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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:24 AM
Original message
Here are the facts of the Nick Berg story
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0514BergInIraq14...

Here are the relevant facts we should be discussing instead of the actual act of beheading:

- He is said to have been in Mosul prison by Iraqis for 13 days
- His parents filed in District Court that the US Military had illegally detained their son.
- He was interrogated several times by the FBI
- It is unclear the intentions, events and result of those interrogations
- Prisoners held in Iraqi jails are sometimes tortured, abuse or sexually humiliated.
- He was a Jew in an environment of incredible hatred and suspicion of Jews
- In the prison, he is vulnerable to some seedy characters, if there are some
- One alleged witness says he mentions he was picked up for his Israeli stamp on his passport
- It is still unclear official why he was detained for so long
- He allegedly left the hotel on April 10 leaving behind books, weights and a business-card wallet.
- His favorite shirt was blue and white checkered.
- He had short hair and looked like a GI
- He probably didn't shave for 13 days in prison.
- He didn't return to his known looks in the 4 days after his release.
- He is murdered in what appears to be a prison jump suit.
- He may not have changed his prison clothes in the 4 days after his release
- If he did change clothes before capture, the his captors gave him a well fitting orange silk prison suit to wear.
- His body was discovered hanging from a highway overpass.

What I see is:

He was probably picked up for suspicion of being some type of spy.
We already have a suggestion that standard policy is to torture people to soften them up. Then we have the scandal break and we have this guy coming back to the US who may have been directly exposed to the same things that were going on in Abu Ghraib. At the same time, support for the war is taking a massive hit day after day in the media. Is it possible that Berg never really was released and he was silenced and used to fuel the war and distract from the terror scandal?






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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Was his body found hanging from an overpass?
I thought it was found beside the road. I had not heard that.
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. heard news reports
that said it was found hanging 1-3 miles(?) from US headquarters in Baghdad
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. News reports say dumped on overpass, not hanging from
n/t
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. Anything is possible, but...
I would hate to think our government, even under this craven leadership, would not only murder randomly, but be so stupid as to try to pull off such a stunt.

on the other hand...

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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Nothing would surprise me anymore...do you trust our Gov't?
I certainly don't anymore...with all the lies to start this war and fabrications (think Jessica Lynch) it wouldn't surprise me one single bit if our gov't could do this...I never thought I'd see the day our gov't tortured people, not even Prisoners of War! (POWs meaning soldiers)

Anyway, if they can sacrifice our men and women in the military for a war based on lies, what is one more person/citizen to die for his/her country? (I'm being sarcastic here, but I'm really serious). What is to stop them? A conscience? I also am one of many many people who in all seriousness believes that this very same gov't has OBL in an undisclosed location and that he will conveniently be brought out and die in some glorious gun battle that our military engages in...most likely a few weeks before the election....

Sad days...
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
36. One should never entirely trust the government...
but this is the first time in my life that I feel I can't trust them about ANYTHING.

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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
5. kick
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
6. Here is an excerpt from one of the first newspaper accounts
of Nick Berg's murder. Keep in mind that no one knew about the video yet. There is no mention of him being beheaded, only that there were 'signs' of trauma? I'd say losing your head is pretty traumatic? I wonder how the heck they were able to figure out who he was so fast if he didn't have his head attached anymore? Then, oops there's a video, showing major trauma. No wonder there has been so little information coming out since?


http://www.boston.com/dailynews/132/world/Body_found_on...

Body found on Baghdad overpass identified as that of American

By Louis Meixler, Associated Press, 5/11/2004 11:36

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) Relatives and U.S. officials said Tuesday a body found on a Baghdad highway overpass was that of an American civilian contract worker missing since April 9 the same day insurgents attacked a U.S. convoy west of the capital.

<snip>

The body found on the overpass was identified as Nick Berg, 26, of West Chester, Pa., a self-employed civilian contractor. Berg's body, with signs of trauma, was found Saturday, the military said.

