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PotatoBoy Donating Member (364 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:39 PM
Original message
BERG VIDEO ANALYSIS THREAD
I'm starting a new thread (yer lookin' at it) for those who want to view the video (who have finally gotten over the horror of it) and analyze it. I'm still grabbing a few copies of it, they're around 40-50MB.. so these should be high quality. I will post ed2k (edonkey) links as soon as I verify that the videos are not fakes. If you're not familiar with edonkey/emule, go to http://www.emule-project.net / and download the client.

Here's one video, confirmed: ed2k://|file|nick.berg.beheading.video.-.Warning.-.Graphic!.AVI.mpg|44664956|D6BE8A24353C3DF6B3F4C67FEB76FDB0|/|sources,24.14.127.43:4662|/

If someone offers web space/bandwidth, I will also edit the video to make a censored version which will only contain everything up to the point where they knock Nick over. That way people can analyze the first part of the video and not worry about seeing anything horrid.

Stay tuned, bookmark this thread.

I'll start off by saying this: someone said that the guy doing the cutting switches..first it's the guy with the black hood, then it's the guy with the white hood. I did not see this. It looks like the guy in the white is holding Nick down (even though he's dead) the whole time.

Also, something else I noticed. When they knock him to the ground, the time changes to 13:45:47 and he still appears to be alive, wincing in pain. Then the camera man goes nuts and it's all blurry/shakey.. now watch the timer.. 13:45:49, 50, 51, 52, 59. At 13:45:59, the camera comes back into focus and they start cutting at his neck. Nick still looks like his mouth is open and he's in pain, not sure. The timestamp is consistent all the way up to 13:46:33, and then it jumps to 13:47:46 and suddenly his head is off.

So my question is... while the time is rolling normally, Nick still seems to be making expressions, and his neck bends at a REALLY freaky angle that would probably not be possible by a live, intact person. Can someone explain this to me? Is the timestamp fabricated in order to mislead, perhaps?

PS: I still have never listened to the audio. I'm swallowing one bit at a time here :) Once I get used to seeing the video, then I'll slowly bring in the audio.
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gp Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. you should NEVER get used to it. n/t.
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PotatoBoy Donating Member (364 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I know...
I know. I'm not saying I'm sitting here eating popcorn while watching it. I'm just saying, in order to analyze it, you have to not think about what you're watching, at least emotionally. Or just think to yourself, "this is not what it appears to be." Believe me, when I first saw this, I couldn't sleep that night.. and I didn't even watch it properly! I averted my eyes several times. AND the sound was turned off.

It's still hard to watch. But if we want to establish facts about the video, we have to step outsides ourselves and analyze it.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. someone suggested that this was a two camera shoot
Which might explain the timestamp change.

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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. two camera analysis
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I bookmarked this and saved it to my personal files.

The first post in this thread should either answer a lot of questions or . . . . hell, I don't know any more. Just FWIW.


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lanparty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. I'm pretty sure it's two cameras now
The first time I saw it I thought there was a large time lapse. I've since seen the "extended" version that includes an image of Nick's head lying on top of his still bound hands.

I spent some time analyzing that tape and have come to the conclusion that it's probably 2 cameras. Their are two scenes at the end with the large man holding up Nick's head. This is the same action scene from two different cameras.

I have a nice analysis written up but this forum doesn't seem to support tables very well.

Their is no "11-hour" gap. The film splices from one view to another. Nick was very much alive when he was murdered. Let's hope that he lost consciousness quickly and did not have to endure those brutal events for long.

The lack of blood spray can be accounted for by Nick's position facing downward. All the blood would have been sprayed on the maroon floor covering. This matches blood pretty well. The killers seem to have kept only their knives in the "spray zone". It kinda makes me rethink my position on OJ.

A few other things to note. During the "head display" we see that the ceiling is significantly darker than the wall. This may indicate that the walls were recently painted but the ceiling was neglected. The border of the floor seems to be concrete. But we can also see a tile (or linoleum) in a black in white patter that is 2 or three inches away from the wall. This is something to look for in the Abu Ghraib abuse photos. This event may have taken place in a cell.

