Gov. Ehrlich opens his mouth: "multiculturalism is...crap....bunk"

[donsu]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A18954-2004May11?language=printer

Gov. Robert L. Ehrlich Jr.'s remarks last week dismissing multiculturalism as "crap" and "bunk" echoed across the state yesterday, as Democratic and Latino leaders demanded an apology and Ehrlich defended his comments as "utter common sense."

-snip-

"The words stand on their own," Ehrlich (R) replied. "It's a common culture, and the last message we want to send out is for people to separate themselves. We should celebrate the common American culture, the common American values and the common American language. I think that's common sense."

Ehrlich's original remarks about multiculturalism came in defense of a political ally, state Comptroller William Donald Schaefer (D). Schaefer had been criticized for his announcement a day earlier that he would no longer eat at McDonald's because of an uncomfortable encounter with a cashier struggling with English.

On the radio, Ehrlich said his views are "very similar to the comptroller's" and added, "I reject the idea of multiculturalism. Once you get into this multicultural crap, this bunk, you run into a problem. With respect to this culture, English is the language."
-snip-
----------------------------------

racism

[Redleg]

1. Yeah- celebrate the common American values- as long as they're white...

values. What a fucking prick. This is pretty typical.

[arcane1]

3. do they ever say what those "values" even are??

I hear the v-word 1,864 times a day from the right.. but I never hear them mention any actual, specific value...

the dumb-asses

[Redleg]

6. They never seem to get more specific than saying "family values."

We have to guess what they mean.

[arcane1]

8. kind of like "southern heritage"

they never elaborate on that either, except that their heritage somehow involves flying the Confederate flag.. beyond that, I'm not sure even they know what they mean

F-ing buzz-words :grr:

(I'm from the south, so no flames please!) :)

[libhill]

85. It`s really pretty simple-

Republicans and "conservatives" place no value on anything but money and power - that all, that`s it, there ain`t no frikkin` moe . After 3 years of these assholes running our country, and the world, into the damned ground, it should be as plain as the nose on your face. They kill at whim to cover their asses and achieve their psychotic ass goals,they place no value on human life or dignity whatsoever- so why should they give a crap about cultural diversity? All the talk about "American values" is bullshit rhetoric for the public, which seems hellbound to worship and cover for these stupid fuks no matter how many atrocities they commit. They make me fucking sick.

[aquart]

2. Racism is conveniently separated people.

Wouldn't want the brown ones to talk like the white ones, would we? Let's keep them speaking Spanish, knowing that it is nothing for a pre-pubescent child to pick up another language. Let's keep those lower grades segregated until it's too late to speak without an accent so they WILL NEVER ENJOY WHAT THE WHITE GUYS HAVE.

THAT'S racism.

If they talk the same, they can fool people into thinking they are the same and get good jobs, the few that are left, and then....THEN...they'll be able to move into the GOOD neighborhoods and play with the GOOD children.......and marry them...

Please. Multiculturalism? Segregation with a pretty face.

[bryant69]

7. Hmmmmm

Depends on what you mean by Multiculturalism, I suppose. I mean having tacos once in a while is kind of nice, and that's multicultural isn't it?

I don't know whether this is supposed to be humorous or not, but I'd like to think a person of any ethnicity can be a success while still appreciating and enjoying his or her ethnic heritage. I also think that admiting that we have always been a multicultural society would be a nice idea.

Bryant
check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Sandpiper]

11. One of the unique things about America

Has always been the idea that anybody could be an American, regardless of where you came from.

Unfortunately, this idea has always been opposed in practice by xenophobic WASPs, who have always equated being American with being WASPy.

[trogdor]

34. And driving Fords (or Chevys)

And drinking Budweiser
and eating at McDonalds
and watching the NFL (on Fox)
and going to church on Sunday (nice, mainstream Christian churches only)

yawn.

[DrWeird]

17. That's right. The Spanish language is racist.

:eyes:

[Delano]

23. Excellent point.

I'm all for mainstreaming/assimilation in the classroom, and keeping the native culture alive in the home and the neighborhood.

100 years ago, taking their classes in English didn't make Italian immigrants' kids any less Italian. It probably did help them become more successful members of society, however.

[July]

65. But many of them lost the Italian.

I don't know about any other groups, but many of the Italian-Americans I know who had at least one Italian-speaking parent are sorry they were pushed so much toward English that they didn't even use Italian much at home. They look at it now as a lost opportunity to speak another language fluently.

[Delano]

94. But the culture remains a part of their identity, fluent or not

At least it usually does...

[July]

62. Those in favor of multiculturalism don't share your assumptions.

You think it's racism if there are classes in languages other than English. The people who want those classes have a different view of them, and I would be very surprised if any of them think they're volunteering for second-class citizenship.

English is the dominant language here, but not the only one or even the first one. I live in one of those GOOD neighborhoods, and all kinds of languages are spoken here. It's one of the things I like about this area. And it's definitely not segregated.

[Delano]

95. I'm 100% in favor of teaching other languages.

I'm only against teaching kids general curriculum in 2 languages, rather than using immersion to get them fluent in English.

I think teaching other languages is great for all.

I speak three.

[noiretextatique]

102. the white ones usually don't want to live by, work with

or talk to the colored ones. that's called "white flight," and "normal" instead of segregation.

[Momgonepostal]

4. What do they want from immigrants?

quote "Ehrlich's original remarks about multiculturalism came in defense of a political ally, state Comptroller William Donald Schaefer (D). Schaefer had been criticized for his announcement a day earlier that he would no longer eat at McDonald's because of an uncomfortable encounter with a cashier struggling with English."

Hello? Should we only accept immigrants who speak perfect, unaccented English now? How are immigrants supposed to learn English if they don't get out there in the world and use it? At least the person was working....conservatives gripe about immigrants who aren't working too.

I bet Herr Ehrlich and Schaefer's immigrant ancestors had some intense accents, too.

