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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 11:58 AM
Original message
Let's be honest about Ronald Reagan....
I've been reading all the posts about what a terrible man Reagan was, etc., and I feel I need to at least lay out my true opinion.
I'm a Democrat who never voted for the man; while he was in office, I suffered a great deal from Republicans who gloated. However, in contrast with President Bush I and II, he was superior.
I think the worst thing about him was, he was surrounded by neocons who put him into policy stances that were bad for the people. But he was by no means as bad as our current president.
I liked the fact he was a good speaker; and I liked that he was an astrology buff. These things salvaged him a little, in my opinion.
I think he was a terribly ineffective father, like a lot of fathers, my own included. His wife, Nancy, adored him, though; we have to give him that.
Also, the man is dead. Can we not separate our political opinions from his eulogy? Can we not speak fondly of the dead, for at least a while?
I will say that during his presidency, I made more money than I've made since. This may be a coincidence; but it is truth.
Sorry if I'm rambling here, but we seem to be having an all one-sided discussion about him. Nobody is all bad, or all good. There are shades of each in all of us.

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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. You're a week late with this one
Sorry, gloves off for good from here to eternity. Reagan sucked. Flames incoming.
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muchacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
31. War criminal
Aside from Reagan the man I would like to point out a few facts about Reagan the president:

The firing of the air traffic controllers, winnable nuclear war, recallable nuclear missiles, trees that cause pollution, Elliott Abrams lying to Congress, ketchup as a vegetable, colluding with Guatemalan thugs, pardons for F.B.I. lawbreakers, voodoo economics, budget deficits, toasts to Ferdinand Marcos, public housing cutbacks, redbaiting the nuclear freeze movement, James Watt.

Getting cozy with Argentine fascist generals, tax credits for segregated schools, disinformation campaigns, "homeless by choice," Manuel Noriega, falling wages, the HUD scandal, air raids on Libya, "constructive engagement" with apartheid South Africa, United States Information Agency blacklists of liberal speakers, attacks on OSHA and workplace safety, the invasion of Grenada, assassination manuals, Nancy's astrologer.

Drug tests, lie detector tests, Fawn Hall, female appointees (8 percent), mining harbors, the S&L scandal, 239 dead U.S. troops in Beirut, Al Haig "in control," silence on AIDS, food-stamp reductions, Debategate, White House shredding, Jonas Savimbi, tax cuts for the rich, "mistakes were made."

Michael Deaver's conviction for influence peddling, Lyn Nofziger's conviction for influence peddling, Caspar Weinberger's five-count indictment, Ed Meese ("You don't have many suspects who are innocent of a crime"), Donald Regan (women don't "understand throw-weights"), education cuts, massacres in El Salvador.

"The bombing begins in five minutes," $640 Pentagon toilet seats, African-American judicial appointees (1.9 percent), Reader's Digest, C.I.A.-sponsored car-bombing in Lebanon (more than eighty civilians killed), 200 officials accused of wrongdoing, William Casey, Iran/contra. "Facts are stupid things," three-by-five cards, the MX missile, Bitburg, S.D.I., Robert Bork, naps, Teflon.

from: http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18874

Bottom line, the poor suffered under this man and he conspired with known dictators and terrorist. He should have died in jail.

Fuck his sunny disposition...
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ!!!
The man is responsible for THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of deaths!

Yet, we have to praise him for being better than Bushwa??

You had your whole week of praising the (#+(+@(!!! Isn't that ENOUGH?

Isn't there any longer any room for TRUTH in this country?

I don't believe it........ either the Dems have truly sought refuge under a giant rock, or .........

Kanary
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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. The reaction of some in DU against RR reminds me of Germany after the
Edited on Sun Jun-13-04 12:09 PM by LittleApple81
second war. I saw a joke about it that said Himmler had gone to all the voting places personally and impersonated millions of Germans to vote for Hitler...because you could not find another ONE who admitting voting forhim after the war.
I would not have voted for him, but I could not vote at that time SO I AM SAFE.
But RR won a majority of the states for his second term. Landslide, didn't they say? Where did all those votes come from?
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
48. There Was Some Suspicous Stuff There Too
Not to swing the election in that case, but to avoid retribution.

In 1972, Massachussetts was the only state to go for McGovern, and the
state's economy was savaged by Nixon's revenge upon it.

In 1980, the state was going for Carter, who had already conceded the election.
"Late Returns" and an unbelievable 20% vote for Anderson flipped the state into the Reagan column late on election night.
An obvious fix, but nobody bitched about it because it certainly
didn't affect who got in the White House and we couldn't afford a replay of 1973.
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. That is who I voted for Anderson
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SoDesuKa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. One-Sided Discussion
Did you happen to hear anybody on a major network mention that Reagan avoided impeachment for Iran Contra by playing dumb? In the interest of historical fairness, something like that would have to be mentioned.

I also do not believe it's disrespectful to mention things like this. He wasn't everybody's beloved uncle. He was the president.
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oldcoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
72. Thank you for mentioning the Iran-Contra scandal
and for mentioning the fact that Reagan was never punished for this mess. The Iran-Contra scandal is the main reason that I will never forgive Ronald Reagan. I cannot forgive the fact that Reagan violated his constitutional duty when he decided to ignore federal law by secretly arming the Contras.

I also cannot forgive him for arming a nation that was hostile to the United States at the time. During the 1980s, it was not unusual to turn on the news and see demonstrators in Iran burning the American flag. Generally, it is not a good idea to arm your enemies. Indeed, we are lucky that Iran did not later use those weapons against the United States. I also suspect that if a private citizen attempted to do what Reagan did, he or she could have been tried for treason.

I actually might feel differently about Reagan if he had actually been held accountable for the Iran-Contra scandal. Ideally, he should have spent some time in prison for his crime. However, I would have been satisfied if Congress impeached him (like Clinton) or if he had resigned in disgrace (like Nixon). But as you point out, he was able get away with his role in the Iran-Contra scandal by playing stupid. As far as I am concerned, he has gotten enough breaks.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. OK, here's me being honest about Reagan
Planet Reagan
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Perspective

Monday 07 June 2004

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/060704A.shtml

Buffalo Bill's
defunct
who used to
ride a watersmooth-silver
stallion
and break onetwothreefourfive pigeonsjustlikethat
Jesus
he was a handsome man
and what i want to know is
how do you like your blueeyed boy
Mister Death

- e.e. cummings, "Buffalo Bill's Defunct"


Ronald Reagan is dead now, and everyone is being nice to him. In every aspect, this is appropriate. He was a husband and a father, a beloved member of a family, and he will be missed by those he was close to. His death was long, slow and agonizing because of the Alzheimer's Disease which ruined him, one drop of lucidity at a time. My grandmother died ten years ago almost to the day because of this disease, and this disease took ten years to do its dirty, filthy, wretched work on her.

