Nlighten1 says Kerry needs "some spine" in dealing with Iraq and Bush.

[Nlighten1]

I know everyone here has different opinions on Kerry's performance so far on the campaign trail. But please, this thread just made me so mad I could spit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x562478

In it Kerry claims Bush "needs space" to deal with Iraq. So apparently Kerry is listening to the RW pundits who claim Kerry is being to hard on Bush's performance in Iraq.

Well, maybe Kerry needs to listen to us for a change. WE are the people who he wants us to vote for him right?

I propose an idea. If Kerry doesn't start busting Bush's chops within a month we all send a pink tutu to his office in Washington.

No more of this playing nice crap.

[dusty64]

1. Yeah chimp needs some

space alright, like the space between his ears isn't enough. When will these Democrats realize the Mr. Nice Guy act no longer works in this Country. People here thrive on confrontation and conflict, Kerry NEEDS to explain how his policies on Iraq would be different than our cabal's. Voters are looking for leadership and a way out of this mess, is he going to show us the way?

[KoKo]

2. Love it! The "Pink Tutu" Award!

I wonder if MoveOn.org. would take this up with it's membership. It sort of goes along with the "pink slip" group who protested the 9/11 Commission a couple of weeks ago. It sure would get the point across.

Didn't some DU'ers propose doing something like this to some Senate and House members after the Mid-terms? Then the idea sort of died.

[Octafish]

3. Yeah. And alienate the middle ground.

Good one. When 2/3 of the country supported going to war (or whatever the number was), having Kerry tell them they were stupid is not the smart thing to do. It's no way to win an election, either.

[Nlighten1]

11. Fuck the middle ground...

they are the reason we are in this situation now anyway.

[Octafish]

22. That's the spirit. Four more years.

Like Pruneface said: "Facts are stupid things."

[tom_paine]

25. I would argue it's not an either/or situation

There are ways to be more aggressive and more offense-minded (instead of reactive) without going to the oppsoite extreme and going all Ultra-Lefty.

Just my opinion.

[Octafish]

28. No argument from me. Bush is doing a good job of hanging himself.

I don't want Kerry getting tarred by Corporate McPravda for that good job well done.

For the record: I'll be the first to admit to being pro-Kerry. As you, tom_paine, and our friends on DU, including Nlighten1, can attest, I've also been among the first to support the guy because he has the brains, backbone, record, and vision needed to make an excellent President. Good Lord knows we need one.

[tom_paine]

36. The crux of the matter, Octafish: Kerry will be tarred by Imperial Pravda

no matter what he does.

Dean and Clark understood that. They spoke to the issue. Kerry speaks about it not at all. I find that terribly sad and also frightening.

Kerry DOES have what it takes, but we need someone now with the megaphone (such megaphones for Democratic Positions are now few and FAR BETWEEN) to Challenge the Pravda Matrix!

That's just one aspect of my slight disappointment with Kerry. The other is the increasing impression that, if we bust our asses for him and get him elected and get him a Democratic Senate, Kerry will do NOTHING to put those fellow Skull & Bonsers IN JAIL where they belong while still not in hell.

I could be wrong about that, but if it shakes down like that and Kerry balks...then it may well be that the Old American Republic is still lost.

Because if Free America stops the Imperial Family THIS TIME. NEXT TIME they will come back stronger, as they did after they got caught in Watergate and Iran-Contra.

Totalitarian Monsters don't quit until they are FULLY STOPPED.

[Octafish]

43. I know what you mean, tom_paine. Kerry wanted to do the job in 1986.

Remember, Kerry's the guy who hounded the White House and DoJ to prosecute Manny Noriega, the drug runner. When it turned out the DEA agents witnessed and reported CIA-Contra cocaine deals, Kerry also hounded same for them to bust Ollie North, drug runner.

Where was the press? Where was Congress? Apart from Henry Gonzalez and Jack Brooks and a few others, almost all were AWOL. Well, for all his trouble, North did sic the FBI on Kerry.

If you think Kerry won't lift a finger against the BFEE, great. I disagree. He's waiting for the right moment to strike.

Kerry learned a lesson. He'll strike when the moment is right. He won't waste his ammo, or worse, the right opportunity.

[tom_paine]

45. I would rather you are right. These Busheviks need to be JAILED NOW

But you know, it won't stop me either from working my ass off to see Kerry is elected.

And the Media Situation of parasitization, lying phony polls, bullying of mainstream press, double-standrads and the rest, was already in place then during Iran-Contra, just in embryo and not quite as grotesquely pervasive.