[arcane1]

9. these same kind of people who travel to other countries

and complain that nobody speaks English there...

:crazy:

"arrogant" is going there and expecting them to accomodate YOU

sigh...

[Delano]

18. To a degree I agree with him...

And I lived in Japan, and became fluent in the language. I NEVER expected the Japanese to speak English to me, just as I should not be EXPECTED to speak Spanish for the sake of some Spanish-speaking immigrant. (I do speak some spanish, however - grew up in El Paso)

There are folks that expect foreigners to speak English, but that's a whole other issue (stupidity).

[arcane1]

50. indeed

though at the same time, most Americans don't speak Cherokee, so it all balances out :silly:

I haven't run into any case of being expected to speeak Spanish, though... lots of immigrants in Cali, and signs all over the place in assorted languages, but not speaking any of them has never been a hindrance for me

[Delano]

96. Go spend some time in Miami

You are EXPECTED to speak Spanish. Don't even bother looking for a job there if you don't.

[arcane1]

98. not really sure what that means..

but for balance, I work for a global corporation, based ultimately in Tokyo, and our offices in Japan, China, India, S America, etc, have to have English language skills, too

[Delano]

127. For dealing with international trade, yes.

You don't need to speak English to get a job at 7-11 in Tokyo.

You DO have to speak Spanish to have a comparable job in Miami (or almost any job for that matter)

[arcane1]

128. news to me

I was unaware... so you can't be a cashier if you are not bilingual? It's a job requirement?

[Delano]

132. Like I said, go spend some time in Miami. You'll see.

Everyone insists that you speak spanish to them (then of course, when you do, they correct or ridicule your spanish!) 60% or more of Miamians speak Spanish as their firrst language, and probably 85% speak spanish fluently.

It's not all bad - it's a very colorful town if you like humidity, but I do think that it's unfair tto "regular anglo-americans" to be FORCED to learn a foreign language to live in their own country. Especially those older folks who are left over from the period befor the Cuban boatlifts, before all the English-speaking poulation fled to other parts of the state.

Like I said before aboutt multicculturalism - it's a mixed bag. I found many things annoying about Miami, yet I can't imagine it any other way, and I don't know if I would change it. It is unique among American cities.

[noiretextatique]

101. you are an exception...many americans

travelling abroad do not bother to learn the language, and expect that everyone should speak english. when i went to italy in college, with a group of 25 students, only about 5 of us had bothered to actually study italian before we went. we were attending american university, and the classes were taught in english (except italian, of course) but we didn't live our entire lives at the university. fortunately for some of the students, many italians could speak some english.
yes, many americans DO expect people to speak english when they travel...and it's not just stupid people. lazy, perhaps.

[Delano]

151. Whatever they are, I frown on that.

I would at least make an attempt to speak the language, but I'd be grateful when the natives speak English to me.

It would be nice if all of the people who MOVE here would make the same effort. (After all, visiting a country and LIVING there are 2 different things. It's not all that unreasonable to expect employees at a hotel in Paris that caters mostly to Americans to speak some English, whereas expecting the same from the bakery down the street is arrogant.)

[TrogL]

141. Most Japanese speak English

It's a bit of a fad over there.

[Nikia]

149. Really?

My limited experience says they do not, well not well anyway. For some reason Japanese visitors seem drawn to me in public and ask me for help be it taking their picture, directions, or a number of things and have a hard time getting their point across especially if I ask a further question.
Then there was the Japanese company which opened in my hometown with the Japanese owners and supervisers they put out ads for Japanese translators when they discovered that they could not communicate in English well enough to explain to the employees what they were suppose to be doing.
This is my limited experience. Do Japanese really speak English well and as frequently as they do in Netherlands or Belguim?

[Delano]

150. Most Japanese do NOT speak English.

Unless you consider.

"Haro, my name is Miyuki, Let's Engrish!" to be English. Having taught English in Japan for 5 years at all age and skill levels I can tell you that the vast majority cannot understand even a few simple sentences spoken normally, since they are taught to speak English using the native katakana syllibary. So despite the fact that millions of Japanese have taken Japanese lessons, Japan is second-lowest in the WORLD in English proficiency after N. Korea. Go to a KcDonald's in Japan, and try to understand what they are saying when they ask "Ah you teikuauto? Iito-in? (Are you take out? Eat in? - ie Will that be for here or to go."

There may be a bit more English fluency in Tokyo, but just a bit.

[Sandpiper]

5. "Multiculturalism is crap" is code for

"You darkies don't act white enough for my tastes."

[noiretextatique]

104. also can be translated as: "i'm an ignorant,supremacist jerk" eom

[SaveElmer]

10. Typical Republican Oafish way of putting things...but

On one level he has a point. I live in an area that has a rather large immigrant population, which I have no problem with. I think immigration is a good thing. But for alot of the more recent immigrants, it seems like they want to just recreate their home country here without the crime and povery or whatever they were escaping from. They don't speak english, and they don't want to learn. They aren't trying to assimilate at all. America has a culture...it is a culture that has grown out of the diverisity of all different kinds of people adding something. What has grown out of this is uniquely American. If people want to come here and be American, they need to commit to being an American...and that means adopting our value system, and learning and speaking English.

Children need to have intensive training in English from the beginning. It's ok if they are taught other subjects in their native language while they are learning, but there needs to be a limit. An immigrant student, particularly if they are starting young, should not be able to go through their entire school lives not learning English.

I also have no problem with certain vital services provided by the Government being communicated in Other languages. But I don't think election ballots should be printed in anything but English. If you have become an adult citizen of the U.S. you should be able to speak English.

As usual, Republican have no tact whatsoever, and Ehrich should apologize for the way he said what he did...but the point is not entirely without validity.

[Sandpiper]

14. Speaking of xenophibia

Sheesh.

[SaveElmer]

33. Hardly

It is not xenophobia to say those that wish to come here and become Americans need to adopt some basic things. One of those is to learn English.

[Sandpiper]

43. You say they need to adopt some basic things

But neglect to mention what they might be, other than learning English.