The dignity and candor of Reagan's farewell letter to the American people was as magnificent a departure from public life as any that has been seen in our history, but the ugly truth of his illness was that he lived on, and on, and on. His family and friends watched as he faded from the world of the real, as the simple dignity afforded to all life collapsed like loose sand behind his ever more vacant eyes. Only those who have seen Alzheimer's Disease invade a mind can know the truth of this. It is a cursed way to die.

In this mourning space, however, there must be room made for the truth. Writer Edward Abbey once said, "The sneakiest form of literary subtlety, in a corrupt society, is to speak the plain truth. The critics will not understand you; the public will not believe you; your fellow writers will shake their heads."

The truth is straightforward: Virtually every significant problem facing the American people today can be traced back to the policies and people that came from the Reagan administration. It is a laundry list of ills, woes and disasters that has all of us, once again, staring apocalypse in the eye.

How can this be? The television says Ronald Reagan was one of the most beloved Presidents of the 20th century. He won two national elections, the second by a margin so overwhelming that all future landslides will be judged by the high-water mark he achieved against Walter Mondale. How can a man so universally respected have played a hand in the evils which corrupt our days?

The answer lies in the reality of the corrupt society Abbey spoke of. Our corruption is the absolute triumph of image over reality, of flash over substance, of the pervasive need within most Americans to believe in a happy-face version of the nation they call home, and to spurn the reality of our estate as unpatriotic. Ronald Reagan was, and will always be, the undisputed heavyweight champion of salesmen in this regard.

Reagan was able, by virtue of his towering talents in this arena, to sell to the American people a flood of poisonous policies. He made Americans feel good about acting against their own best interests. He sold the American people a lemon, and they drive it to this day as if it was a Cadillac. It isn't the lies that kill us, but the myths, and Ronald Reagan was the greatest myth-maker we are ever likely to see.

Mainstream media journalism today is a shameful joke because of Reagan's deregulation policies. Once upon a time, the Fairness Doctrine ensured that the information we receive - information vital to the ability of the people to govern in the manner intended - came from a wide variety of sources and perspectives. Reagan's policies annihilated the Fairness Doctrine, opening the door for a few mega-corporations to gather journalism unto themselves. Today, Reagan's old bosses at General Electric own three of the most-watched news channels. This company profits from every war we fight, but somehow is trusted to tell the truths of war. Thus, the myths are sold to us.

The deregulation policies of Ronald Reagan did not just deliver journalism to these massive corporations, but handed virtually every facet of our lives into the hands of this privileged few. The air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat are all tainted because Reagan battered down every environmental regulation he came across so corporations could improve their bottom line. Our leaders are wholly-owned subsidiaries of the corporations that were made all-powerful by Reagan's deregulation craze. The Savings and Loan scandal of Reagan's time, which cost the American people hundreds of billions of dollars, is but one example of Reagan's decision that the foxes would be fine guards in the henhouse.

Ronald Reagan believed in small government, despite the fact that he grew government massively during his time. Social programs which protected the weakest of our citizens were gutted by Reagan's policies, delivering millions into despair. Reagan was able to do this by caricaturing the "welfare queen," who punched out babies by the barnload, who drove the flashy car bought with your tax dollars, who refused to work because she didn't have to. This was a vicious, racist lie, one result of which was the decimation of a generation by crack cocaine. The urban poor were left to rot because Ronald Reagan believed in 'self-sufficiency.'

Because Ronald Reagan could not be bothered to fund research into 'gay cancer,' the AIDS virus was allowed to carve out a comfortable home in America. The aftershocks from this callous disregard for people whose homosexuality was deemed evil by religious conservatives cannot be overstated. Beyond the graves of those who died from a disease which was allowed to burn unchecked, there are generations of Americans today living with the subconscious idea that sex equals death.

The veneer of honor and respect painted across the legacy of Ronald Reagan is itself a myth of biblical proportions. The coverage proffered today of the Reagan legacy seldom mentions impropriety until the Iran/Contra scandal appears on the administration timeline. This sin of omission is vast. By the end of his term in office, some 138 Reagan administration officials had been convicted, indicted or investigated for misconduct and/or criminal activities.

Some of the names on this disgraceful roll-call: Oliver North, John Poindexter, Richard Secord, Casper Weinberger, Elliott Abrams, Robert C. McFarlane, Michael Deaver, E. Bob Wallach, James Watt, Alan D. Fiers, Clair George, Duane R. Clarridge, Anne Gorscuh Burford, Rita Lavelle, Richard Allen, Richard Beggs, Guy Flake, Louis Glutfrida, Edwin Gray, Max Hugel, Carlos Campbell, John Fedders, Arthur Hayes, J. Lynn Helms, Marjory Mecklenburg, Robert Nimmo, J. William Petro, Thomas C. Reed, Emanuel Savas, Charles Wick. Many of these names are lost to history, but more than a few of them are still with us today, 'rehabilitated' by the administration of George W. Bush.

Ronald Reagan actively supported the regimes of the worst people ever to walk the earth. Names like Marcos, Duarte, Rios Mont and Duvalier reek of blood and corruption, yet were embraced by the Reagan administration with passionate intensity. The ground of many nations is salted with the bones of those murdered by brutal rulers who called Reagan a friend. Who can forget his support of those in South Africa who believed apartheid was the proper way to run a civilized society?

One dictator in particular looms large across our landscape. Saddam Hussein was a creation of Ronald Reagan. The Reagan administration supported the Hussein regime despite his incredible record of atrocity. The Reagan administration gave Hussein intelligence information which helped the Iraqi military use their chemical weapons on the battlefield against Iran to great effect. The deadly bacterial agents sent to Iraq during the Reagan administration are a laundry list of horrors.

The Reagan administration sent an emissary named Donald Rumsfeld to Iraq to shake Saddam Hussein's hand and assure him that, despite public American condemnation of the use of those chemical weapons, the Reagan administration still considered him a welcome friend and ally. This happened while the Reagan administration was selling weapons to Iran, a nation notorious for its support of international terrorism, in secret and in violation of scores of laws.

Another name on Ronald Reagan's roll call is that of Osama bin Laden. The Reagan administration believed it a bully idea to organize an army of Islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan to fight the Soviet Union. bin Laden became the spiritual leader of this action. Throughout the entirety of Reagan's term, bin Laden and his people were armed, funded and trained by the United States. Reagan helped teach Osama bin Laden the lesson he lives by today, that it is possible to bring a superpower to its knees. bin Laden believes this because he has done it once before, thanks to the dedicated help of Ronald Reagan.

