For Everyone Freaking Out About THE WHITE CHAIR

[kittykitty]

As I, and many others have pointed out in numerous threads about the Berg assassination, there are millions of those white chairs all over the world. The were originally made by Rubbermaid and then knocked off in China. They are a few dollars every where. Very light weight and durable, people, have dragged them to the Himalayas, the North and South Poles, remote Amazon villages, tiny islands in the the Pacific, --they are literally everywhere on earth. The army probably brought hundreds of them to the army bases as they are lightweight and nearly indestructible.

The "white chairs" should be NOT part of the Berg mystery any longer.

[Guy_Montag]

1. Thanks for the common sense.

It's a breath of fresh air.

[displacedtexan]

155. GI Issue paint is not available to the public, though.

The military doesn't run to Wal-Mart.

Specific formula colors are approved through the chain of command, and irregular color use is forbidden.

Ask any soldier about GI Issue colors.

[Dogmudgeon]

2. What's going on?

Freaking out about THE WHITE CHAIR ... it sounds like a surrealist murder mystery.

Could you -- or anyone -- let me know what this White Chair phobia thing is about?

--bkl

[Minstrel Boy]

3. The white chair alone means nothing.

But the white chair, against a wall the same colour as the US military repainted Abu Ghraib, means more than nothing.

You can't be atomistic with evidence. Take it in context, weight it, and add it up.

[MichaelHarris]

4. I saw those

chairs at Area 51. An alien was sitting in it.

[QC]

5. THE WHITE CHAIR IS THE THRONE OF SATAN!!!

[Domitan]

10. Indeed!

And Walmart is the Corporate Babylon! EEEYAHHH!!!!

[Radical Activist]

12. Didn't Hitler sit in a white chair?

;)

[wtmusic]

34. There's your connection, right there

Man this shit runs deep ;-)

[ewagner]

6. Yes, that's probably true

What has disturbed me is the coincidence, piled on coincidence in this case.

I'm not going to jump to conclusions, but am (as I said last night) completely "wierded out" by the coincidences....

[mopaul]

7. thank you judge kitty

forgive us who speculate wildly, for we know not what we do

[Az]

8. The chair is dependent evidence

Alone it means nothing. But if in fact it is the same chair in the prison as in the execution then it has meaning. We currently have no evidence other than the fact that they are the same color and design of chair. It more evidence ties them togethe then this evidence increases in significance.

[Blue-Jay]

9. Whew! What a relief!

I was about to call the FBI on my nextdoor neighbor. He has a gold ring and white tennis shoes too. Shady character.

[Dookus]

33. Is he pudgy?

Does he have "western" mannerisms?

[Blue-Jay]

42. "Western mannerisms"?

Now that you mention it, he picks at his butt-crack almost constantly. Hmmm. The plot thickens.

[Dookus]

44. ahh...

but does he do so with his right hand or left hand?

[southlandshari]

49. LOL - then got sort of freaked out

My husband is Middle Eastern and wears a gold wedding band and white sneakers. Thank God we got rid of that crappy white patio furniture last year!

[Spazito]

11. What is interesting, is that...

I haven't seen one photo emerge that the "white chairs" were used by Iraqis in Iraq. It would be helpful if someone could post a photo where they are being used by Iraqis in their homes, etc. I did an 8 page search and couldn't find any but that may not mean much. I, for one, would be relieved if one could find such a photo so this item could be put to rest.

[Dookus]

32. alas

that's not the type of photo most people scan and put on the net.

I guess we can google "cheap Iraqi lawn furniture" but I doubt it'd result in much.

[Spazito]

60. It seems that some can, as a concrete photo has been provided...

I just wish you would post without the sarcasm as it tends to make one negate what you are posting and you lose the value of what you are saying, imo.

[Dookus]

67. sorry...

I use the same level of sarcasm when people discuss Bigfoot, astrology or how Hillary murdered Vince Foster.

The fact is, the arguments provided here are laughable.

[ForrestGump]

153. "Your search - cheap Iraqi lawn furniture - did not match any documents"

Darn.

Back to the drawing board.

[Wickerman]

13. If you look closely at the Zapruder film, way up on the Grassy

Knoll, there isn't a white plastic chair. Coincidence? Nah, they weren't invented yet, which, I think, only proves that Jack Ruby acted with, at the very least, the knowledge and perhaps the complicity of a young agent only identified as 'Bush.

[Octafish]

14. What about the Orange Prison Jumpsuit?

Is that Wal-mart issue?

[Zero Gravitas]

22. Orange jumpsuits

only exist in the US prison system. Its impossible to get orange clothing that remotely resembles the prison jumpsuits anywhere elese in the world.

[Octafish]

48. Agreed! That's why we're both in favor of seeing George Bush wear one.

Were he wearin' orange...
I'd say we hit the trifecta.

Down with the BFEE!

[WoodrowFan]

78. Untrue

do a web search for "Prison jumpsuit" or "orange jumpsuit". You'll find dozens and dozens of places that sell them around the world. Infact, if you want a color that's NOT orange at some palces you have to special orderf them.


Anybody freaked over the orange jumpsuit ot the white chair, or pudgey muslims, either

a) needs to get a life or
b) needs some perspective. or
c) both.

[keithyboy]

134. Sooooooo Al-qaeda ordered them on line for the prisoners they knew

they would have in the future?

[eridani]

166. You can get them online

http://www.nationaltextile.us/correctional_clothing
Jumpsuits, orange and traditional striped. V-neck and regular collars. Short sleeves pictured.

