I WON'T give RWer's who admit the war was a mistake a pass

[homelandpunk]

or any thing resembling "understanding" and/or a "glad you've come around" pat on the back. That includes people I know who already "have come around"....it makes me even more disgusted by them.
Why?
Because if the Sears tower was slammed into tomorrow by a jet hijacked by "Saudi's" under OBVIOUS (even more blatant than 9/11)circumstances, they would wait for Bush & Cheney to tell them how important it is to invade Syria now because of (insert BIG OBVIOUS LIE), and they would thirstily lap up the lies, ignore the pile of bullshit, and would proudly give Bush the backing to go kill more innocent people and open the gates of hell even wider.

I don't care how many people you encounter who you know are RWer's who admit Iraq was a mistake. THAT gives us hope? It makes me even more determined to defeat these people on every front. And in the current climate there is not much hope.

They would do it again. They would ignore ignore ignore everything but Bush and his glorious lies.

I don't care if you wanna say let's USE these evil people to minimize support for Bush around election time, but I WILL NOT give them understanding or compassion for their stupidity. Their stupidity is based in evil, not on being born clinically retarded, or a brain injury they suffered recently. They were wrong because they were evil and STILL are. Their current remorse is evil. I hate their love of Bush and war and willful ignorance of atrocities by the U.S.

To sum up: they have NOT changed. Please do not show these evil morons understanding when they "admit" it was a mistake.

[salinen]

1. Sorry

I will always allow someone forgiveness for their mistakes, even Friedman.

[aquart]

3. Well, Friedman. Hmm.

Is he aware he's made any mistakes?

[unblock]

4. me too. but ONLY AFTER FIXING THE MISTAKE

the time for forgiveness is when kerry is in office, republicans do not control cogress, and any 5-4 court majorities are in our favor.

only then can one forgive.

[aquart]

2. "Evil morons"?

These are your fellow Americans. We don't "USE" them. They aren't Kleenex. They are human beings with hopes, fears, and families.

"Stupidity based on evil"? Your use of "evil" sounds more like George W. Bush than a Democrat. What, precisely, is evil? Anything that disagrees with you?

If compassion is not your thing, is it possible you are in the wrong place?

[RapidCreek]

9. Hmmm Interesting

Is robbing a bank wrong because it is stealing and morally reprehensible and puts undue stress on your fellows? Or is robbing a bank wrong because you can go to jail when you get caught. Is raping someone wrong because it tears at the fabric of civilization and ireparablely damages another human being or is raping someone wrong becuase you can go to jail if you get caught. Is murdering someone wrong because it is deleterious to the continued healthy ezistance (and a lot of other reasons) of the human animal or is it wrong becuase you can go to jail for committing one?

Is it wrong to pimp a war using rational you know to be false...to engineer and put forth propoganda based on that rational to an unsuspecting public...a public whose aquesience is necessary to wage that war, a public which will be severely harmed by that war but from which you shall benefit? Or is it wrong only when you get caught?


These sorts wouldn't feel marching people off to death camps was wrong unless it was them being marched off to the death camp. They wouldn't feel war was wrong unless it was their family or their kid or them which would most likely die as a result of that war. They wouldn't feel pimping either was wrong unless they stood a good chance of paying a serious price for their actions.

These "fellow human beings" you are so eager to forgive feel something "isn't worth it" or is "wrong" only if it affects them directly in a negative fashion. This is the definition of a sociopath. It is also the definition of EVIL. One can certainly offer compassion to a person incapable of compassion themselves. That person who is incapable of compassion will bask in the warmth of its glow until throwing your ass in a gas chamber warms them more.

RC

[homelandpunk]

10. MY use of evil? Haha.

Look dude, just put me on your ignore list. I get so tired of this "are you in the wrong forum" bullshit.

You won't even admit my point that the EVIL (as in they don't mind, one bit, blowing off arms and legs of children who did nothing to them in a country that did nothing to them) MORON'S (as in they actually listen to Bush and feel inspired) who "admit" the mistake of Iraq, would do it allllllllll over again and embrace the lies alllllllll over again...in a minute. Compassion? Given just a little bogus psychological jolt, they comply. I don't have compassion for people I CANNOT trust. MORON'S? Yes. EVIL? Fascists are evil in my book. Is their a pink tutu definition for evil? I'd like to hear it!

[pop goes the weasel]

5. way to paint with a broad brush

If you live long enough, you will learn that many people make substantial changes in the way they see the world over time, given enough new information. In fact, liberalism depends on it. It is the conservative viewpoint that people can't and don't change. Now, which are you again?