The customs that they bring with them from the native country are apparently offensive to you. So what do they need to do to act more "American?"

Wear Levis? Drink more Coca Cola? Eat more Big Macs? Listen to Brittney Spears? Start liking NASCAR?

[SaveElmer]

60. Do you even bother to read posts before you comment

As I clearly said, American culture is an amalgam of all the cultures of people who have come here during our history. Everybody has added something. What has come out of that is uniquely American. As more people arrive here, which as I said, I THINK IS A GOOD THING, more gets added. But if new immigrants wall themselves off from the rest of society, as many are doing, it will lead to a fragmentation of our society. We need them to participate.

And there are some basic things that have been part of our value system from the beginning, and people who wish to become citizens need to adopt them. One is to learn English. Another is to participate in our democratic system. Learn and adopt the values laid down in our founding documents (something the Cabal in the WH should learn to do). It is America's ability to assimilate new cultures and adopt the best of them that has kept us strong and that needs to continue.

[July]

70. What do you think about areas where Spanish has long been spoken?

There are parts of the U.S. where Spanish has been spoken since before English was spoken here. What about areas where another language is spoken by almost everyone? In some other countries there are large populations -- sometimes 2, 3, or even more -- speaking different languages, and they find a way to participate in their culture and society.

I think it would be hard to live here without ever learning any English, but what do you think of these situations, where English would not predominate?

[SaveElmer]

77. There's a difference

There are countries in this world where more than one language is spoken. But those countries are likely culturally similar, and they have a long history of living that way. They weren't just slapped together randomly. It's like saying ok, we are going to now combine Brazil and China and tell them to act like a stable society...it wouldn't work. America has a long tradition of English as the predominant language. It is part of our culture now, and everyone should be fluent in it. It doesn't mean people shouldn't speak other languages, but in public situations, especially in school, they should interact in English.

[Sandpiper]

81. Be careful when speaking without knowledge

It's like saying ok, we are going to now combine Brazil and China and tell them to act like a stable society

I lived in Brazil and it has the largest population of Japanese immigrants outside of Japan, along with a large Arabic population, numerous residents from the Spanish speaking countries of South America, and various European immigrants.

Unlike the United States though, you don't have a large contingent of vocal xenophobes, clamoring that these immigrants aren't sufficiently Brazilian. Brazil is comfortable with the fact that it's a multicultural society.

[SaveElmer]

84. As am I that America is

Did those Japanese immigrants learn Portuguese. Do they participate in Brazilian society ?

I'd also appreciate it if you would stop refering to me as a xenophobe. To be xenophobic is to have an irrational fear of foreigners and strangers, which I believe I have made clear I do not.

[July]

86. Well, as I said in part of my post, Spanish has been here longer than

English in some areas. Remember Columbus? The Southwest includes chunks that were formerly Mexico, and Spanish has always been spoken there, even before anyone English-speaking turned up. I'm not talking about "slapping together" disparate cultures, although I think that's what the U.S. has been doing for a long time. I'm talking about parts of the U.S. where English is not the dominant language and where, in some cases, it's not the original language, either. I didn't really address the "public situations" question, but what's wrong with speaking Spanish in a store or bank or any other public place if Spanish is the language of the community, particularly if it has always been spoken there?

As I said before, it's useful to know English in this society. But I think there are places where it is less necessary than it is in other places. That doesn't bother me at all, especially if Spanish was there first, or if the community is dominated by speakers of another language.

[Book Lover]

124. In The Federalist papers

this question was discussed, and the idea that America should be English-only was rejected as undemocratic. As a long-time roleplayer, I have thought that looking at English as a version of Common would be the best way of thinking, but then again, we would need a jump in availability of ESL classes & teachers by a few orders of magnitude for that to happen. Anyone willing to write to their congressperson?

[Sandpiper]

78. Or areas that are culturally French

Like parts of Louisiana

[Sandpiper]

73. Wall themselves off

You mean like little Italy in NY, or the various Chinatowns in major cities of the US? Someone should tell these people that they're fragmenting society.
:eyes:

America is a cultural melting pot and always will be. Becoming American doesn't mean losing all sense of where you came from. Besides, total assimilation rarely happens with first generation immigrants. You can take the Irishman out of Ireland, but you can't take Ireland out of the Irishman.

Learn and adopt the values laid down in our founding documents

And I can't help but laugh over this one. There is very little consensus among native born Americans as to what these values are.

[SaveElmer]

80. I have to leave now...but check back

Later and I will respond. Thanks for the discussion !!!

[noiretextatique]

115. not too mention: those "values" didn't apply to everyone

when they were written...that's something i never forget.
n fact, those "values" don't apply to everyone now...just ask some voters in florida.

[playahata1]

145. Add to what you just said:

the fact that enslaved black people were considered only 3/5 of a person under the original Constitution, and that even with the passage of the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments after the Civil War, African Americans still had to wait another century before they could truly enjoy full citizenship. So much for "learn(ing) and adopt(ing) the values laid down in our founding documents" -- particularly the phrase "all men are created equal."

[noiretextatique]

156. one of those original values is hyprocrisy

most of those lofty words did not apply to most of the people alive at the time they were written.

[ParanoidPat]

53. LOL! America has a 'culture'? America is the 'Yogurt' of cultures......

.....you're never quite sure if it's gone bad! :evilgrin:

[SaveElmer]

61. Thats why we have to keep working at it

It's like a marriage, if you neglect it, it will go down the sh*thole!!!

[TrogL]

143. American Culture

• implants
  
• Brittney Spears
  
• country and western music
  

:scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared:

[Az]

12. He's right. Everyone should comform to the native American culture

It makes sense. Everyone coming to these shores should expect to comform to the existing culture. And seeing as how they were here first we better start studying up on them as we are going to have to follow them.

