which was not the case with Saud, which was religious extremists who the British put in place to take out the Turks in WWI.

So when the population got feed up, it turned to religion (since the Shah was a corrupt western secular puppet) and revolution. Students start the revolution, and the Ayatollah becomes the rallying figure. The Shah falls, flees... we (now the "Great Satan") throw our lot in with Saddam to hold the line. We sell him WMDs, intel, attack gun-ships (American made) to set-up a back-burn to stop the Islamic Revoltuon wildfire that is now burning towards the oil fields, having already lost a vast supply to the now radicalized Iranian Revolutionary Council.

Just after the USSR collapses, Saddam goes off the reservation by the sucker move that we had no position in his long-standing quest to get at Kuwaiti oil fields, stop their lateral drilling and gain port access that wasn't spitting distance from the Iranians he had been engaging in an 8 year, 1 million+ dead war with.

This is used as pretext to scare the shit out of the Saudi's with doctored intel that Saddam is amassing Republican Guards to move into Saudi Arabia, and we start building bases, and moving in 500k+ troops, and making permanent installations. All this whole time (and decades prior) been training, arming and equipping the Saudi Secret police and internal security forces as Saudi unemployment rises to 30% (remember in the US 25% was called the Great Depression).

We build Desert Shield, then execute Desert Storm, and take out the Iraqi military with a robust 3rd generation military vs. a depleted 2nd generation military, but Bush Sr. doesn't pull the trigger then on Saddam, because we are not sure of his WMD capability. We risk the entire shooting match if we turn the wrong way in the Euphrates river valley.

So we cut a deal to not go for the decapitation then and there. We impose the no-flys, insist on WMD removal through the UN, and hint that if the Iraqi's overthrew Saddam we wouldn't feel bad about Saddam going... but then... the unthinkable happened.

Bush with a 71% approval rating in less than a year loses the election and Bill Clinton and the Democrats suddenly have the keys to the White House, the first time in 12 years and first time since OPEC was brought into the fold after Carter's undoing.

Now do you see why Clinton was hunted...?

Now does trooper-gate, travel-gate, bimbo-gate, Vince Fosters murder-gate, Ron Brown murder-gate and a fucking blue dress make sense...?

This is why we are'nt leaving Iraq. Our military (from there) can lash out at the other oil producers, should they begin accepting euros for their oil, instead of dollars. Saddam went to the Euro in Nov. of 2000, I think...which sealed his fate. And that is the game, as detailed in the post I am replying to. Everyone needs dollars for their forex accounts to buy oil...and EVERYONE has to buy oil.

The only thing I might add, is I wonder if much the same isn't true of Japan and some of the other US client nations-Taiwan, South Korea. They are major consumers of dollars, and if they only accept dollars in trade, then to buy Japanese say, if you are Brazil, you would need dollars, further fueling demand for dollars. Our current Sec. of Commerce (the weasel, Don Evans) said that China represented enormous potential for monetary expansion...or something to that effect. I think this is what he meant. And of course, we have an enormous stick, seven carriers, in China's face too. All the extra oil everyone is talking about China needing, is going to be paid for by China, in dollars, or China gets no oil...see?

An example of how having the Dollar for worldwide forex benefits the US: think of the enormous trade BETWEEN Japan, China and South Korea, exclusive of the US. What if it is all done in dollars? Those dollars are off the market, as far as the US is concerned, meaning we have printed free money. They have no inflationary impact in this country. If other nations dump dollars for Euros, what happens? Inflation, like now. Some nations ARE dumping.

The Dollar/Euro conflict is the real war going on right now, the one John Kerry will need to resolve upon becoming President.

No matter which party is in power in the US, they will do whatever is necessary to keep the dollar supreme. The alternative is an economic Apocalypse for this country, and much of the rest of the world.

Russia is the key.

better value. REmember Warren Buffett saying for the first time in
his life he was betting against America and buying Euros. And when
Warren Buffett speaks......

Also the Sauds are screwing their old friends the dimson family - not really, the dimson family I'm sure is invested in Euros protecting their assetts, they would have switched over....ITS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND THIS COUNTRY THAT ARE SCREWED. he Sauds have announced they
are building oil refinery in China...meaning they're going to ship crude to China to be refined. Deal with them directly and of course so
will the Multinationals, chevron, unocal, etc etc.....pluck America, right?

Ok, you financial wizards. Will China pay Sauds and multinationals in
US dollars or in Euros? and how will that affect us.

I gather if they pay in US dollars and the Sauds are still friends with us they'll be happy to take the dollars. If they're not friends with us can they call in the note, like a betting or loan thing, and
demand we exchange the US dollars for Gold???

how is this going to work?

I think part of why they hate Clinton so badly, was that he is an Internationalist. While he was President, we witnessed the cementing of the European alliance-a potential adversary, in some peoples eyes-and worse, the advent of the Euro.

Again, what underpins (I am not saying 'backs'), but what has made the dollar valuable since Nixon took us off the gold standard, is that you can buy oil with it. And you could'nt buy oil without it. Everyone needs oil, it is always one of the largest items of forex...so most nations simply use dollars for all forex.

Except that now, the Russians are selling the EU oil for Euros...remember the French and Germans hurrying to Moscow as our army advanced through Iraq? Historically, Europeans always turn to Russia when they feel threatened...a Russian Czar liberated Paris from Napolean the first time he was defeated-rode at the head of an allied army. Of course, Russia has never been given a prominent place in histories published in America. Today, Russia is still plenty strong enough to stand against us...and they did. The French and German furor over our invasion was'nt because they are nice guys...they had oil contracts to develope fields, and all payments were being made in Euros.

Now, we have an American Army in the middle of the oil fields. Saudi Arabia is being destabilized...now I wonder who is behind all that? Is it really possible American Intelligence supports guerrila (terrorist) groups? Have we ever worked with Ben Laden before? Who flew right after 911? We know they do! The bulk of Saudi oil is in the East of the country, not that difficult to occupy, from Iraq. War is being trumped up against Iran. Should Iran go to the Euro, we (or the Israeli's) will start a war with them. We will win. The world will continue to pay for it's oil in dollars.

Here is something I think most people lose track of: Texans DON'T CARE what the price of oil is. We still pump almost half our own needs, and don't ship it nearly as far. Texans LIKE high oil prices. But. All the oil, except what Russia sells the EU, is going to continue to be paid for in dollars. Or this country will be beat on the battlefield...one of the two. Or. Kerry cuts a deal with the Europeans, and a dual 'trading band', a linkage will be set up, between, say the dollar, euro, and sterling. This is what I want...no war that way.

Or. The Malaysians are setting up a gold dinar, backed by gold, for trade between 51 Islamic nations. If the fiat currencies, EU and dollar, do not come to agreement, this dinar, which China is said to be interested in, may gain favor.

Like some have said, it may be a war on Terra. But that trading thing you mentioned, or whatever, between China and Saudi...no way. Look down at Venezuela...commodity exchanges like that, thereby avoiding the dollar, are why Chavez is in so much trouble.

H20 is correct in saying "follow the money", but the big money is the national debt we owe, which nobody else can do, because nobody else (until the Euro), has their currency tied up in everyone else's forex. Come the day those dollars are exchanged for Euros, and hit the market, we have had it. Needs to be done slowly, in agreement with the EU, to lessen damage to the world economy.

Like I said, Russia is the key. That was Bushes BIGGEST foreign policy blunder. Putin offered him longterm contracts for oil at twenty bucks a barrel, and Bush turned it down, said the Russian oil is too heavy. The Europeans took it.

not my forte'

My understanding also is that the Saudi's have trillions invested in our markets and if they pull it out, we go bust.

With the friends dimson has made, those countries have no reason to
support him by sticking to the dollar. They have the power now. And
there is no reason for them to exchange dollars slowly if they really want to hurt Bush and Carlyle and the cabal, both personally and professionally. If the countries have all mostly switched to Euro
there's not much time before they cash in and pluck America and dimson. If that would be the only way to get rid of dimson they might do that. UNLESS Kerry-Edwards get in. Europe might be more willing to deal with more reasonable American leaders.

On the other hand, since dimson has robbed the treasury and returned
most of it to the corporations, mostly large, and parked the rest of
it, he won't care if the country goes bankrupt which it is.

