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wtf Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 02:22 AM
Original message
Question for those knowledgeable about UK politics..
I'm hoping someone can tell me where Tony Blair stands politically, using well known American politicians as comparisons. And also do the same thing with his party, the Labor Party, and the Liberal Democrats...much thanks for any insight! :)
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. Lets put it this way
Labor was buried in local elections... tony is costing
Labor much... if not the whole store.

I will not be surprised if the revolt that has been
brewing finally materializes and Tony is given a
vote of no confidence or asked to step down as the head
of labor (and as the PM as well)

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wtf Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Oops!
I wasn't clear, I didn't means "stands" as in how he's doing, I meant his stances on the issues, sorry. :)
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Labor is left of center, very much left of center
New labor is closer to the center, (still left for american tastes)

He is the closest to the DLC in the US... even if left from them, and a tad more progresive.

As to American politics, well given our band is very narrow, New labor is center left, Labor is definitely left (the comunist party is way left), and the Conservatives are very much to the right. There is a small party that is borderline fascist, their name escape me right now.

In some ways Tony oculd even be seen as Wellstone like but in others well left of Clinton.

Hope this helps

(oh a side note, watching the House of Commons can be fun during the weekend on C-SPAN)
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wtf Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. asdf
Thanks very much for the info! I always thought of him as rather liberal, which is why his support for the Iraq war struck me as odd. But anyone who can be compared to Wellstone is alright in my book, politically anyway.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I forgot the other thing
he is also born again. THis is not something people speak off
openly o'er there.
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mrfrapp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. BNP?
"New labor is center left, Labor is definitely left"

The Labour party is very much a right wing party due to their tolerance and even advocacy of private ownership. This contrasts with the Labour of old (pre-Blair) who oppossed private ownership quite vocally. Economically, they're pretty much the same as the Tories so I would say the two are equals on the left/right spectrum. The Labour party is far more liberal than the Tories however and therefore comparable to the Democrats.

"There is a small party that is borderline fascist, their name escape me right now."

You're probably thinking of the British National Party (BNP) but I wouldn't say they were fascists particularly, just racists.
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Beearewhyain Donating Member (291 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
6. Party plays a paramount role for parliamentary gov'ts...
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 02:55 AM by Beearewhyain
and almost always the governments policy gets voted in, if not they have to hold a new election to see if another party can gain enough seats to take over the government. As a rule they follow their manifesto which can be found on this page and here
Hope this might help.

On edit: Fixed link
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T_i_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 02:55 AM
Response to Original message
7. He's the Prime Minister!
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 02:59 AM by Thankfully_in_Britai
Seriously though, the local elections (not to mention the EU parliament elections declaring on Sunday) are a bit like the US mid-term elections.

"new" labour has performed really badly at the local elections and the impression I get is that people were voting against Blair and Labour rather than for anyone else. They may or may not have performed similarly badly at the European elections.

The election that matters most to Blair and Labour is the general election, similar I guess to your elections this year. The difference being that the party with the most number of seats wins office with the leader of the majority party becoming PM, as opposed to the US seperation of executive and legislature. The question here is, will "new" labour perform just as badly in the general elections? Only time will tell.

I should also add that for comparison "new" labour are a bit like the DLC, the Conservative party a bit like the GOP and the Liberal Democrats are I suppose a bit like the Howard Dean wing of the US Democratic party. The Greens are the equivalent of Nader.
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Beearewhyain Donating Member (291 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Question about the LD
I have been under the impression that they were "between" Labour and the Torries in kind of the same ideological manor as our Libertarians; Government out of everything. Any insight is greatly appreciated.
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T_i_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. They used to be the centre party
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 03:16 AM by Thankfully_in_Britai
But Blair has taken "new" labour into that territory and now the Liberal Democrats, who have not changed all that much over time are now the more progressive party of the three main parties.

Here's the website so you can find out more about them. They are not libertarian but they do stand for proprtional represntation, replacing council tax with a local income tax, more money for essential public services such as schools and hospitals. They opposed the Iraq war and are pro-EU.

http://www.libdems.org.uk/
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Beearewhyain Donating Member (291 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Thanks for the link
Didn't John Cleese do a commercial for the LD regarding proportional representation? Sorry for the additional question but I will assume (yes I know what that makes me :) ) from your moniker that you are located in the U.K.
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T_i_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. However did you guess? :-)
And yes, John Cleese has been a very prominent Liberal Democrat supporter in the past.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
8. Labour came in THIRD place in local elections
behind the Tories and LD...

They will also be buried in the EU Parliament elections...

Tony is done...

