If and when indictments come down in the Plame case,

what then is the next step? What are the procedures?

against the liberals who brought these indictments to bear.

Indictments in the Plame case and Josh Marshall's expose re the original forged yellowcake papers that started this.

or do they come after ya with handcuffs?

Assuming indictments come down, the next steps should be arraignments and setting dates for preliminary hearings, defense motions, etc.

Don't expect trials to come down for a year or so.........

on edit: Maybe some DU legal-eagles can get more specific or correct any mistakes I made.

rather quickly!

or below. Just a guess. Naturally I hope otherwise.

Nov. 3rd 04 Bush* pardons all defendants in Plame case.

Nov. 4th 04. Citizens storm White House carrying pitchforks.

Secret Service fires RPG's into crowd killing and maiming thousands.

Military open fire upon Secret Service..

Experts believe mele' is Clinton's fault.

the works are not being discussed publicly for two reasons: first, and most obvious is that grand jury proceedings (including an investigatory g.j.) are secret; the second, and far more important, is because what is potentially going to occure will create a Constitutional crisis unlike anything that we have dealt with in our nation's history. Older folks who recall the Watergate years -- which absolutely pale in comparison -- know that our federal government, with its theoretic separation of powers, is indeed fragile. This is not a game. Our country's future hangs in the balance.

(*** What is happening IS being discussed in rooms where the real power lies ... very few elected officials are included at this level, and no media has access to these discussions.)

.

Is that true? BTW, if Bush and Cheney are implicated, that would certainly create a constitutional crisis.

I'm just curious whether your comment that indictments "are already in" is based on credible sources or educated speculation.

However, even if a person HAD "credible sources," they would have to say "educated speculation." But let's look closer at a couple of points of interest ..... a day or two ago, I posted some quotes from Joe Klein's "Plenty More to Swear About" in the July 5 TIME (pg 21). Klein, writing in a "mainstream" media, tells of CI and MI sources who privately inform him of the outrage these various and extremely powerful agencies feel towards this administration. For the first time that I am aware of, Klein informs the public that Plame "may have been active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components" when the White House revealed her identity. "Ony a very high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge that Plame was on the payroll" of the CIA, an intel source told Klein.

Do NOT underestimate the significance of this. Exposing the CI operative went way --WAY -- beyond "getting back" at her husband.
In 2000, we saw a very real constitutional crisis regarding the presidential election. The division of powers came into play. But listen: the presidency has become, in many, many ways, a mere "front" for the real powers. Do you live in a town or city? Well, the elected officials don't really run the town or city! They front!

Bush is NOT the leader. He's a clown -- it's as if Ronald McDonald was so confused that he thought he were real....and we KNOW that ONLY children believe that! The closest we have come to seeing the real powers was when cheney decided the nation's energy policy .... but the supreme court AGAIN violated the US Constituion by "legally" keeping public information private!

Now: if a clown like bush (or his clown friends) get "caught" breaking the law, and the court system is NOT IN A POSITION TO SAVE THEM, is that very real board of directors going to GIVE UP POWER? And fade away? No! This is FAR more serious than the children who laugh at Ronald McDonald believe, my friend. There are things going on right now that will alter the course our nation takes into the future. Believe it.

U.S. intelligence sources have also said that Fitzgerald's investigation has gone far beyond the mere leaking of Plame's name, itself a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, but has expanded to look into the exposure of Plame's colleagues who worked under the cover of a CIA firm called Brewster, Jennings & Associates. The "brass plate" CIA proprietary had offices in Boston and Washington, DC. Active since 1994, Brewster-Jennings was instrumental in tracking the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) and had agents or correspondents in a number of countries including Iraq, North Korea, Belarus, Russia, South Africa, Iran, Israel, China, Pakistan, Congo (Kinshasa), India, Taiwan, Libya, Syria, Serbia, and Malaysia. By releasing Valerie Plame’s name, other agents' non-official covers were blown and the lives of U.S. operatives within foreign governments and businesses may have been placed in danger. Therefore, Fitzgerald's investigation has reportedly been expanded to include the issue of whether members of the staffs of President Bush and Vice President Cheney, Cheney and Bush themselves, the National Security Council, and the Departments of Defense and State, may have violated more serious espionage laws.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/062504_grand_...

talking about "civilian control of the military" in this presidential campaign. It is starting as a response to comparisons between Kerry's record of military service vs bush's. Yet we can take it a step further: who is now "in charge" of the military? Are the generals determining US policy, or is Halliburton? That's a serious question.