Print more dollars and pay the national debt with devalued dollars.

AHA! Bush turned down Russia's $20 a barrell longterm contracts. That
must be the key to why the "powers" have gotten turned off him and
want to see him gone.

We're in big doo-doo.

If they had, we would have truly enormous inflation. Some have, so we have SOME inflation. Saudi had diversified, but once the US army parked on their doorstep, they went back to strictly dollars.

No, while our military is right in the middle of the oilfields, and with a powerful Israeli ally close by, and of course, we still have England with us...whether the English people want it or not...no, the major currency on this planet will remain the dollar. To buy oil, you will need dollars, to trade with America's asian clients, some of them economic powerhouses in their own right (Japan has long been number two), you will need dollars. And of course, to trade with the US, you will need dollars.

Some nations are diversifying, but few are as powerful as Russia, who may spit in our eye, as Putin has, and in combination with Russia, the EU. China however, has seven carriers off the coast. China has diversified to a certain extent, but should they forgo the dollar, how hard do you think it would be (behind the scenes) for us to tell Taiwan to declare independence? China has painted themselves into a corner on this. It would mean war. And we would 'have to' defend Taiwan.

And the administration has made it clear the war on terror may involve our crushing 50 or more nations.

I guess it really depends on whether you believe the war on terror is real, or simply an excuse to attack anyone we want to. We also claim the right to invade 'some' nations-like Iraq-over WMD...and Iraq did'nt even have any. But Iraq had just gone to the Euro...and North Korea has, and Iran was threatening, at the time Bush made his Axis of Evil speech. Iran still IS threatening, if they have'nt diversified or divested already.

These are'nt my ideas, by the way, and as I said, Lestatdelc did a better job than I ever could in explaining things...the English used to call it 'The Great Game'. and they are right in the middle of it, to this day, irregardless of what their people may want. If Blair loses, the Tories will win, and the game will continue; just as it will if John Kerry wins on our side of the water.

Much of what has been posted here, is more like organized crime...Bush is definitely out of control, and has certainly made a botch of things, and will be removed in November, if not sooner. I am talking about the game of nations...sums of money so large, they represent, not personal gain, but power and control. America's control, and the mechanism whereby we bring it about. Bushco are agents...the gang that could'nt shoot straight. He must go, before the American People demand we bring the troops home, such a mess has he made of things. He is toast, and Kerry will not pull the troops out. We all know long term bases are being built in the desert. It is not tinfoil, simply the facts.

and England wants to convert to the Euro too, because England wants
to be together with the European Union.

The administration has made it clear they may crush 50 nations?
that would be funny, if I didn't know they were so nuts.

We don't have enough army to crush a country the size of Rhode Island.

We can bomb them into oblivion but not take them over.

We huffed and puffed and the world sees we're bushco nutty phonies.

I think we're in for an "economic war" and we are not going to be the winners.

This is the decline of Rome. I think it is between China and India as
to who will be the next powers, even though OBL thinks Islam should be. Not gonna happen.

And under the circumstances with 5? billion people in China, I don't think that Taiwan is anything for us to make a deal with.

As a matter of fact, I think China is going to watch the mess being made in Afghanistan and Iraq....wait a while...and at the appropriate
moment, for them, march down out of their borders and take over.

We could end up at war with China yet in the Middle East.

Crachet, where are their, China's, carriers positioned? What kind of
carriers and what are they doig there?

I thought you would be aware of 'Summer Pulse 04'?

On another note, Dick Cheney repeatedly has said the war on terror will be 'multigenerational' and involve as targets, at least 50 nations. We don't have to occupy them to control them...except in the case of those regions that contain heavy concentrations of oil, like eastern Saudi Arabia.

As to an oncoming 'economic war', I think it is ongoing now, and has been since the introduction of the Euro. The next developement is also ongoing, the introduction by Malaysia of the Islamic gold-backed Dinar, for internal trade between the fifty-odd Islamic nations. It will be interesting to see, how the Dollar and Euro, both 'fiat' or floating currencies, compete against this new, hard currency. China is said to be extremely interested in this new developement.

Anyhow, control of the oil in all this is key. If we are successful in our efforts to control this physical resource, you will see the Euro begin to fall against the dollar-becoming, over time, no more important than the yen or the yuan are today. A regional currency, IMHO.

And with regards to your reference to Rome...I would say this is more like we have left the Republic phase, and entered the Empire phase. Concentrations of wealth in individual hands have reached critical mass in this country (and around the world), and now allow actual control. Politics in this country can best be characterized as a struggle between various elites within the ruling oligarchy.

As to England...England is torn. They are in the EU, but have yet to adopt the Euro...as is the case with Norway and Sweden. Will England submerge themselves completely in the continent? I do not know, but if history is any guide, I suspect not. The location of their troops in Iraq speaks volumes, with regards to this.

<<first posted in the ECON section, but seems warranted to include here. I disagree that the euro will be a regional currency, as it is already the 2nd most widely held hard currency in the central banks of the world. Heck, in 2003 even our Canadian neighbors reduced their dollar holding from 75% to 55%, (sold gold) and used that $ to increase euro holdings to about 35% of their total reserves. See below for an interesting development in Iran...>>>

Well, this was an interesting find. For those who have followed my Iraq war/dollar/euro/oil/OPEC essay, here's a quick note. The US dollar, despite serious structual imbalances, is able to keep its hegemonic/supremacy role in large part because all 3 international traded exchange markets use "crude oil markers" denominated in US dollars.

The 3 oil pricing markers are: West Texas Crude Intermediate (WTI - traded on the New York Mercantile Exchange, or NYMEX), Norway's Brent Crude (traded on London's International Petroleum Exchange, or IPE), and Dubai's crude oil marker (used to price oil fot the Asian markets). The last marker is the one with problems: "Dubai and Oman pricing is based more on the physical trades of Dubai and Oman but due to falling production levels questions are being raised about the appropriateness of Dubai as a marker crude."

So, according to the below article, Iran is setting up its own international oil exchange market in 2005. Given that Iran already accepts euros for their oil exports, has no trade relationship with the US (since 1979, they can not acquire US dollars through direct trade relationships with the US) - I would assume that any such new crude oil exchagne market will be euro-based given Iran's transfer 2 years ago to the euro as their central banks's primary reserve currency...(along with last year's request that ACU/ASEAN countries pay their oil bill in euros, not dollars...)

In essence, setting up a euro-based pricing mechanism/international exchange market would remove one - if not *the* - main "techincal obstacle" that some members of OPEC have suggested is one of reasons why a "petroeuro" arrangement is difficult to implement. I should also note that since mid-2003 Iran's oil sales to the EU (such as Italy) have been priced in dollars, but the payments have been invoiced in *euros,* making the transactions a bit more complex than if oil prices were also denominated in euros. It seems Iran is trying to remove that final "technical obstacle"...something that some other OPEC members want, but may be too afraid to state publically for fear of covert or overt "regime change"...(please see "Venezuela coup attempt April 2002" - courtesy of when your foreign minister Mieres-Lopez in 2001 suggests that going to a petroeuro system may reduce your currency risks...)

As an aside, in my essay, I suggested that Russia *could* ultimately create a 4th oil crude marker denominated in the euro currency, but this move by Iran makes more sense given they have larger oil reserves, and will not suffer economically from cutting their ties to the dollar (Iran has *no* ties to the dollar, and was losing money on the devalued dollar relative to the euro).

Moreover, as of May 2004 the EU enlarged to 22 nations and will now import the majority of OPEC oil exports (about 60% according to OPEC), and again according to OPEC, about 45% of Middle Eastern trade comes from the EU zone (circa 2002) - so from a purely monetary, trade, and economic perspective - this makes sense for Iran. Will this new exchange market work? Only time will tell...but I have long suspected something like this could occur.

Well folks, I would keep an eye on this Iranian development, and please note the final sentence in this thread...can anyone say "regime change" for Iran if the neocons stay in power after November? Good, I knew you could. It won't be "shock and awe" due to Iran's robust military capability and strategic position in the Gulf, but perhaps a deja vu' covert operation - circa 1953? Such an attempt would be a profound mistake, but obviously the neocons have no appreciation for history...only bizarre dreams of global empire.