In 1998, two American embassies in Africa were blasted into rubble by Osama bin Laden, who used the Semtex sent to Afghanistan by the Reagan administration to do the job. In 2001, Osama bin Laden thrust a dagger into the heart of the United States, using men who became skilled at the art of terrorism with the help of Ronald Reagan. Today, there are 827 American soldiers and over 10,000 civilians who have died in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, a war that came to be because Reagan helped manufacture both Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden.

How much of this can be truthfully laid at the feet of Ronald Reagan? It depends on who you ask. Those who worship Reagan see him as the man in charge, the man who defeated Soviet communism, the man whose vision and charisma made Americans feel good about themselves after Vietnam and the malaise of the 1970s. Those who despise Reagan see him as nothing more than a pitch-man for corporate raiders, the man who allowed greed to become a virtue, the man who smiled vapidly while allowing his officials to run the government for him.

In the final analysis, however, the legacy of Ronald Reagan - whether he had an active hand in its formulation, or was merely along for the ride - is beyond dispute. His famous question, "Are you better off now than you were four years ago?" is easy to answer. We are not better off than we were four years ago, or eight years ago, or twelve, or twenty. We are a badly damaged state, ruled today by a man who subsists off Reagan's most corrosive final gift to us all: It is the image that matters, and be damned to the truth.
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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Thank you, Will.
that was about as honest as I've seen and it says everything I feel, both the good and the bad.
I appreciate your sharing this with me on this thread.
One of the reasons I'm having a rough time with all this is, my father died of Parkinson's Disease after 12 years of illness; he had the dementia form of the disease, and it was horrible.
My mother, after he died, was adrift. This was 1988. She is now with another man, who unfortunately also has Parkinson's Disease.
Fate, I suppose.
I appreciate your comments about the disease. This is the main issue.
I also agree with your comments regarding his political life.
I'm no fan of Reagan, don't get me wrong.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:12 PM
Original message
You GO, Schatz!
Prosit! :toast:
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Booster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Will, your Planet Reagan is by far.....
the best thing written on Reagan that I have read. It is exactly on point without being vile. I really do think if you wrote for Kerry, it would be a far better race; with your words and just a little fire in his belly, Kerry could do wonders in the election. He really does need your help - you're the best. (A gushing fan, I admit.)
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. I said I would wait until he was buried...he's buried..let's be honest
Edited on Sun Jun-13-04 12:08 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
Had there been NO Ronald Reagan, there would have been no Bush 1 and Bush 2...he laid the groundwork for the horrible policy we are seeing today...Ronald Reagan's admin practiced a very dangerous foreign policy known as BRINKMANSHIP which means exactly what it invokes....the fact that it turned out insofar as the cold war is concerned is as much a healthy accident as anything...it COULD have turned out just as horribly as it is turning out now in the war on terror since GWB is ALSO practicing BRINKMANSHIP as taught by the James Baker Center at Rice University.

I'm not going to turn this post into a novel, but read the Center For Defense Information's positions about the arms build up during the cold war.

Ronald Reagan ALSO set the pace for the mergers and concentration of wealth we have seen that has NOT been good for the VAST majority of Americans and is on a dangerous and deadly pace on a global scale now. Ronald Reagan, by doing this allowed for the HUGE OBSCENE amounts of money that have gone into right wing think tanks and literally taken over our culture via a multi pronged attack.

One thing I will concede is that virtually ALL president's from the second half of the last century can be considered mass murderers with hegemonistic pursuits...Ronald Reagan just made it an art form.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
80. Had there been no Reagan
There may have been a Bush I in 80 instead of 88.

Remember Reagan beat Bush in the primaries, and Carter thought Reagan would be the one who would be easier to beat.

Why do you think Bush wouldn't have beaten Carter in 80? I think he probably would have.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #80
90. I disagree. Reagan largely got in via his personal charm
and one liners...I don't think GHWB would have connected any better in 80 than he did in 92...in 88 he had the benefit of being from an incumbent admin with a weak opponent....oh...and dirty tricks
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beyurslf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. Praise Reagan because he wasn't as bad as Bush is?
Isn't that saying our torture chambers in Iraq are okay because they aren't as bad Saddam's?

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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
8. Please enlighten us...what profession are you in that allowed you to...
...make more money during the Reagan presidency than you have since?
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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. I was in sales at the time.
Now I'm a college professor. A no brainer there, I'm sure.
But my husband had a heating and air conditioning business and he did quite well during those 8 years.
During Clinton, we had a recession that hurt his business.
But we loved Clinton and voted for him every time.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. You're a college professor?
Edited on Sun Jun-13-04 12:21 PM by dirk
Your reasons for liking Reagan are remarkably weak, considering that. He was an astrology buff? (actually that was Nancy, not Ronnie). His wife adored him? Good reasons there.

What subject is it that you teach?
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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Don't attack me on astrology.
My mother is an astrologer, and I have been raised with it. I'm a believer.
I teach communication, journalism and public relations. Perhaps my statement was weak, but I wasn't writing a dissertation, and don't claim to be an expert on political science.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I'm not "attacking" you on anything
I actually agree that Reagan wasn't as bad as Bush. And I don't disbelieve in astrology, myself. I'm just saying that, intellectually, you could come up with some more substantive reasons for rating Reagan highly. Liking him because he believed in astrology is the same as liking Bush for being a Christian--it has nothing whatsoever to do with the ability to be a competent president. And of course neither does the fact that his wife adored him.
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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Well, since you seem to be such an intellectual,
Why don't you come up with some reasons?
I just wanted to start the discussion. I don't pretend to be a Will Pitt, for heaven's sake!
My main point was that all of us have good and bad in us, and that RR was not as bad as some are saying, and not nearly as good as the media are saying, and that we need to be realistic.
A president, for good or ill, is more or less a figurehead, anyway. I think the American people look to presidents as being a representative of all of us.
In many respects, RR was that.
A woman friend of mine who admitted she voted for him because he reminded her of her Dad, said he had no idea about his policies, one way or the other.
The Amercan voter does not look at substance, but aura.
I'm not like that. I examine things.
But I always vote Democratic, and will never vote for another Republican, based on my feelings against Republican policies.
Maybe I'm not an intellectual. But I'm not a knee jerk hater or lover, either.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. RR was not as bad as some are saying...
Edited on Sun Jun-13-04 01:15 PM by Karenina
Hmmmm... Is your skin "white" by American standards?

"I think the American people look to presidents as being a representative of all of us. In many respects, RR was that."

Are you identifiable as a "them" in American society? You surely said a mouthful! Just asking... ;-)

Do these statements "represent" you? Thanks to Spanone.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Here's some Raygun qoutes. He was some guy eh?