[Beetwasher]

15. If It Was JUST The Chair

I'd agree with you, but there are other pieces of evidence that point to the possibility that all is not as it seems.

I don't see many people drawing any conclusions. I see people noting anamolies and collecting and analyzing evidence.

The ONLY people I see fixated on the white chair are the detractors who use this one piece to dismiss any and all speculation.

[Minstrel Boy]

16. Hey Beetwasher, great point!

"The ONLY people I see fixated on the white chair are the detractors who use this one piece to dismiss any and all speculation."

[Screaming Lord Byron]

20. There's been a lot of people desperate to shoot down all theories

on this board in the last 48 hours. I don't know why they're that bothered about what others discuss.

[Beam Me Up]

25. Yes, I've noticed this too.

Often their attacks are nothing but reactionary, dismissive and derisive comments--as if anyone cares what we here at DU think or discuss.

We must really be on to something! ;)

[Blue-Jay]

28. Actually, LordByron, there's plenty that stinks about it.

Even though I joked about it earlier, there's a lot of weirdness out there about the situation. I haven't fully "bought into it" yet, but it's certainly turning out to be a mystery. The sad part is that we'll likely never know the truth surrounding Berg's death.

It never hurts to ask questions, though.

[Dookus]

38. LordByron-

I'm not "desperate" to shoot down theories - but I'm a natural skeptic. When people say it was the CIA because one of the guys had pale hands or was pudgy or wore sneakers or wore a ring, then I just naturally call "bullshit" on the argument.

The fact is, those who are so quick to blame CIA/BlackOps for this haven't presented any real evidence for that. For now, I take the video for what it claims to be: the murder of an American by Muslim fanatics. I've seen no evidence to contradict that, and furthermore, I do NOT see any motive for the US to have done this - it does NOT help the war effort. It does NOT help Bush. I do NOT believe the CIA is even interested in helping Bush.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

62. I'm also a skeptic.

I haven't been suggesting BlackOps, though, just that there is far more to this than what we're being told. The skin colour/ring business I've avoided. The real questions surround why Berg was in Iraq in the first place, and what he was up to.

[Dookus]

68. I agree

and if the arguments were focused there, I'd have no problem. I don't know why Berg was there. I don't know what happened to him before being killed. I don't even know WHO killed him - but I've seen no compelling argument that indicates it was somebody other than muslim fanatics.

[Eloriel]

121. At least 2 motives

1. Attempt to take the prison abuse scandal off the front burner (esp. since approval for Bush and the war are tanking)

2. Helps "contextualize" (and therefore minimize if not excuse) our abuse by showing how really bloodthirsty and barbaric THEY are.

[Dookus]

130. I understand your first argument

and I reject it. I don't believe it accomplishes the goal, nor do I think the powers-that-be would believe it would. I can think of a thousand "scripted" events that people willing to kill innocent civilians would choose before this one.

The second one is so vague it's hard to argue. Yes, it contextualizes things, but on the other hand, it IS in fact a method of murder used by Muslim fanatics in the past. It is not unreasonable to believe that the same method would be used again.

Again, I have never asserted that Al Qaeda or al-Zaqarwi is behind this. I have never asserted that there's nothing questionable about Berg's experience prior to being murdered.

I merely assert that "anomalies" people keep pointing out about the videotape are not compelling arguments.

[keithyboy]

136. They came out in numbers since last night. Desparate to explain away

any suggestion of suspician about the Berg beheading. Well, these are no doubt the same people who were screaming about a stain on a dark blue dress a few years ago.

[rkc3]

18. What's amazing...

is how quickly the CIA confirmed, beyond reasonable doubt, the voice in the tape is that of al-Zarqawi (sp?).

Why is it every time a tape from OBL shows up, there is no conclusive evidence that it's him? That's pretty disturbing to me.

[Beetwasher]

21. But They Didn't

Actually, the day before CNN was reporting that the voice WASN'T Zarqawi, then they changed their story the next day and reported the voice WAS him according to the CIA.

He's also reported to be missing a leg, but the guy purported to be him does not appear to be missing a leg. :shrug:

[dweller]

well...maybe he just

borrowed one from a white chair!

any 3 legged white chairs in the pics?

hmmm
dp

[bearfartinthewoods]

137. have you never heard of prosthetic limbs?

why in the world would you find it unusual for a man with a missing leg and access to funding, to replace the leg?

[Dookus]

30. except the other pieces of evidence aren't really evidence

pudgy iraqis? Pale skin? sneakers? all easily debunked.

Prison jumpsuit? It really doesn't look like a prison jumpsuit to me... it's shinier and has wider arms - more like a robe.

The quality of the "evidence" being used here is on the same level as the evidence that shows Hillary killed Vince Foster.

[Beetwasher]

53. Taken Independently

Each piece can be debunked. But taken together, it's not so easy to just dismiss out of hand that there's more going on than meets the eye.

If that doesn't look like a prison jumpsuit to you, sorry but you're blind. It IS a prison jump suit. There's not much doubt about that. Any "shinyness" it has in the Berg pic is a remnant of the lighting and digitilization of the pic.

Personally I'm not drawing any conclusion, merely examining the evidence and anomolies in totality. The only thing I'm willing to say at this point is that there seems to be more going on than meets the eye and this is not so cut and dry as some would like us to believe.

[Dookus]

59. I understand, Beetwasher

but the fact is, the same argument is used to demonstrate that Hillary killed Foster or that Bill Clinton is a serial rapist - even though every individual issue is debunked, people believe the mere multitude of questions is incriminatory. It's sloppy thinking.