Me thinks we are witnessing the slow but imminent end of US dollar hegemony...just as I predicted 1.5 years ago in my pre-war essay on Iraq re the underlying macroeconoimoic and geostrategic forces (ie. emergence of a "petroeuro" in Iraq and the imminent arrival of global Peak Oil b/t 2007-2010). Well, I would like to take this moment and personally thank George W. Bush and all his neocon Imperialist friends, as you and your fascist manifesto, the 'Project for a New American Century' have united the world against the us(!) More specifically, you and the unilateral warmongering neocons have exascerbated what should have been a gradual movement away from the dollar towards the euro - to an increasingly likely abandonment of the dollar standard due to current geopolitcal tensions over Iraq, thanks George(!)

We live in interesting times...

*********

'Iran takes on west's control of oil trading'

Terry Macalister
Wednesday June 16, 2004
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,3604,1239644 ...

"Iran is to launch an oil trading market for Middle East and Opec producers that could threaten the supremacy of London's International Petroleum Exchange.

A contract to design and establish a new platform for crude, natural gas and petrochemical trades is expected to be signed with an international consortium within days.

Top oil producing countries are determined to seize more control of trading after being advised that existing markets such as the IPE and Nymex in New York are not working in their favour."

<<snippet of a REAL understatement..>>>

"Some industry experts have warned the Iranians and other Opec producers that western exchanges are controlled by big financial and oil corporations, which have a vested interest in market volatility."

An independent exchange. But you quite rightly allude to the potential for 'regime change', as a result. No doubt, this explains the accelerating accusations with regards to Iran's possesion of nuclear weapons, prepratory to military strikes, or invasion...destabilization has been ongoing, IMO. The problem is, Iran may very well actually already posess such means of defense, which would complicate things enormously. Interesting.

That other nations are finally realizing the current monetary regime and resouce exchanges work against them is a given, I think. But that is where military power enters the equation.

With regards to military power, I see Russia as being the only Power strong enough to spit in our eye; as well as being resource-rich enough in their own right, to have occasion to do so. And they have done so. Perhaps they will support the Iranian exchange. Again, interesting.

As I posted earlier, I believe Russia is the key. George Bush was a fool to turn his back on Putin. Any effort to supplant Anglo/American domination of world markets and commerce must have a military dimension, or they are toothless, and doomed to failure. Only Russia can credibly supply this. Perhaps the EU will some day represent a credible counterbalance to US military power, but national memories seem to be intervening over there, and are slowing this effort today.

We do indeed live in interesting times, and they have become even more interesting with the advent of the internet-again, thanks for your insights.

meanwhile,confirms my understanding of what is happening Euro v
Dollar

Thanks Goren4 for filling in the details supporting the conclusion
I came to as another reason why we invaded Iraq (trading in Euro) and
meant as a threat to the rest of the region.

This Dinar for all Islamic countries is going to be a very interesting development.

Cratchett, Prince Bandar was on one of the shows, immediately after the premier of Fahrenheit doing pr work, but let it slip they are
building refinery in China.

Now that was probably a message to the powers that be and dimson and
the multi-nationals rather than for general populace consumption.
But that's what he said. So drop that into the economic formula.

I especially liked this line" "Some industry experts have warned the Iranians and other Opec producers that western exchanges are controlled by big financial and oil corporations, which have a vested interest in market volatility"

heh - just whose behalf do they think the American Army is sitting in
the middle of the ME for?

Hi - I posted on the other thread a summary of stuff from the DEA Watch site.. http://members.aol.com/deawatch/daily.htm

Afraid I didn't see your reply 'til after the thread was locked and I don't have enough posts to send messages. I can't vouch for the reliability of DEA Watch, someone at the Daily Kos (ben masel) who follows drug policy referred to it recently and I checked it out. It is pretty new to me, so you have to use your own judgement.

A recent posting (July 7) from that site (check out the last paragraph!):
>>>Bush and Cheney thought that they could use the vices and ambitions of others to make the Bush-Cheney Family empires richer. But Bush's flattery of Ariel Sharon failed to get Sharon to make the ME less of a thorn in Bush's side. It wasn't Bush who was using Sharon. It was Sharon who was using Bush.

TONY BLAIR: Mr. B. was caught between a rock and a hard place. During his first one-on-one conversation with George Bush, Mr. B. realized right off the bat that he was dealing with a Neanderthal mentality driven by greed to control Saddam's vast oil fields for the Bush Oil Empire. Mr. B. knew that Bush would invade Iraq with or without Great Britain so Mr. B. had to tag along. Britain could not survive against is ancestral enemies, France and Germany, without U.S. backup. Mr. B. will be glad to see Bush defeated in November.

MOHAMMAR KHADAFI: Mo did what Saddam was too arrogant to do: Sing and dance George Bush's song long enough to take the pressure off and avoid being invaded. Unlike Saddam, Mo was never a CIA employee working for Bush Sr. Saddam was foolish. He thought that the knowledge of his past CIA and Bush Family dealings would frighten Bush Jr from invading. But Saddam made the big mistake of not telling the world the backstory... and the mistake of realizing that Jr is completely mad. Backstory's fail to protect you if you never make them Frontstory's.>>>

Keep on trucking, er posting!

very well written and most informative.

Especially the ending...

"Bush with a 71% approval rating in less than a year loses the election and Bill Clinton and the Democrats suddenly have the keys to the White House, the first time in 12 years and first time since OPEC was brought into the fold after Carter's undoing.

Now do you see why Clinton was hunted...?

Now does trooper-gate, travel-gate, bimbo-gate, Vince Fosters murder-gate, Ron Brown murder-gate and a fucking blue dress make sense...?"

I did have to <chuckle> out loud knowing the anger befalling BushI, when after all his work in positioning himself for tomorrow, Bill snatched the keys to the kingdom right out from under his nose, as cool as the magician snatching the tablecloth off the table without moving the dishes..

Methinks we are there again..Kerry's surging popularity especially after yesterday's addition of Edwards as VP doesn't bode well for Bush to recoup any traction at all to get himself elected in Nov.

The only recourse left for Bush as a guaranteed remedy to remain in control IS Martial Law. I have no doubt he will play that card without hesitation...as soon as he has positioned himself and whatever is left of his faithful flock in a safe and secure location.

HELP!

posted every day...that's where we get into all this stuff. That post that Ozy does every day and contributed to by DU'er "54aNickle," "UpInArms" and "Maeve," and others here is worth looking at for the "Finance Angle" of what we are living through..

I know most don't have the time but there have been good posts about the
GLOBAL ECONOMY and how this fits it. Euro-dollars compared to the Gold Standard? All of it...

So, this was a great post to add to the discussion...Thanks! 's I figured it was a good one to start off with...about Iraq Oil/Euro and Blair and Germany and France. We gotta look at how all the "BIG GLOBAL MONEY" fits into the picture to really see how it all works against US (the little people) in the end.. and why they fight their wars..the "GLOBALISTS."

you have!!

1) It is now estimated that we have about 8 years left before the world's oil crisis kicks into high gear. It may very well take that same 8 years to get peace in Iraq and the needed oil.Some are saying that Arabia may have already 'peaked' at which point the crisis may come earlier.

2)Now add to it that it is believed that Arabia funded the nuke program in Pakistan. They have tried to assassinate Musharraf twice. It will take about a nano second for Hezbelloh to walk into join their friends in Pakistan....OUR FRIENDS!

3)Now add to this King Fahd is dying. The two sons are fighting for the kingdom. If their is a civil war in Arabia 25% of the world's oil could very well be in jeopardy.

America is on a power grab for all the remaining world's oil( and natural gas) out entire economy depends on it.

It's obvious that much of what is what has been discussed on these threads involves the movement of huge sums of money around the world. The sources of that money are also clear, at least in outline -- the main ones being oil, arms sales, and illicit drugs. And the mechanics of money laundering are apparent, from complicit banks to the diamond trade.

But what I've never seen clearly addressed is where all that money goes and what it does when it gets there. If, say, trillions of dollars have been ripped off from the US government, what's become of it all? Clearly, it's not just sitting in vaults somewhere for the Uncle Scrooges of this world to dive through like a porpoise and throw it up and let it hit them on their heads. But what is it being used for? What purpose are these unfathomable sums actually serving?