[Delano]

15. Fair enough by me.

Of course, there was no common language. Most everyone, including Indians speak English, so we should use English, but then adopt the Indian ideas about sharing, communal property and respect for nature. It would be a big improvement. I ain't sitting in no sweat lodge, though...

[Delano]

13. "multiculturalism" - the PC orthodoxy IS bunk.

The notion that cultural diversity is an absolute good is a stretch. It may be a net good, but it is certainly a mixed bag at best.

It HAS been used to portray western culture as evil, and other cultures as good.

I have no problem with pointing out European genocide of native peoples, etc. but there WERE Europeans at the time who objected to no avail, because the genocide was AGAINST western values.

To me "multiculturalism" as it is presently taught is equally as wrong as the patriarchal, misogynistic, "white-man's burden" type of thought it replaced, because it is just as ideological and divorced from objectivity.

Our wealth of cultures HAVE contibuted much to this country, and have spawned many social ills as well.

Bilingual education and various groups preserving their ethnic identities ARE an enriching experience, and at the same time, they help to isolate from the larger society, and hinder the ability of voters to understand current events in the primary language of this country (english)

Nothing about multiculturalism is as simple as portrayed.

For the record, my wife is Japanese, our kids are fully bilingual, go to Japanese school on Saturdays, and are WELL-VERSED in Japanese culture. I do not, however believe that the government should be obligated to teach my kids in Japanese. I pay for that myself. Why is it that we give bilingual classes for Spanish-speakers simply because they are here in the greatest numbers? Such classes aren't available to speakers of other languages - that makes it discriminatory as well as deleterious to students' English abilities.

I know that this is a hot-button issue here, and that a lot of folks have already drunk the multiculturalism/bilingual ed orthodoxy Kool-aid, so I'm not going to spar with the inevitable outraged replies that will follow this post.

I just hope it provokes some thought.

[Sandpiper]

21. I have to disagree on this point

I have no problem with pointing out European genocide of native peoples, etc. but there WERE Europeans at the time who objected to no avail, because the genocide was AGAINST western values.

These acts were completely consistent with western values. White man's burden has always been a western value, and still is today. What do you think we're doing in Iraq?

[Delano]

26. That is a lie and a slur against a lot of good people.

"These acts were completely consistent with western values. White man's burden has always been a western value, and still is today. What do you think we're doing in Iraq?"

It has been consistent with the actions of expansionist/colonialist European nations. It is also contrary to the values those same societies preached. They always had to come up with ways to rationalize and justify their actions, which made them complete hypocrites.

For example, America is supposed to be a liberal democracy, and yet it is in no way functioning as one today.

I wouldn't slur ALL primitive peoples as cannibals, why would you slur an entire culture that was responsible for most of the world's technological & intellectual advancement that way?

[Sandpiper]

30. When did the truth become a slur

When western nations stop invading the nations of brown skinned people in order to force their way of life on them, then you can start making an argument that colonialism/imperialism are not a western value.

why would you slur an entire culture that was responsible for most of the world's technological & intellectual advancement that way?

What hubris

[Delano]

36. You are implying that most westerners believe in doing such things

They have little choice in the matter. Our governments do what they want to do.

You are doing the same thing the rightwingers do when they characterize ALL muslims as killers because the terrorist groups do what they do, and their governments have horrible human rights records.

By your logic, Islamic culture = violence, hate, genital mutilation, terrorism.

[Sandpiper]

46. Sorry to burst your bubble

But a majority of the citizens in the country approved whole heartedly of the invasion of Iraq.

[Delano]

97. Again - with a phony cover story

They had to sell/brainwash the people on WMD. Many people believed Saddam had nukes. Why do you insist on re-hashing this?

[Sandpiper]

106. Because you insist that colonialism

Isn't not a value of western society, notwithstanding that this position ignores both history and the present.

[Delano]

126. Values and actions are 2 different things.

People can be made to do things that are contrary to their values with enough conditioning. You are too consumed with hatred of white europeans in general to listen.

[Sandpiper]

129. And you are in too deep a state of denial

To face reality.

[coda]

152. Excuuuse me, Great Nations coming through!

Randy Newman. :-)

[noiretextatique]

155. correct...it explains why bush, inc invaded iraq...among other things

it's a part of the hostility abotu mutliculturalism. if you assume that you are the one who calls all the shots (and if you assume that is the natural order of things) of course you will be miffed at the mere suggestion that you may not always be right. even more so if your assumptions about your superiority and privilege and imperative are challenged.

[Az]

22. Problems

Multiculturalism is enabled by our Post Modern approach to society. It postulates that no one cutlure can dominate. It allows for all to participate in the discussion.

The problem of course is when a particular culture refuses to play by these rules. When one culture insists that its is the only true culture the dialog breaks down. Further more the Post Modern system is illequipped to deal with these sorts as their natural tendency is to allow cultural values to be expressed.

[noiretextatique]

107. cultural diversity, like biological diversity just IS

there is no need (except in the minds of some) to label it as "good" or "bad"...it is just the way it is.
the problem in america regarding this issue: lingering vestiges of white supremacy, ergo the false belief in the supremacy of white american culture (and white european culture)...and the equally false belief that other cultures are not as valuable or desirable.

[Delano]

130. Yes, that's true.

That's why my comments are strictly directed at the well-intentioned but often off-target multicultural orthodoxy promoted in schools.

Diversity in and of itself is not bad or good, it just is.

[noiretextatique]

133. i believe it's an antidote to the years of the reverse

i.e., white people, their culture, history and p.o.v. being the only culture, history, and p.o.v. that was considered right, important or worthy of discussion or study. i could refine that to wealthy, white men, for accuracy.
personally...i think it's time people start just accepting reality, but i don't think we're evolved (as a culture) enough to do that.

[Toucano]

16. Ignorant Fuck!

There has never existed a common culture on this continent.

Period!

And what about William Donald Schaefer?

You feel the need to "announce" that you had a tough time at McDonald's? Who the fuck cares where you eat?!

