Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Video of Berg WAS NOT His Death!

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Torgo4 Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:27 PM
Original message
Video of Berg WAS NOT His Death!
I think I figgered it out folks!

US Forces found Berg's headless body. How he was decapitated is unknown.

The MI/PSYOPs clowns hastily filmed this staged, hokey video (w/a docile ringer as Berg)that could've been cobbled together by a 5th grader, to take heat off Abu Graib story and convince any "fence-sitters" of our righteous cause! This explains a date stamp on the video 2 days (May 11) after US Forces recovered his body May 9.
Berg fell into their hands with no US fingerprints for his death and plot only involved the video people in what was merely a fraud---not murder!

Of course, now Bush is claiming the dead/one'legged Zarqawi involvement proves a link to Saddam...!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Not LBN
should be posted in GD
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. Many people are missing the point.
It is a strange situation, because the film is ugly, and of poor quality. But it is, I suspect, a waste of time to debate if the film is real or staged. In fact, it gets ridiculous: people sew a decapitated head on the body to make a propaganda film. This is a bit like the silly 11-22-63 debate about what direction "the" shots came from, when in fact they came from several. Anyhow: what is important is WHO killed him, and WHY?
Think in terms, curiously, of Lee Harvey Oddball. A smart kid, patriotic, wants adventure. He has contact with shadowy figures from private business that are connected to MI. He infiltrates "the bad guys." On occassion, he is "picked up" by the police; during what is supposed to be interrogation, he gives information to key people. He has a medium deep cover.
He believes he is of extreme value to those paying him, and directing his movements. He knows that his lap-top computer actually played an indirect role in gaining information on the "20th highjacker," who by no small coincidence is arrested on charges based in part upon information he helped to gather. Though he cannot actually tell this to anyone outside the company, he gives some information to his father, who is aware that the son is doing some high risk business.
But there comes a point, as LHO found, when the company needs a lamb to sacrifice. A dime is dropped, so to speak. The "bad guys" are now aware the boy is not who he has pretended to be.
There is no need to fake a tape. Real life MI and related activities are not like the fantasy movies where a head is reconnected to a corpse, etc. This is a war, and people play for keeps. That poor kid didn't know what was happening when the film started.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
soleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I was thinking about a scene from the Untouchables
Elliot Ness is trying to turn a witness after the wiskey bust.

Sean Connery picks up a dead body and holds it up to a window where the witness can see, and shoots a dead body in order freak out the witness, who immediately starts spilling his guts.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Invalence1 Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Point well taken, but...
why the 11 hr "gap" in the VCR timer in the lower corner of the screen? Why the conspicuously absent blood? I know from personal observation (military and EMS) that the precipitous removal of a major body part will yield a pretty impressive exsanguination, under pressure. Raises questions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Question on time gap answered, if you're willing to believe it.
Two cameras, with two different times, footage edited together. Could be they didn't want to run the risk of one camera not catching everything or battery crapping out, so they ran two as insurance and edited the best footage from each together. Made sure there was "continuity" to prevent suggestion that anything was filmed not in real time, meaning audio blends from one camera to the other.

I realize that doesn't fit your conspiracy theory. But if you just want to take your theory as gospel without testing it, well, you can have my :tinfoilhat:, too.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Invalence1 Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Question answered?
It seems to me IMHO, that what is offered in this post is not an answer to a question, but rather another theory. Also, I offered no "theory" conspiracy or otherwise. Merely offered observations, posed as questions. One of which would seem to be pretty significant. It's fairly difficult to remove the head of a living breathing person (or any other animal for that matter) without a significant amount of spurting blood (exsanguination). Also, after the head is suddenly removed, any animal will exhibit a rather lengthy period of extreme random neuromuscular activity (floppin' about like a beached tarpon). This was not in evidence on the video. Why? Finally, 2 cameras? Spliced film? Sounds positively Roveian.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I thought your questions
were very good. I also thought the 2-camera idea was offered as a serious attempt to explain a possibility. None of us know for sure. It's good to have an open mind, to ask serious questions, and to examine potential answers. None of us should be insulting each other. I am trying not to, though I do find some of the fantasy theories weak at best.
I'll take this away from humans for a moment. I've butchered enough animals in years long past to know that there usually is blood and bowel movements and thrashing when a head is lopped off. But not always. I do not pretend to know why. But I know from experience that exceptions to rules occure. It would, of course, seem highly unlikely that there was not blood etc. I have not watched the entire video, and have no interest. I tend to focus on the "why" something happened; once understood, the "how" becomes evident.
Again, I am only expressing my opinion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. I posted this in another thread, sorry for the dupe. . .
. . . .but since there are sooooooooooooooo many threads on this, I figure the info might as well be in all of them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Briefly -- DUer MiddleMen did a frame by frame analysis of the video, came to the conclusion based on camera angle, time stamp, audio synch, continuity, etc., that it was one action (the murder of Nick Berg) filmed in real time by two cameras.