One of the men has a large silver watch with a large bulbous crystal on his left hand. I believe this is the man who appears to the "leader"'s left during the speech. If you find that watch in any of the Abu Ghraib abuse pictures, you'll know who one of the murderers are.


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shooga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. the Extravagant Wrist Watch
... the extravagant wrist watch is a bit much for the middle of the desert .... seems more like a jar-head type thing ...

bodies looked like white guys:
white hands
white faces/eyes, noses
broad shoulders
beer bellies
very nervous

looked more like navy seals or ranger operatives - not desert living people.

most importantly of all, WHAT'S WITH THE ORANGE JUMPSUIT ??


http://www.fudgereport.net

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. I wont watch, but will await the analysis...
:hi:
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. and how do you not see the guy in the white hood problem?
He goes from holding Berg's body (at the back) to suddenly being the guy making the final cuts and holding up his head.
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PotatoBoy Donating Member (364 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Ahh..
You're right..I missed it somehow.
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. don't worry about the audio. It is dubed and way out of sequence.
Your analysis clicks with mine I was just about to post it.
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PotatoBoy Donating Member (364 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Post here..
go ahead and post any comments here.

As far as the audio, I plan on syncing it up.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
12. Some timeline analyses
Here's an interesting way to do tables, btw:
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.peskyflies.com/inv/index.php?showtopic=2263&...
There's some odd things going on with the time read-out. Look at the video Avs linked to. On the left is the windows media clock reading when I play it, and on the left is the corresponding video clock reading. Look:

WM-----|-----Video Clock-----|-----Screen Shot
0:00 ---|--- nothing ---|-------Arabic letters
0:05 ---|--- 13:26:24 ---|--- Nick Berg speaking
0:09 ---|---- 2:18:33 ---|--- Nick Berg sitting
0:20 ---|---- 2:40:33 ---|--- Speach in Arabic
4:36 ---|---- 2:44:56 ---|--- Speaker pushes Berg over
4:38 ---|--- 13:45:48 ---|--- Decapitation begins
4:43 ---|--- 13:45:52 ---|--- Picture lost
4:44 ---|--- 13:45:59 ---|--- Picture returns, decapitation continues

So, if the video clock was not tampered with, or reset, we can conclude that the speach and the attack we see beginning then was not actually completed, since we see Berg at 13:26:24 sitting still alive. In other words, the speach and the tipping over were an earlier take.

What we can conclude about the time jump between 4:43 and 4:44, I don't know.
-------------------------------------------




From a DUer:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
soulsick in jp (88 posts) Sat May-15-04 09:39 PM
Original message
A time line of the Berg film


sequence of events on the tape with special notice of the irregularities that I noticed. I try not to include too much of what has already been said:

time
on clock:

13:26:24- Nick in the chair telling his name and other info.

2:18:27- camera shifts to Nick in the same chair 11 hours earlier

Break: Nick is now on the floor seated in front of the five people.

2:40:03 #3 (in the middle;1 to 5 are left to right in the lineup.
Speech begins.
2:40:03- #5 wipes his nose with his left hand, not a very Islamic move

2:40:46- #3 folds the first page in half and keeps on reading
He then changes awkwardly flipping the pages several timed, but the voice is not slowed down while his eyes are off the page

2:42:11- I notice that #3 keeps moving his head from the pages to the camera very frequently and there is more page flipping where the voice does not take a pause.

2:43:32- More page flipping while the voice goes on

2:44:03- The blood curding scream while Nick is still sitting in the chair and #3 is still reading

2:44:07 #3 reaches under his shirt and pulls out a rather long knife- about a foot long blade and gives his papers to #4

2:44:10-11 -Nick is knocked over and is on the floor on his left side. The knife is put to his neck, but it does not look like he has been cut yet.

13:45:49- clock jumps 11 HOURS and the camera angle changes a bit as does Nick's position. (this is however only about 19 minutes after the first few seconds at the beginning of the tape).

13:45:49- tape gets fuzzy and there are choking noises that are pretty bad.
13:46:19- #3 is finishing off the head while #2 is holding Nick's arm.It seems as if any motion of Nick's body are due to #'s 2&3 pulling on his body, not any resistance, which has been mercifully absent since this last filming segment started.

