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What's the difference between the Neo-Cons and "real" Conservatives?

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:39 PM
Original message
What's the difference between the Neo-Cons and "real" Conservatives?
Edited on Sat May-15-04 02:56 PM by kentuck
First of all, don't "real" conservatives believe in fiscal responsibility, and things such as balanced budgets and less government spending? This bunch of neo-cons has blown that theory out of the water. The government spending under them is 3 to 4 times as much as it was under Bill Clinton. Of course, everybody knows that the deficits are the largest on record. They pretend it really doesn't matter because you have to look at it as a percentage of GDP or some such BS...

Not to mention what the Neo-Cons have done with our Constitution and the Patriot Act. Surely real conservatives have always tried to adhere to a strict interpretation of the Constitution. No real conservative could agree with Ashcroft and Bush with what they have done to individual rights and individual freedoms?

Are there more obvious differences in these "fake" conservatives and those that profess to be real Repubs?
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. the degree of greediness
nt
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. Isolationism
is another trait of some conservatives, such as Buchanan. Recently, he's been saying that the Iraq adventure has been a big mistake.
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physioex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. Exactly Kentuck...
I can actually sympathize with the true conservatives. The notion of get government out of peoples lives and have less of it. But that is not what the Republican party represents. They have been hijacked by the evangelicals and the neo-cons. The neo-cons are interested in american imperialism and they use the evangelicals and wing nuts like El Drugbo to that end. They Repugs have called the Dems "Tax and Spend", but that's just what they have become.How is there less government when this country attacks unarmed countries? Take away freedoms domestically? Faith based initiatives? Enough is Enough!!
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taxidriver Donating Member (663 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. classic conservatives look almost like libertarians
next to the neocons.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. Neo-cons are crooks no different from Tony Soprano.
True conservatives should kick them out.
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TheWizardOfMudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. Read this, if you haven't already
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livinginphotographs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. I love the line about "tax and spend democrats."
I was born in 1980, so I'm only going to go so far back.

Reagan - record deficits
Bush 1 - raised taxes
Clinton - ended his term with a budget surplus
King George - record deficits

What am I missing here?
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Centre_Left Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. For the record...
There was never a budget "surplus" under Clinton, at least not based on any reasonable definition of that term.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Yes, there was.
For two years, more revenue came into the Treasury than went out. Almost $250 billion dollars more. Of course, that was not enough to pay off our entire debt, if that is what you mean? But we were not borrowing money for our expenditures.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
8. Rockefeller's- the later bunch
john anderson from il, most republican senators from the 50`s and early 60`s..the john birches,goldwater,etc were considered right wing but now they are just right of center compared to the neo`s.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. Definition from old thread (linked) below. Neocon is strictly a foreign
policy thing. It's really a distinct movement and theory of foreign policy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
10. real conservatives support three branches of government:
legislative, executive and judicial.

neo cons recognize a triumvirate: the executive, military and corporate.

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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
12. reals cons admire goldwater, neocons admire robespierre & trotsky
Edited on Sat May-15-04 03:18 PM by kodi
cons vest power in the individual, and suffer the necessity of government.

neo cons vest power in the state and suck off its power like little piglets.

one has to appreicate the bathos of the situation; the new deal spawned the nanny-state for the benefit of the least amongst us. but in building the artifice (or is that the orifice?) of the national welfare state, liberals unleased a powerful social force that penetrates into almost every aspect of our lives, and now it has been harnessed by those who would use it for private gain over public good.

just as scientists developed the physics that built the a-bomb and had it appropriated by the generals, liberals built the modern state and have seen its reins be taken into the hands of those who misuse it.
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Leftists, Libertarians, real Conservatives are all Civil Libertarians.
Edited on Sat May-15-04 03:27 PM by cyclezealot
We all fear the power of the state to be regressive..Neo Cons are regressive, because they eagerly use the power of the state to further their onw best interests' interest... Like Halliburton in the Middle East or Cheap Labor and neo Nazi's in El Salvador. Unfortuntely, some Democrats get suckered into this hole.
Like what I once heard from a wise political sage...
"You have to bribe Democrats to do, what Repug do automatically."
Goldwater was a real conservative. Yes, a stingy one but he would certainly not shred to hell the intent of our Constitutional liberties. His laissez government would let the power of "Big bidness" run rampant, but he would not approve of government expenditures to further those monopolistic aspirations.
Those aspirations need no support..They are doing quite well on their own ,thank you.
Remember, Goldwater before he died acted as does Walter Cronkite in regards to the idea of seperation of church and state. Goldwater and Fallwell. Definitely on the outs and not in tune with the present state of the Arizona GOP.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
15. Maybe it's that neo-cons are consciously evil and almost always lie
and "real conservatives" are too naive and/or uninformed to realize this.