It goes without saying that the ultimate point must be power. But power for whom? And power to do what? I think we need to start examining the other side of the money equation a lot more closely.

The Reverend Moon might be taken as a representative (if somewhat eccentric) case. Here is someone who has access to large sums of money (probably much of it from dubious sources) and is visibly spending it on things like having the Washington Times run at a consistent loss. In his case, the objective seems to be to buy himself the kingship of the world.

Other wealthy and secretive men are not as transparent in their ambitions. For example, take William Stamps Farish III, Bush family friend and recently-resigned ambassador to Great Britain. One writeup on him says, "Known as one of the richest men in Texas, Will Farish keeps his business affairs under the most intense secrecy. Only the source of his immense wealth is known, not its employment."

And these are just individuals. There are also official and unofficial organizations of various sorts involved in the game. What is the CIA, say, doing with all its off-the-books income? Does it really cost that much to control public opinion and overthrow the occasional government? Does it all just dribble away in fruitless arm-wrestling for dominance? Or is much of the lose cash going into the manipulation of financial markets -- and if so, to what purpose except to produce more money?

There's a puzzle here I can't get my head around. If we were living in one of those science fiction stories where it turns out an entire planet is being exploited for the benefit of some other-dimensional world, even that would make more sense. But I can't see any earthly reason for the transfer of these vast amounts of wealth from us to -- whoever.

Bechtel, GE, Carlyle -gobs of the money to their munitions companies.
Don't forget Carlyle has under its umbrella 175 known companies. Carlyle which = Daddy and friends and family owns the 10th largest munitions company in the country. Now who do you think is
supplying Us with munitions for Iraq. BTW hard to believe but my understanding is they are now the manufacturers of the Bradley tank,
bought the company.They also have school book publishing company, Nextel cell phone, and trying to get TV station and movie company in
Hollywood.

THAT's the answer to your question. Yes power.The money goes to create the power to shape countries and make the people compliant. Power to form opinion. Power to miseducate and misinform. It used to be called the CIA's black bag operations. But it just came to me. Daddy dimson WAS the CIA. If we look at what he has done with Carlyle,
the major players involved, and what they have done with the money, we
will understand how they have infiltrated all societies and worked at setting that society and the people's opinions in the structure they desire. A brother of Dimson has created a computer program test that all Florida children must take and pass. The result has been in order to pass the test children don;t have the time or teachers the time to teach the normal schedule of history, math, and so on. They must study subjects which are limited to the questions contained in the "test".

Good gawd. The whole thing has just opened up to me. I understand. Forget education. What they are doing is downgrading the talents of the American people starting with the children so that they will be a labor force, service, hamburger flippers rather than scientists, doctors, lawyers. Only the wealthy will once again be able to afford good or special or private schools to get a real education. Making a ruling class. Lower wages for less educated people. Educated scientists rising up from China, India, foreign countries where our jobs and money have gone.

Holy of holies. These people must be stopped.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- -
Halliburton, BEchtel, the munitions and oil companies, energy companies have always been the "shadow governement" where before no one knew exactly who they were.

Now they have come out of the shadows and are running the country , this country in the form of dimson and especially Cheney. Halliburton and the Bush family are connected through marriage. Halliburton name used to be Dresser Industries owned by Herbert Walker. Walker's daughter married Prescott Bush. Dresser changed name to Halliburton.
do the names George Herbert Walker Bush sound familiar?

Guess who's in charge of the wealth of this country?

Do a little googling. You;d be amazed what you can find out. But if
your read all the Plame threads - you'll know all that we know - and more. Things are just coming together now by reading Star's and others posts above today.

BTW, I recently heard on cable that that 20,000 strong private and I emphasize private security contractor force owned by Halliburton, among others, was trained with US tax dollars. We are paying them $1000 a day or more while those enlisted in the army are getting what
$400 a month?

I haven't looked into it entirely but thinking it out, 85 billion went to Iraq asked for by the neo-cons . It has been exposed within the last 10 days that only $300 to $400 million has been spent on Iraq .

I am now wondering if we are being billed by Halliburton for their private security force which they are paying $1000 a day...inotherwords at taxpayer expense?

And don't forget, banks are involved. Banks have always been involved.
Bremmer was from a banking firm. Brown - (Harriman) involved with CIA,
and money laundering, Solomon Brothers, Citibank, Riggs, easy to google. Old CIA contacts, members or CEO's on Board of Directors of many investment houses and banks. Just google in CIA names from the past + bank.

Follow the money.

CIA is bank. Bank is CIA, oil company, Bechtel, Lockheed Martin, large corporations, old companies and names, all intertwined in a stranglehold on the wealth of this country and now of the world.

Kerry has raised, what -- $200 million? And that's considered an enormous amount of money. The total spent by all parties in the 2000 presidential campaign was only about $355 million.

But just the amount that missing in official Pentagon audits every year is in the tens of billions. The total assets unaccounted for run over $2 trillion.

Drug trafficking and money laundering figures are even higher. An article from 1998 says, "The trade in illicit drugs is estimated to be worth $400 billion a year, and it accounts for 8% of all international trade, according to the United Nations. . . . In a May 1998 speech, President Clinton declared, 'Up to $500 billion in criminal proceeds every single year—more than the GNP of most nations—is laundered, disguised as legitimate revenue, and much of it moves across our borders.' As much as $100 billion a year in drug trafficking cash moves through the U.S. financial system, according to the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN)."

The worldwide arms trade is said to be even bigger than the drug trade. And having access to this much money makes it possible to manipulate the financial markets and generate even more questionable profits.

So we're talking about an amount of money sufficient to buy and sell every election in the world a thousand times over. And all this cash is moving around the globe freely and almost uncontrolled. It's like being shown an enormous power plant out in the desert somewhere and asking what it's for and being told that it's to supply the needs of one little nearby town. It just doesn't scale.

CIA buying private airlines to ship arms and tanks and tankers to
support their wars...their wars? our wars and coups - we just didn't know it.

Your're on to it starroute. Keep going. Whenever a post makes us think and put things together , we get a better understanding and closer to the workings of this mafia government.

of the crew...We are but small players in this...those of us with our 401-K's instead of traditional Pensions. We've been suckered and hoodwinked into thinking that 401-K's are better than traditional Pensions...but NOT!

They use our money with their own to MANIPULATE US!

And from there, you will go to the 'House of the Red Shield'...the Rothschilds.

But of course, you will also be ridiculed in an effort to poke holes in your own 'tinfoil' armor.

The subject is complex, and any effort to explain or to explore it, in a paragraph or two, may be doomed to failure. Witness my own effort, on this thread! lol.

But I agree with you-a pension with a COLA is more secure than a 401k...especially if it is guaranteed by the PBGC.

in New York wants to be a player, and the New Jersey Senator Corzine
formerly investment banker? who bought the seat with 60$million worth of ads....which is becoming more common....spend large amounts unheard of amounts to get into congress so you can be a player

Gates
Paul Allen
many new competitors for the old guard...no wonder they went after
Bill Gates with suit after suit, to stop his accumulation of billions..

good lord - there are so many now who are billionaires.....all trying to get in the big power poker game.

they want to be in the play...and if they're not in oil and banking,brokerage or investment houses -
communications seems to be the new power company......thus Powell Junior trying to make it easier for the handful to take over more media outlets by changing the laws how many one person or coporation could own.

quote
Good gawd. The whole thing has just opened up to me. I understand. Forget education. What they are doing is downgrading the talents of the American people starting with the children so that they will be a labor force, service, hamburger flippers rather than scientists, doctors, lawyers
end quote

Why do you think that Bushit immigration policy was suggested. MORE uneducated non citizens (they can't vote!) to work for $6/hour.

I'm sure we all agree that American's would overthrow this administration IF they understood. As long as we keep them ill informed with Rush Limbaugh and Karl Rove....we have no chance of a consensus.

American are so worried about ROE and Gay marriage they are not paying attention to anything that is important.

Don't they?