[Beetwasher]

63. No It's Not The Same

Not at all. And I won't be sidetracked w/ the Clinton strawman.

And not every individual piece of evidence is debunked. I don't see ANY one piece debunked actually, I merely see POSSIBLE alternative explanations. That's NOT debunking.

I see NO ONE saying the multitude of questions is incriminatory. I just see lot's of people asking question. I see no one concluding anything. Merely speculating and analyzing data.

[Dookus]

69. OK...

but the fact is, people have argued:

Muslims can't be pudgy
Muslims can't wear sneakers
Muslims can't wear rings
Muslims have a special way of fidgeting
Muslims can't be pale
Plastic chairs don't exist in Iraq


Every single one of those has been debunked, yet people DO claim that there are "too many unanswered questions", even though they've been answered.

[Beetwasher]

Well, I Haven't Seen Those Arguments

And I certainly haven't made them.

I think that's a gross oversimplification of some anomalies that have been noticed and I haven't seen anyone argue anything like that, especially in the absolute terms in which you frame those statements. It's easy to put words in people's mouths and make up absolute statements and attribute them to everyone who is questioning this affair. That's dishonest and sloppy in and of itself.

[Dookus]

74. I'm sorry

I don't know how you failed to see every one of those arguments made in GD over the last couple of days.

They were all promoted, and all debunked.

[Beetwasher]

77. Sorry, But That's Bullshit

I defy you to point to the posts that make those arguments in those ABSOLUTE TERMS in which you framed them.

I doubt anyone said there are NO plastic chairs Iraq. Or Iraqi's CAN'T be pudgy. That's YOUR hyperbolic dishonest absolutist framing of less absolute points that may have been made.

[Dookus]

84. *shrug*

I've seen that litany of "arguments" used in this forum to indicate that there are too many fishy problems with the story.

In fact, I just saw such a list a minute ago.

We have a DU'er who keeps insisting that muslims don't wear gold rings, or rings that appear to be gold, despite being shown photographs of many prominent muslims, including Osama bin-Laden himself wearing one. He just repeated the argument minutes ago, despite being thoroughly debunked.

I'd prefer to focus on the REAL questions raised by this situation, not the silly ones.

[Beetwasher]

87. So You Paint Everyone

with same brush because of that one poster?

Furthermore, considering you're track record now of hyperbole and invention and attribution of absolute statements to anyone questioning this affair, I don't think I'll just take your word as an accurate account of the aforementioned posters arguments. Now you've made an assertion, people made these absolute statements, why don't YOU back it up w/ evidence?

I think only the most close minded person would dismiss any and all questions about this incident. There's just far too many questions to accept the official story. Skepticism is healthy and it works both ways. There are a LOT of fishy aspects to this story and anyone who denies it has there head in the sand.

[Dookus]

88. I'm not dismissing all questions...

Just the stupid ones.

[Beetwasher]

91. Uh Huh

and you also put words in people's mouths and make up absolutist claims you say were made but that apparently can be attributed to no one in particular.

[Dookus]

94. No..

I didn't put words in people's mouths. I merely summarized their arguments, which are easily found in this very thread, as well as dozens of others.

There's no denying that people have used the following arguments to support their conclusion that the US is behind this atrocity:

fat muslims
sneakers
white plastic chairs
gold rings
yellow walls
orange jumpsuit
"western" fidgeting
"western" video format

None of those arguments stand on their own, and therefore, they don't stand as a whole. Alas, people DO argue that they're all "part" of a larger argument. But if an individual item has been shown to be false, it should be discarded. Instead, people use the mere existence of the question as an argument that "there are too many unanswered questions".

I believe there ARE in fact unanswered questions. The ones listed above are not among them.

[Beetwasher]

97. Ahh, I See You No Longer Use the Absolute Terminology

That's good progress.

No individual item has been shown to be FALSE. Not a single one because none of those items is actually an argument, but rather a POSSIBLE anomaly or evidence or an observation. Taken in totality, they form the basis of an argument (or several).

fat muslims-How was this shown to be false? No one said there are NO fat muslims, merely that most of the "terrorists" in the Berg photos had larger than avg physiques, which would be unusual, though not impossible. NOT FALSE.

sneakers- No one ever said the NEVER or DON'T wear sneakers. Merely that again, this was unusual for several reason. NOT FALSE.

white plastic chairs- No one ever said there are NO plastic chairs. It was noticed however that they seem to be prevalent in AG and Berg is sitting in one. Could be a coincidence, but certainly showing that these chairs are ubiquitious merely shows that they are ubiquitous. NOT FALSE.

gold rings- It was noted that this is apparently a muslim taboo, I haven't seen it argued that muslims NEVER wear them, just that it might be considered unusual. NOT FALSE.

yellow walls- Again, like the chair, it was observed the walls in AG match the walls in the Berg photo. They do. NOT FALSE.

orange jumpsuit- It's an orange prison jumpsuit, IMO, this is not in doubt in the least. It's a jumpsuit used by the US military for prisoners in US military jails. NOT FALSE.

"western" fidgeting- I haven't seen put quite like this, I think you made this term up. What I have seen is observation by people that the body language of these people mirror a military posture. I showed the pic to a friend of mine who was in the military and he noted this without any prompting on my part. He said "I stand like that all the time, it was ingrained in me in the military". NOT FALSE.

"western" video format- Haven't seen this at all. Not sure what you're talking about here.

Taken all together, all these observations lead to questions about official accounting of what happened and who is really behind it.

[Dookus]

99. then we just disagree

I haven't backed off anything. Any "absolutist" argument you assign to me is only in your imagination.