[homelandpunk]

11. Name me a RWer who has admitted that this was a mistake

whom you can trust NOT to do it again?

Progressivism depends on education. They "admit" a mistake, but will not educate themselves. They remain the same. I will fight that. And i will fight pink tutu democrat's calling me a BAD person if I have to, as well.

[pop goes the weasel]

44. I know a few personally

As for people who supported the war, our current nominee backed it. I hope to humanity that he has educated himself and learned something.

[kaitykaity]

6. Gee, and I thought we were

different from our enemies. I thought we were more intelligent,
more open, more forgiving. I can understand being angry at
their stupidity, but I can't understand wanting to cut off our
own nose to spite our face.

If we want to win, we need the RWingers who have seen the light.
Period. End of story.

Geez.

[homelandpunk]

12. I don't want them for my nose....they don't even make a

good enough asshole I could use.

[kaitykaity]

14. So they're not human to you, eh?

And if you say no, then you're on the wrong damn
side.

[homelandpunk]

18. I don't have a bad taste in my mouth, which means you were

not in there taking words out of it.

[kaitykaity]

19. Answer the damn question.

Because your rhetoric assumes that they are not human, and
I want you to own up to it.

If you don't . . . .

[homelandpunk]

20. If I don't answer YOU putting words in my mouth?? That's rich.

From YOUR rhetoric I am going to demand that you admit that you have a fondness for Joe Lieberman, Alan Colmes, and all the pink tutu's.

Admit it!

"If you don't....."

[kaitykaity]

22. Excuse me?

Now you're calling ME names?

You have just used an ad hominem attack that completely
invalidates your argument.

Now who has egg on their face?

Tsk tsk tsk.

[homelandpunk]

25. Please cite the

name calling.
I used your tactic. And now the tsk, tsk for setting yourself up like that.

[kaitykaity]

27. You said I'm a Pink Tutu.

I'm "fond" of pink tutus Democrats.

That's name-calling.

Slam.

[homelandpunk]

30. That slam you heard?

That was your argument hitting pavement. You first used "I am going to ASSUME from your rhetoric...blah, blah, innuendo, smear, blah."
Calling me compassionless in so many words. That hurts. Cause I know if civil war were to break out here and I have to shoot neo-con fascists on the battlefield, that I will aim to kill them instantly so they do not suffer at all.

Re-read my post. I called Joe Lieberman and Alan Colmes a pink tutu.

Duh.

[kaitykaity]

31. Wrong.

I asked you a question. You ducked it. Are RWingers
human to you or not? I characterized your rhetoric, and
you refused to answer the question. The onus is on you
to explain how your position towards Wingers is humane.

Your reluctance to address this makes you the loser here.
What, did you miss your rhetoric classes or something?

[homelandpunk]

32. OK!! <sob> I admit it!!! <whimper> Oh! <sniff>

I admit that you, in your OWN words "characterized my rhetoric". i.e. put words in my mouth.

I admit I am decent and humane! THERE damn you!!
Damn you-hoo-hoo<SOB>!!!
I admit I will not stack RW fascist prisoners in the coming civil war into human pyramids! However I will let them them play naked Twister as part of the prison recreation program. But it will NOT be enforced.
<sob> You broke me!

[kaitykaity]

34. When did restating your position in the form

of a question become an illegal rhetorical tactic?

Uh, it didn't. You're taking offense because you
know it beats you.

If they're human, they deserve humane treatment,
and your positions are inconsistent with that.
If they're human, and they admit they were wrong
and genuinely ask for forgiveness, who are you
to judge them?

Slam. Dunk. Score!!!!

[homelandpunk]

36. Your TORTUROUS logic is inhumane.

I have not met a repentant ex-fascist, ex-warmonger. I have met RW Bush lovers admiting it was a mistake, but who would do it ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL over again given the right (bogus) psychological jolt to their feeble little brains. They would be as bloodthirsty as before. Let's be clear: these people are not asking for forgiveness. They care not a wit about the ten year old Iraqi boy(s and girls) with 3 inch stumps for arms and legs, and if asked if they were specifically sorry for that, they would sneer and say "war is war" or some fascist bullshit.
Question their understanding of humanity. Not mine.

slam. dunk. blah.

[kaitykaity]

It is, huh?

It's perfectly clear to me.

I have noticed you differentiante between RWingers and
neocon fascists. Do you differentiate between their
treatment after repentance as well?

Let's be perfectly honest here. Your anger is righteous,
but your methods are faulty. You began this discussion with
an attack on RWingers, when you were really talking about
neocon fascists.

Neocon fascists are not going to ask for forgiveness, because
they are ideologically committed to their cause. One could
even call them fanatics.

You obviously are tilting at windmills here, as you are
targeting a group of people who do not exist.



Get that lame stuff out of here.

[homelandpunk]

39. Do you really think I was

talking about old school William Buckley conservatives! Of course THOSE people are NOT in my sights!
Those kind of GOOD people never were gung-ho for this war anyway. Those people will not vote for * next time.
I hope I am clear WHO I am taking about.
I have to say evil neo-con fascists? Okay. "Evil neo-con fascists". Which unfortunately these days CAN and DO go under the heading "RWer". It is too bad these evil fascists can be called GOPers, or RWers, or conservatives, sans neo. But they are.

[kaitykaity]

41. If you're going to be so defensive regarding

questions or comments, then you need to be more precise in
your language. If you mean neocon fascists, say neocon
fascists. I would have posted then that I did not believe
any of them would see the error of their ways and so there
would be no one for you to forgive.

But if you had been precise, then you and I would not have
had this fascinating conversation. So go ahead and be imprecise
to your heart's content.

[thebigidea]

7. of course, there's a difference between Joe Muttonhead on the corner...

... and Tom Friedman.

Joe Muttonhead and his overworked and somewhat less that well-meaning cousin, Sally Salmonella, well - if they admit they were wrong, sure! Great! Glad to have you aboard! What took ya so long?

But the likes of Tom Friedman? He spent most of his time in 2002-2003 selling America this war. There is no excuse - no matter how many mea culpas he utters, his pundit license has expired.

[mitchum]

28. Absolutely!

I agree with you completely about holding the shills, cheerleaders, and lapdogs accountable.

[leftofthedial]

8. I don't forgive the "good Germans" either

they're all fascists.

Anyone who ever supported the bushgang or their war must be watched for the rest of their lives and can never again be trusted. There is no margin of error when dealing with fascists.

[homelandpunk]

13. I can't believe only 1 out of 9 is loathe as I am to trust these "repent

ant" fascists just because they "admitted" a mistake that was not, in their view, their own.
Okay. I will take one out of nine. Thanks for the support.

[Raenelle]

15. No, we need everyone possible on our side--progress, not perfection

That's the most we can expect from imperfect human beings.

However, having said that, let me repeat here one of my favorite lines. First, to preface it, you need to be familiar with that old, old joke about the Lone Ranger and Tonto being surrounded by Indians. The Lone Ranger turns to Tonto and asks "What do we do Tonto," and Tonto replies "What do you mean 'we' Paleface?"

So, when former war supporters start with "We had good motives, but . . .," the correct retort is: "What do you mean 'we' warhead?"

I got that from Busy, Busy, Busy. And I can't wait to use it for real on someone.

[kaitykaity]

16. lol.

That's a terrific line. I'm gonna use it, too.

[SpiralHawk]

17. The quality of mercy is not strained

All you hypocrites and liars
In the temple seeking gain
All you senators and lawyers
With your motives to explain
All you victims and you heroes
Your petitions to complain
All you murderers and martyrs
On the fields where you lay slain
On the just and unjust
Alike it doth rain
And the quality of mercy is not strained

Yes vengeance and revenge
Are just two words for pain
And the quality of mercy is not strained...

(snip)

Lyrics for Michelle Shocked - Quality of Mercy. Lyrics for Dead Man Walking Soundtrack

[amazona]

21. you have to make it easy for people to change

If they think they will be shamed by admitting they were wrong, they'll never be able to un-paint themselves out of the corner. I know many people who were formerly much more conservative who have been gradually transformed into reasonable people able to think for themselves. But if you jump all over them for their past mistakes, you put their defenses up and ruin the change of their changing. I had many family members who were GOP in past years, over time, and now not a one. What is your objective? If it's to get their vote and their good opinion, the best thing may be to let bygones be bygones.

[homelandpunk]

23. I'm talking about RW neo-con fascists...do you think I am

talking about old school William Buckley conservatives! Of course THOSE people are NOT in my sights!
Those kind of GOOD people never were gung-ho for this war anyway. Those people will not vote for * next time.
I hope I am clear WHO I am taking about.
I have to say evil neo-con fascists? Okay. "Evil neo-con fascists". Which unfortunately these days can go under the heading "RWer". It is too bad these evil (and now I am going to use that word gratuitously since I found from this thread that it makes a great pink tutu irritant) fascists can be called GOPers, or RWers, or conservatives, sans neo.
Isn't it obvious where the line in the sand is?
My objective is to stand my ground and fight them on their terms when necessary. To answer your question.

[amazona]

42. ok -- got it

There are lots of right wingers from libertarians to extremist fundamentalist fascists. Some are indeed hopeless...no argument there.

[Malikshah]

24. I agree to an extent, and here's why

To my mind, members of a democracy are more culpable for their country's actions than those living in a repressive leadership.

Those that supported the war, blindly believing the lies, refusing to think for themselves, and allowing their "leaders" to lead the country into Hell-- they can see all the light they want. They remain, however, culpable and must bear responsibility with those that led this war.

Yeah, this sounds harsh--but there is a time for accountability and giving those that supported the war a "free pass" following the mea culpa fest does nothing to stop this event from happening again.

It might sound like I'm stooping to the level of RWers myself, and to a degree I am--IF ONLY to bring them up to the level of humanity that is necessary for us all to live together in some semblance of prosperity.

I hold every single person who supported this God forsaken (literally) war accountable. If I could, I would garnish more of their wages to help pay for the cleanup.

For those who argue that "we need to be bigger than that"-- Guess what, that mindset is partly to blame for the rise and spread of Reaganism and Bushist crap. We need to learn from our mistakes and hold folks acccountable.

*finishes rant and trips off to happyland*

[cushla_machree]

33. i second that

<I> For those who argue that "we need to be bigger than that"-- Guess what, that mindset is partly to blame for the rise and spread of Reaganism and Bushist crap. We need to learn from our mistakes and hold folks acccountable. </I>

being a pushover, gets you nothing but, well pushed.

I am willing to work with those who realized their mistake, but forgiveness will take a long time, if at all. Sometimes people are just too ignorant there is nothing you can do for them.

I don' think this is stooping to 'their level' because i am not advocating punishing them, because when the country is doing good again they will be their reaping the benefits alongside me.

The American people aren't 'repressed,' we aren't under a dictatorship where free thought is punished. Those that voted for bush got what they asked for, a moron. I hear a lot of 'i didn't think it was gonna be this bad,' well did you even listen to that idiot during the debates? Reconciliation for them will come when they help vote him out of office.

as for the pro-war people, congratulations you bought the lies hook line and sinker. As far as i am concerned, there was no noble cause in invading Iraq, and no one supported the war because of an overwhelming humanitarian calling. Your either a racist asshole, or an idiot. What is happening in Iraq right now was predicted by MANY people. NO excuse for supporting this war.

'I was just following orders' is not an excuse this time, either.

[mitchum]

26. I will give "ordinary citizens" a pass, but this administration and...

their lapdogs in the media should be held accountable.

[Cheswick2.0]

29. Really? I have a lot more patience with them than the DLC maroons

including those right here on DU who supported and still support the war.

[theoceansnerves]

35. give some of them a pass

a lot of people believed the media's lies in the run up to the war. not that they couldn't have gotten on the internet to find out the truth, but still some people were blindly led by the media into thinking it was gonna be all roses and thank-yous. the war is just as much the media's responsibility as it is the administration's.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[wtmusic]

38. Exactly. No more carte blanches

for imperialistic traipsing about the world to "see" if things turn out OK.

The war is at home now.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

40. A lot of people didn't care if the WMD/9/11 "reasons" were real, as long

as:

1) We won
2) We kicked Arab ass
3) It was "cheap".

I think most (not all) knew down inside the reasons were lies, but to be an asskicking winner made them feel all good inside. They are only concerned now because it's apparent that it's no longer "cheap".

I don't give them a pass because they are guilty in allowing the whole shrubco/Iraq Invasion phenomenon to occur. But, for now, I do welcome anything that contributes to the tide that sweeps these mofos out.

But I don't harbor illusions. I think many if not MOST of those now riding the wave of shrubco/war remorse would be pretty easily swayed back into waving flags from their SUVs while riding to another Dixie Chix CD crushing monster truck derby, under the right circumstances. They LIKE having that nationlistic Nazi hard-on. Very sexy.

Sorry, but my means of expression is getting increasingly crude in the last few weeks. These events bring out the most raw emotions in all of us. I do feel the need to indulge it sometimes.

[Hippo_Tron]

43. Well I supported the war, but will NEVER trust the Bush administration...

After reading about PNAC and LIHOP, etc. I will NEVER trust those right wing thugs again.