Making wealth for new generations of aristocrats in addition to power now. No need to fear a sunk economy if you are one of the have and have mores--you weather it and really it furthers your goals of consecrating power by this stratification. You might even desire to see the economy tank on purpose, if your main goal is a sort of subtle class war and it doesn't bother your people (um, scumbags).

thanks

thanks

thanks

THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO & CAN DO: from yr link above

Edited on Wed Jul-07-04 01:58 PM by Pallas180

TAKING THE BEST paragraphs from the Waxman link below & e mail to Olberman & Dobbs, the only ones on CNN and MSNBC who would broadcast Waxman's stuff.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29810-20 ...

E mail or write something like this to the editor's page of Washington Post, NY Times, LA Times, your local newspaper, DAily News, Salon, You have a favorite site? send it

Dear Sir:

Republican leaders in Congress have refused to investigate who treasonously exposed covert CIA agent Valerie Plame in this administration, whose identity was leaked after her husband, Joe Wilson, challenged the administration's claims that Iraq sought nuclear weapons.

The Republican Chairmen of all committees have held virtually no public hearings on the hundreds of misleading claims made by administration officials about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and ties to al Qaeda.

During the Clinton administration, Congress spent over $70 millions of tax dollars probing alleged White House wrongdoing. There was no accusation too minor to explore, no demand on the administration too intrusive to make.

It is the responsibility of the Fourth estate, the media, to expose the failure of Congress to investigate these "misleading claims" and treasonous action by someone in the governemtn, and to keep this government "honest"through exposure when it won't act responsibly, as the Fourth Estate did thirty years ago during the Nixon abberation.

WHY are you not fulfilling your role to the American people and this country and WHEN will you start ?

for the exposure of CIA covert agent Valerie Plame.

Then we started looking at why Cheney and the WH and Rove and Dimson
went after Valerie Plame and exposed her.

We have come to the conclusion the exposure was not really payback to her husband, Joe Wilson former ambassador, who exposed that the letter stating Iraq had nuclear material and had purchased it from Niger was untrue and the letter was forged, which the administration had used in the State of Union and to convince the American people that Iraq had to be pre-emptively invaded.

We think that it is highly possible that because Valerie Plame's spy job was to track illegal WMD, she was getting close to finding out the
administration, or Halliburton, or Cheney was involved in illegal sale
of nuke materials to an enemy country which is against the US Law.

We found that Halliburton under Cheney had already sold nuke material to Libya in 1995 and was fined 1.2 million $. Now sales to Iran and
Syrria may possibly be under investigation

So we wonder if she was about to expose .....what? and was sidelined by the administration to prevent...what?

here's some from thread 3:

Thu Jul-08-04 02:46 AM Response to Reply #222

223. Just came to me, maybe Valerie Plame was the one who caught Cheney in 1995 selling illegal nuclear to Quadafi and has it out for
her ever since. if so she cost his company 1.2 million....and you'd be surprised, the richer you are the cheaper you are and fight for every penny.

Maybe it's as simple as that. ? She's the one who did her job and
reported him?



Snazzy Thu Jul-08-04 05:23 AM Response to Reply #223

229. I keep hearing dif things about what country her focus was
I've read either Saudi or Iraq (but you'd think all the wmd people were on Iraq to some degree). Maybe we don't know (?) or it was broadly wmd proliferation.

Halliburton has problems all over the place, but maybe the most interesting is Iran--in terms of US not wanting another 'Islamic bomb' and Halliburton not giving a shit. That story broke publicly in Feb.:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/oil/story/0,11319,1146372,00 ....

This broke as a Treasury investigation. Money/biz from Halliburton Dubai.

Halliburton's Nigeria problems began closer to Plame/Novakula. But not sure why wmd specialist would be on Nigeria.

But who knows, need more info. Libya, Pakistan, your hot spot here.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _

You can catch up on a lot of this at thread 3 - too good to miss
The many DU'ers posting on this are using a lot of investigative brain power:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

regarding the US pressuring Pakistan to hand over OBL during the Dem covention. The quid pro quo suggested for this is that US would and HAS laid off investigations into what exactly is going on w/ Pak's nuke programs and it's nuke scientists giving aid to terrorists. Remember, we let them get away w/ pardoning their top nuke guy who gave at the very least info to terrorist supporting country's and members of the "axis of evil".

Pak is afraid that if Kerry is pres. he will go after Pak for WMD dissemination. It's quite possible Plame's work involved Pakistan.

Link:

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040719&s=aaj071904

From the article:

The Bush administration has matched this public and private pressure with enticements and implicit threats. During his March visit to Islamabad, Powell designated Pakistan a major non-nato ally, a status that allows its military to purchase a wider array of U.S. weaponry. Powell pointedly refused to criticize Musharraf for pardoning nuclear physicist A.Q. Khan--who, the previous month, had admitted exporting nuclear secrets to Iran, North Korea, and Libya--declaring Khan's transgressions an "internal" Pakistani issue. In addition, the administration is pushing a five-year, $3 billion aid package for Pakistan through Congress over Democratic concerns about the country's proliferation of nuclear technology and lack of democratic reform.

But Powell conspicuously did not commit the United States to selling F-16s to Pakistan, which it desperately wants in order to tilt the regional balance of power against India. And the Pakistanis fear that, if they don't produce an HVT, they won't get the planes. Equally, they fear that, if they don't deliver, either Bush or a prospective Kerry administration would turn its attention to the apparent role of Pakistan's security establishment in facilitating Khan's illicit proliferation network. One Pakistani general recently in Washington confided in a journalist, "If we don't find these guys by the election, they are going to stick this whole nuclear mess up our asshole."

Pakistani perceptions of U.S. politics reinforce these worries. "In Pakistan, there has been a folk belief that, whenever there's a Republican administration in office, relations with Pakistan have been very good," says Khalid Hasan, a U.S. correspondent for the Lahore-based Daily Times. By contrast, there's also a "folk belief that the Democrats are always pro-India." Recent history has validated those beliefs. The Clinton administration inherited close ties to Pakistan, forged a decade earlier in collaboration against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. But, by the time Clinton left office, the United States had tilted toward India, and Pakistan was under U.S. sanctions for its nuclear activities. All this has given Musharraf reason not just to respond to pressure from Bush, but to feel invested in him--and to worry that Kerry, who called the Khan affair a "disaster," and who has proposed tough new curbs on nuclear proliferation, would adopt an icier line.

and keep it near the top.

Remember, Rove and crew ALWAYS like to double-load a move. Make everything a twofer.

I see the Plame outing as being a chance to scuttle the exposure of the false pre-text of WMD in Iraq which they needed as the agreed upon game-plan for taking out Iraq. This is confirmed by NUMEROUS sources that directly state that the WMD was the agreed upon axle turn the entire Iraq move.

But it also was a way to pre-empt (oh that word) upsetting the cooperative work with the ISI not only on the surface level of the "GWOT" but its arms dealing with Bechtel and other BushCo. subsidiaries.

It is absolutely ASTOUNDING to me that we are even dealing with the Pakistani Gov. since the Taliban was a wholly ISI created creature and we know for a fact they have been dealing with illicit WMD trade materials with all the folks we allegedly are in a "GWOT" with.

Cheney's office was inside Langely, and Rummy had his own crew set up at the OSP. All this controlling and steering Langely, and doing an end-run around State for the most part, while Powell is busy with farcical war on drugs offers to the ISI creature the Taliban to stop growing poppies.

This is why no Predators in the air in Pakistan prior to 9/11 once BushCo. was in office. This is why BushCo. girl in Yemen refused John O'Neil back into the country to follow the trail on the Cole bombing. Because it was going to expose BushCo. under the radar dealing with propping up Saud, going the wrong way at tracing to Pakistan and not to Iraq or Iran which they would have loved to have been headed towards.

This is why initially the Cole was being fingered at Hezzbolah and not al-Qaeda, and why John O'Neil was calling bullshit on that line. Then we get hanging chads, the SCOTUS end-run of the Constitution and the now outgoing Clinton administration hands BushCo. a war plan attacking the Taliban, using NA assets to spearhead it, which would have been attacking their own interests with the ISI that BushCo. had and the money trail would have lead to Saudi Arabia and the Saud family who have been funneling money into those groups for decades via Pakistan.

So Hart-Rudman gets shelved, and "operation ignore" goes into full swing.

Then 9/11 happens and the "trifecta" is struck.

