America is so Religious, it's SCARY!

[Liberator_Rev]

In a Aug.15th N.Y. Times editorial, "Believe It, or Not"
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/15/opinion/15KRIS.html?ex=1061956996&ei=1&en=ac8d7a6978c28365
NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF made these observations about America, which I believe all Liberal Americans should find scary, including "Liberals Like Christ", like myself:

Today marks the Roman Catholics' Feast of the Assumption, honoring the moment that they believe God brought the Virgin Mary into Heaven {an empyrical event for which there is not a shred of empyrical or revealed evidence, by the way} . So here's a fact appropriate for the day: Americans are three times as likely to believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus (83 percent) as in evolution (28 percent).
So this day is an opportunity to look at perhaps the most fundamental divide between America and the rest of the industrialized world: faith. Religion remains central to American life, and is getting more so, in a way that is true of no other industrialized country, with the possible exception of South Korea.
Americans believe, 58 percent to 40 percent, that it is necessary to believe in God to be moral. In contrast, other developed countries overwhelmingly believe that it is not necessary. In France, only 13 percent agree with the U.S. view. (For details on the polls cited in this column, go to http://www.nytimes.com/kristofresponds .)
The faith in the Virgin Birth reflects the way American Christianity is becoming less intellectual and more mystical over time. The percentage of Americans who believe in the Virgin Birth actually rose five points in the latest poll...
The result is a gulf not only between America and the rest of the industrialized world, but a growing split at home as well. One of the most poisonous divides is the one between intellectual and religious America.
. . . despite the lack of scientific or historical evidence, and despite the doubts of Biblical scholars, America is so pious that not only do 91 percent of Christians say they believe in the Virgin Birth, but so do an astonishing 47 percent of U.S. non-Christians.
I'm not denigrating anyone's beliefs. And I don't pretend to know why America is so much more infused with religious faith than the rest of the world. But I do think that we're in the middle of another religious Great Awakening, and that while this may bring spiritual comfort to many, it will also mean a growing polarization within our society.
But mostly, I'm troubled by the way the great intellectual traditions of Catholic and Protestant churches alike are withering, leaving the scholarly and religious worlds increasingly antagonistic."

So long as the response of Democrats to these sociological facts of life in America today continues to be DENIAL, and the Republican response is to claim without any justification to be the "Party of Christ", just as it claims to be "the Party of Lincoln", Democrats will continue to lose badly in elections where 80% of the voters identify themselves as "Christians".

Our http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/graphs pages show why the religious demographics could and should favor Democrats if only they took advantage of them, instead of letting the Republicans use them to their advantage &
http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Democrats shows why devout Christians and Jews need to be reminded that the Bible gives them have many more reasons to be Democrats, than Republicans.


at http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org .

See what Christ might say about the "Christian Coalition" & "Religious Right" imposters.



P.S. Even from a religious standpoint I find the "religiosity" of America disturbing because it's so superficial and misguided. While Christology, for example, tends to produce action on behalf of the needy, Mariolotry is more likely to lead to fingering rosary beads, and identification with clergy who promote the rosary.

[papau]

1. rosary = worry beads = before Christ habit

Islam, Orthodox, etc have the beads.

Something to with your hands before smoking sigs was invented

I view Mary worship as a response to industralization making women 2nd class humans. Why the Pope caved to these groups in the 1850's I have not a clue.

But not to worry.

And I agree that a Dem party that tries to put down faith is not going to win elections.

[arendt]

2. Historically, the Mary cult was a response to the romantic love

Mary was rolled out about 1300 AD to co-opt the fascination
for Romantic Love, which had been created by the French
Troubadours. Romantic Love appeared at the same time as
the Cathar heresy, so the Church lumped them all together.

The Catholics had already hijacked all the Celtic symbology-
may pole fertility celebrations turned into Easter rituals, etc.

Mary was a cult long before the Industrial Revolution.

arendt

[Warpy]

5. The Mary cult

predates even that. They had to use Mary to convert the bulk of Europe, which had been used to goddesses who interceded with violent and vindictive male gods for far too long to give them up completely.

That is exactly the position Mary serves. She's no goddess, being female and therefore very second class, but she does have a son...