[Delano]

19. A person in a customer service job should have a decent English ability.

Without it, he or she is UNQUALIFIED.

Your foul language doesn't make you any more right, by the way.

[Sandpiper]

24. You sidestepped the point nicely

The point was that there has never been a homogenous, common culture in this country.

Cries agains the "evils of multiculturalism" are generally the cries of xenophobic whites who don't think them 'furerners are actin 'Murican enough.

[Delano]

27. Because she blew off the whole original problem

One we have all experienced - customer service people who are incapable of doing the job.

I love immigrants, and I love accents - I think they are beautiful. But when a server can't understand the simplest questions, they are unqualified. It's a shame that so many companies are putting unqualified folks in customer service jobs. (and paying them crap wages for it)

[Sandpiper]

37. I'm sure a smart person like yourself

Knows that English is not the official language of the United States.

[Baltimoreboy]

28. There has been a common language

and that is enough to instill enough of a common culture.

People should be allowed to keep their culture, but we should all be able to speak English to work jobs that serve the public.

If anyone follows "South Park," they did a fairly entertaining and thought provoking episode on it.

[DrWeird]

31. No there hasn't.

The founding fathers actually wanted some other language than English to be the official language.

[Baltimoreboy]

35. Since the Mexican War

English has been the common language from the East Coast to the West Coast. No, it has not been legislated, but immigrants took pains to learn it. Now, for the first time, we have immigrants NOT bothering to learn the language and still expecting similar treatment.

We are an immigrant nation and thank goodness for it. But we should all be able to speak English.

[DrWeird]

42. Where are you getting your information?

Do you really believe that just now "for the first time" immigrants are not bothering to learn English?

"But we should all be able to speak English."

I agree. And we should all be able to speak Spanish and French too. And if you expect other people to learn a second language you should be speaking one yourself.

[Baltimoreboy]

47. From good ol' fashioned books

Yes, it takes time for people to learn English. Until they do, they shouldn't be in jobs that require it.

Actually, living in America, I expect people to learn the common language here. If I move to Mexico, I should learn Spanish. If I move to France, I should learn French. (That said, we should teach language to kids in grade school.)

[Sandpiper]

51. As I've said previously

I'm sure you probably know that English is not the official language of the United States, and that the United States has no official language.

As a matter of fact, the constitution doesn't even contemplate the idea of the United States having an official language.

French, on the other hand, is the official language of France. Consequently, they have a bit more standing to require their citizens to learn French.

[Baltimoreboy]

55. It doesn't need to be an official language

But it IS the language and it is fair and reasonable to expect people to learn it to work with the public. And that was what started all of this.

[Sandpiper]

59. But it DOES need to be the official language

If we're going to demand that public schools give English only education.

[Baltimoreboy]

67. Nowhere do I advocate that

I advocate it be the language of commerce and that people learn it for having jobs that deal with the public.

Now, a question in return. How many languages do we have to accommodate in the U.S. with public documents, etc.? Just Spanish? French? Mandarin? Welsh? Klingon? Elvish?

[SheepyMcSheepster]

75. shouldn't the employer decide who he/she wants to hire?

who is at fault here? the business that employs people who can not perform their duty or the employees? if you don't like the employees, don't frequent the business, this is after all capitalism isn't it?

[Baltimoreboy]

82. Both are at fault, as is government

Try telling a prospective employee you won't hire them because they can't speak English. Then let me know what happens.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

88. seriously, do you believe any person can go get a job anywhere?

even if they don't even speak the language of the people they need to communicate with. i find that hard to believe.

[Baltimoreboy]

89. Have you used low-end retail recently?

Or ridden in a cab?

I have and in both cases I have encounterred people who couldn't speak English.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

90. but are you arguing that the business had to hire them?

[noiretextatique]

109. they hire the people who apply for low-paying jobs eom

[Baltimoreboy]

111. I am arguing

That they will be sued or have government action taken against them if they DON'T hire them.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

153. can you show me an example?

can you show me an example of someone suing a company for not hiring them for a customer service position because they don't speak the language of most clientel?

thanks.

[noiretextatique]

157. of course he can't...it's a myth that employers are so fearful of lawsuits

that they don't practice discriminatio in hiring, pay, promotion, and so on. thanks for the laugh :hi:

[TrogL]

144. Hardly the first time

I've read books from a century ago complaining about areas of large cities where immigrants never learned English.

[DrWeird]

25. Do you speak Indian?

Well then you're unqualified.

[Delano]

29. Are we in India?

There is no common language of all Indians.

The vast majority of people (including Indians) topay speak English. For the sake of efficiency (not cultural superiority), everyone who participates in the society should have a basic proficiency in English. Even most immigrants agree with this idea.

[DrWeird]

32. Are we in England?

If we want to be effecient then let's all learn Esperanto. That way everybody has to learn a new language, instead of just the immigrants.

[Baltimoreboy]

39. That would be anything but efficient

Since most Americans speak English, it would be more efficient for those who don't to learn.

Like it or not, English is the language of international business and trade as well.

[DrWeird]

45. Ah, majority rule.

I see how you are.

[Baltimoreboy]

49. That's how democracy works

Majority rule. At least in theory.

It shouldn't be tyranny of the majority, but it isn't tyranny to expect immigrants to learn a common language either.

[DrWeird]

52. Democracy isn't telling people what they can and can't say.

Including which language they say it in. If you can't understand what somebody else is saying that's your own problem.

[Baltimoreboy]

57. Then they shouldn't expect to be hired either

Nor should they be able to sue if they don't.

If your job requires public contact, just as you have to dress or act appropriately, you should have to speak appropriately.

And no, if I can't understand what they are saying, it's their employer's problem because I won't come back.

[Delano]

99. It's not saying they can't say what they like

Speak what you want at home, in your community. Don't expect to get a cutomer service job at Six Flags or Marie Callender's if you don't speak English.

Has ANYONE, EVER advocated a BAN on speaking foreign languages? Not in the US, as far as I know.

