Gender-Based Disparagement of Conservative Women

[neebob]

I'm sure I'll regret this, but in the 8 months I've been posting here I don't recall having seen a single post complaining about the constant stream of remarks about various conservative women's looks, body parts, and sexual habits. Why is that acceptable here? Am I the only one who finds it offensive? Am I not spending enough time here or reading enough posts to catch the complaints?

Now I don't feel a bit of sisterhood with Ann Coulter, Karen Hughes, Condoleezza Rice, Barbara Bush, or Laura Bush. Each is an embarrassment and a setback to women in her own way. Isn't there enough to criticize in the stupidity and outrageousness of these women's words and actions? Is it really necessary to trash their vaginas, too - just because they have them, I mean? Must you go for the labia? What does that add, besides vulgarity?

And don't you think all the comments about Ann Coulter and Karen Hughes being men might be a tiny bit offensive to transgendered people? I despise Ann Coulter as much as anybody, and yet I bristle every time I see a comment about her having an Adam's apple.

There are certainly a lot of thoughtless, inappropriate posts about men's sexual preferences on DU, and I see the people who make those posts getting flamed all the time. Why don't people get flamed for similar remarks about women's sexual preferences and habits, or for speculating on the qualities of their snatches?

Okay, so the other day I made a comment about George Bush deflecting an explosion with his massive, steel-reinforced package. And I'd be the first one to laugh at a joke about Babs protecting her family with her girdle or using Condi's hair as a prototype for cheap, effective combat helmets.

Actually, I might feel guilty for laughing about the latter, and I thought twice about posting it for a couple of reasons: (1) it could be perceived as racially insensitive, and (2) I have a huge problem with the war and the resulting need for helmets.

So sometimes it's hard to decide where to draw the line. I don't see that there is one where conservative women are concerned, and I think that's wrong. And just because the freepers do it to Hillary doesn't make it any more acceptable.

Flame away.

[noiretextatique]

1. actually...it happens from time to time

just wait. there have been several posts (and huge arguments) about the use of sexist language here.

[theivoryqueen]

2. okay - A) that's funny and B)

there are some women who are truly legitimate targets. Coulter and every Bushista deserve what they get. I haven't read any posts attacking their vaginas, but in the case of Bush women - it would have been a better world had they not reproduced.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

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[Eloriel]

65. No, we're not better than this

Sexism of the type described in this thread is gleefully allowed and supportered here at DU. GLEEFULLY. Some of us with more feminist sensitivities have complained, whined, pleaded, begged, even (in my case) LEFT DU (and I still refuse to contribute anymore) in part because of the sexism allowed and encouraged at DU, to no avail.

No, we're not better than this.

I alert on the things I see -- sometimes offensive posts are removed, more often they're not.

[Syncronaut Seven]

3. It really boils down to this

Many of us just don't like conservative women. It's the same dislike we share for conservative men with the added disbelief/dismay that comes from watching these creatures sell out a hundred years of struggle for equality, fought for by real women.

kinda makes me want to :puke:

[Elwood P Dowd]

4. Coulter and Hughes are women?

George Bush is a man?

[ugarte]

5. While in general I agree with you,

people like Ann Coulter are entitled to be on the receiving end of the same crap they dish.

[bluestateguy]

6. I don't lose sleep over this

Condoleezza (how ever the hell her stupid name is spelled) Rice, Ann Coulter, Karen Hughes and the Concerned Women for America are all women who have openly repudiated the goals and issue agenda of the feminist movement. Hence, I feel no particular obligation to confer upon them that very respect that feminists fought to bring to women.

[Eloriel]

66. And in doing so, you help retard the progress of ALL women

Thanks ever so much.

And who the hell are you to say what woman "deserves" not to be treated or referred to in sexist ways? Frankly, that's the whole point of women's rights, that all women deserve to be treated like full-fledged human beings with no "deserving" about it.

[donsu]

82. agree

if a woman consorts/aids the enemy (the criminal bushgang) in destroying america - I'm going to talk about her until she leaves the scene.

(I've been a feminist since I came out of my mother's womb 69 yrs. ago and took my first breath and started asking questions, like 'how come daddy can do X and you can't?' 'well, who made up these rules?' 'but, that's not fair.')

[Sapphocrat]

7. No flames here.

I'm just surprised you haven't run into a single complaint about sexist/"lookist"/et-cetera-ists posts. Fear not; you will.

P.S. Re Condi's hair: It is a helmet. What's racist about that? Bad hair crosses all racial, gender, etc., lines. I wouldn't dream of making fun of crossed eyes, or a gigantic nose, or morbid obesity -- but hair is something a person can change, so AFAIC, it's fair game.