[FloridaPat]

3. There were very few times in history were women were

not second class citizens. That is one thing that the Christian, Muslim, and Jewish religions have in common - making women the non-enitity.

[Mari333]

9. anyone who has read Goddesses and Gods of Neolithic Europe

might be astounded by the research available in it, using symbol, metaphor, gravesites and archeoanthropology to show that Patriarchal societies, such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam , are very recent phenomenon...and have used old imagery from pre patriarchal times (when women were sacred), to promote their misogyny...
Allah was once Al Lat, a female, not a male..it was priestesses who circled Mecca, not men...
as for the other two...anyone who wants to see where the Star of David was co opted from need only check out the Hindu symbol of the same thing...etc etc etc
Mary , in the catholic church, is a rehashed version of many names of the goddess that was once more powerful...around 3500 BC and til now, we live in a world of patriarchy...period...
Hopefully, the balance will shift someday from misogyny to something more humane .

[donsu]

11. true

nt

[leesa]

10. Well most cultures did that...religion or no religion

All I see are giant steps backward. Wasn't there also a 'Mary-type' in Egyptian lore? I know the creation story basically derived from Egyptian mythology pre-dating Judaism.

[Mari333]

13. Isis-Osiris

Osiris was a fertility symbol..Isis was the Mother...
(think in metaphors, not literal facts)..
the statues in Egypt of the Mother Isis suckling her son Osiris are very similar to the Mary suckling Jesus statues and paintings.

[Mari333]

15. There are thousands of creation stories out there

from the beginning of human history til now. most, it seems, involve the humanization of the creator based on the life force of sex, genitalia, and the symbols of nature ..from vagina worship to penis worship, (which seems to be where we are now..)

[rasputin1952]

23. In my humble opinion...

after reading scriptures and learning what Jesus was teaching us, I have come to the conclusion that Jesus was the first great Progressive. Many of his teachings are about equality, and although the 12 Apostles were male, Jesus had female followers as well, and He never differentiated between them. He healed all that came to him, male or female, and he turned no one away.

However, he was pretty heavy on hypocrites, and most of them in the scriptures are male. Whereas, at the well, and later, when Jesus is confronted with the crowd and the adultress, (ever wonder where the other adulterer was, the male?), Jesus shows his elevation of the status of women, by treating them not as inferior creatures, but as equals! This is such an important distinction, it should not be overlooked.

Also, Jesus chose women as the first He was to meet after the resurection, and they were told to go and tekll the Apostles, who were somewhat unbelieving. (I have often wondered why Jesus chose some of the more, let's say, 'challenged' men of the area. After all, these men saw all kinds of miracles and yet almost to a man, had little true faith in their Leader, until they were filled with the Spirit). In any case, the women in the account seem to have had no problem accepting Jesus as whom He said He was.

I agree that we Dems cannot hope to win the majority, if we continue to disguise the fact that so many believe in 'religion'. To denigrate anyone because of their religious beliefs is pretty darn low. Live and let live, and if you disagree, you have the right to speak up, but you may bite off more than you can chew; Faith runs deeply in those that have seen and felt what is out there waiting to be found by others.

O8)

[liberalmuse]

4. 'religious', not 'spiritual'

I believe there is a difference. Religious people usually live by a book of laws. They project their fears onto 'the other'. If things aren't going the way they should, they blame, and eventually persecute 'the other' for bringing down god's wrath.

Spiritual people look within themselves as well as the world around them to find answers. They don't try to force their beliefs on others, rather, they try to embody their beliefs.

[gully]

6. I agree, thanks!

Has anyone seen these...

http://www.liberaljesus.com/

http://www.jesuswasademocrat.com/

[Droopy]

7. I think you're right about Dems needing the fundie vote

But have Dems really been putting down Christians? I know there are a lot of outspoken atheists here at DU, but I'll bet you'd find that Christians outnumber them on this board in numbers that are consistent with the rest of the country if we could get all members to take a poll.

I think the biggest issue that righty Christians have with Dems is abortion. I don't think you're going to see many Dems switch to pro-life just to satisfy Christian voters who have a problem with pro-choice.