The family was informed Monday of his death.



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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
7. Here is an interesting article detailing questions re Berg
Questions surround young American shown decapitated in video

BAGHDAD (AP) - The young American decapitated on a videotape posted by an al-Qaida-linked website was never in U.S. custody despite claims to the contrary by his family, U.S. authorities said Wednesday.

snip

During a briefing Wednesday, Senor confirmed that Berg had registered with the U.S. Consulate in Baghdad but insisted he "was not a U.S. government employee, he has no affiliation with the coalition and to our knowledge he has no affiliation with any Coalition Provisional Authority contractor."

snip

However, in a Jan. 18 e-mail, Berg said his company had been announced as an approved subcontractor for a broadcast consortium awarded a contract for the U.S.-controlled Iraqi Media Network.

"Practically, this means we should be involved with quite a bit of tower work as part of the reconstruction, repair and new construction of the Iraqi Media Network," he wrote, referring to the network as "something like NPR in the U.S."

more

http://www.canada.com/news/world/story.html?id=f23279b7...


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lockdown Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Berg's email gives more detail
I guess it's been a busy time since my trip to Mosul and the great quest to locate Uncle-In-Law Moffak. The week of 4 Jan 2004 was very busy as there were several RFQ's (requests for quotations) due by the end of the week, most only announced Monday. This gave us little time to respond to some very appropriate bid requests. The other big news was the announcement Friday morning (9 Jan 2004) that the Harris/Al-Fawares/Lebanon Broadcast Company consortium had finally been awarded the new IMN contract. With out getting too technical, this is a one year (at least) contract to operate and rehabilitate the former Ministry of Information, Minister Naji's turf.

The reason this is good news is that we were announced as Harris's approved tower sub-contractor about two days before the award, and we have been working with Al-Fawares since I met one of their guys in early December.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/8651712.htm?1c

So Berg believed he had a deal with Florida based Harris Corp. after his first trip to Iraq. Given the bizarre Moussaoui link not even what Berg says can be taken at face value, but that apparent offer of work needs looking into.
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davsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. But his company doesn't exist according to the US government...
He's a subcontractor on an IMN contract and his company is not even registered with anybody???

See this thread over in LBN for info on his company's lack of any formal identity:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

GAWD, this just reeks of him being a CIA operative.

Laura
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berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
32. Has anyone found any further info on these Iraqi in-laws in Mosul?
This e-mail gives the most info I've seen--even a name and apparently the guy is married to an aunt of Berg's? How many non-Iraqi Americans have relatives in Mosul? Don't any of the investigative reporters think this is worth following up on? Do we know if he ever found Moffak?
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FormerOstrich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
40. Who was he working with???
I haven't seen or read anything that indicated he was traveling with or accompanied by anyone. However, from this post it sure sounds as if he was:

This gave us little time to respond to some very appropriate bid requests.

and

The reason this is good news is that we were announced as

It makes sense that he would have had someone helping him with his proposals etc.
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lockdown Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. In Iraq he teamed up with Aziz Taee
Berg e-mailed Aziz Taee, Philadelphia director of a group called the American-Iraqi Council, and said he wanted to do some business in Iraq. Aziz agreed to give him some space in an office he had in Baghdad; they would form a partnership, seeking communications work.
http://www.fox23news.com/news/world/story.aspx?content_...

Taee was also in Iraq, and though Berg emailed home saying he had a deal with Harris, Taee says he returned home having failed to get any subcontracts. Perhaps Berg was exaggerating to friends as he didn't want to admit he'd come up empty handed.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/breaking_news/867...

According to this link his foreman back home was Scott Hollinger. Interestingly, speaking of these drinks in the hotel with one Andrew Robert Duke after his release, Hollinger says "Nick never had a beer in his life. He was absolutely vice-free." Duke is the one saying things like Berg thought his detainment was no big deal yes? Curiouser and curioser.

