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Outlaw420 Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 04:58 PM
Original message
I have a serious Question
I have been looking at both sides of the fence for about 2 months now and I believe i am more confused than i was when i began this whole journey. I see republicans shouting about how the Democrats are traitors and totaly un-American. Ok Then i see Democrats shouting the very SAME thing about Republicans.

Does anyone tell the absolute truth anymore??

All i see here today is hate!

Are we not all American?

It seems to me that everyone on BOTH sides do not take the time to gather the whole truth before sprouting TRAITORS! TRAITORS! TRAITORS!

This is what i see today:
We are at war like it or not we are there and cannot get out of it now. Not only are we at war across the ocean but we are also under seige here at home too. This cannot continue or it will tear apart this great country that everyone seems to love. Why is it that we cannot see past our own nose on such things?

I grieve for this country

Not because the Republicans or Democrats

But because the people seem to have lost their unity in this country. Do we not have a good enough country to believe in?
Home of the brave and the Land of the Free!
But not anymore to many arguments about who can "run" this country better.

I do not claim either party in this matter I stand with the founding fathers of this nation and believe that we are better than this.
Freedom has a cost
and neither side is willing to take the steps to save our freedom only more legislation.

One side wants me to die for my country(I will if I have too)
The other side wants me to stand against the government(again I will if I have to) but I have been given no good reason to do either.

This whole mess makes me sick and ashamed to even be alive to see such events within our own borders.

Forget sitting on the fence
where the hell is the gate so i can get away from this
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. what complete nonsense
"The other side wants me to stand against the government(again I will if I have to) but I have been given no good reason to do either."

No good reason to stand against Bush? Haven't you been paying attention?

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Outlaw420 Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Obviously you didn't either
Neither side has given me enough to stand with them
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. well, then sit down and enjoy the show.
Edited on Thu Jun-17-04 05:05 PM by thebigidea
by the way, can you name a single Dem in office who called a Republican a traitor or un-American?

Thought you couldn't.
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
28. So don't stand with anyone I don't give a damn what you do!
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Demonaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
29. we don't all march in lockstep here, but we all agree in one thing
BUSH HAS TO GO, if you don't care for the more radical members then ignore their posts, if you don't care for the more moderate then DU isn't for you, we can no longer be nice or accommodating to the RW, they've taken advantage of the goodwill and apathy liberals allow.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. And I thought we were the side that loved government
:shrug: I suspect if the poster would read a little history things may become more clear.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. Flame bait
"there's no difference"
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. either that or smoke more, while watching endless Rumsfeld footage
Edited on Thu Jun-17-04 05:03 PM by thebigidea
that'll do the trick, Clockwork Orange-style.
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Say WHAT?
When did smoking LESS pot ever help. :evilgrin:
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lovedems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. You need to differentiate between hate and anger.
I will only speak for myself when I tell you I am very angry. I am angry at the way GWB has led this country. The mistakes he has made will effect my children and possibly my grand children.

I tell you it is because I believe in my country that I am angry. She deserves a hell of alot better then she has been getting.

If you have been paying attention, you would be angry too.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. outlaw i am a middle of road, and would have never called self a liberal
Edited on Thu Jun-17-04 05:09 PM by seabeyond
before the right made liberal a dirty word. now i feel an obligation to call myself that and dare anyone to loook me in the eye and tell me i am unchristian, unamerican or a traitor.

can anything be done in competence when it is done in lie adn greed and not forward thinking. all you need do is look at how bush executed this war to see he is imcompetent and our people and innocent people are dieing in iraq because of this incompetence.

how long do you allow incompetence when lives are being lost

it isnt a hard one for me

what i have found is there isnt a brazenness to lieing with the democrats, and for you to be comfortable in that it might take a while in reading and researching. i can tell you from 1998 bush lies. that is significant to me

you are right, when i listen to the right and listen to the left i get an odd feeling how the same language is being used, so i dont go to calling names. i research what has been being done to this country the last four years and go with the facts

if you think this is to protect our freedom, i would suggest the greatest pain for me is seeing so much of our freedom being taken away, and this is the world my children are participating in. i want more

wish you the best of luck. go with the facts, and forget peoples opinion. and see if facts doesnt make more sense
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doni_georgia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. I do love this country which is why I am angry as hell and determined
to do my part to get bushco out of office. Do yourself a favor and search the facts. If you are truly undecided and uncertain who's right, then you need to start by doing some reading. Don't take our words for it. Read the PNAC document. Read John Dean's book, "Worse than Watergate." Find transcripts of the AA 911 tapes that I have been listening to today. The facts are there for anyone who wants them, you just aren't going to find them on TV news.
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
11. It's a sports game
with all the big players getting the attention and money while us stupidos cheer one or the other on and pay soul costing ticket prices like the doofuses we are trained to be. Good and evil, black and white - no room for thinking on your own here, folks, we'll do that for you - for a hefty price.

