Does anyone know the Koran and the Bible very well?

[LostInAnomie]

I am in an argument with a fundy who is claiming that Muslims and Christians do not worship the same god. Does anyone have quotes from the Koran that draw a parallel with the Bible (preferably peace related)? It would also help if anyone knew quote from the Bible that did not promote peace.

[arcane1]

1. Hoseah 13:16

get your fundie friends to explain that one

if they say "their" bible doesn't have that verse, ask them why 99% of the other Enlish bibles DO

there is no shortage of bible verses that promote anything but peace:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

[doni_georgia]

2. Your fundy friend believes that Jesus is God

Muslims, Jews, and Christians all worship the same God. They all worship the God of Abraham. Muslims and Jews both claim decendancy from Abraham. Muslims accept the Bible as earlier prophecy. They believe Jesus was a prophet, but simply not divine. The Prophet Mohhamed called Christians, Jews, and Muslims "people of the book." This meant that all shared the same origins of their religion.

Orthodox Christianity accepts that Muslims, Jews, and Christians all worship the God of the Bible. Modern day fundamentalists (including many charismatics, evangelicals, and pentecostals) dispute this, claiming that Jesus is God, and therefore anyone who does not worship Jesus does not worship the same God. Thus, they would say Jews do not worship the same God either.

Ask your friend if he/she believes that Jews worship the same God as Christians. If the answer is "no," then you know that you are wasting your time even arguing with this person, because they have thrown out all reason, since Jesus himself was a Jew. If the person says "yes," then point out that Muslims believe the Koran is later prophecy added to the Bible. They worship the God of Abraham just like Christians and Jews.

[mike1963]

3. Ask your fundy friend "how many gods are there?"

...

[renegade000]

15. lol

"what? wait...*head explodes*"

[seventhson]

4. Here's a start

http://dianedew.com/islam.htm

[papau]

13. Excellent source - but read her sources - Jesus never claimed to be God

At least not in those words.

Perhaps it depends on the meaning of the word "is" - but he really never says "I am God".

So I disagree with her interpretation of some verse.

But it is a great site!

[FlashHarry]

5. The Abrahamic religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism.

All revere Moses as a prophet. The question is primarily as to the divinity of Jesus and the later prophet Mohammed.

All stem from Abraham. I believe, though, they differ as to which of his sons they followed, Isaac or Ishmael. I could be totally wrong, though.

[seventhson]

9. You are right

The question re: Isaac and Ishmael pertains to which son was to be sacrificed. They were half brothers: Isaac was by Sarah, a Hebrew, and Ishmael was by Hagar, an Arab. Both , according to the Bible, were to be blessed with abundance and great nations.

But the battle over which is the "right" inheritor of the land and faith is the cause of much of the strife today: cousins fighting over the inheritance of the temple mount and the "kingdom" of God in the holy land.

It all goes back to the inheritance from Abraham.

[FlashHarry]

16. Kind of like Abu Bakr and Caliph Ali

The cause of the Sunni/Shia rift.

[AntiCoup2K4]

10. Nope, you got it.

Muslims are the descendents of Abraham and Hagar's son Ishmael.
Jews are the descendants of Abraham and Sarah's son Isaac.

So it's all one huge family squabble that got waaaaaaayyy out of hand over the years.

[Egalitarian Zetetic]

6. Here are some good things from the Quran

Good Stuff in the Quran
2: The Cow

Don't confuse truth with falsehood or knowingly conceal the truth. 42


Pay the poor-due. 43, 110, 277

Be good to parents, relatives, orphans, and the needy. Speak kindly and pay the poor-due. 83

If you believe it, prove it. 111

The Jews say the Christians are wrong, and vice versa. Yet they both believe in the Scriptures. 113

Give of your wealth to family, relatives, and the needy. Set slaves free. 177

Do not fight wars of aggression. 190

Spend your money for good: to help your parents, your family, orphans, wayfarers, and the needy. 215