Both links have more details, worth a look.
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
11. On passport stamps
During my airline career, I flew in and out of Tel Aviv several times.
Because they knew crews might also be flying into muslim countries (which I did), they didn't stamp our passports.
Maybe this was just a courtesy to crews.
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kittykitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
12. Don't forget the e-mails from U.S counsul saying he was in US custody
Text of e-mails from Beth A. Payne, a U.S. consular officer in Baghdad, to members of the family of Nicholas Berg. Copies of the e-mails were provided to The Associated Press by the Berg family.

April 1, 1:26 a.m. (To Michael Berg, Berg's father)

I have confirmed that your son, Nick, is being detained by the U.S. military in Mosul. He is safe. He was picked up approximately one week ago. We will try to obtain additional information regarding his detention and a contact person you can communicate with directly.

more at....

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-05-13-emai...
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Claim of loose wording on this one
they are saying - well US people "help" the Iraqis - so that may have caused some confusion. They would want to make the parent feel reassured by emphasizing that there were US personelle keeping him safe.

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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
13. I'm not sure we share a definition of "facts"
Edited on Sat May-15-04 11:40 AM by markses
I suppose it may be a "fact" that some event is possible, but this is hardly the definition of established fact I'm used to. Perhaps I'm being overly rigorous, but I take a fact to be something that has been definitively established to have actually happened, or to be the case. Given this definition, the following items on your list are strange, as "facts":

1) It is unclear the intentions, events and result of those interrogations - While I suppose it is a fact that the facts are unclear, I'm not sure that buys us much in terms of the facts of the case.

2) In the prison, he is vulnerable to some seedy characters, if there are some - Again, I suppose it is a fact that one is vulnerable to seedy characters in prison (or anywhere else, for that matter), but this really constitutes a possibility rather than anything that has been established. So, I could say "It's possible that I'll take up cycling, find myself a natural, and after ten years of practice come in top-ten in the Tour de France. Well, it is a "fact" that it is possible, but that hardly constitutes an established fact about my placement in the Tour de France. Other "facts" that would fall into the same category of possibility are: "He probably didn't shave for 13 days in prison"; and "He may not have changed his prison clothes in the 4 days after his release." These are both inferences from established facts (in the first case, and inference from his established appearance in January and the established change of that appearance in May; in the second case, an inference from his position in US custody and the outfit he was seen wearing at the time of his murder, both of which are established).

3) One alleged witness says he mentions he was picked up for his Israeli stamp on his passport - Again, perhaps. But we're also at three removes from the facts of the case, since the witness is only alleged. I do not fault you for including this, since it does constitute a possible fact, but we really don't have a clue about whether it's a fact that Berg was picked up for an Israeli stamp. This may6 not be your intention, but I thought I'd point it out anyway.

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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. yeah, you're right, these aren't all facts
few are and, to be honest, we don't know the veracity of ANYTHING.

I guess I just mean "facts" to mean discussion other than the details of the video - the white chair, yellow wall etc. The really important questions were being shrouded by that stuff.

When you look at the big picture, it seems like a no-brainer.
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Hey, I'm just playing along
I read your thread title as laying out the facts, so I wanted to be clear on what was a fact and what wasn't.

That's all. ;-)
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. right - we are in agreement
despite my sig, that post was not intended to be sarchastic.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
15. One report I read indicated only one book left behind in hotel
Sorry, no link, but I distinctly remember the gist of the article because it actually quoted the page from the book. I was trying to determine if the book meant anything, some kind of hidden message from Berg, so to speak, in case anything happened to him.

It was a reputable mainstream news source, but damned if I can remember which one it is that carried this article.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
18. An additional possibility
he need only have witnessed torture of other prisoners in the jail.

In Abu Ghraib, it was indicated they did this stuff in front of other prisoners to scare them.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
19. And now Mr. Berg has become junior's sacrificially lamb
:puffpiece:
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
21. Berg: The man Who Knew Too Much


CIA folks, I still think he worked for the CIA
Tell me I'm crazy
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. If he were CIA
would his parents know about it?
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. Good Question

Would the parents have to know? I thought his parents were against the war and he was for the war. It is a BIG PIECE missing from this whole picture.

