I think my Dad's been watching too much of FOX News . . .

[no_hypocrisy]

At dinner tonight, he ingenuously and rhetorically "asked" which is better: having a dog collar put on you or being decapitated. He was serious and a bit disturbed, like when your conscience gets in the way of you trying go forward.

My brother and sister, my in-laws, and I just stared at him. We all wanted to straighten him out, but we collectively looked at each other and agreed to give him a free pass by changing the topic quickly.

I had high hopes for my father as he wanted to donate to Kerry's campaign after decades of being a republican no matter who ran. But tonight was a new low for him. I can't believe that he couldn't see the inhumanity inherent in the military humiliation and torture of Iraqi prisoners (many of whom were illegally and unjustly arrested). And I can't believe that he can't see this outrage because of his background: first, he's a retired doctor and sensitized to people's misery and second, he feels outrage as a Jew and a human about the war crimes perpetrated by the Germans (among others) during World War II. Why should this situation be considered frivolous?

Is my father one of many people who choose not to care or is he not capable of caring?

[bobbieinok]

1. don't know abt your dad.....I know many who only watch FAUX and

listen to RW radio ...... they live in another world

[DarkPhenyx]

2. If it becomes an issue again...

...tell him a better question would be "would you rather die quickly by decapitation or get beaten to death slowly by a big stick?" One must compare apples to apples you know.

[Robbien]

3. Propaganda is useful because it is effective

And Faux does it so well that normal people do not know they are being manipulated.

I would have told your dad that neither is acceptable and even thinking of doing either is a loss to one's humanity.

[instantkarma]

15. The result of the manipulation is

that dad thinks he has to make a choice in the first place. After the argument "which one is better/worse?" has been accepted, it then becomes a simple matter to direct the subject to the "correct" choice.

[NMDemDist2]

4. this is the wrong debate, don't get pulled in to that

this is not a choice, both were atrocious behavior. I do not need pick one over the other, and by agreeing one is bad, it doesn't diminish the brutality of the other

Never let them catch you in that question, it's a non starter

BTW do you still beat your wife?

[Warpy]

5. I know it's a bit late for a comeback

...but let him know that one atrocity doesn't excuse another. We have been a country that has avoided these practices for a great many years, not because of who they are, but because of who WE are.

This is a classic false choice. Remind him that two wrongs never make a right, that they keep perpetuating more wrongs as they escalate violence for violence, atrocity for atrocity.

Then let him chew on it.

[ibegurpard]

6. Ask your father

that as long as murder is occurring in this country whether he thinks that we should just forget about rape.

[wtmusic]

7. sounds like my Dad

also a retired Doctor, he used to come out with little provocations like that.

The only time I ever made progress with one of those was when I would just ask honest questions back, like: "Well, Dad, I think we both agree we're better than al Qaeda--but is that good enough?"

etc. etc. Sometimes.

He blew me away this year when he just said, "If they don't find any WMDs I'm sure as hell not going to vote for Bush." Maybe all those years of my sisters and I bugging him did some good after all.

[zulchzulu]

8. Was Dad imbibing?

Sounds like his brain was a bit fogged.

It could be he was Hannityized...burn some sage and spread the smoke over his body. Gets rid of the evil...

[TiredTexan]

9. Al Franken quoted

a military expert yesterday that stated that German soldiers in World War II were told by their parents to surrender only to Americans. This was because during World War I Americans had treated the Germans well who had surrended. As a result, the Germans fought to the death before surrendering to the Russians, and surrendered quickly to us. This saved many American (and German) lives. In addition, John McCain has been interviewed lately and stated that the Vietnamese treated the POWs better as the result of the Geneva Convention and world pressure put on them by the Red Cross and other humanitarian groups.

The point of this is that the reason for treating POWs well, and under the rules of the Geneva Convention, is not just because it is the right thing to do, but because it protects our soldiers. Obviously, the result of our failure to follow the Geneva Convention in Iraq put our soldiers in considerably more danger than before, as is evidenced by Berg's death.

Besides, it is the "rule of law" and we all know Republicans are big on that, don't we?

[T Roosevelt]

10. Try this one next time - it applies to virtually anything

"You've been watching Fox again, haven't you?" and just give him that 'your a dumbass for doing it' look.

[maggrwaggr]

11. looks like the beheading is having its desired effect

Chalk another one up for Bushco.

Kind of frightening to think of what else they might do.

[democracyindanger]

12. I woulda said

"That's a good question. Here's another: Would you rather be a torturer or a murderer?"

[exDinosoar]

13. What was the answer?

which is better: having a dog collar put on you or being decapitated

Well? What was the correct answer?

[Career Prole]

14. Chrissakes, how does that crap live on?

They're not comparable, but not because one is more or less cruel than the other. They're not comparable as in apples and oranges. Ask him how sodomizing a bunch of innocents with a few petty criminals sprinkled in amongst them is going to advance the noble cause of Bush*'s War on Terra.
I could see the comparison being valid if we had al Qaeda members locked up in Abu Ghraib. Then Fux can say "They cut the damn head off our guy, and we only put a leash on theirs" but we don't have al Qaeda locked up!
They're running around cutting heads off and making videos and demo tapes while we play Naked Twister torture games with a bunch of folks who didn't have shit-all to do with any of it. Jeez!

[althecat]

16. We now have Fox News on late night TV here in NZ

... and I can tell you it is an amazing eye-opener. I can see why Murdoch's cable service here in NZ carries the BBC and CNN and not Fox - Fox is UNBELIEVABLE!!!

Sophisticated mind-numbing propaganda with a sugar coating.... it is really quite something.

Gems from last night included.
- Torture has been useful as it led to the capture of saddam hussein
- The Vatican is way out of line for criticising the torture scandal and it is time American Catholics stood up to the bully pulpit (this from a Catholoic repug Rep.)

And too much more to mention.

The way clearly false misinformation is slipped into the conversational style of the shows is amazingly effective I would imagine. To the viewer it masquerades as a conversation among informed people that the viewer is privileged to be able to listen in on - like you heard the news at the hardware store.

[Robbien]

18. Yes and as you see it works so well

Nations other than the US do not understand why America is not waking up and rising against Bush. When we have Faux going 24/7 and our version of the BBC and CNN is so much more to the right of the international versions, we have an almost impossible battle here.

[seabeyond]

17. it wasnt the iraqi's that decapitated berg

it were terrorists from other countries. the iraqi's that had the dog collar, and much worse, rape, and murder............had no part of berg. the iraqi's that have held hostages up to this point have treated the prisoners way better than we have. personally i would sit down and gently and patiently explian this to your father. if he was going to donate to kerry, it was the emotion of decapitation and ergo back to nationalism that took him here. if he understands that the people of this country, 70 to 90 % of them innocent and let go are seperate, maybe that will pull him back

but he does have to understand that the torture did not stop at the mere pictures we have seen

and the terrorists dont have anything to do with the iraqi people

[Fire Bush]

19. My usual response to such comments...

"Well, I can only hope that if one day our country is ever invaded that we treat our attackers in the same manner and worse."

That usually brings on a second or two of thought, and then the subject gets changed.

[Romberry]

20. Try this: "Dad, just like you told me when I was a kid...

"Dad, just like you told me whan I was a kid, two wrongs do not mae a right. We can't use other's wrongs to justify our own. We're supposed to be the good guys."