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Would shrubco be dumb enough to snuff their own citizen and pimp the video

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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:27 PM
Original message
Would shrubco be dumb enough to snuff their own citizen and pimp the video
for political gain? I admit it sounds pretty far fetched. But consider.

Woud shrubco be dumb enough to start a war of conquest, under patently false pretenses that don't stand up to any serious scrutiny, for political gain? "It'll be beautiful. First we'll win midterms, by whipping up popular fear and patriotism over the war buildup. Then we have the people, and the media, fearful and eating out of our hands. No one votes out a wartime president. We already know we'll kick the ass of Saddam's Army since they're way weaker than when we kicked it the first time, after war and sanctions. Our contractor buds (Halliburton et al) will make out like a bandit, and we waltz to reelection awash in a sea of new oil revenue, with campaign commercials of shrub landing on a carrier (Mission Accomplished), statues of Saddam being pulled down, and Iraqis dancing in the streets and handing boquets of flowers to US soldiers. We'll own the WH, Congress and Senate for the next 50 years, LOL! A thing of beauty, and EVERYBODY WINS!!! It can't miss!"

So consider (the most paranoid of scenarios).

"Those Abu Ghraib frat stunts are really becoming a major pain in the ass. Our polling numbers on Iraq and across the board are WAY down. I mean, Red Alert/General Quarters down. By the way, what's the latest on that Berg kid? He tell you anything yet? We're getting a lot of REALLY ANNOYING calls and emails from the Dad."

"Uh... Bad news boss. He, uh, died during interrogation."

"WTF?!? :wtf: You weren't supposed to use Super Secret Interrogation Methods #19 and #20 on an American! Not where anyone could find out, anyway! Now what the hell are we gonna do? Does anyone else know about this?"

"Nah, we've still got him in the 'cooler' we keep for situations like this."

(Thinks)

"All right, I think I might have an idea how we might make some lemonade out of this lemon. It's a crazy plan, but it just might work. A long shot but if we pull it off, everyone comes out a winner. Get the Special Media Projects team assembled in the situation room."


(end paranoid scenario)

I think I'm just laying out one of the more extreme paranoid "fantasies" that people are thinking about. I'm not saying there is evidence for this or any other theory, any more than the "official story". So flame away!
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Don_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. Didn't They Find A Skeleton On Poppy's Preserve?
So, yes, it's possible.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. D-d-am-m-m-m-n!
Dubya would be a sick mofo, wouldn't he?
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. more plausible
Sounds a lot more plausible than the "official" Al Qaeda did it again version. Really. : smoke:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. Errraaa....
They've done it before... :shrug:

Hey, don't bogart! :smoke:
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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. These people are capable of ANYTHING. There is no conscience in those
walking dead bodies.
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. one problem
People saw Berg at his hotel after he was released by the US, and he claimed his time with the US was no big deal and all an adventure of sorts. I guess you'll have to amend the scenario to include a Berg double who went out and fooled everyone.

Is it possible the US did this? Of course. Is there any evidence at all to suggest they did? None at all.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Do you think the guy was a COMPLETE idiot?
Imagine if you saw something you weren't supposed to see in a US prison. Then, after your dad sues, they let you out.

Do you:

1) try to get home quietly ASAP

or

2) brag to everyone you know about your experience while moving around a war torn country?

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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. well, I know he wasn't DEAD
Edited on Sat May-15-04 11:05 PM by ant
The paranoid scenario put forward in the original post required that Berg be dead. As smart and as careful as he might've been, I suspect - though I guess I could be wrong here - that he would have a hard time playing it cool and getting out of the country quietly if he was dead. I base this argument on the fact that, in my experience, when a person is dead, it's hard for him to appear, you know, alive. Maybe that's just me, though.

If we're going to put forward self-described paranoid scenarios let's at least try to make sure they're in synch with the known facts. Berg couldn't have died during his period in US custody before April 9/10 because people saw and spoke to him after he was released. So unless, as I stated in my post, there was a Berg look alike out there, that particular twist on the story is simply not possible.

