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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 08:59 PM
Original message
Perspectives: The History of Beheading
Unlike the hyped-up revision our (USA) mass media throws at us, execution by beheading has a history going back as far as the Greeks and Romans.

http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/behead.html

Exerpt:

Beheading was widely used in Europe and Asia until the 20th century, but now is confined to Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Yemen and Iran. Saudi Arabia publicly beheaded 52 men and 1 woman for murder, rape, sodomy and drug offences in 2003. (See Saudi Arabia below). One man was beheaded in Iran the first for many years.

Beheading was used in Britain up to 1747 (see below) and was the standard method in Norway (abolished 1905), Sweden (up to 1903), Denmark and Holland (abolished 1870), and was used for some classes of prisoner in France (up until the introduction of the guillotine in 1792) and in Germany up to 1938.

China also used it widely, until the communists came to power and replaced it with shooting in the twentieth century. Japan too used beheading up to the end of the nineteenth century prior to turning to hanging.
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. So now I'm supose to feel better
Because if it's history?
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Nope you don't have to feel better, just please don't freak out
and call all Arabs in-human ... then cheer lead to bomb the entire middle east.

My hope was that by presenting information that even the Brits did not consider it a barbaric method of execution may calm the right wing firestorm for more indiscriminate house bombings. And that damn Al Zarkawi sure gets around Faluja, well hell, every freaking terrorist attack is blamed on him. The coalition lies without impunity, the world does not believe a word of it.

Watch and/or listen to the BBC and News World International if you doubt me. The oohs and awes make any enemy we deem to be "a terrorist" in-human and in need of killing. Damn, didn't we call the cruel Vietnamese GOOKS? And we all knew in the 1960s, that the only good Vietnamese was a dead one. Damn, you're letting BushCo. rationalizing the need for more indiscriminate MURDER.
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I would have to disagree
Not because they are Arab, but because they kill innocent people.

They are subhuman, so are Americans & anyone else that kill the innocent.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. In both of the so called "indisputable" intelligence reports
Edited on Tue Jun-22-04 09:40 PM by ElectroPrincess
claimed by General "bad people have parties too" Kimmit, WE (the USA) killed INNOCENT people. It doesn't negate that fact (murder of children) just because we meant to kill only the evil terrorists.

Nope, the humanity rules also apply to us (USA) and the use of our state sponsored terrorism (our bombs) because the innocents killed are "just as dead."

On Edit: addition = these people who brutally kill are still HUMANs who commit evil and horrid murders. When you label a group of people, especially as vague of label as "terrorist" as SUB-HUMAN, you're buying into the time old tested propaganda ploy that makes it A OK for them to need killing. That will only result in more innocents being murdered on both sides.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. In fact in 18th century Britain, beheading was the 'easy' option
because the alternative sentence for treason, for those not lucky enough to be peers of the realm like Simon Fraser (Lord Lovatt), was hanging, drawing and quartering. See http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/hdq.html and http://www.strum.co.uk/twilight/hdq.htm .
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. 200 years ago other people did it
and I doubt they did it with a knife, hacking away at some one with a large kitchen knife is barbaric.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. no one called Arabs unhuman
Jesus your lecture mode is really insufferable to say nothing of misleading. No one here is calling "arabs" in-human. People have said that the specific people who hack away at captives necks with a sharp knife are in-human.
Please stop with the Self-righteous, intentional misinterpretation of what people are actually saying.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. OK, I'll be specific ...
Edited on Wed Jun-23-04 08:51 AM by ElectroPrincess
In another thread you stated something to the effect that "they're going to keep this up until we nuke them." That population (the nuked) would involve more than a few Arabs.

To be honest, we are at an impasse. I've served in the military and been with my brother (Capt.) to a state penitentiary. Guess you could say that I'm quite jaded at the particular "method" of killing.

