If and when indictments come down in the Plame case-thread2

[Moderator]

Link to thread 1:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1902738

[shraby]

1. Since I started this thread,

I'll be the first to add. How did the power behind the throne let George get so far out of whack? He probably had an agenda to fill. Yet a lot of people have become wise to their modus operandi. Did he move too fast, too unwisely (for them), was their plan flawed? Any opinions?

[KoKo]

2. To be a devil's advocate, here. What did they give him that they needed?

We are in Iraq. It's a mess but what was it I read...14 Military bases being built and the largest Embassy in the world?

The "ends justified the means." Now they can cut him loose.

Just speculation if one wants to continue the darker site and what they might have achieved in spite of themselves. :shrug:

[Disturbed]

3. What were the goals?

Have they been achieved?

I am hoping that the Plame case will derail the BushCo Machine but am not holding my breath.

The other thread is so long it takes a long time to load. Can we continue the discussion on this one, please?

[shraby]

5. They have

consolidated power in congress
come a long way toward consolidation of the media
started a mercenary army
put chinks in the constitution
gutted our country's security by sending the National Guard to Iraq
ramped up research and development of small nukes
gutted environmental programs
privatized and are privatizing education with the NCLB program

There's a start, and I'm sure there are more.

[never cry wolf]

8. Thank you shraby for starting this

and thanks to all the wonderful contributors, especially H2O Man. I have just spent nearly 4 hours reading through the original thread. I saw it when it was first started (like 5 posts)and didn't think much of it (not to offend anyone.) It is simply amazing the way it evolved into really, as one poster noted, a unified BFEE theory.

At numerous times in the thread I wanted to contribute only to read down a couple of posts to find someone else posting my thoughts. I truly believe that Bucky Fuller's theory of synergy (the sum of the parts being greater than the whole) is at work in this thread, as well as a bit of synchronicity.

As to your above post, shraby, you are correct. bunnypants has been very corporate friendly. Of course you can add the tax cuts for the elites, tax cuts and evasions for the corporations, an attempt to privatize medicare's prescription medicine....my god, the list is endless.

He followed their agenda, but they left the details up to him and his cohorts, which they promptly cheneyed up like all of shrubbies other ventures. By his ineptitude and arrogance, he has screwed up so badly he has shone a light upon their mischeif, and cockroaches prefer the dark. A loyal pawn, yes, but a clumsy and inneficient one. Just imagine if he and his minions had followed the DOD and DOS volumes prepared for a potential Iraq occupation and things had gone well, his approval numbers would still be in the 60's I bet.

Anyway, thanks again to all contributors to this amazing thread!!

[Eloriel]

135. * Raided the Treasury

* Lowered wages
* Lowered expectations for this generation and all following
* Fattened the pockets of most corporations and their execs
* Greased the legal wheels in favor of martial law and/or totalitarianism (should they want to do that), while retaining the illusion of democracy given the computerized voting machines that will give THEM the results they want while they give US the "privilege and right" of voting for whoever we please
* Eroded public education (goes with your point, but goes further than your point)

And I'm sure much more I'M not thinking of either.

[burrowowl]

7. You have a point

LBJ and Nixon were they puppets or being played?
Of course GWB can be cut loose now.
Who is Kerry and can he along with a renewed Congress and enough of the People waking up do something before it is too late?

[Lone_Wolf]

20. LBJ and Nixon were both puppets

A group of wealthy financial backers known as "The Wise Men" told LBJ that he was through and he not going to run for reelection. I believe this is a historical fact that people can do their own research on.

[burrowowl]

21. Will research

TR was 'progressive' because the Monied were afraid of the Populist movement and of course what was going in in Russia at the time. If the People don't wake up, we are sunk. And WWIII or IV depending is around the corner. It won't be like WWII.

[Lone_Wolf]

22. Very true...

The Elite only gives to Populist causes when it threatens to undermine the entire system.

[coeur_de_lion]

50. Thanks so much for starting this thread, shraby

[dweller]

4. thank you Mod!

this is important info, i for one appreciate the 2nd thread.

dp

[burrowowl]

6. Thank you for giving us part II

I would like to welcome:


kohodog (24 posts) Sun Jul-04-04 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #229
233. We need to think about the word "Republican"



This group may call themselves Republican, but at best they are facist. And do you really think Bush and Cheny are pulling the strings? Follow the money and I the only conclusion I come to Corporate greed and influence. And in a scary way, the individuals are secondary to the systems they created, not unlike Hal in "2001". Ultimatly Corporastions are created to make profit and while those at the top are making tons of money they are expendible because the only true measure of Corporation, by definition, is profitibility.
So we need to dump Bushco, restore civil liberties, and then get to work. A change qt the top is good, but only a start.

kohodog, the real Republicans have always been like this: they wanted to go on the side of Hitler in WWII; they wanted some Generals to overthrow FRD, etc.. Almost all of the legislation passed under FDR to protect the People has now been nullified or emasculated.

I strongly recommend Howard Zinn's: The People's History of the United States to give you a good base. Also Kevin Philips: Wealth and Democracy, thougth very dry at times, is a real eye-opener.

[kohodog]

102. They just seem so brazen now

And I don't remember it being like that. Maybe their hubris is catching up with them and they will be exposed to everyone, though I doubt everyone will see.

Even when the country was in it's formative stage there was concern about too much power in the hands of too few. And some thought that's how it should be.

But now it seems the power is in the hands of corporations whose only agenda (by definition) is to make profits. And they have no allegiance to any particular country and ultimately even their own leadership.

Burrowowl, thanks for the Zinn recommendation. I'll try to get to it soon...He's been on my list.

[calimary]

187. We DO need to rethink, and redefine, the word "republi-CON."

I posted this awhile back, but will happily revisit it for the benefit of those who are newer here.

There is a DUer known as Class Warrior, who from time to time posts a thread called a MEME MEMO - where we can come and post and discuss and kick around language concepts to REFRAME the debate, and REFRAME the agenda.

This all started, at least for the bad guys, with dear darling newt gangrene - OOPS, I mean gingrich - and his little GOPAC scheme. Along with his (unfortunately) effective organizing efforts and his obnoxious "backbench bomb-thrower" boasts, he also put out this little guidebook to all his minions about how to take over everything. Among his strategies: a vocabulary list - actually two - one of positive words and phrases to use whenever referring to republi-CONS and/or conservatives, and another of negative words and phrases to use whenever referring to Democrats and/or liberals.

His idea was to reframe the debate, in strategic manipulation of the language that would VERY subtly put a positive aroma on all things republi-CON, and a big, bad stench on anything Democrat.

For example: "Tax reform." It's a buzzphrase, or code, for tax cuts mainly for them and theirs. And nothing, ever, is mentioned about WHAT THOSE TAXES ACTUALLY GO TOWARD - THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT, especially to those in need, and things that just basically keep our country going. So, they have fostered a MOST ignorant and ill-informed disconnect, as well as a prejudice against all things TAX. WHEREAS, it should be pointed out that there is a LOT about living in America, and participating in all the wonderful freedoms and other things America offers, that costs money. Like getting your roads paved. Like funding research into conquering AIDS. Like making sure the air traffic controllers are on duty so planes don't fly into each other. Like patrolling our borders. Like funding our national defense. Like PAYING THE SALARIES of all those senators and congresspeople THEY THEMSELVES LIKE, AND their staffs and their drivers and their insurance and their perks and their postage and blah-blah-blah. Some of that tax money (dreadfully, I know) goes toward paying the salaries of their precious bush and cheney and the rest of the cabal. Even THEY would have to admit not all taxes are therefore evil. And even Grover Norquist would yell and scream and stomp his little feet if his garbage wasn't picked up regularly every week! But it's a lot easier to just furnish a lot of easy-to-plug-in words and buzz-phrases to oversimplify things. And it's an easy device for the lemmings out there to pick up and use.

They now issue wholesale talking points in the same way.

SO: I submit we need to do the same thing, but go it one better (because OURS is the truly correct side).

So let's start with the idea of "republi-CON." I submitted this concept as a way to refer to that group of opponents as "republi-CONS" as in CON-JOBS. "republi-CON JOBS" and "republi-CON GAMES" are good as a noun to describe what they do and what they're up to. "republi-CONMEN" and "republi-CONWOMEN" and "republi-CON-ARTISTS" are good descriptive wordings to describe EXACTLY what these people are.

Another way I've submitted for referring to the opponents is to call them the "IGMFU party." "IGMFU" (pronounced IGGum-foo) is an anagram for "I Got Mine, F-U." Because that, in my opinion, superbly and succinctly sums up what the republi-CONS are all about. Even better, there's a touch of humor to it. A point is ALWAYS most effectively delivered when there's a little humor wrapped around it. It's more memorable, pleases the listener because it gives them a chuckle, and leaves a favorable impression, the added benefit of which makes you look clever as hell.

Which brings me to possibly even a more lethal buzzphrase: "The Party of Cain." This is an exquisitely good one to use when fending off religious-right, fundamentalist whacko attack. They know the Bible, correct? (I try NEVER EVER EVER EVER to use the word "right" for ANY reason - it's been totally co-opted, tarnished, twisted, and bastardized.) Let's all remember one of the earliest stories in that beloved Bible of theirs (and many of ours, too, for that matter): that of Cain and Abel. We all know what happened and how it ended. And we all know how Cain responded when God came looking for the suspiciously missing Abel (him, really): "am I my brother's keeper?" My premise here is: if a Democrat were asked that, the answer would be some form of "yes, certainly! We all have to look out for one another, don't we?" If you ask a republi-CON that question, you know what the answer is: "HELL NO! FUCK (or in this day and age, CHENEY) my brother! I've got mine and I'm KEEPING IT! Let him go get his OWN!" Hence: "The Party of Cain."

Because they ARE.

REPETITION IS KEY, though.

This, or other strategic wording, should be used EACH AND EVERY TIME you refer to that party, or the people in it. Enough people doing that, and doing so often enough, will provide the same kind of effective repetition that the limbots and other rush-wannabes of the world push, incessantly, on their dittoheads. After awhile, it can't help but sink in. You may have heard the old adage about how repetition is everything. You repeat something often enough, and it becomes fact. Or truth. Or widely-acknowledged as fitting and proper and relevant. Whether it's good or not. Whether it's true or not. Whether it makes sense or not.

So we need to do that same thing. Eventually OUR memes will sink in and become accepted, systemically, as fact.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY URGENT/ESSENTIAL that we take back our country from these bastards. To do that, we have to take back the agenda. To do THAT, we have to take back the language, and reshape the way that agenda is perceived and understood. Proper, strategic use of language can help promote good vibes and positive reaction and a positive flavor to our viewpoints, ideals, and projects/programs, AND wrap the enemy, and everything they're about, in a nice, subtle stench of negativity. Once you start making all that rush-promotion and Pox "News" crap take on a negative aura, the point's been made, and delivered, right down into the bone marrow. It's unconscious, and subliminal. And it takes root, deep down. THAT'S how we get 'em.

I am so sorry this is long. But there's a lot to share. I know this stuff works. "IGMFU" was an idea my dad came up with, in his heyday as a very successful and clever sales/ad executive. This stuff works. All you have to do is try it, repeat it, and come up with your own versions to try and repeat. And repeat again. If you keep hammering it home, it will BECOME hammered home.

Thank you for suffering through this!

[never cry wolf]

198. Quite a long post, but admirable. here's a link to...

exactly what you are talking about. It really is a good article about how the RW has taken over the media talking points.

tp://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_lakoff.shtml

[calimary]

212. Oh yeah! I saw this, and LOVED it. Thanks for posting it again.

This guy has it absolutely correct. He should be consulting the Kerry campaign.

[H2O Man]

9. Is everyone here?

That first thread was so much fun that we need to keep it going. I have to say that was a real pleasure for me .... and I have thoroughly enjoyed and valued DU before that thread .... but that took our discussions to a higher ground. Let's keep going!

I first want to respond to a comment by friend Stephanie regarding the Report from Iron Mountain .... Leonard Lewin wrote it as a novel, and it might be more accurate to call it a fable .... but it was based in very large part on a study commissioned by Defense Secretary Robert McNamara in August of 1963.

Lewin's fable attributes the information to "the Special Study Group in 1966" which was an organization so highly classified that there was no record of who belonged, what sectors of government or private business were involved, etc. So, while you are correct in that it was not a FACTUAL account -- it spoke to some truths. I did not mean to imply that it was other than that ..... I think it is of value as a fable.

Next, LoudSue: Yes .... there is an attack on the Constitution, and there is a coordinated effort to create a crisis .... I have referred to the "balance of power" .... and that balance implies the separation of those powers. Rather than using the European style of concentrated authority in a single institution, the Founding Fathers used a Native American concept .... the Iroquois had offset powers to avoid SPECIFICALLY one clan gaining an elite status .... which sounds a heck of a lot like the 51st Federalist Paper's noting that having three distinct branches with independent leaders in each provides for the "necessary constitutional means and personal motives to resist encroachments of the others."

Like the Iroquois Grand Council, our federal government has an built-in inertia that frustrates people who want to do things quickly. Yet this inertia, as Justice Brandeis noted, "(is) not to promote efficiency but to preclude the exercise of arbitrary power."

In his classic "The Imperial Presidency," Arthur Schlesinger notes that the executive office by its nature took an initiative in leadership, to move past that inertia. (In and of itself, a good idea; it creates greater tension between the executive and legislative & judicial branches .... and that's good.)

However, the presidents of both parties began using ill-defined war powers from "international crises" to move from a "presidential primacy, so indispensable to the political order" to a presidential supremacy. Schlesinger notes that by 1970, the US president had become "the most absolute monarch (with the possible exception of Mao Tse-tung of China) among the great powers of the world."

So you hit the nail on the head .... this group, the power elite, want a supreme president, with a unjust Supreme Court that will DENY the constitutional protections it should uphold, and a congress with less authority than a student council in a southern Baptist school. They are pushing an agenda. They are demanding a confrontation. Think of the personality of this fool george w. bush .... a rigid authoritarian who loves conflict. That's why they selected him for the position he now is in.

[Edmond Dantes]

10. You certainly have my undivided attention.

Many thanks for your wise insights. How fortunate we all are to have you among us. I had almost given up all hope of catching a glimpse of the big picture before it is too late.

Respectfully,
Ewan I. (smile)

[shraby]

11. Concerning the Supreme Court...

there are some of the members who are of the mind to retire, but have apparently put it off for this year since they usually retire at the end of their session and they didn't. Could it be they held off so they could see who is in the white house in November in order to avoid the court going totally conservative?

[H2O Man]

14. Good question.

Back in about December, a number of us discussed Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. Some people said they had heard things that indicated she had second thoughts about the decision to put bush into office. A few believe her to be a sincere and decent person, and I think that they said she fit into the group you mention.

I don't believe that. I strongly recommend that people interested in the Supreme Court read Vince Bugliosi's "The Betrayal of America: How the Supreme Court Undermined the Constitution and Chose Our President." (The forewords by Molly Ivins and Gerry Spence are worth the price of the book alone -- two of the clearest thinkers in the country!)

Bugliosi details therole O'Connor played, from her reaction the night of the election, to her taking a leading role in what can only be described as a criminal act on the part of the court.

"I am not a lawyer, but I do know that when Bugliosi quotes a Yale law professor as saying the day of the Bush v Gore decision was 'like the day of the Kennedy assassination' for him and many of his colleagues, this is not an exaggeration." -Molly Ivins

"It is a pathetic spectacle that Bugliosi beckons us to behold -- this high, hallowed court and its revered majority sold out to Power."-Gerry Spence

[Edmond Dantes]

17. Regarding O'Connor.

It's my understanding that DOJ's Office of Legal Counsel, a bastion of neoconservative lawyers, stopped hiring her former law clerks because they are viewed as being insufficiently reliable in terms of maintaining unwavering commitment to the neocon agenda.

That's the scuttlebutt, anyway.

And which Yale Law prof said "Bush v Gore decision was 'like the day of the Kennedy assassination' for him and many of his colleagues."? Bruce Ackerman? The late Burke Marshall?

[H2O Man]

24. Quoting from Bugliosi, pgs 46-7:

(from his "The Betrayal of America")

"As the December 25 Time capsulized it, 'A sizable number of critics, from law professors to some of the Court's own members, have attacked the ruling as ...politically motivated.' A sampling from a few law professors: Vanderbilt professor Suzanna Sherry said, 'There is really very little way to reconcile this opinion other than they wanted Bush to win.' Yale's Mar lamented that 'for Supreme Court watchers this case will be like BC and AD. For many of my colleagues, this was like the day President Kennedy was assassinated. Many of us (had) thought that courts do not act in openly political fashion.' Harvard law professor Randall Kennedy called the decision 'outrageous.' "

[Edmond Dantes]

28. Thanks for quote. Yale's "Mar"? Is this Prof. Akhil Amar?

[Political_Junkie]

27. I've read excerpts of Bugliosi's book,

wasn't there something about O'Connor wanting to retire too, but she wanted to get a republican president in first?

[Stephanie]

35. Yes, that was the reported quote by her husband at a party

during the recount.

[Political_Junkie]

44. Thanks, Stephanie,

can't remember where I read that.
I gotta get my butt to bed, but I'll check back with this awesome thread in the morning! Night All.

[Stephanie]

84. For the record, just so we're clear, it was widely reported

http://www.gwbushwatch.com/reuters1.htm

Justice O'Connor Upset When Seemed Gore Won -Report
Story Filed: Sunday, December 17, 2000 2:12 PM EST

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor was upset during an election-night party when she heard Florida was first called for Vice President Al Gore, exclaiming, ''this is terrible,'' according to a report in Newsweek magazine released on Sunday.

The report said O'Connor made the comment at about 8 p.m. on Nov. 7, and declared that meant the election was ``over'' because Gore had also won two other key states.

Quoting two eyewitnesses to her comments, Newsweek said that O'Connor then walked off to get a plate of food, and her husband, John, explained to friends and acquaintances that she was upset because they wanted to retire to Arizona and a Gore presidency meant they would have to wait another four years because she did not want a Democrat to name her successor.

Not long after Florida was called for Gore, news organizations retracted the call and said Florida was too close to be awarded to either candidate. The state was then called for Bush, but again that call was retracted and the race remained in limbo for five weeks.

O'Connor, 70, had been Republican majority leader of the Arizona State Senate before being appointed to the U.S. Supreme Court by President Ronald Reagan in 1981. <more>

[ClassWarrior]

86. But why, then, hasn't she stepped down yet?

I heard too that she was waiting to retire till a repli-CON took office. If she wants to be replaced by another fascist, then why hasn't she retired yet?

Thanks, by the way, for all the great info.

[Political_Junkie]

99. Maybe because this republican

president has been having such a hard time with his nominees that she is afraid that her successor will still not be what she had in mind. The democrats are keeping a tight rein on Bush's appointments that he has to make deals with them to get anyone appointed, chances are she can see that he'll never get anyone in there that matches her ideology.

[RainDog]

122. The comment has been made public via Bugliosi

If O'Conner were to resign now, she would have to answer all the charges that she (and by extension, her fellow right wing judges) were not impartial, were not putting political decisions before rule of law in this nation, and all that.

Of course, in light of Scalia's big fuck you to America about his possible conflict of interest in the Cheney ruling, you'd think none of them would give a shit about appearances or actualities... obviously Scalia doesn't.

but O'Conner may have more concern for her reputation and the reputation of the Court.

[never cry wolf]

123. I also think she may have a shred of morals left

I think the entire SCOTUS is well aware of what is going on and realizes that although bunnypants has an R after his name, that the admin is really made up of radicals and they don't like what he has been doing. I think you can see it in the way their ruling have been progressively going against the admin, the sodomy law, affirmative action, the gitmo ruling recently.

I bet if they knew in 2000 what they know now Gore would have won 6-3 or 7-2. There are lots of pissed off old time repubs.

[alfredo]

12. How much influence does the

philosophy of Leo Strauss have over this administration?

[shraby]

16. I googled Abram Shulsky

who is director of the office of special plans. Here is the link, and there is a link on the page to a Seymour Hersh article. Abram was apparently a student of Leo Strauss thinking.
<http://www.etherzone.com/2003/cron051503.shtml>

[alfredo]

74. Intresting article.

Thanks for turning me onto it.

[Zan_of_Texas]

140. Re: Shulsky

Yes, that article does shed some light on Shulsky and Leo Strauss. But, the author seems to be into that whole crock about how the US was founded to be a Christian nation: "America, once blessed with faith in the One True God and founded under His dominion." Jefferson especially had no interest in founding a Christian nation. I have no interest in living in a nation run by Dominionists -- they are pretty scary.

Anyway, I don't want to sideline the great discussion. As for the Straussians, that is an interesting way to figure out some of the underlying foundations of their manuevering -- they suspend the rules we play by. Elitism, secrecy, power are the bywords, not democracy.

Chalabi, by the way, was a 1969 Ph.D. from U. of Chicago, the Straussian hotbed. Here's one article

Neo-Cons, Fundies, Feddies, and Con-Artists

By Francis A. Boyle

September 18, 2003:
Information Clearinghouse
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6050.htm

[alfredo]

151. Thanks for the link. What I found interesting was seeing the

Christian take on the Straussians. It did fill me in a bit on Shulsky.

[iconoclastic cat]

13. Thanks and a question

H2Oman:
First, I want to thank you for sticking with this discussion; you have enlightened me on many interesting issues.

Now, I must apologize for asking you to explain something that you and others have discussed in the first posting, but I am still confused. My confusion derives from what appears to be a contradiction. You say that the following issues are true: Fitzgerald will not be able to indict Bush or Cheney; criminal charges cannot be brought until Bush and Cheney are out of office (a big "if"!); and the media will not adequately cover the grand jury's determination. If these factors are in fact reality, what could possibly happen on the 14th that would require me to buy champagne?

Thanks!

This is bending my mind more than any graduate course, by the way.

[burrowowl]

15. They can't indict

Bu$h/Cheney because they haven't been impeached or could they indict them and this could be grounds for impeachment, Wish John Dean would post here.

[Pallas180]

33. Rehnquist took care of that when he ruled a sitting President could

be sued civilly (not as a civil person, but as a civil lawsuit :>)

If a sitting president could be sued civilly, then, to me it follows
that criminal charges could be brought against the same officials.

Which brings up another question. If they, the WH officials, veep,
assistants to veeps and pResidents could not be charged criminally,
then why would they all be consulting CRIMINAL lawyers in the matter
of the Plame case? I think their thinking is that they can be charged as was the attempt on Clinton and subsequent rulings by Rehnquist and the Supremes affirming. Heh, heh. Backfiring on them.

This may be a matter that would come before the Supremes in the future. Can a sitting ass (forgive my humor) be criminally charged while sitting?

Something else makes me think the WH is going to fight this and bring it before the Supremes.

Olson has quit his government legal job. He couldn't represent dimson as part of the government in this matter. It would have to be as a private attorney. Olson was the one who fought before the Rehnquist court to have them rule on no more Florida counting, along with Baker III, thus giving the election to dimson.

Although we all know that the once revered and now villified and dishonored Supremes (and they know we know) favor the cabal, I suspect the crows are getting a little nervous about the people.

I am given this idea by the fact that they have more or less upheld the Geneva convention law and ruled against the cabal in the matter of holding prisoners without due process, without lawyers, etc.in their last and most recent ruling.

Perhaps that is one more message from the "powers that be" to dimson and company or maybe they are trying to save their own faces - and skin. IMHO it's the latter.

[H2O Man]

26. July 14th:

It's not going to be a case of a Fox News Alert saying bush & cheney have been accused of wrong-doing, and are considering an early retirement. But I think there is going to be significant releases of information about the grand jury's findings .... and because you will be here, on DU .... rather than on Fox, we will be able to examine the significance of that information.

It will be likely that we see the slimmy Elliot Abrams from Iran-Contra, and Lewis "Scooter" Libby indicted. (What adult allows people to call them "Scooter"???) This will lead to Rove .... a soft and weak punk who will turn on his friends to avoid jail time. And this brings us directly into dick cheney's office.

I suggest that people consider reviewing any one of a number of good books on Watergate, to have an appreciation for how this will progress. Obviously, it is not going to be exact.

I also urge the older folk on here to continue to post their memories of that era .... do you men & women remember feeling impatient, and wanting the process to speed towards its conclusion? Boy, I sure do. But it doesn't happen that way.

Thus, I think you might want something good to sip as a group of us celebrate the slow but sure progress being made.

I like what you said about the graduate class .... this does have that type of atmosphere, actually. Good call.

[Pallas180]

36. Dear H20 - I deeply reject being called "the older folk" however

no, there was not a sense of impatience at all.

It was a sense of amazement. It was knowing this was historic, day after day watching the case and facts being brought forth. It wasn't that it was shocking, but that it was mesmerizing. No one living had
ever seen anything like it.

And what Nixon did, was a pale fore-runner of what this cabal has done. Nixon moved slowly toward these same goals. He had the temerity to issue an edict to universities asking them not to admit
so many Jews(.03 of the world's population) studying medicine and law in order "to give others a chance".

Dimson moved very very quickly, immediately, to undo the progressive programs of the last 70 years and void the Constitution.

Both regimes adhere to the flavor of Zig Heil. I don't say that lightly. All of Europe recognizes it and I don't just mean the officials, but the populace of the European countries know fascism when they see it.

[H2O Man]

57. I mean "older folks" as a respectful description....

I find our very fake "youth oriented" culture curious ..... in the context of my up-bringing, people who were around 45-55 were held in very high esteem ..... and "elders," meaning over 70, were treasures. The reason being that they had a wealth of experience to draw upon.

But you ... well, hmmmm ... your message is timeless! (grin) How's that?

I enjoy what you are saying, both about Nixon, and about how the Europeans view bush & friends. It's odd that Nixon actually did more for Native Americans than any other American president. Yet in his personal life, he expressed some anti-Indian feelings. He seemed to support the idea of helping Indians remain separate .... which was not entirely bad .... I think that Nixon's views of Jewish people were similar to his views of Indians.... in that he viewed them as "others," and somehow not fully American.

Last week I had an interesting conversation on DU with a person about some of the things C.G. Jung noted about the rise of the monster in Germany ..... things Jung saw in the early 1900s that indicated that what he called "the blond beast" was stirring in its sleep.... and I think its fair to say that many people around the world see bush & friends as appealing to the same archetypal images.

[merh]

65. Waterman - do you see anything coming from the SECs

investigation of Haliburton and the investigation that has been on going into Haliburton while cheney was CEO? I've read that the French have been anxious to indict him for a several years now.

[H2O Man]

76. While I hope so,

I have to admit it's not an area that I am well-versed enough to say. I'm perhaps a little more familiar with Plame, CI/MI affairs, etc. There is, of course, a good amount of over-lap in these issues.

Cheney, Ken Lay, Haliburton, Enron .... criminals running criminal systems that produce criminal results. But the legal complexities in indicting and convicting these cases is incredibly difficult.

What I am more confident in saying though is that all of these issues becoming know to the American public has significantly lowered bush's "trust" level. You know a president never gets that trust back. At the end of his life, Nixon attempted to take the role of an elder statesman. He wrote some interesting books. People listened to his opinion with interest. But not with trust.

[shraby]

78. The investigation into

Haliburton by the French may grow some legs as France is a whole different country with not a little animosity toward Bush and co. In fact this animosity could be the basis for the interest in starting an investigation. It's obvious that Chirac has no love for our current administration and may be pushing it in the background.

[merh]

81. It would be interesting if France returned its indictments at the same

time or shortly after the Plame indictments. I truly believe the French investigation and cheney's culpability in the Haliburton bribe scandals in Nigeria are the real reason why the admin began it's anti-France campaign. They wanted to make the people hate France so that the French's investigation into Haliburton and cheney would be given little, if any credence.

I am not familiar with the SEC investigation, I had just read they it had begun a separate investigation into Haliburton.

Thanks again for your posts.

[Zan_of_Texas]

141. Well, the French and Russians

had contracts in Iraq before we went in, is my understanding.

They opposed US invasion of Iraq. They looked from here like peace loving nations, but I believe the contracts in place favored them at the time, and they feared that US toppling Saddam would put them out of favor.

Of course, the PEOPLE of Europe and the world opposed the invasion, and not because they had Q(*&#@$ contracts.

[Pallas180]

144. Iraq owed France & others several billion dollars - which dimson

wanted to obliterate - remember his asking G8 to forgive Iraq its
debts? - to which the answer was no.

If someone owed you several billion, and they changed presidents, would you think it was a reason to allow their treasury not to pay
its debt?

And oh yes, I forgot to mention, and if that someone OWNED OIL WELLS,
would you say, aw forget it, you don't have to pay me. Go ahead and
give your new occupier all the money you owe me through your oil wells?

Well would you?

Nah, I didn't think so. Not in a pigs' eye.

[merh]

178. And maybe it is that the French doubted the integrity of the admin

because of cheney and his Haliburton bribes in Nigeria. In addition, the French may have been aware of the questionable relationship that the bush family has with the saudis and they doubted the sincerity of the U.S. in its efforts to free Iraq.

[Swamp Rat]

179. We could explore this concept of "otherness" perhaps in a different thread

- This is a prescient topic since it is an operator currently in use by Bush&Co. The most obvious manifestation drips from the salivating tongues of fascist propagandists like O'Reilly, Hannity, Savage, and Limbaugh, when they are dehumanizing "others."

Not only has treason been committed by Bush&Co in Plamegate, but all those who aided and abetted in their numerous, nefarious crimes. This includes members of the media. They shall be tried in the court of public opinion and some of them perhaps worse.

[H2O Man]

214. This is a fine thread to discuss this issue on.....

because it is, as you have noted, part and parcel of the divisive tactics of this administration.

Many years ago, when I was young, when I had to fill out various paperwork, it would have catagories such as "race" (which is ridiculous): __ white __black ___Indian ___hispanic __Asian __other

I always thought I was "other." After spending many years trying to get my fellow dyslexics to untie, I thought about organizing "others." I think there are a lot of "others" on DU.

On a more serious note, you are correct: this administration has learned from the best in history how to de-humanize anyone different than themselves. This includes the "non-voter" status of black people in Florida who tend to vote for democrat. It includes Islamic people who may or may not be of "middle-eastern" heritage. It includes millions of children who live in middle class and poor homes. There are many, many more.

The ugly tone they take should be alarming for every American. A culture that is paranoid that an ill-defined "others" will attack them; that are willing to commit to "pre-emptive" wars to curb the "potential aggression" of "others;" who are being exposed to the most violent images and hateful speech attacking "others" .... these qualities lead in a direction --EVERY TIME THEY OCCURE IN THIS MANNER-- that we should never venture.

[Swamp Rat]

218. We should be outright scared that propagandists are calling for genocide.

O'Reilly and Hannity in their zeal remind me of Rudolph Hess and other historical figures.

Since I have been studying colonization as it relates to historical literature/evidence describing "cannibalism" as a savage practice, I have become even more intrigued by the intellectual constructs used to control groups of people. Queen Isabella codified a system that practiced genocide in order to plunder the resources of the New World. She and the masterminds behind the "Cannibal Law of 1503" played on the "otherness" of the Americans and their culture in order to foment antipathy against them.

So, perhaps we can draw similar distinctions if we compare methodologies of the Bush administration with others that have a similar M.O. Isabella had a Gutenberg-like press and Bush has a coterie of Hess-like propagandists.

[shraby]

240. Whenever I find anything like that

on an application or form, I put in the space other "human"

[scarletwoman]

68. "Sense of amazement" -- Well put!

I was in my early 20's during the Watergate hearings, living in the then-hippie paradise of the West Bank in Minneapolis. A whole group of us would meet up at a local tavern to watch the hearings, it was a real social occasion.

While we were of course all heartily rooting for Nixon's downfall, what I remember most clearly is our sense of fascination with watching this historic event unfold. I certainly don't remember impatience; the feeling of excitement lay as much in bearing witness to the process as in any anticipation of the hoped for result.

Looking back on it, it seems to me that it was much like how one gets into reading an interesting novel. Your curiosity is aroused, of course -- wondering how the story line will come out in the end -- but that doesn't mean you want to immediately flip to the back pages to find out. You willingly commit yourself to allowing the story to unfold page by page, because the journey itself is so engaging.

sw

Oh, and I just have to add -- I don't mind in the least being referred to as an "older folk". I am delighted to have been around for as long as I have. :hippie:

[Pallas180]

143. Scarletwoman, Exactly. What was the name of the Senator - Sam ?

he was the star of the show.....played the old boy southern country bumpkin lawyer act and suckered them all with his friendly demeanor, lack of rancor,southern sayings: "my pappy used to say...".

If he hadn't run it like he did, perhaps there would have been
partisanship.

In retrospect, they did one terriffic job.

On the other hand, my father was a died in the wool republican and even in the 1980's if you said one word against Nixon, he wouldn't speak to you for weeks.

My household also contains a far right winger, and we can't even watch television news in the same room. I yell at the television spouting propaganda, he watches Fox and believes every word.

[never cry wolf]

145. Sen. Sam Ervin

I believe that is who you are thinking of.

http://home.att.net/~howington/sam.html

[Pallas180]

148. Absolutely right Steviet, Sam Ervin. And did you know that

was where Hillary Rodham, then Clinton, got her start?

She was an assistant, intern on the impeachment. Still in college
I believe or just graduated.

The Cuban crisis, when JFK went on television to tell us we were
facing annihilation, and his assassination

The Nixon impeachment

and the Berlin wall coming down strike me as the most memorable and
important events of the 20th century or at least of my memory.

Then again - we are in the middle of "we shall see what we shall see"
now.

[Occulus]

137. Why do you think I keep referring to the 'Right'

as the Reich?

Everything I've read about Hitler's rise to power reminds me of the current attitudes of the Right- and I don't say that lightly either.

[burrowowl]

42. As an older folk

I was pretty amazed Nixon got re-elected but I remember going to the student union between classes and doing homework and my TA lesson plans at the student union during the impeachment hearings. Remeber going to live in France for 20 years in 1974 thinking America was on the right track. That thought didn't last long. Was totally amazed Ray-gun got elected twice, as were almost all my French friends. Didn't realize how very bad it was brainwashing-wise until I saw the recent Raygun lovefest on the media.

[never cry wolf]

43. In autumn of 1972....

I was a freshman at Northern Illinois University. I was fairly apolitical at the time, though against the war. Poly Sci was a required course and taught by TAs showing videos from the main Prof., Martin Diamond. During one of the required face to face small group meetings with the Prof. himself, Watergate came up, at that time it was still small news. He said that in his opinion it was going to bring down Nixon. We were all flabbergasted!!!

Upon further research, it appears Dr. Diamond was an original Straussian, ewwwwwwww. Glad I was just a frosh and all I took out of it were his Watergate comments.

Martin Diamond (1919-1977) - One of the troika of famous first-generation Straussians (with Jaffa and Eidelberg) to focus on the American founding; author of Electoral College and the American Idea of Democracy, Founding of the Democratic Republic, and, with Walter Berns and Norman Ornstein, After the People Vote: A Guide to the Electoral College. From this obituary: "Martin Diamond opened the door to the American founding. Through those doors have entered students and colleagues of Martin Diamond, yet unnumbered. They have recalled and are recalling past political arts as a guide to present political understanding. Through those doors they have carried the dried and decaying bones of political judgment, to bear flesh anew, nourished by the marrow of unblinking patriotism though moved by the sinews of inquiry." (books)

Interesting site I found here, Straussian.net: http://www2.bc.edu/~wilsonop/teachers.html

http://peopleslobby.tripod.com/georgewill72877voguishdarling.htm

[LizW]

71. Impatient about Watergate?

No, I don't remember being impatient. I remember trying to understand it all and being amazed that it was happening.