"80 percent of air pollution comes not from chimneys and auto
exhaust pipes, but from plants and trees."
-Reagan, '79

"Facts are stupid things.."
-Reagan, '88

"a faceless mass, waiting for handouts."
-Reagan, '65, describing Medicaid recipients.

"Because Vietnam was not a declared war, the veterans are not even
eligible for the G. I. Bill of Rights with respect to education or
anything."
-Reagan, '80

"Taxes should hurt. I just mailed my own tax return last night and
I am prepared to say `ouch!' as loud as anyone."
-Reagan, '70, after approving California's largest tax increase in
history. Reporters soon pointed out that Reagan didn't pay a cent
on state taxes that year. For all his talk about shrinking
government, California's state budget more than doubled under his
governorship, from $4.6 billion to $10.2 billion.

"I know all the bad things that happened in that war. I was in
uniform for four years myself."
-Reagan, '85, justifying laying a wreath at a Nazi cemetery in
Bitburg. Reagan spent WWII in Hollywood, making films.

"They haven't been there. I have."
-Reagan, '85, justifying his policies on Nicaragua. Ronald Reagan
had never visited Nicaragua.

"They have eliminated the segregation that we once had in our own
country..."
-Reagan, '85, praising the government of P.W. Botha in South
Africa, during the height of Apartheid.

"I cannot recall anything whatsoever about whether I approved an
Israeli sale in advance or whether I approved replenishment of
Israeli stocks around
August of 1985. My answer therefore and the simple truth is, 'I
don't remember, period'"
-Reagan, Feb. '87

"Mr. President, why don't we openly support those 7,000 guerillas
that are in rebellion rather than giving aid through covert
activity?"
"Well, because we want to keep on obeying the laws of our country,
which we are now obeying."
"Doesn't the United States want that government replaced?"
"No, because that would be a violation of the law."
-Reagan, ''87. At the time of the press conference, the U.S. was
giving the indiscriminately murderous Contra guerillas covert aid,
in direct violation of the law. Reagan's lie was so obvious that
members of the press corps laughed loudly and openly at his statements.

"A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms
for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's
true, but the facts and evidence
tell me it is not."
-Reagan, Mar. '87

"If the question comes up at the Tower Board meeting, you might
want to say that you were surprised."
-Reagan, '87, accidentally reading the notes for his stage
directions aloud which told him to act surprised should the issue
of arms-for-hostages come up.

"They are the moral equivalent of America's founding fathers."
-Reagan, '85, referring to the brutal Contra rebels in Nicaragua,
who indiscriminately attacked civilians.

"...an example to the world of the ideals we hold most dear, the
ideals of freedom and independence."
-Reagan, '85, praising the Afghan Mujahaddin. These "freedom
fighters" included prominent leaders of Al Qaeda, such as Osama Bin
Laden, as well as many of the
leaders for the Taliban.

"Hollywood has no blacklist."
-Reagan, '60. FBI records have since shown that this was a lie, and
that Reagan personally informed on several actors, later shown to
be innocent, destroying their careers in the process.

"I would have voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964."
-Reagan, '66

"If there has to be a bloodbath, then let's get it over with."
-Reagan, '69, prior to having national guard soldiers break up a
peaceful protest on the UC Berkeley campus. The protesters were
teargassed and fired upon with buckshot, killing one protester and
wounding at least 128 others.

"a tragic illness."
-Reagan, '67, desribing homosexuality. When two of his aides were
found to be gay that year, he asked for their resignations.

"Maybe the Lord brought down this plague illicit sex is
against the Ten Commandments."
-Reagan, '89. Reagan didn't even mention AIDS until 1987, by which
time it had spread into the heterosexual population and over 25,000
Americans had died.

"What we have found in this country, and maybe we're more aware of
it now, is one problem that we've had, even in the best of times,
and that is the people who are sleeping on the grates, the homeless
who are homeless, you might say, by choice"
-Reagan, '84.

"For the first time ever, everything is in place for the battle of
Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ. It can't be too long
now. Ezekiel says that fire and brimstone will be rained upon the
enemies of God's people. That must mean that they will be
destroyed by nuclear weapons."
-Reagan, '71

"It's silly talking about how many years we will have to spend in
the jungles of Vietnam when we could pave the whole country and put
parking strips on it, and be
home by Christmas"
-Reagan, '65

"Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do."
-Reagan '81

"A tree is a tree. How many more do you have to look at?"
-Reagan '66, opposing expansion of Redwood National Park

"I have flown twice over Mt St Helens out on our west coast. I'm
not a scientist and I don't know the figures, but I have a
suspicion that that one little mountain has
probably released more sulphur dioxide into the atmosphere of the
world than has been released in the last ten years of automobile
driving or things of that kind that
people are so concerned about."
-Reagan, '80. At its peak, Mt. St. Helens released 1/40th as much
sulfur dioxide as cars do every day.

"All the waste in a year from a nuclear power plant can be stored
under a desk."
-Reagan, '80. (In fact, a single nuclear power plant can produce up
to 22,000 cubic feet of of radioactive waste per year.)

"There is today in the United States as much forest as there was
when Washington was at Valley Forge."
-Reagan, '83. The US Forest Service estimated only about 30 percent
of forest lands of 1775 still existed 208 years later.


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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #36
62. Excuse me, but why the reference to skin color????
What does my being "white " have to do with anything??? Do you honestly believe that white people see the world differently than people of color???
Perhaps I should have said, "RR represented white, bigoted America," which would have been more to the truth. I actually thought that this was implied by my statements.
But don't assume my whiteness affects my opinion.
Elsewhere on here people are using the word "peckerwood," etc., which are epithets.
Is this really OK? I think not.
Let's be civil.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #62
70. "RR represented white, bigoted America."
Nuff' said.

"Do you honestly believe that white people see the world differently than people of color???"

SURELY you jest.

"But don't assume my whiteness affects my opinion."

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :silly: :silly: :silly:

I suggest you read some Tim Wise. HE gets it.

Don't mind me, Sweetie. I realize in reading your posts that you ARE sincere, just miseducated and underexposed. After a week of BULLSHIT, I confess I'm all sharp edges now, ready to smack a good 60% of the folks from the land of my birth upside the haid while screaming in my best Cher voice "SNAP OUT OF IT!!!"
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. this has all been a very humorous joke tiger, now, get real.....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Deleted message
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #27
86. Good grief
You don't have to be Will Pitt or an "intellectual" to come with something more substantive about Reagan that what you've said here. Your original post asked people to be honest about Reagan, but all you've done is come up with basically the same things that much of the ignorant American public says--he was such a nice guy, a father figure, a good sense of humor, a kindly old grandfather. I haven't heard you mention one thing that might actually balance all the bad things he did.