Again, from Klein in TIME (7-5; pg 21): "Two other serious, surreptitious - and quite possibly unprecedented - battles are going on: the intelligence community is at war with the White House, and the uniformed military is at war with the civilian leadership of the Pentagon."

This is a strange time in American history.

community love this country as much as the most gungho GI. Its the mindset you have to take to do your job and to be effective. The cause is more important than the risk.

Now you add to that the fact that weedboy & his band of rethugs have blamed them for everything to 9/11 to the mess that Iraq is and you have some people that are not happy seeing the clown in chief get away with the crimes he has committed in office. Add to that the leaks and you have set a match to a slow, methodical fuse.
They are used to building their case in secret and in taking their time until they get it right.

Now add to that the fact that the "weed that would be king" ignored the Pentagon's advice regarding Iraq, that he has stretched the military thin, that outsourcing contracts have been awarded to cronies instead of putting the money in the military budgets, that they have to serve side by side with private mercenaries, and I would say you have some really pissed off folks.

You have some big powers mad as hell at weedboy and they are going to dot their "i's" and cross their "t's" but they are not going to sit back and let him the nation that they love. (IMHO)

This administration has crossed the wrong people. And now they're gonna have to pay their dues.

I have been waiting for some verifiable shred of hard evidence that there will actually be indictments of major players in Chimp's administration. I want to believe this-but it's like some who predict the end of the world. So far nothing.

If the puppet masters of Bush were only these PNAC freaks, then some indictments would probably end the show.

But if other groups are the really important ones (the usual suspects, CFR, Rockefeller etc.), then a victory of Kerry would mean only a better front man, only better marketing.

FTW already speculated in July 2003 (I think in Beyond Bush II) that Kerry would be the candidate -- longe before that was clear.

by James Hepburn (fictitious name) which was originally published in Europe in 1968, and became a best-seller in 11 languages. For many years, it was almost impossible to get in the USA, much like "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse" and a couple other books. But it was recently made available by Penmarin Books. It has chapters on politicians, businessmen, oilmen, and Texas. Of course, my main man Kong may believe it is bullshit and tin-foil ..... it's as paranoid as the late Senator Daniel P. Moynihan, a comment you will get if you read the book.

Add to this "American Dynasty," by Kevin Phillips (another foil-head!) and the events on the world stage come into sharper focus. Guess what else: many of the issues documented in these very serious books are now made available for mass-consumption by the unbelievably accurate movie by Michael Moore. And that, my friend, threatens to take the fuzz right off the peach!

There are people in CI and the various MI agencies that are 100% patriotic, who have dedicated their lives to an effort to promote the true American values of democracy. They and others are in a conflict with those forces outlined in Farewell America & American Dynasty. This is real.

our democracy is worth fighting for. it just was never meant to include everybody.

once the fascists lost in the Sixties with Civil Rights and Woman's Rights, they decided fuck the rules. the rules only applied when it was a gentleman's club.

we usually are in general agreement. And you are absolutely correct that "democracy" as such was intended to be a (white) gentlemen's club. Africans, Asians, Indians, and all women, were not included. "No Irish need apply" had more meaning than merely prejudice against Irishmen .... before the 1860s, Irish society recognized the equality (not exactness) of women, which was a terrible threat to the status quo.

Yet democracy is a living concept, and perhaps rather than seeing it as taking root in these "minorities," it is more accurate to say it finally began to take root in the closed minds of those white gentlemen.

We have a lot of work to do. This is a difficult struggle. But I'm confident that we will get there.

I encourage you all to go over there and look. Just reading a few pages brought back for me the feelings of loss when Kennedy was assassinated.

I've always considered myself a refugee of the sixties. There were people who had vision then. But they killed all of our leaders. I still feel the pain of that.

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell00.html

Quite a read. It was very poignant reading for me, as another child of the 60s.