I despise the whole fucking rotting slimey system. If this were happening under a Democrat Pres i would be equally as pissed. I have no party except the one of thinking I belong to humanity and as far as comfort goes, I get along a Lot easier with liberal/democrat minds than repubs. but that does NOT ensure I would be an autobot slave to the party.
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theoceansnerves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
12. vote libertarian then
:eyes:
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. bullcrap on voting for a distance third party....
If Nadar got the fuck out of the picture, maybe JUST MAYBE (some doubts tho, esp. regarding frickening cheating by the repugs) Gore would have got the 2000. and maybe the world wouldn't be owned right now by a fucking retard chimp with a shakey delerium tremens thumb on the red button.
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. but what the hell am I saying.
There is only one party.
We just pretend to have any goddamned say with our useless non existent votes for OUR benefit. I'm so disgusted. I want to projectile vomit right now - we are so screwed, they have us by the short curly ones in every facet and avenue of our lives.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. we have two parties who can win ............vote democratic
Edited on Thu Jun-17-04 05:59 PM by Cheswick
not falling for the "its all futile" meme.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
34. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Outlaw420 Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. Say what you will
I know what i ment when i wrote it
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progdonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
14. just speaking for myself
I think the main difference is that, when the RNC and pundits talk about us liberals being traitors, they are accusing the people themselves of treason, not just the party leadership. When Democrats talk of Republicans being traitors to their country, etc., they are talking about the party leadership (though, as I say above, I can only vouch for myself). Bush voters aren't all traitors to the US; a few are, yes, but most are just dupes, fools, Party loyalists (ahem, McCain), and fanatically religious morons.

I don't consider your average Republican voter or politician a traitor. John McCain isn't a traitor; neither is Arlen Specter. However, Dubya, Delay, Hastert, Frist, Santorum, Ashcroft, Scalia, etc. are traitors, for they are selling out the People (of both parties) to their mega-corporate buddies and foreign governments.

One only has to read the leaked torture memos to see that the comparisons of Bush to Hitler that the Right so decried is actually closer to the truth than we on the Left ever believed.

Democrats and Republicans have each been right and wrong about many different issues through the years, but the majority of each party always believed they were doing what was right for the country. Right now, the people in charge of the Republican Party know what they're doing is harming the country (even their own base), yet they continue lining their pockets with war profits.

Of course, there are people on the Left who are just as bad as those on the Right. One big difference here, though, is that the idiots on the Left don't have the same media presence as Hannity, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, or Savage (nee Wiener).
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Outlaw420 Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
17. Many Thanks
I would like to thank those that gave their opinions on this matter for me.

Also i would like to apologise for any remark that might have offended anyone. I ment no such thing. I am just frustrated with the whole system.

I know there is no perfect system but i also know we can do better than this
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galadrium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Welcome to DU!
What exactly are your beliefs and concerns? I bet they don't involve taking away civil liberties and committing war crimes.

It is good to see you on DU... that is taking a very important step to being a more informed consumer of information.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. The right blindly supports a foreign concept
Edited on Thu Jun-17-04 06:34 PM by mmonk
to American tradition called "pre-emptive war". They have no problem, with no credible connection between 9/11 and the outright conquest of Iraq. They have no problem with the deliberate deception to go to war. They have no problem with torturing prisoners in violation of the Geneva conventions. They have no problems with the erosion of civil rights under the patriot act. They have no problems with secret prisons. They have no problems with violations of separation of powers provided in the constitution. They have no problem with outing CIA agents as political punishment, etc., etc., etc. So some of us who do indeed support the constitution of the US, do find something wrong with committing to an illegal war (in the eyes of the world) and sold to the American people on a lie. And those of us standing up for the constitution, international laws and treaties, the bill of rights, etc., are very, very, very, very, tired of being called traitors of this country because what we oppose about the opposition is their very violation of all these principles. There is my rant about the other side.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
20. Hey, it's David Brooks!
:hi:
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LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
21. The word 'traitor' is pretty dangerous to casually throw around
Edited on Thu Jun-17-04 06:10 PM by RatTerrier
As many of the wingnuts do.

I don't call them 'traitors' (unless I want to directly piss them off). Rather, I prefer to call them 'hypocrites'.

What gives those asshats the right to call someone like, say, Ted Kennedy a traitor? He's been in the senate as long or longer than half the US population today has been alive. Ridiculous!

People who feel the First Amendment only applies to ones with a particular groupthink mentality would fall into this category.

Welcome aboard, Outlaw. You may be shocked at some of the stuff you read here, but let's face it - this is a message board. And I don't recall reading a high-volume message board that doesn't have at least some outlandish material. That goes for boards of all types. DU is not representative af all Democrats/liberals/progressives/etc., and not everyone here is representative of DU. Anybody that thinks that needs a serious reality check. It's a throwing around of opinion and ideas, and the healthy discussion of it. It may get ugly at times, but that's what message boards are really all about.

Hope you stick around. You may sift around some stuff you may roll your eyes at, but you might learn some valuable information too.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Two Party System
It is not satisfying to many people that two parties dominate the system. Campaign financing is the major problem and the way the system doesn't allow for other political parties to engage in power sharing. Now we have one party that is dominating all branches of the Govt. We have a Right Wing Dictatorship financed by the Corporations, mainly the Multi-Corps. Both parties are complicit with the Plutocracy!
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Hypocrits is the term I would use . . .
however, when I want to piss them off, I call the confederate army unpatriotic because the took up arms and shot at and killed soldiers of the United States Army. That makes them mad.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
22. So which unity do you want? Do you really expect
neo-cons to just line up behind the left?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
23. A good reason . . .
Edited on Thu Jun-17-04 06:20 PM by merh
The other side wants me to stand against the government(again I will if I have to) but I have been given no good reason to do either.


You want a good reason, well if the fact that our commander in chief lied about the reasons for invading a weaker nation and then when caught in that lie, he lies again and spouts his love of democracy and liberty while along has totally disregarded the laws of our nation and his administration ignores and/or abuses the civil rights of the average citizen (not just minorities, every tom, dick and harry), then no one can post anything that can provide you with a good reason as to why the administration in place right now has to change.

Look around your community and determine for yourself how many soft targets are within 1 hour of your home. Then realize that they are not secure. This administration has sent our National Guard overseas to fight an unjustifiable war. They have closed and/or will be closing military bases here in the states, their war has resulted in maimed and injured soldiers that will return to no benefits and they are closing VA hospitals across the nation.

I don't know, maybe my priorities are just screwed up. I believe in protecting the citizens at home is a much better policy that making the entire world hate us. Call me crazy. :crazy:
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Outlaw420 Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. As far as Security goes
Read my Signature
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. I don't follow?
:shrug:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
24. on the fence, read the 27 ambassadors, repug and dems
alike, past adn thru out all administrations, adn military that got together yesterday to put out a statement that bush had to go. these are people that worked in all admin and are on both sides of the isle. you should read what thye had to say. no ax to grind
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King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
30. Some of the more famous liberals are traitors.
George Washington, Ben Franklin, Jefferson, John and John Quincy, Nathan, Paul, etc.

That's what really chaps my ass about how they have slimed the word "liberal".

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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
31. The stem cell research issue will bury Bush.
Edited on Thu Jun-17-04 07:00 PM by gulliver
It's simple, and there is no hate involved. Boomers are starting to age, and they are starting to feel vulnerable to Alzheimers, Parkinsons, etc. And all they have to do is look into Bush's stem cell decision. Once they do that, Bush is finished.

Plain and simple. Bush turned promising research that would protect American health and maintain American scientific preeminence and turned it into a divisive issue. Bush lied about stem cell research to get a few votes.

Anyone who looks into why Nancy Reagan is for stem cell research will see Bush and see what he did. He's toast when people figure this out.

If you are worried that you might get Alzheimers or might have to care for a parent or spouse with the disease, thank Bush. He made it a lot more likely, and he sold his position with lies.

There's your moral equivalence!!
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eaprez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
32. Ronald Reagan's Legacy...
....what you describe are the real fruits of the Reagan Legacy.
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TheWizardOfMudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
33. REPUKES HAVE HANDED THE COUNTRY OVER TO CORPORATIONS AND DIVIDED US!
Those are the facts, Jack.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
36. Try to ignore rhetoric if you can.
It's pretty inflated on both sides.

When *facts* are looked at, apart from the namecalling, you'll find your way clear.
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Outlaw420 Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Good Advice


Thanks
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. A few facts
The other side impeached a president over a white lie that had nothing to do with America. Meanwhile this guy has lied repeatedly and Americans have DIED because of those lies.

The deficit is as large as it ever was. Even larger. This just a few years after our side had cut the deficit and produced a surplus.

The other side have been calling us traitors for years and years. It is only recently that we have been callng them traitors because they propose to take away our freedoms with laws such as the Patriot Act.

Welcome to DU, Outlaw. If you really are a Patriot you've made your way home, finally.

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
41. Don't tell me that it doesn't matter....
whether people are dying for a good reason or not, we are at war and we must respect the decisions of those that send them to their death, no matter if they continue to die for next ten years.

You're right, it shouldn't make a difference whether or not you are a Democrat or Republican, but it should make a difference about what our troops are dying for...Was our country being threatened by the Iraqis? If so, I could agree. Convince me.
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