So, is this how you decide who to vote for? If that's all you have, then I have to flat out tell you that you are simply wrong about Reagan. The man's actions are what's important, not his demeanor. It doesn't matter that Bush II is much worse than Reagan; Reagan was terrible on his own.
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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. I didn't say I chose how to vote by my surface perceptions.
What I said was, let's be honest about the fact that he did have a profound influence on the world, and on America, despite how that influence is perceived. At least that is what I meant to say.
I'm also honest in saying that emotionally, his funeral hit a chord. I'm no fan of RR.
I'm just saying that we need to at least admit that he was a pivotal figure, and give him that respect DURING THE FUNERAL.
I think in retrospect, RR will be looked at with a lot less adulation. I hope so, anyway.
My remarks about his time being good for business were just observations that other people have also noted.
Personally, that is all I have to say.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. honest, he was an old and tired man and not a lot of
education and knowledge. walking to illness
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greekspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. I gave him a few days out of respect
But those days have passed. Ronald Reagan was a rotten man who could smile pretty, like Rummy and the cabal, and serve steaming feces on a silver tray and pass it off as filet mignon. People starved because of him. Racism grew because of him. Homophobia and ignorance about AIDS grew because of him. He lied about Iran/Contra and got away with it.

While I have no desire to "piss on his grave," I do not mourn his passing. I do feel empathy for his family, especially poor Nancy Reagan, who is 84 and spent the last week being drug pillar to post by all the neo-cons trying to milk Reagan's dead corpse for all it is worth. If I were Nancy, I would have wanted to walk up to Shrub and slap that shit eating grin off his face.

I deliberately avoided all the three ring circus that was the news last week, yet I still got tired of all the sycophants trying to canonize St. Ronnie. When Pukes are getting burned out hearing the ass-kissing, you know they have milked a little too much.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
45. Reagan made everyone proud and secure of their bigotry.
And you're absolutely right.

People starved because of him. He responded to that by saying we should cut food stamps and welfare because black women were driving Cadillacs they bought with their welfare checks, and eating fillet mignon they bought with their food stamps.

Racism grew because of him, for the same reason as the above, and for a slew more I won't get into here, and, what's worse, he paved the way for all this neo-conservative Christian Right-wing crap that's so pervasive these days. Nowadays that attitude among the right has blossomed to where anyone who dares to disagree with them, is either a "traitor", "insane" or a "faggot".

Homophobia and ignorance about AIDS grew because of him. Reagan did nothing about AIDS, and everything to promote homophobia, by using it as a bogeyman that stigmatized the gay community. He ignorantly blamed it on homosexuals, and cut funding to AIDS research. His policies on AIDS were a product of indifference, disdain, self-imposed ignorance, and political brown nosing to a reactionary and religious Republican constituency.

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candy331 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
12. You know I don't think you would have all this all/nothing
discussion if it was not for such attempts to glorify and make a God out of the man. If it could be accepted that he made some ghastly mistakes and did some good things for the country and let it rest at that.But the attempt to deify him is causing furor. He is being hailed as the greatest President since WWII and his record just does not show that to be the case.

A few words I heard at a funeral one time said " Let my works speak for me". Seems like everyone and everything is speaking except his works.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. i heard conclusion after 7 days of this
is the gReatesT amerIcan in HISTORY.............

that is not a little thing. my nine year old went into giggle and ya right, and then told me history for a half hour, i had to sho him away
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
13. Please re-read your thread title
Being honest about someone does not stop during the mourning period, no matter how long it lasts.
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Delano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
16. A lot of us have said the same thing...
It's just the hate-posts that get all the flames...
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
17. Not as bad as Bush? Pinochet wasn't as bad as Franco.
Mussollini wasn't as bad as Hitler. But none of them should ever have been in charge of a country.

He wasn't a "good speaker". He dealt in anecdotes and platitudes that the ignorant lapped up.

"Nobody is all bad, or all good. There are shades of each in all of us."

Here we agree. But, most of us are able to control our dark side.

Reagan and Bush didn't and don't.


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NightTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
19. I understand your point of view.
I think the main reason so many at DU (myself included) have bad-mouthed Reagan was in response to the mainstream media's endless, gushing coverage of the man.

While it certainly is true that, as you said, "nobody is all bad or all good," to have followed the press this past week, you'd have thought that Ronald Reagan was the second coming of Christ. Well, those of us who survived his eight-year nap know better and felt the need to say so.

Just my two cents....
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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. The main thing that bothers me about all this Reagan bashing is this:
We are no better than the Freepers when we resort to such name calling and hateful words. We need to be reasonable, as Will Pitt was, and lay out the truth.
I think it is more or less normal behavior for people to put someone like Reagan on a pedestal, if they can, during his funeral.
I think that the Bush people are trying to capitalize on it, yes.
But I also believe that Ron Reagan (the son) said some very appropriate things and that Nancy Reagan will not be used by the neocons to push their agenda.
There are some decent people in that family.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. this i agree and what repugs did was such an afront
there was such energy in this fabrication for the world to swallow from get go. but it does show the common in humans.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
23. AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
25. Pink Tiger me too..... mixed emotions....
Edited on Sun Jun-13-04 12:52 PM by 28erl
Why are my emotions mixed? I voted for Ronald Reagan. I don't remember if I voted for him each time. I lived in NC at the time. And I too made more money, when on more business trips and had a financially better life than the one I am currently living. I worked in IT at the time.

Reading posts like William Pitts this week also brings back lots of memories of the times then.

While at the book store yesterday, I looked through a special edition magazine on the Reagans. They did live a charmed life. I did not realize he had made so many movies before coming into office.

I have felt mixed emotions thinking why did I not vote Democratic at the time. What candidates and views did they have? I was naive at that time and voted for the opinions and views stated by individuals. I assumed they would do good for the people.

I wanted to believe they would cut taxes and get the people who were abusing and using the system off the roles.

My idea of cutting government waste and taxes is quite different than what they actually do. They cut out anything that is good for the whole. They keep all the pork barrel. They give lots to the rich. They give themself a raise every year after the elections. They never give us back our money. They spend more and more on things like wars and bombs while forcing mentally ill patients into the streets in an effort to cut spending where it will help the majority.

So it has taken me some time to come back and vote Democratic no matter who the candidate is or how awful they look or spineless or whatever the candidate is. Because I now know when someone says they will cut taxes it will be my library, or park, or streets, or something that is good for all. They will not cut those flower arrangements on the tables in WH or congress or for special meetings. They will not cut those unnecessary trips or plane fares. They will not cut the areas that are their personal privliges. They will not cut their HUGE gym and health club. They will continue to enhance their own personal lives while cutting anything for us.