IF he stays on, he will take his party down with him.
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the Kelly Gang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 03:14 AM
Response to Original message
11. I think Tony Blair is like a Conservative..the way they used to be
before M.Thatchter shifted them to the right.
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Beearewhyain Donating Member (291 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 04:28 AM
Response to Original message
14. Kick
hoping that better minds than myself will be able to help wtf out.
:kick:
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Atlanticist Donating Member (125 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 06:09 AM
Response to Original message
15. Not sure if your initial question's been answered yet, but I'll try
"New" Labour - the governing party run by Blair. It's Clintonian in outlook, with it's publicly stated "Third Way" between socialism and the free market. Unfortunately, Blair is further right than most of his party. Blair is probably = Clinton in his belief that the market can sometimes provide greater social justice than government intervention. This is why Blair supports more private provision of healthcare and is in favour of college students paying tuition fees. Blair favours keeping a lid on taxes, whereas most of his party would happily see taxes rise. Until this week, the pary figured that it was Blair that made them electable and so has accepted his pro-market positions. This is looking questionable now.
On social affairs, again, New Labour shows paradoxical traits - the Home Secretary (in charge of the criminal justice system and immigration) is very right wing, and seems to favour something akin to a mini-Patriot act. On personal morality questions, New Labour is probably far-left in US terms - relaxed about hash, equal rights for gays etc etc. Only paradox here is fox-hunting, against which they're passionately opposed and want an outright ban on hunting foxes (which Brits have been doing continuously since the 13th Century). In summary, Blair = Clinton, the Labour Party = Wellstone/Kucinich

Conservatives - nothing at all like Bush/Cheney. In favour of lower taxes, but don't advocate taxes as low as yours, in favour of bringing the market more into the National Health service, education, etc, ideologically in favour of limited government, are really the party of small businesses (New Labour has a lock on big corporations currently). Against further integration into Europe - for example is opposed to losing control of foreign policy, fiscal policy, immigration policy etc. Tories are very ambivalent about the whole EU enterprise, unlike Labour, who are generally in favour. Pro-police, pro-strong law and order, lock-em-up if they don't behave. On personal morality, there's both a libertarian wing and a "family values" wing - since Thatcher/Major, the libertarian wing seems to be in the ascendant. A nasty streak when it comes to immigration/"people of colour". Against students paying their tuition fees - in favour of government continuing to fund students through college.
In US terms, what does this sound like ? No idea!!!

Liberal Democrats - another party of contrasts.
Used to be equidistant between Labour and the Tories, but Blair's move to the centre has left the Lib Dems furthest to the left. They favour higher taxes than any of the other two, but also claim to believe ferverently in free markets. The bulk of their party membership would be Deaniacs however, so this is a really troublesome party to describe briefly. They are very pro-European, and anti-War. They also believe in localism in politics, unlike the far more London-based, centralised Labour and Conservative. Very liberal on law and order (which doesn't go down will in Britain), and also basically libertarian in social values (as are both other parties really).

The British National Party (BNP) - forget this lot of crypto-fascists - they generate more heat than light. They stand in wards with lots of immigrants in the hope of garnering poor white racist votes. They've recently been quite successful, getting a few ward councillors elected, but their clocks were pretty much cleaned on Thurs.

In summary, very difficult to equate any of our parties with your parties. On economics/taxation/size of goverment, all our parties probably favour more than either of your main parties, and on social policy, all three of our parties are probably more comfortable with eg gay marriage that the Dems.

Hope this helps
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. To add one more to this excellent summary
The UK Independence Party is expected to do quite well in the European elections (maybe 15% of the vote?) They want the UK out of the EU altogether, and have drawn many of the otherwise Tory voters who believe this, often fervently. The US equivalent is probably Pat Buchanan. They sometimes also say nasty things about immigration, like some of the Tories, but unlike the BNP, don't suggest things like expelling people already living here - and, also unlike the BNP, their leaders don't have convictions for violence, inciting race hatred, etc.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
16. I think that Blair is as liberal as british society can tolerate and that
he is trying to create a foundation upon which progress can be built in the future.

In my opinion, you can't have a thriving middle class without there being a lot of economic, political, and cultural power in the middle class, and there hasn't been in the UK. The UK has a ton of working class people but they haven't had the power to get a successful government which has been able to make deep, democratic changes to society because, basically, they're not sufficiently wealthy -- most middle class people live off an overdraft, which makes a lot of money (and vests lots of power) in the banks and salaries are kind of low, and people spend a lot of time working. Also, many social institutions are stacked againt people who work for a living.

Blair is pretty obviously committed (in my opinion) to vesting lots of power in the hands of people who work for a lving (rather than in corporations, the investor class, or people with inheritied wealth and power). Since '97, the people in the bottom quintile have seen the greates rate of increased wealth (IIRC) and salaries have gone up, and there's record low unemployment (for the last 30 years). All this stuff isn't an accident.

According to Sidney Blumenthal, this is the key thing that Clinton wanted to do to, knowing its democratizing influences. But Clinton knew that when you did that you don't create loyalty in your party (unless you have the skills FDR had, and get something like a WWII to prove your leadership qualities). Instead you create complaceny. People lose their sense of urgency to keep you in office.

