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Undercutter Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:14 PM
Original message
Female Desirer and Islamic Trauma
Edited on Tue May-25-04 01:52 PM by Skinner
The pictures from Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq touched such a nerve in the Muslim world that one analyst said that the rape pictures "would equal a nuclear explosion" if seen in Muslim countries. Such extreme reactions raise the delicate topic of sex in Muslim-Western relations. The West and the Muslim world entertain vastly different assumptions about female sexuality. (I draw here on the ideas of Fatima Mernissi in her 1975 book, Beyond the Veil: Male-Female Dynamics in a Modern Muslim Society .) In the West, it was until recently assumed that males and females experience eros differently, with men actively undertaking the hunt, seduction, and penetration, and women passively enduring the experience. Only lately did the idea gain currency that women too have sexual desires. Considering the Muslim reputation for archaic customs, it is ironic to note that Islamic civilization not only portrays women as sexually desirous, but it sees them as more passionate than men. Indeed, this understanding has determined the place of women in traditional Muslim life.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

http://www.CNSNews.com
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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for the post
I found that interesting and very informative.....
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. I can't imagine what it must be like
to grow up a female in an environment like that.

:nuke:
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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I experienced the shock of my life when my ex was offered a job
at a University in Saudi Arabia. We got a 10 page fax explaining what women could not do in Saudi Arabia... and it applied to ME!!! It was quite a shock. Needless to say, we did not go.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. a recent vanity fair issue
had an article about the french headscarf issue..it is a very interesting read about the clash of cultures in france. if you have a chance to read you `ll understand what women are up against...
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enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. I have a problem with the basic idea of "Islamic Trauma,"
Edited on Tue May-25-04 12:43 PM by enough
the idea that the "abuses" at Abu Ghraib are traumatic only in context of Muslim society.

We could argue about this in the abstract, but you can do a simple thought experiment. Suppose that the pictures were of American prisoners, male and female, being treated this way by Muslim guards, male and female.

Imagine what the OUTRAGE would be, and the way it would be used as justification for any kind of revenge and atrocity in return. And the way the perpetrators would be seen as either animals, or devils, or both.

These outrages are against humanity, human rights, human dignity.

And beyond the torture, we must remember the ever-increasing documentation of the deaths in prison of many named individuals who now have many grieving relatives.

(By the way, Daniel Pipes has made an excellent career out of explaining why Muslims are not quite like the rest of us.)

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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. You're right, of course
The treatment is horrific for ALL human cultures.

BUT -- the reason these treatments are especially "helpful" in breaking the spirit of Iraqis goes to cultural differences. IOW, if it's offensive to all of us, it's ALL THE MORE OFFENSIVE to Iraqis, for the reasons outlined.

If we don't get that, then we get a Zell Miller dismissing it all as nothing different than taking showers in h.s. after PE (which he said), and we get people believing him.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. What the Hell kind of showers was he taking?
I used to shower after gym class too. I don't recall human pyramids being part of the agenda. I don't recall broom handles being stuck up recti as part of the agenda. I got my share of bullying in those showers and have to say that those things didn't come up. Also I don't recall guard dogs and leaches.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
34. This would have been the best post on these boards in weeks.
Except that it could be construed as condoning the work of Daniel Pipes.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
6. I don't care how you approach a misogynist view, whether as
women to be conquered and penetrated, or women who need to have their desires leashed and imprisoned, you still end up in the same place, with women as subordinate to the whims of the male population and very dependent on them economically. I say women should form a modern amazon nation and use the men for breeding purposes only. The Hell with all of them.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Heh
I can understand your anger at men.

But,becoming an amazon as you describe will make a man of you.

Never submit. That's the issue here..Women need to step up and do what they can protect thier sisters from men,raise your voices!Don't let the church or tradition or media set agendas for you,be active. And bring up your daughters to be aware of the dangers of manipulation,power abuse, self hate and obedience. Do not role model servitude.Make your husband/boyfreinds houseclean and act like an equal person.Do not caretake beyond what men do ,until the men..do it.
If men are insensitive,sensitize them.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I will never be a man. Wrong equipment.
I use Amazon as a metaphor for a time in pre-history when the legends say that women were in charge and the men were subjected to them. To clarify what I mean, my idea is that until women have economic indepence and complete control over the number of children they wish to have, they will never be independent of men.