It was agonizingly slow. The Watergate burglars were indicted in September of '72. The enormity of the CREEP wrongdoing began to be revealed in October. http://tinyurl.com/ytekh

Then there was the election, and it was February of '73 before the Senate Watergate Committee was established. After the establishment of the Committee, it was over a year before there were indictments for the cover-up over 21 months after the break-in.

And even once there were indictments of people inside the White House, Nixon didn't go quietly. It took everything going against him, the Supreme Court, public opinion, Congress, and eventually, the Republicans themselves, to get him to go.

I remember my parents being very anxious. It was a real crisis, and no one knew what was going to happen.

[The Stranger]

126. I hate to rain on the parade here, but the difference between Watergate

and the current catastrophe is the media. During Watergate, we had some semblence of journalism practiced by the media. Those days are gone now. I am afraid that anything can be buried.

[H2O Man]

132. You are correct that the media

is very different than it was 30 years ago. However, there are far more outlets available today.

The Plame issue was not reported in any meaningful way by the major media sources. But that lack of reporting played no meaningful role in having a federal grand jury investigate it. None at all.

We've had people make wonderful jokes on part one of this thread about Fox News interrupting reports on the Plame investigations to update the nation on Michael Jackson's sex life. And despite an on-going efforts to bury this story, it hasn't gone away in the most important forum : the court system.

[wtmusic]

154. Far more media outlets and less scrutiny

The number is irrelevant

[H2O Man]

213. Not at all .....

The number is very relevant. There are enough sources available that there is no good excuse for being ignorant in this day and age. For people to complain, for example, about the content of Fox News over and over is foolishness. There are so many options available that all serious schools of thought can find representation in the media, and anyone who has an ounce of ambition can find the truth.

While complaining and finding a negative aspect to virtually everything is an art of sorts, it becomes a drag that holds back the artist's ability to engage in meaningful actions. Like what action, you may ask? Well, anyone who complains about the media has the option of creating their own newsletter, etc.

Being negative and not engaging in positive actions is the very definition of irrelevancy.

[burrowowl]

215. For those that have computers

the internet or the time to go to the library and use the computers there. But many working people with families (especially, the mothers) don't have the time and I think that the American workers non-leisure is almost on purpose. Keep their nose to the grindstone and they can't think.

[kohodog]

217. Greenspan tries to keep unemployment from getting to low

in order to keep wages depressed which has the effect of keeping people who are employrd willing to work harder for less. Everywhere I go one person is doing the work of two or three because of layoffs, and they rarely get raises. It is called "productivity." I call it the end of the middle class.

[H2O Man]

220. Valid points.

There are, as you point out, many people without the resources to access the true and important-to-them information. Let's call them "Group A."

There are also many people, including a few on DU, who complain that there are not enough medias resources reporting the true and important issues. These are "Group B."

Three things: first, I believe it is way beyond urgent that we begin to focus our energy on positive actions. Our goal has to be victory. So I want to throw away the negative attitudes, to free-up the good people who are held back by them. Let's do a simple exercise:

Second, part of that exercise is for Group B to get off their hindquarters, and help in conducting & producing the "media" that provides that true and important information to Group A. It can be done .... and MUST be done in order for us to win.

Three, we do have the ability to exercise our media skills on other levels. Late last week, on the original page #1 of this thread, I quoted a source regarding Valerie Plame being involved in an investigation of the marketing of WMD components, when the White House exposed her. I asked what investigation the WH needed to derail? Many, many people said that this information & question opened their eyes! Well, for every one of us who writes a letter-to-the-editor of our local newspaper, we can be sure it will open the eyes of still another group of people.

When we think about the negatives, we close doors of opportunity for ourselves. We need to be positive in order to win.

[The Stranger]

271. There is a very powerful force that keeps Group A from accessing the media

you describe. It is called denial. It is easier to remain in denial than to face what this Administration has done in nearly every political sphere. It is easier to remain in denial than to accept the fact that the U.S. waged war killing tens of thousands based on lies, has tortured and murdered people in violation of international law, has imprisoned its own citizenry indefinitely and without charges or access to counsel, even the fact that it has continued to dispossess all of those whom are not the power elite of any access to healthcare, education, and jobs.

[wtmusic]

219. Disagree 100%

Name one television news source that was questioning the wisdom of going to war in Iraq last year. One. *drums fingers on desk*

Probably 90% of viewers get their news from the same 5 channels. You are assuming that the general public has an ounce of ambition, and is willing to look elsewhere.

Re: creating my own newsletter, that's wonderful. Great for posting my Aunt Marge's brownie recipe, but very unlikely to influence the swing vote in Ohio.

You're assuming this is negative...not at all. It's more positive to be critical, and realistic--than to believe because we now have 200 cable channels and thousands of political websites that anything but the top five or ten has a major impact on politics.

[H2O Man]

222. That's fine.

Disagreement is a good thing sometimes. Just above your post, I put a message to another individual (I believe that your's is 219, and mine is 220). That person had noted that there were people without the resources to access the more informative media.

There are too many examples of high quality and effective newsletters around for your comment about Aunt Marge's brownie recipe to sound like anything but an excuse for not trying. Social change never comes on the wheels of inevitability, as King noted, but only by the dedicated work of those who believed in a positive vision of the future.

Again, there are many great newsletters. There are none built upon a foundation of negative attitudes, or self-defeating inaction.

[wtmusic]

226. Well, before you accuse me of inaction

I've probably averaged about 15 hours a week of community service over the past year and a half. I'm not patting myself on the back, because there are many, many people who do more than I do, and I could be doing much more.

Right now, IMO media conglomeration is a FAR more important issue than most people realize. Taking a strong stand on media ownership; becoming involved with orgs like FAIR, writing FCC chair Michael Powell, writing senators and congresspersons on that topic will potentially influence millions, and millions of votes not just in November but for years to come. Because so many people are lazy in getting their news the media ownership issue is the root of the tree. As independence and critical news sources disappear there is less and less hope for democracy. That's not pessimism--that's reality.

I'm not arguing against involvement, just that there are better ways to effect change than others.

[H2O Man]

230. First, I'm glad that you are volunteering!

Real glad. And I do mean that.

Gandhi used to say that what you think, you become. Thus, while I do agree with you that the state of the media is very bad indeed, we need to recognize that as separate -- though related -- to the otherpart of what you said ..... and that is that people are lazy in going after accurate news. And we have the ability to confront both of these problems.

Years ago, I used to do a fair amount of work during the summers on building houses. My talents, though perhaps few, were in building the basements. My father always told me that it was the hardest work, the dirtiest, too ....and that it was the least appreciated because you couldn't really see it as easily as you saw the rest of the house.But it's the most important part structually as far as constructing a strong building.

That's where we are today. None of us are going to be working on the top floors of this campaign. Our work is hard, it's dirty, and it doesn't get the appreciation it deserves. But it is the most important for building a strong campaign.

[wtmusic]

245. Good analogy

:thumbsup:

[KoKo]

173. But "Stranger" no one wanted to believe that Watergate was real, then or

that it was wrong...Had Repug friends who said..."what's the problem? so the Repugs broke into Dem Headquarters." It's just campaign "Dirty Tricks" and they ALL do it!"

You had to have a high sense of moral outrage to shout down your friends then...(always been a Dem in the Wilderness, but thanks to DU, I now have like-minded folks to hang with).

I think during that time the "people" were more open minded because the Boomers were a huge generation and just in their "Prime." Dan Rather was the only reporter (yes, he was a reporter then not an anchor, for DU newbies) was the ONLY Network person who really "got it" about what Nixon and the Repugs had done. The media except for "Woodstein" (Woodward/Bernstein) were still in denial.

So while PBS and the networks did have more "in-depth" news shows at that time...taking down a President over breaking into Democratic Campaign Headquarters was a bit of a "pooh-pooh."

We got more "international news" then and folks were much more questioning in the boomer generation, but our parents couldn't believe that Nixon was guilty of anything.

Just...adding what my experience was to yours Stranger. Maybe you hung with a more liberal crowd than I unfortunately was saddled with in those days....;-)'s

[Occulus]

229. I was discussing this and related topics

basically, a conversation form of the main points of this thread, tonight with a coworker. She's in her fifties, I think, and had quite the stories about what the media does and does not talk about.

People, this has been going on for half a century at least, and probably a LOT longer than that. Basically, I'm thinking it's been total and absolute complacency since the invention of television itself in the belief that what's being shown is true, but the denial of the idea that it (and thus, we) can easily be controlled as a populace by the people who put on the show.

I'm amazed at the width and breadth of this conversation, as well as this thread. I and others have called this the "DU master class," and I think that's very apt. When I left for work there were something like 150 posts; it's almost doubled in six hours. This could, perhaps, be the single most important thread I've ever seen since I've been here.

Keep up the good work, people, and keep fighting the good fight.

[NashVegas]

227. July 14? If So, Look for it to be Swiftly Overshadowed

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_05_09.php#002941

Just to pass on some added information, about which we'll be saying more. There is chatter in Pakistani intelligence circles that the US has let the Pakistanis know that the optimal time for bagging 'high value' al Qaida suspects in the untamed Afghan-Pakistani border lands is the last ten days of July, 2004.
-- Josh Marshall

[Occulus]

231. I've been telling people

to watch the news carefully about this very thing. If I'm right, and we're all doing our jobs, the word is, albeit slowly, being spread.

My advice is: outline the pertinent facts about the Plame scandal to and for yourself (nice ring to it, no?... "the plane scandal?" two people have asked, to which I replied, "no, PLAME... P-L-A-M-E"... sticks in their heads) and then memorize the thing if you haven't by then. Make sure you have all the facts right, and start spreading the word on this if you're not already.

The more people who know, the more will make noise. F-9/11 is proving the media doesn't and hasn't told us all the truth. Let's wake some people up to that, if nothing else.

[Stephanie]

34. thanks for the reply H2O Man

I guess your reference to Report from Iron Mountain raised questions for me because it's been misused in a variety of ways. As a fable, yes, I can see how it could have value. But some have taken it as fact:

The Inspiration:

The inspiration for this incredible piece of satire was a short New York Times item about how the stock market had tumbled because of what the headline called a "Peace Scare. " The hoaxers' target, according to Lewin, was "the military-supported think tanks whose pseudoscientific assertions were taken quite seriously by people in the defense department and military industries.... Another objective of the book was to serve as a warning that a transition from a war economy to a peace economy would not be easy, a point that appears all the more pertinent today."

The Reception:

The 1967 edition of Report From Iron Mountain was the most talked about book of the year. A number of people, including some prominent intellectuals, believed the Report was authentic. Many others, including most book reviewers, labeled it satire. John Kenneth Galbraith's review of the book written under the pseudonym "Herschel McLandress" appeared in the Washington Post and Chicago Tribune. The book was variously described by reviewers as "a harmless subterfuge," "a hair-raising analysis," "the sinister work of a sick mind," and "a serious fraud." As a work of social and political commentary, it has been compared to Swift's "A Modest Proposal" and "Dr. Strangelove."

In 1972 after the book had been translated into 15 languages, Lewin publicly admitted the hoax, and by 1980 the book was out of print, the controversy all but forgotten by the mainstream press and public. Until...

Today:

In what may be one of the most bizarre twists of political satire, Lewin discovered that bootleg editions of his book were being distributed to members of the ultraright-wing militia movement who claimed it was an authentic government document and, therefore, in public domain. The back cover copy of the bootleg edition maintains Lewin's claim of authorship "was just another move in a deception game played with exceptional cunning and skill." Lewin sued for copyright infringement and the bootleg copies were turned over to Lewin. However, as a May, 1995, front-page article in the Wall Street Journal stated, extreme-right fringe groups continue to quote Report From Iron Mountain as "proof of a secret government plot to suppress personal liberties and usher in a New World Order dominated by the U.N."

http://www.simonsays.com/titles/068482390X/history.html

[TWiley]

280. Not to stray too far from the topic,

but hasn't the "ruling elite" philosophy (Plato's Republic Style)become the most visible difference between the two parties today?

The modern republicans believe in a very small ruling class governing a huge peasant class through the legislation of so called "moral" values.

The modern democrats tend to be supporting the idea that morality (whenever possible) is the providence of the individual, and that the best way to govern is through a huge middle class.

Just as discrimination between the races / classes was important to sell Plato's Republic, it is also becoming more visible today. Peasant Greeks did not realize their poverty because they had "a leg up" on all the other cultures, and could enslave any of them. Right wing radicalism in the form of racist (KKK et al), neoconfederate, religious groups, and militia groups have grown rapidly over the past 4 years.

Another difference is that Modern Democrats still tend to believe capitalism does need legislative controls to protect the interests of the environment and general citizenry against the greed of individuals. Democrats tend to see a difference between what is good for society, and what is good for capitalism.

Republicans, on the other hand, want to remove all economic controls. They try to sell the idea that freedom = capitalism, the economy = the stock market, democracy = capitalism, liberty = capitalism etc.

I realize that this is a bit off center from the original post, but it might be a good time to define and highlight the differences between these two groups. Sorry for the rant.

[Pallas180]

287. TWILEY No rant. Excellent valuable assessment. Thanks. n/t

:kick:

[AlinPA]

18. This "case" is going nowhere. Its been covered over; media also

killed it.

[Disturbed]

19. Cynical

" A cynic is a former idealist who has discovered reality." Uh...something like that.

I still maintain that indictements will come down on two goons in the VP's office. The Pres. and VP won't be implicated directly but the stench will be there.

Maybe we put too much emphasis on the Mainstream Media. Meaning, if they don't report something that it isn't happening or "real". It's real obvious to me now that most of the Media has ben co-opted. Look who controls most of it.

Major Network Ownership Rundown:

CBS: Westinghouse Power
NBC: General Electric
FOX: Rupert "Satan" Murdoch
ABC: Walt Disney Corperation

[Stephanie]

37. Not at all

This case is in the hands of a serious career prosecutor out of Chicago via NYC - this case is not being pursued within the clubby Beltway backscratching system. Ashcroft lost control of it and now it will find it's own equilibrium. I have been staking my hopes on this case since August 2003, and I am still convinced that good will triumph. Hopefully next week.

This is DU's first big thread on the issue, AFAIK (thanks to DU poster partyline):

Guess what Joe Wilson told me today (the yellow cake guy)

[Pallas180]

48. Any lawyer out of Chicago is suspect. That is where most of

the lawyers, "young republicans" were spawned who worked on the
undermining of the Clinton administration, disinformation and dirty tricks, paid for by Scaiffe-Mellon among others.

There is and was a specific law firm in Chicago which was particularly instrumental whose name escapes me now, but I'll find it.

[Stephanie]

53. He's out of the Chicago DA's office, not a private firm,

by way of NY's DA's office (Morgenthau). I'm sure DU's attorney's and Chicagoans will give us their ratings shortly. So far I've heard only raves for the guy.

[never cry wolf]

55. Winston & Strawn perchance?

That is the firm of Jim Thompson, former repug gov and current 9/11 commission member.

By the way, Patrick Fitzgerald is NOT a Chicago Lawyer, nor, to the best of my knowledge has he been in private practice. He was an ass't. US Atty in NYC and worked mainly in terrorism (one of the lead prosecutors in the first WTC attack.)

He was recommended and approved for Chicago's US dist Atty head post just a couple of years ago. From all I have read about him, he is any perps worst nightmare, a bulldog who cares about the constitution and the truth and little else, no time for politics for this guy.

I hope my impression is correct.

On edit, here's his bio: http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/patrickjfizgerald.html

and some more info, private firm for 3 years in NYC after graduation:
http://fitzgerald.senate.gov/usattorney/patfitzgerald.htm

[Pallas180]

63. Steph & Steviet. thanks for the links and info. I hope your faith

in this person is deserved.

However I'm skeptical because of this:

"He was initially appointed on an interim basis by Attorney General John Ashcroft, succeeding former U.S. Attorney Scott R. Lassar. Subsequently, he was nominated by President George W. Bush. The United States Senate confirmed his nomination by unanimous consent on October 23, 2001, and President Bush signed his commission on October 29, 2001.

Prior to his appointment, Mr. Fitzgerald served as an Assistant U.S. Attorney in the United States Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York for 13 years"

1)Dimson and the "speaker in tongues" have packed and surround themselves with ultra right wing conservative lawyers who they later
attempt to pack onto the Federal and Appeals courts.This would lead me to think that Fitzgerald is one of the boyz, in addition to the fact

2) his service in the NY Southern District US Attorney's office was in the years under Rudolph Giuliani - no more has to be said there

3) the US Southern District prosecutors of the first WTC attack had in
their collected evidence files, all the information about further planned attacks and their method which they paid no attention to nor did they pass it on.

4) Since he was chief of the Chicago US Attorney's office exactly the same month as 9-11, why do we not know the names of the person's who speculated on the Chicago (options) stock market specifically on the price of United and American Airlines on 9-11 ????

On the other hand, it is said that a prosecutor can get a grand jury
to indict a ham sandwich, so I hope you're right - but if there are no indictments, I guess we'll know on which side this man's bread is buttered .

PS - Steviet, On Edit, no that is not the name of the law firm - but I'll try to find it and post.

[H2O Man]

69. A couple thoughts on Fitzgerald:

First, his experience under R Giuliani may be considered a plus. While I am not impressed with Rudolph Giuliani as a politician, he was a hard-nosed prosecutor in the NY Southern District Court. In fact, he may be the model of what we need.

Listen: he has the goods in this case. This isn't indicting a ham sandwich. It's indicting some swine who believe that they are above all laws. They acted with an arrogance that is a result of their believing they had all the power, and could control every situation. So they became out of control.

Fitzgerald has ONLY two choices: respect the law = indict & prosecute the crimes as a matter of principle; or disrespect the law by being one of the good old boys, and rising above his principles. The administration had hopes that he would take the second route. But thus far, he has gone strictly by the law.

Could it be that he is doing it as a "cover," so there can be no serious criticism after he lets the boys off the hook? While possible, no one familiar with this investigation feels that is happening. It appears that he has stood up to the pressures to rise above those principles.

It will be very hard for republicans to try to discredit Fitzgerald if he continues to approach this in a hard-nosed manner. It seems far more likely that they will try to sacrifice a few men -- even Libby and Eliot Abrams -- in order to stop further inquiry. But the information they have implicates Rove for AT VERY LEAST helping in the days after Novak's article was printed. Rove, my friends, is slightly less philosophical about spending time in jail than is Mike Tyson. Funny, because he fancies himself a real tough guy when it comes to destroying other peoples' lives. Rove is the small door that leads to the large office of vp cheney.

Bush has the option of pardoning his home boys. But he knows it will destroy any hope for re-election he has. A Solomonic choice for a fellow who is convinced the Great God Himself is wanting george w. to lead the world.

[calimary]

234. H2O Man, I think your analysis is spot-on, but I do have one question.

Regarding kkkarl rove - I've understood him to be bush's man, not cheney's. If rove is implicated (and I don't see how he couldn't be, considering his track record, this type of vendetta is right up his alley), wouldn't that be the small door that leads to the large office of dubya himself? Or as you put it in another post (which I LOVE) "the petroleum byproduct" presently residing in the Oval OFfice. Just CHOICE! But I don't understand why rove would lead to cheney and not georgie-poo.

I also remember reading something, fairly early-on in the bush-2 regime where young george said one of the things he wanted to do as president was to restore the power of the presidency. Nice for him, since he happens to have stolen that position.

I am not surprised by any of this. bush's track record is such that he's learned to assume that somebody's gonna come in and bail him out, or Jim Baker it for him, or pay off his debts, or otherwise clean up after him. He has spent a lifetime facing no consequences whatsoever for his actions, and many of them have been rawther crappy. He's always come out of whatever botch-job-du-jour it is - with some sort of golden parachute. But in the true spirit of the Peter Principle, he's risen not only WAY beyond his own capabilities, but also beyond the capabilities of his dad and others to fix what he's broken, since by now it's of such staggering magnitude. He has a history of throwing hissy fits when somebody criticizes him, and of vindictiveness (think frogs and firecrackers, his cruel mocking of the pleas of Karla Faye Tucker, his threatening Al Hunt as Hunt and his wife Judy Woodruff were at a restaurant with their little boy, for something Hunt had written about him that he didn't like. He's had enough people through his life who've apparently experienced his petulance the hard way that not many people dare cross him - and invite the kind of wrath and wrath-of-his-connections. Even his wife stopped offering critiques of his speeches, after he drove them straight into the garage wall in reaction to a negative comment from her. Up til now.

Also, I wouldn't put it past him to try to pardon anybody he felt like (still got that Messiah complex, don'tcha know). But I wonder if anyone will find it easy to stomach that Elliot Abrams will have been pardoned TWICE now for offenses strong enough to land his ass in prison.

A LOT to kick around, certainly. I am loving this thread, and your insights, H2O Man.

[H2O Man]

268. Yes, good point!

The rove-to-bush connection is greater than the rove-cheney connection. But remember: cheney is the "enforcer" who has taken the lead role in creating a "no leak" White House, and in taking a vindictive approach to anyone who he feels threatens their game.

Rove has a personality structure that ALWAYS and ONLY allows him to be the side-kick, the right-hand-man. And so he is not only bush's man Friday, he follows the guru of petty jealousy and mean spirited back-stabbing.

Recall that cheney has his own intel set-up, but he was also lobbying the CI headquarters frequently. He was aware of what was and what was not occuring in the CI/MI communities. He made a decision, and talked with rove, stressing the need to isolate the president from knowledge of it ..... for the "plausible deniability" that bush1 was infamous for.

Anyone who is "good" at crime knows you don't tell anyone. Do it alone, because everyone who you bring in multiplies your chances of getting caught. The fact that Novak said two White House officials told him about Plame indicates stupidity ..... and the fact that six or seven other reporters were approached with the story implies an over-confidence and arrogance ..... So, take rove's personality structure, requiring a "lead" criminal, someone experienced in these matters .... and that's Eliot Abrams. Fits the description of arrogant, over-confident, and stupid, doesn't he?

Bush knew without knowing. His reaction of "gosh, I don't think we'll ever find the leak" indicates that he really wasn't outraged, and that he wasn't that concerned about finding the snakes in the White House who exposed a CIA operative who was active in an operation to track the sale of WMD components.

[iconoclastic cat]

79. No, no---Fitzgerald's on the level. He's one of the old-style,

no-bull, always-gets-his-man (or woman) type of prosecutor. While most prosecutors here in Chicago are, as you say, a bit lackluster in the ethics department, Fitzgerald is not. I have watched him for years, and he has a particular zeal for attacking corrupt government/law enforcement types. (I could try to cite examples, but I suggest a Nexus search for those who are interested.)

Fitzgerald will not compromise his integrity. He won't be intimidated. And most of all, he has a personal bone to pick with Bush and Cheney: After 9/11, Fitzgerald was ready to bring charges against a man who he could prove was plotting something (a la the Texas case); Bush, Cheney, and Ashcroft screwed him royally, and allowed the bastard to be shipped back to Syria. (link: http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=7531&fcategory_desc=9/11%20and%20War%20on%20Terror)

Fitz was pissed. Royally. And he is presumably being helped by the intelligence community.

The question remains, however: Will he be stopped?

H2O Man, if I am off on any of this, let me know.

[H2O Man]

106. Regarding Fitzgerald:

This point is worth repeating -- the man is accepted by the republicans. If a federal attorney with democratic leanings had been appointed, the extreme right would be accussing him/her of "playing politics." The moderate-to-mid republicans would believe that, and hence everything that was connected to the case would be built (in their minds) on a foundation of "but he's playing politics!"

Now, we have someone they trust and admire. And he has the information needed to justify his kicking the fucking legs out from under the tables of the administration. Is there EXTREME PRESSURE being placed upon Fitzgerald to back off? Yes, there certainly is. But at this point in time, he's not backing off. And I do not believe he will.

Will this lead to a fight? Yes. The power elite is willing to sacrifice some of its own.... but only in an attempt to remain in power.

This might sound a bit off the topic .... but it is actually closely related ..... did anyone else notice that Fox ran a program about oil last night? Newt G had an hour-long show, "documenting" how the rest of the world, as they become part of the consumer society, will be using more of the oil supply. And how this threatens the American way of life .... and those silly democrats are more worried about the snail-darters in the Alaskan deserts, etc etc etc. The message was as clear as could be: moderate to mid-republicans, we have a growing crisis that requires you support the petroleum by-product now residing in the White House: his policies represent future freedom.

The opposition is deadly serious. They will raise the stakes ..... and remember that they are without conscience.... they do not care who gets hurt. We're coming to a show-down.

Good move by Kerry to announce his VP this week: the political/social landscape changes next week.

[coeur_de_lion]

113. thank you again H2O, for your insightful posts

I feel as if I've gotten quite an education in political science reading this thread. In some ways knowing more makes me even more frightened, but I also now have hope. Regardless, I am certainly more educated about the issues in the Plame case. I'll be glued to DU on 7/14 for sure!

You're a treasure!

So many knowledgeable people on DU! Who knew?

[lil-petunia]

114. One thing about fitz

he does not react well to outside pressure. If anything, his heels get dug in deeper.

He has been going after corrupt repubs and dems in Northern Illinois with a vengence. A breath of fresh air, actually. I just hope he stays on. too much more work for him to do.

NO WAY will he be swayed by the Bush cabal. We are lucky that he was in charge of this indie investigation.

[H2O Man]

118. It's refreshing to find

that there actually are many honorable people, including prosecutors who identify themselves with "republican" values. I've noted Vince Bugliosi several times. While I do not agree with all of his opinions, I trust that he is honest, has a strong sense of integrity, tries to be objective .... and he will go after anyone -- anyone -- who violates the law. (Though he's not a prosecutor any longer, he continues to address issues through his writings and when he appears on tv.) Fitzgerald may be a man we would find rather rigid and that we would prefer not to socialize with. Richard Clarke also fits that description. But they come through on important issues.

[never cry wolf]

121. One MORE thing about Fitz

Joe Wilson himself has said he was happy with the selection and confident in Fitz's impartiality and ethics, that's good enough for me.

[Pallas180]

147. If Joe Wilson said that, it's a pretty strong affirmation for Fitz

I hope he's right. The future of this country depends on it.

And that is a lot of pressure on one special prosecutor.

[never cry wolf]

150. I did a search for where I had heard it

It isn't exactly how I remembered it but Will Pitt spoke to him and posted here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=970970

[Pallas180]

163. Steviet, I think Will Pitt is terriffic but his assertion that Southern

District is apolitical is pretty silly. I know that office or did
when Giuliani was the US Attorney. Rudy started out as a real Elliott
Ness and was terrific, and then turned that office into a very political machine. He used it to prosecute high profile people, even
for shoplifting (Bess Myerson) to give himself a high profile name.

BZZZZ. no cigar. :)

Let's hope that Fitzgerald wants to make a big name for himself and
nail the biggest names!

[never cry wolf]

169. I'd like to point you to some articles

from the Chicago Tribune from when Fitz was first appointed here, but after a month you have to pay for archived articles. Shoot, I'd like to refresh my memory and be able to back this up as well. Durbin also lauded the choice when it was made.

But from what I read in the local papers when he was nominated is that this guy is all business. I am pretty sure I heard quotes from associates that said he is pretty much clueless on the outside world, such as popular teevee show trivia, who may hold a particular office or even some current events, just totally focused on his job.

A prosecuting machine, if you will...

Everything I've seen in his 3 years on the job here so far has reinforced this impression. He has gone through repug Gov. Ryan's former admin, chewed em up and spit em out. He has also spent a major chunk of his investigating and prosecuting terrorists and would have full weight of the fact the Valerie Plame is one of the good guys on OUR side.

[Pallas180]

174. Steviet, that's ok. Durbin is hot stuff. A firebrand. If he thinks

Fitz is okay, he must be.

I love watching Durbin on C Span.He's always got something to say and
boy does he say it.

I'd like to see him as a veep or leader in the houses.

[Occulus]

138. Do you predict

Something Far More Serious in store for us by November, Waterman?

Not that that's what I would want, of course, and I believe you already addressed this possibility as a Very Bad Result in thread one of this DU grad school class (well, that's what it amounts to), but... why am I getting the sinking feeling that we all may be collectively Cheneyd by the end of the summer?

[H2O Man]

146. We are in

the largest, most serious internal struggle since the Civil War. We are there now! And it obviously is a play being drawn out in the international theater. This is why I say things on these and other threads like "this struggle will require a level of maturity from this generation that we have not ever reached before."

The rules that once guided our nation are being tossed aside by an administration that is governing by way of the Wolfowitz memo I mention elsewhere in today's discussion. Although the plan was laughed at in 1992, we would do well to look closer at it: Wolfowitz speaks of preventing the potential emergence of any rival "superpower," including any confederation of regional powers. The plan included options for pre-emtive wars to "protect" our future interests in OTHER COUNTRIES' NATURAL RESOURCES .... in order to prevent the region where those resources are from consolidating their control, and becoming a global power.

Does this sound like an administration that will freely admit that another political party has won a popular election, and pack its bags? No, not at all. It's an administration that not only is vicious in attacking "foes" in other countries, look at what mood they are setting in this country?

[shraby]

152. There is one thing that escapes me...

in Wolfowitz's thinking,I understand the gutting of social programs which would free up more money for the military buildup. But by outsourcing our jobs, people will be forced to work for lower wages which in turn will make less money to pay income taxes on. This will deplete the money that he would need for a military buildup. Where is the logic in that?

[Pallas180]

167. Shraby- it means this country, its working people have been G-8'd

dimson has picked the treasury dry and returned the money to the large corporations and bankers,his other friends and family, while holding a whole bunch of it outside this country.

he has put this country in large debt to the WTO and G8.

it means you and everyone else in the country will work for lower wages and less or no benefits because the corporations have outsourced
the jobs to countries that pay lower wages, and there are not that many jobs available here, and thus since there are more people than jobs, the jobs available are paying lower wages.

Do they care that they won't get taxes because people dont have jobs?

NO.

because they already cleaned out the piggy bank - the US treasury, thus there is no money for social programs and if you haven't heard,
out of the 85 Billion, that's B Billion with a B, which was allotted to Iraq, only 3 or 400 million, that's million with an M has been spent.

So our money is hanging around. Just not in our treasury.He's got it at his beck and call ----somewhere- just not anywhere where it can be
spent on you, your children, your old parents, sick people, injured veterans,the homeless, hospitals, or medicines.

See?

[shraby]

170. I realize that, but if perpetual war

and confiscation of the oil of the world is what Wolfowitz and that cabal wants, they need a strong military. It takes tax dollars to support that military. With a robbed country like ours is right now, there will be virtually no tax dollars for them to use. Their logic escapes me.

[Pallas180]

175. Schraby. Privatization. 20,000 mercenaries already in Iraq as private army

When you have all the money being paid to Halliburton, Caci, other
private contractors, and they are charging Iraq and the other countries they plan to occupy (without choice of whether the country
wants their services) with private armies, they may not need the US
army. And if they do need the US army they do have the money they have taken from the treasury, don't you see?

There's 85 to 400 billion American dollars floating around somewhere. Just not in the US treasury where it could be used by
Congress to pay bills and social services for the American people.

[Tellurian]

266. It just occurred to me why they are amassing so many mercenaries there

20,000 is a very large number of rouge soldiers..

You all may not want to hear this...

but they are amassing them there to bring them here..

For when Bush declares Martial Law throughout the land!

This is Bush's private army. The one he asked for the moment he took office and was denied!

The Reich Stag Fire..

http://www.buzzflash.com/mailbag/04/01/mai04021.html

Related article on Grover Norquist:

Mr. Norquist goes on record to defend his statement that the estate tax in the U.S. was like Nazi policy under Hitler. In the next breath he goes on to say that Bush/Hitler comparisons (and GOP/Nazi comparisons) are deluded. To quote Mr. Norquist from the article:

" Do you want to talk about who's closer politically to national socialism, the Right or the Left?"

To answer his question - YES I DO.

And I would like to use this space to do it.

THE FIRST fact I point out is that G.W. Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush, was doing business with the Nazis from the 1920s to ~1950. He was a Nazi collaborator, a Nazi business partner, and a war profiteering opportunist. Prescott Bush had his assets frozen by Roosevelt in 1942 (Bush was in direct violation of "The Trading With The Enemies Act").

Bush's family also made money off of slave labor from Auschwitz. All this was recently reported by journalist John Buchanan. All of this can be corroborated by former federal prosecutor and former Holocaust Museum Officer, John Loftus. (Loftus has held the highest security clearances in the U.S. Government).

SECOND point - The Nazis used manipulation to create circumstance for political advantage. They started the Reich-stag fire and exploited it give Hitler total power. They staged a fake attack on a German radio station - dressing German soldiers up in Polish Army uniforms and then performing the attack. This was used as an excuse to attack Poland 'as a defense'.

...and they would repeat this event here with mercenaries dresssed as Islamists trying to overtake the US.. And what of our National Guardsman? Bush would use the attack of these mercenaries on American soil to launch a nuclear attack on the ME...There it is in a nutshell..Armageddon Redux. That is why, when Bush was asked: "how he will be remembered in history, he said;"I don't know we'll all be dead."

In the same context, Bush used the 911 attacks to justify his war on Iraq. He created phony threats which he referred to as "WMDs" to manipulate us into that war. He allowed Ken Lay of Enron to price gouge the state of California out of billions of dollars. Immediately after the rolling blackouts had begun, Vice President Cheney was on the air calling for an immediate increase in the number of coal and nuclear power plants. They also used the ensuing California budget crisis (that arose from the energy swindle) to capitalize on the political debacle for Davis, allowing them get a recall vote and put in Schwarzenegger.

THIRD point - Florida 2000 election - the fake riot outside the election commissioner's office was staged by Congressional Republican staffers. This was a felony that was never prosecuted.

FOURTH point - Katherine Harris and her voter purge of 90,000 eligible voters - most were African American and most were Democrats.

FIFTH point - Bush like Hitler, wears a military uniform in public while he is in office.

SIXTH point - Goebbels method of propaganda - tell the people that they are under attack - denounce the pacifists as anti patriotic - attack the intellectuals - and you can achieve whatever you want. This is exactly what is happening in the states today. War protesters are being monitored by the FBI. The right wing media denounces pacifists. And Rumsfeld called for the creation of a ministry of disinformation (right after 911). He even stated he would lie to us. (He back-peddled on that later).

SEVENTH point - people wonder why The Bush Administration blocked the formation of the 911 commission. People are also wondering why Bush is blocking an extension for the commission's report. People are wondering why Condoleeza Rice doesn't want to testify under oath. People are wondering how Bush saw the first plane hit the tower (he said this 3 different times). People want to know why Bush sat there in the classroom for more than 20 minutes, AFTER Andrew Card told him about the second plane. People want to know why Ari Fleischer lied in a news conference where he was quoted as saying "no warnings."