These guys have a greater respect for our nation and what it stands for than weedboy and his cronies. They are patient, methodical and cunning. They are not just aiming for weedboy & f'u, they want others involved to try to prevent it from happening in the future. Need to set examples and put the fear of god in them. Also need to keep 'em busy defending themselves for 4 years -- 2004 is only one election cycle - they don't want to run the risk of this craziness happening again.

I will have a look at the book (thanks to hedda_foil who provided the link to a free version).

would be more pleasant background music but no substantive change.

Very unsettling!

I am all for what ever happens as long as the Bushco Clowns are out of office.

and the only thing for certain is that things will NOT remain the same. JFK once wrote that, "The soft, the complacent, the self-satisfied societies will be swept away with the debris of history." We need to look very seriously at the reality of our present situation. Never take democracy for granted. Never be stupid enough to ignore the fact that there are forces -- primarily economic -- that are not supportive of the democratic process.

When people talk about "revolution" and the like, I always say BE CAREFUL! Or when people talk about militias, and things such as that. No, if these people knew what war was, they wouldn't talk that way. Those things wouldn't come out of their mouths.

Instead, believe that democracy is the best weapon we have. The right to vote. The Constitution, the Bill of Rights. These are the weapons we should be using. And I recognize most people on here know that.

I'm a firm believer in democracy. The democratic party is indeed imperfect, but it represents the best choice we have.

where have you been all my life?? Well at least the 3 years I've been on DU. Your writing and knowledge is absolutely brilliant. I was so engrossed in your responses as to feel I was in some mystery novel. You are definitely one to watch. Thank you for your input here.

I know it may be a "dead" issue and sometimes I wonder myself - but in light of these indictments - I wonder if any truth of 9/11 will catch up with them too. There's got to be plenty of CIA with the goods on them for that too. Many activists are making a true dent with the truth that not only did this administration have foreknowledge but were in on the planning - they have been passing out flyers literally by the thousands at showings of F9/11 - they are not out of the woods on this one at all. God how I pray for the day.......

I appreciate your kind words. I've been on DU for about 7 months, and although I have over 1,000 posts, I find it rare that anyone responds to much of anything that I write. And when they do, it tends to be even rarer that anyone agrees with me! (grin)

A friend once told me a story, in which an airplane represented ourselves as human beings ..... however, I am confident that it can also represent "democracy" ..... There once was a primitive community that happened upon an airplane. Some became anxious, simply because it was something "new," and so they backed away in fear. A few others saw the seats, and made themselves comfortable, using it for lawn chairs. But then a couple of the more insightful recognized the motor's potential, and used it as a car. And a very few saw what the majority did not -- that this machine could fly!

And that, my good new friend, is where a few of us are at today! We know this machine has potential. It is not to be feared, nor to be lounged upon. It has not only the power to move: we can fly this machine! That's where I am, and I suspect it's where you are, too! Peace.

and agreed with, though.

I am kinda new, and the pace is sometimes, well, the smell of burning rubbers always reminds me of victory.

In years past, I would at times feel a sense of frustration in trying to communicate -- either by talking or writing -- and recognizing that virtually no one was listening! (smile) But one of the many lessons of life is that no one can really teach anyone anything ... unless that "anyone" is at the point where they are very close to knowing the truth about the subject matter at hand. We've all had the experience of looking at something familiar -- and suddenly seeing it in a whole new light. And also the experience of trying to explain something that is absolutely clear and real to us, but which another person has no concept whatsoever. (That was the idea conveyed in chapter 20 of Carlos Castaneda's 1972 book, "Journey to Ixtlan.")

I think that a significant % of people on DU are interested in subjects with more depth that much of the entertaining nonsense reported in the media. We can all learn, and we all have things to offer. This is a good forum for that ..... and so I do appreciate when kind people like yourself say, "Yeah, H2O Man, I hear what you are saying, and this is what I think..."

and has triggered a minor paradigm shift (or a major one). or perhaps that's what you're talking about.

I read you too, and usually agree. I think my problem is that you usually say it all!! And so well.