Social Security is a real concern and they want to do away with that. There retirement comes from a separate fund.

So although I was charmed by the persona that Reagan put on and the words that he said and used, I now see that I and others were duped. That same rhetoric is duping and working on young people today. When people hear cut taxes, they vote. They don't realize the taxes they are cutting will affect them not the politician.

So it is with mixed emotions still that I feel for a woman who spent the last 10 years seeing a man turn into a vegetable and see her country betrayed by the same policies and people her husband picked. It is ironic that stem cell research which might have helped is blocked by BFEE and that from what I have read her son, recognizes this.

Pomp and tradition do have a way of healing. Seeing the family on the West coast for the end of the week ceremonies was NICE. I liked seeing them out of the Washington Environment. Having the Children speak and especially Ron Reagan Jr. was especially enlighting.

I am not happy with the consequences of my actions in voting for this man, yet I will never know what might have happened under a different president.

I am sorry that he created Bush I and Bush II and the neocon government.

For my part I will ALWAYS vote Democratic from now on, no matter what. Unless they too turn into Hitler.

I find the Democrats need to find a way to become whole again and stand up to these mean spirited Christians. They must learn how to talk back to mean spirited, intimadating double speak people. And we must win our democracy back. We must go back to looking at what is good for the whole. We must institute better controls on curbing our own ciminals so that all may have freedom and feel safe in our own country.

Some parts of Reagan as with any human were good, and some parts were not. Remembering both is probably a good balance. It is what I would want when people look at me.

We are all human. We all do good and bad things.
Reagan was human and did damage to a lot of people from all the stories I have read.

additions
I remember a friend I met in Florida who worked in NYC in 1984... said there were a lot of homeless on the streets. Blocks and blocks when he would get off the train. Cardboard boxes for homes. I did not connect that with Reagan but with the economy. I now see looking at the bigger picture how that was also part of it.
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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Very well said.
Thank you; you spoke for me, as well.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. "get the people who were abusing and using the system off the roles"
*THAT* mission was accomplished.

And THOUSANDS died from it.

Feel better now?

Kanary
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. not the ones who needed help but the ones who were abusing help
There were a number of people portrayed at the time as abusing the system. They were collecting while having cars and boats and other homes. They did not really need the help.

Unfortunately, as I said, I was duped. what actually happened is they took money and funds away from those who DID need help. The help for Children was taken away... what was AFDAC or something like that.

As I recall that, my neighbor was on that for her child. She was not abusing the system. I would actually help her out. When that ended, and she mentioned it and the hardship, again, I never put two and two together that it was from Ronald Reagan policies. Again, she didn't mention that either.

It is clearer now how one thing led to something else. The actions on one issue affected issues in different areas.

I was clueless. As many are today. I have changed as I am sure others have.

Since, you jumped on me, my suggestion is to go out and make sure the clueless of today are educated so that the same thing does not happen today.

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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. You mean Aid to Families with Dependent Children.
Edited on Sun Jun-13-04 01:07 PM by PinkTiger
http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/afdc/afdc.txt

this link explains the present program.

The main thing the Republicans have done to this program is make it a state program funded with matching federal money but dependent on state regulations to define income guidelines.
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Yes that is the one I meant
She needed that. And they changed it or cut her off at the time.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Yes, you were duped.
All the "Welfare Cadillac" lies KILLED people.

And, yes, I'm ANGRY, as I almost was one of those who are now DEAD. Maybe if it was you, you'd understand that.

And, don't make assumptions about what I am or am not doing. Having voted for those policies, and still trumpeting "using and abusing the system", you don't get to tell me what to do.

Yes, I repeat.... I'm ANGRY. All those dead people....... for LIES.

Kanary
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. I do believe that those who need help should get it
I am sorry that you were almost one of those who died.

I am angry that there were lies spread.

I also realize there are still some that will go for a ride on the system. Including the CEO's of Enron, Halliburton, etc.

Yes I am also angry that the people are being lied to by the government and the media. And that this is the data that many have to use to make their vote.

I am also angry that over half the american people don't vote.
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Robin Hood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
28. I find it ironic that Reagan died from Alzheimer disease.
Considering how he gutted funds for Mental Health and threw mentally ill people out into the streets. The only regret I have is that he never got a chance to experience homelessness.
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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. It was also ironic that Reagan was used by the GOP
And in his twilight years he realized it, as did his family. He left the White House without real personal wealth; true, he was better off than most of us, but was unable to really afford to live among the people he associated with, without help.
I seem to remember that his home in California was a gift.
Also, that much of his other money was given to him and Nancy.
I feel that surely this man felt regret.
If not, that is truly unfortunate.
Clinton, by the way, was not a perfect president. His taking women off of Welfare and reduction in benefits after three children was not a good thing, in my opinion.
Also, closing the bases and reducing the military was perhaps not a good thing, in retrospect.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. why don't you just dig him up and kiss his ass tiger?...jesus!....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
75. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. funny how a little compassion here is being attacked just as if we
were in Freeper land.

Understanding a mistake and having regrets about it and admitting it, I would like to think is acceptable. Working toward change is an action to correct the misguided steps.

I am sure many here have or will make mistakes that hopefully they will recognize, admit, and change their actions and behavior. I know as I grow older that more I know, the more I know that I don't know.

Yes, both parties seem to have this attitude now of still getting rid of big government while what they are really doing is cutting funds to those who truly need them. They are not cutting the pork barrel stuff or their salaries which now are way above the average wage that people make.

We all need to work on helping change our government to a more compassion, and kind one.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. compassion for reagan is wasted compassion
no one is attacking compassion. we are attacking the lies STILL surrounding reagan, even after the fucker is gone
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. i'm a very young 53, and i'm viler than you'll ever be
speak your own mind all you want, no one is stopping you. only disagreeing with you
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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. OK, let me rephrase.
We are, by the way, the same age. Mea culpa.
Now.
Reagan stood for everything that was wrong with this country. He was the mouthpiece for the religious right, got out of trouble with Iran Contra by playing dumb, disenfranchised the already disenfranchised poor, and did all the evil things he did with impunity.
I agree.
But I'm looking for something positive in all this. I found it, I believe, in watching the graveside ceremony the other day. I think even the neocons are embarrassed by Bush, and that is positive.
We need some of them to win this election.
I believe we can rise up and win, and take the White House, and this time maybe with a real Democrat.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. What would be *positive*
Is to keep reminding everyone of all those horrible actions you just posted.