The existence of pudgy arabs DOES disprove the idea that the captors shown in the tape can't be arab because of their weight. The same is true of the other arguments - people here have argued all of those things. It just takes a single exception to show the argument false.

[Beetwasher]

100. Disprove??? DISPROVE???

Are you sure you want to argue like that??? It disproves an argument no one made.

I've seen no one make the claim that they CAN'T be arabs because of that. And so far you haven't backed up your assertion that anyone made any of those bullshit absloute claims.

So because you think you DISPROVED an argument no one made, every other argument can be dismissed??? Yeesh, talk about sloppy thinking. What total bullshit.

Your made up bullshit about supposed claims people have made:

Muslims can't be pudgy
Muslims can't wear sneakers
Muslims can't wear rings
Muslims have a special way of fidgeting
Muslims can't be pale
Plastic chairs don't exist in Iraq

So far, even though I've asked you several times, you have yet to back up your assertion that people have made these arguments. I'd say it's YOUR credibility that should be questioned.

[Dookus]

103. Not sure I understand

the personal animosity, but I can take it.

I have seen all those arguments used to make the case that the US is behind this. If you haven't seen them, then you're not looking.

If somebody argues that the killer must be Western because he's pudgy, and the existence of pudgy arabs is proven, then the argument fails. People HAVE used all those arguments you list. I'm sorry if you're having difficulty finding them. They're all over the place.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

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[Dookus]

109. again...

I see no reason to be so hostile.

You don't want to discuss this - you want to insult me.

[Beetwasher]

111. I'm Not Hostile. I'm Calling You on Your Bullshit

Hostile would be much different.

It's not my fault you're being dishonest and can't back up your assertions. If you can't take my bluntness you don't belong on the internet.

[Dookus]

115. Well I will give your advice

on where I belong all the consideration it deserves.

Calling me "full of shit" is a hostile personal attack. I have made my points to the best of my ability, without attacking you personally. I'm sorry you feel the need to do so.

[Beetwasher]

117. No, You Have Not

made your points to the best of your ability.

You made assertions that people made very specifc absolute arguments. You have yet to back it up w/ a single concrete example. Therefore, I call you full of shit. If that offends your sensibilities, too bad. Welcome to the internet.

[Dookus]

122. I was welcomed to the internet a long time ago

thank you very much.

You seem to be a little too overwrought to discuss this calmly.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

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[Dookus]

131. Sorry

I'm not being dishonest, my shit-capacity is no greater than yours.

Your hostility is not making your argument any stronger.

People have argued that all the things I mentioned are evidence the killers aren't Muslims. That is undeniable, despite what you say.

I argue that those arguments are weak. I'm sorry my saying so makes you so angry, but the fact remains I have made my point. If somebody argues that a white plastic chair is evidence that the killers are Americans, and then it is shown (as it was in this thread)that white plastic chairs exist in Iraq absent Americans, then the argument is debunked.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

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[Beetwasher]

149. Try Again

Your changing what you've said and backing off the absolutes again, though you keep making stuff up.

"People have argued that all the things I mentioned are evidence the killers aren't Muslims. That is undeniable, despite what you say."

People have argued that these things might indicate they aren't muslim, that's true, but that's not what YOU have been saying they've been arguing. You've said they've been arguing that "They CAN'T be Arabs because they're pudgy". If you don't see the difference, that's your lack of intellectual depth and it's dishonest.

"If somebody argues that a white plastic chair is evidence that the killers are Americans,"

See, here you go again. No one argued that. You just made that up. People have argued that the white chair that Berg is in is identical to the white chairs in the prison and might indicate that the Berg pics were taken in the prison or some similar gov't building or institution. See the difference? If you don't then again you're being dishonest.

" and then it is shown (as it was in this thread)that white plastic chairs exist in Iraq absent Americans, then the argument is debunked."

No, it doesn't debunk anything because you just made up the argument you think your debunking.

[Sterling]

160. He wants to cherry pick and avoid the matter in general

This creep is just getting his jollys being an ass. He is not discussing anything in good faith. Your time is too valuble to waste on people like this.

[redqueen]

106. You did back off

You went from characterizing the opinions of suspicious persons as:

"Muslims can't be pudgy" and "Muslims can't wear sneakers"

to

"fat muslims" and "sneakers"

You dropped the absolutist language. I don't know for sure if you added it to begin with, or if someone actually made such silly assertions outright, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that it seems that you're ascribing that kind of absolute thinking to everyone who's the least bit suspicious about the incident.

[Dookus]

113. then you misunderstand my point

There can be no denying that people have used all those arguments in favor of their position that Muslim terrorists were not responsible for Berg's murder.

To deny that is ridiculous - GD has been full of such arguments for days. I simply argue that such arguments are silly and have been debunked.

That doesn't take away from the fact that there ARE legitimate questions.

I have never said Al Qaeda is responsible. I have never said al-Zarqawri is responsible. I have never said we know the story of what happened to Berg prior to being murdered.

I simply argue that many of the "points" made here recently are silly.

[Beetwasher]

116. Yes, There IS Denying that People Have Use THOSE Arguments

Those arguments being the absolutist bullshit ones that you posted. No one has made those bullshit abslutist claims. You claim they have and are apparently unable to post evidence of a single person who says:

"The killer MUST be a westerner because he's pudgy"

It's YOUR claim that someone made that argument. It's YOUR claim they are all over the place. Back it up or don't be surprised if people think your full of shit.

[QC]

118. You can see two of those "arguments" being raised

in the header of this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1600191&mesg_id=1600191

[Beetwasher]

120. Nope

That's not the argument at all that's posted there.