It also goes beyond that shift. When we think of children -- even the smartest of children -- we find ourselves smiling at their confidence that they can understand ANYTHING, just as long as it is explained to them. (At least that's the way children SHOULD be; our culture beats that confidence out of far too many!) But there are some subjects that a child can not grasp on an adult level, no matter how we approach it with them. Yet as adults, we are confident that they will fully grasp these adult concepts in good time.

Likewise, as individuals, we may on occassion have an understanding of a concept (and I do not mean simply a "talent") that other adults believe they can understand, just so long as someone explains it to them. But some things can't be explained in so many words. Yet we can be confident that others will fully grasp these when the goodness of the TRUTH takes root in them.

And perhaps that's one reason why many of my previous posts have gone unanswered. Not because I'm any wiser, or better informed, or more insightful. But because I have spoken up on issues such as non-violence, spirituality, and the need for all of us to journey toward a higher ground. Those of us who speak that way on DU do not always get a positive response! (grin) But I'm confident about the future in that area.

This thread is a high-point, I think, on DU. Not the highest point, but an important marker on our way. Again -- thank you for your kind words -- and let's keep this discussion going!

I too am like many others who have commented here. I can't think of any reason to comment further because you've said it all and expressed everything I've felt. Reading this thread is the same. There is little I can say but "I agree." You are da man...

but glad to see another CC fan here.
Would love to carry on a conversation about that sometime.

meantime, back to this thread....very interesting.

dp

Thanks for helping us appreciate that this plane can fly!

I am impressed with those who appreciate Voltaire. When I see the actions of this administration, I am reminded of a quote -- and please help me with it if I have it wrong -- that "Ignorance is the mother of all cruelty."

I also find myself nodding in agreement with your statements on those in the capacity of CI/MI ..... it's a serious business that involves many very good and decent people who love what this country has the potential to be.

Thanks - it is so reassuring to see others write posts that reflect the many layers involved in all of this. The posts that were happening over the weekend regarding cancelling the election had plenty of people spooked, but I think that they have the intelligence community psyched, they will not let weedboy destroy what they love, they are just more determined to get it right so that they get him. It is not just about getting them, its about preventing this type of madness from happening in the future.

I am not familiar with that Voltaire quote. I am bad about keeping up with quotes, but when one such as the Voltair quote touches my soul, I keep it. Wish I were as astute as he and as well read as you. I am trying though.

Thanks again

I have close to a couple of thousand posts, and, I think, that I have only had responses to a couple. Used to bug me, but now, I just write away.

Very good writing on your part. I, also, enjoyed your posts.

the most profound thing I've read in a long time. Thanks for this, H2O, got me some thinking to do!

think it means if it is true?

Plame "may have been active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components" when the White House revealed her identity

What I read that to say is, if bush* wasn't such a petty prick it may very well have played out that VALERIE PLAME could have discovered (or at least played a part) the WMD evidence that bush* used to justify his war?

Classic clustercheney.

Thank you, FoeOfBush ..... that is a key -- perhaps THE key -- to understanding what really occurred when the White House exposed Plame. Remember: the yellow-cake evidence had already been discredited, removed from speeches, re-inserted, and recycled.

Read Joseph Wilson's book. Carefully. The guy is brilliant. There is much more going on here than the network media's are revealing. I was shocked that Joe Klein had the decency to tell the public the truth in his 7-5 article in TIME (pg 21) .... which I have quoted from numerous times this week on DU.

Bush et al attacked Iraq because they knew that not only were there NO WMDs there, but that the UN inspectors had pretty much documented that fact. France and Germany were aware of this. As was China, I might add.

But we know that there are WMDs in many places on this planet. And investigate this with an open mind -- because the world is not a safe place today because of the # of unaccounted for weapons -- and there are enemies of the USA willing to use weapons against any American, because of the past and present policies of men like cheney. Now you begin to see what V Plame was working on .... and the big question remains: Why did the White House expose her? What investigation did they need to derail?

It's getting good on this thread, eh?

I think this all fits in here somewhere.

DrBB
PLEASE help me remember...
I distinctly recall reading an article related to all this in the New Yorker, well before 9/11. Pre-Bush II, also. Might have been by Sy Hersh. Might have been published in the first Clinton admin--that far back.