[Sandpiper]

54. Majority rule based on law

Is how this nation works.

Please show me the law that names English as the official language of the United States, and I'll be right on board with you.

Tyranny of the majority is when the majority tries to impose its will on the minority in the absence of law.

[Baltimoreboy]

58. Do you wish English to be the official language?

Because that is the direction your argument takes you.

[Sandpiper]

64. I already speak it

So it really doesn't concern me one way or the other.

If you want to interpret my argument as favoring that, ok.

The point of my argument is that you're trying to make a legalistic argument about democracy, rule of the majority, and English being the majority language.

The problem with that argument is that it gets demolished by the fact that there is no law designating English as our official language, and consequently, the majority has no legal standing to demand that immigrants to this country to learn, or be educated in English.

[Baltimoreboy]

68. I don't have to drive

But I need to be able to read to get a license. Suppose I can't read English, should the state put the driver's test in Spanish? Urdu? Esperanto? Gaelic?

[Sandpiper]

83. Entirely up to the state

As they set their own requirements for licensing procedures.

In a state like California, where non hispanic whites are less than half of the population, it only makes sense to have it multiple languages.

[Baltimoreboy]

91. There's a HUGE problem with that

That license is good for you to drive here in Maryland as well. So, if you can't read the street signs, can't follow the road directions, etc., then you shouldn't get a license.

Again, the more of the arguments made here, the more it seems like opponents are making the best case FOR English as an official language.

[Sandpiper]

108. Yeah, what a problem

Traffic signs must be very different in Maryland than they are in California...no, wait a second, they're the same everywhere you go.

If you know what a Stop sign, Yield Sign, No U turn sign, One way sign mean in one state, you know what they mean in another.

[Baltimoreboy]

112. Some signs have other words on them

Exits have street names. Street signs have names on them. Buildings have names and words on them. Businesses also have signs that people try to read while driving.

All of that adds up to a problem if you can't either read or read English.

[DrWeird]

123. now you're just being utterly ridiculous.

Do you really believe that a person has to be fluent in order to understand street signs?

You've never been outside of the United States, have you?

[Baltimoreboy]

140. Do you drive?

Because in urban areas there are lots of signs -- not just the ones that DMV includes in there books. And someone not familiar with an area has to rely on more than just cursory English skills to find their way around.

And yes I have been out of the U.S.

[TrogL]

146. International symbols

All stop signs are red octagons.

All yield signs are yellow triangles.

(on edit, expanding on story a bit)

I first ran into International symbols at Expo '67 in Montreal. At the time they drove me batty because I couldn't figure out some of the symbols. Unisex dress was the fashion at the time.

I eventually figured out that the algorythm 'the algorythm "men wear kilts and women don't"' doesn't work' worked.

[Baltimoreboy]

148. Exit signs don't have international symbols

They have words. So do street signs, business signs and a host of others.

[Delano]

93. So having EVERYONE spend their time learning a new language

rather than having the million or so yearly immigrants do so is a more efficient use of people's time?

You must be joking.

But you've made my point pretty well. Thank you.

[Sandpiper]

105. Self Delete

[Toucano]

56. Of course it doesn't.

I couldn't possibly be more than 100% right, which I am.

McDonald's has a fucking PICTURE menu so you can point to the item you want. How about cutting a trainee a break? Or did fuck wad Mr. McWasp hatch from his egg as a comptroller?

Mr. McWasp was undoubtedly one of those uptight picky idiots who tie up the bloody line ordering their no-pickles-light-salt-extra mustard-type-shit while working men and women have to rush through their 30 minute lunch break. Plenty of native speakers in the service sector get confused by that complicated picky-ass shit.

America has always been multicultural. We've always navigated the challenges that creates and enjoyed the benefits it produces.

And we've always dealt with the assholes who try to pin the people against each other for their own political and economic gain.

Also, you might want to learn to use the "ignore" function if your desire to limit people's expression is so strong. When I think "foul language" appropriately expresses how I feel, I'll use it. I won't let you or any fucking fascist tell me I fucking can't.

[Delano]

100. Your hostility

is Amazing. I don't endorse everything this idiot republican says. He peobably IS a racist, but as for the PC multicultural orthodoxy, I can't defend it. It helps NOBODY, except maybe the right wing, who have a vested interest in keeping immigrants and the underclass handicapped in English, thus uninformed about what is going on politically and culturally in this country, and less liable to band together with OTHER disparate ethnic groups to form unions, political movements, etc. "multiculturalism" as it is now practiced is a form of balkanization within our borders, and I'll never support it.

America has always been multicultural. We've always navigated the challenges that creates and enjoyed the benefits it produces.

And we've always dealt with the assholes who try to pin the people against each other for their own political and economic gain.

Also, you might want to learn to use the "ignore" function if your desire to limit people's expression is so strong. When I think "foul language" appropriately expresses how I feel, I'll use it. I won't let you or any fucking fascist tell me I fucking can't.

We were able to deal with the assholes because we were able to organize with the vehicle of a common language. And I don't need an ignore button to ignore your profanity. If you don't know how to carry on a polite conversation, we needn't do so anymore.

[noiretextatique]

110. what "PC multicultural orthodoxy" are you referring to?

and is "white flight" a part of it?

[Delano]

125. White flight is paranoia.

I live in San Francisco, in a very multiethnic neighborhood.

As for multicultural orthodoxy, I'm talking about the little buzzwords and catchphrases that are taught to students as truisms today, without encouraging any kind of critical thought. "Our diversity is our strength", etc. Diversity is a mixed bag. I'm very happy to live in an ethnically and culturally diverse nation, but I'm not blind to the fact that diversity comes with a whole host of conflicts as well. Even here in SF, where multiculturalism is almost religion in the public schools, even the elementary kids self-segregate in the lunchrooms and the playgrounds. Culture is a touchstone. It provides a comfort zone and a common point of reference for different peoples. Multiculturalism seems to ignore all of that in favor of nonsensical catchphrases.