Where does it say the killers MUST be westerners because they are pudgy or that Arabs CAN'T where gold rings? Only if you mischaracterize what's posted there.

[redqueen]

126. I think, after reading this thread

that all elementary schools should include a basic course in logic!

:)

[Beetwasher]

129. Indeed!

I don't this guy knows what the word absolute means.

[Sterling]

161. Yes I agree but I think some people are just playing stupid?

It's hard to believe people could be so naive. These peoples kids must walk all over them.

[Dookus]

119. Again...

it's possible to discuss this without hostile attacks.

Did you not see any of the threads in the past few days arguing that the pudginess, stance, demeanor, skin color, jewelry,footwear and furniture seen in the videotape indicate that the killers are not Arabs?

My point is that each of those has been debunked, and the fact that there are 1 or 3 or 20 debunked arguments does NOT make the argument stronger.

[Beetwasher]

127. Indication is not the same as MUST OR CAN'T

Do you know what an absolute is? I don't think you do.

They have NOT been debunked, it has only been shown that there are other possibilities to explain the observations, it doesn't mean the observations still can't be relevant.

You fail to grasp many fundamental logical concepts.

[redqueen]

125. You seem to be choosing your words recklessly, then

When you put thinks like "Muslims can't" in front of the comment, you're saying that someone here has made the absolute assertion that that statement is true. AFAIK no one has. I haven't seen it. I've seen people say that most Muslims aren't fat, but that's patently ridiculous, since one of the top guys I've seen on TV is quite heavyset.

But I hope you can see the disconnect between saying 'someone said it was unlikely that they were muslims because they're overweight' and someone saying 'they can't be muslims because muslims can't be fat'. One is an observation of something plausible even if unlikely, the other is a firm declaration of something easily disproven.

It's fine to say you think they're silly. I agree with you at least on the 'pudgy' part. It's another thing to say they've been debunked.

[Guy_Montag]

132. I agree with you Dookus

there have been a lot of specious arguments floating about.

That's not to say this tape is what it purports to be, but if we are going to pick holes in it, make them valid ones.

[stickdog]

157. IMHO, there has also been a lot of specious

agreeing around here lately.

Ah, well, strength in numbers if not arguments ...

[texastoast]

102. Thank you

Not proven true. And definitely not proven false. It's important to keep an open, skeptical mind. Emphasis on the open.

[Dookus]

114. hrmm..

if somebody argues that the murderer could not be a muslim fundamentalist because he's wearing a gold-colored ring, and then it is shown that muslim fundamentalists DO in fact wear gold-colored rings, then the argument is proven false.

[Eloriel]

139. Do you understand that the SOURCE of that "gold ring" agrument

was not Western at all?

It is the headline attached to an ABC story in this online site:

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=9529&TagID=2

I don't believe the argument is proven false AT ALL. It's merely been shown not to be absolute, as in 100% of Muslims around the world practice that restriction.

[Dookus]

148. In the last two days I have posted pictures of

various people wearing gold jewelry, including: Osama bin-Laden, ibn-Saud, King Fahd, Moammar Qaddaffi, Ayatollah Khatami, Ayatolla Khamenei, the Sultan of Brunei and many others.

I was told that a fundamentalist Muslim would NEVER wear gold, or even another metal that appears to be gold. That has been proven false.

[stickdog]

158. In the last two days, you have decided the posting pictures of any

Muslim males wearing any kind of rings somehow proves that it's normal for strict fundamentalist Muslim males to wear gold rings.

The exercise has proved nothing but your complete ignorance of and insensitivity to another culture.

[texastoast]

144. Well, I guess . . .

If you are speaking in broad-brush generalities. The ring, the shoes, whatever. Let's put it in socratic logic.

The man wore a gold ring.
Some fundamentalist Muslims wear gold rings.
Therefore, what?

Would you say 90% of Muslim fundamentalists wear gold rings? 50%? 30%? As the percentage goes down, so does the likelihood of the man being a Muslim fundamentalist. It doesn't point a definite finger at them, nor does it exonerate them.

On the other hand, how many CIA agents wear gold rings? Possibly none in a venture such as this. A ring could be an identification point. Is the CIA that stupid? Don't know yet.

The point to this entire discussion is that there are many things, especially when taken as a whole body of evidence, that smack of the need for further, skeptical, open-minded examination.

I really, really don't want it to be Americans who did this terrible thing. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The jury is just not yet in.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Eloriel]

124. Not at all debunked

Merely countered. "Debunking" implies PROOF. I've seen no PROOF that debunks those questions, just people loudly proclaiming they're not big deals.

[CWebster]

17. The white chair in context of all the other

confirming evidence.


Not as a singular and isolated observation.

[quinnox]

19. I don't know about that, look at all the other "coincidences"

The chair, the floors, the walls, the ceilings. The fact that it was in a room, all this points to a conclusion that it was black ops.

Now, the only thing that remains unclear is if the video itself is fake and what U.S. government agency is involved, because obviously no "terrorists" actually exist in the world.

[Beetwasher]

23. I Wouldn't Necessarily Come to that Conclusion

I would conclude that there is more to this than meets the eye and all is not as it necessarily seems or as some would want us to believe, unquestioningly.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

24. I don't see what the problem is with being suspicious of what we're shown.

We are talking about Al Queda after all.

[Guy_Montag]

26. The problem is all this tinfoiling makes this place look

like a bunch of crazies.

There are things that are a bit dodgy about the video, but yellow paint, orange suits and, for crying out loud, white chairs that are widely available to everyone the world over are not them!