The occasion of the article was to bring out that, near the end of the Bush I administration, there had been an exceedingly narrowly-averted nuclear war on the Indian subcontinent. This was largely thanks to right-wing stupidity of some kind on the part of Bush I's foreign policy team. The article had a lot of evidence that we'd gone on high alert, and that India had come very close to nuking Pakistan. At that point, Pakistan did not have the Bomb, and my memory is hazy on the details of this, but what keeps bringing it to mind is this:

The article also went into some detail, IIRC, about US complicity in Pakistan's acquisition of nuclear technology. I seem to remember the article having been published before Pakistan tested its weapon, but I could be wrong about that, given the subject matter. Because the point was that the US not only looked the other way, but may have indirectly facilitated Pakistan's acquisition of necessary precursor technologies, in return for Pakistan's complicity in our operations in Afghanistan. That there was a quid pro quo: in return for allowing us to stage support for the anti-Soviet Afghan rebels through Pakistan, Pakistan required us to look the other way as they developed nuclear capability.
In other words, al Qaeda isn't the only blowback from our long and misguided involvement over there.
Anyone remember reading this, or seeing anything along these lines?

Here it is

On the Nuclear Edge

by Seymour M. Hersh
Issue of 1993-03-29
Posted 2004-01-12

In the past few weeks, news reports have revealed troubling information about the possible export of Pakistani nuclear technology to countries such as Iran and Libya, and about the role played in the transfers by Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan, who is known as the father of the Pakistani bomb. There have long been questions about Dr. Khan, who has, whenever possible, avoided the public eye. In this piece from 1993, Seymour M. Hersh takes a prescient look at Pakistan’s nuclear proliferation, and at Dr. Khan.

On May 30, 1990, President Mikhail Gorbachev of the Soviet Union arrived in Washington for his second summit meeting with President George Bush. The Cold War was over, and the publicly announced agenda reflected that fact: the two world leaders would concentrate their talks on the future of unified Germany and on renewed negotiations to reduce long-range nuclear weapons. Most Americans were increasingly upbeat about the prospects for world peace. A Times/CBS public-opinion poll of more than eleven hundred Americans taken a week before the summit showed that fewer than one in five believed nuclear war to be likely by the year 2000—far fewer than those interviewed in earlier polls.

There was a fearful irony in the poll, because in the days before Gorbachev’s visit the Bush Administration became convinced that the world was on the edge of a nuclear exchange between Pakistan and India, as both nations continued their tug-of-war over control of the state of Kashmir, on India’s northern border, whose status has been in dispute since the collapse of the British Empire in India, in 1947. During months of increasing tension, India had massed two hundred thousand troops, including paramilitary forces, in Kashmir, and had deployed five brigades of its most sophisticated attack unit, the Indian Army Strike Corps, fifty miles from the Pakistani border in the south. Pakistan, against which the much larger India had fought—and won—three wars since 1947, openly deployed its main armored tank units along the Indian border and, in secret, placed its nuclear-weapons arsenal on alert. There would be no repeat of the disastrous two-week war of December, 1971, when Pakistan, outgunned and outgeneraled, was dismembered by an Indian blitzkrieg and lost what is now Bangladesh.

The American intelligence community, also operating in secret, had concluded by late May that Pakistan had put together at least six and perhaps as many as ten nuclear weapons, and a number of senior analysts were convinced that some of those warheads had been deployed on Pakistan’s American-made F-16 fighter planes. The analysts also suspected that Benazir Bhutto, the populist Prime Minister of Pakistan, had been cut out of—or had chosen to remove herself from—the nuclear planning. Her absence meant that the nation’s avowedly pro-nuclear President, Ghulam Ishaq Khan, and the Pakistani military, headed by Army General Mirza Aslam Beg, had their hands, unfettered, on the button. There was little doubt that India, with its far more extensive nuclear arsenal, stood ready to retaliate in kind.

CONTINUED...

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/content/?040119fr_arch...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

presidential papers of his dad when he first set foot in the Oval Office. I think he arranged to have the Reagan papers locked away, too, right as they were legally about to be released to the public.

I still want to know what's in those papers, and why we were all of a sudden not allowed to see them, AND what's in those energy task force papers.

So much for "open" government, huh?