People want to know what you are hiding in the August 6,2001 CIA briefing. People want to know why Ashcroft stopped flying commercial airliners in late July. People want to know why several major international warnings regarding an imminent terrorist threat were ignored by the Bush administration. People want to know why the Taliban emmissary, sent here in July 2001, was rebuffed when he warned the state department about Al Qaida's plan:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0907-08.htm

It is too horrible to think that 911 was Bush's equivalent to the Reich-stag fire or to the phoney attack by Polish troops. But the opportunistic actions to exploit California's "energy crisis", the lies that led to the war with Iraq, and even the corruption of the 2000 election were beyond belief before George W. Bush.

So Mr. Norquist, I state that the GOP and the right wing have more in common with the Nazis -- both with regard to immediate instances and in overall methodology, than ANY OTHER POLITICAL PARTY ON THE GLOBE.

[Occulus]

156. In light of that,

I'll be rereading the PNAC doc "Rebuilding America's Defenses" again tonight, I think. You know, I mention page 51 of it to people, and they just dont get it. I feel like that juror on the "South Park" episode where the lawyer says "look at the monkey, here, look at the little monkey" during his closing and the juror's head then explodes.

FYI, I do, sadly, think a crisis is coming myself. What form it takes will determine our nation's course for years to come.

[Pallas180]

166. H20, I wrote this for another site, but this's the mood they're setting:

MY SUMMER VACATION AT G8

Last Saturday night, June 5, 2004 a friend and I arrived in Savannah on our way to Florida, unaware of the G8 conference taking place in the vicinity or that Sonny Perdue, the governor of Georgia had declared martial law for six counties including Savannah and Sea Island which is about 60 miles away and where dimson and the G8 are having their meeting. ( I don't think the rest of America knew that Georgia was under martial law either) .

Although the dignitaries are going to Sea Island, many of the bureaucrats accompanying the leaders were booked into hotels in the Historic Section on the river which is the charming area tourists visit. It's usually booked up every weekend and this weekend was no exception, but more about that later.

We went to the Bennigan restaurant next to the hotel for dinner and realized that many of the patrons were not the usual tourists. It wasn't difficult to pick out plain clothes cops, feds, and even a likely couple of "contractors" with Irish brogue sitting around the bar, mostly displaying sullen faces with blank eyed stares, which occasionally and sneakily fell on us. When we left the restaurant we noticed the hotel next to ours had police cars with names of at least six different municipalities, towns, and counties parked outside.

On Saturday morning we headed down to the historic area ourselves. On the way I saw the Georgia National Guard patrolling the streets. I saw humvees all over town. I saw small tanks. I saw jeeps. I saw young kids wearing their Georgia National Guard camouflage outfits and very nervous serious faces. And I thought of Kent State. I saw black metal cages the cops and the guard were putting together. Pens. Not wooden saw horses that say 'don't cross this line'but PENS to hold people in ! Uniforms and army and cops were all over with guns tied to their legs like gunfighters.

I saw a very small Coast Guard boat on the river, more like a rubber raft with two machine guns, one at either end of the boat, riding up the river, and harassing a tourist paddle boat. . And though I previously had thought people who talk about black helicopters should be wearing tin hats, sure enough, I saw two fly over our hotel. If tourists and residents weren't alarmed before, they had to be at these sights, as I was. A person quickly becomes imprinted with a siege mentality.

And what was all this for? The local paper had been publishing that there were going to be thousands of protesters and windows might be smashed and they could expect violence.

The organized protesters, mostly residents from the areas and some labor unions had obtained permits and printed their schedule of speakers and affirmed they meant this to be peaceful protest against violations of free speech and the G-8 actions.

The "townies" told me police had announced anyone carrying a sign will be arrested, no bail. That on Monday they will be stopping cars and searching them and can do so without any reason. Of course they can. But we will be leaving on Sunday before we can be subjected to this indignity.

There are 25,000 cops in the town of 20,000 residents.

There are 25,000 cops, sherriffs, troopers, correction officers on loan, FBI agents, and other federal govt. people driving white vans with U.S. govt. plates who have descended on this town. Savannah makes it's money through the historic old houses dating from the 1700's bringing tourism.

At first Savannah thought it would be wonderful to have the G 8 meeting nearby. But on this day certainly the townspeople were doing quite a lot of rethinking this idea. The town was almost empty of tourists except for some 50 or so brave or ignorant souls. Empty streets means you're not making lots of money and not feeling terribly cheerful about it. The townspeople of Savannah are feeling deceived and wondering why the media intimated there was going to be "terra" and why the military was putting on such a scary and heavy handed show. (a report was later published in the paper that Boston police had been invited,ominously, because the Feds intended to show them "how to handle protesters).

We walked around the old city and stopped to listen to an outdoor concert which was interrupted by a caravan of 10 or more police cars followed by a government van with sirens blaring , slowly circling the square, twice, where we and some thirty other tourists sat listening to the concert. The noise of the sirens ever growing closer and louder caused everyone to look and finally stand up to see what had happened. Nothing had happened. Two young guardsmen with walkie-talkies and batons marched around the square eyeing the tourists. This was a practice exercise in instilling fear. Nazi Germany replayed.

I now understand the expression "I'm freaked." Anger vies with revulsion within me at what this government is doing and what I am seeing. POLICE STATE. You can feel it. The cops are looking to make trouble....where there is none. And they will. They are too dense to understand that those young people who announced they will be protesting are protesting for them too.

I saw a group of young 20 to 30 year olds eating at an outdoor restaurant. The cops and guard cordoned off the street with police cars and humvees and stood around about 15 thick in a bunch in front of the diners, stood just staring at them. I don't know if these kids knew they were surrounded on the other sides also, but they sat there quietly eating at their outside tables. Nothing about them said they were protesters. They might have been or might not but they had the misfortune to look young in a town taken over by martial law. They must have been in fear. There was not a smile to be seen. But they didn't look up or acknowledge the show of force. What bravery and absolute guts.

We passed by a college dormitory which had been taken over by the Georgia guard as a place to sleep. Young men in uniform were guarding the sidewalk with their rifles. On our return trip we saw that they had spread razor barbed wire along the paths into the dormitories, which made me laugh. How were their fellow reservists going to get in tonite?

Meanwhile, this administration arranged that all 2400 reporters from all over the world would have to stay in Savannah while the meetings went on 60 miles away. The government people also reserved entire blocks of hotels in the downtown district - and then canceled the rooms at the beginning of the weekend without any remuneration to the hotels. Massive deception. It was decided if the government booked the hotels the protesters wouldn't be able to and would have no place to stay.

I would guess not many Savannahians are going to be voting for dimson after this.

The town was shocked at the military and government actions but the townspeople were being very quiet about it. You will notice that you read nothing of this in the major or minor papers. You'll also notice that you saw none of this on TV or cable.

This country has become a populace victimized; stripped of the civil liberties that our government espouses it is spreading around the world, a gulag, under an administration which acts as occupiers in its own country and under the guise of protecting the "homeland" is ready and able to commit violence against its own people.

This country is presently in the control of the military.

I never in my life thought I would see in America what I have seen happening in the town of Savannah. It made me angry at that Governor, and the police and plainclothes people. They are giving press releases that they are there to protect the people of that town, and have convinced some townies of that, while others have just left town or closed business for the week. It sure didn't look to me as if they were there to protect people. Quite the opposite. Their function appeared to be to instill fear and intimidate the populace. They succeeded.

We left on Sunday, and were followed by a Sheriff's white truck which pulled up close in back of us and followed us for a way. I could see the uniformed driver talking on his phone as he followed our car. I knew he was checking our plate with his HQ. We must have passed the test. He put the phone down and peeled off .

I've never seen my government act this way, not even immediately after 9/11 in New York City.

By Tuesday, the local paper reported there had been a couple of marches and a gathering at the designated site, lovely old Forsyth Park. 100 protestors showed up in total.

Reports of non happenings appeared in the local paper. 25 "activists" made an unscheduled march and were immediately surrounded by troops in riot gear,masks, batons, shields, pepper gas, who later said they were sure the 25 were going to make trouble.

http://www.savannahnow.com/stories/060804/2222812.shtml

"Free speech and the Right to Assemble" seem to have slipped through the cracks along with the Constitution of the United States.

The British end every speech with "God Save Our King/Queen"

I'm moved to end with "God Save Our Country From Those Who Are Sworn To Protect It Because They Are Destroying Everything This Country Is Supposed To Represent.

[loudsue]

193. Chilling report!!! Chilling! Good Gawd, Pallas, how frightening..

No, that kind of activity WILL NOT set well in Savannah, nor anywhere else in GA that would have to see that type of scene. Instead of making bush like he's making our country safe, to Southerners, it's going to make him look like

1) He's not telling people everything, which sows distrust, and
2) He's scared

It would also appear to Southerners that he thinks he's mighty important... where Southerners prefer someone who doesn't think they're "too important" to be one of them, someone who would shake their hands... not shut down their town like Nazi Germany, and scare the snot out of them.

Bush, I'm certain, lost a large majority of those votes.

By the way....your piece was really well-written: While reading it, I felt like I could smell the gun-powder!

:kick::kick:

[Occulus]

248. It makes one wonder if he cares about votes.

WHAT IF HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT VOTES AT ALL?

What if this represents the beginning of their 'checkmate?'

[faithnotgreed]

199. your post is a must read - esp those who feel they can "handle the truth"

thank you for sharing with us.

truly truly frightening.

i just wanted people who have anxiety or depression etc to be careful because all this deeply impacts the soul. and there are many across the country who are very frightened already which impacts health of course...


thank you again

[KoKo]

282. Thanks for posting this Pallas.... I read it on that "other site" and it's

such an excellent report of your experience. I'm familiar with Savannah as I have relatives there and spent many Summers as a child in the city. Reading your report was shocking. Savannah has not been a conservative area the way the rest of Georgia is. As a port city, like Charleston, SC the culture was exposed to many culteral influences and the populations were more tolerant of differences. Both Savannah and Charleston embraced Jewish merchants and have some of the oldest synagogs in America (Charleston claims to have the oldest) and both cities have been much more tolerant of diversity (except for the race issue, of course which has taken time). Savannah is known for the biggest St. Patrick's day Parade outside of New York City.

To think of Savannah's population being subjected to such a lock down was just unbelievable. That they could be cowered into silence shows that you can do this anywhere if you bring in enough troops and "black hawks."

Your report revealed more than we've heard anywhere, and I checked out the Savannah Newspaper online and didn't see any report as hard hitting and comprehensive as yours.

[Pallas180]

286. Thanks KoKo. If it sounds bad, it was worst than what I could

put in words. The show and threat of force was everywhere.
And what bothered me was that I thought if there ever was a rebellion
here I had thought since all the National Guard was in Iraq, there wouldn't be much to impede a rebellion.

Wrong.

What I have not mentioned anywhere is the night before we were in
lovely Charleston at a hotel on the ocean.

There were US destroyers or carriers out in the ocean and every 10 minutes US attack planes, F-15's (amazingly fast) and bombers(amazing looking with those big fat spread out bat wings) were coming from the ocean and flying over the hotel so low, (maybe 2000 to 5000 feet above the hotel)that I could see the missiles and bombs attached to the bottom of the bomber planes. This went on from 9 AM to about 6/7
PM for two days, every 10 minutes.

Were they going to the nearby airbase returning from Iraq? This was June 4 and 5 or were they there for the G-8 meeting to take place in
a couple of days. But hundreds of planes????

Cheezus, if residents of Iraq had seen those things coming at their direction and unloading those bombs and missiles......horrifying.

That was the pre-cursor to arriving in Savannah and seeing the armed troops occupying.

I was held back from going up to the soldiers and cops and giving them
a tongue lashing by people who were frightened to be noticed even though they themselves were officers of the court.

The entire experience was a twilight zone episode.. unbelievable to be
happening in this country.

[never cry wolf]

289. I wonder if it was all for security purposes

When Hitler had Albert Speer design the new Reichstag he was delighted that visiting foreign emissaries would have to walk up many sets of stairs and down long hallways filled with germanic art and paintings and busts of past leaders and generals before they got to his office for a meeting. He thought that they would be intimidated before they ever started talking.

Actually, the nazi rallies were designed to project power as well.

Ya think our own faux fighter pilot was trying to "impress" his visitors a bit maybe?

[Pallas180]

293. No Steviet. It was a dress rehearsal for martial law and meant

to practice intimidation of american citizens who might want to protest. The fact that they invited police forces from out of state
to monitor the procedings of how to handle "protesters" affirms that.

The dignitaries were 60 miles away, so they were not there to see the
police state tactics.

Don;t you think it's odd that the rest of the
country was not told by the media before or after that martial law was
in effect in Georgia??? that there were no pictures of it? That neither foreign nor national papers carried anything about the 25,000
military/police force in Savannah????

Is the media in cahoots? silly question. but this badly?

[Political_Junkie]

100. I have heard that Chicago courts

are the most corrupt in the country. Seems they were bought when Capone was in charge out there and have remained that way.

[H2O Man]

107. This is federal court

hence the geographic concerns are of far less significance than the individual attorney's belief system. For example, the 2000 Florida conflict: when it was in the state (Supreme) court, the geographic influence was involved. That court had a history of "liberal" rulings that consistently favored counting all votes possible, and respecting the intention of the voters. (Likewise, in the 1960s, 70s, and even 80s, the New Jersey Supreme Court was respected as being perhaps the single best court in the country.)

But when the 2000 election was "decided" by the US Supreme Court, it made no difference whatsoever WHERE the individual justices lived or learned their trade. Their belief systems decided the case.

When the White House has applied all of the pressures --national security, the good of the country, etc -- it is fair to say that Fitzgerald recognizes he has been selected to play an important role in our nation's history. He's a smart man: the idea of these snakes crying "national security" when they blew the cover of Plame's work must strike him as deeply offensive.

[Political_Junkie]

195. H2O Man, I understand

what you are saying about geographic concerns vs. the attorney's beliefs. I guess I was just worried that Chicago style justice would rub off on him.
Lil-petunia assures me that things in the Chicago couts have changed, and since she's in the area, I guess I'll have to take her word for it. :) I haven't been out that way for quite a few years.
I hope you are right about this man's character, and I hope he does realize the importance of his role in history.

[lil-petunia]

108. That was in the days of graylord

Today, the courts are honest, much more so than the political system. After all, graylord resulted in 23 convictions, a whole bunch of retirements, and a major overhaul in the judicial system. Clout still counts, but nothing like 25 yrs ago.

Our politics is a mess. Both repubs and dems are equal opportunity crooks here. It is a sad, depressing state of affairs here. Each day, there are new scandals breaking. The newsies can't even keep up with the numbers of indictments and the impact on current office holders.

did you know that for 25 years running, the feds have indicted a Chicago alderman a year?
Or that 7 of the top aides (present and former) have been named and accused of corruption and bribery?
or that our last governor is indicted on fraud and bribery, and that most of his aides are already in jail?

the list is seemingly endless.

[Political_Junkie]

194. Thanks for the insight, lil-petunia.

I'm glad to hear things are changing there, even if it's only in the courts. Let's hope that that's enough to make a real difference in the political arena as well.

[Occulus]

232. Two words:

PEOPLE'S RESURRECTION

[Political_Junkie]

23. Damn!

My mind is reeling! What a great thread! Thanks to all who have participated. The amazing thing here is that none of this information is new to me, but to see it all lined up like this, and to get everyone's opinions on what they think it all means is just
mind-boggling!
Michael Moore we got your next movie right here!

[burrowowl]

25. Kick

One of the best threads ever. Be sure to read the original cited by the Mod!

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[Roon]

29. This whole Plame mess becomes irrelevant...

after the next terrorist attack.

[H2O Man]

30. Or it may become more relevant.....

if there is a terrorist attack that could have been avoided had the White House not derailed Plame's investigation. Remember that the 7-5 Time article by Joe Klein (pg21) states that the "intense anger" in the intelligence community is because Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components." There is a growing awareness in the general public that the issues are far more complex than the administration has pretended .... the trust factor is no longer in this president's favor.

[coeur_de_lion]

38. 7/5 Times article link -- I don't think Plame will go away

even if we have another terrorist attack. If they are going to indict, it really can't go away. It can get buried by the news of a terrorist attack, but that won't last forever. Too many people are writing about this -- Time's got it -- it will stay on top. Especially if, as you say, the terrorist attack could have been prevented if Plame had been able to continue working undercover. A terrorist attack right now, with the atmosphere in this country, might just be more proof that the * administration is failing, and badly. If there is another terrorist attack it will just look as if * cannot protect this country, and that his invasion of Iraq took away from the country's ability to protect itself.

Here is the link for the 7/5 Joe Klein article:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1101040705-658343,00.html

My question is, will the indictments be enough? Will it bring down this administration? Will * be able to awshucks his way though it? Will it be as good as Watergate? Can we look forward to watching * resign on Natl. TV, just like Nixon?

I do remember when Watergate first came out (I was 12!) that as we followed the story in the news, it seemed like forever until it finally came to a head and brought down Pres. Nixon. It was agony.

[faithnotgreed]

40. heres to * not getting that 2nd term like nixon but heres to*

going down the same way!

[coeur_de_lion]

49. well now, there is another possibility

Even if * gets selected again, he may have to resign because of Plame.

Maybe there is hope. We gotta believe.

[faithnotgreed]

52. absolutely. one way or the other - i do believe it will happen

[iconoclastic cat]

85. Yeah, great--then we have to deal with Cheney or Hastert!

Both of whom are worse than Bush.

[coeur_de_lion]

110. If H2O man is right, Cheney is going down too

[H2O Man]

124. Way down below

I posted again about the "Man X" questions: Why? Who stands to gain?

When this group was in the conflict during the 2000 election, who did the serious work to bail them out? James Baker, right? Let's expand on that. Connect it.

"America's interest in the Persian Gulf is, as former Secretary of State James Baker put it in a word, oil."
- A Republic, Not an Empire, by Patrick Buchanan, 1999, pg 379

Baker is perhaps the best example of one of the true Power Elite; like Averell Harriman of the old days, Baker goes back & forth, between big business and supporting roles in political office. Both of these men have been selected because of their talents to take these duel roles, which are unusual for the true Power Elite.

Think back to an earlier time when republicans were in power, and the Pilsbury Dough Boy Rove screwed up ..... unlike the scene in the movie Braveheart, where the cruel king tosses his son's playmate out of the window after a serious political blunder, Rove was merely pushed aside. The important thing is that in all of these years, when people screw-up, Baker has been there, behind the scenes.

When cheney is forced to step down in the first week of September, the Power Elite ain't rolling the dice. They'll ask Averell Baker to step back in.

[coeur_de_lion]

133. interesting character, Baker -- thanks

Just read this old article about his role in the 2000 election and in lots of other * Sr. roles.

James Baker -- The Bush family janitor.
http://slate.msn.com/id/93754

And this one:
BAKER TAKES THE LOAF
President's Business Partner Slices Up Iraq
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=300&row=0

And found this site --
Connecting the Dots: James A. Baker
http://www.hereinreality.com/baker.html

I'll be doing lots of reading in the next week. This thread has been a true education for me. I have about a half-dozen directions to go in for more research and reading. I'm afraid until I read up a bit I don't actually have anything meaningful to contribute to the thread, but I sure do love learning from all the great posters here.

[Pallas180]

172. great links arbustochupa, thanks. n/t

.

[Pallas180]

249. Baker's resume'. This is too good not to read:

He says the government shouldn't overreact to corporate scandals. He watched the September 11 attacks at the Ritz-Carlton with the Bin Laden family. He's defending the Saudi's against a trillion-dollar lawsuit brought forth by the September 11 families. He led the campaigns of the last four Republican presidents. Now he's been chosen as Bush's personal envoy in charge of restructuring Iraq's $132 billion in debt. Some say he's the most powerful lawyer in the world. He may be one of the busiest.

Connecting the Dots:

He's the Senior Counsel for The Carlyle Group, a company that invests pension funds in defense and telecommunications companies around the world. The Carlyle Group is the nation's 10th largest defense contractor, with extensive ties to Enron, Global Crossing, Arthur Andersen, the Saudi Royal Family, and the Bin Ladens.

Through his law firm, Baker & Botts, he is also working to assist American oil companies in the Caspian Region. This work right now involves a pipeline to be built through Afghanistan, a pipeline that Texas oil companies were negotiating with the Taliban to build before 9-11.

Is this the same James A. Baker that works for the Department of Justice as the Counsel for Intelligence Policy? "The Office serves as adviser to the Attorney General and various client agencies, including the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the Defense and State Departments, concerning questions of law, regulation, and guidelines as well as the legality of domestic and overseas intelligence operations." www.usdoj.gov/oipr/


The judge who decided not to freeze the assests of Enron executives in January later recused herself from the case because she was a former employee of Baker & Botts, because of her ties to George Bush and the fact that she had been an Enron stockholder.

Baker & Botts was Enron's counsel when they merged with Enron Power and Pipeline in 1997.

Robert W. Jordan, another founding member, is now the Ambassador to Saudi Arabia.

Baker & Botts is currently defending the CEO of Rite-Aid, indicted for conspiracy and fraud.

[calimary]

241. I bet Baker is warming up in the bullpen even now.

They don't call him "The Fixer" for nothing.

I just wonder how long the lucky stream these guys have probably stolen, too, will hold out. NOTHING lasts forever. And I doubt these guys are big enough big shots that they can keep cheating fate like this.

[No Mandate Here.]

139. Great threads, and I think that Joe Klein

must be a DUer, as he writes, "Bob Woodward reported that Franks once called Under Secretary of Defense Douglas Feith, who was charged with postwar planning, "the "Cheney expletive" stupidest guy on the face of the earth," and some defense experts are wondering if Franks, who has a reputation for candor, will elaborate on that.

This word substitution was first seen on a post here! Hi, Joe! BTW, I hope that Franks does elaborate.

Edited for HTML parentheses.

[Zan_of_Texas]

149. Thanks!

Thanks for the Time link, Arbusto. I had already been looking for it, without success, and had resigned myself to a trip out to find it.

[faithnotgreed]

31. good point. that tragic possibility is one that needs to be addressed

they are corrupt and emboldened and worse no doubt...

[Occulus]

251. I would say, the opposite.

Remember, Plame's job was to search out clandestine production and sale of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons. If certain parties in this thread are correct, she was involved in an active sting operation at the time of her outing.

H2O Man had it right: think about he why at least as much as the what and how. If the timing is such that an investigation into an imminent sale of WMDs could have been the underlying reason for prompting her outing, rather than simple vindictiveness on the part of the administration, the question that immediately follows becomes one of motive.

While all that is speculation, it's still a legitimate question, and one with profound implications. The entire question of the Iraq war instantly becomes changed; the answer could be catastrophic to both our nation and the Bush* administration.

I'm starting to see a very frightening larger picture here, and I sincerely hope I'm wrong.... because if I'm right, this country could well descend into chaos.

I truly dislike the vision I just had of the results of that whole scenario.

[coeur_de_lion]

32. response to faithnotgreed post# 297 first thread

re: the NYC August protest -- I don't know about other states. Here in FL when we protest we get spit on, beaten up and locked in jail. This is standard procedure for Jeb Bush. I haven't heard of a peaceful protest in FL since * stole the election in 2000. So if I'm assuming that the same thing will happen in NYC perhaps I'm just projecting. Maybe it won't.

I think the outrage is controlled right now . . . just barely. If * "wins" again in Nov. I don't know what will happen here in FL. It will be bad. The rest of the country won't be much better. This, I think, is the reason we are all drawn to this thread. We want to have hope.

I confess I haven't read Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I checked him out on Amazon and he's got several books that look interesting to me . . .I was thinking of getting "Testament to Freedom" or "Life Together" -- but what would you recommend?

Mass was peaceful but I am not peaceful. There is a really beautiful Abbey close to my house -- I think I'll go there tomorrow and see if some of their peace will rub off on me.

O8)

[faithnotgreed]

39. both important points...

time will have to tell regarding protests but there are so many people saying that they didnt realize or were willing to wait etc when * was appointed originally but if that were to be even close to what happens this year then you and me and millions will absolutely not go quietly this time!

we shall see how the other protests/gatherings will go esp the one in nyc.... add them to the prayer list!

about bonhoeffer. of course it depends on what you are seeking but for the overall sense of who and why and when then certainly testament to freedom. the parallels of course are there which is why i wanted to look to him again as all of this develops in real time.

if you are seeking a more "local" or narrowed view of what he represents (in this case regarding christian community) then "life together" of course

i do think it a good idea about going to your local abbey. that does sound beautiful. the seeking is what strikes me. may you find whatever it is you need right now.

[coeur_de_lion]

46. seeking . . . I wasn't even thinking of it that way but you are right

of course. My local parrish church can be a little stifling, at least to me. When I feel that way I take a break and go to the Abbey instead for awhile. God's in the air there. Nice to have a choice.

If * manages to steal the election yet again things will be very bad as far as protests are concerned. I've never protested in my life but I darn sure will this time. I'll go to DC, NYC, wherever I have to. No ma'am, I'm not going quietly, ever again. Even if they do beat me up and lock me away.

I may check out "testament to freedom." I'll look further into it on Amazon and get it at my local book store.

[faithnotgreed]

51. i said it before and ill say it again - awesome.

i do think we will be emotionally celebrating a kerry victory come january but we do have to face the possibilities.

either way, i have thought that i will be so very proud to be here in dc come january 20th because i will be very vocal about whatever it is that will happen. and that is a crucial part of this democracy.

yes we will be vocal. we shall be tremendously vocal either way....

im glad to have spoken with you arbusto and i hope to see you around on this or other threads.

i do also hope that you will enjoy bonhoeffer. youll have to let me know what you find....

[coeur_de_lion]

112. DC is a beautiful city. I envy you being there so close to the action

If * steals the election again I'll be there. I have a sister in Springfield VA and I'll go and stay with her and go to the protests on inaugeration day. I hope it won't happen . . .

[faithnotgreed]

192. as i say - im proud to be here and if need be, we shall all descend

on this beautiful city.....

i think of how they have decimated the honor and integrity of keeping the peace along with civil liberties
so i think how our national guard and reservists etc have possibly seen some of the light of what is going on while they are there serving in iraq, and while they are here seeing and hearing at least a little bit even

its just a thought but perhaps feasible that while they would at one time be under the spell and direction of * and co, perhaps now if things were to get ugly (read post 166?), we could have many come over to the other side to help us in this fight or at least not fight us. that would be an awesome sight! and i think its possible were things to come to that point.

it doesnt sound like theres any question for you but i just wanted to say: hold on to your faith. i truly believe that it will all be ok no matter what develops

[coeur_de_lion]

196. keeping the faith

I'm tryin'.

Tough to do. A friend of mine who worked with me on the Clark campaign used to despair that he (Clark) would ever make it onto the democratic ticket, and I used to tell her to keep the faith. We worked so hard to get him nominated and it didn't happen. I still have hope for VP. Sorry if your VP pick was someone else! I'll vote for Kerry no matter what.

I feel like I'm getting an education in Political Science on DU, and I needed it sorely. But knowing everything there is to know will not stop * from getting re-selected. It will just keep me busy until the thing is decided. If he stays in the WH you'll be seeing me in DC on inauguration day. If we manage to unseat him I will be so happy there will be no living with me. I'll dance in the streets, at the office, in the shower, all over the place. For days.

This particular thread has us all enthralled because we want so much to believe that there will be something that will bring the SOB and his cohorts down.

Even if that doesn't happen, I know it is so important to keep the faith. It's either that or move to Canada, and it is way too COLD up there! All my spiritual training seems to have gone out the window when it comes to *. I can't pray for him, and I really hate him, which I've been taught is so wrong. And hating takes up so much energy that would be better spent elsewhere.

I'll pray for you if you pray for me! That a deal?

[Lone_Wolf]

117. Civil disorder

"time will have to tell regarding protests but there are so many people saying that they didnt realize or were willing to wait etc when * was appointed originally but if that were to be even close to what happens this year then you and me and millions will absolutely not go quietly this time!"

Slightly off topic and this is per speculation on my part...

If the election is again stolen, *'s administration and the Power Elite fears there will be mass protests that could very well unravel society which would threaten their power and way of life. One possible contingency plan in place is the use of martial law to put down the civil disorder or perhaps even a civil war. With the military stretched as thin as it is, perhaps this one reason why there is draft in the works.

[Pallas180]

168. Please see my post # 166 above about martial law and what

it looked like in Savannah this summer.

My best thought would be that more than one million people show, 2, 3,4, 5 million would be better - and just sit down in the streets all over Washington. The more millions the better.Get truckers with big rigs to block the highways, farmers with tractors, the unions to help with whatever big machinery they can.

No violence. They'll committ violence on american citizens. The more
millions that show clogging the streets so that no business, no movement can be accomplished, non violently, the better it will be.

This is how the Yugoslavians got rid of Milosevic. It's all that can
be done.

Don;'t go to work, don't buy gas, food,prepare beforehand, cripple the economy. AND sit down.

That's my best and only idea in the event they do it again.

And I do think they plan on stealing the election again and/or declaring martial law - no election.


I figure the internet cannot be turned off, but they can order the ISP's to shut down which would mean we couldn't get on with each other and let each other know what's going on or where to meet and so on.

Does anyone know how to get on the internet if ISP;'s such as microsoft, aol, compuserve , earthlink and so on are shut down????

[Occulus]

252. roaming wireless with random IP

is the only way I can think of that it would be safe in such a situation, and I don't know how to get either one.

DU tech gurus- got any ideas on the post I'm responding to? This is yet another important subject....

[faithnotgreed]

258. i dont know about what you propose but a few wks ago i posted here

that i wanted us to all get together here (i live in dc) and march or something because i also believe that something has to be done.

of course they havent actually stopped elections or stolen this one but its something we all know is quite possible because everyone here can agree: they will not go quietly

but when i posted that here (im new here and im sure that played a part) for us all to congregate and do something out of sheer necessity - i only got one response i think and that was from someone who felt that was going over what needed to be done.
to be fair i used the word "revolt" in my initial post and i clarified that choice of words in my response but it still is in that definition that something has to be done by the people.

i was not and am not talking violence - at all. but i think that f 9/11 has gotten some more eyes open to what we are not being told and like you, i just want to be prepared and do something constructive.

a large march of some sort on washington does get attention. i hope this idea will be taken seriously and explored and refined.
i dont have any answers really but i just know that something does need doing en masse. this is such an important forum

whatever that may be i will leave to those far more experienced and intelligent than i.... in other words, people here on du

[faithnotgreed]

260. i should add: people acting en masse could/should = voting !!

[Pallas180]

264. It's always good to have the outline of a plan for the eventuality.

Many marches have been organized on DU - but this is one that has
to wait.

You'd be surprised how quickly these things can be gotten together
through the internet.

The time is not yet.

If there is martial law - for no reason - that would be a time.

If the election is stolen again - that would be a time.

Showing up en masse by the millions and blocking every avenue and highway is one thing. but it has to be followed meaningfully.

MLK hit em in the pocketbook and it worked. Financial boycotts

You don;t buy things - not gas, not cars, not clothes, not their cheap
imports of anything,not airplane tickets,not milk.Not cable tv.

You don't go to work, but you really need most of the country not going.

With enough people doing this you close the country down. As they did
to Milosevic. Until dimson and his handlers get the point that the people of this country refuse to allow their theft of our country and
our constitution, and our freedoms and civil rights, and they get out.

[burrowowl]

41. You can't go wrong

with any of Bonhoeffer's books.

LONG LIVE LIBERATION THEOLOGY! AND THE MARYKNOLLERS KILLED DURING IRAN-CONTRA ILLEGAL DEALINGS IN CENTRAL AMERICA!

[coeur_de_lion]

47. thanks!

That makes 2 recomendations, I'll read him now for sure.

[kohodog]

104. NYC...Protesting the RNC

The anti war protests in NY were awsome. There were a few skirmishes with police. In Feb 2003 there were too many people for them to have much control. Basically the crowds took over third Avenue for about 20 or 30 blocks. Busses, taxis and patrol cars were stuck in a sea of people (and the protest was on 1st Ave!

But in subsecquent marches, with smaller crowds, the Police presence was a bit tighter.

If we get a million protesters for the RNC there is always the possibility it will get ugly, but with that many prople they wun't be able to stop us.

Look for heavy handed treatment of dissent in the smaller protests in the days leading up to the big one, which I think is 8/27. I think they will use force early and the press will exaggerate violence to scare people into not coming.

But they won't stop us!!!

(On edit) Forgot the terror scare. Just heard on CSPAN that they are worried about an attack during the RNC! So look for that to heat up to keep people off the streets.

[coeur_de_lion]

111. thanks for your description of the protests!

I hope you are right that the protests will be so big even NYC cops won't be able to stop them. I am sitting here picturing 3rd ave. packed to the gills with protesters. Love it. Makes me want to go there in August!

NYC more than any other place in the country ought to be protesting * and his evil cohorts. He could have prevented 9/11 and didn't. Then after they suffered the terrible events of 9/11 the smirking bastard politicized the whole thing and used it to scare people into submission.

You gotta love NY. There is no stopping New Yorkers.

[RFSea]

45. Posted at most Popular Blog

I post frequently at a most popular Blog.

I re-read this letter from H.A.W. from a little over a year ago

Important reading on the "eve"

First post here, says to bracket where greater than or less than usually tread... Okay... here goes...

Last paragraph is key, especially now that Tenet and Pavitt Resigned

Shorter: Have the deceivers left the building? (After CYA, of course...)

[Wind Dancer]

59. Welcome to DU, RFSea!

Excellent first post, another piece to add to our information data-base, so to speak. It's great to get input from so many dedicated DUer's wanting to find the truth in this nightmare we are living. Let's keep it going!

:yourock:

[burrowowl]

64. Waxman

is a treasure and his site has lots of good stuff!

and Welcome RFSea!

[KoKo]

77. Waxman has "grounds for Impeachment" documented. He's been at

it since the "selection." If you go to his Website, it's all there. The letters to this administration asking question after question and yet he seemed to get few replies. But, he's got it all there. If anyone ever asks he's got the "paper trail." He's got the "facts" trail.

Conyers also. Even though he comes off badly in F/9ll, he has also sent letter after letter to this "mis-Administration." He's got it, too.

Put Waxman and Conyers together and if we only had a Dem House and Senate these folks would be nailed.

Did Bush Lie about WMD to Lead Our Nation into War? The Correct ...
... Henry Waxman has been demanding answers regarding this failure, his letters regarding
the ... your congressional representatives to join Waxman in demanding ...
www.shockingelk.com/text/questions/ - 14k - Cached - Similar pages

Salon.com | Letters
Letters Readers respond to "'This Is Not America ... Important as removing George Bush
from the White House is, the interview with Henry Waxman also demonstrates ...
www.salon.com/opinion/letters/ 2003/12/18/miami_halliburton/ - 42k - Cached - Similar pages

WAXMAN with LINK TO WEBSITE:



Foreign Affairs - Iraq

Iraq Intelligence »

Iraq Contracting »

On October 10, 2002, Rep. Waxman voted for resolution H.J.Res. 114, authorizing the use of military force to ensure Iraq's disarmament of weapons of mass destruction. He did so with the expectation that a strong bipartisan stand in Congress would pressure the United Nations to carry out its responsibilities to enforce its own resolutions and because he believed it was necessary to send a tough message for Saddam Hussein to understand he would have to comply.

Strong congressional support for H.J.Res. 114 led to unanimous UN Security Council support for Resolution 1441, which called for Iraq's disarmament and full cooperation with UN weapons inspectors. Rep. Waxman grew concerned, however, about President Bush’s push for unilateral action without the support of the international community. On January 24, 2003, he joined more than 130 Members of Congress in a letter urging President Bush to work with the United Nations and our international partners.