[noiretextatique]

131. i'm not sure that's true

catch phrases aside.
i live in oakland, but i am from the south...southern california, that is. white flight is a form self-segregation...i've exeperienced it.
we even have examples of it in the bay area. i don't see anything particularly wrong with self-segregation, personally but i'm always curious as to why white americans are often left out of these discussions, as if they aren't really participants and contributors to the issues involved. and of course...that simply isn't the case.
i would add...that when segregation was the law of the land, that was also a form of self-segregation, and it seems to me, that is legacy is also a part of the white flight phenomenon.
of course, some folks had to segregate...not only did their lives depend on it, they LITERALLY could not purchase homes or rent apartments in certain neighborhoods. that discrimination hasn't completely disappeared either.
i think it will take a lot more time for this culture to evolve enough for ALL of the old attitudes to die, and for trust to be developed.
the bay area is great in this regard, but even here...it's far from perfect.

[Delano]

134. I think if self-segregation were to disappear completely...

Our country would be far less interesting.

Imagine 300 years from now, a future where all races and cultures are completely blended. No more Chinatowns or Little Italys, just a boring medium beige-colored blend, where you go to eat spaghetti-filled eggroll-burritos? Really sad.

Not that I'm advocating "separate but equal", but at least "distinct but equal"...

[noiretextatique]

136. and no more "plesantville's"

:7 total assimilation would make for a very dull and boring country, that's for sure.

[Delano]

137. Yeah, like "Pleasantville" ever existed.

The few times I've ever hung out in all-white communities, I've never felt the least bit "pleasant".

That's the thing. While I'm basically against "multiculturalism" when it becomes a rigid set of tenets, speech codes and forced reloccations (forced busing as is done here in SF), I much prefer living in a diverse community than an all-white one.

[noiretextatique]

159. how do you think san franciso became integrated?

hint: it wasn't "voluntary."

[Delano]

160. Are you saying that people were forced to relocate? I think not.

There are still ethnic clusters all around, and they are distinct enough to have character, without being strictly segregated. San Francisco is one of very few cities that still uses mandatory busing to try to create some sort of ethnic "balance" among its schools. Thankfully Senator Feinstein is trying to end the misguided policy, which is a huge burden on people of all races. I'm all for a kid in a black neighborhood whose school may be failing having the choice of going to a "better" school, but arbitrarily forcing kids to go all over town to achieve some sort of unattainable ethnic "balance" is counterproductive, and is the biggest burden on poor families, who are already overstretched working multiple jobs.

Like I said, I love living in a diverse, multicultural cit, but I would hate it if every district in the city had the exact same ethnic makeup, and I imagine most others would too. There's only so much that the government can or should do to desegregate. There needs to be an element of choice. Some folks feel more comfortable in mixed neighborhoods, others prefer more homogeneous enclaves. I prefer the former, but have no beef with the latter.

[noiretextatique]

162. are you that naive? gentrification forces people to relocate all the time

the fillmore and western addition are just two examples. and while san francisco has always been a fairly progressive city, there was the same jim crow system in place there as there was all over the united states. in employment, for example, the sf fire and police department had to be sued like most other ones. the auto dealers on van ness had to be picketed before they would sell to and hire people of color...and so on.
busing...well that's what some people love to focus on.

[Delano]

164. I focus on busing because I have kids in school.

I was lucky & got my kids into the school I wanted, but know many people who have been forced to bus or drive their kids across town to meet some arbitrary goal. It's not cool.

And gentrification is a market problem, not usually a government-forced one. Hell, the whole city of SF (and the whole bay area) is being priced out of reach of working people of any color now, and that's a bigger problem than somebody's perception that there is an ethnic imbalance in one neighborhood or another.

And as for the examples you cite, you're talking about discrimination, not pc multi-culti dogma. Any business that discriminates should be protested or sued. That's the one place where I don't accept "birds of a feather" thinking. Everybody deserves a fair shot at the job they want, and not be pigeonholed into one thing or another due to their race.

[noiretextatique]

168. what is pc multi-culti dogma...again?

and how does it relate to "business as usual" discrimination, including "market forces?" do "market forces" also explain the racial wage gap? and...how does multiculturalism impact your life, to the extent that you keep repeating how much you dislike it, but as yet, the only examples you can provide are "slogans?" besides the busing issue. and...isn't the busing issue also related to "business as usual" discrimination? what i mean by that is: if all PUBLIC schools were "good," then there would not have been a need for busing in the first place (it started because of segregation, btw).
having been bused, i never cared for it myself. and i thought some of the ideas behind it were racist (e.g., the belief the people of color are magically enriched by integration).
but...even that cure is not nearly as bad as the disease.
the rw has capitalized on resentment about busing, multi-culturalism, etc...but they have not solutions, except to destroy public education, and create some new Educational Management Organization millionaires.
perhaps the solution is less drastic...why not just fix the damn problems...with schools, with busing, etc? this is what really bugs me about this issue and others like it:
what is the opposite of pc multi-culti dogma? is it what it was before
that?

[Delano]

169. What is "multiculturalism" other than nonsensical feel-good slogans?

It certainly has achieved little or no tangible progress for any of the groups whose interests it is supposed to promote.

And why are so many so defensive of a nebulous idea when some repuke attacks it?

I was going to continue with a piece on Kwanzaa, but why bother with the ensuing flame war...

[noiretextatique]

170. why does it bother YOU...and this...governor so much?

and the guy he was supposedly supporting, if it's so non-sensical? why do YOU have more posts in this thread than anyone, if it's such a nebulous idea? and haven't YOU been the most vocal advocate of whatever the opposite of this nebulous idea is in this thread? why is that...if it's so unimportant to YOU?
the success of this nebulous idea is evidenced by the hostility of those who rail against it, yet can't seem to define it.
as to kwanzaa...i think i will live without your opinion on the subject.

[Delano]

171. If the best defense you have for pc multi-culti is...

...that it bothers some repuke governor and Delano, then you're the one on shaky ground.