Continuity means that if Berg was alive in one time stamp/camera feed but never seen alive in the other time stamp/camera feed, there might be cause to suspect one action had been filmed in real time and then other footage spliced in later. However, he carefully notes that Berg is alive and speaking in BOTH TIME STAMPS and therefore the two feeds could not reasonably have been filmed at separate places/times.

There are also explanations for many of the other "anomalies": exsangination not visible on tape due to Berg's body position; MiddleMen notes that there is a very large stain on the mat, consistent with what others suggested would be the expected size of such a bloodstain.

Lack of body movement could be explained by the severe binding of Berg -- hands, feet, someone holding him down, etc.

Just keeping MiddleMen's excellent analysis (and hard work) from sliding entirely into the archives.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Invalence1 Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. As to the offer...
I'll leave the conspiracies, the gospel and the tin hat, I'll leave those to the neocons. (Jeb, Katherine and the Supremes spring to mind for some reason.....) But thanks for the offer anyway.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. the point is we waste time arguing....
and that was why entire production occured the way it did...to get skeptics saying the vid's a fake; then 'bush supporters' say 'pshaw! bloody idiot conspiracy theorists!'
we call them bushevik traitors; they call us hopeless dreamers, we say they evil, they say we evil as a result of blind stupidity; meanwhile time passes and fox/cnn pass their corrupt judgement
REITERATE REITERATE REITERATE they are ENTERTAINING the fat people...US! NOT Even Rush Limbaugh-humbug or shawn han-ittybitty or don anus would argue with THAT! SOMETHING"S OUT OF CONTROL!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. you are saying his family wouldn't know
if it was their sone in that video?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. There are many questions.
Edited on Sat May-15-04 04:52 PM by H2O Man
But many people seem confused about issues such as who is in the video, (obviously only one person is known), and are getting off track.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. excuse me but
"(w/a docile ringer as Berg)"

yes, you said it wasn't him. I'm not sure why...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. this ain't weekend at bernie's
Berg fidgets around.. he moved his shoulders and curls his toes a few times. Also, the audio/video is out of sync. He clears his throat about 7 seconds before the video shoes his hand going up to his mouth at about 3 mins in. And the whole page flipping thing is kind of odd. He turns pages over flips them around almost like he's playing with a deck of cards, yet no long gaps in his speech.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Torgo4 Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. If Set Up Hastily by MI...
It may not go far up the chain. Maybe no higher than E-7 or Captain.

Al Jazeera stated yesterday (sorry no link) that the video was accessible to CNN, Fox, but not them. Kinda strange since AJ has always been the drop-off for AQ to the West messages.

Smelling fishy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. It's indeed "fishy"
Still, there's little or no reason to think it was set up hastily. Rather, it was set up very well. MI / black ops did not kill the boy. They only had to make sure his identity was known to the opposition. Listen: there is no way in hell that the torture photos could become public and not get a severe response. (Not saying all/most Muslims are violent, etc, but that there are segments who don't play.) I think the boy's dad has more of an idea of what happened than he is able to say publicly. Keep the LHO model in mind: most people believe he was a disgruntled freak, not a smart kid acting a role. Like 11-22-63, it's "fishy." Strip away the layers of crap, don't add to them. Much of the discussion, even on DU, is only DISTRACTING attention away from the truth. That's normal. What happened isn't normal. Think outside the curve.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. exactly!
and the busheviks get to play the game on their ground, going back to core idea: an innocent was murdered horribly. yet that's not the core idea. the core idea is someone wants us to argue about whether or not video truthfully depicts an innocent murdered horribly....
neat, like stealing from a blind man
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. He was alive (probably drugged) during the reading of the speech.
Was this filmed during his initial stay in a US prison as "insurance"?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lou_C Donating Member (944 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. He didn't move when they were cutting his head off
Don't you find that kind of strange?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. That part came AFTER an obvious camera edit. (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. Well the position he was in might explain it? He was laying on his hands
which were bound in front of him, his feet were bound, and his head was raised up in the air. He also had people holding him did he not? I could not watch the entire video, I stopped before the deed was done.

But who knows what would go through your mind at a time like that? One might be so frightened they literally can't move? I think there is a term for it called "fear paralysis" ???
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
21. When Berg's body was found
there was no mention of it being headless. All the press said was that there was possibly some signs of trauma.