Could he have been a double agent? The pieces of this puzzle just don't fit together for me.

I just have a gut level feeling about people, sometimes right and sometimes wrong. His friendly personality and helpfulness to neighbors and friends somehow don't fit with the Repub image. I should not put all of them in one basket, but he just doesn't fit.

Remember how he sits on a bus and gives his computer pass word to a total stranger? Stranger happens to be a terrorist! Doesn't sound like the repubs that I know. They don't go around sharing with folks and relaxing in bars and hanging out. hey usually follow orders. If they were told to get out of the country,they would usually go,especially if they thought that would please GWB.


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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
23. No, he had definitely been released at one point
Is it possible that Berg never really was released and he was silenced and used to fuel the war and distract from the terror scandal?


There are at least two credible reports that confirm this. One was his parents -- he had called them and the last time they heard from him was April 9.

The other was a friend he'd made at the hotel, a reporter.
See also: Reporter says Berg held in custody entire time by US authorities
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

The victim: More than work drew him to Iraq
Berg took risks around the world

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.ber...

By John Woestendiek, Scott Calvert and Pat Meisol
Sun Staff
Originally published May 13, 2004

snip

n March 24, he was detained by Iraqi police in Mosul in a late night sweep. He was released on April 6 after his parents filed alawsuit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that the U.S. military was illegally holding him.

U.S. officials say he was never in the custody of coalition forces. While in Iraqi police custody, they said, he was interviewed three times by FBI agents who were suspicious of his identity and warned that the country was too dangerous for unprotected Americans. He was offered a free flight home, but he declined, officials said.

But Hugo Infante, a Chilean reporter who got to know Berg in Baghdad, told Newsday that Berg recounted that Iraqi police had quickly handed him to U.S authorities in Mosul and that he had been held the entire time in a jail where U.S. soldiers were his guards.

Berg contacted his parents April 9, but he was not heard from again.

-- more --

------------

Actually, here's yet another:
Beheaded American was arrested as a spy 'because of his Jewish name'
By Toby Harnden in Baghdad and Marcus Warren in West Chester
(Filed: 13/05/2004)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/20...

Nicolas Berg, the American who was filmed being beheaded, had been previously arrested by Iraqi police and held on suspicion of being a spy because he had a Jewish name and an Israeli stamp in his passport, it emerged yesterday.

At the Al Fanar Tower Hotel in Baghdad, friends spoke fondly of a body-building adventurer who shrugged off danger, was passionate about his family and had been capitalising on the technology boom in Iraq after the fall of Saddam Hussein.

"He knew who he was and he was not unaware of the risks here," said Andrew Duke, 49, a Colorado businessman who drank beer with Mr Berg, 26, at the hotel the night before he was abducted, apparently on the way to Baghdad airport.

"Nick was well-educated, articulate and confident. He didn't consider the political risks any greater than the physical risks of climbing up a radio tower. Unfortunately he was what we call OBE - overtaken by events."

-- more --
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Delivered to the hands of "Murder Incorporated" ????.
In this Sy Hersh interview by Diane Rehm, he hints of Rumsfeld's contacting Murder Incorporated - about 29 minutes in...
http://www.wamu.org/ram/2004/r1040504.ram
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Kick
:kick:
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. This is what I found interesting in that story
"A ring around his neck, he added, showed that he had "clearly been tortured".The horror of the beheading reverberated throughout America yesterday, nowhere more so than in the town he called home in his last few words before he was murdered."
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. The ring around his neck?
Edited on Sat May-15-04 02:38 PM by DoYouEverWonder
shows that he had "clearly been tortured"? You would think the fact that his head was no longer attached to his body wouldn't have been a bigger hint?

Besides how does someone whose been beheaded end up with ring around the neck? I would think there wasn't much of a neck left?