In your view, what must be done to gain more of the Christian vote? And since I might be missing something, where are the Dems going wrong?

[bloom]

12. poll comparisons Democrats/Republicans

While the polls don't really measure spiritual involvement, fundamentalism, etc., they're interesting nontheless.

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=359


90% of adults (93% of Republicans and 90% of Democrats) believe in God

84% of adults (87% of Republicans and 83% of Democrats) believe in "Survival of the Soul after Death"

80% of adults (87% of Republicans and 78% of Democrats) believe in The Resurrection of Jesus

77% of adults (86% of Republicans and 73% of Democrats) believe in the Virgin Birth

69% of adults (82% of Republicans and 63% of Democrats) believe in Hell

51% of adults (42% of Republicans and 53% of Democrats) believe in Ghosts

31% of adults (19% of Republicans and 40% of Democrats) believe in Astrology

27% of adults (18% of Republicans and 31% of Democrats) believe in Reincarnation

[alaine]

20. This poll is absolute crap.

There are hundreds of religions in this country yet this poll makes no mention of them whatsoever. The categories are 'Christian and non-Christian', and the even more ridiculous 'Christians and others'. This is a poll that asked people online about specific CHRISTIAN beliefs, and therefore most likely garnered CHRISTIAN responses. There is such an enormous error in the slant of the poll that the answers are completely unreliable. Were I to receive it I would be offended by the obviously pro-Christian bias of the questions and would not even bother responding. Sadly it looks like fundie crap, and on my site it would be instantly deleted. I read through some of the other 2003 polls and was surprised to see that they seem to be more believeable.

By grouping non-Christians, i.e. Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Buddhists, Wiccans, etc, into a group called "others", it is off-putting from the outset and doubtless many non-Christians ignored it. (Although seeing that it claims 77% of 2000 Americans believe in the virgin birth, I'll definitely not ignore any polls like this in the future). Where is the study polling Americans about their Jewish beliefs, or their Wiccan beliefs?
Of course the discrepancies in the point of view revealed by the questioning are covered in the fine print where it says the poll may veer out of the usual margin of error due to non-response. You don't say.

The only thing on the whole page that I felt was near accurate was the statistic that asserted that "only 1% expected to go to hell".

[rasputin1952]

25. WOW! 1% expect to go to hell...

You'd think that if they believed in hell, they'd try to change their ways....maybe it has something to do with a certain willingness "to tough it out".

:bounce:

[Ardee]

8. there are facts and then there are facts

I was struck by the statistical "evidence" used to support what I believe to be Kristof having fun with us or perhaps running out of material. Especially tha e cited figure of 83% believing in the immaculate conception and virgin birth while only 28% believe in evolution....so i went to the provided link and found:

The most stunning religion survey I found is the one in which 47 percent even of American non-Christians say they believe in the virgin birth. The source of that data is a Harris Poll from Aug. 12, 1998, with a sample of 1,011 adults. That survey found that 94 percent of adults believe in God, 86 percent believe in miracles, 89 percent believe in Heaven, and 73 percent believe in the Devil and in Hell.

So, with the population of the USA at over two hundred million, we are expected to believe that 1,011 represent an accurate majority opinion,sorry I cant stretch credulity that far. Too many variables unmentioned, which is why I have trouble with most polls, frankly , and why I seethe at poll driven political campaigns........

[Liberator_Rev]

18. Are polls reliable?

I'm sure that some polls are unreliable. But if they were not generally reliable, why would anybody believe in them? Is it really necessary to poll 100% of a population to find out its views?

My guess is that pollsters feel it is safe to stop polling when they reach a level at which more polling doesn't change the outcome. For example. If you ask Americans in a truly random way whether they prefer Democrats or Republicans and after reaching 1000 people the percentage is 54.4% (or whatever) and after 1100 & 1200 the percentage doesn't budge from 54.4% how long do you have to continue polling before coming to the conclusion that you have polled enough?

[Kellanved]

14. Europeans are scared by it

Especially by leader citing the bible and claiming a mission from god.
Letting christian ethics guide/constrain the policy is okay, if borderline - claiming a connection to god while breaking every commandment is scary.