BTW: Where's the autopsy and who is running the murder investigation? I've seen no mention of either.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Torgo4 Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Ahhh...The Autopsy!
I believe Berg's folks were not permitted to attend his remains at Dover.

Video images are easily faked, especially when kicked out by the side "making a point!". Physical evidence, which we seem to lack until months later, if ever, is a lot tougher.

Where the f--- is "Quincy" when you need him?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. IIRC, the body and head were found separately.
It has been my experience that initial reports of the discovery of bodies are sometimes "sanitized" pending such preliminary activities as notification of next of kin or even identification of the victim.

In Berg's case, I think it's possible that the initial report came out a.) before the discovery of the head, and/or b.) identification of the victim.

Is there a rationale for not releasing the information? Yes. If the news is released that a headless and/or unidentified body has been discovered, there may be attempts on the part of other individuals to withhold the head, as gruesome as that may sound. In essence, the holding of it for some kind of ransom. I suspect that had the head not been found within a short time, there would have been more descriptive reports.

(Also, since we haven't been given many details about the condition of the body, and since I don't know much about the area in which the body was found, I suppose it is possible that someone may have initially suspected quasi-natural causes for the lack of a head. If the area is rather remote -- though the mention of a bridge suggests it isn't terribly remote -- and if there are wild animals in the vicinity, it is possible that someone may have left room for the possibility of animal depredation of the corpse. This happens frequently when bodies are dumped in remote areas; until developers scraped the desert bare and began building houses on it a couple years ago, my area west of Phoenix was a favored dumping ground, and not all the body parts were recovered.)

Many writers of news copy -- not all, I'm sure, but many -- make a sincere effort to be accurate rather than speculative. Hence, the use of the word "trauma" to indicate severe injury, rather than a more speculative and sensationalistic "beheaded" or even "decapitated."

If one wishes to get tinfoilish over this particular detail, I would suggest one also take into consideration that -- as far as I know -- no news report has described any indications of how long Mr. Berg had been dead before his body was discovered nor what he was wearing. The news reports are leaving out a great deal of information which may or may not be relevant to any investigations.

I personally won't read too much into the semantic debate over "trauma" vs. "beheaded." At least not yet.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Sticking with the facts may be best
If you read the initial reports, then you would know that Berg's body was found on a Baghdad overpass by US Forces. Not exactly a remote area.

When the body was found it was reported that there was possibly some signs of trauma. Being headless would be a big sign of trauma you would think?

However despite the fact, that Berg was headless, they were able to ID him and had already notified his family when the first report appeared in the press.


Body found on Baghdad overpass identified as that of American

By Louis Meixler, Associated Press, 5/11/2004 11:36

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) Relatives and U.S. officials said Tuesday a body found on a Baghdad highway overpass was that of an American civilian contract worker missing since April 9 the same day insurgents attacked a U.S. convoy west of the capital.

<snip>

The body found on the overpass was identified as Nick Berg, 26, of West Chester, Pa., a self-employed civilian contractor. Berg's body, with signs of trauma, was found Saturday, the military said.

The family was informed Monday of his death.


Now, if you have any links to any reports in the press that say the body and the head were found separately, I would love to see them.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. I did read the reports. I was offering POSSIBLE explanations.
I read one report regarding where the head was found, but that report was within a thread on DU, so it could be anywhere in the zillions of threads. And I'm not taking it as gospel anyway. I only made suggestions.

I have not seen any photos of the body, and a routine Google didn't turn up any either. Nor any reports of when and/or where the head might have been found. Nor any reports regarding the condition of the body (how long dead, other signs of trauma, etc.).

I agree on the waiting for the facts issue, definitely! Because there seem to be so many people drawing conclusions based on few facts and lots of speculation, I'm just offering possible alternatives to the speculations/questions to show that there are other possibilities.

I think it's kind of silly for anyone to say, "The newspaper report says the body showed signs of trauma. Beheading is more than just trauma. Therefore the CIA offed him!" Not that anyone has literally made that jump, but I think some are coming a bit close. I'm just trying to help anyone who's interested to maintain perspective.

Do I think it's possible some element of the BFEE conspired to have Berg murdered? Actually, yes, I do. But do I think any of the "evidence" presented here on DU is solid support for that kind of theory, in a word, no.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. If you don't like speculation
then why do you want to add the confusion even more but presenting wild speculations that don't even relate to the facts that we already know?




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I never said I didn't like speculation.
And I wasn't "speculating" that any of the events that I suggested *DID* happen. I only offered suggestions of possible scenarii. In some cases, my suggestions conflicted with others. Is there something wrong with that?