[Spazito]

29. Please post a photo that they were in use by Iraqis in Iraq...

I have searched photos of Iraq and of the Iraqi people in their homes and have been unable to find one but possibly you could do so. It would help immensely to put this question to rest, I hope you will agree.

[kittykitty]

46. Try this...

I'm sorry, I don't know how to post a picture into the DU site. It's about 9/10s of the way down the page. Uday's restaurant. Here's the link.

[Spazito]

58. Thank you!!!

This photo shows, without question, that the chairs are available to Iraqis and used in their everyday life. I hope the issue of the chairs will now be put to rest. Again, thank you.

[Cronus Protagonist]

That's a different chair

Still, it's a cheap plastic chair, but not the same kind at all.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Sterling]

162. Yes you are right, the chair(s) being discussed are exactly the same.

exatly the same model.

[kittykitty]

54. How about this?

[Cronus Protagonist]

141. Again, not the same kind

I agree the chair is a common one, I have at least 8 of them myself, but your pics are doing the opposite - you're showing that the chair in the video is perhaps not as common in Iraq as some people claim.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[CWebster]

31. Just like a bunch of crazies complaining that the election

was stolen?

Let's just get past this and move on.

[Desertrose]

41. and we are here...why? for others or to learn the truth?

"The problem is all this tinfoiling makes this place look like a bunch of crazies."

You know what...if we can get to the bottom of this and find out what exactly the truth may be...do you think I give a rats a** how it looks to some stupid freeper who is only looking to find fault in the first place??

Seems to me this is a lot bigger than how some nimrod perceives us.

:shrug:

Peace
DR

[StayOutTheBushes]

64. Yes, It is BIG. Those pictures above aren't the murder chair

either. The Bushists have been caught in their little game and are sending out their agents to try and start a coverup.

[Dookus]

71. and that is exactly

the conclusion that people have arrived at ahead of time and are trying to squeeze the "evidence" to prove it.

The problem is none of the evidence proves any such thing.

[dpibel]

51. Thanks for putting out the fire!!

Oh. Wait!

Guy Montag started fires and burned books.

My bad.

[stickdog]

75. People who unquestioningly believe whatever Bush is selling are nuts.

1) Fat, white fidgety terra'ists wearing tennis shoes, the leader of which:

a) is wearing the sort of large gold ring that is expressly forbidden in fundy Islamic communities, and

b) starts cutting the head, but is replaced by someone wearing a white head covering when it's time to show off the head.

2) Out of synch soundtrack and jumping time signatures on the video production.

3) A supposedly live beheading without any visibly spurting blood.

4) For the first time in recorded history, Arab terra'ists post a video of an atrocious murder on a website -- right in the middle of Bush Admin's most damaging national scandal -- a scandal driven completely by its own disgusting pictoral and video imagery.

5) Berg had been held in US custody (in the Abu Ghraib prison?) for two weeks without charge or access to phones or legal help just days before he was last heard from. And the US now denies this, despite the family's insistence and overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

6) Berg just happened to have an FBI file because he somehow befriended the guy the US government calls 9/11's 20th hijacker.

7) Berg was an American Jew traveling alone in Iraq without a job. He reported that he was taking lots of picture around the suburb of Abu Ghraib.

8) Yellow paint, orange suits and, for crying out loud, white chairs.

Did I miss anything, crazy tinfolers?

[Dookus]

80. It might make sense

if you assume going in that the video is US propaganda. But there's no evidence of that.

almost every argument you present has been debunked.

Nobody is saying the film is unedited. Nobody is saying the official US line is true. Nobody is saying nothing is fishy here. But we ARE saying that the rings, the sneakers, the body weight, the skin color, orange jumpsuit, the chair, the wall color, et. al. are NOT evidence that the CIA is behind this.

[stickdog]

83. Not one thing I listed has been debunked.

How can you "debunk" undeniable obsevations of publicly available information?

[Dookus]

86. It's been debunked

if you pay attention, but you ignore every piece of evidence that contradicts your pre-drawn conclusion.

Muslim men, including Osama bin-laden himself, wear gold or gold-like rings. There's an example.

You have repeatedly claimed that is untrue, but your view has been shown to be false. I showed you OBL wearing such a ring - you say it's not him. I showed you King Abdullah, the Sultan of Brunei, King Fahd, King ibn-Saud and others wearing such jewelry. You claim they're not "real" Muslims.

That's willful ignorance.

[redqueen]

112. It hasn't been 'debunked'

To be 'debunked', it would have to be *proven* to be false. All that's been done is that some people have offered alternate plausible explanations. That's not the same thing as 'debunking'.

Sloppy thinking everywhere these days!

[stickdog]

133. You are the one who is being willfully ignorant about the nature of

fundamentalist Islamic law.

1) Secular Arabs are not fundamentalist Arabs. Showing a picture of King Faud wearing gold is about as shocking as showing a picture of Jon Stewart eating a cheeseburger. What we are discussing, though, is the strict fundamentalism of somebody who is willing to kill and die for a pan-Arab theocracy. A strict fundamentalist Arab wearing a gold (OR FAKE GOLD) ring is equivalent to a Hassidic Jew eating a ham & cheese on rye during Passover. The fact that secular Arabs do as they like changes nothing about this statement of FACT.

2) Please post that "picture of Osama" again so we can all laugh at it.

[Dookus]

140. saying "so we can laugh at it"

doesn't make a point.