BTW, I love your posts.

I am under the impression that July 14th will be a significant day in this grand jury investigation. I certainly hope that more of the information now known will become public on that day. My suggestion that DUers buy a bottle of fine wine/ great beer, and some foods such as shrimp or cheese and crackers, still holds. I'm confident we will be very happy by 5 pm est that day.

Wouldn't that be nice. Nice wine, cheese, bagette, pate, it is!

GET DRUNK!

One should always be drunk. That's the great thing; the only question. Not to feel the horrible burden of Time weighing on your shoulders and bowing you to the earth, you should be drunk without respite.

Drunk with what? With wine, with poetry, or with virtue, as you please. But get drunk.

And if sometimes you should happen to awake, on the stairs of a palace, on the green grassof a ditch, in the dreary solitude of your room, and find that your drunkenness is ebbing or has vanished, ask the wind and the wave, ask star, bird, or clock, aske everything that flies, everything that moans, everything that flows, everything that sings, everything that speaks, ask them the time; and the wind, the wave, the star, the bird, and the clock will all reply: "It is Time to get drunk! If you are not to be the martyred slaves of Time, be perpetually drunk! With wine, with poetry, or with virtue, as you please."

Yes, Bastille Day ! Wine, cheese, and a toast to the freeing of all political prisoners! With wine, with poetry, and with virtue!

Enivrez-vous!

I aslo like Rimbaud's Le Bateau Ivre

Haliburton bribes in Nigeria? I have always believed that the anti-French propangda spewed by bushco was just a spin that they have perpetuated as a stop gap measure. If the French are our enemies, then any charges they bring that include/involve cheney will be suspect. Discredit the reputation of the attacker, make the public distrust it and you have weakened its credibility.

I'll be trolling the news.

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Valerie_Pl...

On July 14, 2003, the name of Valerie Plame, wife of retired Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, was exposed by columnist Robert Novak as a CIA covert operative, writing:

"Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate" the allegation.

- - -

Is this why you think the indictments will be coming out on July 14, 2004? Kind of an anniversary?

on anniversaries, the United States just loves them. We're one day away from the 4th of July ..... and I have three flags flying outside.... they represent JFK, MLK, & RFK ..... Each of these men loved poetry.

There's something poetic in what you've noted here, isn't there?

Any chance we can spend $70 million investigating this? Hell, $70 oughta do it and I'LL give $100 to cover it.

Un-cheneying-believable.

However, have you seen Jane's list of the weapons we have been selling, and to very questionable countries, including Columbia, Pakistan,Iran, and the list is endless. I would think that if we want to know where WMD's are, we could just check and see who we had sold them to. I was shocked when I read this.

And of course, that nugget was sitting here all this while. We think of them as stupid, inept, venal, eager to engage in petty vindictiveness. Sometimes we misunderestimate them.

I love your stuff, H2O Man! This is nuts!

I have been waiting on pins and needles, and wondering when the indictments are coming down, who they nail, and for what crimes, and how many "who they nail's" there are. Plus the "watch this space" stuff from Josh Marshall...

What investigation did they need to derail, indeed! Does that mean they knew what Plame was investigating, and that her work would prove they were liars? Or did they realize she was about to unearth all their connections to the Taliban, or Saddam, or al Qaeda in general and Osama in particular, or what? I'm going nuts here!

What do you think it means?

Thanks for all this thought-provoking stuff! It gets murkier and murkier, and smells fishier and fishier. Sure wish I had a crystal ball.

classic, "Critical Path." Here's part that, as Col. Prouty notes in his book "JFK," that the New York Times would print:

"Each new year's foreign aid bill had a rider that said if American companies were present in the country being aided, the money (from foreign aid funds) had to be spent through those American companies ....Foreign aid paid for all the new factories and machinery of all the American companies moving out of America. This became a pattern: first, the largest 100 corporations, then the 200 largest corporations followed, then what Fortune calls the 500 largest corporations ..... the main objective ... was for the corporations to get out from under the tax control of the American government .... This allowed the corporations to acquire gold equities while US citizens and small domestic businesses could not do so."