Things like the American Ambassador never working on sundays and so on have led to raised eyebrows.

In general it is very hard for us to understand the American style of faith (Death Penalty). And one is easily scared by things not understood.

[Mari333]

16. Europeans arent cut off from their own pagan history

its all around them...in their backyards....stone circles, caves full of neolithic art, neolithic and paleolithic graves , dolmens, etc....they are everywhere!!!

the US white pop has no idea that the european ancestry they come from wasnt always "christian"...when I showed people pictures of the burial mounds I saw in Ireland, they asked me "what Native American did that??"

they are clueless, many of them , of their own European neolithic and paleolithic history.

[joefree1]

17. Some of us Americans are getting our pagan history back.

Surrounded by the diversity of nature I find it impossible not to believe in a diverse spiritual and nature based way of life.

[Mari333]

19. agreed..and many of the symbolism/metaphors found at sacred sites

In Europe, are nature based symbols...
There is a resurgunce in the US for european americans to recognize their pre christian heritage from Europe...thats good...

[alaine]

21. It at least deserves a capital P for Pagan.

Or Pre-Christian.

[JVS]

29. Germans are concerned about someone not working on Sunday?

As someone who has had the misfortune of getting to the grocery store at 1700 on Saturday and figuring out numerous religious hollidays were taking place by waiting more than 20 minutes for a bus that wasn't coming I find this situation deliciously ironic.

[Kellanved]

32. For a politician it is noteworthy, yes.

If the the circumstances require it its' 7/24.

The laws for shops were softenend (or hardened, depends on the point of view); it's now 6 working days (so Saturday 17h won't happen any more) and bakeries are allowed to open sundays, as are shops near train stations.


Besides: Were you in religios southern Germany? In Berlin there are lots of small shops and even one shopping mall opening seven days a week. Far fewer Holidays as well.

[JVS]

33. Bavaria

[Liberator_Rev]

22. Response to Droopy re: difficulty of Abortion issue.

In response to your question in the post above, Droopy, we don't believe Democrats need to run away from or apologize for their Liberal views on either abortion or gay rights.

We tackle the abortion issue head on at http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/ChristianChoice
and the gay rights issue at http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/ChurchvsGays .

We have no illusions about moving hard core Fundies, but there's a whole range of convictions from ultra-Liberal to ultra-Conservative, and we strive to move those who CAN be moved because they are on the fence so to speak.

[flyingfish]

24. Rev, read this

http://www.pittsburghcatholic.org/newsarticles_more.phtml?id=959

Since you passed on the distortions to others, maybe you can apologize now.

[Liberator_Rev]

26. This settles everything: Catholic paper defends the Vatican!

Do you also believe that Bush is proven right when Republicans say so?

[SharonAnn]

27. I'm not so sure we're really "religious". We have a lot of cult members

in the country and they're pretty well brainwashed.

Don't really see much religiosity around.

[Liberator_Rev]

28. Nobody is arguing for quality religion, just quantity.

In my own opinion, secular Europeans "Liberals" who believe in justice and equality are more religious in the best sense of the word than American church-goers whoses idea of a "good Christian" is GWB!

[WilliamPitt]

30. wait wait wait wait

Was Kristof asserting that only 28% of Americans believe in evolution? If so, I'd have to see some reputable backup data there. I didn't realize we had teleported back before the Scopes trial. Am I just in my little empirical New England cocoon here?

[cantwealljustgetalong]

31. ol' time religion...

"The earth has people of two kinds, the ones who think, have no religion, the others do, and have no minds." - the 11th-century Syrian-born poet, Abu al-Ala al-Maarri...

[donsu]

34. 11th century wisdom still flies today

thanks for the post

[Cheswick2.0]

36. Well as long as Abu al-Ala al-Maarri says so

it must be true then... lol

[Blue_Chill]

35. I find it hard to believe a Christian started this thread.

I must say I thought we had differences of opinion Rev. but until just now I thought you actually were a Christian. But now I see that you have no 'faith'. You are what seems to be a secular follower of Jesus' teachings.


You are correct that we need Christian votes. but the way you made your point is disturbing.