On March 17, 2003, Rep. Waxman called for an investigation of the revelation that the President relied on false intelligence sources to present the case for war with Iraq to the American people and the United Nations. On June 26, 2003, he introduced H.R. 2625, which would establish an Independent Commission on Intelligence about Iraq - modeled after the September 11 Commission - to examine pre-war intelligence and the representations made by executive branch officials about Iraqi efforts to develop and deploy weapons of mass destruction.

In addition, Rep. Waxman has initiated an intensive investigation of the Bush Administration's process for awarding post-war contracts in Iraq to ensure fairness and accountability in U.S. funded projects for Iraq reconstruction. He remains deeply concerned about allegations that Halliburton, a company with close ties to Vice President Dick Cheney, has received special treatment from the Administration in the awarding of Defense Department contracts, including some related to Iraqi reconstruction.

On October 8, 2003, Rep. Waxman joined Rep. Carolyn Maloney to introduce H.R. 3275, the Clean Contracting in Iraq Act.

On October 17, 2003, Rep. Waxman voted against President Bush's $87 billion emergency supplemental appropriations request for Iraq. He remains committed to holding the Bush Administration accountable to the American people for its policy in Iraq and insisting on answers that the public has a right to know. His statement on the House floor, which outlines in detail his concerns about the Bush Administration's policy in Iraq, can be found below.

Statements / Legislation

Rep. Waxman's statement on H.Res. 627, condemning the abuse of detainees at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad

Rep. Waxman's statement on H.Res. 557, marking the anniversary of the war in Iraq

Rep. Waxman's Statement on H.J.Res. 114, to authorize the use of military force against Iraq

Rep. Waxman’s statement on H.R. 3289, the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations for Iraq and Afghanistan

H.R. 2625
Rep. Waxman's legislation to establish an independent commission to examine the intelligence about Iraq and the representations made by executive branch officials about this intelligence.
H.R. 3275
Rep Waxman joined Rep. Carolyn Maloney to introduce the Clean Contracting in Iraq Act.

http://www.henrywaxman.house.gov/issues/foreignaffairs/iraq.htm

[ClassWarrior]

82. Who says Conyers comes off badly in F911?

He speaks the truth. As he always does. I've been a fan of Rep. Conyers since the GOP's attempted bloodless coup of 1998.

[KoKo]

88. I wasn't dissing Conyers if you read my post. He could come off badly

in Moore's film for folks who don't know him, because when he says Congresspersons don't read the bills, it does come off to average person as kind of not taking the job seriously.

I have huge respect for Conyers, but his comment did lead one who isn't familiar to feel he was talking down to them with that comment. Even though it's true...they don't read the stuff. One would assume their staff (paid) should be reading the bills, though..

[Occulus]

254. ...and have sufficient comprehension to unstand the bills.

That's key. They can read them all they want, but if they can't understand what they read, they may as well not read them at all.

And then we wonder why Certain Parties would underfund public education.....

[calimary]

244. Henry Waxman is my congressman - I consider myself MOST fortunate.

He just ROCKS. He's been like a dog on a pants leg with cheney. His staff is wonderful and responsive, too. If we get the House back, there'll be no stopping him.

[nolabels]

70. And to that I submit my prediction that I put in a thread

This was intimidation for the spooks out in spook land. They pulled it off and who is stopping them now? They have not stopped playing hardball since they froze out McCain in the So.Carolina primary. Ya got to come with something BIGGER or harder to stop them, otherwise they just play it and chuckle at the end.

I am not buying it, the whole CIA \Plame\ Novak Thing is B.S.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=445076

[faithnotgreed]

54. great link. i am still wondering if he is or will be involved in

getting the sibel edmonds case out there... it needs political will and help
i cant imagine that he isnt somehow given that he is definitely taking on this administration in ways that others clearly are not.

[Mallove Fan 71]

56. I hope this thread never dies!

Now this is some serious discourse! I've been biding my time before registering on this board, but the quality and poigniency of the discussion here has moved me, shaken me, driven me to tears.

Thank you all for making me feel as though, by reading "THE THREAD", I have crossed over into some as yet undiscovered ultra-patriotic realm of the truly enlightened. I am humbled. I am at your service. I can find no higher calling than to be a part of this.

In my nightly browsings - studying everything available about cold fusion research and other new technologies being suppressed by Big Oil, the Corporate Media, and indoctrinated dogmatists within the science community - it certainly comes as no surprise to me to see * in the SRF's pocket, plotting out his war profiteering schemes with the power elite and soaking his assets in Iraqi oil. My only hope was to see BushCo's reign end with the rollout of some fantastic new electric generator in one of our neighbor democracies, since the "free market" in this country will NEVER allow one to see the light of day. That will be a sad day for many Americans because, as our oil-based infrastructure crumbles, someone else profits. We will become an also-ran overnight. We could have lead the way!!!

I now have hope that our own democratic processes are still sound enough to expose the festering sore and eject these fascist totalitarians from our sacred halls! We can then give our scientists the means to replace fossil fuels FOREVER! (Sorry about the swelling rhetoric. I'm new at this.)

I'll have my popcorn and extra voter registration forms at the ready on the 14th. Keep those fingers crossed!

[AVID]

60. welcome mallove fan

i too lurk mostly, but have been glued to this post - thx h20 and others

[dweller]

61. Welcome Mallove Fan 71

:hi:
quite the thread to come unto, isn't it?
be sure to read the link to thread #1 at the top of this thread if you haven't already.

now, what will it take to shake the shackles of big oil? What has your research revealed?

dp

[Mallove Fan 71]

73. The upcoming DOE review of cold fusion is pivotal

For starters, check out New Energy Times and get acquainted with the history of this important scientific discovery. The Cold Fusion Report is as much a harrowing tale of survival as it is a documentary about a new branch of nuclear science with the potential to change the world.

(snip)
Carl Sagan once said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Unfortunately, the early claims by Fleischmann and Pons were weak at best. Not only did the two University of Utah chemists fail to provide satisfactory evidence for their assertion of a nuclear reaction, but they could not reproduce the experiment on demand. Within half a year, the scientific community pronounced cold fusion a hoax and accused Fleischmann and Pons of practicing "pseudo-science." The two returned to relative obscurity, and their claim seemed to fade into history.
In truth, however, not only has experimentation into the viability of cold fusion persisted in the years since, but a worldwide scientific group now believes that cold fusion is real. Today, 15 years after the initial announcement of cold fusion, evidence for this new science is extraordinary. While theoretical understanding remains incomplete, scientists' capacity to replicate the experimental heat-generating effect has matured dramatically. Virtually all points of initial criticism have been answered.
(snip)


Also, you simply must read Dr. Mallove’s New Energy FAQs to get a comprehensive look at the major developments in energy sciences that you never hear about on the nightly news.

(snip)

… Despite the great accomplishments of modern official science, we have concluded that its organizations and journals are significantly mired in obsolete science and technology paradigms that are holding back progress; we hope that you will come to appreciate this. (If, in fact, that is not your opinion already!) The existence of New Energy R&D around the world and its under-reporting and mis-characterization by the "mainstream" scientific media is evidence of a profound paradigm paralysis.

(snip)


Our RW friends, in their furor to maintain the status quo, have opened the door for other nations to replace us as THE world superpower. Japan, Italy, France and China - just to name a few - have gotten the jump on us with a host of new technologies that are tapping into the far corners of our understanding of physics. They fully fund the research and grant the patents necessary to bring these technologies to market. The US suppresses the science, chokes out the innovators by denying research funds, and laughs them off the airwaves because our establishment scientists are either bought off or entrenched in their own paradigm. They don’t even look at the evidence anymore because they are so sure they’re right!!! (Does this remind you of anyone?!)

The DOE review came about because of the success of the Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion

(snip)

The initiative that helped launch the impending review was a letter to U.S. Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham from MIT Professor Peter Hagelstein, a cold fusion theorist since 1989. Prof. Hagelstein chaired ICCF10, the Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion, which was held in Cambridge, MA and in part at MIT, August 24-29, 2003. Solid demonstrations of excess power in electrolytic cells were exhibited on the MIT campus by two scientific groups. It was shortly after ICCF10 that Prof. Hagelstein wrote to Spencer Abraham.

(snip)

I don’t pretend to know how Hagelstein convinced Spencer Abraham to re-review Cold Fusion. I hope it was on the merits of the experiments themselves. Therefore, I hope it is given a fair review this time around. It could solve a whole host of problems “over there”.

[dweller]

58. keek..

:kick:

dp

[Crachet2004]

62. How was the attorney leading this grand jury appointed....

Or more precisely, how did we wind up with one, variously reputed to be 'honest' an "Elliot Ness with a Harvard Law degree"? And why the high-profile federal judge? How did all this come about? (Really, I'd like to know...just luck, or what?)

I mean, Bush/Cheney and their ilk make big money every day subverting investigations, using power and money to influence judges, etc... Why should this case be any different?

I hope there are indictments coming in the Plame case as much as anyone, and I can well believe CI and MI are furious at the Whitehouse for shifting blame to them, while the conflict between Rumsfeldt and the uniformed military has been going on from the getgo of this administration. I read the entire thread, and it has been enlightening, thanks to all!

But isn't it about as likely that the attorney which even people here at DU seem to approve of, the 'high-profile' Federal judge sitting in the case, and especially the seemingly exhaustive investigation-why, even Bush and Cheney were questioned! My, my! Really. Don't you think that maybe-just-maybe that is all window dressing, and we are being set up for a grand jury that returns no indictments? Isn't that exactly the kind of game these people ARE masters at?

I am just throwing this out there, because I hate letdowns. Ashcroft recused himself, and an assistant appointed this federal attorney? Is that it? And the assistant of Ashcroft is, what, unAshcroftlike himself?

Hey, I thought it odd when Ashcroft recused, but for us to get the judge and attorney we got, if it IS on the up and up, somebody had a figurative gun to Ashcroft's head. Had to. Wonder what it was?

By the way, I googled around some, and found that Patrick Fitzgerald was originally sponsored for his current position by GOP Senator Fitzgerald, of Illinois...and also attended Harvard with the Senator's wife-but said he did'nt know her...all of which seems odd to me.

[Edmond Dantes]

66. I share your concerns.

Neocons are masterful at manipulating the system when they need a whitewash, and they have ways of influencing judges.

I'd like to think this situation is different because the White House pissed off CI and MI. But this will be handled by DOJ -- not CI or MI. DOJ is tightly controlled by Federalist Society lawyers.

[Pallas180]

72. Who is the Federal Judge on this? And was the "special prosecutor"

or the Federal Judge appointed by a Judge named Silberman who was one of the powers behind the scenes who sicced Starr on Clinton and kept him there, ordering extension of powers and time to Starr.

Silberman as I recall was part of a tri-umvirate of people who had
the power to appoint the persons who would be special prosecutors or the judge, and as I recall Strom Thurmond often directed matters with his good friend Silberman.

Judge Silberman has a long history back to Iran Contra at a minimum of
partisanship to the ultra conservative right wing and cover-ups at the very least. His support for Poindexter, Oliver North, Abrams is the reason they are still walking free and back in government and with his role in the smearing of Clinton he outdid himself:

Salon put it beautifully:

"Whenever there's a vast right-wing conspiracy, Judge Laurence Silberman keeps turning up."

(and catch the picture - if he isn't the visual personification and stereotype of our view of exactly what he is and represents!


http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/02/10/silberman/index_np.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1144586,00.html

http://www.buzzflash.com/editorial/03/02/18.html

[Crachet2004]

105. Thanks for the links Pallas. I know I sound a little sceptical, if not...

cynical about this entire proceeding, but no wonder, if someone like Silberman is involved.

If he were senior Appealate Judge for DC when the Commission was set up, and he is senior republican on the commission, does that mean he picked Patrick Fitzgerald to lead the grand jury?

But at least if he is on the Commission, he can't reside over the case-right? But I'll bet he handpicked the judge who is, or will do so.

I sincerely hope H20 is right...we all do! And I believe there are many, many, many real patriots still at large in our intelligence services and government at large. But. For a whitewash to work optimally, potential adversaries (us) have to 'buy into' the proceedings. We have to be led to believe the proceedings are on the up and up...and it would seem, many here at DU have done so.

I just want to know WHY? To find out for sure if this thing is for real, we need to know who is behind it. Who appointed Patrick Fitzgerald and who has/will appoint the judge in the case? This will speak volumes...especially if it is Silberman.

Still, it is possible they may decide that someone may need to be thrown to the wolves-after all, an agent was outed, and people died...so the intelligence community will insist that heads must roll...and something big IS up, or Tenet and Plame's boss at CIA would have never quit as they did.

Given what Wilson said about Rove, we may get to see a perpwalk yet! I sure hope so.

[RainDog]

67. Another brick in the wall?

coming in to this discussion late. what a great one. thanks to you all.

I'd read the Sibel Edmonds interview earlier this week...EVERYONE should go back to the first part of this thread and read the ENTIRE interview if you haven't.

What I wonder is how Uncle Jonathan Bush's Riggs Bank plays into the entire weapons/intel scandal that Plame and Edmonds are part of...threads of the same cloth.

While the Bush junta wraps itself in the flag made of wool pulled over American eyes, their real goals can be stated pretty simply as 1. making a shitload of money off the blood of poor Americans, if need be, who fight their wars, and 2. controlling the resources of the entire world to make even more money, and 3. not giving a shit about those of us who make up the bulk of the population of America and the world because we are only pawns on the grand chessboard.

Don't have a link handy, but remember, Riggs Bank was recently slapped on the hand for laundering money for the Saudis.

Don't forget that BCCI was used as a conduit for Bush to sell nuclear components to Pakistan (and the Saudis knew this as well...as noted in "Outlaw Bank" by Beatty and...Time reporters.

Names change...international money laundering, arms buying, selling smuggling, drug profits remain the same goals.

[shraby]

75. Who is the federal judge in the

Plame investigation? Also does anyone have any new information about the Iran leak? Last I heard was some people in the white house were being polygraphed.

[Pallas180]

80. Maybe no Judge is assigned yet, but I did find Cheney and Dimson's

lawyers' names here: (yes, Cheney has also consulted a lawyer, which
suggests possibly dimson and darth vader being the vengeful p____s
they are may have cooked up this smear on Wilson and wife between themselves without any assistant's help. :)

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/006784.html

Yes, folks. These are the geniuses who took this country to war and are running this country... into the ground.

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/006784.html

[shraby]

83. I know one thing for sure,

after the election if Kerry wins, we should start pushing for a constitutional amendment that says sitting presidents cannot pardon people in their or previous administrations who have been found guilty of crime/crimes against the nation.
Nixon should never have been pardoned.
People in Reagan's administration should never have been pardoned.
People in this administration if found guilty of crimes should not be pardoned.

These crimes are all crimes against the nation. As citizens we should have some say in pardons and the only way we can do that is to have an amendment to the constitution.

[KoKo]

89. I would support that...Definitely. Can't think of any instances where it

would be a problem. If a President has been impeached he's done something to deserve it. Just remember that Clinton wasn't really impeached to the full extent where he had to leave office. So, he wouldn't have needed a pardon over Monica.

What Nixon did and Bush has done are crimes against our political system. But, I'm not a lawyer, and maybe one could point out where that isn't a good idea. I don't think if Nixon had been impeached fully it would have brought down or de-stabilized the government like many scholars of the time thought. I think it would have cleaned out a nest of vipers in his administration who lived to fight another day. Just my opinion, though.

[shraby]

90. I'm talking about not only the president,

but others in his administration. No pardons should be allowed. They should have to walk the walk. Guilty = jail time, not pardons.

Crimes committed by people in an administration should not be called "political crimes", they are crimes against the nation. When they have used their positions to commit political crimes they have misused our trust whether they are appointed or elected.

edited to add.

[KoKo]

92. Agree......Pardon's shouldn't be automatic to bail out cronies.

If there is a Presidential crime.

[burrowowl]

93. Good idea!

Crimes against the Nation should not be pardoned, especially war crimes.

[Pallas180]

153. Amendment to Constitution, No! We need to stop fooling around with that

document.

A law passed by Congress yes. (dreaming) saying that no convicted member of govt may ever serve in any government capacity, consultant
advisor, member of committee, etc etc again.

Of course, then MSNBC and Fox will just hire them for talk shows to spread their poison.

There should also be a return to the Fairness in Media laws too.

Then propaganda and half truths would stop being spread through the airwaves too.

[shraby]

155. But..when they are convicted,

then pardoned that means they have committed no crime. This puts them in a position to get back into government and continue with their agenda. A law passed by Congress can be changed, or overturned without a lot of trouble. A constitutional amendment cannot.

[Pallas180]

161. Shraby, a constitutional amendment can be changed. Did you hear

about the constitutional amendment that made consumpiton of alcohol
illegal - called prohibition?

It was repealed.

I think constitutional amendments are very serious and shouldn't be added onto . It's destroying the essence of the Constitution.

Let's see. dimson wants a constitutional amendment against gay marriage. The fundies want a constitutional amendment declaring
sperm a living person. How about a constitutional amendment that
all men of 18 years of age must be married before the age of 19?
And that all white women must give birth to 5 children before the
age of 25?

Where does it end?

[shraby]

165. I realize a constitutional amendment

can be changed. But to add one or to repeal one is magnitudes harder than passing a law..which is as it should be, so they don't get changed on a whim. It can be debated not only by congress, but by all the states. On this reasoning, I don't think it would hurt to float the notion.

[KoKo]

177. It will take longer than we have..to get it up and with Repug House/Senate

and then to get the states to ratify it? A huge job that takes years. Heck we can't even get the Electoral College changed because it would take a Constitutional Amendment and ratification of the States.

Founding fathers knew that this could be used by "Parties in Power" to manipulate the Constitution...so they made it very hard to do.

It's very important the Federal Judges we vote for, because "stacking the deck" begins locally and trying to work for a Constitutional Amendment takes so much time that the issue might be DOA when it finally gets to the States. Federal Courts need to deal..but if you stack it with Conservative Repugs you starve any dissention.

How many of us really check the records and rulings of our Judges when we vote in our States? We focus on the State and National Candidates but the Repugs are sneaking in the "wingers" by having them run not declaring party affiliation and folks go into the booth only caring about the Top of the Ticket and not what's going to really affect how we are governed. It's important to check out EVERY JUDGE running on the ballot in your county or city, because they will move up in the system to become the "Circuit Court," "District Court" and then a chance at the "Federal Courts" to the Supremes. Our BASIC laws in Repugs hands locally makes a huge difference in whether "people of color" or discriminated against or not...

JUDGES are as important as the candidates running for office on local and state level THEY INTERPRET THE LAW!

And...look at what Scalia and Thomas have done to us "interpreting the
law?" :shrug:

[shraby]

188. Seems as if after

Nixon pardons and the Reagan pardons, we should be looking at a "no more pardons for administration" amendment. Especially since many of the perps wriggle their way back into subsequent administrations.

[Political_Junkie]

203. Very good points, Koko

I agree that the constitutional amendment route is the wrong way to go with this issue. We do, however, need to push this idea. Too many scoundrels keep popping up in our government over and over again.

[Pallas180]

228. KOKO good thinking. Yes, isn't it funny that they don't put on ballot

what party the local judges belong to?

Although we don't elect Federal judges, they're appointed, you are
exacctly right. If we stopped them in the lower courts, in the towns and cities where we can vote for them, then they mostly wouldn't be
in a position to be appointed.

On the other hand, there are Federal Judges now who have made rather
large contributions to local politicians or presidential elections,say in the amount of $250,000 and bypass the local thing, and suddenly are nominated by a president.

But on the whole KOKO you are absolutely on the right path.

[KYDEM]

91. Kick

n/t

[seemslikeadream]

94. Riggs Bank and Equatorial Guinea - - Jonathan Bush

Riggs and Equatorial Guinea
British businessman accused of leading role in failed coup
Exclusive Investigation: Mercenaries held over Equatorial Guinea plot identify west London consultant as mastermind
By Paul Lashmar and Adrian Gatton
16 May 2004

A management consultant from west London has been accused of being one of the masterminds behind a plot to overthrow the government of the oil-rich African state of Equatorial Guinea.

The failed coup - strikingly reminiscent of Frederick Forsyth's mercenary tale The Dogs of War - came to light in March with the dramatic arrests of 67 soldiers of fortune at Harare airport in Zimbabwe. Now a witness statement seen by The Independent on Sunday names Greg Wales, 53, an accountant and management consultant, as a key organiser behind the plot.

He vehemently denies any involvement. But the government of Equatorial Guinea has confirmed to the IoS that it now wishes to interview Mr Wales, who has homes in Chiswick and Wiltshire and a history of business in Africa.

A statement on behalf of the state and President of Equatorial Guinea said yesterday: "The appropriate authorities are anxious to interview Mr Wales in view of his apparent involvement in the attempted coup d'état." British lawyers acting for the government have asked Scotland Yard's Anti-Terrorist Branch to investigate Mr Wales's role. "We believe attempting a coup against an elected government by the use of force is an act of international terrorism and should be investigated as such," one lawyer said

more
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/story.jsp?story=521746


Mr du Toit claims that Mr Wales arranged much of the finance for the coup.


Mr Wales denies involvement in the coup. While he says he knows most of the key figures said to be involved in the failed plot, he stressed: "I was not involved in a coup. I do not even believe that there was a coup plot. This is all a deal between Mugabe and Obiang. If the government of Equatorial Guinea is saying I was involved then it is a joke."

But Mr du Toit identifies Mr Wales as a key organiser, in a statement seen by the IoS. It was signed in the presence of a British lawyer working for the government. In the statement he says: "The first person who I spoke to about the coup was Greg. I had not met him before. I do not know how he got my telephone number but this was probably through Simon Mann. I do not know his family name."

The IoS has confirmed that Mr du Toit had Greg Wales's personal mobile number in his notebook. Mr Wales is an old Africa hand and has been involved with Mr Mann over many years; Mr du Toit claims that Mr Wales arranged much of the finance for the coup.

At the time, Mr du Toit was based in Equatorial Guinea starting up businesses, including a deep-sea fishing project and an airfreight operation in partnership with ministers. In his statement he says: "He called me and asked me to meet him on 4 January 2004 in Sandton, South Africa. He said he had a business proposition for me ... I decided to see what he proposed."

more
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/story.jsp?story=521746

The weapons supplied to Nick Du Toit's customers


The alleged mercenaries, arrested in March, are to be extradited to Equatorial Guinea to stand trial for plotting the overthrow of the government there. The Harare authorities announced the extradition last week, not long after receiving legal documents from lawyers representing the arrested men outlining their defence to various minor charges laid against them in Zimbabwe.

A court case would have revealed that the parastatal Zimbabwe Defence Industries (ZDI) has been working for the past few years with a number of white South Africans in joint ventures to ship arms around the continent.

'There was no way he would have got involved in a coup'
The South African arms brokers, operating with offshore companies, registered in places like the Bahamas, were able to guarantee delivery of weapons "within 24 hours of payment being received, to anywhere in Africa," according to a source in Pretoria.

Once payment had been received, an aircraft would be dispatched from South Africa to Harare. It would load the weapons from military facilities at Harare airport and would then fly on to its final African destination, said the source
The weapons supplied to Nick Du Toit's customers could have come from three sources: The Zimbabwe National Army armouries; from weaponry captured by Zimbabwean troops in their involvement in the DRC or could be have been bought new.

more
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=84&art_id=vn20040508105453653C ...

Equatorial Guinea also involved in the Riggs bank scandal


but laundering money for the government (Obiang) and likely paying out the bribes from the oil companies.

LA Times story (somewhere odd) has good details: http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=43&num=11319&printe ...

That's the Jonathan Bush linked company that there were other stories about today and recently--funneling money from Saudi's to the West Coast 9/11 terrorist cell.

I don't yet get if or how the coup money would be related. Greg Wales doesn't google very well, for one. But naturally we have a Bush linked company doing something hokey with oil rich EG, so there's got to be more to it. From some reading today, I think the International arm of Riggs is based in Miami--maybe throw in some Jeb, Cubans, drugs or other crazy Florida stuff that always makes up a nice BFEE crime conspiracy. I'm catching a strong wiff of BCCI.

Mugabe to barter mercenaries for fuel


Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe has struck a deal with Equatorial Guinea to extradite the 70 suspected mercenaries held in Harare to the oil-rich country in exchange for fuel worth US1.2-billion.

Official sources say Mugabe has agreed with Equatorial Guinea's President Teodora Obiang Nguema Mbasogo to hand over the mercenaries, accused of plotting a coup in the West African nation, on condition that he received a two-year supply of fuel.


The deal was first discussed at a meeting between Mugabe and Obiang in Pretoria on April 27.


Mugabe and Obiang were in South Africa to attend President Thabo Mbeki's inauguration.


"Initially, Mugabe did not want to send the suspects to Equatorial Guinea because he wanted to use them to gain cheap publicity and later to bargain for fuel," a source said. "Obiang had to send at least three teams to Zimbabwe to negotiate the extradition but Mugabe refused. It was only after Obiang accepted the fuel deal that he agreed."

more
http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/2004/05/16/news/africa/africa04.asp


Zim strikes detainees-for-fuel deal

author/source:Zimbabwe Independent
published:Fri 14-May-2004
posted on this site:Sat 15-May-2004


Deal entails US$50 million worth of fuel monthly for two years

Gift Phiri/Dumisani Muleya

In an unusual diplomatic arrangement, Zimbabwe has entered a US$1,2 billion deal to extradite the 70 suspected mercenaries currently held in Harare to Equatorial Guinea in exchange for fuel. Intelligence sources say President Robert Mugabe discussed the deal with his Equatorial Guinea counterpart, Teodora Obiang Nguema Mbasogo, at their initial meeting in Pretoria with South African president Thabo Mbeki on April 27. Mugabe and Obiang were in South Africa to attend Mbeki's inauguration. The three leaders are said to have met over the mercenaries' saga after Zimbabwe had earlier refused to send the suspects for trial in the oil-rich Equatorial Guinea. Sources said the meeting agreed in principle that Zimbabwe would extradite the suspected mercenaries on agreed terms and conditions. Mugabe and Obiang finalised the mercenaries-for-fuel arrangement at a meeting in Bulawayo the following day. The two leaders met at State House in the second city on April 28. After the meeting Obiang told journalists that they had been discussing the issue of the suspects' extradition. High-level sources said Mugabe agreed to extradite the suspected soldiers of fortune on condition Equatorial Guinea - the third largest oil producer after Nigeria and Angola in sub-Saharan Africa -would supply Zimbabwe with fuel.


more
http://www.zwnews.com/issuefull.cfm?ArticleID=9292



Business
Bank and African Oil State Ties Probed
By Ken Silverstein, LA Times 9/4/04
Apr 11, 2004, 07:50



A federal grand jury and a Senate subcommittee are investigating the relationship between a prominent Washington bank and a tiny, oil-rich West African state.

Investigators are scrutinizing hundreds of millions of dollars in accounts held at Riggs Bank by the government of Equatorial Guinea and its ruler, Brig. Gen. Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo. Sources familiar with the probes said investigators were trying to determine whether any deposits into Obiang's personal accounts were the fruits of corruption and whether funds from a state account were diverted to the president or his family members.

The Times first reported on Riggs' relationship with Equatorial Guinea last year, which prompted the bank to conduct an internal investigation. Riggs subsequently dismissed Simon Kareri, a senior executive overseeing the Equatorial Guinea accounts.

In February, Riggs ordered Equatorial Guinea's government to withdraw all of its assets from the bank. U.S. government and banking sources said Equatorial Guinea has had difficulty finding another U.S. bank to take its money, and most, if not all, of its deposits are still held at Riggs.

"Riggs' security procedures detected questionable activities on the part of Simon Kareri," said Mark Hendrix, a bank spokesman. "Riggs turned the matter over to U.S. criminal authorities. Riggs is cooperating with authorities and, in light of the investigations, views it as inappropriate to comment further on these matters."


Interesting but not surprising that whatever congressional inquiry is flying under the radar. The $25 million is nothing but a slap (Riggs has $6.4 billion in assets), as someone here pointed out. But the fact that Allbritton stepped down, and they are shutting down Miami and some of the other money laundering capabilities, suggests the shit has hit the fan.

Here's the guy who runs the London Riggs: Steve Pfeiffer (who googles better).

Bio: http://www.fulbright.com/site_map/FindAttorney/371.htm

I'd guess his operation would the point for paying out the British mercs. He's some sort of Africa specialist, former assistant to Sec of the Navy (and assistant CINC Europe and NATO muckty-muck) sometime around Regan. (Yale Law too).

Here's the Riggs 2002 annual report:
http://www.riggsbank.com/Discover_Riggs/annualreport2002.pdf

Lots of names worth checking out--I'm going to see what comes up with Juan Luis Toro, who ran the Miami international operation. I'll bet there's some connection to Haiti, Columbia/Venezuela and/or something more with 9/11.

Cool that we get a Walker involved and they have offices in the Watergate. "It's all the same fucking day, man" (--Janis J).




Saudi-ization of African oil


Same plan, different country. Take oil rich nation, find dictator who can be educated on siphoning off oil profits for his own personal wealth (to the further impoverishment of his people) and in exchange for preferential treatment of us companies.

Were they about to double-cross Obiang? His money was initially frozen in DC--it has now left. Was he just exiting to his Maryland mansion? Dunno, but this Riggs bank connection sure seems to be the follow-the-money thread to pull on Bushco for several different plots. Enough material here for a book.

For one, I'd like to ask someone who knows WTF, say an economist (can we get Krugman?), how an "Edge Act" bank functions, and what's up in Miami with international banking in general. How does that tie in with the export/import bank in DC and Riggs? The Edge Act is something about a bank that can only lend to foreign banks--that Jonathan Bush and Riggs in general could control such an entity while also engaging in other business like investments and domestic lending apparently violates the "Edge Act" (and a bunch of other regulations) and is partly why Riggs is dumping that portion of the business. I wonder whether there have been changes under Jeb that had led to Miami expanding the definitions of what's allowable into money laundering for oil and terror. The answer is: of course he did, just need to find that.

A complicated thread to pull--18 browser windows open so far! Like I found this great Newsweek Isikoff piece from April that I missed:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4661093


Among the payments that have drawn scrutiny, documents show, were $19,200 in checks between December 2000 and January 2003 from the Saudi Embassy to an Islamic cleric, Gulshair Muhammad al-Shukrijumah. The Florida-based imam has been on the FBI's radar screen for some time: he once testified on behalf of convicted terrorist Clement Hampton-El.

Hampton-El was convicted in trying to blow up the WTC the first time in '93. al-Shukrijumah is apparently still missing, also served as the blink sheik's interpreter and may have had a serious role in 9/11. So, it's not just the princess sending money to the West Coast cell.

(Another browser window has the odd factoid that the former head of Riggs international lending (Paul Cushman III) died with Ron Brown in '96. Wild. Kareri succeeded him.)

Plenty to run down here, although a tangent (or the opposite side of the coin) to the original news story in this post. Haven't come across anything that links Riggs to funding of the coup. Maybe it's more like switch dictators and get to keep the Riggs money.

Pinochet


Revealed: Pinochet drug smuggling link
Special report: Pinochet on trial

Hugh O'Shaughnessy
Sunday December 10, 2000
The Observer

The Chilean army and secret police have spent almost two decades secretly flooding Europe and the US with massive shipments of cocaine. The trafficking began during the 17-year dictatorship of General Augusto Pinochet and continues to this day, a year-long investigation for The Observer has established.

Twelve tons of the drug, with a street value of several billion pounds, left Chile in 1986 and 1987 alone. The drugs, destined for Europe, have often been flown to Spanish territory by aircraft carrying Chilean-made arms to Iraq and Iran. Distribution to Britain and other European countries has been controlled by secret police stationed in Chilean embassies in Stockholm and Madrid.

...

Pinochet, who is now fighting arrest on kidnapping and murder charges in Santiago, has not clarified how he and his wife, Lucia, bhad $1,169,308 (around £730,000) in their account in the Riggs Bank in Washington on 1 March 1997. As commander-in-chief of the Chilean army, his annual salary in March 1997 was $16,000 (£10,000).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Pinochet_on_trial/Story/0,2763,409367,00.htm ...

Pinochet's account was also mentioned in the recent WSJ article on Riggs.

Interesting that the possible new mercs, according to today's African newspaper story, are Chilean.


Bush, the Saudi billionaire and the Islamists: the story a British firm is


MUST SEE: stories on Riggs National Bank -- note links to 2 of 19 hijackers in San Diego through wire transfer from Saudi Arabia. Jonathon Bush, George W. Bush's uncle, is a top official within the bank and the Motley suit brought by the 9/11 families has issued a subpoena of the bank's records. -KFH


Articles / Current News about 9-11
Date: Apr 02, 2004 - 04:25 PM
Publication of book cancelled as libel laws blamed for stifling free speech
David Leigh -- Wednesday March 31, 2004 -- The Guardian

A book investigating links between rich Saudis and US politicians has been suppressed by the giant publishing firm Random House because, it says, of growing "libel tourism" by wealthy foreigners, and exorbitant legal "success fees".

Libel lawyers are stifling free speech, the deputy chairman of Random House, Simon Master, said yesterday.

The UK publication of House of Bush, House of Saud, by the American writer Craig Unger, has been cancelled because Secker and Warburg, a Random House subsidiary, says it can no longer afford such risks.

The book focuses in part on the activities of a Jeddah-based Saudi billionaire, Khalid bin Mahfouz, who has been engaged in a war of words in the US, where there have been public accusations by officials linking him and others to funding received by Osama bin Laden.

more
http://www.911citizenswatch.org/print.php?sid=176


Hijacked bank

Questions also remain regarding the web of money transfers from Princess Haifa, Prince Bandar and the daughter of late King Faisal, some of which reached Nawaf Alhazmi and fellow terrorist Khalid Almihdar.Princess Haifa's bank account--the source of the funds which ultimately supported the alleged hijackers--was with Riggs Bank where Jonathan J. Bush, the brother of former President George H. W. Bush and uncle of President George W. Bush, is CEO, President and Director of Riggs' investment management subsidiary.

snip

After Al Bayoumi fled the U.S. to England in July, 2001--two months before the attacks, Princess Haifa's Riggs Bank checks were then sent to Osama Basnan, who with his wife Majeda Dweikat, were both later to be found in the U.S. illegally as a result of poor or suspicious State Department visa supervision.

Former FBI linguist Sibel Edmonds said she found evidence of espionage in both the State Department and the FBI in pre-9/11 translations of intelligence intercepts--which also warned about planes used as weapons well before the attacks.A federal law enforcement source said Basnan was a known "al-Qaeda sympathizer" who "celebrated the heroes of September 11" at a party after the attacks and openly talked about "what a wonderful, glorious day it had been," according to Newsweek.

Al Bayoumi and Basnan both befriended Alhazmi and fellow Saudi hijacker Khalid Almihdar after they arrived in San Diego, according to the sources; and the Riggs checks from Prince Bandar's wife helped the terroists pay rent and living expences in the months just prior to the attacks, according to reports. Newsweek said Al Bayoumi helped them obtain social security cards and helped them arrange for flying lessons in Florida--indicating dramatic evidence of the state of congressional internal security oversight.