Millions and millions are duped into thinking that he was sooo kind, and soooooo pleasant, and soooo humorous, so all those policies that KILL can be swept under that same rug, and continued and continued and continued.

THAT'S not positive.

The *TRUTH* must be spoken........ the US has been deluded for all too long, and look where it got us.

Kanary
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. ATTACK?
That Evil One attacked so many, and there are so many deaths as a result, yet you're worried that we may actually SAY that out loud, and express what we feel about it?

You talk about "compassion"......... maybe what's happening is that we have compassion for all those who were harmed by The Evil One, and you are lacking in that.

Hmmmmmmm.........

Kanary
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clydefrand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
57. Stem-cell research
Had Reagan not been so opposed to stem-cell research just maybe he would not have died of Alzheimer's. Isn't this why Nancy is now wanting legislation passed that will allow this research? She should have advised him about this 20 years ago. And our favorite Shrub to hate is equally obstinate on this issue.
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muchacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #57
73. Ideology over science
I'm not sure Reagan even heard the words "stem cell research" as president. I think the science was still immature at the time.

It was a cruel irony that the war he helped wage on a woman's right to choose fed into the larger battles of which stem cell research is one.

When religious belief and ideology trumps humanism and science to shape policy this can be the result.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
38. 2nd, 3rd or 4th Worst President..............EVER!
In the bottom 5th percentile.

:thumbsdown:
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I give him a close third.
Right behind Boobya and Andy Johnson.
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
51. Glad you brought this up
I have wanted to post about my mixed emotions on this and you gave me that opportunity.

Thank god you did not vote for him. Did you vote for the democrat? Who was it for each of the elections?
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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. If you are asking me
I voted for the Democrat in 1980 and in 1984. It was Carter and Mondale. And in 1988 I voted for Dukakis.
And in 1992 I voted for Clinton, and in 1996 I voted for Clinton, and in 2000 I voted for Gore.
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. I was trying to remember who the candidates were to try to remember
who I voted for... who was running each of the years.

someone else mentioned Anderson, I vote for him. I voted for Perot the first time. Thanks God we got Clinton instead of Bush. I felt you should vote the candidate you believed in. Never thinking how that could allow the Guy you REALLY did not want into office.

I made the mistake of voting third parties. But now having read more on third parties and how voting for them gets everything you ever wanted destroyed, I would not do that again.

1996 voted Clinton and 2000 voted Gore

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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
52. Honesty you want?
Reagan was buttkissin' peckerwood that should have had his head bashed for lying about co-workers (calling them communists) during the McCarthy witch hunt days. Any respect for 'being in the service' was due to his acting in movies.

His acting experience prepared him to do what he did best, lie.

How he ever got to be gov of California, let alone president is beyond me.

Reagan does not deserve our adulation or even respect. Much of what is going wrong today had its start with Reagan.

You can respect him if you wish, but I will not, ever. Many will say what a great man he was, IMO he was a small cheap shot excuse for a human.

My only regrets concerning his death is he escaped justice for too long.

May God have mercy on his soul.
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IconoclastIlene Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
55. No man or woman dead nor alive is sacrosanct.
and I am a bit tired with the elevation to sainthood that this 93 year old gentleman, who died long after the prime of his life, president or not, has passed away.

His children and widow are well taken care of financially and in every other way...every family should have it so "good" when the man of the house finally meets his maker.

I am apalled at the instant sainthood this man has been apparently given and tired of the whole thing in general.

I, who lost my own father, have my own issues to deal with and my father is my flesh and blood; Mr. Reagan is just another celebrity to me, in view of that fact.

My own father is sacrosanct, if but only to me.

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Cat Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
61. Why speak fondly of an asshole just because he's dead?
Edited on Sun Jun-13-04 01:42 PM by Cat Atomic
Reagan was a racist, red baiting, elitist asshole when he was a alive. He's a dead asshole now.

I had no praise for him before and I'm certainly not going to change my tune now, just because he's finally joined the thousands his policies killed. YES, KILLED.
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Cat Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
63. How old are you, by the way?
I had a real blast living through Reagan's assault on the poor. I was poor.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. he claims to be 53, same as me
but who can say for sure?
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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. SHE is 53, and is not lying.
Edited on Sun Jun-13-04 02:34 PM by PinkTiger
I was born in Kansas in 1950, Sept. 12.
I was reared in SW Missouri.
Graduated in 1968 from a small, consolidated high school.
Joined the Army in 1969 after I flunked out of college.
Married at 19 to a man who was 26, twice a vietnam vet.
divorced in 1973.
Moved back home to live with parents, went back to school, made straight A's, worked and went to school.
GI bill.
Married again in 1977. One daughter, three step sons and married for 27 years. Worked in various lowpaying jobs, then decided to finish my education.
I worked my way through college, finishing at the age of 39, going tor a master's degree by WORKING my way through.
Graduated in 1991, joined the work force again, worked as a journalist and taught school part time. Now teaching full time.
.
I am a woman.

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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. stop you started out as a nice person in your first post
now you are in that same rw type rhetoric that is mean spirted and attacking.... stop it is not becoming. I like the first you I saw....

I guess it is like Reagan..... we all seem to have that rw rhetoric when a shorts are in a bunch....we are all human
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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Its the personal attacks. I hate this. I apologize for even trying.
I knew I couldn't be allowed to speak my piece here without being attacked by the dogs.
This is the reason I rarely post here. This group is vicious.
I'm sorry I even tried to say what I was thinking, because apparently, you can't be part of the DU unless you are on the fringe.
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Cat Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Vicious?
Many people here do not share your charitable views on Reagan. I don't think he deserves an ounce of respect for his cruel policies.

If that makes me "fringe", then fine.
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #68
76. you can share your views.....they are sharing theirs too....
just don't engage when they go into that mean spirited rw rhetoric. It is meant to stir up hate. And it does. let it go. It is their anger not yours. One feels she suffered under his Regime. Just like Iraq, those who were in that prison are going to have a lot of anger. Those who made out or did better because of USA invasion will have a totally different point of view.

And it is ok that they are angry. And it is ok that you are not angry.

Let the anger go. That is the problem. Not the view.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #68
78. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
65. Reagan had the gift of charisma
That in itself is neither good nor bad. It's how you use your gifts.

Hitler and Mussolini had charisma.

Some astrologers and psychics have charisma too.