We've been "sold out" .... not just by the Kenny-Boy Lays who rob our savings accounts and retirement funds ..... but by other SNAKES who have no morals, no patriotism, and no sense of honor ... they are psychopaths (and I mean that 110%!) who have taken part in dealing weapons -- including the components of WMDs -- on the "black market" to forces that are determined to destroy America.

Earlier today, in response to a pointed comment about the "flat earth" believers, I wrote about the Malthusian theory of population, and what this implies in relation to the power elite. These two concepts are as closely related as the bush family and the Saudi royalty, and as dangerous as the weapons these folks have sold to Pakistan's snakey associates.

Plame and a number of others were investigating criminals far more dangerous that Saddam Hussein.

A litany of sins hath corporate personhood wrought.

Why don't more people understand that facet of the goings-on?

don't WANT people to understand this.

I certainly had no idea about what was going on with corporations until I got a computer in 1999 and started researching it for myself.

How many people are actually motivated to do that on their own? For every person I know with a computer, hardly ANY of them (outside of DUers) are using them for political information. They use them for shopping, emailing friends and playing computer games.

How many politicians or people in the public eye make a peep about corporate personhood? There's NO public debate about this sort of thing -- where would anyone ever hear about it in the first place?

We here at DU are a very self-selected group. What we know about a whole LOT of things is because we very purposefully seek out this information. We are very much the exception in the populace, quite atypical.

The vast bulk of the citizenry of this country seems happy to remain ignorant. If the mainstream media doesn't cover something, it doesn't exist. It's very simple...

sw

I have noticed that neocons/Straussians often go for a "two-fer". Scaring Joe Wilson and simultaneously derailing whatever Valerie Plame was investigating would have been a classic example of this.

Sorry I'm too tired right now to come up with any more examples.

" Why did the White House expose her? What investigation did they need to derail?"



Thanks from another fan H20. We can only hope the intelligence community takes this admin down before November.

Strange days indeed.

Treason, espionage, and what's the difference.

Oh and is it going to be President Hastert? Boy won't northern Illinois be proud.

Some secret cabal of the ultra powerful deciding the future of the Constitutional Government. Give me a break.

This is a legal matter, it will be handeled much like a car theft ring. There is no secrete group of world masters out there trying to figure out the fate of the nation. That's just more tin-foil-hat shit.

I think that probably those energy folks who met in secret with cheney in regard to US economic policy were not really an ultra powerful group determining our future. They were common folks, just like you and me. And the fact that vp cheney wants to keep it secret really just shows how open our government can be. How foolish of me to think otherwise!

And when the US Supreme Court selected bush as president at the end of the 2000 "election," they were simply acting in our best interests. It's trouble-makers like that darned tin-foiler Vince Bugliosi who writes "The Betrayal of Amertica," documenting the financial interests that behind closed doors swayed the court that lead idiots like me astray. And if tens of thousands of black voters are illegally taken off the rolls, and denied the right to vote, it's probably for the good of the democratic system. Who are we to question what Ms. Harris & friends do?

The Patriot Act is not anti-democratic. It's those foil-heads that get whipped into a frenzie by that conspiracy theorist Michael Moore that question it. Even Brittany Spears said we should trust president bush. I hope she does a concert with Pat Boone soon.

We've been told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about the war in Iraq. And there was nothing secret about exposing Plame. At least it was discussed publicly.

When General wesley Clark (retired) told Richard Clarke to come public with what he knew, it was only to cause problems. These men hate freedom. Besides, they've never been elected to public office.

This White House hasn't done anything worse than jay-walking. They pose no threat to the democratic system at all. Thanks for helping me with this.

No sarcasm intended I'm sure

I've changed my entire belief system, based entirely upon the wisdom and insight provided by a new friend. I've peeled off that tin-foil that blinded me in the past. Where once I thought there was evidence that a "secret" group of individuals could kill leaders like JFK, MLK, and RFK, I now realize that the Warden's Commission told the truth. These events were no worse than a group of high school students seeing how many gold fish would fit into a phone booth. I have a renewed sense of patriotism that provides an intense security in its shallowness.

All is well remain calm. Our fearless leader will protect us all.

Hey H20, I almost spit tea all over the screen.

Thanks, I am awake now.