P.P.S. I've also nicknamed Condi "Bobblehead," for the simple reason that she nods, constantly, to the point of distraction. The more she's backed into a corner on "Meet the Press" or wherever, the more frantically she nods, as if trying to convince herself of the lies she's about to utter. Nothing racist about that, either -- it's just a habit that serves as a rather reliable b.s. barometer. It's also annoying as can be; she may as well start drumming her fingers on the table.

[Leprechan29]

9. Hair Helmet

I don't have the link availible, but there was an article concerning a bad hair gene in chimps, so apparently it crosses species as well, not just race, ethnicity, etc.

[Sapphocrat]

11. Well, that would explain...

Btw, welcome to DU! :hi:

[Leprechan29]

28. It's a bunch of Minkeys!

Thanks for the welcome

[neebob]

44. That made me laugh, by the way

perhaps because I don't like monkeys as much as I do other animals. If I did, I'd be outraged on their behalf. Someone really should defend them.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

8. where to draw the line?

you mean in insults? There is no line.

[JDPriestly]

10. Neebob, you're right.

Truly liberal/progressive men treat women as their equals and don't obsess about women's looks period -- whether the women are conservative or liberal. Whether women or men, people in the political world should be judged by what they think, say and do and not how they look. Eleanor Roosevelt had a beautiful mind and soul. What she looked like is irrelevant. Even if Ann Coulter were the most physically attractive woman on earth, her mind and soul would still be hateful, mean and ugly. That's all that matters.

[TriMetFan]

12. just my .2

As a women I don't care if we make fun of these Stepford looking wives. I haven't forgotten how they made fun of the Democrat women. How can we forget how Rush made jokes and called a little girl (Chelsea Clinton) ugly. These are grown women that can take it. Its not like they are little girls.

[slinkerwink]

34. that kind of thinking is what led to Rush Limbaugh thinking that the

abuse at Abu Ghraib was nothing more than frat pranks and those "damned Iraqis" deserved it for bombing us on 9/11 :eyes:

[HuskerDem]

49. I find your post illogical slinkerwink - care to explain?

Where is the moral relativity?

So you believe that someone making fun of Ann Coulters supposed "mannishness" when AC has repeatedly and habitually ridiculed others for their looks..............

is the same as Rush Limbaugh excusing Anal rape and homicide as "frat pranks"?

Did all progressives sign some political Geneva Convention I am unaware of?

You go ahead and be a doormat if you like that. I choose not to. If a person seeks political spotlight and plays dirty they shouldn't be surprised when they end up with mud on their own face.

God bless all feisty, angry, pissed off Democrats! Fight the right wing zealots every tooth, step and nail in whatever language you can get them to understand.

[neebob]

51. Do you feel that not responding in kind to the stupid ravings

of people like Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh makes one a doormat? I dunno, I think it makes me a good person. I don't feel compelled to respond at all, most of the time. Then again, I don't take it personally, as if they're talking about me. My outrage comes from knowing lots of other people - my mother, for one and to my eternal shame - buy into the crap they spew and keep criminals in power and make the world a worse place for everyone - for some, far worse than for others.

[HuskerDem]

60. I wasn't trying to ignite your eternal shame..............

But this crew came in here WITH NO FREAKIN MANDATE.

I was a "wait and see" myself but you know what? The tread ran out when I found out the draft boards will be operational this early summer. The first dry run will happen in September. Look it up.

[slinkerwink]

56. I'm not going to attack people based on their gender...I attack

them based on their foolish acts of political incompetence. However, when it comes to sexism, we're supposed to be "progressives" but we think nothing of using gender epithets against women and rationalize it by saying they're "republicans."

[HuskerDem]

59. So just to clarify, when Rush called Chelsea the "White House Dog"

We should not mention his large jiggly ass or the fact that he was HIGH for most of his career.

Is that right?

[Eloriel]

68. You're missing the point ENTIRELY -- it's not about not insulting them

it's about not using SEXIST TERMS to insult them.

Get it?

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[formernaderite]

86. So you're proposing we stoop down to the same level right?

I don't use physical descriptions to insult people in general, and do find it strange that this place sounds just as repulsive as any right wing site at times. Politics is one thing, but stooping to the lower rung and rationalizing it is juvenile and showcases personal latent discrimination.

[Eloriel]

67. Sure they deserve opprobrium aplenty -- but sexist insults

hurt ALL women.

