Torture, murder, child rape before moms - kids stuff in comparison

[donhakman]

As Kafkaesque and Orwellian as this fascist inquisition tainted oil war seems, there is a greater genocide far worse than torture and death.
It is so heinous that focusing on torture, rape and murder is a diversion that helps cloak the greater crime.

It is the crime of killing Iraqi children for the next thousands of years. The amount of radioactive waste and depleted uranium that has been spread throughout the country is staggering. One may hear from technocrats that "depleted" uranium is no hazard although they would not want it in their backyard. Nothing is further from the truth. The killing power is spread over centuries and millenia. In a sandy dusty environment the toxins will be uncovered time and again.

Scientists from India calculated that the amount of radiation released in Iraq is about a quarter million times that which was released at Nagasaki. One can measure it in many different ways such as expressing the total weight of the radioactive waste in a number of Chrysler minivans. Between 2,300 and 3,000 at several tons each adds up. IT is clear to see how one fissile bomb is puny in radioactivity compared to all the American Uranium artillery shells and bullets that were used in Iraq.

Even the healthy Iraq children have some genetic damage. When that is passed on and multiplied one will see by the seventh generation an explosion of mutation and death.

Seven generations from now , as W likes to say, we will all be dead, yet all the evil we put in the mud will hatch out and spawn a hideous mutilation of the DNA of a once proud strong people.

Of course the same holds true for us. The radioactive waste neearby that is too expensive to contain and too insidious to handle safely without an eventual accident will eventually bite us.

Our torturers earn about $10,000 a month. The Iraq war has burned through 3-5 Billion dollars a month. With this kind of money, we could have cleaned up our nuclear mess and blessed the next seven generations instead of condemning them to masses of torured flesh for hundreds of years to come.

So my friends, torture murder and rape are the least of the crimes against humanity and the world compared to exploding our nuclear waste overseas. The Bush administration use of DU in Iraq as well as the Clinton military use of DU in Bosnia are slow motion crimes in which everyone concerned (except the soldiers and victims) knew exactly what they were unleashing.

If enough radiation is spread throughout the Muslim world, a Draconian solution to religious and econonomic clashes will be achieved. They will be extinct.


...of course I could be wrong
maybe mutation at this point is a good thing.

Don Hakman
Washington DC.

[gottaB]

1. What about intent?

I think there's a distinction to be made between crimes committed with malicious intent, and crimes committed with indifference to the consequences of one's actions.

If you say war itself is malicious, or that this war is not a just war by any reasonable standards, then I agree. But I won't say rape, murder, torture, extortion, maiming or even shaming and psychological assaults are lesser crimes than the use of depleted uranium, because I strongly feel that the intentions behind these crimes against individual persons are malicious and dehumanizing in the extreme.

[donhakman]

2. the only difference

in our opinions are that of near sightedness verses far sightedness.

[EdGy]

6. gee, let's see, not giving a shit vs. intentionally doing something

I don't really see much difference.

[Spentastic]

3. Well I'm sure Treepig will show up here

But "One may hear from technocrats that "depleted" uranium is no hazard" Isn't true. You will however hear arguments regarding the radiological hazard posed.

I'm afraid that all though you mean well, there is no evidence provided in your post supporting the position that a poisoned generation will result from U.S actions in Iraq.

[Veggie Meathead]

4. There are two ways to resolve this issue.First, it would be

interesting to see if any insurance company would insure any one
near a depleted uranium processing facility or even those who work with it.The second way would be to ask ourselves if our police forces would be permitted to use DU ammunition in American communities.If it
is so harmless, and so effective why not let our police and national gurad units use them in the Continental United States?The answer to these questions, which I already suspect what might be, would be very telling.It means "we" the anointed are playing Russian Roulette with the lives of Iraqis.

[Ripley]

5. Also...

Aren't soldiers in Iraq plagued with some "mystery" illnesses which are probably DU poisoning, but the Pentagon doesn't want to admit it?

[Spentastic]

7. probably DU poisoning

That's science is it? Something's wrong, it's probably the bogeyman?

Gulf war syndrome does need investigation. However, the causes could be numerous.

[Ripley]

8. Do you work in the DU business?

Just curious why you think I called it a "bogeyman." I didn't. I simply recall reading multiple articles about weird illnesses that even doctors said looked like radiation poisoning. I really don't feel like looking for links right now...

Why would you want to investigate Gulf war syndrome but not Iraq war syndrome?