Basnan was convicted of visa fraud and deported to Saudi Arabia on November 17, 2002. His wife Majida Ibrahim--who had also laundered checks from Riggs Bank--was deported the same day to her native Jordan for visa violations. (Washington Post, 9-24, 2002) Reasons were not given why the White House allowed the high profile suspects to leave the country on charges much less important than being implicated as an accessory to mass murder.

more
http://www.tomflocco.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=53

Exclusive: New Questions About Saudi Money—and Bandar

Eric Draper / The White House


The White House is monitoring a joint FBI-Treasury Department probe into wire transfers overseas by Saudi ambassador Prince Bandar bin Sultan, pictured with the president in August 2002
By Michael Isikoff
Investigative Correspondent
NewsweekApril 12 issue - A federal investigation into the bank accounts of the Saudi Embassy in Washington has identified more than $27 million in "suspicious" transactions—including hundreds of thousands of dollars paid to Muslim charities, and to clerics and Saudi students who are being scrutinized for possible links to terrorist activity, according to government documents obtained by NEWSWEEK. The probe also has uncovered large wire transfers overseas by the Saudi ambassador to the United States, Prince Bandar bin Sultan. The transactions recently prompted the Saudi Embassy's longtime bank, the Riggs Bank of Washington, D.C., to drop the Saudis as a client after embassy officials were "unable to provide an explanation that was satisfying," says a source familiar with the discussions.



A Saudi spokesman strongly denied that any embassy funds were used to support terrorism and said Bandar chose to pull the embassy's accounts out of Riggs. The Saudis point out that an earlier FBI probe into embassy funds that were moved to alleged associates of the 9/11 hijackers has not led to any charges. The current probe, by the FBI and Treasury Department, is one of the most sensitive financial inquiries now being conducted by the government and is being closely monitored by the White House. The federal commission investigating 9/11 was also recently briefed on developments, sources say. U.S. officials stress that they have identified no evidence of any knowing Saudi aid to terrorist groups. But they express frustration at their inability to penetrate a number of large and seemingly irregular transactions. "There's a lot of money moving in a lot of directions—maybe not all that carefully," said one senior law-enforcement official. "Everyone wants to get to the bottom of it."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4661093 /


but only found this
Teodorin Nguema Obiang, son, wanted to live in a building where the arms superdealer Adnan Khashoggi once lived -

so far!

Western business has followed on the heels of the Texan oil men with gusto.
Only 15 years ago Malabo had just one hotel with no electricity, food or
running water. Two cars in the street was a traffic jam, and the phone
directory had just two pages, listing subscribers by their first name. The
airport terminal was a tin-roofed shack that received just one international
flight. Today, however, the French have built a mobile phone network, sports
utility vehicles whizz through the streets, and several international
carriers service the smart new airport terminal. Prostitutes clamour around
the gates of several new hotels. The US re-opened its embassy in October
last year, following an eight-year closure in protest at torture and other
human rights abuses. At around the same time the Dutch carrier KLM renamed
one of its planes after Mr Obiang, to mark the opening of the new airport
terminal. "It was like calling a plane Pol Pot," said one analyst. A
campaign against US involvement in Equatorial Guinea is building. The
influential US news programme 60 Minutes criticised the pact between Mr
Obiang and the oil companies last autumn. The latest State Department human
rights report, released last month, cataolgued an array of police torture,
arbitrary arrest and detention and the failure of the courts to administer
justice. In Washington, the FBI has started investigating a $700m bank
account at the Riggs Bank, of which Mr Obiang is apparently the main
signatory. One bank employee has already lost his job over the scandal.

But the greatest threat to Mr Obiang's dictatorial dominance comes from his
own family. The president has been sick, reportedly from prostate cancer,
and tensions have arisen among the ruling clan over his succession plans.
Some are worried over apparent plans to hand power to his son Teodorin - a
government minister, rap music entrepreneur and international playboy. The
30-something Teodorin parties in Rio de Janeiro, does business in Hollywood
and lives at five-star hotels in Paris, where he drives in Bentley and
Lamborghini cars. Some years ago he invested several hundred thousand
dollars to start his own rap label, TNO Entertainment, standing for Teodorin
Nguema Obiang. It apparently failed to release any records, but according to
Hollywood gossip he has had a relationship with the American rap star Eve.
Teodorin is also fond of female company from other countries - according to
one associate, he once turned up for a meeting in Paris accompanied by
several Russian women. He is a keen property investor, owning a $6m mansion
in Bel Air. But when he tried to buy a multi-million dollar apartment in New
York - in a building where the arms superdealer Adnan Khashoggi once lived -
the board of management rejected his application.

http://www.zimbabwesituation.com/mar18_2004.html



At Riggs, problems passed on with legacy
Joe L. Allbritton won control of Riggs Bank in 1981 and used it as a launching pad into Washington`s top business and political circles. He assiduously cultivated "The Riggs" cachet as the bank for foreign governments and diplomats and steadfastly refused to sell the institution even as most of his competitors sold out, The Washington Post reported. Riggs has cultivated the diplomatic community and one quarter of its $4 billion in deposits come from that source. "My pride in Riggs has been paramount in my activities," he said in an interview when he retired in February 2001. "And you know, if you have just enough money, you`ll do more for pride than you`ll do for money…. My object was to put Riggs in a position where it could be the survivor. It is that." But when he bequeathed Riggs to his son Robert after retiring, he also passed on Riggs`s long-simmering problems complying with banking secrecy laws. Most controversial has been the use of hundreds of millions of dollars in funds controlled by the Saudi embassy in Washington, as well as suspicious transactions involving officials of Equatorial Guinea.

http://www.diplomatictraffic.com/embassy_briefs.asp?ID=Americas


This has probably been posted before but lets read it again


The action followed the $25 million civil fine against the midsize Washington bank, which has a near-exclusive franchise on business with the capital’s diplomatic community. The fine, which had been expected, is the largest ever imposed on a financial institution for such violations, experts said.


The FBI and regulators have investigated, for possible connections to terrorism financing, large cash transactions in Riggs accounts controlled by Saudi diplomats.

The Senate Finance Committee chairman, Republican Charles Grassley of Iowa, recently asked the panel investigating the Sept. 11 attacks to examine Saudi transactions at Riggs and FleetBoston Financial Corp.

“Riggs Bank deserves every penny of this huge fine,” Grassley said Thursday. “Banks have a patriotic duty, not to mention legal requirement, to report suspicious activity. When banks look the other way, they put our national security at risk.”

Grassley said members of the bank’s board of directors should be held to account.

The Treasury regulators had earlier accused Riggs of failing to comply with a law requiring banks to notify the government of suspicious transactions. The bank also had been classified by the comptroller’s office as a “troubled institution” for not complying fully with a July 2003 consent order under which it agreed to strengthen its anti-money laundering controls.

more
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4973033 /

FleetBoston Financial?????



http://www.archives.gov/research_room/independent_counsel_records/wate ...

Foundation of the Friends of Equatorial Guinea and the United States

Kareri could not be reached for comment. His attorney, Jonathan Shapiro, did not return phone calls. Shapiro, a high-profile attorney based in Virginia, previously represented convicted sniper John Allen Muhammad.
Sources also confirmed that Riggs held accounts for Teodoro Biyogo Nsue, Equatorial Guinea's ambassador to the U.S. and Obiang's brother-in-law, and for Obiang's son, Teodorin Nguema Obiang.

The latter is a government minister but spends little time in the country. Housing and business records show that the son owns a $6-million home in Los Angeles as well as a music company in L.A. called TNO.

Armengol Ondo Nguema, Obiang's brother and the country's feared security chieftain, also held a personal account at Riggs. In correspondence obtained by The Times, Kareri referred to Nguema -- who is accused in U.S. State Department reports of employing torture -- as a "valued customer."
Kareri is close to Obiang and his family. Records show that he is also a board member of the U.S.-based Foundation of the Friends of Equatorial Guinea and the United States, whose aim is to promote stronger ties between the two countries. Other board members of the group include Equatorial Guinea's representative to the International Monetary Fund and the country's minister of justice.

Sources told The Times that Riggs' demand that Equatorial Guinea withdraw its funds reportedly occurred after a tense meeting in Washington among bank officials, Obiang, the FBI and several government representatives. An FBI official said the agency could not comment on an ongoing investigation.


http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=43&num=11319&printe ...


"warbusiness"

Child soldiers wait in Bule for orders to move. When this photo was taken, they were the only defense forces in a 25-mile radius. Two days later they too pulled out, and Bule was attacked.


http://www.zwnews.com/warbusiness.doc

one tiny snip:

In April 2001, an MPRI representative met with the Pentagon’s regional director for Central Africa to discuss the company’s hopes of winning the contract to train Equatorial Guinea’s forces. “They may need our help or moral support,” Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski wrote in a memo on the meeting, obtained by ICIJ under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. She quoted the MPRI representative as saying that Equatorial Guinea was “the Kuwait of the Gulf of Guinea” and, in a briefing paper three months later, advanced that characterization to “a possible ‘Kuwait of Africa’ with huge oil reserves” that was “US-friendly for both investment and security reasons.” Kwiatkowski also noted in her April memo that the highest-ranking U.S. official to meet with Obiang when he visited Washington early in 2001 was an assistant secretary of agriculture – that after French President Jacques Chirac had spared time to meet with him.

Despite concerns about Equatorial Guinea’s human rights record, Obiang’s currency rose dramatically after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. When he visited the United States as it marked the first anniversary of the attacks, Obiang was among 10 African leaders to meet with President George Bush for talks on the prospect of war with Iraq and peace and development on the African continent.


ended up here because of this:

If you've been reading the news the last few days you may have noticed this odd and somewhat mysterious story of a US-registered cargo plane loaded with 64 "mercernaries" and various military equipment which was impounded

Sunday night at Harare International Airport in Zimbabwe "after its owners had made a false declaration of its cargo and crew."

When asked about it on Monday, State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said "We have no indication this aircraft is connected to the U.S. government."

That seemed like a rather less than unequivocal response. And behind the scenes US government officials said they didn't believe the US government had any connection with this operation. But they wanted to make sure before saying anything definitive.

Now, if you look at the press accounts, what's caught people's attention is the US registry of the plane. Specifically, it's registered to a company called Dodson Aviation, which is based in Kansas.

Now, Dodson says they sold the plane to a "reputable" firm in South Africa about a week ago. "I think they were going to use it for charter flights," company director Robert Dodson told the Associated Press.

Now here's a little more detail.

Dodson Aviation of Kansas has a South African subsidiary, Dodson International Parts SA Ltd (According to their website, "Dodson International Parts SA (Pty) Ltd is the African division of United States based companies Dodson International Parts Inc. and Dodson Aviation. The company was established in 1998 and is based at Wonderboom Airport, Pretoria.") And it was from this subsidiary's hangar at an airport just north of Pretoria that the aforementioned mercenaries boarded the plane.

Now, here's where this gets a little murky.

I wanted to find out more about Dodson International Parts SA Ltd. What I found something out about was a company that sounded very similar: a South African company called Dodson Aviation Maintenance and Spare Parts.

They're also in the airplane business.

Not exactly the same name. But remember, the South African company is the subsidiary of two American companies, Dodson Aviation and Dodson International. If these aren't the same company, or closely related companies, I'd figure they often get confused for one another.

In any case, here's what I found about Dodson Aviation Maintenance and Spare Parts.

They come up in the December 2000 Report of the Panel of Experts to the United Nations on Sierra Leone, in the section of the report dealing with the arms trade.

Here's the section that caught my eye (italics added) ...

187. Fred Rindel a retired officer of the South African Defence Force and former Defence Attaché to the United States, has played a key role in the training of a Liberian anti-terrorist unit, consisting of Liberian soldiers and groups of foreigners, including citizens of Sierra Leone, Burkina Faso, Niger and The Gambia.
188. The panel interviewed Mr Rindel extensively. Rindel was contracted as a security consultant by President Charles Taylor in September 1998, and training started in November 1998. The contract included consultancy services and strategic advice to convert Charles Taylor's former rebel militia into a professional unit. The Anti-Terrorist Unit is used in Liberia to protect government buildings, the Executive Mansion and the international airport, and to provide VIP Security and the protection of foreign embassies. The numbers trained were approximately 1200. Because of negative media attention, Rindel cancelled his contract in Liberia in August 2000.

189. In 1998, ECOMOG identified a plane, registration number N71RD, owned by a South African company, Dodson Aviation Maintenance and Spare Parts, as having carried weapons to Robertsfield in September of that year. The plane is a Gulfstream 14-seater business jet that cannot be used for arms transport, but there are other relevant connections. Fred Rindel was the owner of Dodson. The company was closed on 31 December 1998, but during the period under investigation, the plane was leased to, and operated by, Greater Holdings (Liberia) Ltd., a company with gold and diamond concessions in Liberia. The plane was used for the transport of the Greater Holdings' staff to and from Liberia.



Mr. Rindel's name came up earlier in 2000 in testimony at the UN Security Council by then-UN Ambassador Richard C. Holbrooke in a discussion of Sierra Leone (italics added) ...

In regard to arms trafficking to Sierra Leone, Mr. Chairman, we remain concerned and I would like to add a few more items to the record. The principal Africa countries involved in arms trafficking to the RUF - though they deny it - include Burkina Faso, Liberia and Libya.
In 1999, planes landed in Ouagadougou, allegedly coming from the Ukraine, with several tons of small arms and ammunition. This incident, which the Ukrainians say has stopped, is one that we believe should be brought to the attention of your committee.

In regard to trafficking, arms brokers have played a vital role in keeping the RUF supplied with weapons and other military materiel. A well-known arms and diamond dealer in Sierra Leone, Zief Morganstein, in July 1999 arranged for a Continental Aviation-based charter out of Dakar to fly a shipment of small arms from Bulgaria to Sierra Leone. Last year the RUF received 68 tons of weapons from Bulgaria, which Morganstein may have helped arrange. There have been other connections between former government officials from South Africa during its Apartheid regime who now operate as private individuals, including Fred Rindel, the South African Defense Attache in Washington, who now works as a security consultant in Liberia and trains Liberian troops and RUF insurgents. There are other charges about other businessmen who are reportedly helping the Sierra Leone government coming from various countries around the world.



Now, I've scanned the news coverage of this and I haven't seen any mention of this seeming connection. So perhaps these are two utterly unrelated companies?

As of Tuesday the situation in Zimbabwe seems to be calming down, though now there are apparently fears in Equatorial Guinea that these mercenaries were somehow intended to assist a coup in that country. (No, I can't keep up either.) "Some 15 mercenaries have been arrested here," the country's Information Minister Agustin Nse Nfumu told Reuters. "It was connected with that plane in Zimbabwe. They were the advance party of that group."

Equatorial Guinea is next door to Gabon. And Joe Wilson used to be the US Ambassador there back in the day. So maybe he can make some sense of this. I can't. But I'd be very interested to talk to the investigators who put together that UN report and see if there's any connection between Dodson International Parts SA Ltd and Dodson Aviation Maintenance and Spare Parts.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com /

I just can not forget that Poppy's gold mining buddies Barrick



War is Golden for the Bush Administration
And the commodities connection? President Pretzel's relentless hissy-fit for war on Iraq has of course goosed the price of gold enormously--and that's set Bush Family coffers a-clinking. How so? In the waning days of his failed presidency, Bush I invoked an obscure 1872 statute to give a Canadian firm, Barrick Corporation, the right to mine $10 billion in gold from U.S. public lands. (U.S. taxpayers got a whopping $10,000 fee in return.) Bush then joined Barrick as a highly-paid "international consultant," brokering deals with various dictators of his close acquaintance. Barrick reciprocated with big bucks for Junior's presidential run. And in another quid for the old pro quo, last year Junior dutifully approved Barrick's controversial acquisition of a major rival. (Barrick is also one of the biggest polluters in America, by the way.)

http://www.counterpunch.org/floyd02152003.html

The money behind Barrick is from Saudi arms dealer and Bush family friend Adnan Khashoggi, who was identified as conduit in the Iran-Contra conspiracy. In 1986 he was arrested and charged with fraud but failed to be convicted. In one of his last acts as president Bush pardoned Khashoggi's alleged co-conspirators, who were key members of Bush's own cabinet. As a result, no case could be made against Khashoggi – or against Bush himself.

http://www.penfield-gill.com/presentations/bush_the_elder.htm

Where was flight N4610 heading?

March 10 2004 at 08:11AM



They were 64 "heavily built men", mostly white. No, they were all black. No, only 40 of them were black.

The plane left South Africa illegally from Wonderboom airport, strayed into Zimbabwe airspace and was ordered down. No, the plane left the country legally, having filed a flight plan to Harare and then on to Burundi. No, the plane was headed for the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC).

The men on board were suspected of being mercenaries hired to overthrow Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe. No, they were on their way to overthrow the government of Equatorial Guinea. No, they were going to the eastern DRC to carry out security duties.

These are just some of the stories surrounding the flight of N4610, a Boeing 727-100 cargo plane that has been impounded in Harare.

And 64 - though some reports say there are 67 - of those who were aboard, whether they were white, black or a mixture, and whether they were mercenaries or honest men, are in Harare cells facing intense interrogation.

On Tuesday, a company named in connection with the flight disputed all the speculation, saying the "mercenaries" were in fact security people "going to eastern DRC".

They were stopping in Zimbabwe to pick up mining equipment, "Zimbabwe being a vastly cheaper place for such".

Charles Burrow, a senior executive of Logo Logistics which had chartered the Boeing 727 freighter, said via telephone from London that most of the people on board were South African and had military experience, but were on contract to four mining companies in the DRC. He declined to name the companies.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=84&art_id=vn20040310081125342C ...

Plane Did Stop At Grantley Adams - Thursday 11, March-2004

A UNITED STATES registered plane at the centre of controversy after being detained on Monday with 64 suspected mercenaries aboard by the Zimbabwean government did stop at Grantley Adams International Airport last Saturday morning.
Informed sources told the DAILY NATION yesterday that the aircraft, a Boeing 727 (100 series), with registration number N4610, landed in Barbados shortly after midnight for refuelling before leaving around 6:30 a.m.

Sources also indicated that the aircraft, which Zimbabwean officials alleged also carried military equipment, had arrived from the Hope Air Force Base in North Carolina, United States, before its stop-over in Barbados.

Further reports stated that the plane, originally a commercial PanAm Airways aircraft up until a week ago, was being operated by the American Air Force, but international Press reports stated it had been sold to a South African company.

http://www.nationnews.com/StoryView.cfm?Record=48033&Section=Local&Cur ..


Corporate Mercenaries - Executive Outcomes Leads to Bush


Executive Outcomes is the most infamous mercenary company in operation today. Unlike traditional mercenary companies, it operates as the heavy partner in a web of related companies. Sandline international is such a sister company: 170 elite South African dogs of war were hired to crush the Bougainville freedom Fighters for $22m. Just another job for the likes of Sandline international? Paul Vernon investigates...

Set up in 1993 by Tony Buckingham and Simon Mannl <1>, Executive outcomes (EO) has worked in Asia, Africa and South America. Most of it's personnel are hired from South Africa.

Buckingham is the chief executive of Heritage Oil and Gas, which is now registered in the (tax-free) Bahamas. When EO was hired by the Sierra Leone government to crush people's revolt, Heritage received much of the payment in the form of mining rights. Sir David Steel MP happens to be a director of Heritage as well as a close friend of Buckingham. Recently Sierra Leone was thrown back into chaos with another military coup.

Eeben Barlow, the present CEO of Executive Outcomes, is a veteran of the Civil Co-operation Bureau, which allegedly assassinated antiapartheid activists. Barlow is the frontman for the group he told Newsweek (2) in February: "I'm a professional soldier. It's not about politics. I have a job to do. I do it." EO is thought to have a annual turnover of more that £20 million.

The South African government, with help from officials from the United Nations, has begun to draft proposals of legislation aimed to counter what officials called "the increasing frequency with which our soldiers-of-fortune are operating overseas".(7)

http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/magazine/issue4/cw4f8.html

Executive Outcomes ties lead to London and Bush
Executive Intelligence Review January 31, 1997, pp. 42-43
by Roger Moore and Linda de Hoyos

Exposes appearing on both sides of the Atlantic on the mercenary group Executive Outcomes, threaten to blow the lid off the British intelligence nexus already identified as responsible for the February 1986 murder of Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme, and for the current cataclysmic destabilization of Africa on behalf of circles associated with the Queen of England's Privy Council and Sir George Bush.
The exposes appeared in the French daily {Le Figaro} on Jan. 16, the {London Observer} on Jan. 17, and the February issue of the American magazine {Harper's.}
Executive Outcomes is the mercenary arm of a vast
network of British-South African corporations dealing in gold, diamonds, and oil, primarily, but not exclusively, in Africa, that come under the umbrella of Strategic Resources Corporation, headquartered in Pretoria, South Africa. Described universally as an ``advance guard of a corporate network that includes mining, oil, and construction companies,'' Executive Outcomes is active in 13 African countries, including Uganda. For its services, it demands a lien or franchise on the exportable raw resources, particularly mineral wealth, of the client country--in the same fashion as the British East India Company of the 18th and 19th centuries, which in turn functioned as the ``advance guard'' of the British monarchy.
Executive Outcomes was incorporated offshore, on the Isle of Man, in 1993, by Anthony Buckingham, a British businessman, and Simon Mann, a former British officer, the {Observer} reported, based on a leak to it from British intelligence. Buckingham is also chief executive of Heritage Oil and Gas, which in turn is linked to the Canadian firm Ranger Oil. Other firms operating out of the same headquarters in Chelsea Plaza 107, London, include Branch International Ltd. and Branch Mining Ltd.
Preliminary investigation by {EIR} has further determined that Executive Outcomes lies at the heart of the British monarch's raw materials cartels and secret intelligence operations, in conjunction with Bush's rogue apparat:
Through Sir David Steel, a former leader of the Liberal Party, Executive Outcomes and, presumably, its deployment, is a subsumed operation of the Queen's Privy Council. Steel is a close friend of EO's Buckingham, and is on the board of directors of EO's sister firm, Heritage Oil and Gas, according to {Le Figaro.} In 1977, Steel was inducted into the Privy Council, making him the youngest member of Britain's highest-level policy-making body.
The links between Executive Outcomes and Ranger Oil point to operational ties with the Bronfman family of Canada, whose scion, Edgar Bronfman of Toronto Broncorp, sits on the board of directors of Ranger. Recently, the Bronfman family merged its mammoth real estate firm, Trizec, with Barrick Gold, whose senior advisory board includes Sir George Bush. Barrick Gold is deeply involved in northeastern Zaire, where it has purchased 83,000 square kilometers of land. Zairean sources report that the so-called Zairean rebel Laurent Kabila is no more than a mercenary for Barrick and Anglo American Corp., sponsored by the British Crown-backed Ugandan and Rwandan militaries. Executive Outcomes, {Le Figaro} and other sources further verify, is deeply entrenched in Uganda, the key British marcher-lord state in the region.

http://www.aboutsudan.com/action/geopolitical/executive_outcomes.htm

Mercenaries aimed to topple oil-rich despot

The inside story of the ties that bind President Obiang and powerful American interests

By Paul Lashmar
14 March 2004

The tale of the 67 men of assorted nationalities now in a Zimbabwe jail accused of being mercenaries continued to unfurl yesterday like the plot of a lurid airport novel.

A bit too much like fiction, in fact, involving as it does a cast that includes the despotic leader of a little-known West African state, the Eton-educated son of an English cricket captain, fake passports, and a shadowy company registered in the Channel Islands that is linked to SAS old boys. All this, plus talk of CIA, MI6 and Spanish secret service activity, and a plane now impounded at Harare airport that contained equipment more suited to burglary than seizures of power.

SNIP...

But if who paid whom for what services has not yet been revealed, the intended target is not in doubt: President Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo, leader of a country whose lack of renown belies its strategic significance. And for "strategic" read oil. Not for nothing is this land known in US government circles as the "Kuwait of the Gulf of Guinea". Not without reason has President Bush welcomed President Obiang, a confirmed if not convicted corrupt despot, to the White House. He may be a despot, but as presider over an oil-rich state, he is their despot.

The sight and smell of oil is everywhere palpable in the port of Malabo. From here you can see the flames shooting into the night sky from the offshore oilrigs. Every day tens of thousands of barrels are extracted from huge crude oil reserves underneath the seabed off Equatorial Guinea.It is one of the oil-rich sub-Saharan countries that now supplies 15 per cent of American oil. Experts predict that the amount of oil the US receives from the prolific fields of Nigeria, Equatorial Guinea and Angola will double in the next five years. Hence the succour that American companies - and, since 9/11, the American government - have given to Obiang. Vice President Dick Cheney has said: "Along with Latin America, West Africa is expected to be one of the fastest-growing sources of oil and gas for the American market."

http://news.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=501017&host=3&di ...

Jonathan J. Bush uncle to President George Walker Bush


Jonathan J. Bush (Jonathan James Bush) (1931- ) is an uncle to President George Walker Bush.

A Wall Street financier, Jonathan Bush pulled together two dozen investors to raise $3 million to help launch Arbusto. Among the investors was Dorothy Bush, George W.’s grandmother. At the same time, Jonathan Bush was lining up investors for Arbusto, he also was raising money for George H.W. Bush’s presidential explorations. Many of the funders were the same. <1>

Bush is a Trustee of the George Bush Presidential Library Foundation<2>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Speaking of the Watergate, Riggs National Bank, where Saudi Princess Al-Faisal had her 'Saudi money trail' bank account, has as one of its executives Jonathan Bush, an uncle of the president. The public has not learned whether Riggs - which services 95 percent of Washington's foreign embassies - will be turning over records relating to Saudi finance.
"Meanwhile, Bush has nominated William H. Donaldson to head the Securities and Exchange Commission. Donaldson, a longtime Bush family friend, was a Yale classmate of Jonathan Bush."

Source.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
May 31, 2000: Riggs Bank N.A. today announced that the Board of Directors of RIMCO, a wholly owned investment management subsidiary, has elected Jonathan J. Bush President & Chief Executive Officer and a Director, replacing Philip Tasho who resigned. In addition, Henry A. Dudley, Jr. was elected Chairman.
"Mr. Bush will continue as Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of J. Bush & Co., an investment management company he founded in 1970, which Riggs acquired in 1997. Mr. Dudley, a 24-year veteran of Riggs, will continue to be responsible for all of Riggs Bank's investment management, trust and private banking business.

"Located in the nation's capital, Riggs Bank has 53 branches in the Washington, DC metropolitan area, as well as banking offices in Miami, London and Berlin."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 26, 1991: "State Fines Bush's Brother in Stock Case" by Frank Phillips, Globe Staff.
"Massachusetts securities regulators have fined the stockbrokerage firm owned by President Bush's brother Jonathan $30,000 and barred it from trading with the general public for one year because the company and Bush violated state registration laws.

"As part of a consent order worked out with Secretary of State Michael J. Connolly's securities division, the New York firm of J. Bush & Co., whose only principal is Jonathan J. Bush, also agreed that it would offer to reimburse its clients in Massachusetts for stocks it had sold them since January 1988. . . .

"Connolly's securities chief, Neal Sullivan, said yesterday that Bush's problems began in February when Bush informed his agency that he had never registered as a broker-dealer in Massachusetts. But Sullivan said Bush compounded his legal problem by taking a cavalier attitude toward the violation of the Uniform Securities Act when he continued to carry out transactions even as state regulators were negotiating a consent decree with him.

"'That created great concern for us. We were dismayed,' Sullivan said. 'Anyone who has been notified that he is violating state law and continues to do so certainly exemplifies a cavalier attitude toward the registration laws.'" . . .


"Federal bank regulators are preparing to impose fines on Riggs Bank as soon as this week for not reporting millions of dollars in suspicious transactions at its embassy banking division and have notified bank officers and directors that they may be sanctioned individually, according to people familiar with the investigation. "
"Investigators are looking at the Saudi accounts for evidence of money laundering, which is the use of complex transactions to hide the origin or destination of funds related to illegal activities such as drug smuggling or terrorist acts. The Saudis ended their ties to the bank last month."

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2514119

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Jonathan_J._Bush

The checks from Princess Haifa were drawn on Riggs Bank in Washington D.C. One of the chief officers of Riggs Bank is Jonathan Bush, an uncle of President George W. Bush.

According to Margie Burns in her article titled Bush-connected firm provided security at World Trade Center, "Given that Jonathan Bush, the president's uncle, is a Riggs executive, it is difficult to understand any obstacle for US authorities pursuing the recently reported "Saudi money trail." The princess's charitable activities were processed through Riggs, but attention focused on the Saudis seems not to extend to the US bank they used."

http://www.opednews.com/duncan_bush_should_cry_uncle_and_releas.htm

"Riggs Bank’s failure to alert investigators to a large number of unusual cash transactions by the Saudi Embassy and other foreign bank customers has led to a wide-ranging investigation by Treasury Department regulators....

"'Anytime, you have suspicious money movements, and it’s not reported as needed, it hurts our overall efforts,' a senior U.S. counterterrorism official said ..."


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4687305 /

The president and CEO of Riggs Bank is Jonathan Bush, whose father was Prescott Bush, money-launderer to the Nazi party, and whose nephew is the court-appointed CEO of the United States of America.

So where has the money gone?


Oil Boom Enriches African Ruler.


That has been declared a "state secret" by Equatorial Guinea's ruler, Brig. Gen. Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo. But the Guinean ambassador to the U.S. and other sources close to Obiang say the country's oil funds are held in an account at Riggs Bank in Washington.

Multiple sources, including another Guinean government official, have since told the Los Angeles Times about the Riggs account. Several sources familiar with the account said it was controlled exclusively by Obiang and its balance has ranged from $300 million to $500 million during the last two years. An ExxonMobil spokeswoman declined to comment on payments it makes to Equatorial Guinea, citing a confidentiality agreement with the country. Amerada Hess and Riggs did not return phone calls.

The bank has provided mortgages on one of Obiang's two luxury homes in Maryland and on an official residence for Nsue in Virginia. A Riggs banker assisted Obiang's brother -- accused in State Department reports of ordering the torture of political prisoners -- in the purchase of a home in Virginia. The banker vouched for Obiang's brother as a "valued customer" in correspondence with the seller's agent.

Concerns about Equatorial Guinea are rooted in a history of petroleum-fueled corruption in its neighboring nations. Angola ranks 161st out of 173 countries on the United Nations' Human Development Index, which ranks nations according to their citizens' quality of life, and its president, Jose Eduardo dos Santos, is believed to have accumulated a vast personal fortune. The London-based group Global Witness, which investigates the oil business in Africa, estimates that at least $1.4 billion of Angola's energy revenue disappeared last year.

The situation in Nigeria is equally grim. In April, the family of former strongman Gen. Sani Abacha agreed to return $1 billion that he stole between 1993 and 1998. That was only about one-quarter of the money that the current Nigerian government accuses Abacha of embezzling during his reign. African countries provide the United States with about 15% of its oil, nearly as much as Saudi Arabia. That figure could grow to 25% by 2015, according to a study by a U.S. intelligence panel. Urged on by the oil industry, the administration hopes to use African oil to reduce the United States' dependence on Middle Eastern oil.

more
http://www.derechos.org/nizkor/econ/oil1.html

..According to two articles in the Progressive Populist written by Margie Burns, from 1993 to 2000, Bush served on the board of Securacom (since renamed Stratesec). The chairman of the board of Stratesec is Wirt D. Walker III, a cousin of Marvin and George W. Bush. Securacom had contracts to provide security for Dulles International Airport (the airport from which American Airlines Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon, originated) and the World Trade Center in New York.

Securacom's backers include a number of Kuwaitis through a company called KuwAm Corp (Kuwaiti-American Corp.). Stratesec also has Saudi investors.

Walker also serves as a managing director of KuwAm, which maintains offices within the Watergate complex along with Riggs Bank, on whose board Bush's uncle, Jonathan Bush, sits. Saudi Princess Haifa al Faisal, the wife of Saudi Ambassador to the US Prince Bandar, used a Riggs account to funnel money to Omar al Bayoumi and Osama Basnan, two Saudi students in California associated with two of the 911 hijackers.

http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/10-16-03/discussion.cgi.16.html

PRESIDENT BUSH'S UNCLE IS A CHIEF EXECUTIVE AT RIGGS BANK
According to the nonprofit Texans for Public Justice, Riggs and Equatorial Guinea Jonathan Bush is the President and CEO of Riggs Investment Management - a major arm of Riggs Bank. He is also the uncle of President George W. Bush. The President "credits the investors sent his way by this banker uncle as a key to his 'success' in the Texas oil industry in the early '80s." According to Public Citizen, the uncle Jonathan was a Bush Pioneer, having raised more than $100,000 for his nephew in 2000.

more
http://www.davidsirota.com /

Riggs fails to detect, report suspicious cash transactions


The Federal Reserve ordered Riggs International Banking Corp. to hire an outside consultant to conduct a thorough review of the bank's transactions.

BY CHRISTINA HOAG

[email protected]


BANKING

Riggs Bank has been fined $25 million by the Treasury Department for failing to detect and report tens of millions of dollars in suspicious transactions by foreign governments, particularly Saudi Arabia and Equatorial Guinea.

On Friday, the Federal Reserve ordered Riggs' Miami operation, Riggs International Banking Corp., to hire an outside consultant to conduct a thorough review of the bank's transactions and money-laundering controls.

The McLean, Va.-based bank said last month that it planned to shutter the 24-year-old Miami subsidiary, located at 800 Brickell Ave., ``to significantly reduce its risk exposure.''

Treasury's Office of the Comptroller of the Currency also ordered the bank on Thursday to adopt new anti-money-laundering controls including implementing internal audits and ensuring competent management.

In a statement, the bank said: ``Riggs is 100 percent committed to fulfilling all of our regulatory responsibilities and to doing our part to protect the financial system, and we will hasten our efforts toward these goals.''

The Treasury agency found that Riggs had violated the Bank Secrecy Act on numerous occasions


more
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/8670766.htm


"Pioneers" and "Rangers" raised almost $300 M for Chimperror.


Tha's a lot of knockin' around money. What do you suppose they expect in return? Will they survive Chimpageddon?

Pioneers Fill Campaign War Chest, Then Capitalize

By Thomas B. Edsall, Sarah Cohen and James V. Grimaldi
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, May 16, 2004; Page A01

First of two articles

GREENSBORO, Ga. -- Joined by President Bush, Vice President Cheney and a host of celebrities, hundreds of wealthy Republicans gathered at the Ritz-Carlton Lodge here in the first weekend in April, not for a fundraiser but for a celebration of fundraisers. It was billed as an "appreciation weekend," and there was much to appreciate.

As Bush "Pioneers" who had raised at least $100,000 each for the president's reelection campaign, or "Rangers" who had raised $200,000 each, the men and women who shot skeet with Cheney, played golf with pros Ben Crenshaw and Fuzzy Zoeller and laughed at the jokes of comedian Dennis Miller are the heart of the most successful political money operation in the nation's history. Since 1998, Bush has raised a record $296.3 million in campaign funds, giving him an overwhelming advantage in running against Vice President Al Gore and now Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.). At least a third of the total -- many sources believe more than half -- was raised by 631 people.

BIG SNIP...

"This is the most impressive, organized, focused and disciplined fundraising operation I have ever been involved in," declared Dirk Van Dongen, president of the National Association of Wholesaler-Distributors, who has been raising money for GOP candidates since 1980. "They have done just about everything right."