Help orphans. 220

"There is no compulsion in religion." 256
3: The Family of 'Imran

Don't argue about things that you know nothing about. 66

Do not be guilty of usury, doubling and quadrpling the sum lent. 130

I suffer not the work of any worker, male or female, to be lost. Ye proceed one from another. 195
4: The Women

Give to orphans and don't steal from them. 2, 10

Men and women proceed from one another. 25

Don't kill other Muslims.(Is it OK to kill non-muslims?) 29

Be kind to parents, relatives, orphans, the needy, neighbors, and travelers. 36

Whoever participates in a good cause, will be rewarded. Whoever participates in an evil cause, will bear the consequences thereof. 85

Value justice, for both poor and rich, even when it adversely affects you or your family's interests. 135

Don't lend money at unfairly high rates of interest. 161
5: The Table Spread

Don't hate other people. Treat everyone fairly. 8

Whoever saves the life of one, it is as if he had saved the life of all. 32

Pay the poor-due. 55

Feed and clothe the needy. Set a slave free. 89
6: The Cattle

Be good to your parents. 151
7: The Heights

Pay the poor-due. 156

Be kind and forgiving toward others. 199
9: Repentance

Pay the poor-due. 18

Alms are for the poor and needy, to free captives and debtors, and to help wayfarers. 60

Men and women are protecting friends of one another. They enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and pay the poor-due. 71
16: The Bee

Be kind to your relatives. 90
17: The Children of Israel

Be kind to your parents. Treat them with respect in their old age. 23

Help your family, the needy, and wayfarer. Don't selfishly squander your wealth. 26

Don't kill your children to avoid falling into poverty. 31

Don't steal from orphans. 34

Don't follow what you don't know. 36
22: The Pilgrimage

Feed the poor and unfortunate. 28

Don't lie. 30

Be kind to others, forbid injustice, and pay the poor-due. 41

Pay the poor-due. 78
23: The Believers

Pay the poor-due. 4

Repel evil with that which is better. 96
24: Light

Pay the poor-due. 37, 56
28: The Story

Repel evil with good. 54
29: The Spider

Be kind to your parents. 8
30: The Romans

Men and women should help each other with love an mercy. 21

Help your family, the needy, and wayfarers. 38
31: Luqman

Pay the poor-due. 4
41: Fusilat

Good and evil are not the same. Repel evil with goodness. That way your enemies will become your friends. 34
42: Counsel

Be loving and kind to your relatives. 23

It is wrong to oppress people. 42
46: The Wind-Curved Sandals

Be kind to your parents. 15
49: The Private Apartments

Don't defame, insult, spy on, or backbite one another.. 11-12
51: The Winnowing Winds

Give of your wealth to help the poor. 19
58: She That Disputeth

Pay the poor-due. 13
73: The Enshrouded One

Pay the poor-due. 20
90: The City

Free a slave, feed the hungry, and exhort one another to pity. 13-17
98: The Clear Proof

Pay the poor-due. 5

[Columbia]

23. A few more

<2.191> And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

<4.101> And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.

<9.123> O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

<25.52> So do not follow the unbelievers, and strive against them a mighty striving with it.

[dpibel]

33. And don't forget these

A few more words of wisdom on the subject of treatment of unbelievers, and general issues of peace:

The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. Exodus 15:3

He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. Exodus 22:20

And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword. Leviticus 26 -8

But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed. And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them. Deuteronomy 7:23-24


If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Deuteronomy 13:6-9

So how're we stacking up here on peace and tolerance? And we're not even out of the Pentateuch yet.

And if you'd like to argue that this is all old-dispensation stuff, there are always these kind words from the Prince of Peace himself:


Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

Thank god Christians don't have a mean book like those warlike Muslims.

[Columbia]

34. Who said they did?

"Thank god Christians don't have a mean book like those warlike Muslims."

But let's not pretend that Islam is really a religion of peace either.