I think that's sort of what's going on in the UK. Blair really has no choice but to deliver power to people who work for a living. It's the right thing to do. But I think people don't get what he's doing, and would rather talk about the war.

And I think, with the war, he really had no choice. Some European country had to go in a make sure the US wasn't going to cause such utter chaos that all of Europe would suffer tremendously high fuel prices that it would choke off economic development and prevent Europe from being a strong counter-balance to the power of American fascists, and it was Blair who was in the safest electoral position and who actually had an interest into standing up against America -- you can bet if the Tories were in power, they'd sell out Europe's economic security to help make Bush cronies wealthy.

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Atlanticist Donating Member (125 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Hmm, not sure I see things this way at all......
"Blair is as left wing as British society can tolerate"
I think Thursdays results suggest a change of leader to a "proper" Labour leader like Gordon Brown would go down better than Blair. I think you'd have been right in 1997, but given Labour have done a great job on the economy and social justice (I'd only give them a C on education and health), I think Brits could now vote for a mainstream Labour politician;

"There hasn't been alot of economic, political and cultural power in the middle classes"
On the contrary, since 1979, when Thatcher was swept to power by the petit bourgeoise, the middle class has had ALL the political power in Britain - remember, in 1997, in order for Blair to get elected, he had to openly pander to middle class Britain by promising no tax rises and to be tough on crime. Watch TV in Britain or read most of our daily papers to see how much high-brow culture has been eroded. Economically too, the good times are rolling for the middle classes, though taxes are creeping inexorably up with the redistributionist policies of Gordon Brown the Chancellor (Treasury Secretary);

"The UK has a ton of working class people"
Depends on your definition of a ton. We now have an underclass made up about 10-15% of the population who have long term social and economic problems, much fewer than 20 years ago. Many children of the old working class are now middle class. The working class problem in Britain is now depth rather than breadth

"Salaries for the middle classes are kind of low and people spend a lot of time at work"
The middle class covers a huge band and at the lower end, people probably earn c. $20k pa. That's only low if you're trying to buy a house. On your second point, Brits of all job types spend alot less time at work than Americans. Standard working week is 37.5 hours, and if you're a clerk in a bank, this is what you will work. You'll also likely get 25 days leave pa, 11 bank holidays, free health care, free (or almost free) college for your kids. Of course if you're a hot-shot investment banker in London, you'll work 80-100 hour weeks, but then more fool you.

"Blair is committed to the worker rather than corporations"
True to an extent, but Blair does not appeal at all to the British working class - he appeals to the aspiring middle class, just as Thatcher did. Gordon Brown is quietly redistributing wealth to the poor with big hikes in non-payroll taxes, but you wouldn't know it by listening to Blair - he's too keen to keep the middle classes onside and so would rather not tell them that his Chancellor is picking their pockets when they're not looking. Blair recognises the importance of big business to employment/global competitiveness etc and so has invested alot of time on so-called "prawn cocktail offensives" with the City of London to ensure they contribute to his election funds, though it's fair to say, business is pretty disillusioned with Labour due to the welter of regulation he's unleashed, and I think after a brief flirtation with Blairism, they're back with the Tories;

"Blair has no choice but to deliver power to working people"
Depends on your definition of "working people". Most people in Britain work. If you mean the working class, this is not true at all - all politicians in Britain want the middle class - nurses, teachers, firemen, bank clerks, car salesmen, policemen, call centre agents etc etc. To Labours credit, and this is where I completely agree with your post, they've not forgotten the dwindling poor working and unemployed class. They have actively redistributed. This wasn't politically necessary however;

"People don't get what he's doing and would rather talk about the war"
Peoples taxes have been going up for long enough now to know Labour is redistributing wealth to the poor (and hurrah for that I say). However, please remember, it's Gordon Brown who is getting credit for this and Tony Blair who is getting credit for the war. This is HIS war, not the Labour party's war. I think most people in Britain think you can have social justice and still be vehemently opposed to Tony Blair and his buddy buddy act with *

"With the war, he really had no choice"
I'm sorry but that's hogwash. He lied to his own parliamentary colleagues about WMD in order to squeak a vote through Parliament (only with the support of the Tories); he still hasn't released his Attorney Generals advice on the legality of the war; he promised the British people that he would only go to war with a second UN resolution - one that never came because Bush knew he could never get the votes; he promised us that by supporting Bush, it would affect a more equitable solution to Palestine etc etc. None of this has come to pass, and because of this, his place in history will be forever stained. He saw himself as a just Thatcher, bestriding the British political scene for a generation. Iraq instead has reduced him to soiled goods, and the sooner he's gone and replaced with a proper Labour politician, the better.

Other than that, I agree with everything you wrote!!!
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T_i_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. If Blair is as liberal as we can tolerate...
...how come the Labour party's only success in the local elections was the re-election of "Red" Ken Livingstone as Mayor of London?

And how come the Liberal Democrats (who are the the left of Blair) got a bigger percentage of the vote than Labour in the local elections?
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