Remember those "polls" which said Ollie North had 92% approval rating?

How do they look in retrospect? Like Soviet-Bushevik Lies and Freeped Lying Polls is what they look like to me.

And the puzzling confusion of why the Dems pulled up on impeachment, when they had the Bushevik Bastards dead to rights is grotesquely similar to our current Dem difficulties of going through with the hard, but ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY stuff.

Again I say, Octafish, I am and will continue to work my ass off for Kerry, to donate and all the rest.

And I will sincerely hope that you are right and I am wrong on this issue.

[Nlighten1]

44. That is the spirit that got us where we are today.

Sitting on the sidelines and not confronting the thugs is why Bush is in office today AND the reason that BOTH houses are controlled by Republicans.

Keep on conforming because it has worked so well for us already!

[scrotim]

4. i think you will be chastised for posting this thread

the kerry-ites won't like it; during my lurking days i saw others banned for less.

best of luck, nlighten! i'll be watching.

[Nlighten1]

18. I know I will but...

I'm not a pink tutu Dem so I'm not afraid of the so-called-moderate wimp Dems.

Thanks for your support. :)

[radwriter0555]

5. Kerry is letting bush hang himself. He doesn't need to belittle himself by

acting like a spoilt child and waving his arms, pointing out every single misstep by the boy king in the white house.

We NEED a man who has the graciousness to step back and let the idiot in chief tighten his OWN noose.

WE need to support our next President. Kerry's bus is doing GREAT, he is playing this entire scenario like a professional, and I am IMPRESSED. My support for Kerry grows every DAY.

[Nlighten1]

12. Bush won't "hang himself"..

because the media is there to rescue him. Wouldn't it be nice for Kerry to show some real character? Call a spade a spade and be right.

[radwriter0555]

30. Name calling and mud slinging are the traits of people who are WRONG...

we don't need to act like kids in a sandbox. WE are honorable, decent people who aren't liars, cheaters, thugs and thieves like those in the White House.

For Kerry to start calling names, acting like a shrew, is to behave no better than the freaks in iraq who tortured those innocent souls; THEY descended to the lowest form of the social order.

YOU are more than welcome to call names, sling mud, get nasty, viscious and venal, however, that doesn't accomplish ANYTHING. But you go ahead. Acting in anger is something one who is without control does. It doesn't accomplish anything.

We are on the side of what is right and true. We have the truth on our side and as long as we stand tall and gently point out how horribly they're doing, while WE do what IS right and stand for WHAT IS right, we ARE right, and that is what matters.

The bush regime is toast. Word on the hill is that EVERYONE is backing away from any support of them. There is rumor of running someone else instead of bush, even, but they simply don't have a viable candidate.

WE are the ones who must stay the course.

Descending to the lowest form of the social order is for animals.

[Nlighten1]

46. It isn't name calling to speak the truth...

If Bush is a war criminal he should be called one...or are you saying that we should just keep quiet about it?

[KoKo]

16. We all said the same about Daschle before the "Mid Term Elections."

We had our chance when Jim Jeffords switched to our side, but we were told to not hassle Daschle and our Dem Leadership. They had "A Plan...a Strategy" we were told.

And after we lost in the Mid-terms the attention turned to giving Bush everything he wanted in Iraq.

Don't tell some of us here that Kerry is giving Bush "rope to hang himself with. We've heard that one before and why should we believe it now when we keep seeing such odd comments from Kerry day after day, to say nothing for keeping the "John McCain for VP" story alive as supposedly Dems running as the "Unity Party."

"Unity Party!" Yeah give me a break!

[Nlighten1]

20. Well said...

The idea that Bush "needs space" is a joke anyway. Congress has given him and his cronies all the space they have needed to execute this war.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

6. NLighten1 is not very...

..politically enlightened, IMHO.

Kerry is willing to let Junior continue to run with the political rope that is tied around his neck. The worse things get, the more readily apparent to everyone that Junior can't handle it, and that his NeoCon policies have failed across the board.

On the other hand, Kerry presnts himself as a moderate, which is appealing to the undecided voters in both parties. Those are the voters that will decide the 2004 election.

You need to get a grip and understand that this election is critical...one misstep with Kerry acting like something he's not can cost the election. Is that what you want?

[underpants]

8. Why should Kerry want to change the headlines?

I agree with you, now is not the time to turn the focus on yourself let it stay on W&Co. and how their mindless and misguided decisions are coming to fruition. CNBC boy Ron Insanna (sp?) cna go on the Today Show all he wants and talk up the economy (that is going to change) but the more this admin gets caught making up numbers and touting the "fantastic recovery" and people don't see it the more apparent is their disconnect no matter how much they train to cut and paste their description onto Kerry.

Don't jump in the water when the sharks are circling.

THe "some space" also serves to show that he is not "politcizing" deaths in Iraq and is behind the ComminChief but that he can do better.

[radwriter0555]

32. I think Kerry is being VERY well guided by the big dog. I find Kerry's

campaign is sheer brilliance actually. Anyone who thinks any step is accidental really has been paying to much heed to the rovian lies and spin.

Kerry is only BEGINNING to kick butt. His lay up is perfect.

[molly]

7. Will said it best

"Strategy tops big-dog contests any day of the week"

THEY have control of both houses of Congress.....there are only 6 months left until the election.....let them hang themselves.

[seabeyond]

9. media doesnt let him

all these people that go around telling what kerry needs to do. boring, he is boring. that is the new one. no spine. needs to be heard. speak out. no one knows him

media doesnt cover him. zilch nada. no coverage

[Q]

10. Wow....I'm absolutely shocked...

..and saddened at the state of the Democratic party. It looks more and more like my thirty years of voting Democratic have been wasted.

- Some have said that Kerry is giving Bush* 'space' and rope to 'hang himself'. How naive. This rope is around ALL our necks. This 'space' is allowing the Bush* cabal to continue killing INNOCENTS and American soldiers in the name of .... NOTHING.

- Kerry enablers are no more appealing than the Bush* enablers. It seems to me they all have blinders on and winning is the ONLY goal...as both sides pretend that Iraq has anything to do with 'freedom' or democracy.

- You can bet the farm that this 'advice' comes direcly from the DLC...complicit with those who want to profit from the death and destruction. Kerry and the DLC want to appear to be FOR and AGAINST the war at the same time. They don't seem to mind all the useless killing and destruction...as long as they can sway a few 'swing' voters to their side and keep the campaign chest full of treasure soaked in the blood of war.

[tom_paine]

17. A harsh indictment perhaps, but at least partially true

It gives me no pleasure to say this.

I am working for the Kerry Campaign.

[Nlighten1]

21. Do tell...

in what capacity are you working for the Kerry Campaign?

[tom_paine]

24. Nothing major. Just doing my part.

The lowliest of footsoldiers, like most of the rest of us here.

If you thought you were going to get some High-Up Info or the Scoop for Kerry Campiagn HQ, sorry to disappoint you.

I'd wager they don't even know my name over there. Which, actually, is the way I like it.

[Nlighten1]

27. I am working locally for a Dem candidate for Congress

He thinks along the lines that I do so I just can't help but love him. It inspires me to get out and beat the ground for him.

Kerry's approach doesn't inspire me at all.

[tom_paine]

34. I understand

I disagree in that it's not enough to keep me on the sidelines when my country needs me...but I understand your view.

[Nlighten1]

47. I'm not on the sidelines though...

I am out working with a candidate who is a truely progressive candidate. If we are to ever get rid of these milque toast wimps in Congress this is how we do it. Put our energy and fire behind people who share our values instead of supporting the status quo.

[jobycom]

29. Winning IS the only goal

How much good have Kucinich, Dean, Sharpton, et al done towards stopping the war? None. The blood is still flowing.

We win, we can right the wrongs. We lose, we can whine and moan and feel good about how bad we feel. Fuck that. I hate self-indulgence. Just win, baby! If Kerry betrays us then, then we can turn on him. But until then, he's our chance.

[Malva Zebrina]

35. How much has Robert Byrd done to stop the war? How much did

millions of people all over the world done to stop the war?

There is ONE thing that Dean and Kucinich DO seem to have, that Kerry does not--and this is a conscience, the ability to parse through nonsense and the politics of the beltway, and most of all, they have emerged with their humanity, honesty and integrity intact.

Kerry is not going to "stop the war" either.

He voted for it, for crying out loud.

He wanted the war in Iraq, and, looking ahead toward his candidacy, most likely, let Bush the ugly and evil do the dirty work, but, like others, Diane Feinstein for one, he wants those spoils,(ie oil) no matter how immoral the killing of tens of thousands of innocent people, children, pregnant women, old men, old women, cripples and anyone else who just jhappened to be in the way of Bush's Shock and Awe,including more than seven hundred poor slobs who were our military, sponsored by Kerry and others like him. He will enjoy his postion of the American president who is in control in Iraq as well as the friendship of the Israeli peoples who would be happy to have Kerry, Bush or anyone who is friendly to them, be in control in Iraq because there is no one else.

His hands are tied, re the war, and he was the one who tied them.



Kerry is part of the shame--and he continues to hide from his complicity--because he may not be elected if he admits to the mistake.

I am a newbe to politics and the discussions thereof, and I do not want a scairdy cat, impossibly obtuse man, who hides behind convenient "nuance", as my president-reminds me of the
republicans who always seem to have something to hide-but, I have to vote for him because Bush is definately worse.

[IrateCitizen]

37. How much have they done? Not enough.

That's the only answer that can be given. So long as the occupation continues, then the people didn't do enough to bring it to an end.

Kurt Vonnegut famously quipped that all the artists in America focused their attention and energy on ending the Vietnam War with the intensity of a laser beam. It turned out to have the effectiveness of a custard pie dropped from a stepladder 6-feet high.

Personally, I didn't care for Kerry's vote. I think it was a chickenshit thing to do, and it reeked of political opportunism. But I also realize that Kerry didn't make the decision to invade Iraq at that time -- that decision was George W. Bush's, and his alone. The IWR was authorization for use of force after all other options were exhausted -- not for use of force first and foremost.

Now, back to ending the war/occupation. Do you realize what it will really take to do this? It will take general strikes. It will take mass mobilizations of nonviolent civil disobedience. It will take massive noncooperation by critical sectors of the populace. It will basically take a collective turning of the American system on its head in order to accomplish this, something that is certain to bring about a violent backlash from the powers-that-be. Are you ready for such an undertaking? Are you ready to give up a great deal of your personal comfort to accomplish it? Are enough people around the country ready for it?

Until we are, the answer to your initial question will continue to be, "Not enough."

[jobycom]

38. Dean and Kucinich should NOT have a clean conscience

They haven't stopped the war. They haven't stopped a single death. None of us have, yet.

A clean conscience means you did EVERYTHING you could. If Kerry blows this election by shooting off his mouth rather than running a focused campaign, then he should feel guilty.

And if you don't think he's about stopping the invasion, you aren't paying attention. Look at his whole career, his whole life.

And he did not vote for the war. He voted for the Iraqi Resolution, which was an attempt to slow Bush's rush to war. At the time, Bush was saying he was going with or without approval, and that he had full authority. The Republicans in control of Congress weren't going to stop him. The Iraqi Resolution was the best chance we had. It came close to working. It made Bush go to the UN, and as I read the Resolution, Bush had to violate it to go to war in the end, anyway. Check out Kerry's comments on the Resolution before and after he voted for it. He was NOT authorizing Bush to go to war.

The problem isn't that the Democrats lack a spine or any other weird anatomical feature that is supposed to provide courage. The problem is that we have the most naive voters on the planet who don't bother understanding what's happening.

[Malva Zebrina]

42. this is just a bunch of crap--he voted to give Bush a blank check

cut it out. we, as a country, have had enough of spin,so that the "right" impression can be given. Tell the truth. In my experience, that can never get you into much trouble as trying to spin a bad situtation and make it appear as if it is not a serious matter. Kerry voted for the war. If he had any balls, if the Democrats had any spine, they would have insisted upon the law and the consitution in order to embark upon the slaughter. Perhaps then, there would have been a time frame that would have brough more to light. No--they all voted to kill people. We knew it. We took to the streets, we wrote, we pleaded, we even wrote to the UN--they ignored us and embarked on a slaughter. and then the Dems whined
We didn't know --we did the best we could with the bad intel--

I do not buy it and anyone that has been keeping up with all of the events, knows that is not the truth.

I want Kerry to let me know where he stands on this war. In plain English. Like Kucinich and others have done. As far as anyone can gather he wants UN or Nato to help out the poor, beleagered, invaded and occupied, tortured, with children dead by the thousands,Iraqi people now. A little late and after the damage has been done.

But, face it-here is the practical political consideration-the corporations are already in--the more than two hundred private corporations are in and set up to thrive, as, fortuneatly the interim government has written it into their consitution that these American companies cannot be divested of their holdings in Iraq.

AS far as that is concerned Bush has been successful. He got the oil. Is Kerry planning to give everything back to the Iraqi people and if so where does he say that? I may have missed something. No--he wants to keep it all.

Why does he continue to play coy? I do not admire him but I will have to vote for him because Bush is far worse.

[tom_paine]

13. I agree. Kerry is enshrouded by the Bushevik Fantasy Bubble

He'd better pull his head out of ass IMMEDIATELY!

Both Clark and Dean would have been better at speaking out IMHO.

Kerry has been barely acceptable, but we need better than that at this crucial time in history.

[thebigidea]

14. we should give Bush "space" on the economy as well, hell - on everything

Think of all the space we could make if Kerry doesn't even bother to speak or run ads! Why, Bush would just hang HIMSELF, right? Its good politics, right?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. "Spine" is forbidden by the DLC tacticians.

What's that saying about evil prevailing because good men remain silent?

Ahh, well, he must convince the mythological middle that he's not a (gasp) liberal. He's doing a good job of convincing the left.

[tom_paine]

19. Sad but probably true

It may be impossible to stop our descent into Imperial Totalitarianism.

Let's try anyway!

[Lorien]

39. Yes, and it really worries me

when times are uncertain, voters would rather have a candidate who is "strong and wrong" over one who is right but appears weak. There's no show of strength in Kerry's message so far, and that may be why he doesn't have the massive lead over Bush* that he should at this point. I agree with www.MoveOn.org that it's time Kerry goes BIG with his message and ideas for America's future (you can sign a petition to that effect on their site). As other DUers noted; it's one thing to say that things could be better, but offering real SOLUTIONS for America's problems (and not the same one's the opposition offers) will bring us the Whitehouse in November.

[sandnsea]

23. Will Bush lead or waffle?

Whatever happens is 100% on his head. No politics or undermining Bush's efforts can be blamed. It isn't about giving him enough rope to hang himself. It's making sure the blame is completely on George Bush when he does.

Which I know DUers have a really tough time grasping. Blaming Bush for his failings isn't near as much fun as blaming the pink tutus.

[Q]

31. It's not about being able to 'grasp' Bush's* 'failings'...

...it's that Dems don't seem brave enough to point out those failings in a world hungry for leadership and honesty. Allowing Bush* to go his merry way and not face prosecution is akin to letting an arsonist keep his matches and gasoline hoping that he'll stop when everything's burned to the ground.

- Being aware of a crime in progress and not doing anything to stop it makes the Dems complicit.

[sandnsea]

41. You just don't get it

He points out Bush's failings all the time. There's a difference between pointing out the failings and turning this war into a political football. Then you've got the Iraqi's using Kerry's words to undermine any remote possibility of a stable handover. You've got Republicans blaming Kerry because Bush was undermined. You've got Kerry being blamed for putting the troops in more harm because he turned the war into a political game. Complete election year fiasco. Let Bush stand on his own two feet and lead or fail. Period. The people are obviously capable of judging the success or failure of Iraq policy as is evident by the polls. The time to rip Bush apart on failings in matter of war are within a month of the election, when people are making their final decisions. Not now.

[corporatewhore]

26. some he needs a full back bone transplant

he had to get rid of his spine inorder to join the DLC

[IrateCitizen]

33. Ummm... I think you'd better re-read what Kerry said on this

There's a veiled, but still pretty broad swipe at Bush in his statement.

I'm often quite vocal in expressing my disappointment with positions Kerry has taken throughout the campaign. But I honestly can see the value in this strategy.

Kerry said that it's time for Bush to "lead" on this issue. First, Kerry is not in a position to currently do jack shit about what's going on in Iraq -- all he can do is make campaign speeches or speeches from the floor of the Senate.

Implicit in his statement is the idea that Bush has NOT been "leading" to this point. Bush has staked his entire campaign on his portrayal as a "War President". Kerry is essentially implying a dereliction of duty, that he really hasn't been taking charge of anything.

And for those of us on the left, it should be clear that Kerry believes that Bush's "leadership" on this issue will take him straight down a dead-end street. The guy really couldn't "lead" his way out of a paper bag, for crying out loud.

Stop being so knee-jerk about this. There are plenty of areas in which Kerry could be more forceful, areas in which he needs to show more spine and stop being afraid to be bold. But in this instance, he's playing his cards pretty damned well, IMHO.

[redqueen]

40. That's exactly what I was thinking

The between-the-lines commentary on bush's leadership was priceless, IMO.

I agree he's playing his cards very well. He's not silent on other issues, either. I loved his comments on schools being divided by income yesterday.

Right now all of DC is in chaos over the torture issue. Everyone has their agenda and is ready for a fight. For him to jump in right now would be counterproductive. He's smart to lay low and let the intelligence agencies, the military, and the bush gang go at it, and wait until they've played their hands before he plays his.

[salonghorn70]

48. Kerry Is Running A Great Campaign

Have you already forgotten the two polls that came out over the weekeend that had Kerry up by 5 points? Kerry is running for President. Not to just send a Message.