In the end what really matters is not what these scriptures say or even how we interpret them, but the acts and works we do in life.

[Djinn]

35. there is no erligion of peace

so lets not pretend any of them are. we could even go further and say that if Yahweh/God/Allah etc actually DID make us in his/her/it's own image it's a miracle we're not all suffering serious Dissosociative Identity Disorder.

You'd think that an all knowing God could have published a few books without them being absolutely riddled with contradictions and inconsistencies (regardless of which pen name he's using) guess it's hard to find a good editor up there.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. Perhaps I can help

First of all, does the fundy know that the Qur'an mentions Jesus, Moses, Abraham, and many other prophets? That one of the longer suras (chapters) is "Mary" in honor of Jesus's mother?

Anyway, here's a few quotations :
Sura 6:83-85

That was the reasoning
About US, which
We gave to Abraham
(To use) against his people
We raise shom We will,
Degree after degree
For thy Lord is full
Of wisdom and knowledge

We gave him Isaac
And Jacob; all (three)
We guided
And before him
We guided Noah,
And among his progeny,
David, Solomon, Job,
Joseph, Moses, and Aaron;
Thus do We reward Those who do good.

And Zakariya and Yabya
And Jesus and Elias
All in the ranks
Of the Righteous...

6:89-90
These were the men
To whom We gave
The Book , and Authority.
And Prophethood; if these
(Their descendants) reject them,
Behold! We shall entrust
Their charge to a new People
Who reject them not.

Those were the (prophets)
Who received Allah's guidance;
Copy the guidance they received;
Say, "No reward for this
Do I ask of you:
This is no less than
A Message for the nations.

(from a translation called "The Meaning of THE HOLY QUR'AN translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

Here's a bit about peace, also from the same translation:
Sura 8:61

But if the enemy
Incline towards peace,
Do thou (also) incline
Towards peace, and trust
In Allah: for He is the One
That heareth and knoweth
(All Things)

Hope this helps.

[indigobusiness]

8. That is just plain silly.

ALL sacred paths lead to the same place.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. Absolutely right!

Thanks for posting!

[Alerter_]

11. Ask the fundie to find a reference to this theory from before 911

This is a particularly deceiptful "theory" because no one believed it until 911. Billy Graham's son popularized the lie I believe.

[seventhson]

12. same faith, same God, same teachings (with only minor differences)

same ten commandments. Jesus is a prophet in Islam - the gretest next to Muhammed, and Jesus was one of Muhammed's guides on his night ride to heaven for his enlightenment.

Jews and Christians, except when they are corrupt, are respected by the Quran (Koran).

[Disturbed]

17. "claiming that Jesus is God.

That claim is really silly. According to the New Testament, Jesus was instructed by his father to commit suicide via the cross. In Jesus' supposed own words, he asked, "Father why have you forsaken me?" while Jesus was hanging on the cross. Jesus also called himself "The Son of Man". There are many references in the bible where Jesus refered to "his father". I suspect that most Fundies don't read the bible or pick out quotes that fit into what they want to believe. Beside all of this, Right Wing Christians deny or don't accept that Jesus was a Socialist, not a Republican.

[seventhson]

20. Jesus said : I and the father are one and you are one in me

we are ALL god, allah, elohim, brahma, Ain Sof, whatever you wanta call "it"

We are "it". Collectively

All of us

Allah, Elihu, Elohim. Elijah, Elias, Issa,

Shalom, Salaam all means "Peace". So does the word Islam

[mike1963]

30. "Thou art God"

grok?

[indigobusiness]

14. "Cast not ye pearls before swine."...

is also good advice.

Any Christian who believes they have it figured out, has no grasp of the teachings their own religion.

[progdonkey]

19. they are the same

Most of the points have already been listed: the big three all trace through Abraham; all revere Moses; Isaac and Ishmael, etc.

I would like to add the following: the Koran discusses at length the life of Jesus (sans miracles, virgin birth, etc.) To Muslims, Jesus was on par with Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, etc. He was not God, but he was one of his prophets. Mohammed is merely God/Allah's final and greatest prophet to Muslims.

Here's a short narrative detailing their relation: in the beginning, you had the patriarch Abraham, who had two sons; his first born, Ishmael, with the maid Hagar, and the second Isaac, with his wife. So Arab Muslims believe themselves to descend from Abraham's first-born, but Jews believe themselves to descend from Abraham's first "legitimate" son; each holds an argument for status. The Jews had the Old Testament/Torah. Then, Christ came along and created a sect of Judaism known as Christianity, which later broke off into its own religion when large numbers of gentiles joined; they recognized both the Old Testament and the New Testament (the new being a "key" to the old). About six hundred years later, Mohammed comes along and produces another testament, the Koran, which is basically a rewriting of the entire Bible (to put it VERY generally), but with the major events included (the flood, Abraham, Moses, the prophets, and Jesus).

In short, Judaism produced Christianity, and both contributed to Islam. All of them pray to the same god. Furthermore, it's not that they're all monotheistic that one could argue they pray to the same god, it's because they all share the same core history.

Lastly, the mere fact that Muslims refer to God as Allah, doesn't at all mean he's a different god (Yahweh, Jehovah, God, etc. are all accetable Judeo-Christian names). Even Arab Christians refer to God as "Allah." It's simply the Arabic word for the same entity. (Think of how different countries have variants on the same name: ie. Jacob, Yakov, Jake, etc.)

Fundamentalist Christians don't want to acknowledge that Muslims pray to the same god because they want to believe that Muslims are devil-worshippers. After all, how could the purest-evil Muslims be praying to the same God as the purest-good Christians? Wouldn't God correct them?


**If any of this is wrong, please correct me. I don't belong to any of these religions: I'm just an agnostic who's studied the Bible and grew up in a Muslim country with Muslim friends.**

[Solomon]

21. You explained it extremely well. And concisely. I've always been

intrigued by the story. Hagar was a servant so Ishmael was treated differently than Isaac, who was born through Sarah the wife.

God promised the land to all of Abraham's seed, making no distinction between legitimate or illegitimate seed. Unfortunately there are many who interpret God's gift as being to the descedants of Isaac only.

[Cheswick2.0]

22. Is your friend saying that there is more than one God?

Give it up, his/her prejudice is based on ignorance not the bible.

[TheReligiousLeft]

24. Hmm. Surah 3

Check it a bit. The Qur'an traces its roots back to Abraham, and sees Judaism and Christianity’s fighting over Abraham as father (think Galacians 3ish) as silly. Islam is down with Jesus, though those who who claim he is ALLAH's (note Allah is assumed to be the one God the Christians and Jews worship) son (instead of a prophet) are condemned (can't remember the exact verse off hand, I think it is somewhere in Surah 18 maybe?). Also on a linguistical level Allah lines up with the Hebrew world Allah, to arise. This could easily be a circumlocution for the divine name.
To me the Qur'an is like the near eastern myths and stories that were written down the the Bible were kept oral for a lot longer time and in around 600 something were fixed into a tradition.
Take all of this with a grain of salt, I'm a Lutheran pre-sem.

[Andy_Stephenson]

29. I was raised Missouri Synod

or Catholic Lite. All the guilt none of the saints.

[southlandshari]

25. The meaning of "Allah"

I've only glanced at the rest of the thread, but it looks like some have already given some good passages of scripture from both holy books to go on, so I'd like to add another quick fact that may also help with this.

The word "Allah" in Arabic is from il-Allah, which literally translated means "The God". It isn't an actual name, like Baal or Gabriel or Pete or Joe.... it is the Arabic word for God. I lived in Jerusalem for two years and attended regular church services in Arabic, and the word "God" was never inserted into prayers, Bible reading, hymns or anything else. When reading or singing any of these in Arabic, the references were always to Allah. By Christians. In Jerusalem. In Bethlehem. Whose families have been there since the days of Jesus.