If the left won't support women's rights -- including ALL women's rights NOT to be referred to or insulted in sexist ways -- then where are we women? No where, absolutely no where.

If you can call Condi or Coulter or any other rightwing female nut a "bitch" becuase "they deserve it," then you can call me a bitch when I do something you disapprove of or that annoys you. You can call your co-worker, your sister or mother a bitch for the same reason. You give permission to yourself and everyone else to think, speak and act against women -- for specific reasons ("she deserved it" or "was asking for it") or for no reason at all.

The remaining sexism in our culture (and the same applies to racism) depends on this very foundational "support" for sexism. And that includes the horrific stats of rapes, domestic violence incouding murder, pay inequities, war on reproductive freedom, on and on. IT ALSO INCLUDES the racism and sexism inherent in this war we're fighting. People have been horrified at what has happened at Abu Ghraib, and all the other war crimes the U.S. has been engaged in. But too many of them have failed to realize that all this is directly linked to both racism and sexism in our very own culture.

Sexist insults against conservative women or ANY women serve to anchor all the societal ills that really do matter in women's lives (and too many of their deaths). There is NOTHING stopping DUers from using non-sexist insults aplenty against them, all day long. They choose instead to engage in their own personal supply of sexism, the sexism they reserve for theirselves and are unwilling to give up in favor of women's full equality.

It's disgusting.

[Nikia]

72. Well said

I agree with you 100%.

[gpandas]

73. although i'm lurking later...

i wanted to thank you for a well written post, a thing of rarity on du

[smirkymonkey]

87. Thank you for speaking up.

I have almost given up on complaining about the sexism at DU because a)nothing ever seems to get done about it, and b)you end up being the brunt of vicious attacks for being "a man hater", "too sensitive" or a host of other nasty epithets.

Still, it pisses me off to no end. I wish we had a women's forum here or that there was a Women's DU somewhere where we could post freely about the sexism here and in the political/social realm. I really feel that there has been a (conservative?) backlash lately not just toward women, but toward women's values (in general - not all women are kind, compassionate, cooperative and many men are those things) - more of a feminine paradigm vs. the more masculine values of aggression, competition, dominance, etc. (Again, not all men embrace these values - I am speaking in generalities/archetypes).

I just had to vent, because I am pretty tired of seeing this crap in a supposed a liberal/democratic haven.

[Tom Kitten]

13. while I agree these women are fair game for criticism

I agree bringing their sexual aspects into it are crass and irrelevant to any sort of discourse here... I know, the repugs have a thing for the Clenis but that doesn't mean we have to discuss any of these women's vaginas...Definitely a turn-off for me, it borders on misogany , to attack people (who are so open to attack from other areas) because of their sex is basically stupid and anti-intellectual...I really could NOT care less about Anne or Karen or Condi's sex-lives!

Dropping the sex-bomb is risky because it's a dirty bomb. Nothing good results from it.

My humble opinion.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

14. Laura Bush

I agree that Coulter and Hughes are fair game due to the nonsense they spout. But Laura Bush shouldn't be, as she doesn't give hate-speeches. I feel sorry for Laura Bush, who George W. refers to as "the lump in the bed". I think she shouldn't put up with that crap, especially from her husband.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

16. Laura doesn't offend me as much as Coulter and Hughes, but

I think it is horrible the way they used her to act like they cared about the rights of women in Afghanistan, it was nothing but a phony P.R. ploy, because they did nothing for those women before or since. And it's ridiculous how she is such a front for education and reading when Bush has been nothing but harmful to education.

I thought nothing of Hillary Clinton when she first came on the scene, but I heard her giving a foreign policy speech a few months ago, and thought, "Wow, she is actually quite brilliant!" She took so much undeserved crap from the Republicans and the media and still acted with dignity and intelligence and I have come to respect her. After all that, it's offensive to have the press try to present Laura as someone admirable in comparison.

[neebob]

18. Laura Bush doesn't get any breaks from me, either

even though she's perceived as being nicer than the others. I think she's an incredibly bad role model by virtue of her mindless deference to her husband. I resent paying for her activities - whatever they are, other than sitting around looking starstruck by her disgusting husband. She's complicit in all of his crimes.

It does bother me, though, when people start in on her looks and clothing, as if being more fashionable would make her less of an idiot.