13:46:31- Head is being severely tilted back as what looks like the last cut in being made

13:47:48- ANOTHER TAPE GAP: This segment begins with #2 lifting up the head. How did it get transfered to him?

Just a couple of observations:
1-By the time any cutting started on the neck, the body was lifeless.
2.Nick was not killed directly after being pushed over; that was some 11 hours earlier
3. The severed head did not look tormented.
4 Between 13:26:24 (when Nick is last seen sitting in the chair in the very first clip) and 13:45:49 or so (when the cutting started in earnest, the body has become lifeless. How is unclear. I hope this helps.
-------------------------------------------------
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Timestamps on Nick Berg Video, 2 cameras used
http://www.truth-teller.com/000041.html

Some news outlets have raised questions about time gaps in the Nick Berg murder video, citing an 11-hour gap in the sequence. Complete hogwash. The video is in real time and is shot with 2 video cameras with their internal timestamps set differently. The final video is edited back and forth with shots from both cameras, with one 22-minute gap while the group execution scene is prepared after Berg's initial statement. At times the scene shows the second cameraman in the margins of the video as they switch back and forth.
Here is the sequence and the timestamps shown on both cameras:

Begin, camera one, 13:26:24 to 13:26:28
Berg talking, seated in a chair.

Cut to camera two, 2:18:35 to 2:18:43
Berg still talking, still in chair, viewed from another angle but no time gap. Berg's statement takes about 12 seconds.

Skip ahead 22 minutes, camera two, 2:40:30
Now we see the five terrorists standing behind Berg, who is now seated on the floor, with the center man preparing to read a written statement. This scene runs until 2:44:48, taking 4 minutes 18 seconds, and ends with the center man pulling his knife, grabbing Berg by the hair, and the other men grabbing and holding Berg down.

Cut to camera one, 13:45:47
Execution scene continued from other camera angle, no gap in action. At 13:46:30 you can plainly see the other cameraman in the right margin of the frame, and you can see him using his video camera for the remainder of this shot. This scene runs for 46 seconds as the head is sawed off, until 13:46:33.

Gap of 73 seconds, to 13:47:46
Cut to scene of killer lifting up and then holding severed head up to the camera. This scene runs until 13:47:53.

Cut back to camera two, 2:46:18 to 2:46:22
Shows the killer holding the head from another camera angle.

Cut to camera one, 13:48:34
Head is shown resting on the chest of the decapitated body, camera pans to the severed neck for a few seconds, video ends 13:48:49.


There are two short time gaps in the sequence. First there is apparently a 22-minute gap between Berg's statement and the actual execution scene. Second, there is a 73-second gap (camera one) while the killers apparently finish severing the head and get it loose to hold up. Camera two is missing 90 seconds at this point. With the obvious editing back and forth between scenes from two cameras, this gap is probably not significant. Perhaps the terrorists did not want to show the difficulty of severing the spine to get the head loose, which I suspect would be quite hard with a knife.

Total elapsed on camera one (13:26:24 to 13:48:49) 22 minutes 25 seconds.
Total elapsed on camera two (2:18:35 to 2:46:22) 27 minutes 47 seconds.

Camera one was probably not running during the reading of the terrorist statement, and perhaps camera one has a time "counter" as opposed to a "clock" meaning it shows time filmed, not real clock time. If that were the case with camera two, then it is missing 22 minutes of actual footage, not 22 minutes of real time. I think that unlikely. However, the value of the numbers on camera two seem more likely to be clock time than footage time, unless the cameraman simply forgot to reset his counter from prior sessions. Leave this to someone more knowledgeable than me on video cameras.

Forget any bizarre theories being put forth about 11 hour time gaps in this video. It was done in real time, with two cameras running near continuously, and then edited only slightly to produce the final film.

I would welcome other analysis and comments on this subject. Perhaps someone will spend more time than me looking at this gruesome thing. I've had enough of it.

Note added 2:57 PM EDT: The 11-hour fallacy is probably based on the shortened, edited video circulating. The full 5-minute-plus (5MB) video can be found at Northeast Intelligence Network. They have had to keep moving the link due to traffic, so I don't copy it here. Scroll down to the bottom of their article.