There is ample doctrinal and historical "proof" that Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same entity (Yahweh, God, Allah in different languages), even if some disagree on interpretation of what that God teaches. One of the only differences there is the Christian idea of the trinity. And, I know from experience, anyone who takes the time to learn the basic tenants of each (not always reflected in cultural traditions) of those three monotheistic religions, will find far more common ground than contradiction.

[newyawker99]

36. Hi southlandshari!!

Welcome to DU!!

[Tinoire]

26. Ask you fundy friend if he/she/it was smart enough to study linguistics

and then ask that absolute idiot if he/she/it was smart enough to realize that

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani". Meaning, "my God My God why have you forsaken me". (in Greek / Matthew 27:46)

means

"ALLAH, ALLAH, why have you forsaken me"?

Fundy Christians, aka Christian Zionists.... a very stupid, non-thinking, non connecting the real dots bunch .

Send your biblically challenged friend to me. As a Christian, it will be my greatest pleasure to straighten his/her/its ass out and make sure they make it to Jesus safe and sound because the Fundy road... well to be politically correct "many shall be deceived" & they're well, far, on the road of deception.

Who do you think the millions who shall 'unwittingly' worship the Anti-Christ are? (Or rather, who do you think they think the millions who shall 'unwittingly' worship the Anti-Christ are?)


On edit- I really hope your fundy thing friend never runs into appellations as complicated as "Adonai", "Elohim" or "Yahweh"! The head simply spins at how many heathen cultures they would want to bomb over that one!

[Andy_Stephenson]

27. Isaac and Ishmael

Abraham was married to Ruth...Ruth could not have children so she sent Haggar (if I remember correctly) to him to bear him a child...which she did. Later, Abraham did the nast with ruth and she was with child...oh happy day...well not quite. The two boys grew up but instead of Abraham choosing his oldest child to be the heir (Ishmael) he gave his blessing to Isaac...Which started the feud that is still going to this day.

So to answer your question...yes they worship the same god.

[AntiCoup2K4]

31. Sarah (Sarai) was Abraham's wife, not Ruth.

Ruth was a bit later down the biblical road.

[Andy_Stephenson]

37. Yes of course...

how easily I forget.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. "Allah" is merely the Arabic word for "God"

Arab Christians refer to God as "Allah," just as Spanish-speaking Christians refer to God as "Dios" and Japanese-speaking Christians refer to God as "Kamisama."

[DrWeird]

38. "God" is just the English word for "Allah."

"God" being the English from the german "Gott."

So I'm betting "Allah" was around before "God" ever was.

[southlandshari]

39. Touche!

Excellent point.

[Merlin]

32. The Old Testament portrays a blood thirsty, racist, vile God. Quotes:

...and the lord spake unto moses saying, avenge the children of israel of the midianites."...and the children of israel took all the women of midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. and they burnt all their cities where they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. and they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men, and of beasts...and moses was wroth....and moses said unto them, 'have ye saved all the women alive?'...now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. but all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
..........Num. 31:1-2, 9-11, 14-18

the lord shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall persue thee until they perish. and thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. the lord shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed...and thy carcass shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away. the lord will smite thee with the botch of egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst be healed. the lord shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishement of heart.
....Deut. 28:22-24, 26-28

for a fire is kindled in my anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundation of the mountains. i will reap mischief upon them; i will spend mine arrows upon them. they shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: i will also send the teeth of the beasts upon them, with the poison of serpants of the dust.
the sword without, the terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of grey hairs...i will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives.
..........Deut. 32:22-25, 42.

seven nations greater and mightier than thou; and when the lord thy god shall deliver them before thee, thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them...for thou art an holy people unto the lord they god; the lord they god hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
.......Deut. 7:1-2,6.