[Philostopher]

31. Um ... her clothing is the only thing I'll criticize.

Lumpy, I mean. Because she's the wife of ostensibly the most powerful man in the free world, she damned well ought to dress like it. I guess the thing that sets me off most is, I remember what a massive load of shit Republicans blew Rosalyn Carter for dressing plainly back in the seventies. They made fun of every damned article of clothing that woman wore -- and they made the exact same remarks about them that most of us make who criticize Laura Bush's clothes now. For a woman with that kind of money, who's seen in public as often as she is, and who's at least nominally representative of the United States, she really should dress like she has a mirror that shows her body below the chin. Sorry, I know not everybody agrees with that, but I can't help but hold her to the same standard Republicans held Rosalyn Carter to. End of story, for me, anyway.

[slinkerwink]

41. you're still being sexist by criticizing what a woman should wear

because you're expecting her to conform to a societal gender construct of what women should wear.

[BiggJawn]

62. NO-ONE should wear Herculon, Slink....

Herculon is for sofas, not women's suits.

Men should not wear Herculon, either.

Clothing made from Herculon crosses all "gender lines"..

OK, better?

[donsu]

84. oh please - get a grip

saying Laura dresses crappy is not sexist.

[slinkerwink]

91. it does since many people criticize women on what they wear

and use that as an insult against them because they don't "conform" to a gender construct of what a woman should wear.

[neebob]

92. It is if you notice how many powerful men

go around in bad suits with bad hair and get few if any comments.

[ClassWarrior]

101. Hey, I agree with your sentiment...

...but I think you're seeing something that just doesn't exist. If we don't call Ann Coulter and Karen Hughes bitches, what should we call them? Assholes? Bastards? Pricks? Some words are just gender-specific - and apparently invective is particularly so.

And we don't insult men for bad hair and bad suits?? How quickly you forgot Trent Lott and James Trafficant...

[neebob]

102. I did not say

no one ever here ever insults a man for bad hair or a bad suit." What I said was, "... notice how many powerful men go around in bad suits with bad hair and get few if any comments." I also did not say anything about bitches. :)

[ClassWarrior]

104. Sorry - someone else said something about bitches.

There are many powerful women who go around in bad suits with bad hair and get few if any comments. I could name a few right now, but I don't have any reason to do so. Which is probably the reason they get few if any comments.

[neebob]

106. Yes, they did

and I'm rethinking my own use of that word and considering whether I should take more offense at how often it is thrown around.

As for the powerful women who go around in bad suits with bad hair, the comments they get will far outnumber those of the men.

[neebob]

47. I would find her more disgusting

if I thought she cared as much as you do about how she looks and spent a lot of money on clothes. It would make her that much more useless in my opinion. And who says she doesn't spend a lot of money on clothes? Maybe she just has bad expensive taste.

[Philostopher]

53. Look, as I said, not everybody agrees.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine.

My bottom line is, 'first lady' is largely a ceremonial position. Even Dubya's mother made an effort with her clothes. Most first ladies don't rely on their own taste -- they purchase their taste. It's because the first lady occupies a ceremonial position that her clothes matter. I'm sure she spends plenty -- does she have to wear clothes that don't fit her properly, and in colors that aren't flattering? Cripes. Like the Dim Son or not, his wife represents America when she goes out of the country. I'd like for her to have a sense of that. I don't care how much money she spends on it -- at least she could buy stuff that fits.

Or not. Maybe she should just wear sweats all the time. That would be inexpensive and not the least bit pretentious.

[Eric J in MN]

29. if you're talking about a poem

Laura Bush later admitted she lied when she said George W. wrote that poem.

[BiggJawn]

64. OK, here's a sick confession....

I actually find "Stepford 1" sort of attractive...
Sorry, I know, but I like full-figured women, and she's got one.....

If she'd just stop wearing those sofa covers!

On further consideration....
Oh, my, that was AWFULLY Sexist of me, wasn't it? Expressing just a teenie bit of LUST for a member of the opposite sex? Oh, how un-enlightened! <grumble>

[thebigidea]

15. oh, that's not true at all

"I'm sure I'll regret this, but in the 8 months I've been posting here I don't recall having seen a single post complaining about the constant stream of remarks about various conservative women's looks, body parts, and sexual habits."

In almost EVERY single thread about Laura and the twins, more than a single complaint crops up along those lines.

[neebob]

22. I don't read most posts about the twins

because I don't find them the least bit interesting. But now that you mention it, I have seen complaints about criticism of Laura's wardrobe.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. You must have missed my posts then

because I have taken exception to the "man" coulter name several times.

[neebob]

20. Oh, I know I've missed a lot of posts

I read less than half of whatever's on the board in the hour or two I spend here on any given day. I just thought it was odd that I'd never seen a complaint. I'm glad to know others are bothered by the low blows to women.

[HFishbine]

19. Comparing Ann Coulter to a man

is an insult to men.

[Kelvin Mace]

21. To be fair to men...

Some of the most vicious comments about these women, I've heard from other women, i.e. skank, slut, cow, whore, along with speculation about sexual habits.

[neebob]

23. No doubt

I never assumed and didn't say disparaging conservative women on the basis of their gender is something only men do.

[slinkerwink]

36. exactly----we do perpetrate our own form of sexism against other women

I just wish that some women here would stop what they're saying and really think about the ramifications and the history behind their slurs against other women by attack them on their sex.

[slappypan]

24. Ann Coulter

"Originally, I was the only female with long blonde hair. Now, they all have long blonde hair." — Ann Coulter

"I am emboldened by my looks to say things Republican men wouldn't." — Ann Coulter

Miss Coulter has specifically stated that because she is (in her opinion) hot stuff, she is entitled to say absolutely anything, no matter how vile. Since she believes physical appearance is so important, and entitles one to special privileges, I say we mock her appearance cruelly and relentlessly. Particularly since she is not "all that." After all, she brought up the subject.

[neebob]

26. Uh-huh

Beauty is as beauty does, as my mean grandma used to say by way of informing me I wasn't all that. I happen to think Ann Coulter is nice looking. But just because SHE said so doesn't create a license to make all kinds of sexual comments. It's because she's good looking that people do that, and it's demeaning to all women regardless of what kind of person Ann Coulter is. Yeah, she's a hellish harpy - but it ain't OK to say she has a smelly kooch or a penis.

[slappypan]

27. well then by all means

Go ahead and try to engage Ann's "ideas."

[slinkerwink]

38. the same poster doesn't like Ann's "ideas" but hates the sexist

comments being aimed at a woman, regardless of the political background of that woman.

[troublemaker]

32. Please believe me on this...

Most vicious things people say about Ann Coulter are not instances of people using a woman's good looks against her because to most people she is painful to see. Really. She is transcendently ugly... dangerous to gaze upon except perhaps in a burnished sheild... She's Peter Cushing in unconvincing drag.

Being ugly doesn't make her a bad person, but it probably helped. The Republicans have a sickness whereby they enrich and fetishize any blond headed creature who *may* have a vagina. Look at Kelly Ann Fitzpatrick or that wildly asymmetrical scarecrow that used to be Ashcroft's press flak or the late unlamented Barbara Olsen...

In normal life Coulter would be a very unsightly woman, but by mouthing the vilest Nazi left-overs she has become a sex symbol to the right. So her hideousness has contributed to her evil life choices. For someone like her the choice to hang out with Republicans is like the badly scarred woman in the Star Trek pilot episode MENAGERIE choosing to remain on the planet of illusions where she could be beautiful. It's sad, really.

[neebob]

42. I like the phrase "evil life choices."

[slinkerwink]

37. exactly!

[Eloriel]

69. Why don't you criticize her own sexism instead?

Point out and denounce as sexist what she's doing along those lines. That would be far more appropriate, and it would definitely be better for ALL women.

[leesa]

25. Stick around. You will see threads complaining of this periodically

Mostly, I don't think people should be so hyper-sensitive about it. We are all rude, crude and insensitive at times, it is what makes us people.

[slinkerwink]

39. no, it's not. What makes us good humans is our ability to empathize

the ability to reason, and the ability to better ourselves morally, spiritually, and politically. We have every right to be sensitive about it, and it does NOT excuse what people say just because their statements are formed on prejudices.

[Curious Dave]

30. Would saying....

All repug women should be sterilized be considered disparaging? :)

[slinkerwink]

40. um, yes.

Republican women have as much right to have children and access to birth control as Democrat women do.

[slinkerwink]

33. I've complained many times, but it's no use in a male-dominated forum

like this one.

[HuskerDem]

50. I for one have no problem saying Barbaric Bush should have been

sown SHUT 60 years ago. Would have saved the world so much death and pain.

I would rather be honest than a "victim".

[slinkerwink]

57. Great----be sexist all you want! no one's stopping you because

sexist epithets is encouraged here in DU.

[HuskerDem]

58. I'll continue being honest and you can continue to empathize with

B. Bush who said

"Why should we hear about body bags and deaths," Barbara Bush said on ABC's "Good Morning America" on March 18, 2003. "Oh, I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?"

[slinkerwink]

79. apparently you didn't get the memo that I don't call people gender

epithets but I will say that Barbara Bush is a retard in that case. :eyes:

[Bunny]

96. Could we not call people by ANY epithets?

I don't like use of the word "retard". It's very disparaging to people with mental retardation. I've worked with people with disabilities for 24 years - they don't like being called "retards".