Note sent to Associated Press:
To: info@ap.org
Subject: correction

In the story widely circulated today on the murder of Nick Berg, which begins:
By: ROBERT H. REID, AP Writer
Submitted: 5/12/2004
BAGHDAD, Iraq

the author states, "The video is of poor quality, and its time stamp seems to show an 11-hour lapse between when the assailants finish their statement and push Berg down, to when they behead him. That suggests a delay between those two portions of tape posted on the Web site."

This is completely incorrect, as a viewing of the full 5 minute video will show without any doubt. There is no time gap, but two cameras being used and then edited back and forth throughout the film. The timestamps on the two cameras are set at about 11 hours apart, but are incorrect and being run simultaneously. Please view a full analysis at:
http://www.truth-teller.com/000041.html

The author evidently relied on a much condensed version of the full video that has been circulating, and may give this wrong impression.

Thank you.

Posted by truthteller at May 12, 2004 12:42 PM
---------------------------------------------
erg execution video a Hoax
http://tinyurl.com/2a7hp

Check out the video timestamp timeline:

13:26 - Berg states his and his father's name. Seated in plastic patio chair in orange jumpsuit. Shot taken from a side angle.

2:18 - Seated in same chair, same jumpsuit, shot taken from the front. Berg identifies his family and where he lives.

2:40 - Berg is seated quietly on the floor in front of five masked men. All the men seem very well fed and the exposed skin rather pale for a bunch of islamic terrorists on the run. The middle guy appears to be reading from two pages of prepared text, although he is continually turning the pages over and over and over, his actions making it completely impossible for anyone to read anything from those papers. The video is too grainy to tell if the guy's mouth is moving.

2:44 - The shot angle has not changed - the middle guy is still 'reading' from his papers. Wild screaming starts on the soundtrack, but none of the masked men seem to notice it, and Berg is still sitting very quietly in front of them. He has not moved at all during these four minutes.

2:45 - the middle guy draws a knife from his jacket, pushes Berg over, and the camera suddenly zooms into such a tight closeup that the screen goes black. The timestamp abruptly changes here.

13:45 - the camera pulls back to reveal Berg utterly motionless, being manhandled by the attackers. An assailant with a black mask draws the knife across the throat, while an assailant with a white mask sits on the motionless body. The soundtrack has several people shouting "allahu akbar", but the opinion of native Iraqi speakers who have heard it is that the accents are NOT Iraqui, more likely arabic or arabic as second language.

13:46 - screaming escalates on the soundtrack yet the windpipe has quite clearly already been completely severed by the knife-weilding assailant with the Black Mask, the head being connected only by the spine. No screaming is physically possible at that point, yet it mysteriously continues, much the way it started. White Mask assailant still stitting on the motionless body, doing nothing.

13:47 - There is another in/out camera zoom and suddenly it is the White Mask assailant, not the Black Mask one, that steps away from the body, knife in hand, holding the head aloft. No blood anywhere. At this point, the timestamp and the camera angle abruptly change again.

2:41 - Berg's head held aloft by White Mask, different angle, no blood. Curious - what day is this? As previously noted, during the 2:40 through 2:44 period, Berg could be seen alive, seated quietly in front of his captors as they 'read' their statement.

13:48 - timestamp and shot abruptly change again. Now we get shot of head resting on top of the prone body, with a zoom on the body's severed neck. Everything is very clean, completely inconsistent with the forensic reality of decapitation.


This tape is, to put a very black humor spin on it, a 'headfake'.
----------------------------------
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
13. the audio is what is so important to me
his screaming that are clear, seem to go with what is going on, then at a certain place i heard gurgling, like would happen in this instance. and if he was dead with this, then there would be those noise. this is what makes it real for me. and not sounding fake or added in either. this is what stops me from thinking he was dead ahead of time.

as far as amount of blood husband looked again and again for signs of lacking of blood and he is thinking that clearly the man was dead ahead of time
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
14. "The severed head did not look tormented."
I never noticed this, but it stands out like a sore thumb (at least to me) now that it's been mentioned.

If he was screaming in agony during the beheading, I would have expected to see some evidence of pain in his face when he died. Yet I don't remember seeing anything like that.
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