That dear in the headlights for 7 minutes was real folks, but it was a chance to make lemonade and shore up their operation and make the big moves that going the internatioanlist and UN route would have prevented.

Lesta,

what does GWOT stand for?

The Defense Policy Board (DPB) meets in secrecy in Rumsfeld's Pentagon conference room on September 19 and 20 for nineteen hours to discuss the option of taking military action against Iraq. This is reported in detail by the New York Times three weeks later on October 12. {New York Times, 10/12/01} Among those attending the meeting are the 18 members of the Defense Policy Board, Paul Wolfowitz, and Donald Rumsfeld, Ahmed Chalabi, and Bernard Lewis. {New York Times 10/12/01; Vanity Fair, 5/2004, pg 236} Secretary of State Colin Powell and other State Department officials in charge of US policy toward Iraq are not invited and are not informed of the meeting. A source will later tell the New York Times that Powell was irritated about not being briefed on the meeting. {New York Times 10/12/01} During the seminar, two of Richard Perle's invited guests, Princeton professor Bernard Lewis and Ahmed Chalabi, the president of the Iraqi National Congress, are given the opportunity to speak. Lewis says that the US must encourage democratic reformers in the Middle East, “such as my friend here, Ahmed Chalbi.” Chalabi argues that Iraq is a breeding ground for terrorists and asserts that Saddam's regime has weapons of mass destruction. {Vanity Fair, 5/2004, pg 232} During another part of the meeting, the attendees write a letter to President Bush calling for the removal of Saddam Hussein. “{E}ven if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack, any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq. Failure to undertake such an effort will constitute an early and perhaps decisive surrender in the war on international terrorism,” the letter reads. The letter is published in The Washington Times on September 20 in the name of The Project for a New American Century (PNAC), a conservative think tank that believes the US needs to shoulder the responsibility for maintaining “peace” and “security” in the world by strengthening its global hegemony. {Project for a New American Century, 9/20/01; Manila Times, 7/19/03} They also discuss how to overcome some of the obvious diplomatic and political pressures that will impede a policy of regime change in Iraq. {New York Times 10/12/01} Bush reportedly rejects the proposal, as both Cheney and Powell agree that there is no evidence implicating Saddam Hussein in the attacks. {New York Times 10/12/01 Sources: Unnamed senior administration officials and defense experts}

The link should be http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=com... but that's not coming up. Google cache is http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:hz749LyBXjQJ:www.c...

as fact to continue in this vein..

Rather than running around in circles. Let the facts reveal themselves before we go on..

For now, it is wise to continue to get more face time to keep Plame in the news and get the perps responsible, indicted.

have our answer on what Plame was onto and why they went after her.

link to the news report there.

Keeping Track of Pakistan's proliferation programs however, does sound like something that might have been right up her alley...

leads the reader to believe after much comprehensive research, with many statements to link to...does more harm than good to theorized without having something concrete to back your play...I'm just sayin!

to tell you the truth, I would hesitate to say ANYTHING on this thread is anything more than educated guesses, so any conclusions would be nothing more than that. Not sure what you're point is. I'm just supplying additional info that may or may not be connected, there's no harm in that whatsoever. Any reader can make of it what they will, as they can do with everything on this thread, or any other for that matter.

On edit: I see I made a mistake and that your post was not in reply to my post originally...My mistake and apologies...

Who forged the documents that was the trigger for the Wilson trip, etc....?

Remember... the Niger documents were meant to steer towards Iraq, Plame (and the WH feared Wilson since they knew they were married) might have known real WMD proliferation and al-Qaeda funding issues point to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (those are linked remember).

So who created the forgeries and why?

Why point bogus WMD to Niger?

TPM is hinting that it is the same people (or a trail that leads to the same peopel) who outted her.

Wilson (connected to Plame who is going after the real goods) were a threat to the documents lack of veracity and Plame and Langley we headed after the vipers-nest of ISI created, Saudi/Bush funded Taliban and extremists they have been trying to "buyout" and keep off the Arabian peninsula.

Remember, Saudi Arabia.. Bander himself on ABC admitted they have been buying off Usama for years, while he, like the Iranian radicals and the Ayatollah were waging "asymmetrical" war against the Shah (back it the day) and now the house of Saud in the present.

Saddam was on of two loose loose cannons and went off the reservation, first, and fatally in 91.

THAT is why Iraq.

We couldn't pull the trigger when he did back then because we didn't know the WMD threat he posed then and there. But the aftermath left Saddam an out, come clean on the WMD issue, that Bush/Saud could no longer afford. This is why the Neo-cons pushed so hard under Clinton to shift official policy to be the change of regime in Iraq in 98.

Because of our move into Saudi Arabia, we exacerbated and made explicit our dauphine arrangement with the house of Saud. Just as we did with the Shah, we ended up radicalizing those under the thumb and BDM supplied weapons.

bingo. the analogy is absolutely correct that everyone has been missing - and by being in Saudi Arabia, we did the same thing.
we disturbed the bee hive and now we've got a whole hive of angry bees
attacking...

Meanwhile, we gave Saddam I believe, or rather Pappy gave Saddam secret spy equipment- some kind of tracking thing - and of course Rumsfeld/Cheney gave him the gas (now they're giving him the pipe to go with it).

What else did we give out. Saudi Arabia has WMD ???

Cheney for sure sold illegally to Syrria and Iran possibly nukular equipment because one of his speeches just before he became veep and while he was still very much CEO of Halliburton was how stupid the rules were prohibiting him from selling to Syrria and Iran.

Oh to get both of then on treason.

It could never happen to pappy, but it could happen to dimson.

Who forged the Niger papers? Someone stupid. Who did not know history, who was not a Nigerian, and who did not know who was in the
government of Niger at the supposed dates they were trying to forge.

Likely a dirty trickster in the WH, a politico, not an intel agent who
would have been careful of stationery and dates.

Hello Segretti? Isn;t that how he ended up in jail - forging on someone else's stationery.

Would Rove be that stupid? ? ? ?

And if Rove it leads directly to dimson, to promote his war.

as the French would say, incredble !

people thought they could get away with the lie about Niger. The US CI/MI sources in this part of Africa are shallow compared to other areas of the world. There were enough different interests who had had access to Niger that the idea appeared to be that no one would know if Iraq had contacted & tried to purchase the material in question. But that was Wilson's neighborhood... he was known and TRUSTED. Keep in mind that Wilson is an extremely talented individual.

Plame's investigation was separate from what he was doing. Yet while their projects were distinct, there was an over-lap. And that is in large part what the administration was in a PANIC about.

US firm said among nuclear black market

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&e=3...

VIENNA, Austria - An investigation of the black market supplying nations wanting nuclear arms has spread to more than 20 firms - some of them North American - the chief of the U.N. atomic agency told The Associated Press Friday. A senior diplomat identified one of the firms as U.S. based.

Demanding anonymity, the diplomat also said the Syria and Saudi Arabia are also being investigated as possible buyer nations, beyond Iraq (news - web sites), Iran, Libya and North Korea (news - web sites) - the countries known to have been in contact with Pakistani scientist A.Q. Khan and members of his procurement network.


But the diplomat, who is familiar with the Vienna-based IAEA told The AP that beyond suspicions prompting a continuing investigation, "there has been no proof" on Syria and Saudi Arabia that would warrant them being reported to the board of governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency.

snip

The diplomat said at least one of them was in the United States. He declined to elaborate, saying the agency "was not yet at the bottom of that story." But he said what is known about that company sheds new light on the activities of the network, known up to now for primarily supplying technology to North Korea, Libya and Iran as part of the process allowing them to make enriched uranium that can be used either to generate electricity or make weapons

emphasis added


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Those customers sound like the Halliburton route, judging by previous fines, etc. Could this be why Pork Chop Boy is getting so blustery?

Does anyone have any question that the anonymous source here is Dr. El Baradei himself? And yes, it does indeed bear very Halliburtonesque hallmarks.

This is what I meant when you did this..
leading people off on a wild goose chase in the wrong direction:

"To catch newbies up-we are awaiting indictments leading to WH"
Posted by Pallas180

for the exposure of CIA covert agent Valerie Plame.

Then we started looking at why Cheney and the WH and Rove and Dimson
went after Valerie Plame and exposed her.