It was a screen shot of OBL taken from al Jazeera



Here's another in which he wears a ring:



and another:




and here is Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim



Another of al-Hakim



And another of al-Hakim:

http://www.heute.t-online.de/ZDFheute/img/4/0,1369,2159684,00.jpg

And Ayatollah Khamenei



and another of Khamenei





Now laugh.

[StayOutTheBushes]

147. That wall in the first picture looks familiar.

Something weird is going on.

[stickdog]

151. LOL

The ring is silver.



The ring is silver.



You can't tell, but I'm guessing silver.



The rings are silver.



The ring is silver.

http://www.heute.t-online.de/ZDFheute/img/4/0,1369,2159684,00.jpg

Obviously all silver.



Can't tell if it's gold or silver.



It looks gold. It could be a photo hue artifact or it could be because, as we all know, this guy is moderate Islamist.

Why are you wasting bandwith with this crap?

[Dookus]

152. wasting bandwidth?

LOL... I proved you wrong. That's a very valuable use of bandwidth.

And the rings are not all silver. They appear gold-colored. You said that a devout Muslim would never wear such a thing.

[Sterling]

163. I think you have been debunked

Your act jumped the shark some time ago.

[SonofMass]

82. The ring looks platinum to me. CIA issue.

.

[stickdog]

85. The CIA says it's gold.

Why would they lie?

[Dookus]

90. Why pretend this hasn't been answered?

I explained to you many times yesterday:

The word gold means two things: the element Au, OR... being gold in color.

The CIA referring to a gold ring seen on a grainy video does NOT mean that the actual metal is element 79. It refers to a metal having the appearance of gold.

Scientifically, there is NO possible way to determine the chemical make-up of a small object seen on a videotape. The CIA has NOT said definitively that the ring is made of gold.

[stickdog]

123. Because that's a load of crap. The WHOLE REASON that fundy Muslim

males don't wear gold rings is because The Prophet hated wearing gold rings and liked silver rings better. Acting like The Prophet makes one holier, so The Prophet's personal likes and dislikes are taken VERY SERIOUSLY in the sort of Islamic theocracies that al Qaeda types espouse.

Therefore, a devout fundamentalist Islamic man wearing a FAKE GOLD ring is nearly as bad as an Islamic man wearing a real gold ring.

But, of course, I've explained this before as well. To silence.

[SonofMass]

145. What if it's a fake gold ring made out of silver?

.

[stickdog]

150. That's why they have Ayatollahs.

;-)

[Sterling]

164. Congrats this is the most pointless, useless thread all day.

Not one post juxtaposes the chairs in question. God these debunkers are a bunch of sloppy, lazy timewasters I have run across since the last time I spoke with a RWer.

[Zero Gravitas]

39. Questions

No one is arguing with being suspicious or asking questions... the problem with the "tinfoil hatters" is that they don't draw conclusions from evidence, they make the conclusion first and then try and twist the evidence to fit it.

I don't care if people think Bush ordered the CIA to whack this guy to make a distraction from the prison abuse scandal. What I have a problem with is the ludicrous assertions that because he sat on a white chair or that he was wearing a mock (or even a real) prison jumpsuit that some how "proves" the assertion. It indicates a complete lack of critical thinking skills. Its the jumping t pre-determined conclusions based little or no evidence that people have a problem with not necessarily the conclusions themselves.

[Dookus]

47. thank you WorstPresidentEver

well said.

[Beetwasher]

56. I Don't See Many (if any) saying there's PROOF of Anything

I see lots of questions, speculation and analysis.

The only people talking about proof of CIA conspiracies are the detractors.

[Cronus Protagonist]

142. True dat

And my ignore list is still getting fatter :)

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[stickdog]

61. Bullshit. It is you, the US goverment and the US media who make

conclusions first and work backwards from them.

For example, please tell me, who is responsible for 9/11?

Who is responsible for Berg's execution?

Upon what evidence are you, the US goverment and the US media basing these conclusions?

[kittykitty]

27. No, speculate away--the ONLY evidence I am disputing is

The white chair! Everything else is fair game.

[Spazito]

35. It would be helpful if someone, anyone could post a photo...

of Iraqis using the "white chairs" in their everyday life. I have searched and have found none. If you could post one, it would be very helpful in putting this one question to rest.

[southlandshari]

43. Iraqi chair photos

found here:

http://www.iraqandahardplace.org/article.php?id=1

[Dookus]

45. thank you southlandshari...

well done.

[southlandshari]

52. My pleasure!

It was a lot more fun tracking that down than any of the other tasks I should have been doing the past hour or so!

[Spazito]

55. Thank you for this...

I don't see any "white chairs" as such but there does seem to be white plastic in the photos, especially the photo with the table that looks like a white plastic patio table to me, which would lead me to believe that the chairs could have been in use in Iraqi homes.

[kittykitty]

66. Spazito, did you see my post #54? A picture that says it all, I think.

[Spazito]

70. Yes, I did, and thank you!

It certainly puts that question to rest in my mind! The more we can sort out questions and put to rest, via factual data, others, the more helpful it will be, imo.

[kittykitty]

92. I agree

Thanks.

I also have a problem with the orange suit. Prison jumpsuits don't have long or longish sleeves. They are poly/cotton and have short sleeves.
Berg seems to be wearing a nylon or silky looking fabric jogging suit.
But I'll leave that for another time.

[Spazito]

96. I agree with you,,,,

it certainly isn't on the top of my question list although I will continue to watch the debate about it with interest. The unanswered questions that are uppermost in my mind are related to the conflicting, ever changing statements by various bush admin spokespersons.

[eridani]

165. Not longsleeved in the seated picture

Fabric ends slightly below the elbow, and width of sleeve looks way oversized.