I offered what I considered plausible alternatives, none of which I espoused as being THE answer. I was merely suggesting that others who seem to feel their particular theories are carved in stone might want to consider alternatives.

But I guess if they consider their theories are carved in stone, they won't even consider other possibilities.

One person who viewed the video frame by frame said that his analysis showed Berg was alive in both "time-stamp" segments of the video. Despite this analysis, there are many people who have not even viewed the video insisting that the different time stamps are indicative of the substitution of a dead body -- Berg's or someone else's -- for the beheading scene.

Now, I'm not going to watch the video. Period. But for those who HAVE seen it or are willing to watch it, I've offered MiddleMen's analysis for their comparison.

I haven't seen anyone who has carefully studied the video refute his analysis.

If someone has a reliable news report -- and who knows what's reliable these days? -- that shows when and where Berg's head was found, please post. I don't have one, so I'm not going to "speculate" on when or where or in what condition. But I do think those are valid questions.

Likewise, the statement that Berg's body was found at a Baghdad overpass, indicating not a remote location. I'm not familiar enough with Baghdad and its overpasses to be able to compare them to, say, a freeway overpass in Phoenix. Since there haven't been any reports of anyone actually seeing the body being dumped, one might be tempted to presume that this overpass was not particularly busy at least at the time that the body was dumped. Was there a curfew? Was it dumped when there wasn't any traffic? Do we know for sure how well-traveled this particular road was?

I just think anyone who engages in speculation should -- but they don't have to -- avoid leaping to bizarre and unfounded conclusions. The figures in the video might indeed have had very light-skinned hands, but does the presence of light skin automatically mean they were CIA/Black Ops agents? That's the kind of leap I think is dangerous. It precludes any other explanation, or even possible explanation.

As others have posted, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I think it's POSSIBLE -- amongst a welter of other possibilities -- that Mr. Berg was an independent contractor who was in Iraq with several possible motives -- to make some money, to see the world, to help people, to make connections with relatives-by-marriage. His lack of official connections made him suspect and a routine check-point inspection of his passport revealed an Israeli stamp and ended up with him being taken into custody. By whom and for what reasons, well, we aren't sure yet. We have the family's testimony and the various releases of government information, but do we trust any of it? Trust only what we want to trust?

Was Berg fingered by Iraqis while he was in prison? Was he tagged as a lone wolf who might make a good target for hostage taking? We've been told that there are as many as 40 civilians "missing" in Iraq. Berg's disappearance in april wasn't enough to attract major media attention, no "amber alert" or anything. not even after the murders of the four contractors/mercenaries in Fallujah. (I won't even go into the fact that many here on DU decried the presence of those civilian/mercenaries, and yet now they are making Berg into a totally innocent. . . but that's another topic for discussion.) We don't know who holds the other missing civilians, or if they are being held or have already been killed. There's a great deal we don't know.

I don't mind speculation at all. I dislike unfounded speculation, because I think it distracts the serious investigator (here on DU or elsewhere) from examining truly relevant information.

That's all. sorry I offended.

Tansy Gold, who isn't really
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Speculation is fine
as long as you present it as such.

However, in your original post (#23) you claim that the body and head had been found and you present that information as if it were fact. That is what I have a problem with, I really don't have a problem with any of the rest of it, because after that it is clear you are speculating, much of which is rather far fetched. Just curious, what is IIRC?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. There was a photo of his body shown on a Web site.
I can't remember which one. But it was headless. I have one question, though. The photo of the body I saw was fully clothed. No orange jumpsuit. Did they change his clothes?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
26. And the point is?
The amateurishly shot and edited video posted on some website turns may have been amateurishly altered for dramatic effect. So amateurish that conspiracist hobbyists can easily detect the fraud.

The emotional impact of the film -may- give Bush a bump in the overnight polls, but the long-term effect is, obviously, to enhance the overall impression that Iraq is totally out of control.

And this somehow proves that Bush/CIA actually shot and pasted the video?

I can think of several more probable hypotheses.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
exDinosoar Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
28. Love your documentation supporting your claim
How can anyone disagree with such a cut and dried case?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
31. I actually watched the video once to see what..
the fuss was about. Never again, though. I think it's pretty clear he was dead before getting beheaded. The time might be off in many ways. The rest is interesting reading and I haven't made my mind up. Even if we weren't involved in some way, it's not above Al Qaeda to doctor a video to scare Americans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
33. Could be. I do wonder how many of us wish this were the case and thus
refuse to believe otherwise?

I know I'd love to find out that he died peacefully, *lethal injection* or ??? but I won't hold my breath on that.

I like your scenario much better then what we are hearing about though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Jul 23rd 2014, 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC