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Egalitarian Zetetic Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:25 PM
Original message
Mother Teresa Fascist Enabler
Just supports my claim that religion will always do more harm than good.

Accepted money from Haiti dictator Baby Doc Duvalier

Believed it was "beautiful for the poor to accept their lot"

Hostile to birth control (for orthodox Catholics, this is a 'pro')

Believed Aids sufferers were being punished for sexual misbehaviour

Endorsed primitive medical regime at her order's clinics






Interviews
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/hitchens_16_4...

http://www.lipmagazine.org/articles/featpostel_56_p.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,389009...


An Article
http://slate.msn.com/id/2090083
----------------snip----------------

During the deliberations over the Second Vatican Council, under the stewardship of Pope John XXIII, MT was to the fore in opposing all suggestions of reform. What was needed, she maintained, was more work and more faith, not doctrinal revision. Her position was ultra-reactionary and fundamentalist even in orthodox Catholic terms. Believers are indeed enjoined to abhor and eschew abortion, but they are not required to affirm that abortion is "the greatest destroyer of peace," as MT fantastically asserted to a dumbfounded audience when receiving the Nobel Peace Prize*. Believers are likewise enjoined to abhor and eschew divorce, but they are not required to insist that a ban on divorce and remarriage be a part of the state constitution, as MT demanded in a referendum in Ireland (which her side narrowly lost) in 1996. Later in that same year, she told Ladies Home Journal that she was pleased by the divorce of her friend Princess Diana, because the marriage had so obviously been an unhappy one

This returns us to the medieval corruption of the church, which sold indulgences to the rich while preaching hellfire and continence to the poor. MT was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction. And she was a friend to the worst of the rich, taking misappropriated money from the atrocious Duvalier family in Haiti (whose rule she praised in return) and from Charles Keating of the Lincoln Savings and Loan. Where did that money, and all the other donations, go? The primitive hospice in Calcutta was as run down when she died as it always had beenshe preferred California clinics when she got sick herselfand her order always refused to publish any audit. But we have her own claim that she opened 500 convents in more than a hundred countries, all bearing the name of her own order. Excuse me, but this is modesty and humility?

The rich world has a poor conscience, and many people liked to alleviate their own unease by sending money to a woman who seemed like an activist for "the poorest of the poor." People do not like to admit that they have been gulled or conned, so a vested interest in the myth was permitted to arise, and a lazy media never bothered to ask any follow-up questions. Many volunteers who went to Calcutta came back abruptly disillusioned by the stern ideology and poverty-loving practice of the "Missionaries of Charity," but they had no audience for their story. George Orwell's admonition in his essay on Gandhithat saints should always be presumed guilty until proved innocentwas drowned in a Niagara of soft-hearted, soft-headed, and uninquiring propaganda.

One of the curses of India, as of other poor countries, is the quack medicine man, who fleeces the sufferer by promises of miraculous healing. Sunday was a great day for these parasites, who saw their crummy methods endorsed by his holiness and given a more or less free ride in the international press. Forgotten were the elementary rules of logic, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. More than that, we witnessed the elevation and consecration of extreme dogmatism, blinkered faith, and the cult of a mediocre human personality. Many more people are poor and sick because of the life of MT: Even more will be poor and sick if her example is followed. She was a fanatic, a fundamentalist, and a fraud, and a church that officially protects those who violate the innocent has given us another clear sign of where it truly stands on moral and ethical questions.






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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Here we go another bash Mother Teresa thread.
:eyes:
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Someone just discovered the hidden secret behind her
Happens every once in a while. Someone new finds out about the fact that there is some question about her. Feels it has to be told. I understand the desire. But it has a net negative effect. People's images are well established. Its going to take a bit more to shake their belief that she was a good person.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I never thought she was a saint. As a Catholic she followed the
dogma, no matter how much anyone might disagree with her, it's still the Catholic dogma. She didn't molest altar boys and she didn't personally gain from what she did. How many of us are willing to work with the homeless and dying? Not too many I would say.
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Egalitarian Zetetic Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Pat robertson has a lot of african charities and missionaires<nt>
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. and he set up a deal with charles taylor of liberia to make money off the
diamond exchange. Please tell me how many millions of dollars did Mother Theresa make in this way.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. So doesn't he deserve a thread more than MT?n/t
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RummyTheDummy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
33. Does he now?
What you meant to say he has a number of diamond mining operations in Africa posing as "charities". Get a clue.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Its not so easy
The problem is so much is tied up in perception. The perception is that she helped the poor. But the reality may be far removed from this perception. Many people certainly sent her money to help the poor but the bulk of this wound up in the Vatican's coffers. While I agree that molestation is certainly horrible, I consider the selling of false hope or redirection of aid given to be a rather grievous act as well.