[slinkerwink]

97. fine....then nincompoop is even better.

[Eloriel]

74. and sometimes, as in that post, downright misogyny n/t

[juajen]

35. Well, I took up for one and posted it.

I can't remember when, but Laura Bush was attacked for her clothes, hair and makeup in a particular photo. I thought the criticism was unjust and unfounded and said so. However, I really would not do the same for Coulter. She brings it on herself with her rabid hate-mongering.

[neebob]

43. Comments on clothes and hair don't bug me

as much as the sexual stuff. Which is not to say I don't think it's stupid, unless you're talking about Jan Crouch or someone who looks completely ridiculous. I think she does it on purpose, to attract viewers.

I'm not saying take up for them, either - just that there's enough to criticize without resorting to crude and sexually demeaning remarks.

[Eloriel]

77. No no. THIS IS THE CRUX OF THE MATTER

If a woman -- any woman -- can "lose" her right to be treated in non-sexist ways, can lose her right to be treated in ways OTHER THAN based on her gender, then ALL WOMEN HAVE NO RIGHTS AT ALL.

Human rights, including "women's rights," are rights that apply to every human being -- Rights are NOT benefits awarded on the basis of good behavior, nor special privileges which can be yanked when someone misbehaves.

No one here is objecting to criticizing these women to your heart's content -- JUST NOT IN SEXIST WAYS. If Anne Coulter's right not to be called sexist things can be yanked because of her behavior, so can mine, so can any woman's -- which means in YOUR mind, women HAVE no rights. They're conditional. They're based on behavior. Or perhaps your mood.

If women are to be treated equally, NO WOMAN, no matter how vile (and there are plenty of them out there, and not a few of them right here) should be called sexist names or treated in sexist ways. Doing so undermines the struggle for equality for ALL of us, including on a global scale.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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[TiredTexan]

46. Women who are rabid republicans like Ann Coulter

suffer from the Stockholm syndrome. They've surrendered their autonomy and integrity in a bargain with their abusers. They receive in return extra privileges from the men around them. They are truly sleeping with the enemy, and relish it for the extra power they gain.

I, like most feminists I know, view these women as pathetic and dangerous. On the one hand, they seem little better than slaves who assisted their owners by turning in other slaves who were escaping. On the other, however, they elicit a confusing cocktail of both pity and contempt. Their sexuality is quite difficult to avoid because they are betraying not just their daughters, sisters and mothers, but also their very identities as women. And ultimately, this internal self-hatred spews outwards in attacks on the women around them, against women's rights, and against liberals as protectors of women. They are both prostitutes and traitors, and in some small place inside that can't be silent or false, they know this. Hence the anger and viciousness. It also makes it very easy to fight fire with fire. It always is with republicans, no matter their stripe.

Nonetheless, we liberals are supposed to take the high ground. Fighting back is fine, and absolutely necessary, but we should fight fairly regardless of their tactics. We should be tough, strong, angry and persistent. But fair. Obviously, this is easier said than done, and I for one, have often lost my ability to do this given the persistence and viciousness of these female misogynists.

So, although I understand why we are sexist in our language about these women, I agree with your post completely. Thanks for the objective reality check. I certainly need these often.

Good post.

[neebob]

48. I doubt Ann Coulter ever had any integrity to surrender

She's obviously intelligent and well educated, but she goes around saying the stupidest, snottiest, most insane things she can think of to say - things I doubt she actually believes because they're so stupid, no one with half a brain and a decent education would consider such nonsense - and she's become obscenely rich doing it. She's the female equivalent of Rush Limbaugh. I think she's a psychopath.

I know something about Stockholm Syndrome, and I just can't conceive of it in Ann Coulter's case. Laura Bush and other Stepford-wifelike creatures? Sure, it's possible.

I totally agree with your second and third paragraphs.

[FizzFuzz]

54. great reply, I've thought about the Stockholm thing in this context too!

I also see that as the original post says, sexually explicit diatribes are generally reserved as a means of venting against women only.