Wouldn't it be better if women wanted men in their lives instead of considering them an economic and security necessity?
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kcwayne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. This is pathetic
What do you think of some man that makes a statement that woman are weak, emotionally driven, willfully dependent twits, miserably unfit for rational thought, incapable of exploration of mental and physical frontiers, and should only be tolerated for fornication purposes?

Why should men think any differently of you when you make such poorly thought out tyrade against men and propose yourself to be the new tyrant of human social structure? Spare us, please.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Oh little weak minded me. I must go back to my kitchen and
Edited on Tue May-25-04 02:50 PM by Cleita
bake more cookies.

Get a life buster. When women start putting men in their place then we will have peace on the planet and not before.

On edit: Your post is typical of what men do when women don't say things they like to hear. Then you belittle them as being stupid and not in their right mind.
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kcwayne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Clueless
Edited on Tue May-25-04 03:07 PM by kcwayne
You unleash an outrageous broad brush attack against men using the same simple minded mentality as the KKK or any other hate group.

Your statements are no better than any hooded racist or protypical male chauvinst, and you have the gall to suggest that because of your gender you have some clue about how to bring about world peace?

As long as you adopt the philosophy of "us and them" in the same mold of Bush, Hitler, Stalin, or any of the long list of tyrants that have brought immeasurable suffering to this world, the only result of the likes of you gaining power is more concentration camps. The only distinction is that your concentration camps will be run by women? Wow, what an extraordinary vision.

Cookies indeed.


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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. ROFLMAO.
You don't have clue about what I'm talking about, do you? Considering that Bush, Hitler and Stalin were all men, how do women fit in there? Your post speaks of so much fear that men have of women gaining some power. All you see is the image of Lyndie England humiliating men, without considering that it was men in higher command that allowed her to do that.

All I can say is that if Hillary Clinton, or Barbara Boxer, or Maxine Waters had been Commander-in-chief instead of Bushler, how the aftermath of 9-11 would have been handled would have been so different than what has happened now, and there is a good and informed possibility that 9-11 wouldn't have happened at all.
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kcwayne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. I knew you would drag out that tired "Its all men's fault"
I do have a clue what you are talking about. You are talking about how you hate men. You seem to think that you have some moral high ground in your hatred because you are a female. That is simply wrong.

What separates your hatred for men from Hitler's hatred of Jews, Bubba's hatred of Blacks, or any long list of small minded bigots that have populated history? The answer is nothing.

Men have largely been in control of governments for most of recorded history, so they make better targets. But before you make the completely idiotic projection that this somehow makes women morally superior, remember that Queen Elizabeth ruled the British Empire while it enslaved a vast majority of this planet, and Cleopatra ruled an empire that enslaved countless numbers of Africans. When these two had the chance to rule, they ruled just like men, with warts and all.

You can roll on the floor all you want, but the point you are missing by a wide mile is that just because you live in a tolerant society that has lets you spew hate rhetoric doesn't mean your rhetoric is any less banal than the German Reich's during the 1930s. You have simply changed the flavor, but it still tastes like shit.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. Deleted message
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Reading is Fundemental. Try it
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. And what's that supposed to mean?
I am reading your inane post aren't I?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I'm a bigot. That is such a stupid remark.
Edited on Tue May-25-04 03:42 PM by Cleita
I guess if African Americans said they should form our own nation where everyone was truly equal, you would call them bigots too. Incidentally they did back in the nineteenth century. It is called Liberia and once was founded by freed American slaves.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Deleted message
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Did you read my post #15?
This is my position. The breeding thing was turning on men what many societies do to women, including ours. One need only read horror stories like the woman who drowned her five children in Texas because her fundie husband kept getting her pregnant even though she had been diagnosed as having post-partum depression and the doctors recommended she have no further pregnancies. This is the anti-abortionist's positions, that women must be made to bear a child they don't want. If you can't see that, then I guess no one will be able to open your mind to how poorly women are treated in the world at large and in our society as well.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. and of course Ms Yates blameless
She couldn't divorce her husband (no wait she could), she couldn't use the pill without him knowing (no wait she could), and she couldn't abort without him knowing (no wait she could). Her husband is also at fault but we wouldn't for a minute except this lame ass crap from some crack addicted woman who killed her kids.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. You're assuming she was capable of making these decisions.
She was suffering from a bi-polar disorder if I remember correctly, but that didn't stop Mr. Yates from using her as a brood mare anyway. The crack-addicted woman in my mind wouldn't be capable of making a rational decision either. Another question is how depressing and insular was the crack-addicted woman's life to begin with that she had to medicate herself?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Even with you being consistent
I know from the differing commentary on the Yates case vs the myriad of abuse cases by addicts that many, many people weren't. I don't believe for a second that a black crack addicted mother who did the same thing in Ms Yates' jurisdiction would be anywhere but death row.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Oh, I agree with you there.
Not only is she an easy target because she is a woman, but a Black woman too gives her two strikes against her. Incidentally, many drug addicted white women also hit the cellblock faster than their male counterparts. I think about Martha Stewart, who was on trial for insider trading, the same thing George W. Bush did in unloading his Harken stock just before it crashed on the market. George went on to become our Prez. Martha stands to lose all she has worked so hard for. If anyone wants to say women are equal in our society, pardon me while a give out a good horse laugh.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Martha was convicted of lying not insider trading
Had she simply kept her mouth shut or told the truth she would have been clear. In her case the cover up was likely the only crime.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. So she is still more wrong that Bush in your mind?
What part of entitled white male jackass give him a pass where others don't get one?
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. Liberia - where veryone is truly equal - HAH
Returning American slaves formed an elite that ruled cruelly.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. True, but they did found their own nation.
No one called them white-haters because they did.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. I'll volunteer to be used for breeding purposes!
Just kidding.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. LOL
I'll leave it at that.
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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
33. Actually that's been tried,
at least in feminist science fiction. It didn't work out all that well, either. Try Pamela Sargent, THE SHORE OF WOMEN, Sheri Tepper, THE GATE TO WOMEN'S COUNTRY, Marion Zimmer Bradley, THE RUINS OF ISIS. _Very_ thought-provoking books.

But I quite agree that the best foundation for an equitable society is for women to have financial independence and be able to choose men because they want and love them, not because of social or economic pressure. Unfortunately as long as women want to be mothers, some structural problems interfere.

Husbands sharing household tasks equally, and daycare centers, are one solution. Where they are attainable, they help. Other answers are the extended family, or shared childcare among a group of close female friends. Or, when wealth is based on property, inheritance in the female line.

And let's don't forget the toxic effect of those Old Testament sexual codes, which all three "religions of the Book" draw on. A central principle was that every woman's sexuality was the property of some man==father, husband, master/owner==and he had the right to use it or dispose of it as he wished. Whether women are viewed as hot and desirous, or cold and "pure" makes little difference, if a woman is not truly free to choose anyway.

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Right on shimmergal.
The fantasy and sci-fi fiction alwalys seem to assume that if women are given true equality or even become the rulers that they will enslave the men. I personally don't believe this would happen unless they were Republican women, of course. ;-) (Ann Coulter comes to mind.)

Even the Amazons of legend preferred to live separately from the men, coming together once a year to breed with them. Once, an Amazon found herself pregnant, she went home. Her mate went back to his cattle and horses. When the child was born she kept the girls and gave the boys to their father to raise. This doesn't sound like a dominatrix society to me.

Historically, Herodotus, writes of the Saromatian women, who fought alongside their husbands in battle and hunted with them. This speaks of a society where the sexes were equal. It is believed that the Saromatian women gave rise to the Amazon legends. It was just that the Greeks couldn't stand the idea of women being treated equally to women in a society with men, so they had to invent the woman as having to live separate from men to be like them.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. Daniel Pipes & CNS?
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obnoxiousdrunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Daniel Pipes ??????
Thats what I am thinking about ............
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. I'm glad someone besides me still looks for CREDIBILITY
Some people believe evreything they read
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
9. Undercutter
Please do not post the article in its entirety. Post up to four paragraphs of the article. Do not combine the paragraphs to make it look like four paragraphs.

Link to DU Rules

Thanks.
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Undercutter Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. ok
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