For achieving their fundraising goals, Pioneers receive a relatively modest token, the right to buy a set of silver cuff links with an engraved Lone Star of Texas (Rangers can buy a more expensive belt buckle set). Their real reward is entree to the White House and the upper levels of the administration.

CONTINUED...


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29142-2004May15.html


Jonathan Bush's campaign cash...in detail 1993-2004


From Connecticut:
http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?st=CT&last=Bush&first=J ...

From New York:
http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?st=NY&last=Bush&first=J ...

CNN: Bank fined $25 million in terrorism probe


<SNIP>
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Federal regulators fined Riggs Bank a record $25 million on Thursday for allegedly violating anti-money laundering laws in its handling of tens of millions in cash transactions in Saudi-controlled accounts under investigation for possible links to terrorism financing.

The civil fine against the midsize Washington bank with a near-exclusive franchise on business with the capital's diplomatic community is the largest ever imposed on a financial institution for such violations, experts said. It had been expected.
</SNIP>

Wouldn't it be interesting to see if any of the Saudis secretly flown out of the US on 9/12-9/13 were on the list?

If I had the money, I would place a large bet on it. I imagine I would be quite rich as well...

LAT: U.S. Investigates Oil Firms' Deals in West Africa
THE WORLD
U.S. Investigates Oil Firms' Deals in West Africa

Sources say real estate purchase and leases in Equatorial Guinea may have improperly benefited the nation's president.

By Ken Silverstein, Times Staff Writer

WASHINGTON — Federal investigators have been looking into American oil companies' real estate dealings in Equatorial Guinea to determine whether they have improperly benefited the country's despotic ruler, according to sources familiar with the inquiries.

...

Investigators are trying to determine whether oil companies paid prices so far above the market rates that they violated the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which bars companies from bribi

[seemslikeadream]

95. Investigative Report Is Alan Greenspan a Money Launderer?

Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan takes a low profile when it comes to billions in money laundering.

Posted July 1, 2004
By Christopher Whalen


Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan takes a low profile when it comes to billions in money laundering.


Members of Congress recently made some tough statements about violations of money-laundering laws committed by Riggs National Bank and Swiss giant Union Bank of Switzerland. Rep. Sue Kelly (R-N.Y.), who chairs the House Financial Services subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations, began a hearing at the end of May by noting that the panel would examine the "inexcusable lack of compliance and enforcement" by both banks and the agencies that supposedly regulate them.

Kelly lambasted Daniel Stipano, deputy chief counsel of the Treasury's Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC), noting that the OCC's credibility was so diminished that Riggs employees continued to violate the Bank Secrecy Act, even after an OCC examiner was placed on site. Said Kelly: "It is evident that this is still a work in progress" and concluded that a new centralized regulator to attack money laundering is needed. Said Kelly: "Brazen violators should be going to jail."

These latest cases of major violations of money-laundering laws mimic the earlier scandal involving the sales of dollars in Russia via the Bank of New York, scandals that are just the latest examples of financial institutions that got caught in the complex web of laws and regulations governing the movement of cash offshore. So rampant and widespread is the movement of dollars offshore that the basic story had been dramatized by films and TV shows such as Law & Order.

"Nearly three years ago, the Justice Department called the Bank of New York money-laundering scandal 'just' a Russian tax-evasion scheme," reported Lucy Komisar for Pacific News Service in August 2002. "Now, European investigations show that BONY was a channel for organized crime. And according to a document obtained by Pacific News Service, some of the alleged Russian mafia leaders have operated freely in the United States. The widening scandal reveals Washington's dangerous reluctance to confront international criminal networks. In August 1999, U.S. investigators revealed that Russians had laundered at least $7 billion through accounts at BONY, a major U.S. institution with important Russian business."

more
http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/06/11/National/Investigative.Repor...

SAUDI ARABIA
Under the Influence

As a presidential candidate in 2000, then-Gov. George W. Bush promised that, if elected, he would use the full weight of the White House to pressure oil-producing countries to increase production if there was a gas-price crisis. He charged, "The president of the United States must jawbone OPEC members to lower the price" and promised that as president he would "convince them to open up the spigot to increase the supply." Yet, when Saudi Arabia led the fight within OPEC last month to cut production and raise prices, the president "refused to lean on the oil cartel" and refused to even "personally lobby OPEC leaders to change their minds." Now, with esteemed journalist Bob Woodward reporting that the Bush administration and top Saudi officials agreed to manipulate oil prices in conjunction with the 2004 election, President Bush's passivity towards Saudi Arabia is raising disturbing questions. Why won't the administration exert serious pressure on the regime both on oil and terrorism policy? Why does the president continue to refer to Saudi Arabia as "our friend" when the country has potential ties to the 9/11 terrorists? Why, as author Daniel Benjamin reported, did the administration weaken efforts to scrutinize potential Saudi money-laundering schemes before 9/11? A look at the president's "deep personal ties with Saudi officials" – and his financial connections to the Saudi royal family and powerful Saudi businessmen – may provide clues.

BUSH'S PERSONAL FINANCIAL TIES TO SAUDIS RUN DEEP: According to various sources, Bush has been awash in Saudi money for years. Journalist/author Craig Unger in his new book "House of Bush, House of Saud" traced millions "in investments and contracts that went from the Saudis over the past 20 years to companies in which the Bushes and their allies have had prominent positions - Harken Energy, Halliburton, and the Carlyle Group among them." According to the Boston Herald, that includes a $1 million gift from Prince Bandar to the Bush Presidential Library in Texas.

THE BCCI-BUSH-SAUDI-TERRORIST NEXUS: The Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI), which was investigated by Congress in the 1980s, appears to be at the nexus of the Bush-Saudi connection. It's principal was Khalid bin Mahfouz, a man USA Today reported was among Saudi businessmen who, even after the U.S.S. Cole attack, "continued to transfer tens of millions of dollars to bank accounts linked to indicted terrorist Osama bin Laden." Under Mahfouz (who was later indicted for his actions at BCCI), the Wall Street Journal noted in 1991 that there was a "mosaic of BCCI connections surrounding Harken Energy" and "number of BCCI-connected people who had dealings with Harken — all since George W. Bush came on board." And according to U.S. officials who investigated the bank in the 1980s, "BCCI was the mother and father of terrorist financing operations." A secret French intelligence report "identifies dozens of companies and individuals who were involved with BCCI and were found to be dealing with bin Laden after the bank collapsed. Many went on to work in banks and charities identified by the United States and others as supporting al Qaeda."

WAS BCCI'S INDICTED PRINCIPAL A BUSH BUSINESS BACKER?: Author Kevin Phillips, a top Republican strategist under President Nixon, reported in his new book, "Bush made his first connection in the late 1970s with James Bath, a Texas businessmen who served as the North American representative for two rich Saudis (and Osama bin Laden relatives) - billionaire Salem bin Laden and banker and BCCI insider Khalid bin Mahfouz. Bath put $50,000 into Bush's 1979 Arbusto oil partnership, probably using bin Laden-bin Mahfouz funds." Also of interest: Former CIA Director James Woolsey testified to the Senate on 9/3/98 that Mafouz's sister was married to Osama bin Laden. And according to the conservative American Spectator, "Bush has given conflicting statements about Bath's investment in Arbusto, finally admitting to the Wall Street Journal that he was aware that Bath represented Saudi investors."

more
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=99415

Some say the Western economies would collapse w/o Narcodollars


Some "underreported" info from 1997. Please note the players remain largely the same -- the Big Guys:

MONEY LAUNDERING

Narco-corruption in North America is most significantly manifested in money laundering. Ninety-one percent of the $197 billion spent on cocaine in the U.S. stays there, and American banks launder $100 billion of drug money every year. Those identified as money laundering conduits include the Bank of Boston, Republic National Bank of New York, Landmark First National Bank, Great American Bank, People's Liberty Bank and Trust Co. of Kentucky, and Riggs National Bank of Washington.

Citibank helped Raul Salinas (the brother of former Mexican president Carlos Salinas) move millions of dollars out of Mexico into secret Swiss bank accounts under false names. Swiss authorities have declared that this money (which totals $100 million) consists of payments from drug traffickers to Salinas, and are preparing to seize it.

In 1993, two directors at the American Express Bank International (AEBI) in Beverly Hills, California wired drug money from Juan Garcia Abrego - the Mexican cocaine baron arrested and extradited to the United States in January 1996 - from the First City Texas Bank in McAllen, Texas to accounts in the Manhattan branch of Banker's Trust of New York. AEBI then invested the money in London, Switzerland, Mexico and Houston.

In addition, Manufacturers Hanover, Chase Manhattan Bank, Chemical Bank and Irving Trust have admitted not reporting money transfers to the U.S. government (the Bank Secrecy Act of 1970 requires that all transactions over $10,000 be reported).
The Bank of America has been fined $4.75 million for not revealing transfers of more than $12 billion.

CONTINUED BFEE CRIMINALITY...

http://www.ckln.fm/~asadismi/cancon.html

The source is a guy specializing in Canada's role in the Octopus. Most interesting reading...


Octafish
CRIME OF THE CENTURY: CIA Cocaine International Agency
Now, who headed the CIA when all this was taking off?

Would it be the same name that cropped up during the assassination of President Kennedy?

CRIME OF THE CENTURY:
CIA: Cocaine International Agency

"(It is an) issue that feels like a dagger in the heart of African-Americans... Any evidence that supported drug trafficking would indeed be the crime of the century." --USA Today

In a historic report released in October 1998, the CIA's Inspector General (IG) Frederick Hitz confirmed long-standing allegations that the Agency facilitated drug trafficking by the Contras during the 1980s. The CIA-created Contra army fought against the leftist Sandinista government of Nicaragua from 1981 to 1990 in a war that killed 40,000 Nicaraguans. The Contras were notorious for targeting civilians, schools and medical centres. Hitz listed 50 Contras involved in the drug trade including some of its top leaders and admitted that the CIA placed drug traffickers in command positions in the Contra army. The Agency had extensive knowledge of Contra drug trafficking and protected it by failing to act against the traffickers, withholding evidence and misleading investigators. The Reagan administration provided similar "protection" and the report shows that drug trafficking and money laundering went up to Reagan's National Security Council (NSC), where Lt. Col. Oliver North was in charge of Contra matters.

Hitz's report marks the CIA's first admission about alliances with drug traffickers, an alliance it has maintained since 1943 when the Agency was known as the Office of Strategic Services (OSS). This long and sordid history involves CIA collaboration with heroin exporters in Sicily, France, Burma, Laos, Thailand, Afghanistan and Pakistan as well as with cocaine-dealing Cuban exiles in Miami. In Laos, CIA planes ferried heroin which addicted thousands of U.S. soldiers fighting in Vietnam.

The Inspector General's report was issued in response to Gary Webb's series of articles in the San Jose Mercury News entitled "Dark Alliance" which appeared in August 1996 and linked drug smuggling by the Contras to the crack cocaine explosion in Los Angeles during the 1980s. Webb was forced to resign from his job at the Mercury News due to a campaign of vilification unleashed against him by the New York Times, Washington Post and Los Angeles Times, but the storm of controversy generated by his series forced the CIA to issue the report. The IG report vindicates Webb and is far more damning to the CIA than Webb's series.

According to Hitz, the CIA knew about Contra drug running from the start. A September 1981 CIA cable stated that ADREN (the earliest Contra force) had decided to use drug trafficking as a "financing mechanism." The cable adds that in July 1981, two ADREN members made the first delivery of drugs to Miami. A few months after discovering that ADREN was smuggling drugs into the U.S., the CIA made one of ADREN's leaders, Enrique Bermudez, commander of the Nicaraguan Democratic Force (FDN), the main Contra army which was organized by the Agency. In 1982, Bermudez enlisted Norwin Meneses, a major Nicaraguan cocaine trafficker, to raise money for the Contras. Meneses and Danilo Blandon, another Nicaraguan trafficker, then began selling tons of cocaine to black street gangs in Los Angeles (with millions of dollars in proceeds going to the Contras), helping touch off the crack explosion in the U.S. A 1988 FBI cable identifies Meneses as working for the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA). The FBI also believed that Meneses "was and may still be an informant for the CIA." At the time, the FBI was unsuccessfully trying to indict Meneses on federal cocaine trafficking charges. The Meneses-Blandon drug ring was concentrated in California but also sold cocaine in Oregon, Washington and Texas.

CONTINUED...

http://www.ckln.fm/~asadismi/ciadrugs.html


Wall Street Fine Tracker Riggs Bank
In separate settlements with the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency and the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network of the U.S. Department of Treasury, Riggs Bank, a unit of Riggs National (nasdaq: RIGS - news - people ), will pay a $25 million civil money penalty related to alleged violations of the Bank Secrecy Act and alleged failure to comply with an existing consent order. Riggs also entered into a cease and desist order with the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System. As a result of the settlement, Riggs is selling its Riggs International Banking unit. The OCC said Riggs failed to properly supervise the bank's relationships with foreign governments, including Saudi Arabia and Equatorial Guinea. Riggs Bank agreed to the penalty without admitting or denying any wrongdoing or relevant findings.

http://www.forbes.com/finance/2002/10/24/cx_aw_1024fine.html

The good patriotAnti-terror rules mean new hassles for U.S. financial firm


Lax internal controls have caught up with Riggs National Bank, which caters to the international community in Washington.

Last month, Riggs agreed to pay a $25 million civil fine after regulators discovered the company failed to monitor or report cash withdraws and international drafts that were returned to the bank.

On top of Riggs, U.S. regulators slapped Swiss-banking giant UBS with a $100 million fine for violating dollar-trading restrictions with Cuba, Iran, Libya and the former Yugoslavia.

In the ongoing war on terror, some financial companies wonder if their new controls are bearing fruit. It is common for financial companies never to hear back from the government on a suspicious transaction they report. Added Djinis, the former Treasury lawyer: "There's been a great deal of frustration."

more
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7BBA74BCE3-F4A7-4D13-A...


Move Seen to Press Banks to Deal With Embassies
By TIMOTHY L. O'BRIEN

Published: June 9, 2004


The State Department is pressing federal bank regulators to address the inability of some foreign embassies to find banking services in the United States, according to several people briefed on the matter.

An investigation into suspicious transactions in embassy accounts at the Riggs National Corporation has made banks wary of engaging in such business.

While several countries are having difficulty finding a bank as Riggs shuts down a large portion of its embassy business, the State Department's move was primarily driven by the needs of Saudi Arabia, an American ally whose embassy accounts are at the center of the Riggs investigation, these people said. The investigation is focusing on accounts that may have been used to launder money or finance terrorist activities.

"The State Department is very concerned that the Saudis cannot find a bank," said one senior regulatory official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

....

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/09/business/09bank.html

Snazzy

After Riggs, Embassy Accounts Can't Find a Home

By Nora Boustany and Terence O'Hara
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, June 10, 2004; Page E01

Inside safety deposit boxes at Riggs Bank is more than $710 million in cashier's checks that Riggs doesn't want. Neither does any other bank.

The stash, once in checking accounts held by the embassies of Saudi Arabia and Equatorial Guinea, is likely to grow. After being fined $25 million for violating anti-money-laundering laws in its embassy banking division, Riggs has asked more than 100 embassy clients to find other banking arrangements by mid-July, according to sources familiar with the matter who spoke on condition they not be identified.

But the business, in the words of one area banker who has refused to accept it, is proving "toxic." The embassy of Saudi Arabia, a key focus of the regulatory probes at Riggs, and a number of African and South American countries are having so much trouble finding a new bank that the State Department has asked banking regulators to step in.

....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29674-2004Jun9.html

(I like how they call moneylaundering.com a "trade journal).


Snazzy
More fallout
(keeping Riggs bank scandal stuff together here)

Treasury IG Vs. OCC Over 'Obstructions'

American Banker Friday, June 11, 2004

By Michele Heller

WASHINGTON - The Office of the Comptroller of the Currency is under fire again - this time by the Treasury Department Office of Inspector General.

The IG's office is complaining that the banking agency has hampered its ability to investigate national banks accused of criminal activities, according to documents sent to Congress.

"The Department of the Treasury Office of Inspector General will conduct investigations of matters involving possible obstructions or corruptions of the bank oversight and examination responsibilities of the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency," then-Treasury Inspector General Jeffrey Rush Jr. wrote in a March 30 letter to eight congressional committees, including the Senate Banking, Senate Governmental Affairs, and House Financial Services panels. Mr. Rush retired in April.

...

According to the letters and other documents obtained by American Banker, OCC employees, including Deputy Chief Counsel Daniel Stipano, thwarted the inspector general's investigators who were brought into bank fraud cases by the Federal Bureau of Investigation or the Justice Department. This began late last year, and the IG formally complained to Comptroller John D. Hawke Jr. in mid-March, and then Congress later that month.

"On March 9, members of my office of investigations met with Brian McCormally, OCC's director of enforcement, to request access to OCC records and assistance with our inquiry in connection with the Guaranty National Bank in Tallahassee, Florida," Mr. Rush wrote in a March 18 memo to Mr. Hawke. "I am informed that Mr. McCormally not only refused our request for information, but also questioned the authority of my office."

....

http://www.americanbanker.com/article.html?id=20040610WP7ZGAVD&from=Ho...

Sounds like OCC not only protected Saudis for 7 years (even after 9/11), but were also protecting a predatory lender (now failed) in Tallahassee.

So, reviewing, we're up to three Florida banking operations that OCC let slide (BAC, Riggs International, Guaranty Natio


Snazzy
It's going to be Jeb too
The money laundering nexus is Florida naturally. Need to find out if and how under Jeb regulations changed there, and what's the BFEE connection to the regulators who are ignoring the whole thing.

And you're right, Jonathan Bush is staying remarkably out of the picture, even though the fine for Riggs had at least something to do with Riggs doing foreign banking (Edge Act) while also doing investments. I'm not expert in this, but the idea is somehow to prevent foreign banks from influencing our market--a firewall. So banks like Riggs International are not supposed to also be investment houses. When Riggs National (the DC parent bank) bought J Bush & Co., they entered a gray area. Part of the reason for the OCC fine beyond just money laundering for terrorists and brutal dictators.

One cool thing about this, it's actually the Patriot Act that is swimming up and bitting BFEE on the ass.

DID YOU HEAR? . . . Riggs Bank

Monday, June 7, 2004; Page E02

-- Robert M. Garsson Jr., a spokesman for the comptroller of the currency, on federal bank examiner R. Ashley Lee, who oversaw Riggs Bank during the years it violated anti-money-laundering rules. Lee joined Riggs as a vice president just weeks after leaving government in 2002.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21023-2004Jun6.html

Regulator Joined Riggs

The bank examiner in charge of reviewing Riggs Bank operations during the years it violated federal money-laundering rules was hired by the bank just weeks after resigning his government post in 2002. Officials at the Comptroller of the Currency conceded they had been too lenient in overseeing Riggs. But they failed to mention the subsequent hiring of the examiner, R. Ashley Lee, during two days of congressional testimony. Apparently there is no law that prevents Lee from working for banks he once regulated.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17416-2004Jun5.html

Senate Bank chairman seeking Riggs details
By Marcy Gordon, AP Business Writer | June 4, 2004

WASHINGTON -- The Senate Banking Committee chairman is asking for details about the federal examiner who oversaw Riggs Bank during a period of deficiency and later became a Riggs vice president.



R. Ashley Lee was the lead examiner for Riggs in the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, a Treasury Department agency, from 1998 until he retired in October 2002 and went to work for the bank two weeks later, officials said, confirming a report in Friday's Washington Post.

Panel chairman Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., and Rep. Sue Kelly, R-N.Y., who heads a House oversight committee, were not told of the examiner's status when they questioned Comptroller of the Currency John Hawke and an aide about Riggs in separate hearings this week.

Shelby plans to send Hawke a letter asking for information related to Lee, said his spokesman, Andrew Gray. "We were not aware of this, and he (Shelby) felt that it's something that should have been brought up," he said.
http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2004/06/04/senate_bank_chairma...


seemslikeadream

Regulator Doesn't Rule Out Riggs Charges
Posted on Thu, Jun. 03, 2004

MARCY GORDON

Associated Press


WASHINGTON - A top banking regulator didn't rule out the possibility of criminal charges in the case of Riggs Bank as he accepted blame Thursday for failed oversight that allowed deficiencies in monitoring suspicious transactions to continue at the bank for seven years.

Comptroller of the Currency John Hawke repeatedly acknowledged in testimony to the Senate Banking Committee that his Treasury Department agency failed to act quickly or forcefully enough in the face of repeated lapses and allowed bank officials leeway for years because they appeared to be cooperative.

"It is clear to me that there was a failure of supervision," Hawke said. "We did not probe as soon or as deeply as we should have. ... We gave them too much latitude over too long a period of time."

The banking agency fined Riggs a record $25 million last month for alleged violations of laws to prevent money laundering in its handling of millions of dollars in foreign-held accounts.

Riggs, a midsize Washington bank with a near-exclusive franchise on business with the capital's diplomatic community, was accused of failing to report to the government suspicious transactions in accounts controlled by diplomats from Saudi Arabia and officials of Equatorial Guinea. The FBI and Treasury regulators have investigated the Saudi transactions - which included cash withdrawals of as much as $1 million - for possible connections to terrorism financing.

more
http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/business/8830468.htm


seemslikeadream

A little background from my friend DulceDecorum


Show me the money

Take Teodoro Nguema Obiang Mbasogo, a member of the same dictatorial ruling family that has ruled Equatorial Guinea since its independence from Spain in 1968. The dictatorship has been in power for about as long as Saddam held sway over Iraq. But Obiang is sitting on top of huge oil revenues and he is in tight with Bush's, Cheney's, and Condoleezza Rice's Exxon Mobil, Hess, and Marathon oil buddies in Houston and Dallas. Equatorial Guinea's oil revenues, estimated at $700 billion in 2003, keep Obiang in power. His son, Teodorino, spends a lot of time in Paris and Washington, where his dad just spent $3.5 million for two mansions courtesy of mortgages from Riggs Bank, where the African kleptocracy keeps much of its ill-gotten oil revenue.

It does not matter to the Bush regime that Obiang keeps his political prisoners in dark dungeons that would have made Saddam envious, or that Obiang executes opponents he finds particularly distasteful. Nor does it matter to Bush that Equatorial Guinea's children are dying from malaria, intestinal worms, and malnutrition because the Obiang dictatorship does not provide the country with adequate sanitation or medical care. The country's state radio recently pronounced that Obiang was God and that therefore he could kill anyone without accounting to anyone. It sounds a lot like Saddam. But in Obiang's case, he has the full support of Bush because Obiang is turning over his country's oil to the United States with himself getting enough money to buy Rolls Royces, Bentleys, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, and diamond-studded Rolex watches. Like Saddam with his son, Qusay, Obiang has designated his son, Teodorino, as his heir apparent.
http://www.newsinsider.org/madsta/saddam_is_captured_long_live_america ...

In June, Tony Blair is to host a transparency conference in London aimed at tackling the corruption that surrounds the exploitation of natural resources in developing countries. Equatorial Guinea is the only oil-producing country to have refused to attend, notes the piece. Equatorial Guinea has become a major oil and gas producer in the past 10 years, yet the 500,000-strong population remains in poverty.

Details of the Riggs Bank account have emerged after the country's ambassador, Teodoro Biyogo Nsue, who is President Obiang's brother-in-law, unwisely mentioned that oil revenue was held at Riggs during a presentation late last year at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

An investigation by the Los Angeles Times alleged that President Obiang is the account's sole signatory and more than $300 million of the country's energy earnings has been deposited in the account by oil companies active in Equatorial Guinea, including ExxonMobil and Amerada Hess. Alejandro Evuna Owono, a Guinean aide, denied to the LA Times that the government was secretive about oil revenue. "The IMF and the World Bank know national production figures, but we can use the money as we see fit," he said.
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/NEWS/0,,date:05-12-2003~menuP ...

Simon P. Kareri, Vice President and Senior International Banking Manager, was promoted to Senior Vice President and Senior International Banking Manager. Kareri joined Riggs in 1994 as Vice President and African Caribbean Embassy Manager.
http://www.riggsbank.com/Discover_Riggs/jan25_01.html

Malabo has been abuzz with rumours of a coup for the past few weeks and the authorities here are convinced that the US intelligence service, the CIA, was aware of the rumours. They say that this might explain why, as we exclusively reported in our last issue, the Washington-based Riggs Bank told Obiang to close his account with the bank when he visited it in late February. One of the bank’s senior vice-president and senior international banking manager, the Kenyan-born Simon Kareri, who handled the account — which had $300m — was subsequently fired. Curiously, all the African-Americans who were associated with Kareri at the bank were also dismissed. A number of people were quizzed by the FBI who wanted to know all manners of things about Equatorial Guinea and especially about the country’s First Family, which minister was related to Obiang and which companies he owns.

FBI officers had also raided Kareri’s home Washington. They asked his Senegalese wife a lot of questions on Equatorial Guinea which she could not answer. The FBI officers made it clear to her that they were not after her husband but were interested in any files on Equatorial Guinea that he may have left at home. They then took away all the computers that were in Kareri’s home. At the time Kareri was in Malabo. Curiously, when he returned to Washington after the failure of the coup attempt he contacted the FBI expressing his willingness to be interviewed by him but they declined, saying that they saw no need to interview him. No court charges have been brought against him and he is believed to be seeking legal counsel and may sue Riggs Bank.

Malabo authorities find it ‘awfully suspicious’ that for the past two weeks, the bank had refused to unfreeze Equatorial Guinea’s funds. Apparently, they had recently decided that if there were to be a coup in Malabo they would freeze Obiang and his government’s accounts. This was not done with the Haitian government account when Haitian President Jean Baptiste Aristide was ousted the first time. He was able to have access to his government’s funds with the same bank.
http://217.199.168.239/040.html

The unmasking of the coup plot may also embarrass Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, who has had several meetings with Moto recently, and was said by military sources to have been aware of the plot. Aznar is due to stand down ahead of national elections in the next few weeks.

The affair will also be a test case for South Africa's anti-mercenary legislation, given that much of the planning for the coup happened there and that most of the mercenaries were former South African soldiers.

President Obiang will doubtless try to use the failed coup to his advantage. His position has seemed to weaken in recent months, with the succession battle heating up and rifts developing within the country's tiny ruling clique. The latest blow to Obiang came late last month when he visited Washington D.C. in an attempt to resolve problems with his government's account at Riggs Bank. Obiang is the sole signatory on that account, which had a balance of more than US$600 million. The account has recently been investigated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and an official at Riggs Bank has been interrogated by US agents.
http://africa-confidential.com/latestissue.asp

Tony Worthington:
At one time, America had little interest in Africa, but increasing amounts of oil are coming from it. We are in a new version of the great game in which the powers are struggling for resources. The Americans are trying to get out of reliance on Saudi Arabia and west Africa is the middle of an oil boom. I was astonished by the figures: 7 billion of an estimated 8 billion barrels of oil discovered last year were found off the west coast of Africa. West Africa now sends almost as much oil to the United States as Saudi Arabia. With that change comes military interest as well, but I do not have time to speak about that.

Nigeria is the worst case of a country discovering oil and experiencing misery. Following the discovery of huge oilfields, per capita income fell by 23 per cent. since 1975. I watched with interest when democracy took over in Nigeria, but I have seen no further signs of transparency. When we went to Nigeria, it was hard for politicians to find out what was going on. In Angola, more than $1 billion—about a third of state income—disappears each year and cannot be accounted for.

My favourite example of the relationship between the United States, its oil companies and African states is that of Equatorial Guinea. It is a tiny country of about 500,000 people—about a third the size of Northern Ireland—but it sits on oil. In Washington, almost within sight of the White House, there is a place called Dupont circle. There one will find Riggs bank, in which, it is alleged by the Los Angeles Times and corroborated by Global Witness, there is a bank account holding between $300 million and $500 million in the name of the President of Equatorial Guinea. That amount of money can only have come from Equatorial Guinea's oil resources, because oil represents 90 per cent. of its income. The dominant oil companies are Exxon and Chevron—American companies that reveal no information about their payments to that country. If they did, we would know about the route that the money followed. The President of Equatorial Guinea is

4 Nov 2003 : Column 758

therefore accused of huge money laundering in President Bush's neighbourhood bank, but there has been no sign of any attempt to find out whether that is the origin of the money.
The magazine, New Internationalist, ranks the world's regimes from one star to five star. Five star is "excellent"; one star is "appalling". It gives Equatorial Guinea one star, saying that all power rests in the presidency and that the president has no political vision beyond self-enrichment, self-aggrandisement and ruthless repression. No one in this place would achieve that record. We used to treat Equatorial Guinea as a pariah state. It is said that around one third of its people have fled. When it had elections last year, the leaders of the three opposition parties were locked up in jail and President Obiang got 99 per cent. of the vote. That gives us a clue that something is wrong. Even the US Department of Energy reports strong evidence of Government misappropriation of the oil funds that represent 90 per cent. of the country's income.
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200203/cmhansrd ...

And now, equal time with Mbob Mbodelango.

Madrid.- Feb. 26, 2004 .- The F.B.I. is investigating Teodoro Nsue Biyogo, former Ambassador of Equatorial Guinea in Washington and brother-in-law of President Obiang Nguema Mbasogo.
http://www.guinea-ecuatorial.org/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid= ...

There are daily flights between Dallas in Texas and Malabo. This is possibly the highest frequency of direct airline flights between the United States and Africa. These are commuter flights that bring drilling workers from Dallas.

The oil companies pay a hefty fee to Mbassogo for drilling oil. This is paid into Mbassogo’s personal bank account in the Riggs Bank in Washington, DC owned by Mbassogo. The citizens of Equatorial Guinea have no idea how much money is deposited in that bank account.

Ultimately the wealth is shared between the Mbassogo family and his cronies and the oil companies. The rest of the citizens of Equatorial Guinea are living in abject poverty.

Why is the Mugabe regime trying to show off? They have invited reporters into the seized jet. The Home Affairs Minister has made several press statements on the matter.

In fact, the entire ZANUPF machinery has climbed onto the bandwagon on blitzing the world with information about this case. Mugabe’s foreign minister Mudenge said the mercenaries should face even the capital punishment. As it turned out, the mercenaries are to be tried for lesser crimes.

The lawyer for the mercenaries has already been allowed to go and see the so-called mercenaries. The lawyer later said the men were being well cared for. He said their only complaint is they are being given TOO MUCH FOOD.
http://actzim.com/lfamar15.html

Thank you very much for your input, Mr. Mbodelango.
I am sure we will have occasion to call on you again.

Jonathan J. Bush (Jonathan James Bush) (1931- ) is an uncle to President George Walker Bush.
May 31, 2000: Riggs Bank N.A. today announced that the Board of Directors of RIMCO, a wholly owned investment management subsidiary, has elected Jonathan J. Bush President & Chief Executive Officer and a Director, replacing Philip Tasho who resigned. In addition, Henry A. Dudley, Jr. was elected Chairman.
"Mr. Bush will continue as Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of J. Bush & Co., an investment management company he founded in 1970, which Riggs acquired in 1997. Mr. Dudley, a 24-year veteran of Riggs, will continue to be responsible for all of Riggs Bank's investment management, trust and private banking business.
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Jonathan_J._Bush

According to several of those sources and others familiar with the account, more than $300 million of the country's energy earnings has been deposited in the account by international oil companies active in Equatorial Guinea, including ExxonMobil Corp. and Amerada Hess Corp. The money is under the direct control of Obiang, the sources say.
The arrangement has raised concerns at the International Monetary Fund, where officials have refused to provide assistance to Equatorial Guinea until Obiang accounts for his country's oil money and have urged him to transfer it to its home treasury.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/natres/oil/2003/0122gui.htm

From what I have been given to understand, the Riggs Bank may very well experience considerable difficulty in coming up with $300 million CASH. It is at times like these that an uncle might call on his nephew for assistance.


seemslikeadream

Feds missed problems at Riggs for decades
By Washington Post
Jun 03, 2004 - 07:55:16 am PDT


WASHINGTON -- Federal examiners found shortcomings in Riggs Bank's anti-money-laundering compliance as far back as 1997 but did little to remedy them until years later, a top federal bank regulator said Wednesday.

Daniel Stipano, deputy chief counsel of the office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC), told a House subcommittee Wednesday that the OCC made "errors of judgment" with respect to Riggs' compliance with the Bank Secrecy Act (BSA), the law requiring banks to monitor and report on suspicious customer activity.


Riggs was fined $25 million last month after a yearlong OCC investigation found that numerous, multimillion-dollar transactions in the bank's embassy banking group should have been reported to law enforcement agencies as suspicious but were not. Both the Senate and House banking committees have called hearings on Bank Secrecy Act enforcement and have been sharply critical of regulators for failing to catch Riggs' problems sooner.

Of particular concern, said Rep. Sue Kelly, R-N.Y., is whether regulators are ensuring that banks are on the lookout for possible terrorist financing.

"We find a regulator that was slow to act, even after the September eleventh terrorist attacks inside our borders made the threat posed by terror funding networks all too clear," said Kelly, who heads the subcommittee on oversight and investigations, which held Wednesday's hearing.
http://www.tdn.com/articles/2004/06/03/biz/news03.txt


seemslikeadream

The Saudi Connection

That's too bad, because, a few months ago, Saudi Arabia was referred to as "the epicenter of terror financing" by a former Treasury official in congressional hearings. Even the Saudi government's English-language weekly, Ain-al-Yaqeen, bragged that the royal family and the Saudi Kingdom have spent more than $70 billion over the last twenty years "to spread Islam to every corner of the earth." However, what they spread, is Wahabbism, the Saudi version of Islam, which, according to former CIA Director R. James Woolsey, "is the soil in which anti-Western and anti-American terrorism grows." Wahhabist clerics virulent calls against all infidels now provide the legitimacy to murder non-Muslims who work in Saudi Arabia (as we saw happen this past weekend) and may ultimately bring down the House of Saud, which allowed the incitement to go on for decades.

According to a report submitted to the president of the U.N. Security Council in December 2002, "One must question the real ability and willingness of the Kingdom to exercise any control over the use of religious money in, and outside, the country."

However, the U.S. administration and the Saudi government assure us that the Saudis are our allies in the war on terror, even while we learn that the Saudi National Guard facilitated al Qaeda's attack last May on a housing compound in Riyadh that killed 35 people and injured 200; or that the Saudi embassy in Washington, D.C., transferred tens of millions of dollars that are suspected to have gone to terrorists through Riggs Bank.

Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud al Faisal recently denied publicly the Kingdom's contributions to Hamas. The prince may be hard-pressed then to explain the tens of millions of dollars raised and provided by Saudi Interior Minister Prince Naif to families of Hamas suicide bombers, and additional tens of millions of dollars that Saudi charities such as WAMY and the IIRO sent to Hamas's fronts in the West Bank and Gaza.

more
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/ehrenfeld200406010834.asp


Snazzy
Executive At Riggs Was Bank's Examiner
Vice President's Conduct As Regulator Under Examination
By Kathleen Day and Terence O'Hara
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, June 4, 2004; Page E01


The federal bank examiner responsible for overseeing Riggs Bank during the years it repeatedly violated anti-money-laundering rules joined Riggs as a vice president just weeks after he left the government in 2002, regulators acknowledged yesterday.


