Cia vs. Army: from a friend who remains nameless.

[HawkerHurricane]

I'm directing this to Joe even though I am broadcasting it as well, primarily because of the three or four right wing jingoistic comments that I have received (probably as bait) to the effect that the USA should just get out of the rest of the world, especially the United Nations. These comments come generally from hawks, who like to point out how we Americans like to see ourselves as the protectors of democracy.

I just listened to an interview with Stephen Kinzer on the radio. He has done research on the Coup de etat in Iran in 1953 by the CIA. He uses, of all things, the CIA's own documents, 80% uncensored that are now available due to the Freedom of information Act.

The bottom line is this. If the claims by the CIA itself are true in their own documentation, then the CIA has overthrown MORE legally and fairly, democratically elected governments in the last 50 years than the USA Army has toppled of dictatorships.

..... Quite a record actually, including Iran, Chile, Guatemala, and a few others. But also including some failed attempts in Cuba and one other which I forgot though he mentioned it on the radio. The point that Kinzer makes is that the stunning success in Iran was so impressive in Washington D.C., that it became the template for all the Coup de etats that the CIA has conducted since.

My point, on the other hand is that I despise negative talk about the United Nations and World court. Obviously, the USA can't police its own. I think that the CIA should be held accountable for crimes against humanity and crimes against the United States in that they seem to target democracies and favor dictatorships when they install new governments.

[SweetZombieJesus]

1. Chile was the most egregious example of this bullshit

I hope someone shanghais that fucker Kissinger someday and takes him to Chile to face war crimes prosecution.

[Postman]

2. Hawker, don't miss the point....

it's not a "rogue" CIA that is the problem. It's the policy of imperialist capitalism.

May I stear you in the direction of some great books and authors?....

A People's History of the United States - Howard Zinn
Declarations of Independence- Howard Zinn
Against Empire- Michael Parenti
Inventing Reality- Michael Parenti
Blackshirts & Reds- Michael Parenti
History As Mystery- Michael Parenti
Lies My Teacher Told Me- James Loewen

...Just a sample...I was a navy man also. Young and ignorant of the world at the time. Like many wayward youth, looking for "adventure", a skill, a career with a little bit of patriotism thrown in (nurtured by an education system that indoctrinates as opposed to actually teaching you how to think and analyze, particularly American history)....from prior threads I understand you are at the end of your naval career. Congratulations on surviving a strenuous 20 years on your family life. I could never have done it. Not in the navy. Too much family seperation for my liking.

[HawkerHurricane]

3. I've read the Howard Zinn

And as I continue to work on my history degree (just discovered I can declare a theatre minor and have most of my earlier credits count toward the Bachalors!) I learn more and more. Have you ever seen
"Lies my Teachers Told Me"? It's also about American history, and what is left out of school textbooks.

[Postman]

6. I don't quite understand the question...

You asked - "have you ever seen Lies My Teacher Told Me?".......I have read it if that's what you mean. I have my own personal copy. He (James Loewen) has also written a book (which I have) titled- Lies Across America...What historical monuments, sites etc., etc. get wrong. Pretty informative also....I can't stress enough, since you've disclosed that you're working towards a history degree, that you try and pick up some of Michael Parenti's works. Great reading, sort of a cross between Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky. Easy to read, yet not as "brainy" as Noam Chomsky.....

[HawkerHurricane]

11. I meant to ask if you had read it.

My error.

[leftofthedial]

4. In each case, CIA was ordered to do what they did

to further US policy

we have serious shame to live down.

[Ein]

5. I'm not sure how well it would work

But I would love to the CIA rebuilt from the ground up with heavy Congressional oversight.

And you're right, it sucks ass right now. My wiser friend told me it went to hell sometime in the Eisenhower administration.

[Postman]

7. Don't look now, but....

guess what? the CIA was created right after WW II from a prior secretive ops group known as the OSS (Office of Strategic Services). That was 1947. Ike took the presidency in 1952. Do the math. 5 years where the Agency was "honorable" ???...I'd say the purpose of the Agency was to be subversive from the start...To make the world safe for imperialist capitalism and to keep the western colonial empire intact.

[plurality]

8. it might have had something to do...

with all the former Nazis they smuggled in to help build it. Little know fact is that one of the spoils of WWII we divied up with the Russians were Nazi spies and SS guys.

[Postman]

9. Isn't it interesting how ....

the father of NASA (Werner Von Braun)was a nazi? I guess he must of "reformed" in order for him to work for Uncle Sam. Yeah, right.

[HawkerHurricane]

12. Tom Lehrer on Werner Von Braun

"Don't say that he's hypocritical
Say rather that he's apolitical
'Vunce de rockets go up,
Who cares where they come down,
Dat's not my department!'
Says Werner Von Braun"

[pansypoo53219]

10. wasn't done for democracy

just plain old greed and capitalism. what a wonderful country.