[Veggie Meathead]

9. I know of a study conducted by Canadian and Indian doctors

among Afghan men and women which showed an enormous increase in radioactivity in their urine samples. Unfortunately I do not have a link to it. Would this be due to the use of DU ammunition?If not, we are now into another territory altogether.

[Spentastic]

11. No I'm not

And I fully support all efforts to understand the effects of DU in the environment and upon . I must also apologise for my distinction between Gulf and Iraq war syndrome I believe they both deserve attention.

However I do not support broad hyperbolic statements with little or no basis.

The effects of particlate DU are known and have been documented. Persistency in the environment has been studied. However making the jump from these studies to "a genetic mutilation" seemed very much like employing the Bogeyman to scare people into certain behaviour.

[Ripley]

12. Again, you're putting words in my mouth.

I never made any jump about "a genetic mutilation"...I said I had read reports from military doctors who said soldiers were getting sick with weird respiratory illnesses...

I suppose I could look for a link...this stuff was on DU over the last year or so.

[Spentastic]

14. Too right and fair enough !

Lazy of me. I was parsing the original poster. There's enough hyperbole in there for everyone.

You're right ingesting DU could cause lots of problems. This I believe is known. However, the concentrations required to cause problems are arguable.

Yes we should clean up our own mess. Will there be a humaitarian disaster due to DU use? Maybe, but it's not a done deal as the original poster implies.

[Ripley]

16. Well, I don't know about 7 generations...

but I did find an interesting link: http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/180333p-156685c.html

It seems that European armies are being a lot more cautious with DU since a high number of soldiers have turned up with leukemia.

[seemslikeadream]

31. God bless Scott Ritter - a crime against God, a crime against humanity

God bless Scott Ritter.. the inspection program is irrelevant, the US is going in.. the Gulf War one the largest friendly fire incidents in history.. the acknowledged casualty rate (VA) of Desert Storm, more than 200,000 US soldiers.. unless you physically remove all the DU dust and metal, it will remain.. makes water and food unusable.. what gives the US the right to take poison and throw into someone's backyard, and do nothing to correct it?.. a crime against God, a crime against humanity.. we knowingly contaminated water and soil.. a report.. the Regal Committee.. Dennis: hundreds of alarms were going off.. a total toxic battlefield.. troops still getting sick.. the US use of DU and the careless destruction of Saddam's biological and chemical weapons.. Dennis: the US getting ready to do it again.. Doug: the US casualty rate in Gulf War One over 200,000 US warriors.. if we do it again, many many more.. nobody can justify the use of DU.. where is that child going to come from, to lead us to peace.. if we poison the youth.. Dennis: are you still a patriot?.. Doug: I took an oath to defend the US constitution.. that why I'm working to stop the use of DU.. a military person has an obligation be assure that the orders they are given are just.. about the Declaration of Independence.. sometimes you have to make a committment.. peace begins with me.. DU weapons must be banned.. what if we gave a war and nobody came.. more info: National Gulf War Research Center.. and Trap Rock Peace Center.. the DOD has deleted all our medical research from its website.. the health problems of anyone involved with DU is legendary.. astronomical rates of cancer.
more
http://www.flashpoints.net/index-2002-12-25.html

[Veggie Meathead]

15. Such clinical detachment may be very admirable when you are

working with lab mice.William Shirer in his book RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD REICH describes a "horrible quack" ( his words) who studied the effects high altitudes and extreme cold on Russian prisoners in Germany.Please do not read this section of the book if you have a weak stomach.

But the suppressed moral indignation Bill Shirer brings to bear seems to be utterly lacking in our discourse here.I would rather be considered an American in Bill Shirer's tradition than in George Bush's tradition.

[Spentastic]

17. Don't get me wrong

Personally I'm all for the application of the "don't do it unless you are sure it is safe" school of thought. The effects of DU on poor unfortunates sat in outdated non threatening tanks is enough for me to decry its use. However, claiming horrific effects without proof of those effects is clearly wrong.

[seemslikeadream]

19. claiming horrific effects without proof

Who gives a rat's ass about proof about DU when

EVERY DEATH CREATES NEW ENEMIES
MORE TERRORISTS
MORE DANGER
MORE DEATH
AND REMEMBER...

HE IS JUST GETTING STARTED...