I never have been able to understand how "real conservatives" cannot see through these obviously totalitarianist neo-cons, and how they continue to support these fascists that have enacted policies that seem to be directly opposite of "real conservative" principles.
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homelandpunk Donating Member (787 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
16. Real conservatives admit * is a moron. And they care about freedom
and liberty, not use those words blasphemously like neo-cons do.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
17. 'To 'real' Conservatives Constitution=blueprint for system of government
To neocons, it equals toilet paper.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
18. best I can tell
true neocons don't really believe in anything except their own desire for wealth. They have manipulated the American right (because it is mentally weaker and easier to manipulate).

The conservative "ideals" they express are just so much convenient rhetoric used to mislead those who actually believe in real conservatism's simplistic and short-sighted world view.
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physioex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. That goes back to what Leo Strauss thought.....
Rule without morality. Lie and keep the masses disillusioned. Unfortunately they did not account for the educated people like us, and another interesting twist new technology such as digital cameras.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Paleo-Conservatives
Real Conservatives detest the Neocons but are caught
between a rock and a hard place. They can't go against
their own party because it will make them seem unpatriotic.
True Conservatives know that the Neocons usurped the Republican
Party and that Right Wing Fundies and the Jewish Right Wingers have real power in the party. To go against these three groups would be
political suicide. The real power now are the Multi-Corps who hold no alligiance to the concept of America and view themselves as world corps with no responsibilty to America or American workers.
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
21. It doesnt say much for the Conservatives
to be hijacked so easily. As a matter of fact it shows a real tendency to fall into a Nazi type stupor like the Germans did in WW2. I guess that means they are weak willed.
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Texican Donating Member (164 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
22. Totally Opposed To Conservatism
They are Wolfies in sheeps clothing. Here is a good site.

http://neoconswatch.blogspot.com/
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
23. I would say that those still supporting Bush are neocons
No rational person would be supporting this murderous, lying thug.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. That's a good point leesa....
How could they continue to support him and his agenda if they did not believe as the Neo-Cons do??
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
25. There's a quiz
Edited on Sat May-15-04 10:49 PM by DesertedRose
http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/quiz/neoconQui...

And of COURSE I came out "Liberal..." but it has an explanation (as the CS Monitor defines them) of NeoCon, et.al. See if you agree or not:

Isolationist

The term isolationist is most often used negatively; few people who share its beliefs use it to describe their own foreign policy perspective. They believe in "America first." For them, national sovereignty trumps international relations. Many unions, libertarians, and anti-globalization protesters share isolationist tenets.

Isolationists:
Are wary of US involvement in the United Nations
Oppose international law, alliances, and agreements
Believe the US should not act as a global cop
Support trade practices that protect American workers
Oppose liberal immigration
Oppose American imperialism
Desire to preserve what they see as America's national identity and character

Historical isolationist: President Calvin Coolidge
Modern isolationist: Author/Commentator Pat Buchanan



Liberal

Liberals:
Are wary of American arrogance and hypocrisy
Trace much of today's anti-American hatred to previous US foreign policies.
Believe political solutions are inherently superior to military solutions
Believe the US is morally bound to intervene in humanitarian crises
Oppose American imperialism
Support international law, alliances, and agreements
Encourage US participation in the UN
Believe US economic policies must help lift up the world's poor

Historical liberal: President Woodrow Wilson
Modern liberal: President Jimmy Carter



Realist

Realists:

Are guided more by practical considerations than ideological vision
Believe US power is crucial to successful diplomacy - and vice versa
Don't want US policy options unduly limited by world opinion or ethical considerations
Believe strong alliances are important to US interests
Weigh the political costs of foreign action
Believe foreign intervention must be dictated by compelling national interest

Historical realist: President Dwight D. Eisenhower
Modern realist: Secretary of State Colin Powell



Neoconservative

Neoconservatives:

Want the US to be the world's unchallenged superpower
Share unwavering support for Israel
Support American unilateral action
Support preemptive strikes to remove perceived threats to US security
Promote the development of an American empire
Equate American power with the potential for world peace
Seek to democratize the Arab world
Push regime change in states deemed threats to the US or its allies

Historical neoconservative: President Teddy Roosevelt
Modern neoconservative: President Ronald Reagan

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