Fellow former military DUers: Is it not laughable that only enlisted

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

people are being court-martialed over Abu Ghraib? Doesn't it simply strain any kind of belief? I understand that it's part of the Pentagon and shrubco's strategy to limit the scope of the inquiry and the people's perception of where the responsibility lies. But come on now.

Wouldn't simple dereliction of duty warrant some kind of court martial offense on the part of people like Col. Pappas (the commanding officer at Abu Ghraib when all this happened), among others? Who is reporting on this, if anyone?

Sy Hersh should definitely avoid flying in small planes.

[sallyseven]

1. Information is going

to drip and drip and drip out. They cannot contain this. Sivit may say that the upper service people did not order this. He is just covering his butt. While I think that some of those people enjoyed what they were doing. It is like when people did bad things to blacks. They have no humanity toward the Iraqi people and they were taught that the Iraqi people are less than human. Watch rummy and co. to see how they disregard the Iraqi people. Wonder how condi like the show.

[kentuck]

2. I could envision a scenario....

If the military is anything similar to what it was when I was in, staff sergeants (E6) and above had direct contact with command, at the Company level (Lt and Capt). Those below the rank of E-6 (sergeant, specialists, privates) were usually denied access to ranks above them.

Therefore, Staff Sergeant Skip Frederick would have had control over the unit that was photographed at Abu Graib. He would have been the enlisted person to answer to the direct command above him. He could have requested that Graner, England, and others be assigned to certain duties, perhaps at their request.

The place to start the investigation would be with Sergeant Frederick. He could say who he reported to and the chain of command would go from there. That is the way to get to the bottom of it...

[Vickers]

3. Them enlisted folks will sing like canaries when they see the brass...

...is hanging their asses out in the wind. It'll take some time, but it'll happen.

Veteran Vickers

[thebaghwan]

4. It will be interesting to see what they do with that woman general

Karpinski. Right now they are probably doing the "out of sight, out of mind" bit for The Sheeple. There is a lot more of this that will come out over time.

[Frederic Bastiat]

5. These events usually snowball

Expecially when the "six morons" start talking on the stand and naming names, once the Officers names are on public record its all downhill from then on.

[uberotto]

6. Actually, this isn't all that uncommon...

I remember when I was in the military, we had a small scandal involving some officers. The officers weren't court martialed, but instead were "forced" into leaving the military.

This, as I understood it, was the way the military usually punished officers.

You can't punish enlisted this way, because they usually want to get out, whereas being an officer is more like a real career, so being fired is far more damaging for them.

[Warren Stuart]

7. The UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) is based

on the same legal principles as in civilian life. You do not give up all of your rights as a citizen, you may be subjected to certain standards that do no apply in civilian life. And other rights may be curtailed in some circumstances.

But the same principles apply, if there was sufficient evidence to prosecute officers then there should be prosecutions. Absence of prosecutions in itself is not proof of favorability toward officers.

The reprehensible behavior of some of the soldiers in the prison is not something one would expect from an officer. So it does not surprise me that no officers have been charged as of yet, nor would it surprise of none are, or if some are.

These soldiers were not properly surpervised, the officers and soldiers were stretched too thin, it may be unrealistic to expect that the officers were even aware of the abuses. In this case the real culprits are the ones who sent them into war so critically understaffed.

[TN al]

8. There is a clear delineation of punishment meted out to enlisted...

...and officers. In the mid 90's there was an officer court martialed and convicted of rape. I will let you decide what might have happened had he been enlisted. The officer was simply discharged upon conviction. If you want to research this Stars and Stripes reported on it and is my source. The military often approaches a subject with the attitude of "what will make this go away the quickest?"

[reprobate]

9. MM, are you really surprised?

As a former enlisted man, I knew quite a few officers who were in my opinion honorable men. But my overall impression of the officer corps was that they were one big club who usually covered for each other.

On the other hand, smart officers know that to screw over your enlisted troops is not a way to insure a long and healthy life. I once knew a captain who was hell on wheels to his ground crew. They could do nothing to his satisfaction.

One day I ran unto him just after he returned from a flight. The man was absolutly white, like he was going into shock. I asked if he needed the medics. He told me what had happened. Seems like he was post flight inspecting his aircraft and found the ejection handle wired down. The man became the very model of caring for his ground crew from then on.

Smart officers don't let themselves get in that position.

[asthmaticeog]

10. I've never been in the military

but I agree that this is laughable. It prompts one to question where, exactly, these enlistees aquired all those hoods and dog leashes, just for starters. Just happened to pack 'em when they shipped out, did they?

Obviously there are bigger questions prompted by this P.R. containment strategy, but that one does kind of make me wonder.

[mourningdove92]

11. I was discussing this issue with my

brother yesterday (he's a former bush lover, but not now}, he is also a veteren that served during Vietnam. He said that there are two truths here. First, he firmly believes the soldiers were ordered to do what they did, Second, after a while, the soldiers became immune to their sense of right and wrong and began enjoying it.

Makes sense to me.

[Corgigal]

12. I'm wondering

if the same underlings might start disobeying orders. I mean these are the people who die in Iraq and now they see their peers, edged on by military officers and worst civilian contractors taking the fall guy position. All awhile the contractors are making the dough and getting away with crimes. I'm know they never thought giving up their life for Iraq was worth it but now it's not worth giving up you life for the military command either. I hope whoever gets out does.

[Eloriel]

13. Ya'll need to read Sy Hersch's latest article:

http://newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact

[trof]

14. As a former officer, I say it's entirely right and proper

that shit only flow downhill.
It is an accepted fact that the officer corps is always perfect, in every decision and action, and without even the merest hint of blame for anything the enlisted grunts do.
<sarcasm off>

[Vickers]

15. *removing hook from mouth*

Aw man, I was ready to come in here with flames-o-plenty!

:toast:

[trof]

16. Hee. Gotcha.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

17. I saw an online blanket party coming, LOL (eom)

[playahata1]

21. for the uninitiated,

what's a blanket party?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

23. Okay, picture a guy lying on one of those racks in a soldier's barracks.

His buds are P.O.'ed at him over some offense. So they sneak up, throw a blanket over the guy, holding it down at the sides to pin him under it. Meanwhile he is struck with blunt objects of choice until fully tenderized.

This was depicted in the film "Full Metal Jacket" where the whole boot camp unit was being disciplined over the mistakes of one recruit. The idea being, the drill instructor, rather than disciplining the perp (who was actually exempt from the various penalties), is applying pressure to the unit to discipline the perp themselves. The blunt object in this case was bars of soap wrapped in towels.

[playahata1]

24. Thanks for the explanation.

n/t

[matcom]

18. laughable? no. DISGUSTING? absolutely

don't get me wrong. they SHOULD be courtmartialed and frankly, sent to do hard time.

bookmark this post though.

RUMSFELD WILL BE OUTTA HERE BY THIS TIME NEXT WEEK

that is my prediction

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

19. matcom, I agree with you that the enlisted perps are fully deserving

of court martial and harsh sentences. "Your Nuremberg defense is no good here." But the idea that all this was going on and no officer responsible beyond reprimands and career ending no promotion letters is beyond belief.

BTW I'm well aware that this is entirely symptomatic of the US "stance" towards prisoners since the establishment of the American Gulag at Gitmo.

In a way, I'm not surprised that shrubco has gone with the "batten down the hatches", "it's only these 7 enlisted pukes had a crazy party one night" coverup story. Despite all judgement (I hope that the rest of the photos/vids leak out before the election), their first and only instinct is still to hide. Obfuscate. Cover up. Lie.

[trof]

22. Is your crystal ball as good as this guy's?

"In modern popular democracies, even a limited armed conflict
requires a substantial base of public support. That support can
erode or even reverse itself rapidly, no matter how worthy the
political objective, if people believe that the war is being
conducted in an unfair, inhumane, or iniquitous way."

"Ultimately, a doctrine that relies on antiseptic methods of
warfare may prove dangerously seductive. Seemingly tailormade
for an era of post-modern politics, precision weapons also
have the potential to increase the propensity of political leaders
to resort to violent means. The ready availability of Precision Guided Munitions may
tempt them to conclude that force need no longer remain the
option of last resort, and induce them to employ their arsenal
without due reflection."
-Col. Charles J. Dunlap, Jr.

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/ssi/pubs/1999/techbatl/techbatl.pdf

[x-g.o.p.er]

20. It shows a complete lack of accountability and leadership...

by senior military officers. I am disgusted beyond belief. This already smells of a whitewash before any court-martials occur, simply for the fact that NO officers are being held accountable.