[southlandshari]

73. look at the second picture on the page

[Spazito]

79. Yes, I did and it looks to me like those small side tables, plastic,...

that I have on my own deck. Your pictures and those of kittykitty have totally addressed the white chair question in my mind. They were used in everyday Iraqi lives. Thanks for the work you did, much appreciated. I don't wear tinfoil well and you have removed at least one layer for me, lol.

[Cronus Protagonist]

143. There are no chairs at your link that match the ones in the prison

Not even one of them matches. And you think this refutes the arguments you claim others have made?

I hope you're not a lawyer.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[southlandshari]

154. I think you have me confused

with someone else. I'm pretty new here and haven't made any claims about arguments made by others. I was just trying to be helpful. Of the four or five pictures at the link I posted there is a white, plastic table and chairs clearly visible in at least two photos. I didn't claim they were an identical match, just an illustration of the existance of this type of chair in Iraq somewhere other than in a military compound or prison.

If I've said or done anything to offend I apologize.

[soup]

57. the same?

Without comment because I need to go pick up my grandchildren from school:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/iraq/dispatches/meyer/stories/052503cciraqmeyer2.5e086195.html

[kerry-is-my-prez]

36. I've never seen that style of chair - and I live in Florida.

The chairs that you see all over the place are the ones with the swooped arms.

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[No2W2004]

40. see, I told you...

That chair is behind it all

IT IS POSITIVELY

EEEEEVVIIIILLLL!

[stickdog]

50. And for everybody freaking out on the beheading of Michael Berg,

several innocent Iraqi citizens are killed by US occupation forces every day.

My point is that ALL propaganda must be viewed in context. And in the context of the current RW orgy of bloodlust over Berg's beheading, the context of Berg awaiting his execution in the same Walmart white chairs that furnish our Iraqi prisons is vitally important.

[SonofMass]

72. Proof that the chair is American. The cia didn't even use

a safe chair they had been recalled.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml03/03051.html

[Dookus]

76. Your assumption is that

the video is US propaganda.

I've seen no real evidence of that.

[stickdog]

81. Its origin is certainly in question. The fact that it is being used as

BushCo propaganda is not.

[Dookus]

89. Yes it is

this video does NOT help Bush in any way. I believe they are unhappy that it came to light. It draws MORE attention to the mess in Iraq, which is the last thing they need.

I have said repeatedly that there are serious, unanswered questions about this whole situation. That does NOT mean that the immediate conclusion is that the US was behind this, and the quality of the arguments used to make that point are abysmal.

[Beetwasher]

93. I Don't See Many People Coming to That Conclusion

Where are they all?

I think I've seen one post in which the poster said they came to that conclusion.

[Dookus]

95. Really?

You don't see many people coming to the conclusion that the US is behind this?

We must be reading different forums.

[Beetwasher]

98. No I Don't

It should be easy to find them then shouldn't it? I'm sure there are some, but as I said, I've only seen one post that firmly came to this conclusion. I've seen many others (the majority in fact) that consider it as a possibility (including me) and it is a possibility, among others.

[stickdog]

110. Well, you've certainly told off that strawman!

And Bush's DISAPPROVAL rating had just reached an ALL-TIME RECORD HIGH just BEFORE this video was released.

Why don't you turn on any talk radio station and listen a little? Then come back and tell me all about this video hurting Bush. Anything that takes sick and twisted S&M "Coalition" torture pictures out of US minds for a second helps Bush.

[Tactical Progressive]

65. Oh, come on. Everyone has an orange jumpsuit.

I've got three of them in my closet. I can't even fit into two of them anymore, but like most people I just keep my old ones in case I slim down again. They go with almost any affair - weddings, christenings, dinner dates, you name it. And who doesn't pack an orange jumpsuit when they travel?

[tishaLA]

101. The problem is the name of the colour really

I don't call my jumpsuit "orange" because it makes it sound terribly common. I prefer to call it "pumpkin" and I wore it only in the autumn. But the days of pumpkin jumpsuits as a fashion choice has ended now, sadly; I think emerald overtook pumpkin a couple years ago. If you show up at a wedding wearing one now, it's like wearing a leisure suit.

[Tactical Progressive]

156. Bright Orange Jumpsuits

just never go out of fashion. They are a wardrobe staple.

[TrogL]

104. They are standard issue on B-52 bombers

Apparently there's no place for a backup crewman to sit, so they take along one of those one plastic chairs for him to sit on.

And no, they're not indestructible. Try leaving one on your balcony over a Canadian winter then sit on it the following spring.

*crack* *crash* *ow*

[Spazito]

108. LOL too true!

*

[SonofMass]

146. I saw them perform Private Idaho while sitting in

the plastic chairs once.

[stinkeefresh]

107. ^^^ new conspiracy theory twist ^^^

I posted this on a less busy thread, but I thought I should post it here where the action is.

I've been looking at the "evidence" that this was CIA or something, and it really is compelling (to me). What I couldn't figure was why would the U.S. claim that Berg wasn't in U.S. custody when they should have known that the family would immediately prove that to be false.

Now I'm thinking that they WANT us to scream "conspiracy"! A), it's pragmatically unprovable at this time, so it does us little good. B) it undermines our POV in the eyes of many Americans. If it could become nationally known that "the liberals" are accusing the U.S. of the murder of Berg, that will play right into Bush's hands.

I think the video is custom made to horrify the sheeple AND make us DUers cry "conspiracy". Both effects help them.

We should keep discussing this among ourselves and the occasional open-minded fence sitter. But getting a megaphone would be a bad idea.