Comptroller of the Currency John D. Hawke Jr., whose agency is one of the two main regulators of U.S. banks, has known for several weeks that R. Ashley Lee, the "examiner in charge" of Riggs from 1998 to 2002, went to work for the bank after leaving the agency, said Robert M. Garsson Jr., a spokesman for Hawke.

In response to questions yesterday, Hawke's office said he is investigating Lee's conduct to determine whether "inappropriate influence" by the bank delayed regulatory action against Riggs while Lee worked for the government. Neither Hawke nor his aides mentioned Lee or the internal investigation during two congressional hearings this week into Riggs, which last month was fined a record $25 million for failing to report suspicious transactions -- particularly those connected to embassy accounts for Saudi Arabia and Equatorial Guinea.

"We don't know whether Lee's employment at the bank had any bearing on the problems we've discovered," said Garsson. "In hindsight we believe that we should have brought this relationship to the attention to Congress, and we regret that we did not."

....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14012-2004Jun3.html


seemslikeadream
NOT just distractions!
Hi Snazzy

I'm so desperate for Riggs news, here's some thoughts from "Luke"


by Luke

For instance, the World Bank says they oppose this war, and some of their employees from abroad even marched against it. World Bank bosses, however, wanjt in on the rebuilding contracts and the future of Iraq even if they don't wanjt to particip
This split, if we can drive a big enough wedge, could leasd to the formation of two trading and military blocs: One dominated by the US, Citibank, Riggs, etc and another dominated by Europe, the UN, and the global financial institutions. Every Third World nation would then be able to bid then against one another for a better deal and treat each as a counterweight to the other.

If we can DIVIDE the ruling class, we can later CONQUER it. If we let them divide US, than it is WE who will be conquered!

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:6E9OewZXNd8J:dc.indymedia.org/new...


Snazzy

It's amazing

maybe (ok, I'm pretty jaded and cynical by now) that this is still flying under the radar. At least it's a big biz story in DC and WaPo is on it everyday. Not sexy enough for cspan somehow.

You have a national landmark of a bank dissolving due to money laundering for African oil bribes on the one hand, and funding several aspects of 9/11 on the other. One Bush owns a division. Another (Jeb) probably enabled the money laundering in Florida. Another bank is going down from that (BAC, which links to Nicaragua, Bush/CIA stomping grounds). CEO is a Bush Pioneer.

That last WaPo story is great--the usual fox guarding the henhouse: former regulator joins bank. FED knew about problems since '97 but didn't act until '03, and a wrist slap so far.

This is the heart of the beast. This is follow the money.

You know Halliburton and all the bribery for oil stuff is just one investigative reporter away from jumping into this money laundering gumbo. Too bad we don't have one.




Snazzy ( Leap off here for some massive revelations--SEC filings


like this:
Embassy Banking/International Private Banking Relationships

Extensive and frequent suspicious cash, monetary instrument, and wire activity at Riggs occurred within the accounts held by the government of a foreign country, politically exposed persons of that country, and the companies owned by such persons, where very little monitoring of activity was performed by the bank. Within this relationship, there were a number of transactions that exhibited classic indicators of suspicious activity, or at a minimum lacked any reasonable business or economic purpose, but were never identified and reported. These transactions included:

• aggregate cash withdrawals from the accounts of the government, politically exposed persons, and government employees that totaled tens of million of dollars over a 2-year period, the majority of which were conducted through PUPID transactions;

• dozens of sequentially numbered international drafts drawn from a politically exposed person’s account on 3 dates over a 2-month period, totaling millions of dollars, and made payable to the account holder, which were returned to Riggs for crediting back to the account; and

• dozens of sequentially numbered cashier’s checks purchased from the same above-listed account on 3 different dates over a period of six months, totaling tens of millions of dollars, and made payable to the account holder, half of which were returned to Riggs for deposit back into the account.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/350847/000095013304002061/w9754...

http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?action=getcompany&CIK=00003508...




Snazzy
that sounds like it's about Princess Bandar not EG n/t




The midsize Washington bank with a nearly a franchise on business with the capital's diplomatic community was accused of failing to report to the government suspicious transactions in accounts controlled by diplomats from Saudi Arabia and officials of Equatorial Guinea. The FBI and Treasury regulators have investigated the Saudi transactions — which included cash withdrawals of as much as $1 million — for connections to terrorism financing.
http://washingtontimes.com/business/20040603-102828-1533r.htm


seemslikeadream


By TIMOTHY L. O'BRIEN
Published: June 4, 2004

Doug Mills/The New York Times
Senator Richard C. Shelby questioned effectiveness of regulators.


"I don't get a sense of urgency in dealing with this matter," Mr. Sarbanes said, adding that recent compliance problems at banks like the Riggs National Corporation "could well go to some basic issue of our nation's security."

Federal investigators are examining whether Saudi Arabian and Equatorial Guinean accounts at Riggs were used for money laundering or financing terrorist activities. The Comptroller of the Currency recently fined Riggs $25 million for a series of compliance problems involving those accounts. No criminal charges have been filed against the bank.

John D. Hawke Jr., who regulates national banks as comptroller, conceded that his agency was aware of compliance problems at Riggs as early as 1997 but did not begin serious action against the bank until last year. While defending the abilities and dedication of his examiners, he said his agency waited too long to crack down on abuses at Riggs and described the situation at the bank as "deeply troubling."

Senator Shelby questioned Mr. Hawke about possible problems with Riggs accounts from other countries, including Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Nigeria, Sudan and Syria. Mr. Hawke replied that all of Riggs's accounts are under review.

Riggs was not the only bank identified. Senators raised doubts about how well the Federal Reserve has monitored Swiss banking giant UBS. The Fed, in a joint action with Swiss regulators, fined UBS $100 million last month for violating dollar trading restrictions with Cuba, Iran, Libya and the former Yugoslavia. The illicit trading, involving about $4 billion to $5 billion, went on for eight years undetected by Fed examiners who audited UBS's activities in Zurich.
The Fed has said that UBS employees lied to their superiors and to Fed examiners about their trading, making detection difficult. UBS, which cooperated with the investigation, has not been charged with any crimes.

more
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/04/business/04bank.html?ex=1087012800&e...


Snazzy

Senate Banking Chairman Seeking Details on Former Federal Examiner ....

Senate Banking Chairman Seeking Details on Former Federal Examiner Who Went to Work at Riggs

By Marcy Gordon The Associated Press

Published: Jun 4, 2004

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Senate Banking Committee chairman is asking for details about the federal examiner who oversaw Riggs Bank during a period of deficiency and later became a Riggs vice president.

R. Ashley Lee was the lead examiner for Riggs in the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, a Treasury Department agency, from 1998 until he retired in October 2002 and went to work for the bank two weeks later, officials said, confirming a report in Friday's Washington Post.

Panel chairman Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., and Rep. Sue Kelly, R-N.Y., who heads a House oversight committee, were not told of the examiner's status when they questioned Comptroller of the Currency John Hawke and an aide about Riggs in separate hearings this week.

Shelby plans to send Hawke a letter asking for information related to Lee, said his spokesman, Andrew Gray. "We were not aware of this, and he (Shelby) felt that it's something that should have been brought up," he said.

....

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBOSBBU2VD.html


Tough Capital Insider to Face His Critics on Bank Regulation - RIGGS

Linda Spillers for The New York Times
John D. Hawke Jr., the comptroller of the currency, making a point in his office last week. His tenure is to be examined today and tomorrow by Congressional panels.

By TIMOTHY L. O'BRIEN

Published: June 2, 2004


tiny wooden canary in the Washington office of John D. Hawke Jr. serves as a reminder of the proverbial canary in a coal mine, doomed to perish as a warning sign of pending danger.

Mr. Hawke, the comptroller of the currency and one of the country's most powerful regulators, is responsible for gauging the financial well-being of national banks. To make sure that his agency was looking for signs of trouble, he ordered an overhaul of his agency's early-warning systems and called it Project Canary.


But as he approaches the end of his six-year tenure as comptroller, those efforts are under scrutiny. Mr. Hawke and his agency have drawn withering criticism on Capitol Hill for failing to fix longstanding compliance problems at the Riggs National Corporation. Riggs, a Washington-based banking company that has long been a favorite of diplomats and government officials, is caught up in sprawling federal investigations of suspected money laundering and terrorist financing through its accounts.

Mr. Hawke also tangled with state regulators when he issued guidelines in February saying that his agency has the upper hand in enforcing lending laws. The action put him on a collision course with state officials including the New York attorney general, Eliot Spitzer, who say that the comptroller's guidelines favor banks and weaken consumer protection.

more
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/02/business/02hawke.html?ex=1086840000&...


Snazzy

Was just working up to my daily Riggs Google
So, he's the good guy. Right.

Seems to me the left hand/right hand confusion was replete. Plus the minor point that they apparently get busted for money laundering, and then, whoas-me, have to sell the bank, gaining some 25% in value so far.

Need to find out where the EG and Saudi money went after Riggs. I also note that there has been little press on the BAC Florida finger shaking, which was clearly deeply related.

I was digging this here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...

NYT: "Law enforcement officials have not accused the bank of criminal wrongdoing, but a former Riggs executive is the subject of a grand jury investigation."



Snazzy
WaPo is still on it too
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7959-2004Jun1.html

Regulators to Say Monitoring Of Riggs Wasn't Satisfactory

By Kathleen Day
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, June 2, 2004; Page E01

Comptroller of the Currency John D. Hawke Jr. and another top regulator at the agency will tell Congress they failed to move quickly enough to fix years-long money-laundering violations at Riggs Bank, sources familiar with the testimony said yesterday.

Hawke's plan to say his agency stumbled on the job -- a failure that let regulatory lapses at the bank continue for several years -- comes as House and Senate committees prepare for hearings today and tomorrow on anti-money-laundering efforts.

Two weeks ago, in advance of the hearings and in the wake of sharp criticism of bank regulators by lawmakers at similar hearings last month, Hawke launched an internal top-to-bottom review of his agency's oversight of Riggs, going back to 1997.

"I want your full and frank assessment as to whether our examination team took appropriate and timely actions," Hawke said in a memo ordering the review. "You should also seek to determine whether there were any inappropriate influences that may have affected our supervisory activities in this case."

seemslikeadream

executive secretary at main branch of Riggs Bank dies

Mrs. Karpman retired in 1985 after working as executive secretary for several years at the main branch of Riggs Bank in Washington. Earlier, she had been an executive secretary at Graham, Van Leer & Elmore, a Washington construction firm, and for Formica, in Silver Spring.

She was born in Brooklyn, N.Y., and moved with her family to Laurel in 1950. After retiring in 1985, she lived in Florida for 13 years before returning to Laurel.

In Laurel, she had been a Girl Scout leader and was a member of the women's auxiliary of the Moose lodge.

Her husband of 28 years, Julius "Jay" Karpman, died in 1966.

Her marriage to Sol Brunner ended in divorce.

Survivors include two children from her first marriage, Donniel B. Karpman and Ethelynne "Ettie" Karpman, both of Laurel; a sister; two grandsons; and five great-grandchildren.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5153-2004May31.html


Riggs sale would end era for bank to presidents


But analysts said Riggs failed to adapt to the post-Sept. 11, 2001 era for banks, when special considerations for foreign customers came under heightened scrutiny from regulators concerned with tracing flows of funds that could be used to finance attacks on the United States.

"The good old boy relationships with foreign embassies -- that day had passed. They just weren't quick enough to realize the world had changed," a former banking official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

A Riggs spokesman could not be reached for comment.

Regulators say the bank improperly handled accounts with several foreign governments, including Saudi Arabia and Equatorial Guinea.

Regulators charged Riggs with failing to report tens of millions of dollars in withdrawals from accounts related to the Saudi Arabian embassy, and additional large sums withdrawn from Equatorial Guinea accounts and deposited into private accounts. Riggs did not admit or deny any wrongdoing.

more
http://www.reuters.com/financeNewsArticle.jhtml?type=bondsNews&storyID...

UpInArms
Riggs (Bank) Seeks Buyer After Government Fine, Executive Departures

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a1mowiaKgTZk&ref...

May 28 (Bloomberg) -- Riggs National Corp. in the past month has paid a $25 million government fine, lost three executives and been labeled a ``troubled'' bank by regulators.

Now Washington, D.C.-based Riggs, with customers including the Saudi Arabian embassy, is for sale, people familiar with the matter said late yesterday.

Riggs, with a market value of $543 million, hired Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. to help sell the company, the people said on the condition they not be named. The bank, accused by regulators of failing to enforce anti- money laundering rules, is contacting potential buyers such as Citigroup Inc. and Wachovia Corp., the people said.

A buyer would get a bank with 28 branches in Washington, 13 in Virginia and nine in Maryland, as well as offices in London, Berlin and Nassau in the Bahamas.

<snip>

Federal investigators concluded that Riggs failed to report suspicious transactions to banking authorities, the U.S. Office of the Comptroller of the Currency said earlier in the month. Riggs neither admitted nor denied wrongdoing.

...more...

http://www.riggsbank.com/Discover_Riggs/may31_00.html

Dudley Elected Chairman of Riggs Investment Management Subsidiary; Bush to Serve as President & CEO

Washington, D.C., May 31, 2000 - Riggs Bank N.A. today announced that the Board of Directors of RIMCO, a wholly owned investment management subsidiary, has elected Jonathan J. Bush President & Chief Executive Officer and a Director, replacing Philip Tasho who resigned. In addition, Henry A. Dudley, Jr. was elected Chairman.

Mr. Bush will continue as Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of J. Bush & Co., an investment management company he founded in 1970, which Riggs acquired in 1997. Mr. Dudley, a 24-year veteran of Riggs, will continue to be responsible for all of Riggs Bank's investment management, trust and private banking business.

Located in the nation's capital, Riggs Bank has 53 branches in the Washington, DC metropolitan area, as well as banking offices in Miami, London and Berlin.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58805-2004May26.html

A Shift in Strategy for Riggs

excerpt:

And, though Jonathan Bush briefly ran Riggs's investment advisory business during a management shakeup at the division in 2000, for the most part he has run his company as a distinct, wholly owned subsidiary of the bank, responsible for generating his own business and having limited interactions with select Riggs clients, Hendrix said.

"Jonathan Bush is very active, a very active manager," Hendrix said. He would not comment on details of Bush's business, but sources familiar with the company say J. Bush & Co. employs eight people and has about $200 million in assets under management. When Riggs acquired the company it had approximately $250 million under management. Riggs manages client assets of more than $6 billion, including trust accounts.

Jonathan Bush declined to comment.

UIA


WaPo: A Shift in Strategy for Riggs (Riggs Bank, J. Bush)

A Shift in Strategy for Riggs
Bank Struggles to Find Focus for Investment Advisory Business
By Terence O'Hara and Kathleen Day
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, May 27, 2004; Page E01


Riggs Bank's slogan for much of the past 20 years -- "The most important bank in the most important city in the world" -- was intended to distinguish Riggs from the common run of banking.

This upper-crust vision of Riggs, cultivated by former chairman Joe L. Allbritton to attract Washington's unique class of moneyed demi-celebrities, guided many of the bank's strategic moves under his tenure.

One of these moves was the 1997 purchase of J. Bush & Co., a Connecticut money-management firm founded, owned and run by Jonathan J. Bush, the former president's brother and the current president's uncle, for an estimated $5.5 million.

...

Sources with knowledge of the matter, but who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said that despite Bush family business and social ties to Saudi royals, Jonathan Bush had very little involvement in Riggs's banking relationship to the Saudi royal family. However, more than a year ago he did give some investment advice to a Saudi client connected to the embassy, the sources said.


....

More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58805-2004May26.html

(some more trickle about the new BCCI)


eridani
First class service for shitstains from around the world
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Pinochet_on_trial/Story/0,2763,409367,00.htm...

The Chilean army and secret police have spent almost two decades secretly flooding Europe and the US with massive shipments of cocaine. The trafficking began during the 17-year dictatorship of General Augusto Pinochet and continues to this day, a year-long investigation for The Observer has established.

Pinochet, who is now fighting arrest on kidnapping and murder charges in Santiago, has not clarified how he and his wife, Lucia, had $1,169,308 (around £730,000) in their account in the Riggs Bank in Washington on 1 March 1997. As commander-in-chief of the Chilean army, his annual salary in March 1997 was $16,000 (£10,000).


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-oil22may22,1,88675...

Marathon Oil Corp. and ExxonMobil Corp. confirmed that company officials had met with Senate investigators, but would not provide details. Both firms said their dealings in Equatorial Guinea had been
proper and lawful.

Interest in the land deals grew out of a money-laundering inquiry involving accounts held by Equatorial Guinea at Riggs Bank in Washington. The biggest account contained hundreds of millions of dollars in oil revenues deposited by American oil companies operating in the country.

http://www.davidsirota.com /


PRESIDENT BUSH'S UNCLE IS A CHIEF EXECUTIVE AT RIGGS BANK
According to the nonprofit Texans for Public Justice, Jonathan Bush is the President and CEO of Riggs Investment Management - a major arm of Riggs Bank. He is also the uncle of President George W. Bush. The President "credits the investors sent his way by this banker uncle as a key to his 'success' in the Texas oil industry in the early '80s." According to Public Citizen, the uncle Jonathan was a Bush Pioneer, having raised more than $100,000 for his nephew in 2000.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/8670766.htm

Riggs Bank has been fined $25 million by the Treasury Department for failing to detect and report tens of millions of dollars in suspicious transactions by foreign governments, particularly Saudi Arabia and Equatorial Guinea.

On Friday, the Federal Reserve ordered Riggs' Miami operation, Riggs International Banking Corp., to hire an outside consultant to conduct a thorough review of the bank's transactions and money-laundering controls.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4661093


Among the payments that have drawn scrutiny, documents show, were $19,200 in checks between December 2000 and January 2003 from the Saudi Embassy to an Islamic cleric, Gulshair Muhammad al-Shukrijumah. The Florida-based imam has been on the FBI's radar screen for some time: he once testified on behalf of convicted terrorist Clement Hampton-El.

Man held as a material witness in 9/11 probe deported to Yemen


By Kelly Thornton
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
May 26, 2004

Mohdar Abdullah, a former San Diego State student and material witness in the 9/11 terror investigation, was quietly deported to Yemen on Friday after spending almost three years in New York and San Diego County jails.

Abdullah and his friend and former cellmate, Omar Bakarbashat, were among the first Muslim immigrants in the nation to be detained after Sept. 11, 2001, and are two of the last to be released. Bakarbashat was deported to Yemen on Oct. 24.

"After lengthy negotiations, the government of Yemen issued a travel document for Abdullah and we were able to remove him back to that country," said Lauren Mack, spokeswoman for the Immigration and Customs Enforcement division of the Homeland Security Department.

"He had been initially identified as a close associate of two of the deceased hijackers from San Diego, Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid al-Midhar," Mack said.

much more at:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20040526-9999-7m26deport.html

(NB: Going to Yemen will probably not be a punishment, just a way-point in eventual return to Saudi. Recap: One of the guys the princess appeared to be funding (Bandar). Held till now on material witness, i.e. no charge. Quitely removed from the country. See a pattern? I only caught this story through following-up on Riggs Bank scandal).

Edit, add this

[Zan_of_Texas]

160. Hey Seems

Okay. We were having a conversation, and you just inserted what is like a book. Well, two of them. Except that there's no narrative included.

Plenty of research, but for the probably 100+ folks reading this, it would be helpful to state a main point you are making at the top, or at the top of each point.

I'm good at this stuff, but it's hard to follow. And, yes, believe me, I know this kind of crap is complex with many tentacles. That's why it's helpful to have cue cards for readers.

This much research should have something to make it more accessible - if a person only wants a snack, give them that, and hope they will come back and read the banquet later.

[Political_Junkie]

183. Wow, great research going on there

keep it up. This would make a great book.

[seemslikeadream]

207. Thanks so much Political_Junkie

I really appreciate your thoughts.

just posting the facts

:hi:

[Political_Junkie]

208. That's a lot to take in

all in one gulp, so to speak, but I'll get through it all eventually. Unless of course, I should just wait for the book? :)

[Occulus]

256. Good Lord!

Can you make it into a flowchart of some sort?

I agree- I think you have material for a few books there, if you're willing to do the research.

I only skimmed, mind. That's just way too much to read in full in one sitting! But thanks anyway; I'd bookmark this thread for that and that alone.

[seemslikeadream]

270. Thanks so much

Your acknowledgment means a lot to me. I've just been keeping track of Riggs Bank and Jon Bush, it's really all I have time for right now. I thought others might like to see what else the bushes are up to!

There's plenty of extremely intelligent people here who can figure out better than I what going on. All I can do is give the facts.

[TacticalPeek]

87. Kick night. n/t

:kick: :kick: :kick:

[Disturbed]

96. Treason

Getting back to the V. Plame outing. After thinking more about the reasons it just doesn't seem enough that two goons contacted 6 journalists with this story just to send a msg. to Joe Wilson and others not to contradict and embarass the WH. There must be more to it as has been stated in Pt. 1.

[RightDem]

97. Kick nt

[Occulus]

257. What fi Plame was

actively conducting an investigation into a recent, onoing, or imminent sale of such weapons as she was looking into?

Who can you think of that provided a possible reaction to such a scenario- and went and did it?

If those reports are right, and she was involved in such a sting, there's a possible, and most chilling, motive there.

[Pallas180]

288. kgfnally - Plame - "if those reports are right" - BINGO n/t

.

[Hippo_Tron]

98. Tell Bob Novak to give up the name or go to jail...

That will resolve this pretty quickly.

[flpeach]

101. But Hippo - Is That Possible?

I thought journalists never HAD to give up their sources, by law. If I'm wrong, please tell me.

Plus, he could just go to jail for a few weeks and then get out. He would be the right's martyr!

[Disturbed]

103. Names

There were two goons. I don't think that this can be swept aside. I believe that the Grand Hury will hand down indictements of those two goons.

[Hippo_Tron]

142. It's also against the law to blow a CIA agent's cover...

Or so I would think.

[Lars39]

109. Bad precedent to set; that would affect every journalist and sources.

It would truly be the death of what press we have left if sources cannot remain anonymous.

[hedda_foil]

115. kick for the morning crew.

[H2O Man]

116. A July 5th walk in the park with "Man X"

Again -- let's keep one issue in mind as we make this very significant progress in documenting the "how" -- and that is the "why?" .... "why?" means who profits by the conflict? In theory, who stands to gain from this from the far-right?

I'm going to give you another clue .... although many of you already know this as well as I .... but when we talk about the Nixon similarities, look at the Dr. Strangelove character .... the eerie guy who manipulates from behind the scenes .... the absolute creep who - remember the Darwinian "survival of the fittest" - believes they have the vision that makes them most appropriate to lead.

Okay, older folks, help me here .... talk about Henry Kissinger .... and see if there MAY BE comparisons to Paul Wolfowitz .... think about his 46-page memo covered in early 1992 by the New York Times.

The idea of putting a "new" intel agency, run by cheney & wolfowitz ... hmmmm, a war with CI/MI ..... Kissinger was not fazed by the "unfits" not surviving Watergate ......WHY? WHO STANDS TO GAIN?

[RainDog]

119. One clarification re: Watergate

According to Len Colodny and Robert Gettlin in "Silent Coup," Watergate, too, was not exactly what it seemed to be.

The JCS was spying on Kissinger because he was taking over foreign policy and leaving out the military from considerations that had to do with troops...such as the "Vietnamization" of that war, and opening diplomatic ties to China.

The Watergate leaks started when the guy who was spying on Kissinger for the JCS was polygraphed to see if he was the source for a press leak.

Hunt, etc. WERE NOT trying to break in to dem. headquarters for the reasons stated, according to the authors of Silent Coup.

A crew had already bugged a phone in an office at the headquarters which was there to catch dems in a prostititution sting.

Repubs had hoped to use earlier info on such activities, but as many repubs as dems were involved, so the info was of no bribery value.

John Dean was apparently aware of this prostitution sting because his wife was friends with the madame whose establishment was operating out of the side office, and he diverted attention from this situation.

In addition, Bob Woodward was a Lt. in the Navy under the command of the same people in the military who were bugging Nixon, was later given the WA. assignment as Daily Briefer to the same Admiral, and was also connected to Haig.

Woodward downplays these connections, for whatever reason.

...as far as your question about the "why" -- to me, it is clear that it is about absolute power corrupting absolutely, about money being power, and about the fact that those who are at the center of this corruption via money and power are always connected to George H.W. Bush and vice versa.

So, it is the richest of the rich, the same "Captains of Industry" who were gung ho for fascism when they could make a lot of money by arming Hitler, and who could be "patriotic" by opposing those commies and socialists and liberals who wanted to make sure that poor people and middle class people remained in their places.

[TacticalPeek]

136. Nixon/Bush personality/style and constitutional anomalies.

"Watergate". "Plame".

The evil these men do, and the danger when they pose it is boundless; the unknown unknowns. (Until later, which is why the tapes and docs required long pry bars to free them from King Dick, why aWol hides his daddy's papers, and his. And Clinton's)

Last night on Topic A with Tina Brown, they played the clip of Gov Shrub drooling over executions, ending with a big, fat smirk.

Tina Brown: So is his smirk a nervous mannerism, or do you have another reading of it?

Dr Justin Frank (author 'Bush on the Couch'): I think the smirk represents some unanalyzed, on his part, sadistic streak, which is that he has a pleasure in inflicting suffering on other people.

Secretive, sadistic creeps.


------------


Nixon and the Chiefs

In the last days of 1971 President Richard Nixon and his closest aides met to discuss the astonishing discovery that the Joint Chiefs of Staff had been spying on the White House. Transcripts of Nixon's secret tapes of these meetings, published here for the first time, offer a case study in Nixon's paranoid style of governing?and his surprisingly successful efforts to salvage advantage from misfortune

by James Rosen

At 6:09 on the evening of December 21, 1971, President Richard Nixon convened a tense and confidential meeting in the Oval Office with his three closest advisers-John N. Mitchell, his Attorney General; H. R. Haldeman, his chief of staff; and John D. Ehrlichman, his top domestic-policy aide. Notably absent was Henry Kissinger, Nixon's national-security adviser. The men had come together to discuss a crisis unique in American presidential history-"a federal offense of the highest order," as Nixon would put it in the meeting. Just days before, Yeoman Charles E. Radford, a young Navy stenographer who had been working with Kissinger and his staff, had confessed to a Department of Defense interrogator that for more than a year he had been passing thousands of top-secret Nixon-Kissinger documents to his superiors at the Pentagon. Radford had obtained the documents by systematically rifling through burn bags, interoffice envelopes, and even the briefcases of Kissinger and Kissinger's then-deputy, Brigadier General Alexander Haig. According to Radford, his supervisors-first Rear Admiral Rembrandt C. Robinson and then Rear Admiral Robert O. Welander-had routinely passed the ill-gotten documents to Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and sometimes to Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, the chief of naval operations. It was, in short, an unprecedented case of espionage that pitted the nation's top military commanders against their civilian commander in chief during wartime. Nixon and his advisers had gathered to consider how to react.

more
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/04/rosen.htm



And,


Moderator at 12:40pm ET

You recount how, as the Watergate crisis deepened, Henry Kissinger and Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger took some extraordinary precautions. What did they do?


Anthony Summers at 12:44pm ET

In the last weeks before the resignation, in the mid and late summer of 1974, Defense Secretary Schlesinger became increasingly concerned as he learned from various quarters of apparently aberrant behavior by the president. By that time, there was concern in various quarters. For example, a group of senators went so far as to call in a senior psychiatrist out of concern as to what the president might do during the continuing crisis.

The worries focused in part on concern that he might bring in troops ? either to seal off the Capitol or to seal of the White House. At any rate, there came a moment, a few weeks before the end, when Defense Secretary Schlesinger instructed the Joint Chiefs of Staff that they were not to follow any unusual order coming out of the White House unless it had also been approved by himself as secretary of defense and/or by Secretary of State Kissinger.

As we established, the military, naval and Air Force chiefs followed these instructions. Our understanding is that in the final days, the famous "black briefcase" that contains the nuclear launch codes for the president's use at a time of nuclear crisis was quietly put out of action, so far as Nixon was concerned.

more
http://www.abcnews.go.com/onair/GoodMorningAmerica/gma_chat_summers000828.html


-------------



Shrub will soon crack.

[Pallas180]

189. WOW. It looks like we have a repeat of sorts. Who knew- the

military saw Nixon, Haldeman, and Ehrlichman for what they were -
subverters of the Constitution.

there is hope yet for the preservation of what this country is supposed to be - through the military of all things!

[Edmond Dantes]

120. Still puzzling over it.

I assume you mean this paper:
http://americanassembler.com/timelines/iraq/docs/920308_nyt_one_superpower.html

Is this related to the recent emergence of what I can only refer to as "patriotic gas stations"? In the DC area, and en route to the MD and VA coasts, I have noticed several new gas station chains with names like "Spirit" and emblems like an eagle with red/white/blue background. Very disturbing.

Brings whole new meaning to Ashcroft singing "Let the Eagle Soar"... .

Ewan I.

Edited to add this link:
http://americanassembler.com/timelines/iraq/timeline_iraq.html

[kohodog]

127. What was Kissinger doing under Bush I?

We know the legacy of the Bush family. We know W promoted Cheney et al and they had influence in Bush I. Now they are the decision makers. Is there a link going back to Nixon? I don't know if that's important except that the individuals who stand to gain the most in terms of power, influence and money are probably still in the shadows. Perhaps w's overt actions threaten to expose the true powerbrokers and their methods. Either that or they no longer really care because they were confident it is too late to stop them and misjudged the situation.

I hope this doesn't sound too conspiritorial, because I really don't believe in a vast conspiracy. But I do believe this group will take what they can as long as they can. And if they can destroy the middle class they can rule with impunity still under the name of democracy.

[H2O Man]

129. The word "conspiracy" has emotional baggage....

Yet there is no such thing as "coincidence." There are patterns .... patterns of behaviors in individuals and in groups, as well as patterns in the small and large segments of history. So when we see a small group of oil executives, for example, behaving in a certain way, over and over, it's surely not a coincidence .... but it is a pattern.

Apply that to the power elite in big business & government. The make-up of the republican administrations, from Nixon to Ford to Reagan to Bush1 to bush2 .... have simiar patterns of individuals within the group behaving in the same way .... over and over.

The word "conspiracy" actually is accurate in the literal sense, going back to its Latin root "conspiratus," which means a group of people working towards a goal in a secretive fashion. The energy policy meeting held by vp cheney is -- by definition -- exactly that. The issue of it involving illegal means is not as important as the fact that the goal involves "self-benefit" ..... which of course is the base of Man X's question "Why?"

A relatively short and absolutely fun to read book that details the pattern of the connections of people & their behaviors is found in "Worse Than Watergate," by John Dean. It is required reading, in my opinion.

Also, regarding the reptilian Henry K: keep in mind that when it became clear there would be a 9-11 investigatory panel, dick cheney attempted to gain control by proposing Kissinger head it. The article in The Nation (12-23-02) called that "a sick, black-is-white, war-is-peace joke -- a cruel insult to the memory of those killed on 9-11."

Kissinger did not take the position, of course, because it required that he disclose his clients in his international consulting business. Dean quotes the Nation's article, which tied Kissinger to "state-sponsored terrorists," exactly the description of animal that was being investigated by Valeria Plame.

Do not underestimate the significance of that.

[RainDog]

176. Yet Kean, et al, cleared the Saudis

Even though Kissinger was not allowed to head the commission (not only did he not want to disclose his clients, but there was a significant outcry against him by 9-11 families and others),

Bush still has his guy..the one whose name starts with Z to keep the commission from asking too many uncomfortable questions.

And Kean is also someone who was in biz with the Saudis via Delta/Amareda Hess up until three weeks before his appt.

Delta is Saudi oil, and iirc, the guy who runs it is Khalid bin Mahfouz, who was also part of the "concern" that, with James Bath, purchased an 11% stake in Harken, (who is also related, by marriage, to OBL.)

The last decent bit of reportage I know of from Hitchens was his work detailing the reasons that Kissinger should be tried as a war criminal. Kissinger not only manipulated peace talks with the Vietnamese and thus caused the additional deaths of 20k plus Americans (not to mention untold Vietnamese), but Kissinger was also part of the powers that be behind the assassination of Gen. Rene Schneider, in Chile, which paved the way for Pinochet and his reign of terror and murder.

Yes, there are quite a few people in the power structure, and lots of them are Republicans, who should be tried as international terrorists and war criminals.

[Pallas180]

233. Both Kissinger and Colin Powell worked for Governor Nelson

Rockefeller prior to their federal government employment, and I read somewhere that that was where they met. Powell is referred to as a
Rockefeller Republican which at the time meant more liberal thinking -

Nelson Rockefeller had been in various capacities in Federal government since Eisenhower and before becoming Governor of New York
and Vice President under Gerald Ford.

Of course the Rockefellers are Standard Oil and Chase Manhattan Bank
among other major industries .

Googling Nelson Rockefeller , Kissinger, Powell would prove instructive.

It's amazing how the oil people have been involved in the highest levels of government almost from the discovery of oil.

[merh]

283. Enterprise seems an appropriate term thus, thus RICO offenses.

"A more expansive view holds that in order to be found guilty of violating the RICO statute, the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt: (1) that an enterprise existed; (2) that the enterprise affected interstate commerce; (3) that the defendant was associated with or employed by the enterprise; (4) that the defendant engaged in a pattern of racketeering activity; and (5) that the defendant conducted or participated in the conduct of the enterprise through that pattern of racketeering activity through the commission of at least two acts of racketeering activity as set forth in the indictment."

If Fitzpatrick was part of Rudolf W. Giuliani prosecution efforts in NY - Giuliani is regarded as an expert in prosecuting RICO cases. I think he actually assisted in writing the statute. RICO cases are somewhat easier to convict - the conspiracy issue is not as complicated, the burden of proof relative to the scheme is somewhat broader.

[Pallas180]

292. I thought of RICO too, especially regarding Cheney's Energy policy,

but two things are in the way: can a public official be subject to
RICO (did they get the eccentric Chicago congressman on RICO?) and
would anyone in this government have the guts to bring a RICO charge
against Cheney and Bush and company.

If it went through the DOJ, forget about it.

If it went to the DC Federal courts, or DC appellate district, forget about it.The Supremes the same. The House of Reps will never bring articles of impeachment.

a real problem. they've got all corners covered with their lackeys/appointees.

The only way appears to be through the CIA/Military, and they won't bother with any RICO.

MEHR, I believe it was Rudi who used RICO first and successfully, and then continued its use, mostly against the Mafia.

[Pallas180]

159. My original post. Halliburton is running the USA & its foreign policy

Halliburton=Cheney running the country, its foreign policy, ever expanding wars = munitions companies,industrial/military complex gains, Bechtel,G.E., CACI, Woolsey's security company, energy companies, re- construction companies,multi national companies who get contracts and pay no US taxes, and their like gain.

Who stands to gain? Everytime you see a name, contractor, connected to Iraq, google it and see who is on the Board of Directors or an officer of the company.

Through Cheney every industrial/munition/oil company. In congress when Cheney was there for a short term, he was known as the congressman who never saw a weapons system he didn't like. The military industrial complex gains through darth vader. As
well as Dimson family private fortunes: Junior, pappy, and Carlyle and all the major shareholders investors in Carlyle.