Why can't these regressive women be puked upon for their hateful views? Would anyone stoop to nigger talk about Colin Powell? No, I didn't think so, because the truth of race respect has lodged in the hearts of most people at a deep level that doesn't even need to be consciously thought about anymore. It is an axiom that you just don't slag an African American jerk with ugly racial epithets.
I always like to turn the tables to try and get people to see this point...if you would insult the evil thug men by referring to, oh..pus-dripping members, for example, then sure go ahead and give women the same tender mercy. But a special brand of punishment reserved only for women...not ok.

geez, I feel like I comment here often about sexism; even recently, I pointed out a byline I found sexist because it used the tired old women as the butts of sexual jokes cliche. I got shot down for taking the name of Monty Python in vain. I replied by illustrating my point with a purposeful racial insult, switching the boob joke to black-bashing language, just to show how utterly wrong both types of insult are. After all, I figure if people can grasp the logic that "A" is reprehensible, and "A" is like "B", then it follows that "B" is also reprehensible. It always seems to me that sexually demeaning talk that dehumanizes women its invisible, even for sensitive people who find racism revolting. But no response. I hate it when a good point spins silently into oblivion.

Sexism is so embedded in everyday life, too many people don't see it--So I point it out anytime I can, but I feel like I've become a zealot making a freakin career out of taking people to task all the time. :nopity: OK, boo-hooing done.

[neebob]

76. Excellent point about racism

although I'm not so sure it's truth that's lodged in the hearts of most people - more like fear of disapproval if you ask me.

I like the term regressive women. It's just as regressive to demean them sexually.

[FizzFuzz]

105. hmm, I think there's some of that fear of disapproval too,

sometimes anyway. It depends on the individual and the social context and all that. But ya gotta have a large base of possible disaproval to be afraid of before it will start to make a difference in behavior. So what starts a widespread change of viewpoint like that?

How did belief that racial slurs are wrong get a foothold? Why has similar widespread rejection of sexism not occured? Just things I wonder about late at night.

[Eloriel]

78. Excellent -- not Stockholm Syndrome but rather they're

what we used to call "Queen Bees." They're perfectly happy to make it in a man's world, gather to themselves all the perks and benefits, and then do what they can to keep other women out so they can remain in place unchallenged.

They're also referred to as Patriarchy's Women. I think the Jungian analyst Jean Shinola Bolen, M.D. wrote in her book, "Goddesses in Everywoman" about this particular archetype. It certainly explained people like Phyllis Schlaffly and others to me when I read it years and years ago.

[kaitykaity]

52. It's a fine line, but like the saying goes,

I know it when I see it. When somebody talks about
wanting to squeeze a certain media whore's "titty,"
I know I see it.

And I'm with you, I can't stand it.

[mitchum]

55. A bitch is a bitch is a bitch

[Eloriel]

93. Thanks for making your own cherished sexism perfectly clear

REAL ugly. But you knew that.

[mitchum]

99. ...and thank you!

I guess both of our preconceptions have been confirmed :)

[FizzFuzz]

103. Don't be pissed Eloriel; after all, he's paraphrasing a woman

Gertrude Stein ;)

[Bandit]

63. You must realize that a certain portion of posters here are just teenagers

There are a lot of very immature posts here. I just hope they will learn from the elder posters and get over their childishness.

[slinkerwink]

81. I'm not going to excuse their behavior because they're teenagers

and many of those who make sexist posts are in fact mature adults.

[Nikia]

70. I think that it is sexist

I am against posts that attack a woman's appearance, clothes, or womanhood. That isn't right. That would be like attacking Rice or Powell for their race.
Wait, that happens here too.
Such things are immature and against liberal core values that don't belong on a liberal political message board.

[seabeyond]

71. the bottom line

just about all male gender just about universal; across the world, there is conversation and behavior in the denigration of women. and opposed to becoming more aware and respectful, over the last ten years males have been on such a fearful track of bringing women down every way they can in so obvious fear of loss of power they have enjoyed from beginning of time.

[msmcghee]

75. Neebob - you started a cool thread.

I read most of it this morning at 4:00 AM when I couldn't sleep. I finally got to sleep thinking about it. Now, I'm up for the day and there's more - so I feel like jumping in.

Above, you said - She's obviously intelligent and well educated, but she goes around saying the stupidest, snottiest, most insane things she can think of to say - things I doubt she actually believes because they're so stupid, no one with half a brain and a decent education would consider such nonsense - and she's become obscenely rich doing it.

Please consider that a lot of educated people believe many stupid things, things that don't stand the slightest test of logic. Like scientists who proclaim a belief in creationism or intelligent design and see no contradiction with the scientific method that underlies their vocation.

I suspect at the least, she does believe most of what she says. At worst, she doesn't even consider whether the things she says are true. Like an actor, she's only concerned with the effect they have on others.

But . . I appreciate your main point. When we get really mad and want to insult someone, we often accuse them of the thing that we would be most afraid of in ourselves.