She was a complex individual made more so by the fame that surrounded her. I will say she was human. Capable of both great and dispicable acts. Beyond that I cannot say for certain.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. She was a nun. They are capable of great charity and a lot of meaness.
I know I lived with nuns a good part of my early life. I got to know what made them tick. Actually, I think they keep the Catholic church propped up without many thanks for the work they do. Double entry accounting is not a strong suite with the Church, so there was probably money sent to the Vatican, but you will never know because they won't tell you.

I don't think she deserves the meaness of this post. Catholic charities as a whole operate like hers. I can think of a lot more graft and corruption that goes on with the Pat Robertson/Jerry Fallwell crowd and they would never hug a leper or a person dying of aids.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. The anger towards her
Is not just about the money. Again it is a matter of perception. Those that oppose her are aware of stories of her refusing to allow those suffering to have access to sedatives or medicine. The suggestion is that she was there to witness their suffering, not ease it. As neither of us were present or can know her state of mind it must remain a debatable issue.
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Isere Donating Member (920 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
39. Snooze...
How boring.
How yesterday.
How off topic.

How verging on trolldom.

Better we should be discussing the newest incarnation of Christopher Hitchens.

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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. she had an exorcism for insomnia
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MissRegina Donating Member (178 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Mother Teresa showed more compassion
for people that I will ever be able to. I admire her work.
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Egalitarian Zetetic Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I guess hatians arent people<nt>
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Not only that there are many other religious leaders far more
deserving of the above criticism than her.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. "compassion"? how so? (eom)
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MissRegina Donating Member (178 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Never Afraid to Hug or Smile at Someone
I think the simple act of talking with and holding an AIDS victim is compassionate. Most folks wouldn't even come within 100 feet of them. She wasn't afraid to show God's love to anybody. Only my opinion. I respect her.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. A smile is a wonderous thing, and contagious
It costs us so little and yet it can promote so many wonderful things in others. A smile is the single best greeting we can open with. Try to smile at at least one stranger a day. It makes the world a better place. Really. :)
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crossroads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. IMO, she was more compassionate than the Pope!
Just an opinion. What do I know? I'm not even Catholic but I never saw the Pope tend the sick! I greatly admire the lady!
:shrug:
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. Get your asbestos pants on quick
the flamage is coming!

I personally wont argue with you - to my mind Theresa was a bigoted old cow who kept people in pain and piss poor conditions while her order had literally tonnes of cash. When SHE was sick it was off to the most expensive and pretigious hospitals the west could provide - where did all the money donated to her order go????
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Egalitarian Zetetic Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. of course flames will come, facts upset the faithful.<nt>
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. So does a lack of sensitivity
when you are attempting to burst their beliefs. Cut them some slack. Their perception of the woman is that she was a truly kind and inspirational individual. This image of her leads many to do good works in their own way. To dismantle it so harshly is to do more harm than good.

Yes promote the truth. But do so with an understanding of the feelings of those you wish to show it to.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. promoting the truth would require him not quoting a liar
like Hitchens
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. One of the secrets of debating
Is always leave the opponent a way to exit gracefully. If you do not they have only one option and that is to strike back at you as harshly as they can.

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Egalitarian Zetetic Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. if thats your belief then you respect the right wing? <nt>
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Your choice of words depends on what you wish to accomplish
Edited on Tue May-25-04 09:32 PM by Az
If your goal is to boost your own ego and attempt to riducule and embarass your opponent then you can rain facts down upon them in a rapid fire fashion. Making them seem a fool. You will not convince them of anything and only engender their anger.

If instead you wish to engage in a dialog where the other side has a chance to learn something you have to work within the world view they have. It is not a question of being right. It is a question of being convincing. If you do not have the respect of those you are discussing matters with then they will not accept your words as readily. Establish trust. Provide evidence. And help them figure out the issue.

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Egalitarian Zetetic Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. well since the very essence of religion is ignoring facts for faith
it doesn't matter.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Not quite
A religion does not form up out of fantasy opposed to the understanding of reality. It starts as an assumption of what the nature of reality is. And once established becomes entangled in social contructs that take on compelling forms. As time progresses the construct evolves and adapts while attempting to maintain its central doctrine. Over time our learning and understanding of the universe may diverge from the religious claim. It is here that difficulty arises.