BUSH'S PLAN FOR PEACE
IS THE PEACE OF THE COMMON GRAVE

http://www.bushflash.com/pax.html


Wumpscut
Totmacher

sie ahnten nichts von mir
von meiner wilden gier
doch als du kamst zu mir
da wurde ich ein tier
kein gedanke an danach
als ich dir die knochen brach

tot tot tot ich mache dich tot
tot tot tot von blut alles rot

tot

fuer mein naechstes leben
schoepfe ich neue kraft
ich bin dem toeten ergeben
in der einzelhaft

tot tot tot ich mache dich tot
tot tot tot von blut alles rot
tot tot tot ich mache dich tot
tot tot tot von blut alles rot

ein dahinsichen
von gottes hand
ich kann dich riechen
und das denken verschwand

tot tot tot tot tot tot tot ich mache dich tot
tot tot tot von blut alles rot tot tot tot tot

ich mache dich tot ich mache dich tot
ich mache dich tot ich mache dich tot

sag mir was du willst
dass du meine sehnsucht stillst
ich mache dich tot fuer immerdar
von blut alles rot auf gottes altar

tot tot tot ich mache dich tot
tot tot tot von blut alles rot

ich mache dich tot fuer immerdar
ich mache dich tot glaub mir es ist wahr
ich mache dich tot fuer immerdar
ich mache dich tot auf gottes altar


TRANSLATION

Wumpscut - Deadmaker

They didn't expect me
never expected my wild lust
I turned into an animal
No thought about afterwards
When I broke your bones

Dead, dead, dead I make you dead
Dead, dead, dead stained from blood so red

Dead

For my next life (life after death in the religious sense)
I get the power I need
I’m a slave to the killing
In solitary confinement

("einzelhaft" (solitary confinment) has become part of the german vocabulary after the terrorist attacks of the Red Army Fraction during the 70's. It's used for people in prison, who are put into complete isolation not just from other people, but from all kinds of information. It's what might be known in the US as "sensual deprivation", a kind of torture-technique to destroy people's self.)

Dead, dead, dead I make you dead
Dead, dead, dead stained from blood so red
Dead, dead, dead I make you dead
Dead, dead, dead stained from blood so red

Wasting away
By God’s hand
I can smell you
And my thought disappeared

Dead, dead, dead I make you dead
Dead, dead, dead stained from blood so red
Dead, dead, dead, dead

I make you dead I make you dead
I make you dead I make you dead

Tell me what you want
That you fill my longing (that you satisfy my desire)
I make you dead for evermore
God’s altar stained from blood so red

Dead, dead, dead I make you dead
Dead, dead, dead stained from blood so red

I make you dead for evermore
I make you dead believe me its true
I make you dead for evermore
I make you dead on God’s altar

[seemslikeadream]

30. broad hyperbolic statements

EXTREME BIRTH DEFORMITIES
HOME PAGE
"Unborn children of the region being asked to pay the highest price, the integrity of their DNA."

- Ross B. Mirkarimi, The Arms Control Research Centre, from his report: ‘The Environmental and Human Health Impacts of the Gulf Region with Special Reference to Iraq.’ May 1992

--------------------------------------------------------

I have recently received large numbers of photographs of horrendous birth deformities that are being experienced in Iraq. I have not, quite frankly, ever seen anything like them. I urge you to copy this page / these pictures and circulate them as widely as possible.

In an act of stark cruelty, the US dominated Sanctions Committee refuses to permit Iraq to import the clean-up equipment that they desperately need to decontaminate their country of the Depleted Uranium ammunition that the US fired at them. Approximately 315 tons of DU dust was left by the use of this ammunition.The Sanctions Committee also refuses to allow the mass importation of anti-cancer treatments, which contain trace amounts of radio-isotopes, on the grounds that these constitute '...nuclear materials..'

The majority of the pictures were supplied to me by a source who prefers to remain anonymous at the current time. I was unable to acquire either original negatives, or prints from negatives. They arrived in the form of colour A4 copies. I scanned them into Photoshop and attempted to clean and sharpen them as best I could. There has not, and I repeat not, been any digital alteration other than the cleaning and sharpening process. No text documentation arrived with the pictures, so I have described them as accurately as I can. It is my understanding that the photographs were taken from 1998 onwards. I would be grateful to anyone who could potentially supply me with further information about these types of deformities; medical terms for them, etc.