--IMM
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
71. HE WAS A LOWLIFE REACTIONARY DIRTBAG...
I'm only sorry that he didn't die 25 years ago

FUCK RONALD REAGAN
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Yes he was, but with charisma.
--IMM
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
77. Oh puleeze, he was the creator of everything that came after.
eom
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
79. sorry you voted for him
Edited on Sun Jun-13-04 03:55 PM by noiretblu
i suspect that most of those defending him here did. his reign was as terrifying for some as the current idiot's. i know it's hard for those of you who prospered to understand that, but not all of us did as well as you did.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Hey girlfriend!
It was yo own damn fault, welfare queen need to pull yosef up by yo own damn bootstraps, learn the value of WORK!!! I ain't payin' no taxes so YOU PEOPLE be spittin' out crack babies and shit! REVERSE DISCRIMINATION!!! :silly:
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. LMAO...you're killing me :)
yeah...let's make america great again by regressing back to 1946, two years earlier than trent lott's nostalgic vision :eyes: yeah...my folks were doing GREAT back then :eyes: swimming in privelege, and can't see the water for the water..."reverse discrimination" indeed. :hi:
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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #81
85. Work is not a four letter word.
Well, it is .... but not a bad four-letter word.
I was not saying that those who are on Welfare don't work. I'm actually a socialist, and I believe we should take care of our children and our mothers and our old people and that everyone should have free healthcare and never go hungry or not have a place to live.
The problem is the grasp of wealth by the few. The greed.
But I also believe that work is a good thing. I personally enjoy working. When I'm not working I tend to be miserable.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. I'd sure find it mighty interesting
if you would deign to address any point in my post #36 above. R'ally I would...
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PinkTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. Your points??? I don't see any points to address.
Edited on Sun Jun-13-04 06:39 PM by PinkTiger
Why don't you tell me why you are so full of hate?
I don't understand why we must be so strident in here.
I will attempt to answer you, but I don't think it really will tell you anything:

Am I "white" according to American standards??? Probably, but not to Nazi standards. I'm white trash mixed with Native American, don't have a pedigree, and don't have friends in high places.
Do I consider RR to be representative of me? No. I do however,, realize that a great many Americans identified with him as a father figure. I didn't. \
My own father was a part Native American, a man with dark skin, exotic features, and a man who made himself what he became. He was a man who never had the friends in high places RR had. Still, he supported a family and was well-thought of in the community. His funeral was well-attended.
I still have the guest list.


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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. Nor, if what you say now is true
Edited on Sun Jun-13-04 06:54 PM by Karenina
Do I get yours. :shrug:

"I liked the fact he was a good speaker;"

Did you HEAR, READ or COMPREHEND what he SAID???

"and I liked that he was an astrology buff. These things salvaged him a little, in my opinion."

Reading Sydney Omarr salvages him from his DIRECT RESPONSIBILITY in the the DEATHS AND SUFFERING OF MILLIONS??? :shrug:

"I think he was a terribly ineffective father, like a lot of fathers, my own included. His wife, Nancy, adored him, though; we have to give him that."

Na, und? Eva adored Adolf too...

"Also, the man is dead."

GOOD. Finally an end to his and his family's long suffering. May he burn in hell for the horrors he visited upon so many.

"Can we not separate our political opinions from his eulogy? Can we not speak fondly of the dead, for at least a while?"

NO. Not for someone who SPEARHEADED the destruction of the values I grew up with and perhaps foolishly, still hold dear. Sorry.

"I will say that during his presidency, I made more money than I've made since. This may be a coincidence; but it is truth."

Ahhhh! The "ME" generation. :eyes:

Hey PT, YOU started the thread... :think:
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
83. yes, that's it
i want a world leader who consults astrologers to make policy decisions.

boy, what was FDR or Clinton ever thinking?
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Democracy Died 2004 Donating Member (366 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
84. I have only fond memories
of Dumb ass reagoon..
Here it is

A 93 year old shriveled shell, looking more like a raisin than a human being. Shitting and pissing himself and drooling like a baby.
having loved ones surround him and being oblivious to who they are...
Now that is my Kodak memory i will always carry with me of that piece of shit.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
87. let's be honest about reagan.....well pink, we're still waiting
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RidgeWalker Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
88. Noble
Noble, but Reagan was a salesman and he knew it. The bad far outweighed the good, and the bad legacy will far outlast anything good he did.

National Debt being the best example.
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
93. Ray-goon ignored AIDS for years.
Edited on Sun Jun-13-04 06:49 PM by greatauntoftriplets
How many people have died because of that neglect?

And before you try to make this an age issue, I will be 55 in August and am a straight woman. I lived through those years. Ketchup is a vegetable, the great cheese giveaway, Iran-Contra, secret wars in Central America, sending Rumsfeld to Iraq to shake hands with Saddam Hussein.

I could go on and on and on.

You like him because they made major decisions on this country's foreign policy based on what some astrologer said?

His style of speaking was smarmy. Rather like numbnuts' "charm offensives".

On edit: And in case you have missed it, numbnuts is patterning his regime after Ray-goon FAR MORE than he is after Poppy's.

Think about it....
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
95. Locking;;;;;;;;
I would like to remind everyone that we do
have rules re: personal attacks.



PERSONAL ATTACKS, CIVILITY, AND RESPECT

The administrators of Democratic Underground are working to provide a place where progressives can share ideas and debate in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Despite our best efforts, many of our members often stray from this ideal and cheapen the quality of discourse for everyone else. Unfortunately, it is simply impossible to write a comprehensive set of rules forbidding every type of antisocial behavior. The fact that the rules don't forbid a certain type of post does not automatically make an uncivil post appropriate, nor does it imply that the administrators approve of disrespectful behavior. Every member of this community has a responsibility to participate in a respectful manner, and to help foster an atmosphere of thoughtful discussion. In this regard, we strongly advise that our members exercise a little common decency, rather than trying to parse the message board rules to figure out what type of antisocial behavior is not forbidden.

Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other members of this discussion board.

If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger. For example, if someone posts factually incorrect information, it is appropriate to say, "your facts are wrong," but it is not appropriate to say "you are a liar."


Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, troll, conservative, Republican, or FReeper. Do not try to come up with cute ways of skirting around the spirit of this rule. If you think someone is a disruptor, click the "Alert" link below their post so the moderators can deal with it. Unfortunately, it has become all too common for members of this message board to label anyone with a slightly different point of view as a disruptor. We disapprove of this behavior because its intent is to stifle discussion, enforce a particular "party line," and pre-emptively label a particular point of view as inappropriate or unwelcome. This makes thoughtful and open debate virtually impossible.

Democratic Underground is a "big tent" message board which welcomes a broad range of progressive opinions. As such, you are likely to disagree strongly with many of the comments you see expressed here. Please do not take these differences of opinion personally. The simple fact that someone disagrees with you does not give you the right to lash out and break the rules of this message board. A thick skin is usually required to participate on this or any message board.



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I am locking this thread because it has
become a flamefest.


DU Moderator
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