As for the claim that he was merely tortured and then released, and then kidnapped again to be killed because he might expose the torture: again, it just doesn't make much sense in light of how the people who saw him last describe him. While I don't know how smart Berg was, I suspect he was a human being, which means that experiencing/witnessing torture would've had some sort of impact on him. At the very least I would expect some physical evidence. We are, after all, talking about torture so extreme that the US government felt it had to murder him. It is claimed he walked around in jeans and a t-shirt - no one noticed even a bruise?

And beyond the lack of physical evidence, while I never claimed he would be bragging about it, I do think people who knew him or had spent time with him beforehand would've noticed "something odd." He seems to have a been a very happy go lucky kind of guy, and I just don't imagine that if he had experienced something so hideous that, again, the US government felt it had to murder him, he'd be able to play it that cool. He might not blab, but at the very least he would probably be a bit nervous and people would probably be saying that something was "not quite right" or "off" from the way he used to be.

So no physical evidence despite semi-revealing clothing and no out of the ordinary behavior. Yet somehow people believe this man experienced something so hideous - more hideous than what the photos we have already reveal - that he just had to be killed.

Right. :eyes:

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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Yes- Bush doesn't NEED any LIVE witnesses
Edited on Sat May-15-04 11:39 PM by Tellurian
well there it "IS"..

....Thats why the gold ring on the "white" contractor's man's finger.

....My understanding is Muslims frown upon gold accoutrements(?)

....The father is telling the Truth..

....Bush was trying to instigate hatred against the Arabs again w/this incident.


....911 came as Bush was slumping in the polls, remember(?)

edited for deplurifying..


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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
6. of course they would
they already snuffed 3000 citizens, plus 800 soldiers, plus tens of thousands of brwon-skinned people

one more is nothing.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
25. ... and don't forget the 10,000+ Iraqi citizens who were "snuffed."
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. Or suppose Berg SAW something while in prison?
Somehow that doesn't seem all that far out there to me.

How about you?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. An important "law" to remember is
that there isn't a system on earth thatwill not gladly sacrifice one of it's own for a moment's peace during a difficult time. You are right to be suspicious of anything this administration tells you. But keep in mind that many/most of them likely don't have a clue what happened.
The kid was working, loosely, for one of the private contractors helping Halliburton. As I said on an earlier post, think of the young kid Lee Harvey Oswald. He has a cover that confuses the public, because of the "mixed signals." But, in truth, we know his e-mail address was found where it's mighty danged hard to explain ... unless he had (in)directly helped gather info on the "20th highjacker."
Next thing, he's doing business in Iraq. Right. Set it up himself? No, he is "connected." When he's "picked up," it isn't really any different than LHO being picked up New Orleans. He gives his information while being "held" to the contact running his schedule.
After the torture photos were released, the agencies need a lamb to sacrifice. A dime is dropped. The enemy knows the boy's true identity. He meets up with them after being "released" and refusing safe refuge out of Iraq. He is taken into a room by men he doesn't realize KNOW him. A tape is being made. He doesn't get it, until they kill him. This is the ugly and brutal reality of special forces and a nasty war.
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. They found Lee harvey Oswald's e-mail address!?
At least that's what my brain decoded your post as. Damn senile dementia setting in and I'm not even forty yet! :-)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Maybe
you are 40, and the dementia has progressed. (grin) Okay, you know what I meant. Be nice to old folks!
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. dude! Look at your post count! Scary!!
Just in going with the mood of the thread here ......

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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
11. yes
anthrax killer-put a hit out on the lead demo`s, close the senate building,and terrorize the government. then tell the whores never to mention the anthrax killer again...it`s a small pool of people who could have done it...
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. Hmm. Would shrub be dumb enough to start an actual war over lies and
misleading statements? Would media be dumb enough to assist him? Would the people of this country jump onboard that train?


Yep.
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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
14. ROFLMAO!!
You guys just keep on comin'!

Is Bush dumb enough to kill one of his own citizens, then fake a video so amateurishly that conspiracy hobbyists sitting at their home computers can figure it out? When there is no apparent reason for doing that?


