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MiltonLeBerle Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-03 11:36 AM
Original message
A question regarding the California recall.
The whole thing seems amazingly un-democratic to me, and there's something that I don't understand-
There are 2 parts to the ballot, correct?
with question 1 being: Should the governor be recalled?
and question 2 being: Who should be his replacement?

It seems to me that every "NO" vote on question 1 should count as a vote for Gray Davis on question 2. Otherwise, a governor will most likely be elected who has less support than the current governor.

Example: on question 1., 60% vote "yes", and 40% vote "NO"...then, on question 2., Ahhhnold wins with a 25% of the vote plurality, when a much larger portion of the electorate "chose" Gray Davis.

If this is indeed how it could turn out, it seems completely apalling-
Is this the way that it does work?
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Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-03 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. Regrettably. . .
that's the scenario.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-03 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
2. This evokes several other questions....
How long has this been on the books? I wonder if some Political Science graduate student did their thesis on this senerio? How could this not be foreseen?
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-03 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
3. Your first conclusion makes sense
has this been argued in court yet? Seems the CA. law is undemocratic at best.
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-03 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
4. agreed

The CA supremes refused to rule on this point
brought by Davis.

I believe they are 6R and 1D.

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DianeK Donating Member (612 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-03 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
5. i also have problems with this recall...
my husband tried to point out to me that when we find that a leader is incompetent for the office of president, our remedy is the impeachment process and that this recall is a remedy for the incompetence of a governor...sounds reasonble enough i guess, and i know that california is is dire economic straits but with 39 other stated joining california either in bankruptcy or on the verge of it, i think it points to the incompetence of the president, not the governor....with homeland security mandates and a cut back of federal aid to state programs, states have been forced to take from crucial programs in order to pay for it...is that really the fault of davis? maybe there is something i am not understanding, if so, please fill me in
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-03 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. it's not even like an impeachment
because in an impeachment, you need a supermajority to convict, whereas a recall only needs a majority vote.

what's even worse is that unlike an impeachment where a specific "charge" has to be laid, the recall can be done for no concrete reason. it's like Davis on trial, but can't defend himself because the reason may change from day to day.

the worst thing about it, in my opinion, is the short time frame. there's not enough time for a serious campaign. a sleazoid like Arnie could slip in, without enough time to get out the word on his dirty past.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-03 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. This law has been on the books since early 20th century.
As far as I know no one EVER considered the possibility of using it in this manner; it was designed to provide a peoples outlet to recall a criminal or insane governor.

So while possible, I doubt any grad student had forcast this scenario. Modern political thought up to this point had not accomodated the neocon philosophy of victory at all costs. Democrats are still asleep on this aspect of their opponents.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-03 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Democrats, including myself are
easily blindsided by such seething behavior. Reminds me of our current Homeland Security system.
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zoidberg Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. California has had plenty of questionable recall efforts
This is just the first time it's worked.

SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- He was California's governor and hoped to be his party's next nominee for president or vice president. His slim chances were dashed when activists who didn't like him, his tax increases or his plans to cut school and health care funds mounted a campaign to recall him from office.

At first, politicians from the opposing party kept their distance from the campaign. No past attempt to recall a governor had succeeded. The recall seemed to have legs, however, and by June his supporters were worried.

The scenario may sound familiar. But the target was actually Republican Gov. Ronald Reagan and the year 1968...

http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2003/06/10/ne...
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-03 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. I don't understand these points...
1. Why doesn't the Lt. Gov. assume the office of Governor if the Governor is recalled? The Lt. Gov. isn't being recalled. Isn't he the next in line of succession? If not, then why have a Lt. Gov?

2. If Grey Davis was to resign a week before the recall election, would it still be held? If so, can anyone explain why? If the purpose of the recall is to remove him from office and he removes himself, there is no longer anyone to remove.

3. If the California economy is so bad, why add to the debt by having a recall? If the state just had an election, and so many people voted for Gray Davis, why then can the petition be considered legit if it was started immediately afterwards. Do the number of people signing the petition against him have more importance than the greater number of people who had just voted for him at the polls?

4. Why is a state deficit so offensive when an even deeper federal deficit doesn't seem to be anything to be concerned about?

5. How can Rolling Blackouts (Partially caused by the greed of Enron) be attributed to Gray Davis being a "bad" Governor?

The Jay Leno "Tonight" show demonstrated how the person presenting the petition can get people to sign anything if it is presented properly. A woman with "ugly" makeup attempted to get a petition signed and people ignored her. The same woman, made up to be pretty, was able to get men to sign a petition without even asking what it was about.
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ronatchig Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-03 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I have wondered the same
Virginian, would it not throw a massive monkey wrench into the works if Mr. Davis were to resign as governor? Also it would keep Cali in Democratic hands would it not?
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-03 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
11. Unfortunatly it is this way!
It is UNDEMOCRATIC, but that's the DAMN LAW!!!
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roberthall10 Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-03 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
12. Another Question
Should Gray Davis resign, presumably the Lt. Gov takes over. Would such a resignation in fact stop the recall referendum in its tracks?
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-03 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. No. That window of opportunity is gone. Recall is on
and all hangs on that vote now. :-(
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-12-03 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. What if someone started a petition to stop the recall?
Could such a petition counter the initial petition?

If they are going to have recall as a method of unseating criminal Governors, It should require the petition to specifically state what crime has been committed.


WHAT IF volunteers stood outside the polling places with a new petition to unseat whoever wins this election? Would Gray Davis be allowed to run in that recall election?


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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-11-03 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. That really struck me too.
I don't know how this became legal and it should be something that Davis or Bustamante should look into if they should prevail so it doesn't happen again.
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