Your posts are always a pleasure, and I am looking forward to watching the Plame case play out. I've thought since it broke that it would be this administration's undoing. I hope I am right, but I recognize the danger our democracy is in as it works through this process. Guess that makes me a tinfoil hatter too. (I'm late, I'm late, for a very important date with a coincidence theorist...)

Sorry for the rambling...not enough caffeine in me yet. Carry on.

If you spit green pea soup, I'd be concerned that a republican spirit was moving through you. I'm starting to wake up this morning, too .... this was an interesting thread, and I'd love to continue with it today. I've got an errand to run, and then I'm thinking of a question to ask .... in terms of who the "deep throat/ Mr. X" will be in this case .... while people are often (correctly) a bit anxious about the role of military people in "civilian" politics, it was good of Gen. Al Haig (part of the composit Deep Throat) to help expose Watergate, and for Col.L.F. Prouty to help with the JFK assassination.

continue this discussion today but unfortunately I have to go to work....I'll check back later though and try to catch up.

why would Ret. Gen. Wesley Clark advise Clarke to go public only to cause problems? What are you insinuating is Clark's role in all of this?

response to Kong's statement. That said, those who follow the news know that Gen. Wesley Clark is reported to be the key person in convincing Richard Clarke to write his book. The "trouble making" part was the joke -- Gen. Clark is among the most honorable people in our country. He represents the most insightful and patriotic of military (retired) leaders. There can be little question that he is not alone in identifying the powers backing the bush administration as the single greatest threat to democracy our country faces.

could one not think that there is something larger going on here? I'm usually not one for conspiracy theories but I do agree with Michael Moore's statement in F911 that there is a huge economic motive - a motive to keep things status quo.

"When General wesley Clark (retired) told Richard Clarke to come public with what he knew, it was only to cause problems."

Huh? Clark told Clarke to go public?

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ended in 1520, when Magellan's ships proved the earth was a sphere. (I knew that 7th grade social studies would prove important one day!) As Prouty notes, "certain educated" people in Europe already knew it was a sphere, but Magellan's voyage made it where those involved in commerce -- the "wealthy financial backers" -- became aware that there was not only an opportunity for global trading .... but also that if the earth was round, there was a finite amount of resources.

Proutey notes that in 1805, Thomas Malthus "postulated the idea that humanity is multiplying its numbers at a geometric rate while increasing its life-support capability at only an arithmatic rate. As a result, it has been universally concluded by the power elite that only a relatively few humans are destined to survive successfully ."

That's almost as far-fetched as a group of Supreme Court justices appointed by Republicans deciding to halt a recount, thereby installing a Republican as President of the United States.

you'll change your mind...Are you really of the school that we have a constitutional government by the people, for the people?

By "the real power" do you mean those who are trying to make changes for the better? Or....?

There is a struggle for power occuring at levels beyond what the media reports.

I would like to hope that these monsters are finally going down, but there are so many times people have said, "This is it!" I just don't know.

in recent weeks. But I'm not entirely objective. (smile)

Now, in response to your post: these monsters will not go willingly. They lack the decency of even a Richard Nixon. Thus, the question becomes: how far are they willing to go to remain in power?

To answer that, we must first define what "power" they have? I tend to go by that definition used by Col. Prouty (the actual Mr. X from the movie JFK), which was a quote from the fabled "Report From Iron Mountain on the Possibility and Desirability of Peace," by Leonard Lewin, based on a study from Defense Secretary Robert McNamara in the summer of 1963:

"The organizing principle of any society is for war. The basic
authority of a modern state over its people resides in its
war powers..."

Now, examine this in the context of the war in Iraq, and the criminal incident of outting Plame .... remember the wonderful scene in JFK when Donald Sutherland's character (Man X) says the key is found in the question: "Why?" Because without any debate on the rest of that movie, that question remains the most important ..... WHY was JFK killed, as opposed to "how?", which tends to waste time ....

Plame was acting at the highest level of CI to investigate the ACTUAL TRAFFICKING OF WMD COMPONENTS. Yes, they were pissed at Ambassador Wilson .... but it goes far deeper than Niger & yellow-cake uranium.

I think it would be interesting to see what theories we can come up with on DU this afternoon ..... Why?