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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:01 AM
Original message
Farenheit 9/11 Question
I have two problems with Farenheit 9/11. First of all Farenheit is a hard word to spell, and I've been typing it (wrong) a lot. But I guess that's just a whiney complaint, not worth bringing up.

The second isn't a problem, per se. Here's the problem. The emotional heart of the movie, the most wrenching scenes and the one's that have stuck with me involve Lila Lipscomb, and the soldiers in Iraq and what they are going through, and what they are being made to put Iraqis through. Those scenes are clearly terrible.

But an obvious reply from my conservative friends is that "Well that's war. In war bad things happen, and people who don't deserve to die, do die." I can, in a way, see their point. It's not hard to imagine a similar story being told about troops in World War 2, or any other conflict our troops have been involved in.

My response is that, yes this is the cost of war. And sometimes that cost must be paid, but in this case it seems clear that this war was more than unnecessary. President Bush made a number of bad decisions that led our troops to be put in harms way, and for that he should be held accountable. And we should be held accountable as well, for letting him put our troops in harms way.

But I was wondering if anybody had any further thoughts.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. Worth noting...
Edited on Wed Jul-07-04 08:04 AM by MrBenchley
In other wars we actually had been attacked before we started fighting....and we didn't start a war against folks who had nothing to do with the attack...and we weren't led by a gutless crook who yelled "Bring 'em on!" from behind....
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22181 Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. It wasn't war. It was organized mass murder.
Sure, "war is war". And sure, bad things happen. But sending young men into a war for your administration's own personal and financial gain is nothing more than organized mass murder.

That's what you were watching. You weren't watching merely a war. You were watching innocents get maimed, bleed and die so for the dollar bills that line the pockets of Bush, Cheney, Condi and more...

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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. "Yes, people die in war. That's why war must always be a last resort."
n/t
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
4. re the first prob: use F9/11, everybody will get it :-)
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shoelace414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
5. This is not a video game
When people die, they die. people seem to have no concept of what that means. it means they are dead. a flag is no replacement for a son/daughter or husband/wife.
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
6. Ask your friends...
if they want their sons, daughters, sisters, brothers, nieces, nephews, or grandchildren to play 'Well that's war!'?

If so, fine.

The draft is coming... sooner than people think.

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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
7. the cost has not been discussed nearly enough
they deliberately hid the predicted costs before the war, even fired people who tried telling us those costs.

They're hiding the costs now, by not counting civilian dead and by not allowing pictures taken of the coffins.

Moore is doing what the mainstream media should be doing, talking to people like Lipscomb, visiting the disabled veterans, and reminding us that people in Iraq had normal lives before the war.

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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
8. The question is not "Why do bad things happen in war?"
The question should have been "Are we fighting the right war?"

Of course bad things happen in war. :eye: The question that you have to ask each time out is "Is there a reason to fight this war?"

And for Iraq, the answer is a resounding "NO!"
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DarkPhenyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
9. WW2 wasn't an illegal war.
I have no serious issues with soldiers dying for good and noble causes. I have a serious problem with their lives being thrown away for ego and greed.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
10. Moore's point is that the war was baseless, and not worth the cost
Part of the movie demonstrated how Bush used fear to get us into an unnecessary war, and the other part, including Lila Lipscomb and the unidentified Iraqis grieving over their families, showed how horrible the cost of the war was.

Moore didn't spend a lot of time pointing out that there were no WMDs and no link to al-Quieda because that is front page news, and everyone knows. The film focused on what the media hasn't shown us. What they haven't shown us is the negative side of the war, like the dead children on both sides.

There was much more to the film than an emotional response to Lila Lipscomb, even if that does overshadow all other scenes. Watch it again, and notice how well Moore makes the case that Bush had no reason to invade, and how he was bent on invading anyway.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
11. Yes, war is horrible, which is why war is absolutely the last resort
Wars are horrible enough that they should only be engaged in for survival. Anything less and the horror of war will trump the reason for fighting it.

Certainly we don't go to war to fulfill some pipe dream of inexperienced daydreamers.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
12. bLame aL queda!!
sorry, was just channeLing the Long isLand freepette in the movie.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
13. You are making the mistake of accepting the notion that this was a just wa
and in war people die.

This was an illegal invasion and an unjust war. The Pope even told Bush that "if you go to Iraq, you go without God."

These people that died did so for a lie. That's the bottom line. Don't expect any of the RW'ers to agree with anything in this, but there is no doubt it is the truth.
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beyurslf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
14. And MM's response to that at the end is the best way to reply:
In summary he said the people who are forced to live in the worst neighborhoods, go to the worst schools, take the worst jobs are the first ones to step up and join the armed forces. They do so to protect our freedoms and with the promise that we will send them into harm's way only when absolutely necessary. Will they ever trust us again?

Gives me chills just to think about. I love how he said "trust us" saying WE ARE ALL culpable for this. Sure, we here may have been outspoken against the war. But the public whole heartedly accepted it.
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tandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
15. Die for what? Die for Whom?
This has NO similarities with WWII.

Iraq was contained. Saddam was no threat to the US. No WMD's and no link to 9/11. Nothing the UN couldn't have dealt with.

Is it alright to conquer every country we deem to have an oppressive regime to democratize the world? Who will be next? Syria, Iran, China, Cuba...? How about Saudia Arabia.

What f*cking assholes. I guess your conservative friends doesn't have children over there.

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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
16. The most striking thing about the movie for me . . .
"The 'haves' and the 'have mores.' Some people call you the elite. I call you my base." ...pResident Bush at a fund raiser

Al Qaeda means "the base." How appropriate, huh?

I was also surprised to find out that Bush's limo was pelted with eggs during the inaugural parade & he had to enter the White House through the back door.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-04 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yeah those were striking
As were the images of Administration officials admiting before 9/11 that old Saddam had been more or less contained successfully.
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