Many people use sex or gender disparagement for that reason I think - because, living in a culture where they are bombarded from an early age with advertising that offers products that imply their lack of sexual attractiveness, deep down they are insecure about their own sex or gender expression.

OTOH it can be very offensive to others. If you say that Ann is a man, then you imply that genetic females who identify or act male, are despicable. The implied insult is the most hurtful. I have many friends who are in that category - and none of them are despicable. They are very nice folks for the most part, who quietly bear these insults that are so common in our culture.

[neebob]

89. I'm glad you like my thread

and I know educated people believe stupid things. Just last night, I caught some lawyer doing a Q&A on one of those religious news-type shows saying this "new discovery" that no two people have the same DNA proves that Darwinian evolution doesn't make any sense.

The host of the show was like, "Yeah, it makes no sense whatsoever!" So the lawyer said it a few more times, and it seemed like he really believed it.

It doesn't seem that way with Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh.

On edit: I didn't mean to say Rush Limbaugh is well educated. I know nothing of his education; I just think he and Ann Coulter are very comparable.

[flewellyn]

83. Hi, first poster here...

I think you have a very salient point, here. We Democrats should not be stooping to the behavior that the Right Wingers engage in. Arguments of "well, they did it too!" don't hold, nor do "they're fair game because of how they act" excuses. I say, we should hold ourselves to a higher standard of behavior than the Republicans do. We're better than they are! If we hold the moral high ground in these discussions, we can demonstrate to other people the rightness of our cause; if the facts are on our side (as they are), we shouldn't need to resort to name-calling.

Besides, mocking the dress, hairstyle, or appearance of Condi Rice, Ann Coulter, Karen Hughes, et al, is unnecessary. What these women say, what they believe in, is damning enough as it is. I don't care what George Bush or John Ashcroft or Donald Rumsfeld look like, it's their policies and politics that scare the ever-loving crap out of me. So should it be with their female partners in crime.

[alarcojon]

88. Welcome to DU, flewellyn!

[alarcojon]

85. I agree with you

Coulter and company are rich for attack on so many fronts, and it lowers the level of discourse to pepper our attacks on them with sexist slurs.

One of the things I love about this site is the irreverent sense of humor. Sure, I've laughed at some of the sexist jokes - I'm human. However, as progressives we need to continue to reflect on how our language affects others. While keeping the site hilarious, of course!B-)

To me, jokes about clothes are a gray area. Clothes and looks are intimately related. Still, there is such a thing as plain old bad taste, and it can be hilarious. Laura Bush does wear sofa covers!

Lastly, I appreciate your honesty in addressing jokes about Condi's hair. Yes, she wears a "conk", which is widely associated with African-Americans who want to look "less black". And conks do frequently end up looking like helmets. Still, the joke is about the shape of her hair, and certainly I have seen whites, latinos, and asians with helmet-head.

[noiretextatique]

90. she has a perm....many women of all races perm their hair

and it's not necessarily to look "less black" (that's what michael jackson tried to do :eyes: )...in some ways, it was "the standard"...somewhat of a requirement for black, professional women. in some ways...it still is. when i visit my relatives in texas, for example, i am usually one of the few women with natural hair...in the entire city :D cynthia mckinney, for example, caught some hell for her crowrows, and even though i live in oakland, i thought long and hard about locking my hair again while i was looking for a job. dreadlocks are more acceptable here than many places though.
condi just needs a new hairdresser...her style is outdated.

[alarcojon]

100. You're right

which is why I was careful to say only that it's widely perceived as trying to look "less black". I shouldn't have used the word "conk", though.

Yes, her style is outdated. Something about it just doesn't look quite right to me. But that's not a racial thing.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

94. SENSITIVITY Is -- or Should Be -- the Key Here

This is supposed to be a progressive-thinking board. We ought to be providing a place where women (and other oppressed groups) feel safe and welcome. Gender-based slurs, regardless of who they're directed at, are completely inappropriate IMO and help to create a hostile environment towards women.

I know that not all women posting here care about this issue, but frankly that completely misses the point. A sizable proportion of the community is highly offended by the slurs, and that should be enough. If people here TRULY CARE about being progressive, about walking the walk instead of just talking the talk, those people should RESPECT that.

They SURE AS HELL shouldn't be mocking them, or trying to dismiss their concerns (which is, in itself, sexist IMO), or holding up free speech as some kind of faux shield to disrespectful and boorish behavior.

DTH

[msmcghee]

95. Right on!

Wish I said that.

:toast:

[slinkerwink]

98. ditto!

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moderator]

108. Locking.....

If you feel that a particular post is sexist, please
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DU Moderator