Additional pictures were taken by Dr. Siegwart Horst-Gunther, President of the International Yellow Cross. Most appeared in his 1996 book "URANIUM PROJECTILES - SEVERELY MAIMED SOLDIERS, DEFORMED BABIES, DYING CHILDREN" (Published by AHRIMAN - Verlag, ISBN: 3-89484-805-7). The book is a documentary record of DU ammunition after-effects, and they were taken between 1993 and 1995. Dr. Gunther also supplied me with additional photographs from his unpublished collection, some of which feature the birth deformities being experienced by Western Gulf war veterans' children. I have asked Dr. Gunther's permission for his pictures to be treated as 'Public Domain' and copyright free. He has agreed and you may reproduce them as you see fit.

more
http://www.web-light.nl/VISIE/extremedeformities.html

[Spentastic]

32. Interesting

Birth deformities = DU.

Evidence = Photos with no analysis.

Whilst compelling this does not constitute scientific evidence.

I have already conceded that particulate DU is hazardous and should be dealt with.

What's your point again?

[seemslikeadream]

41. Evidence = Photos with no analysis - I guess you don't read links?

n/t

[Veggie Meathead]

10. You have no right to talk about bogeymen unless you are willing

to expose your own children to these "harmless" ammo.Even if these
mystery ailments cannot be connected to DU, what right does the US have to expose foreign nationals to this material when it would not dare to expose our own citizens to this material?

I suggest mothers in our DU forum make their views known.Men like myself are incapable of understanding the torment of mothers when they see mysterious ailments follow in the wake of the American expedition in Iraq.

[Spentastic]

13. Do you fly?

Then you're exposing yourself to DU. Do you have X-Rays? DU again. DU is used all over the place due to it's high density.

How many more times? I support research into the effects of particulate DU spread due to use of weapons. I do not support statements without basis in fact.

[Veggie Meathead]

18. As a scientist myself ,I can tell you even with low

intensity radiation, the damage to our tissues is cumulative.That means continuous exposure to these socalled nonlethal dosages over several years and even several generations would accumulate and cause
"genetic mutations".

In cases like this the burden of proof should not fall on the victims.It is for people like you who think in clinical terms to prove that these materials are harmless.This is very similar to the
issue of genetically modified crops.The European Union has banned the use of GM grains even though there is currently no evidence to suggest that they would prove harmful.The simple fact of the matter is genetic mutations are hard to evaluate within one or two lifetimes.
Prudence alone should dictate that we be very careful in allowing mad
politicians or scientists to rule the roost. History shows time and again that common people are the wise ones and not people armed with degrees.

[Spentastic]

20. I fucking give up

If you're a scientist then I'm Tom Bombadil.

You have a hypothesis. Environmental DU will cause genetic mutation. Now what would scientific method dictate you do to examine your hypothesis? Would there be experiments? Peer reviewed work? Would you expect me just to believe a claim because someone says so?

Now you won't find me disagreeing with anything in your second paragraph. However there is a huge difference between urging caution when using a possibly hazardous material to claiming that material is responsible for a 7th generation mutation fest. It reminds me of reefer madness. Why is hyperbole O.K from the left and not the right?

[seemslikeadream]

23. Good idea. Give it up to the HIGHWAY OF DEATH

THANKS OCTAFISH FOR THE REMINDER - 13 YEARS AGO!


HIGHWAY OF DEATH

Even if he worked for Saddam, there was no reason to do that to that poor man. Going by the size of the dent to the skull, the force of the hit to the back of the head probably separated the man's brain from the brain stem. That is not barbarian. These operatives of the BFEE are NAZIs.

In the US, most people have a quality of life pretty far removed from the level of violence experienced by the people of Iraq. It's not just today or this year or this administration. Iraq has been under a state of siege and economic sanction for more than 14 years. The human misery caused to the people of Iraq -- from Kurds to Chaldeans to Shia to Sunni -- is unbelievable. The human toll is in the tens of thousands per year from lack of food and medicine.

The only reason I knew this is while working on an unrelated matter, I had the good fortune of meeting a woman who was organizing relief workers to help stop the craziness. Her story has not been covered by the local papers for 13 years.