We have come to the conclusion the exposure was not really payback to her husband, Joe Wilson former ambassador, who exposed that the letter stating Iraq had nuclear material and had purchased it from Niger was untrue and the letter was forged, which the administration had used in the State of Union and to convince the American people that Iraq had to be pre-emptively invaded.

We think that it is highly possible that because Valerie Plame's spy job was to track illegal WMD, she was getting close to finding out the
administration, or Halliburton, or Cheney was involved in illegal sale
of nuke materials to an enemy country which is against the US Law.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

When here we have serious credible evidence the Bush Gang were after Joe Wilson and "outed" his wife to get at him.

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=V...

"Some of those notes described efforts to discredit Wilson by the White House Iraq Group, including Rove, in July of last year as the group was struggling to counter Wilson's allegations that the White House had exaggerated the potential nuclear threat posed by Saddam Hussein to the United States. It was during that time that two senior administration officials leaked information to columnist Robert Novak that Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, was a covert CIA operative."

"A federal law-enforcement official said that "there was serious discussion at the highest levels of the Justice Department" as to whether it was "proper" or a "good idea" for Ashcroft to receive briefings not only regarding what Rove had told the FBI, but also what other evidence existed, such as Libby's notes, that might corroborate or contradict Rove's account."

assumptions..... it's also taking some license.

all of the thread is assumption, reaching scenarios, probable conclusions based on the information we are all able to gleen and contribute.

When you care to, you write quite well and engage in the same suppositions based on common sense and "connecting the dots" just
as all of us do.

When you don't care to you are quite obtuse and can become a pain in
the arse. So knock it off Tell and forget the nitpicking for fun -
stick to contributing some good stuff to the threads. (or I'm gonna stop talking to you)

BTW, having been an investigator for 14 years, I'm pretty good at
conclusions..... and you?

Thanks

Condescension does not become you dear . . .

We can't all be as wise and learned as your good self. I'm sure YOU are never wrong.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/oil/story/0,11319,1146372,00....

I don't think it's unreasonable that there may have been more than one reason for going after Plame, in addition to revenge/discredit for Wilson's NYT oped. For one thing, we know Cheney was visiting the CIA to apply pressure for Iraq. He may have met her then and maybe even met resistance from her as well. Maybe, if she was on Iraq, by removing her Cheney would get a friendlier CIA and send the message to tell him what he wants.

But could be Halliburton, or some other investigation that he wanted to shut down, as conjectured--all of those reasons, one of those reasons, any two. Need to know what exactly she was working on if you want to sort it out. Hopefully will come out soon.

prosecutors who were indicting Cheney and had thoroughly looked into Cheney's dealings, bribery; and what if the French were glad to share information with her in their files which were not germaine to their case, but would have been of interest to her and helpful in the
type of case she would build? ? ? hmmmmm?

Another good reason for Cheney and Rumsfeld's attack on the French,
boycott the French etc.

The target all along was Wilson. Plame was destined to be the bait. The simple fact of the matter is Bush was going to take them both "out", no matter what.

If Wilson had kept quiet and not said anything about the LIE, he would have been the scapegoat for the lie in the end. (Hold this thought)

Digressing for a moment..

I couldn't believe what I was hearing today. The media is still pushing Bush's Lie blaming bad intelligence as justification for the War. I'm not sure where Bush campaigned today. Wherever it was, he was still repeating the Lie. Contorting his face begging the audience to believe what he was telling them...

"THERE *WERE* WMD in IRAQ!"

WE, (not I) went to War with Iraq based on good/bad intelligence. (he likes using words and definitions to confuse..(ex..based on good intelligence one day.. the intelligence was bad the next day)

Now, forget that Wilson ever called Bush out.

If Wilson had *not* spoken up and revealed Bush's LIE in the SOTU Address, but instead had gone along with Bush and remained silent.

His silence would have been his undoing.

Wilson had been earmarked as Bush's exit strategy 4 yrs ago. I'll say it again in case you missed it the first time...

WILSON was what we would call in a Republican kind of way, BUSH'S EXIT STRATEGY from Iraq..a psychological exit strategy if you will.

About now,Bush would have said..Wilson betrayed our country. He was formerly the Ambassador to Iraq, a trusted diplomat. His wife a top secret CIA agent and lauded him to the hilt as trusted American. However, in short order his tone would change...to calling Wilson a betrayer of his country, a *TRAITOR*. Bush's speech would have directed anyone's anger over the War directly at Wilson. By the time Bush got through with his press briefing, Wilson would have replaced him, as the most hated man in the world.

Bush, (as he is still doing today,) is blaming bad CIA intelligence.

Watching Bush speak today, there was something missing from his spiel. Something that just rang hollow..The speech was the same ole..

I noticed he was practically turning himself inside out literally, laying over the top of the podium trying to convince his audience he was telling the Truth...what I saw lacking from his speech that would have been the lock on his speech... is PROOF!

What better PROOF could he have had if he could've pointed to Joe Wilson? And the big Plus, Joe's wife had been outed as a CIA operative. (Outing Valerie had been planned all along. The only question was when?..)

The *twofer* strikes again..Two birds with one stone.

Bush would have produced, as evidence *against* Wilson, his original report stating there were NO sales of yellow cake to Iraq. Against a document most likely forged (supposedly from Wilson) the report he used as the centerpiece for the SOTU Address, stating there was good
reason to believe yellow cake *was sold* to Iraq. (If those 16 words had gone openly Undisputed by Wilson. Bush had successfully set the TRAP..

I don't know if anyone remembers Clinton saying, Bush has no exit strategy to get out of Iraq. He said it several times months after the war began..The truth is Bush didn't want or need one. He had Wilson. The trap was set...now to reveal him as a full fledged Traitor.

Today as Bush was giving his speech he would have been pointing to Wilson as the Traitor responsible for the BAD intelligence that forced him to attack Iraq. And absolved himself completely of being responsible for the death and destruction that has followed because of the war.

(if you know anything about the story of Benedict Arnold) read the link if you don't.

By now, Wilson would be on the front pages of every newspaper in the World as the biggest Traitor to this country since the conspiracist, traitor, Benedict Arnold. And we'd all be starting threads waiting for news of a trial date. Bush didn't need or want and exit strategy for Iraq...We wanted and needed (and still needs)a fall guy to blame for the War.

The reason for the level of difficulty in putting this puzzle together is because the assumptions are wrong. Wilson changed the dynamics of the puzzle by going public..Bush never counted on Wilson writing a book either as testament to his Truth.

What if Wilson never said a word after the State of the Union Address? What if he never corrected the 16 words used to reinforce Bush's desperation to go to War? (silence is compliance)

When you revert back to the way the Bush familia planned this in the first place, then it all makes sense... The original vendetta against Wilson goes back before the 00'election. The key to this whole affair (to me) was when Wilson refused to donate to BushII's campaign...

That was when they were sure Wilson could no longer be trusted and declared him a traitor (to their camp) Wilson stated he was supporting Gore in 00 for president.. The Bushes are a vindictive bunch so they crafted a plan to make him pay, pay dearly for Wilson's betrayal by using him as the excuse for the mistake of the preemptive strike on Iraq.

They made sure to present the right opportunity to Plame, like bait on a hook, they'd slip Wilson's head into the noose.

Perfect...now Bush is off the hook!

(at least this is my take on it..)

"IF YOU REALLY WANT TO DO SOMETHING...make a phone call or send a paper letter. E-mails are quick and cheap and don't carry the weight of a phone call or a PAPER LETTER. Paul Begala says a hundred paper letters would change the direction of a news program." – DUer grasswire, 5/20/04

And another...

A TESTIMONIAL from another fellow DUer here:

"will you please write that to media when you feel that way?"
Posted by nofurylike
i work on media rapid resonse, and you would be surprised how much difference it makes to write them. the more of us do, the more some really do double-take.

most news sources have a contact link, and even just a short, 'look again' to them matters - complete coherent explanations, even more so!

so do thank-yous to those who get things correct, and honest. that reinforcement makes a distinct difference.

keep on


peace



And finally, PLEASE NOTE MY SIG LINE – TO CALL YOUR REPS, TOLL FREE!!!

OR, TRY (877) – 762 – 8762. It’ll get you there, too! (Thank you, DUer redqueen!)