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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. we can only assume he saw it in the video
i noticed what I thought looked like a line across his neck in the pictures, but I had not identified it as a ring. It was while his head was still on.
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Corgigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. That second article
Who is Andrew Duke, 49, a Colorado businessman ? How did the media find him? Do the parents know of him or heard of him? Per some guy who sat at a bar with him he was a nice guy, highly intelligent but a risk taking dumb shit. Which he might have been but you would think the media would want to know who Mr.Duke is before we read his assessment.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Something on Duke
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E27059%2...

Duke, who said he managed the Oxford Hotel for a while in the 1970s when his father owned it, and whose grandfather started the Miller Stockmen Western clothing stores, said Berg stayed about two doors away from him in the Al-Fanar Hotel.

"He's 26. He's young enough he could be my kid," Duke said.

"The last five nights before he was kidnapped, he would come in and have a beer with me in the evening," he said. "We talked about what he's going to do with his life. He wanted to develop enough of a ... grubstake here in Iraq that he could build his own family."

Berg was supposed to leave Baghdad on May 10, drive to Turkey and do some sailing, Duke said. Berg disappeared April 9.

---------

I don't see how he knows so conclusively that Berg was tortured.
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doni_georgia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. What I've learned about Berg by doing a Google News Search
Nick Berg lived in Uganda while an undergraduate at Cornell University, as part of a School for International Training Study Abroad program.
http://www.newvision.co.ug/D/8/12/360262

He helped set up the electronic equipment a the 2000 Republican National Convention
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename...

FBI questioned Berg two years ago after learning his email account had been used by an associate of Zacarias Moussaoui
http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=1867169&nav=HMO6HMaY

Pennsylvania Dept of State has no records of Bergs company
http://www.dailylocal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11650247...

He even made several trips to Third World countries at one point teaching villagers in Ghana how to make bricks
http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/Stories/0,1413,206~2209...

His father, Michael Berg, is on the Free Republic enemy list
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1092851/posts

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darkstar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Thanks doni_georgia
Really helpful to have these links in one place. I like the overall notion of the thread too, i.e. one that doesn't concentrate on video forensics.

BTW, I really appreceate those who are challenginging some of these things, too. What I'd like to see evolve are the stipulative facts of this matter, i.e. items everyone--w/in reason of course--can agree on. For instance, there seems to be some good work upthread calling the "unregestered buisiness" thing into question

Another BTW. Has anyone come across anything that speaks to Berg's ability--or lack thereof--to speak Arabic?


Here's two more links I posted on another thread:


Senor said that in Iraq, Berg had no affiliation with the U.S. government, the coalition or ''to my knowledge'' any coalition-affiliated contractor. But Senor would not specify why Iraqi police, who generally take direction from coalition authorities, had arrested him and held him.

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/133/world/Americans_den... ...



U.S. officials have said Berg was arrested on March 24 because of suspicious behavior. For one thing, he was moving about in a dangerous place without any escort. For another, a U.S. official said, Berg was Jewish but was carrying texts that seemed anti-Semitic.

http://www.nbc5.com/news/3300057/detail.html??z=dp&dpsw... ...
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. I suppose Mr. Berg went into the hotel bar in his orange jumpsuit?
the one they gave him in prison and let him leave in and that he didn't change out of for four days, so he could be captured in it on april 9/10 and then still be wearing it when he was murdered on or about May 11?

I only point this out because MAYBE it will get people off the orange jumpsuit kick and back to looking at something sensible.

Tansy Gold, yeah, right
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:30 AM
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37. Good points. I think he was CIA and was nailed by the military.
He was cleared after 911 and a lot of what he was doing doesn't make sense for a regular civilian. The CIA doesn't like Rumfeld or Bush.
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Albert Einstein Donating Member (241 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. You have a lot of company in thinking that
I just came from a gathering where the topic of discussion was just that. It seems to be what a lot of the people who have been researching the matter think.
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