Here's another forgotten story. Poppy Bush, Dick Cheney, Colin Powell, Brent Scowcroft and Barry McCafferty don't wnat people to think too much about:

Photo Credit: © 1991 Kenneth Jarecke / Contact Press Images)


WAR CRIMES
A Report on United States War Crimes Against Iraq to the Commission of Inquiry for the International War Crimes Tribunal

by Ramsey Clark and Others

Incinerated body of an Iraqi soldier on the "Highway of Death," a name the press has given to the road from Mutlaa, Kuwait, to Basra, Iraq. U.S. planes immobilized the convoy by disabling vehicles at its front and rear, then bombing and straffing the resulting traffic jam for hours. More than 2,000 vehicles and tens of thousands of charred and dismembered bodies littered the sixty miles of highway. The clear rapid incineration of the human being suggests the use of napalm, phosphorus, or other incindiary bombs. These are anti-personnel weapons outlawed under the 1977 Geneva Protocols. This massive attack occurred after Saddam Hussein announced a complete troop withdrawl from Kuwait in compliance with UN Resolution 660. Such a massacre of withdrawing Iraqi soldiers violates the Geneva Convention of 1949, common article 3, which outlaws the killing of soldiers who "are out of combat." There are, in addition, strong indications that many of those killed were Palestinian and Kuwaiti civilians trying to escape the impending seige of Kuwait City and the return of Kuwaiti armed forces. No attempt was made by U.S. military command to distinguish between military personnel and civilians on the "highway of death." The whole intent of international law with regard to war is to prevent just this sort of indescriminate and excessive use of force.

"It has never happened in history that a nation that has won a war has been held accountable for atrocities committed in preparing for and waging that war. We intend to make this one different. What took place was the use of technological material to destroy a defenseless country. From 125,000 to 300,000 people were killed... We recognize our role in history is to bring the transgressors to justice." Ramsey Clark

Next » Preface

SOURCE:

http://deoxy.org/wc/warcrime.htm

[Suspicious]

56. Link to CBC video of the Highway of Death,

where we witness, among other horrors, American soldiers looting the wreckage. :mad:

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-593-3127/conflict_war/gulf_war/clip15#

The CBC coverage seems to try to skate around the subject of civilians being killed (though they do include in their footage of the debris some brightly colored clothing and a doll).

The "Highway of Death" spans the roadway from Mutlaa, Kuwait, to Basra, Iraq. Human rights groups cite the attack as a war crime of great magnitude — the deliberate bombing of a stretch of highway where fleeing Iraqi soldiers were stuck in a frenzied traffic jam. The United States, however, maintains that few Iraqi soldiers were found in the wreckage.

[seemslikeadream]

21. Why should you be sweatin' the small stuff?

WHILE I SIT HERE TRYING TO THINK OF THINGS TO SAY



SOMEONE LIES BLEEDING IN A FIELD SOMEWHERE



SO IT WOULD SEEM WE'VE STILL GOT A LONG LONG WAY TO GO



I'VE SEEN ALL I WANNA SEE TODAY



WHILE I SIT HERE TRYING TO MOVE YOU ANYWAY I CAN



SOMEONE'S SON LIES DEAD IN A GUTTER SOMEWHERE



AND IT WOULD SEEM THAT WE'VE GOT A LONG LONG WAY TO GO



BUT I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE



SWITCH IT OFF IT WILL GO AWAY



TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO



SWITCH IT OFF OR LOOK AWAY



WHILE I SIT AND WE TALK AND TALK AND WE TALK SOME MORE



SOMEONE'S LOVED ONE'S HEART STOPS BEATING IN A STREET SOMEWHERE



SO IT WOULD SEEM WE'VE STILL GOT A LONG LONG WAY TO GO, I KNOW



I'VE HEARD ALL I WANNA HEAR TODAY



TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO (TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO)



SWITCH IT OFF IT WILL GO AWAY (SWITCH IT OFF IT WILL GO AWAY)



TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO (TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO)



SWITCH IT OFF OR LOOK AWAY (SWITCH IT OFF OR LOOK AWAY)



SWITCH IT OFF



SWITCH IT OFF



SWITCH IT OFF



SWITCH IT OFF



SWITCH IT OFF



TURN IT OFF



thanks phil collins for the words
my heart to the people of Haiti

[Spentastic]

22. We are now

Truly in the world of the non sequiteur. I congratulate you on your ability to type in capital letters and hyperlink to pictures but what on earth has this got to do with the topic at hand?

[seemslikeadream]

24. topic at hand is DEATH!

nice that you can ignore the photos, explains alot.

[Spentastic]

25. Er? No.

It's the effects of environmental DU.

Sorry and all that, I think you wanted the Death thread.

[seemslikeadream]

26. It's the effects of environmental DU - Torture, murder, child rape

has nothing to do with death, I see. Death is what this administration is all about.

Torture, murder, child rape before moms that the title of the thread. Last time I checked murder meant death.

Who changed the subject?

[donsu]

35. Spentastic, you are being perverse, I wonder why

nt

[bobbieinok]

39. I first heard abt DU from MMalloy when he was still at WLS

He had an interview with the military dr who investigated the effects of DU (I think the report was classified and the dr was fired).

My brother in the reserves knew abt DU; that made/makes me wonder how widespread the knowledge abt this is in the military??

Also someone in the discussion said there were plans to build kitchen appliances containing some DU.

[seemslikeadream]

27. Press Action Hero of the Week: KATHY KELLY

Press Action Hero of the Week: KATHY KELLY


Even if you possess only the slightest hope of someday witnessing the breakdown of the U.S. war machine or a reduction in U.S. military atrocities overseas, you’d be hard-pressed not to admire the work of Kathy Kelly?

During the last couple of decades, Kelly, co-founder of Voices in the Wilderness, has performed many admirable deeds, including meeting head-on the U.S. government’s possession of weapons of mass destruction and challenging its acts of militarism in Central America, Iraq and elsewhere around the world. Kelly is active in the Catholic Worker movement and has sought to counteract U.S. government horrors by trying to help its victims. Meanwhile, as a pacifist and war tax refuser, Kelly has bravely refused payment of all federal income tax for 23 years.

In the course of her work, especially since the founding of Voices in the Wilderness in 1996, Kelly has found herself in various skirmishes with state authorities. As she has discovered, the state does not look kindly on acts of disobedience against its authority, especially effective acts of resistance by people who do not fear the state’s retaliatory potential.

Kelly and other Voices in the Wilderness members were notified of a proposed $163,000 penalty against the organization and were threatened with 12 years in prison for bringing medicine and toys to Iraq in open violation of the United Nations-imposed sanctions on the country from 1991 through 2003. The U.S. government eventually fined the group $50,000, a sum which it has refused to pay.

This week, Kelly once again discovered that when you wage a non-violent campaign against the legitimacy of certain terror-related components of the U.S. government, the state will not hesitate to strike back. Kelly, a three-time Nobel Peace Prize nominee, was sentenced to three months in federal prison on Jan. 26, 2004 for trespassing on the property of the Ft. Benning military base in Columbus, Ga., in November 2003 as a form of protest against the School of the Americas/Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation.

more
http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/hero01302004/

Kathy Kelly Biography

Voices in the Wilderness

Kathy, 50, of Chicago, IL, helped initiate Voices in the Wilderness, a campaign to end the UN/US sanctions against Iraq. For bringing “medicine and toys” to Iraq in open violation of the UN/US sanctions, she and other campaign members were notified of a proposed $163,000 penalty for the organization, threatened with 12 years in prison, and eventually fined $50,000, a sum which they’ve refused to pay. Voices in the Wilderness organized 70 delegations to visit Iraq in the period between 1996 and the beginning of the “Operation Shock and Awe” warfare (March 2003). Kelly has been to Iraq twenty times since January 1996, when the campaign began. In October 2002, she joined Iraq Peace Team members in Baghdad where she and the team maintained a presence throughout the invasion, bombardment and occupation. Kelly left Iraq on April 19, 2003.

During the first two weeks of the Gulf War, she was part of a peace encampment on the Iraq-Saudi border called the Gulf Peace Team. Following evacuation to Amman, Jordan, (February 4, 1991), team members stayed in the region for the next six months to help coordinate medical relief convoys and study teams.

In 1988 she was sentenced to one year in prison for planting corn on nuclear missile silo sites. Kelly served nine months of the sentence in Lexington KY maximum security prison.

Kelly has taught in Chicago area community colleges and high schools since 1974. From 1980 - 1986 she taught at St. Ignatius College Prep (Chicago, IL ) She is active with the Catholic Worker movement and, as a pacifist and war tax refuser, has refused payment of all Federal income tax for 23 years.

Kelly helped organize and participated in nonviolent direct action teams in Haiti (summer of 1994), Bosnia (August, 1993, December, 1992) and Iraq (Gulf Peace Team, 1991). In April of 2002, she was among the first internationals to visit the Jenin camp in the Occupied West Bank. She presently helps coordinate the Voices in the Wilderness campaign.

[seemslikeadream]

28. Phil Berriganlast actions was at the Warfield Air National Guard base in M

Pepperwolf, W A M M and AlliantAction


We pledge to carry on the mission of disarmament that Phil Berrigan left us. One of Phil’s last actions was at the Warfield Air National Guard base in Maryland. In the Plowshares vs. Depleted Uranium action they hammered and poured blood on two A-10 warplanes—the type of aircraft used to drop about 95 percent of the 300 tons of radioactive depleted uranium (DU) left in Iraq after the first Gulf War.

Alliant Techsystems (ATK) is the Department of Defense’s largest supplier of DU munitions. ATK produced over fifteen million shells for the A-10 Warthog. Weekly vigils at Alliant Techsystems in Edina, Minnesota oppose this company’s profit from war.

On April 2, 2003, the Phil Berrigan DU Coalition sponsored a rally and civil disobedience outside ATK’s headquarters. Twenty-eight people were arrested while attempting to deliver a letter to CEO Paul David Miller. The letter questioned the company’s profit from death and destruction. On October 14, at the Hennepin County Courthouse, jury selection begins for the trial of the 28 DU activists.

The issue of depleted uranium affects many people, so activists with many different concerns can rally around it, including environmentalists, human rights workers, veterans, soldiers and their families, and even workers involved in production and clean-up. To learn more about DU and to get involved, please see links below and join us at the trial. Phil’s work goes on...

http://www.worldwidewamm.org/newsletters/2003/1003/du.html

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Spentastic]

33. One again

I've said ingesting DU is a bad idea. How many Iraqis are ingesting DU? Will this translate to the situation that the original poster suggests it will? Furthermore, proof of radiological contamination and effects would be appreciated.

[seemslikeadream]

34. You choose to ignore the proof - warning graphic photos

Severe deformity of arms.
This child was born to a US Gulf veteran.

DU ammunition is now possessed by more than 12 countries, and was used during the NATO led bombing of the former Yugoslavia. Western forces stationed in the region have recently been advised not to drink the local water or eat locally produced food. Yet the British MoD continues to deny any potential risks, stating: "We have not seen any peer-reviewed epidemiological research data to support these claims <...> There are no plans to remove DU-based ammunition from service." (Source: Two letters to me from Simon Wren, Overseas Secretariat, Ministry of Defence, Whitehall, London - 20th May 1999, and 22nd March 2000)

On a more personal level, I have heard stories of visitors to Iraq who spoke with mid-wives there. These mid-wives are purported to have said they no longer look forward to births as.... "We don't know what's going to come out."

The pictures below, which are extremely disturbing, show exactly what does.

Two children with similar deformities of the face.
Dr. Gunther refers to this condition as 'Zyklopie.'

[donhakman]

38. In the original post

I warned you about the technocrats who will belittle the crime of Uranium weapons. Facts without footnotes passes for hyperbole to them.

As bad as the birth defects are now, by the seventh generation they will become ubiquitous.

True it was not my intention to belittle Bush's claim of legal torture but to make a comparison of the vast scope of radioactive crimes that have been committed.

The economic boon to those who sell the uranium waste is two fold.
Instead of having to spend money to isolate it, they make money by selling it.

My congratulations to those who recognize this crime in its fullest and ongoing dreadful ramifications.

[Veggie Meathead]

55. During the Vietnam War, the horrible effects of Agent Orange

were similarly discounted by the US Armed Forces.Two decades later,Agent Orange was irrefutably linked to many forms of cancer,with Admiral Zumwalt's son becoming one of the casualties.

Yet here we are nearly four decades after Vietnam we seem to hesitate
in speaking plainly about the use of DU.As I have said earlier in this thread, the burden of proof should fall squarely on those advocate the use of DU and not the people who are likely to become the victims of DU.

[Tyler Durden]

37. Wait a few years.

I haven't died yet from the times 3 overload I got on "Broken Arrow" teams and on Radiation Oncology wards in the Navy Hospital Corps, but the chances are better than 50/50 that I will eventually.

How much do you know about inhalation of low level Alpha/Gamma emitters? DU is throwing out about 100 times the dose you'd get from inhaled Radon in a house with a Radon hazard: it is believed to be a major contributor to non-smoking related lung cancer.

Your body treats DU like Lead or any other heavy metal, and stores it in bone, bone marrow, and gonads, not to mention debris in the lungs, where it just hangs around, knocking amino acids off DNA with alpha particles and gamma rays. By the way, this insight comes courtesy of 2 years Nuclear Engineering, and Department of Defense training and certification which I had in the Navy, along with my Top Secret clearance.

[Spentastic]

43. Self edit

You want to insinuate, how about being brave enough to say it? You want to call me a racist do it. You want to insinuate and not break the rules, you're a coward.

I do not agree with you, But until now I've not attacked you and to the other people's credit on this thread neither have they attacked me. Just you

[seemslikeadream]

46. It was nothing more than a play on that capital thing you brought up

"Whatever" is in the mind of the beholder. I say "keep your head" alot. I am sorry if I offend you, I apologize. I meant no such thing. Why in the world would I call you a racist?

No where here have I gotten personal with you.

[Spentastic]

49. Hey that's pretty fair of you

And one good turn deserves another.I'm actually at home now just plowing through your links.

I'm open to persuasion on most topics and perhaps I've not got this one right. I'm just very wary of extreme claims.

Sorry for being an arse.

[seemslikeadream]

54. I know Kathy Kelly.

If you read nothing else look into what she has been doing. I believe you may think differently about some things. Thanks for accepting my apology.

[Tyler Durden]

36. It's all right Don: this is a hard topic for the "layman."

That's why the Bushites are getting away with this "slow murder."

I think you need a working knowledge of inhaled low-level alpha/gamma emitters; Hell, you can't even get people to test their houses for RADON, how the fuck are you going to get them to care about radiation poisoning in Iraq?

Maybe this and other Nuclear Waste oriented hazards are T. S. Elliot's "whimper" that we will end with.

[redowl]

40. I agree- the truth is hard to face

but the truth is clear or certainly will become clear enough over the years. We are not only doing it to the Iraqis but to the whole damn world. We are all connected on this big ball and what is put into the atmosphere one place eventually gets to us all.

Kind of like pissing in a swimming pool-or a "designated smoking area"- don't ya just LOVE that one?

we are so fu*ked

[Spentastic]

44. No, that's the whole point

One that I've conceded several times. However, there' a huge difference between the possible affects of DU exposure in Iraq and the nightmare scenario outlined in the initial post. One would assume that DU was targeted at military targets rather than spread willy nilly aroud Iraq. Would it not follow that local effects would be expected if no remedial action was taken? At what concentration does dust become an issue? Is it one speck or is more needed? These are reasonable questions.


Would you agree that the comparison between weight of DU and radiological danger posed thereby suggested by the initial poster is in fact hyperbole?

[redqueen]

45. Hyperbole?

Are you freaking kidding me?

You have seen for yourself the evidence (children born to soldiers from Gulf War have more incidence of deformity), but you choose to nitpick over the examples someone uses in a post?

Words fail me.

:puke:

[Spentastic]

47. Jesus Christ

Seen any witches lately?

If I gave you a block of DU what would you do?

Many things were injected into veterans during the gulf war. Are they the cause of mutations? They look somewhat like thaylidomide victims to me.

Nope it's DU because some people say it is.

[redqueen]

48. I'll just hope

that this display is due to you not reading much about this subject on your own time.

:puke: again.

[Spentastic]

50. O.K

I'm doing it now.

Fair enough?

[redqueen]

51. Very much so

Apologies if I was too brusque. Something about innocents being harmed due to the machinations of evil bastards (using our tax money, no less) that sticks in my craw something fierce.

[Spentastic]

52. That's totally fair

And no apology needed.

Even at this early stage it looks like I may have internalised some NATO propaganda rubbish.

As usual on the surface it all looks pretty good but I'm ashamed to admit that this looks to murky to be reasonable.

[MadHound]

53. Hi Spen, I heading off work in a couple of minutes

So I don't have time to go into great detail here. I work at a nuke plant, and handle DU on a daily basis. Let me tell that in solid form, DU is relatively benign. A low level Alpha and Beta emitter, the radiation it gives off cannot penatrate your skin.

However, the trouble with DU over in Iraq, or in any military situations, is that the benign block of DU is turned into a fine, talcumn like powder that is easily inhaled or ingested. It is blown about the countryside and gets everywhere. Once a heavy metal emitter is in your system you have serious problems, both from radiation and heavy metal poisoning. It is also notoriously hard to get out of your system. And with a half life of hundreds of thousand of years, it is the gift that keeps on giving. Embryonic mutations are certainly a possiblity, along with serious respitory illnesses, radiation and heavy metal poisoning. And it is a cumulative problem also, the more you inhale/ingest, the sicker you get.

I would give you some more information friend, but it is time for me to go, and I have a lawn to mow, so perhaps I will pick this up later if I have time.

[Joanne98]

42. Typical "Corporate Culture" thinking

short-term gain= long-term DISASTER. They don't care though. Sha la la la la la Live for todaaaaaaaaay. I just care about myself. Me me me me me. That's all that matters don't ya know.......