OR, there’s also 1-888-508-2974. This, too, gets you to the Capitol Hill Switchboard TOLL FREE. But sometimes it gets tied up.

Please note, here, The World's Greatest Lists of Media Contacts – updated May 5, 2004– in the following thread:

LINK:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


IF THEY THINK WE DON’T CARE, THEY WON’T, EITHER!


Folks, many people have worked awfully hard to compile these contact names/numbers/emails/fax #s. Take advantage of them! And tell the people you're calling/writing/emailing/faxing - "FOLLOW UP! FOLLOW THE MONEY!"

I'll say it again - IF THEY THINK WE DON'T CARE, THEY WON'T, EITHER!!

on the internet.

Has newspaper and tv e mail addresses.

I mean hundreds of them

Could you find it or ask around and post it.

I spent some time yesterday looking but couldn't find it.

for oil and banking and other companies.

For Newbies, read this:

How the US Marines were used by Corporations in the 20th Century


In 70 years nothing has changed. Guess what? We have always been warmongering colonialists. It's just that we the American people didn't know it and apparently all of us here on DU still don't. How naive we are.

US Marine Corps Major-General Butler
is a man who won America's highest military award for bravery (the Congressional Medal of Honor) twice. His style of warfare was unusual not only for his personal courage, but for the energy he put into avoiding bloodshed when it was possible to achieve his aims in other ways. Not surprisingly, this engendered a remarkable loyalty among the men who served under him - and that loyalty was why certain men (in 1934)asked Butler to lead a military attack of 500,000 men on Washington DC, with the goal of capturing President Roosevelt (to which he replied he would gather 500,000 men to fight them)

but he is most famous for revealing, in his book, " War Is A Racket" how the United States Marines were used by the Corporations:

I helped make Mexico and especially

Tampico safe for American oil interests

in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba

a decent place for the National City

Bank boys to collect revenues in. I

helped in the raping of half-a-dozen

Central American republics for the benefit

of Wall Street. The record of racketeering

is long. I helped purify

Nicaragua for the international banking

house of Brown Brothers in 1909-12. I

brought light to the Dominican Republic

for American sugar interests in 1916.

I helped make Honduras `right' for

American fruit companies in 1903. In

China in 1927 I helped see to it that

Standard Oil went its way unmolested

... Looking back on it, I felt I might

have given Al Capone a few hints. The

best he could do was to operate this

racket in three city districts. We

Marines operated on three continents.

In his book War Is A Racket, Butler argued for a powerful navy, but one prohibited from travelling more than 200 miles from the US coastline. Military aircraft could travel no more than 500 miles from the US coast and the army would be prohibited from leaving the United States altogether. Butler also proposed that all workers in defence industries, from the lowest labourer to the highest executive, be limited to `thirty dollars a month, the same wage as the lads in the trenches get'. He also proposed that a declaration of war should be passed by a plebiscite in which only those subject to conscription would be eligible to vote.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1373/is_n11_ ...

:kick"

"did not misuse the info about WMD, he got the wrong information" (from the CIA), he says the "commission" is going to report.

Hellooooo? The CIA and others have already testified the WMD was taken out of the speech twice AND SOMEONE PUT IT BACK IN?

Hello, Cheney's private intel people?

Cheeze. This means there's not only a war against the admin by the
CIA, but there's a war between the real intel agency and the ones set
up by Cheney and Rumsfeld.!

He seems to be fond of Sufi stories. I suspect he may be trying to actualize this one, about the trickster/wise man Mulla Nasrudin:

One day the villagers thought they would play a joke on Nasrudin. As he was supposed to be a holy man of some indefinable sort, they went to him and asked him to preach a sermon in their mosque. He agreed.

When the day came, Nasrudin mounted the pulpit and spoke:

"O people! Do you know what I am going to tell you?"

"No, we do not know," they cried.

"Until you know, I cannot say. You are too ignorant to make a start on," said the Mulla, overcome with indignation that such ignorant people should waste his time. He descended from the pulpit and went home.

Slightly chagrined, a deputation went to his house again, and asked him to preach the following Friday, the day of prayer.

Nasrudin started his sermon with the same question as before.

This time the congregation answered, as one man:

"Yes, we know."

"In that case," said the Mulla, "there is no need for me to detain you longer. You may go." And he returned home.

Having been prevailed upon to preach for the third Friday in succession, he started his address as before:

"Do you know or do you not?"

The congregation was ready.

"Some of us do, and others do not."

"Excellent," said Nasrudin, "then let those who know communicate their knowledge to those who do not."

And he went home.

It's rather lovely.

There is a saying in certain disciplines:

"no more knowledge can come in until the knowledge you have is
given out"....that seems to be happening.

Interesting theory ..... but I'm here again.

Some things are easily explained .... some are harder to explain .... and some can't be explained at all. Suffice to say that circumstances beyond my control made communications impossible for a couple of days .... and not because I did not wish to participate.

But! I'm trying to review all that has gone on in the past few days.... on this thread ... not in the news!.... and will be up to speed by 11 pm est ..... please be patient, and don't doubt that I'm here for the long haul....

There really is something to be said for telling people there *is* a big picture and then letting them try to figure it out on their own.

I don't think I've ever seen a set of threads on DU as long yet as coherent as this one. (*Hey, man, nice set of threads!*)

Given that getting DU-ers to line up on anything is like the proverbial herding of cats, I'd say you've accomplished something of a miracle -- and done most of it by remote control.

on this thread .... and the process involved. Not how I see it, but to each his/her own.

Interesting theory ..... but I'm here again.

Some things are easily explained .... some are harder to explain .... and some can't be explained at all. Suffice to say that circumstances beyond my control made communications impossible for a couple of days .... and not because I did not wish to participate.

But! I'm trying to review all that has gone on in the past few days.... on this thread ... not in the news!.... and will be up to speed by 11 pm est ..... please be patient, and don't doubt that I'm here for the long haul....

Interesting theory ..... but I'm here again.

Some things are easily explained .... some are harder to explain .... and some can't be explained at all. Suffice to say that circumstances beyond my control made communications impossible for a couple of days .... and not because I did not wish to participate.

But! I'm trying to review all that has gone on in the past few days.... on this thread ... not in the news!.... and will be up to speed by 11 pm est ..... please be patient, and don't doubt that I'm here for the long haul....

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

"surveillance" of US citizens in the late '60s, etc. The best known example is the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. in Memphis. I'm sure, Pallas180, that you are familiar with the connections between J Edgar Hoover and the Army Intel, including "shared staff."

often hold meetings at army posts - and I'm sure they're busy tracking down all our real names, or have them already (are we more dangerous than the terra - ists? - but since they already have
a file on me, what the hell. One thing I did find out through a friend in the agency (before the wtc) is that you would be surprised
who they have files on.

Apparently everybody from councilmen to mayors to disrict attorneys and their spouses to judges in every small town, to every big town, and of course the rest of us regular jetsum and flotsum.

They just track people, not bothering them, until they get into positions of some power - and if the agency does not want them in a position of power, then they move on them with investigations, indictments, arrests. Poof - no more threat of the wrong people invading the power structure or having access.

It's always good to keep a low profile.

Dimson and Darth Vader I gather thought they were above that. I'm suspecting they're wrong.

People would do well to read the information available on the role of the army in "watching" the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr in Memphis in the spring of 1968.

That one I just posted there was, for want of a better term, a "master list" that I started to compile after seeing lots of people here dropping contact information into the mix, by single entries and LOOOOOOOOOONNNNNGGGGGGG threads - like maggrwaggr's.

The one here, just above, is the last update. But since then, I've found more, thanks to the continuing research and resourcefulness of other DUers here and a wee bit of my own, and incorporated them. I will put out a new update as soon as I can - will try to get to it tomorrow (Friday) because today's kinda shot around our house... (sick spousal unit).

But to answer your question, I'd go, first, to www.takebackthemedia.com - OR, just consult my earlier post on this thread.

their e mails busy.

How about composing a letter telling them how outraged we are
that this misadministration would even think of postponing elections.

And telling them we won't stand for it. We'll sit down and bring
this country's economy to a standstill.

something along those lines???

I wonder if it is in the archives somewhere --- I'll look.