<<I think I'm just laying out one of the more extreme paranoid "fantasies" that people are thinking about. I'm not saying there is evidence for this or any other theory, any more than the "official story". So flame away!>>

If this were not such an ugly business, this parlor game might be fun. It -is- and 'extreme paranoid fantasy' and there -is- no evidence. And this -is- a serious business that requires serious thought--not wildly improbable speculation.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Do you EVER post anything other than
"Nothing to see here folks. Move along."

Why exactly would you be surprised to find that Berg's beheading was not a terrorist operation?

Because all non-terrorists are too competent to create a video that was so suspicious?

Because all non-terrorists are too compassionate to act out a beheading on an already dead body?

Why?
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
15. like Bartcop says: would evil men murder to conquer the world?
IMO they already have.

http://bushbodycount.com/
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
18. I'd put nothing past them.
n/t
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
21. Of course they would! That's obvious! What's silly is the speculation
Edited on Sun May-16-04 01:24 AM by maggrwaggr
that goes rampantly along with all this bullshit.

The "gold" ring, the white skin, the stupid chair, the jail pictures, all the silly-ass details that nobody really knows jack shit about, it's all PURE SPECULATION.

It's FANTASY.

But the fact of the matter is this:

Who benefitted from Berg's killing?

Who thought they would benefit from Berg's killing?

What purpose did Berg's killing serve in America?

Who has been lying about Berg?

When you answer those four questions, you will see there is plenty of reason to believe Berg was handed over to a bunch of folks more than happy to chop his head off on videotape ON PURPOSE.

We are living in a world where the most nasty, horrible and stupid things are REALITY, committed by people all the way up the chain of command to the President.

So tell me this. What is LESS likely? That Berg was randomly killed by a bunch of Al-Queda terrorists who just happened to be in Iraq and JUST HAPPENED to pick up a guy who had been held by the FBI for two weeks (and lied about it) and JUST HAPPENED to be Jewish and JUST HAPPENED to be a guy whose father is despised by right-wingers.

or

That Bushco needed an Al-Queda attack of sorts, couldn't have one here in the US (no, that would be bad), needed an American citizen to have an atrocity committed against him that would make the prison pictures PALE IN COMPARISON and yet at the same time would RAMP UP HATRED of "terrorists" and Iraqis and fundamentalist muslims in general?

Tell me which is least likely?

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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
22. It is more possible than less.
If one has read what the CIA has done in the past then
speculation of this event is not silly. It cannot be proven
that it was a merc or CIA op but it has not been proven that it was Al Q either, nor who they say the leader was. Forgot how to spell his name. Why did he wear a hood when his name is on the video and his photo has been on mainstream US TV Media many times? Why hasn't any org. claimed responsibily when the situation is now under suspicion by various media?

The CIA stated that the leader was al .... but the Pres. said definetly that it was the guy and used this for further PR for Iraq Occupation and the war of "terror". So, yeah, I am still interested in who really executed Berg and why.
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 04:09 AM
Response to Original message
23. They are evil & stupid and
therefore capable of literally anything. :evilfrown:
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 06:25 AM
Response to Original message
26. Delivered to the hands of "Murder Incorporated" ????.
Imagine a slight twist on your scenario - they did use Super Secret Interrogation Methods #19 and #20, he's let out alive, but they can't let the kid back home lest he tell his anti-war dad and the media believe him in the midst of the prisoner abuse scandal.

In this Sy Hersh interview by Diane Rehm, he hints of Rumsfeld's contacting Murder Incorporated - about 29 minutes in...
http://www.wamu.org/ram/2004/r1040504.ram

Also check Hersh's latest...

The people assigned to the program worked by the book, the former intelligence official told me. They created code words, and recruited, after careful screening, highly trained commandos and operatives from Americas lite forcesNavy seals, the Armys Delta Force, and the C.I.A.s paramilitary experts. They also asked some basic questions: Do the people working the problem have to use aliases? Yes. Do we need dead drops for the mail? Yes. No traceability and no budget. And some special-access programs are never fully briefed to Congress.


http://newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact

Now, imagine an even more secret op where Murder Incorporated (aka - the Mafia or the Russian Mafia) is recruited to clean up after the first secret op...





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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Kick
:kick:
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