Sorry H20. I think you're way off on Wolfowitz and Perle. Politically
and financially who stands to gain? not them. Even Netanheyu turned down some of their crazy schemes before they got into higher position in US govt, is my understanding. Perle tried to broker communications contracts in Iraq where he would have gained financially but was caught publicly in conflict of interest.

The same group we have known for years and now in the WH are the ones
gaining - right up front. Carlyle's 175 companies. (read pappy and dimson) BTW did you know Carlyle even owns a large chunk of Nextel? an educational schoolbook publisher also? as well as the munitions companies. And tried to buy Viviendi TV and movies which owns the cable tv station USA ? They have long term plans in place to poison the minds of the American public starting with the children. "Give me your children before the age of 5 and they are mine for life"

In this administration there is no behind the scenes Kissinger. That is not to say Kissinger doesn't represent China, and many other countries he doesn't want us to know about, including his past association with Milosevic and the Yugo and representing Bechtel in foreign countries, and for sure he's getting a piece of the current
pie.

Amazing he's still walking and traveling around since he has been indicted in South America.

Who doesn't stand to gain? 99% of the American people and workers.

[H2O Man]

210. Great post.

I really enjoyed reading this. It's beneficial for all of us to have different points of view on here ..... I didn't mention Perle by name, and so I won't debate him or his actions. Wolfowitz ..... respectfully, I disagree ... I think that he is one of the most dangerous individuals in the administration. I believe that he is without conscience, and that he is one of the authors of the the policy that we are seeing today ..... I am convinced, for example, that he promotes the Halliburtonization of our federal government.

I will confess that I might be slightly less than objective. One of my interests before retiring was in dealing with sociopaths ..... an interesting part of forensic work at the mental health clinic I was employed at. There are some aspects of Wolfowitz, and Kissinger, that seem to reflect sociopathy ..... and these have to do with their relationship with "power".... although I'm certainly not trying to "diagnose" these gentlemen as such.

While I agree fully with you that Mr. Wolfowitz is not in the top running to benefit from the on-going confrontations this administration engages in, I believe that his motivations are found in terms of power. Time will tell. And until it does, I will enjoy the on-going give and take -- especially well thought out points of view like yours! Thank you again.

[TacticalPeek]

216. Wolfowitz likes to wear the enforcer's uniform, click his jackboot heels.

snip

In the days leading up to Baker's drop-the-debt tour, there was virtual consensus that the former US secretary of state had been sabotaged by deputy defense secretary Paul Wolfowitz, whose move to shut out "non-coalition" partners from reconstruction contracts in Iraq of $18.6bn seemed designed to make Baker look a hypocrite.

Only now it turns out that Wolfowitz may not have been undermining Baker, but rather acting as his enforcer. He showed up with a big stick to point out "the threat of economic exclusion from Iraq's potential $500bn reconstruction" just as Baker was about to speak softly.

snip

Those looking for ideology in the White House should consider this: for the men who rule our world, rules are for other people. The powerful feed ideology to the masses like fast food while they dine on that most rarefied delicacy: impunity.

more, plus Kissinger/Argentina
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1112129,00.html


-------------



Corps like Bechtel (Iraq), Halliburton (Iraq, Iran, Libya), and ABB (North Korea) made money over the last decade or so selling dual-use and WMD equipment to 'terror' states, perhaps with help from Rumsfeld, Baker, Kissinger, etc.

Seems like Plame and her crew would have kept tabs on things like Halliburton selling nuclear detonator equipment to Iraq and Libya. Kinda ironic that her network may have been tracking Bechtel, ABB, and Halliburton salesmen around the globe. Wonder if she ever had a "Rumsfeld, Donald" or "Cheney, Richard" file in her "bad actors" cabinet?

:evilgrin:

[H2O Man]

224. Yes. That's the Wolfowitz

that I see. Not to get carried away with the sociopath business, but one of the common characteristics is a reptilian essence. Many people have reactions when in a room with a sociopath much like prey near a reptilian predator. Maybe it's just me .... but Wolfowitz strikes me as more of a reptile than a human being.

[Pallas180]

235. From your link Tactical (and proving my point) :the Guardian

"The Kissinger transcript proves that the US gave money and political encouragement to the generals' murderous campaign. And yet, despite its now irrefutable complicity in Argentina's tragedy, the US has opposed all attempts to cancel the country's debt. And Argentina is hardly exceptional. The US has used its power in the International Monetary Fund and World Bank to block campaigns to cancel debts accumulated by apartheid South Africa, Marcos in the Philippines, Duvalier's brutal regime in Haiti and the dictatorship that sent Brazil's debt spiralling from $5.7bn in 1964 to $104bn in 1985.

The US position has been that wiping out debts would be a dangerous precedent (and rob Washington of the leverage it needs to push for investor-friendly economic reforms).

"So why is Bush so concerned that "the future of the Iraqi people should not be mortgaged to the enormous burden of debt"? Because it is taking money from "reconstruction", which could go to Halliburton, Bechtel, Exxon and Boeing"

AND

your and H20's suspected reason for the Valerie Plame shut down of course makes sense. Tied together with the sealing of records of Daddy
presidential records - who it is said gave a particularly sensitive piece of spy equipment to a foreign entity. It may have been bin laden
or Saddam - my recollection of which is foggy - but now it makes sense.

Could the former administrations- have also given WMD to foreign entities, who were about to or are about to return them ? ? ? ?

And would Valerie Plame have shortly come upon this information and it would be handed into her superiors who would then be in a position
to coerce the administration? ? ?

[calimary]

259. Whoa. MANY reasons they seem to have had to destroy Valerie Plame.

MAN this goes deep. Deep and dark and murky. FASCINATING stuff here, guys. My compliments. I feel like somebody's stuck an egg beater into my brain and revved it up.

[Tellurian]

265. Yes, I believe they questioned Mr. Wilson's allegiance/loyalty to the firm

They might have asked him or Valerie to do something against their scruples. When he declined, their loyalty became a question mark.

When he didn't contribute to BushII's campaign..His wife became a marked woman. All the firm needed was the right opportunity to present itself to complete the task. Knowing how these people think, I wouldn't be surprised if they planned to justify their reason for the preemptive strike on Iraq as predicated on the information supplied by Wilson's wife. To them, it didn't matter what her findings were. The plan was already in motion and they needed a name as the lynch pin for their excuse for bad CIA intelligence.

What ruined everything for Bushco was-- Ambassador Wilson's own preemptive strike, declaring the 16 words spoken by Bush in the SOTU address as good CIA intel, a Lie.. The firm retaliated by revealing Mrs. Wilson as a secret agent, formidably ending her career in an instant.

This petulant act of viciousness has become a Gran faux pas on the part of the firm. The retribution they intended was delivered with such swift vengeance, it was an oversight on their part that it was against federal law to reveal an operatives identity.

The real irony in all this would be, if the order to destroy and out Mrs. Wilson as a covert operative was given by BushI and that order trickled down several rungs to be executed by Rove and/or Libby... It was BushI that legislated the protection of operatives into the law that now may destroy La Maison du Bush.

[Pallas180]

273. the uncovering Plame was likely acted upon by Rove, student of Segretti

the dirty trickster from Bush 1's campaign who went to jail for
going too far.If you or I remember, and since I'm among the "elderly" H20 refers to here :D , Segretti sent out forged announcements on stationery that didn't belong to him.

Hmmm. Forgery. One of GOP dirty campaign tricksters stock in trade. Disinformation.

Let's hope that Rove emulates his mentor in every way.

[H2O Man]

274. The tribal elders

are refered to as "the Wisdom Keepers" among the Haudenosaunee, or Six Nations Iroquois confederacy. (The "traditional" extended-family people, not the gambling people that front another set of "family" values).

I agree with your choice of rove. And I admire nothing more in political discourse than the tongue-in-cheek understatement: your "Seretti sent out forged announcements on stationary that didn't belong to him" is fantastic! This group is no more moral than any gang of criminals infecting an urban neighborhood. They are just more deadly.

[Pallas180]

290. H20, I don't know whether to accept great compliment or hit

you up side of your head. <grin>

"The tribal elders" are refered to as "the Wisdom Keepers" among the Haudenosaunee, or Six Nations Iroquois confederacy.

While we are all open minded and learning from one another here, the shame is that we are not reaching those who have bought into the big lie - who are not reading these threads - who reject the idea that this administation is far different than any other -

For instance, I was talking to a woman last night, who insists the democrats have their version of David Bossie also and propaganda machines and dirty tricks. I asked her to name one dirty trickster and dirty trick by the dems; her answer was sputtering she couldn't, she doesn't know the names or the facts, but she's sure of it.

I asked why she was going to vote for dimson, again. Her answer: I
don't know why. He makes me feel good."

Odd. Because when I see him I have such emotions of revulsion,and dislike I rarely will watch him, and when I do listen I end up yelling epithets at the tv.

He makes her feel good. There's your 66% of non-thinking American public.

[iconoclastic cat]

125. Slightly off-topic: More about that pesky "why?"

H2O Man and all:

Perhaps I'm a bit lacking in my scientific knowledge, but all this talk about cold fusion and oil leads me to question the whole logic behind the actions of these various power players.

It seems as if we are saying that the heart of the issue is, "Who will control and profit from the energy resources on this planet?" We also seem to be in agreement that while Cheney and company want to be those people, the intelligence community is more visionary in their desire to keep the control and profit in American hands--but they want to choose who will be the cover agency for that control and power. Finally, all of this leads the readers and writers of this thread to conclude that the true prime movers of this country see Cheney and company as having gone off of the leash, threatening their whole sweet gig.

(I'm sorry that I am taking so long to get to the point, but I needed to reason out my next two questions regarding the logic behind this nice little manufactured reality.)

Taking the aforementioned situation as true, I have to ask:
1. Does it bother any of these shadowy gov't people that all of this power and profit lies outside the US border?

2. Wouldn't all of their territory,foreign agency, and control problems be solved if they engineered a switch to a hydrogen economy? I mean, come on, if you already control the media and all public policy, why not re-brainwash everyone to get on board and make a full conversion to hydrogen? Hell, think of how much more money they would make if they controlled that technology! (Which they surely could.) It would be much more plausible than cold fusion, right?

Are they just that short-sighted? Why wouldn't they want to make the switch and get off of oil, which they can't truly control, and get on hydrogen, which they could control into perpetuity?

Just wondering.

[never cry wolf]

128. Good questions

The simple answer is, of course, inertia. There is so much tied up in petroleum products now, it's not just vehicles but power plants, heating, heavy industry, etc. the cost to switch would be enormous.

Another answer is economics of greed. If it were technically feasible to create an endless energy source the accessibility (supply) goes up and prices go down. Compare that to a non-renewable product like oil where accessibility will be constantly be diminishing and demand constantly increasing. Plus, that allows them to control world trends easier. If you supply someone with orange juice daily for pennies your customer could take his business elsewhere, if you supply them with heroin, they are at your mercy.

[iconoclastic cat]

130. But what if you're the only one who can squeeze an orange?

And you keep it that way--wouldn't that be better?

[burrowowl]

157. Good analogy

However, technically, how close are we to fusion?
If we were that close, I sure the French would be building fusion reactors now.

[TacticalPeek]

131. They're covering the exits.

There is a tv commercial currently running, by some oil company, Chevron maybe, about "The oil will run out eventually. Shouldn't we be getting into alternate energy sources. Hey, we gotcha covered! We're doing that already, like hydrogen."


Feel the lube.


Hydrogen? Oil?

Hydrogen's Dirty Secret

President Bush promises that fuel-cell cars will be free of pollution. But if he has his way, the cars of tomorrow will run on hydrogen made from fossil fuels.

By Barry C. Lynn

May/June 2003 Issue


When President Bush unveiled his plans for a hydrogen-powered car in his State of the Union address in January, he proposed $1.2 billion in spending to develop a revolutionary automobile that will be "pollution-free." The new vehicle, he declared, will rely on "a simple chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen" to power a car "producing only water, not exhaust fumes." Within 20 years, the president vowed, fuel-cell cars will "make our air significantly cleaner, and our country much less dependent on foreign sources of oil."

By launching an ambitious program to develop what he calls the "Freedom Car," Bush seemed determined to realize the kind of future that hydrogen-car supporters have envisioned for years. Using existing technology, hydrogen can be easily and cleanly extracted from water. Electricity generated by solar panels and wind turbines is used to split the water's hydrogen atoms from its oxygen atoms. The hydrogen is then recombined with oxygen in fuel cells, where it releases electrons that drive an electric motor in a car. What Bush didn't reveal in his nationwide address, however, is that his administration has been working quietly to ensure that the system used to produce hydrogen will be as fossil fuel-dependent -- and potentially as dirty -- as the one that fuels today's SUVs. According to the administration's National Hydrogen Energy Roadmap, drafted last year in concert with the energy industry, up to 90 percent of all hydrogen will be refined from oil, natural gas, and other fossil fuels -- in a process using energy generated by burning oil, coal, and natural gas. The remaining 10 percent will be cracked from water using nuclear energy.

more
http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/2003/05/ma_375_01.html

[Tellurian]

180. Bush plans on extracting the hydrogen from water...

and the reason for the impending abandonment of Arabia and the rush to corner the market on H2O..

[Pallas180]

239. There's a fellow somewhere in the states, California? using salad oil

derived from vegetables to run his car - which he modified of course.

Odd that we haven't heard any more about that. Whether it is corn oil
or salad oil, that's plentiful.

Funny we don't see the auto mfrs snapping up his invention.

[Tellurian]

247. If you own a diesel, you can purchase a conversion kit ...

for a nominal price from a maker in W. Springfield, MA. The Do it yourself kit can be easily installed in a VW Rabbit or a Volvo in the trunk's wheel well.

And if you have the time, you could contract with a Asian restaurant to cart away all their used oil, strain it through a cheesecloth, and store it in a clean plastic container in your garage. Heck, they might even pay you to take the used oil away. If not, the worst you've done is gotten fuel to run your auto for FREE...

[RainDog]

184. the issue is global, not national

if you can park your money in the Caymen Islands, and pay people in India to do the work that you'd have to pay with a decent wage in the US...

if the entire world is a market and a labor pool to be exploited,

...then it doesn't matter where the resources are, except for the problems with extracting them because of pesky people who want to national resources, for instance, instead of selling them off to multinational corporations who can treat nations like a biz during a hostile takeover, or like a company they can buy, strip of its assets, and discard.

if you are already vested in one sort of product, you will maximize your profit in that area...and considering that oil is used for so much, beyond power, oil is still king.

hydrogen requires oil to work, btw.

simpler and more affordable and community-based energy makes the most sense, but that's not something corps can make lots of money off of, so that's not even on the table for discussion, is it?

as far as I see it, Rummy screwed up by trying to do war on the cheap, and basically lost the war with this planning before one boot had hit Iraqi soil. how long we will remain in Iraq, and how many people will die is still in question...but the war was lost long before now.

in addition, the knowledge, as Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski revealed, that the war planning was done with Israeli Generals having free access to the Pentagon, while people like Gen. Zinni were frozen out, no doubt makes MI a bit peeved...and on top of that, the CIA was shut out for the same reasons.

there are factions within the Bush administration as well. They each want their objective, and push to make their objective compatible with others who have power...as in oil, Likud, the Tali-born-again...

and there were factions who were shut out before the war who now look like they knew what they were talking about (unless you're part of the Bush junta), who are giving the economic elite in this nation and elsewhere an earful, no doubt.

[RainDog]

185. btw, look at the economic rape of Argentina as an example. n/t

n/t

[kohodog]

202. btw, look at the economic rape of the good ole USA

We are being reduced to third world status as our primary exports become food and natural resources. That's what third world societies export. The middle class is under seige and if this group has there way it will disappear. But why should they care, they'll be able to watch tv from their guarded villages!

[Pallas180]

278. Kohodog. exactly. my thought is that we'e been G-8'd just as

a third world country. raped of resources, jobs, and finances. placed
in deep debt to lower wages. WTO and G-8 bringing American standard of
living DOWN (to third world country as you say) instead of bringing the other countries' standards of living UP.

Convenient form of fiefdom/slavery for the corporate multi-nationals isn't it?

[never cry wolf]

134. On such and interesting thread, I hate to merely kick but.....n/t

[loudsue]

158. Weighing in here concerning the bush octopus....

Reading seemslikeadream's EXCEEDINGLY long (hint!) and riveting post above, one thing that stands out so GLARINGLY to me is this: The bush's are involved, publicly, as well as covertly everywhere that 9/11 connections lead. Where connections aren't public and blatant, they're easily found immediately below the surface... not well-hidden at all.

Then there is the following snip, from seemslikeadream's posted articles, that brings in the name of one of my all-time legal eagle heroes, and the man I HOPE TO GOD John Kerry would appoint as U.S. Atty. General: that person would be NY Atty. General, Eliot Spitzer.

Seems like everyone who has/had been appointed to investigate money laundering (see Sibel Edmonds) through Riggs Bank (Bush's uncle's bank -- connected to 9/11 funding of terrorists) on behalf of the government, is either appointed by a bush, involved in bush holdings, or quits as the government's bank auditor to join the (Riggs) bank they've been investigating!

Mr. Hawke is one of those, and Eliot Spitzer has now tangled with him. Right now, if I knew how to contact Eliot Spitzer, I would send him this thread via link.

"Mr. Hawke also tangled with state regulators when he issued guidelines in February saying that his agency has the upper hand in enforcing lending laws. The action put him on a collision course with state officials including the New York attorney general, Eliot Spitzer, who say that the comptroller's guidelines favor banks and weaken consumer protection."

Can it be even REMOTELY possible that congresscritters and prosecutors, who might be sympathetic to "our cause", have never had the opportunity to see what we've uncovered on these two threads?

When I first became REALLY active politically, after the Clinton impeachment attempts got under way, in my e-mailing around, I was ASTOUNDED to find out that most of our congresscritters get their info from the (uninforming) news media.

I would, however, send this thread to Henry Waxman and Eliot Spitzer in a heartbeat, if I knew how.

It is clear to me that part of the reason the Intelligence community is going after this administration (even though, I, too, think they'll stop short of chopping off the head of the dragon, in the end), is that they are SOOOOO transparent in their corruption.

So, either the take-over is so thoroughly complete that they don't have to worry about who knows, or everybody else is connected to it in some form or fashion (whether wittingly or not), that would suffice to blackmail any detractors.

The bush family evil empire is knee deep in every corrupt, inhumane government in the world... tangled in financially and politically: all across the African continent, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, .... they're even involved with the Russian mafia. It seems that wherever there is sleeze, the bush connections are there.

:kick::kick::kick::kick:

[never cry wolf]

162. Here ya go

Apparently for Waxman you have to live in his district to email but I am sure you can find a zip code in that district to punch in.

http://www.henrywaxman.house.gov/

Here's Spitzer's: http://www.oag.state.ny.us/contact.html

[loudsue]

164. Thanks, Steviet.....

I'll send them now.

Loudsue is running out of posting time.... about to leave for a week of vacation..... :hi:I'm getting married!!!:hi:... and then will have a bunch of "receptions" and parties :party: to come home to.

So the next 2 weeks I won't be around DU as much as I'd like. And this thread (and its predecessor) are just too good to let go of! <withdrawal sucks>

The "bomb" that H2O has been referring to in this thread will happen while I'm still out of town, on the 14th, but I'll try to wrestle a computer out of someone so I can check in on DU during that time. Mr.Loudsue-to-be is going to file for an annulment if he catches me on DU during the honeymoon.... but what can I say???

:bounce: :pals:Maybe I can keep him up all night :evilgrin: so he has to take a nap during the day!!:hi::toast::beer:

:kick::kick::kick::kick:

[never cry wolf]

171. My pleasure loudsue

So, you couldn't wait for ME, huh? Someone who would let ya log on to DU, hell, I'd log on with ya...

Just kidding, of course.

CONGRATS!! :toast:

I hope you have many happy and wonderful years together...

Oddly enough, I will be on vacay myself, to an island in Ontario with no phone and no electricity. Takes 30 mins to get to town for a paper but I'll be checking the transistor radio on the 14th.

Best of luck on ya!!

[loudsue]

181. (Blush) You're too sweet.....

:toast:Thanks for the Congrats, and the warm wishes. I'm pretty excited about it! :silly:

Have fun in Ontario...that sounds like a perfect place to hang out! No phone, no electricity....who needs 'em? Just so long as there's water nearby, what else could someone ask for?

I'm just glad I'll be around for the Kerry VP announcement tomorrow before I leave! Next, will be the bomb that may drop on the 14th. This is turning out to be a VERY busy month, eh?

:kick::kick::kick::kick:

[Rose Siding]

211. If you call Waxman's office...

and explain the subject, I'll bet they give you an e-mail addy to use.

[Pallas180]

221. Much happiness & congratulations Loudsue. Have a great wedding

and the best marriage (hope he's one of us)

[Political_Junkie]

190. Congratulations, loudsue,

we'll see if we can keep this thread going till you get back! :silly:

[loudsue]

197. Thanks, PJ....we'll be on thread #4 by the time I get back.....

But I will read every one of them!!! These threads have been awesome...no words can describe how proud I am of all these DUers!!

:yourock:

:kick::kick::kick::kick:

[Tellurian]

182. And for those who missed it...

what is happening, again, on the 14th?

Congrats, Loudsue...and have a happy!

:toast:

[loudsue]

186. On the 14th.....

As H2OMan has been saying in these two threads, he seems to have some very strong inclinations that the 14th of July MAY be the day that the Plame indictments are being handed down....or at least something going on that will implicate the bush administration in their complicity in the leak.

There have been some heavy-hitter journalists and investigative reporters who have been balancing on the edge of their chairs, knowing well that something BIG is about to rock D.C., politically. H2O_Man thinks that the 14th is the day the dam will burst.

And thanks, Tellurian, for the congrats! :loveya: Ain't love grand??? :loveya:

[Tellurian]

191. Thanks, Loudsue...

I thought that might be it... the 14th., I mean..

I hope it isn't a Bush surprise, like another attack, to diffuse
the impact of the Plame indictments.

quote for the day:

":loveya: IS never having to say, I can't login to DU." <hee!>

jus kidding!!!

have fun on the HM..LS

[mopaul]

200. woo woo! number 200!..................n/t

[shraby]

201. Probably this thread

should be locked and carried to another thread. I'm sure dial-ups will be having trouble by now. How about it mod?

[burrowowl]

204. Amen

It is getting long again.

[Crachet2004]

205. amen

[Political_Junkie]

206. I don't think

we have a moderator tonight, no one's listening. Does this mean we can misbehave? :evilgrin:

[Political_Junkie]

209. Love the new picture, mopaul.

Ain't it the truth?!

[iconoclastic cat]

223. I found something on the NYT site, just posted

I found something on the NYT site, just posted:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1927501

***
C.I.A. Held Back Iraqi Arms Data, U.S. Officials Say
By JAMES RISEN

ASHINGTON, July 5 — The Central Intelligence Agency was told by relatives of Iraqi scientists before the war that Baghdad's programs to develop unconventional weapons had been abandoned, but the C.I.A. failed to give that information to President Bush, even as he publicly warned of the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's illicit weapons, according to government officials.

The existence of a secret prewar C.I.A. operation to debrief relatives of Iraqi scientists — and the agency's failure to give their statements to the president and other policymakers — has been uncovered by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. The panel has been investigating the government's handling of prewar intelligence on Iraq's unconventional weapons and plans to release a wide-ranging report this week on the first phase of its inquiry. The report is expected to contain a scathing indictment of the C.I.A. and its leaders for failing to recognize that the evidence they had collected did not justify their assessment that Mr. Hussein had illicit weapons.
****
(more:)
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/06/politics/06INTE.html?hp

****

Is this how it starts? Or is this how it ends?

[H2O Man]

225. Wow. Thanks for posting that information!

Clearly there were problems in the CIA analysis before the war. The reason for the problems needs to be discussed openly. It looks like some pre-emptive attacks are starting up. This is going to be fascinating for us to watch.

[Tellurian]

236. I don't think it's anything new...

Bush sent fmr Ambassador Joe Wilson and his wife, Valerie Plame to Niger for confirmation of a yellow cake transfer to Hussein. Mrs Wilson denied the claim. Bush lied and restated Mrs Wilson's findings in the affirmative.

Mr. Tenet's claims have nothing to do with the Plame case..imo- and I doubt with all the evidence collected from other intel sources supported Tenet's claim. The decision for a preemptive War was ultimately Bush's to decide.

All the NYT has done is muddy the water with a preposterous claim, faulty CIA intelligence and George Tenet are responsible for the War in Iraq.

[Renew Deal]

237. Josh Marshall said that would happen.

He said that there would be some stuff out there to muddy the water. This is probably part of it.

[Tellurian]

238. What are your impressions of these not so new revelations?

I'm not acquainted with Josh Marshall..

Is he a journalist or an author?

[shraby]

246. Josh Marshall

<http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/>

Scroll down and you should find the entry about Plame.

[Tellurian]

250. Thanks, I just bumped into him from a link @ about #239/#240

Is Marshall a blogger?

Or does he have some kind of credentials?

[shraby]

261. He's a blogger or more, but

people who have been here longer than I have seem to think he's right on.
He's been doing some investigative work it appears by the entry about the Plame case.

[Tellurian]

263. Ah, thanks then.. I'll try to be more attentive..

I didn't read what he had to say about the Flame case..

I read his latest entries from, I believe July 3.

The interview with Biden. Sad, that...

[KoKo]

284. He writes for the "Nation Magazine" and for "The Hill" insider Washington

news about Congress. He also contributes articles to other well known magazines, most of them liberal.

He has a Ph.D in History but turned to journalism rather than writing history books.

He gets some very interesting info passed to him, as he says "Over the transom." That's an old expression reporters used to describe news that folks (like a Deep Throat) wanted them to get out but wanted to remain anonymous for one reason or the other. Lot's of us find him credible and he does get good scoops "over the transom."

[Pallas180]

242. Oh bulldoggy. This sounds like the DISINFORMATION people at work

in the Pentagon trying to pull Cheney, Wolfowitz, and dimson's chestnuts out of the fire.

The head of the Senate Select Intel Committee is Pat Roberts, if I'm not wrong, a devoted gopper.

This news was known long ago, when an Iraqui scientist showed on tv
the piece of a centrifuge for atomic use which he had hidden in his
garden for 12 years or thereabouts.

"Agency's failure to give ...to the president and other policymakers"
my ass, if you'll excuse my grossness.

Don't buy into Cheney's release from the OSP or whatever he calls it.

OUTRAGED.

blame it all on the CIA. dimson, wolfowitz, and cheney were definitely not salivating to go to war on Iraq from the day they captured the WH. The cat did it. (sarcasm off)

[burrowowl]

243. Ray McGovern

says in truthout article: Cheney Cat's Paw, Peter Goss, as CIA Director

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/070304A.shtml

Interesting is his flashback to Nixon times when Schlesinger replaced Helms and said he was there to protect Nixon's backend to paraphrase.
Goss is a party man.
Interesting article, except he had McCain as senator form NM, we have a bad enough time with Pete Dominici don't need no stinking McCain to boot.

[Zen]

253. Hey, don't Plame me if I don't give two shits unless King George II

is indicted. Until then - have a nice day!

[Pobeka]

255. How to deal with the denial of Bush believers?

First, I want to thank everyone for a great thread.

What has concerned me for the past few weeks, and I have begun to see/hear from conservatives, is they will not want to believe just how badly they were taken by the GOP -- hook, line and sinker.

This I believe is a psychological reality we have to understand, and solve quickly. It is no different than denying the truth when a doctor says you have a fatal disease, you lose a loved one, etc.

Many people who want to do right, and are sincere about their belief in the GOP are going to be presented with the reality that it was all a sham, and that the party they believe in is very, very corrupt.

Faux News will continue to use this to the GOP's advantage.

Are there any psychologists in the crowd with ideas how to handle the denial? I personally think we have to recapture the flag -- it has been drug into the corruption and we can be the ones to hold it high again. I also think we need to find the talking points that firmly build up the frames of reference that offer assurance and comfort to those in denial.

[Tellurian]

262. The Truth as we know it...has to come from within their own enclaves of

moderate Conservatives. Even then, the state of attainder by consensus rising to the level of critical mass from their Conservative base will need some sort of redeeming factors. Perhaps saving whats left of the Republican Party will suffice to fulfill their questionable Christian values. The real focus must now shift to the diabolical perpetrator of this chamber of horrors, Bush I... A woman will be his Waterloo. Some one who is highly respected, someone he dare not trifle with...

[H2O Man]

267. Good morning!

I love the smell of that first cup of coffee as I read through then new posts on this thread .... reminds me of victory!

We are in for one hell of a week. It was a good time for Kerry to name his vp. On MSNBC, Chris Matthews said that Edwards will "take cheney's knee-caps off" in a debate. Gotta like that image ! (I just heard someone on MSNBC -- I believe Joe Trippi -- say cheney won't be on the ticket in November. Sounds like what's been said here for the past few days!)

The senate report information is, as others noted, not "new" or unexpected. And the timing is not a surprise. But it adds to the sense of anticipation .... there's a storm on the horizen. It's the storm that many believe will take cheney off the ticket. The extent of the damage from the Plame grand jury is an "open secret." Many of you may recall that in his book, John Dean suggested that someone from the White House had been "turned" over Christmas vacation -- and that individual's personal attorney had approached the Justice Department to try to make a deal.

This week we will have an experience similar to sitting in the relative safety of our homes, watching a strangely beautiful but extremely violent storm.

[Pallas180]

275. H20 - your post 224 - would you kindly explain what you mean by this:

"Many people have reactions when in a room with a sociopath much like prey near a reptilian predator."

Do they become frozen? mesmerized? fearful? revulsed? what?

[H2O Man]

277. I'll try....

It's fair to say that our brain is a highly complex organ that has retained many of the "defense" mechanisms that we needed for survival in earlier times. We use far less of our brains on what our culture defines as a "conscious" level, of course, but those other parts of the brain are still at work, sending messages that our culture too often suppresses and ignores.

The best studies of sociopathy were done by Hare. I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to do some studying under one of his "students." And in the best books on sociopaths/psychopaths, one thing that Hare etc noted was that in hundreds of examples -- actually thousands -- people from all walks of life would be able to describe a number of the unconscious reflex symptoms (including those you list) when they were in close contact to a true socio/psychopath. Those feelings of anxiety manifest themselves in different ways with different individuals, of course.

I've said on a number of posts that I really enjoyed the forensic work I did at an area mental health clinic. This included some work at the local jail, both with individuals and groups. On those occassions when the co-workers and I encountered a sociopath, without fail, upon leaving the jail, the women would describe having the hair on the back of their necks rise when the fellow entered our "space." And, as the fellow conversed, their skin would crawl. These are not what happens in the cases of "mere" anti-social folks.

There are interesting studies on brain chemistry .... an area that should ALWAYS be approached with care ... but there are theories about the similarities in brain functioning in our reptilian brain stems, and that of the dragons of eden, so to speak.

I've often thought that it would be interesting to have someone familiar with interviewing this specialized group of humans (sociopaths in jail) do some interviews with "politicians" such as Wolfowitz. The president, while clearly not a sociopath, presents with another cluster of personality pathology that could be dissected in a fascinating way in an interview .....

[coeur_de_lion]

285. I think I may finally disagree with you, H2O

"The president, while clearly not a sociopath, presents with another cluster of personality pathology that could be dissected in a fascinating way in an interview ..... "

I think Bush IS a sociopath. Here are some of the classic traits of a sociopath:

1) Glibness/Superficial Charm
Use language to confuse and convince their audience.
2) Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors permissible.
3) Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." Craves adulation and attendance. Must be the center of attention with their own fantasies as the "spokesman for God," "enlightened," "leader of humankind," etc. Creates an us-versus-them mentality.
4) Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities.
5) Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
6) Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion, it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.
7) Incapacity for Love
While they talk about "God's love" they are unable to give or receive it.
8) Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge, yet testing the beliefs of their followers with bizarre rules, punishments and behaviors. Verbal outbursts are normal.
9) Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. Their skills are used to exploit, abuse and exert power. Since the follower cannot believe their leader would callously hurt them, they rationalize the behavior as necessary for their (or the group's) own "good" and deny the abuse.
10)Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.
11) Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others.
12) Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blame their followers or others outside their group.
13) Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future. Many groups claim as their goal world-domination or other utopian promises. Great contrast between the leader's opulent lifestyle and the followers' impoverishment.

I think all or most of these describe * pretty accurately, but if I'm wrong I sure would love to hear what you think his problem really is.

[Lone_Wolf]

294. Edwards/Cheney debate

Waterman,

Excellent thread!

I think we should be cautious repeating the meme (especially one that comes from Chris Matthews) that Edwards will destroy Cheney during their eventual debate. While this may be true, we might be raising peoples' (undecided's) expectations of Edwards to an artificially high level. If this happens, all Cheney will then have to do is hold his own in the debate to be declared the "winner."

We should keep in mind that Cheney is a ruthless bastard who has shown us that he can debate. He can also project a grandfatherly image that might not play well with viewers if Edwards is overly aggressive with him.

IMO, we should frame this so that Cheney and Edwards are about equally matched in a debate or even Cheney is the better debater of the two. Just my $0.02.

[myrna minx]

269. A kick and a nomination.

:kick:

[Pallas180]

272. Torn. Excited that its Edwards, but sorry news will take Plame indictments

off the front page.

Off our topic of Plame, I can wholeheartedly support the ticket now -
I was not enthralled with Kerry - but Edwards talks the talk and walks
the walk.

He would have been great as AG too. We have all those laws of the
fascisti to reverse and the restoration of civil liberties and the
Constitution. Whoever is chosen as AG is going to be critical.

This is a great ticket, but it doesn't change the danger that the
election is in through cancellation or theft.

We still have a big ways to go!

[Pallas180]

276. kicking up

:kick:

[H2O Man]

279. Democratic strategists are saying

that the Kerry campaign is looking for one week of "focus" on the Edwards choice. That sounds pretty accurate. And it takes us up unto July 14th!

On July 14th and beyond -- until cheney drops off the ticket in the first week of September -- we will have an extremely talented attorney, who is an artist in his ability to explain complicated legal issues to the jury. The republicans will have a criminal who is going to be tied DIRECTLY to one of the ugliest crimes in American political history.

While Edwards offers many, many strengths to our ticket, this may be the most valuable when the shit hits the fan next week. And it may be the perfect way to focus attention on the Plame issues. I love it.

[Ugnmoose]

291. I think both Cheney and Bush will hit the skids

While Cheney was the likely mastermind behind the outing, I think Chimpy will at least be shown to have known about it either before or after it happended. Either way I believe these boys are going down. I can't possibly see how the Party would want to carry two people with this kind of legal baggage. My speculation is that the Party will ask them both to resign rather than risk a total disaster in November. I do agree that it will present a real constitutional crisis (worse than Watergate).

[seemslikeadream]

281. Can anyone confirm this?

Mithras61 (1000+ posts) Tue Jul-06-04 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #11

22. I was under the impression that executive privilege only extends...


for 6 weeks after the advisor is no longer a sitting advisor. That means Tenet would be free to testify, under compulsion if necessary, after about the end of August. If my math is correct, that would put it right before the Repukelican Mational Convention. I wonder, do you suppose that has any impact on the timing of the resignation?

[Moderator]

295. Locking.....

Please continue here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1933148


I am locking this due to length. Let's give everyone
access to the thread.


DU Moderator :-)