As religion is entwined in our social development and science is not a part of our formative development religion gets a head start in our children. It becomes part of the fabric of how some see the world. Reason and logic can only enter where there is doubt. Thus if the support of the facts is not more relavant to their world view than their existing beliefs there is no reason to question them.

Thus from what was once a belief that the facts of the universe were understood a religion can lead afar from reality. It is the fixed unchanging nature of some religions that causes this problem.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
8. Good job you used three sources with Hitchens as the primary
information provider. You couldn't have picked a more biased source of information.

The woman was a tremendous asset to the Catholic religion, and people who walk all over a dead woman who could have easily neglected the poor and starving in India are despicable.
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Egalitarian Zetetic Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. What about the facts? don't shoot the journalist with the courage
to investigate. Although hitchens has somewhat fallen out of favor with me, thanks to the iraq qar, he is no shill of the religious right.

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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. OF COURSE HE'S NO SHILL OF THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT
Edited on Tue May-25-04 08:46 PM by Neo Progressive
the man hates religion with the same ignorance and viciousness of the worst christians he criticizes. To have him be a source on anything religious is like having Ann Coulter be a source on anything liberal.
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Egalitarian Zetetic Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. He sees it for what it is, and the fact that 90% of the worlds population
adheres to superstition can get quite aggravating. Especially when frauds, charlatons, invented people and morans are looked at as saints and heros
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
31. care to debunk any of his criticisms
From my reading Hitchens only repeated much of what was already in the public arena. No-one has come up with any decent criticism or debunking of anything he said - a personal attack on the man isn't enough, he gave good REASONS why the myth of Theresa needed re-examining.

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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. Man, you have that one right!
I have a lot of respect for this women known as Mother Teresa. She was a great humanitarian and the world will miss her.

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Egalitarian Zetetic Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. and a friend of facist dictators, and just told the poor to shut up and
accept thier lot in life<nt>
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put out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
36. From what I have read,
she neglected the poor and starving. Her hospitals were for dying, not healing, unless it was her version of spiritual healing by way of pain and suffering. True, it wasn't squalor, and if that is the best you can call humane, good on you. When she became ill, why did she choose not to stay in her own hospitals? Because they were hospices, and she didn't want to suffer and die when there was hope. She wanted real medical care.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
37. Actually, who did more good there?
Anyone here? Any relief agency? Falwell? Robertson? Graham? U.S. relief agencies? Nobody's perfect but some do more than others. She accepted money for those in need. Who at slate.com did more than her for them? Answer, none. Not one liberal government or magazine or writer.
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Egalitarian Zetetic Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Any american free clinic. Psychologist, social woker<nt>
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. I didn't know they went over there
Edited on Tue May-25-04 10:17 PM by mmonk
and lived among the sick and downtrodden of Calcutta. You learn something everyday.
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Egalitarian Zetetic Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:21 PM
Original message
www.dwb.org <nt>
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Are you kidding?
Any idea how many people work in the third world - giving up their own comfortable lives - because they want to make a difference NOT because they want to be seen as Godly? are you REALLY that niave
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Egalitarian Zetetic Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. i was shocked they hadn't heard of doctors without borders, they actually
help people, not exploit them like fascist teresa
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Actually plenty
there are MANY aid organisations that work within communiities to FIX problems rather than just hover around waiting for people to become so ill they can be baptised without their knowledge after being devouted Hindu's their whole life.

Did ANY of Teresa's order's WADS of cash go to doing something about the unsanitary conditions many of her "patients" lived in, which would have prevented further sickness - NO because there was no need -to her suffering was beautiful and pain was "Jesus kissing you".

There is also absolutely NO excuse for the spiritual towel she provided (for a fee) for brutal dictators.

If there is a heaven I really hope Theresa is getting a lesson in ACTUAL compassion up there at the moment
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. I stand corrected
her long service to them walking the walk for them was a farce. Off with her fascist Catholic head.
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Egalitarian Zetetic Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Osama bin laden gave it all up to live in a cave, van gogh gave
lived amongst the poor,
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. You're right
how stupid of me. Osama and Mother Theresa. Two of a kind.
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Egalitarian Zetetic Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Osama exploits his followers a little less. And most of the world
isn't deluded about bin laden. And he hates most dictators.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. You're right
Osama Bin Laden is actually a better person than Mother Theresa. :crazy: Much more honest. Hasn't fooled everyone like Mother Theresa.
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
49. Locking.
Too insensitive remarks and personal attacks.
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