But I do know three truisms: 1)dead is dead; 2)murder is murder; 3) military contractors are no more innocent than what we term "collateral damage" (women, children and baby's) killed in Kimmit's so called Al Zakowi safe houses that are promptly blown to smithereens.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #13
27. Here's the specific link ...
Here's the link, response #13, where you expressed the above sentiments.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Let's all (especially me) take a long look in the mirror, we're all capable of self-righteous sentiments in such difficult times. BTW I think your sig Fishy is beautiful ... love the color and expression.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. The guillotine was used in France into the 1950's n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 09:43 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 09:47 PM
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et in Arcadia ego... Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. "Beheading" on 5000 year old Narmer palette...
They've been lopping off noggins in that part of the world as long as recorded history, and probably before, as attested by the Narmer palette from c.3000 bce. Go here to check it out, and scroll down to get the better view.

http://www.ancient-egypt.org/kings/0101_narmer/palette....
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Thanks for the updated information :-)
I was using a valid site but dated on UK methods of execution.
Truth = I was surprised that beheading is not all that unusual in the recent past.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
33. Hi October Surprise!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 06:17 AM
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Mr. PeanutFarmer, please don't shoot the messenger
Are you aware that members of the Bush administration, including the generally diplomatic Secretary of State, Colin Powell, have made an issue of beheading? They have called on Islamic and Arabic leaders to prove their allegiance to the civilized world by showing outrage at such acts. However such language is meant to be understood, whether as an articulation of how the US wants to relate* to other states, or as an attempt to solidify domestic support for the war on terror, it is the kind of rhetoric we should assess critically. We cannot call ourseleves good citizens and Democrats while allowing the rightwing to exploit the imagery of beheading for its narrow political ends.

Is it in our interests to view the present conflict in Iraq as a manifestation of a conflict of civilizations? Is it an accurate view of the world? In my opinion, if it is not an accurate picture of the way things really are, then it is probably not a productive way to approach foreign policy.








*one almost writes "retaliate"
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 07:34 AM
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. belittle?
Comparisons to the atrocities committed at Abu Ghraib may indeed be apt, as your parapraxis suggests. Those acts too are crimes against humanity. That's an important perspective to have because it undermines a certain set of symbolic meanings that our government is, with much success, apparently, foisting upon us.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
14. Oh, well, I guess I am over-reacting
For the record, I doubt those beheadings were done with a freakin' kitchen knife or whatever keeps getting used.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
17. This kind of stuff is ridiculous.
Of course there of have always been beheadings. The point is that there haven't been terrororist beheadings of kidnapped civilians on video under anyone but Bush. And many of the inhuman scum that are doing it are justifying it by pointing to Abu Ghraib.

The reckless, hasty, ill-supported, and panicked way Bush took us to war has given Middle East extremists more reason to hate Americans -- and now a green light to behead people on video.

It never happened until Bush. DemoTex is right. No wonder Bush's poll ratings keep falling. No one would support Bush if they truly realized what he has done. But he is spending billions of American dollars right now to keep things under the rug until after the election. Then watch the request for $50 billion and all hell to break loose.
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Liberal Classic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #17
30. Again, have some perspective
The point is that there haven't been terrororist beheadings of kidnapped civilians on video under anyone but Bush.

This horrid practice is nothing new. Tapes and films of political murders predate the Bush Administration. While there's plenty to criticize, I find it rather childish to blame anything and everything on it. Let's have some perspective. Politically motivated killings have been taped and filmed long before now, from Columbia to Israel to Ghana to East Timor.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. It's so simple. Before the war, no beheadings on video...
... after the war, beheadings on video. I don't call it perspective to avoid facts. You can apparently perspective yourself into blindness, I guess.

We are looking at a new terrorist technique. Your quibble is it isn't very original?
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
18. no more barbaric
than this...



or this...



or this...



or this...




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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #18
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I didn't forget them
they are irrelevant to the point.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 08:34 AM
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. related only tangentially
and not germane to my point.

When you put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 08:56 AM
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
28. question?
what happens to chicken heads when the birds are prepared for consumers? Ever buy a fryer with its head still attached?

All that being said, there doesn't seem much evidence that pigs or chickens, unlike human beings, are able to rationalize their actions.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 09:25 AM
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
25. Well, at least, they are light years ahead of the west in treating
women.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 09:03 AM
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. The arab countries.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 09:22 AM
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