Could you explain WHY teaching an ideology of multiculturalism is better than simply teaching tolerance and consideration of others?

The only reason I mentioned Kwanzaa was not to demean it on its own merits - it's a fine idea (even though its founder was a convicted violent felon), but to present it as an example of multiculturalism promoting one culture over others. The multicultural curriculum has pushed this holiday that was only concocted in the 1960s OVER the more traditional holidays, to the point that it has gone from near obscurity in the 80s to supposedly being a major holiday now. Is it the job of the government to say to African-Americans: "this professor made up an African-themed holiday - so now it's your holiday - CELEBRATE IT!"?

It's not as though anyone in Africa celebrates it...

[Viking12]

63. Unqualified??? Why?

Because you don't feel comfortable being served by them? Maybe they're highly qualified because the majority of their business is dealing with non-English speakers.m the employer decideas whose qualified not you.

[July]

71. But what if they have an accent and it bothers someone?

Is that fair? I'm sure you've seen people "shut down" as soon as they hear an accent, even when the person speaking uses good, grammatical English. One of the guys mentioned in the original post was bent about an accent, wasn't he?

[LeahMira]

20. If there is any justice in the world...

... that little cashier struggling with English and working a minimum wage job now will, ten years from now, be the only brain surgeon in the country with the qualifications to operate on both of their tumors... and both of them will remember her face.

[Baltimoreboy]

41. I hope she does succeed

In the meantime, she shouldn't be working a cashier job if she can't speak English. Yes, there are jobs that don't require extensive language skills or customer contact.

[DrWeird]

48. And what should they be doing?

Making your bed?

[Sandpiper]

66. Why, cleaning the houses

Of rich English speakers of course.

[Baltimoreboy]

69. Any of hundreds of jobs

That don't require understanding the language. Meanwhile, they should be learning and we should be doing everything we can to help.

[Nikia]

138. There are a number of jobs

I am aware that there may be less job oppurtunities for immigrants who do not speak English well. In the area where I live though there are a number of factories who do hire a relatively large number of Spanish speaking immigrants. Many of these positions require little communication and only with other employees. Many of these factories have at least one bilingual superviser and may hire a translator.
As for traditional low wage jobs in retail and restaurants, there are positions that do not require the employee to talk to customers. Employees working in receiving or stocking shelves do not need to speak to customers. Employees making the food at restaurants don't need to speak to customers either. The McDonald's employee with limited English could have been making sandwiches instead of waiting on customers. If they have trouble finding English speaking workers in urban areas, they should pay their employees more and put ads out advertising their rate of pay and that good English speaking skills are required for the job.
I don't think that an employer would be sued if they made speaking and reading English a requirement for the job. There are a number of people whose native language is English but are turned down for jobs because they have trouble with either reading or talking to people to the ability that the employer requires.

[TrogL]

147. One of those people just passed by

I'm working late and the cleaning crew is here.

[July]

76. Do we know how good her English was?

Could she communicate with an accent? Was she very hard to understand? Was the guy bringing an attitude with him?

What's in it for McDonald's to hire someone who can't communicate?

[DU GrovelBot]

38. ## Support Democratic Underground! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v2.0
==================
 
The time now is 3:43:56PM EDT, Thursday, May 13, 2004.
 
There are exactly...
3 days,
8 hours,
16 minutes, and
4 seconds left in our fund drive.
 
This website could not survive without your generosity. Member donations 
pay for more than 84% of the Democratic Underground budget. Don't let
GrovelBot become the next victim of the Bush economy. Bzzzt.
 
Please take a moment to donate to DU right now. Thank you for your support.
 
- An automated message from the DU GrovelBot

Click here to donate.

[silverpatronus]

40. what is 'american' culture?

america is a cultural melting pot. 'american culture' was created by pulling bits and pieces of immigrant cultures together. 'american culture' IS multiculture.

gawd...a little history perhaps? i was in DC when this guy was running for governor...why on EARTH did they vote him in?

[Baltimoreboy]

44. The last part is easy

KKT (Kathleen Kennedy Townsend) was a horrendous candidate. If O'Malley runs, we stand a much better chance.

[dpt223]

74. KKT

She basically assumed she would win and didn't really do any campaigning.

[CJCRANE]

79. If there was one culture

wouldn't they just have one star on the flag?

[jeffrey_X]

92. White culture is american culture, BUT...

American culture is not white culture.

[Baltimoreboy]

113. American culture is a vibrant mix

But American language is English.

[noiretextatique]

118. american has always been a mutli-lingual nation

sure, the majority of people speak english (and even most native speakers don't do it very well), but there have always (and always will be) other language spoken here.

[Baltimoreboy]

119. Again, no problem with other languages in addition to English

but you need to be able to speak in English to work with an English-speaking public. That actually seems a fairly reasonable requirement to me.

[noiretextatique]

120. it is...for those who speak english well

personally, i don't see what the big deal is at mcdonald's and obviously mcdonald's didn't either because they hired the person :shrug:

[Baltimoreboy]

142. Clearly there was a problem

If one of the highest elected officials in the state couldn't even figure out what the cashier was saying. Having a taste for fast food myself, I don't find this unusual at all.

[noiretextatique]

154. please...he's a twit

what does he expect at McDonald's...perfect english? we can't even expect that from the resident of the white house.
now, who's language problem is more worthy of a headline and national discussion: a cashier at mcdonald's or the "leader of the free world?"

[leesa]

72. But isn't refusing to eat at McDonalds anti-American??

After all, how 'common' can you get?

[MallRat]

87. Now I see why Sinclair Broadcasting loves him...

:eyes:

[noiretextatique]

103. he's an igoramus...and so are those who agree with him

an ignorant, pompous, ass...perfect spokeperson for moran america.

[Sandpiper]

114. There was a thread earlier today

On what topics are the best way to identify closet freepers.

Looks like we've found a new one.

Like I mentioned in an earlier thread, I lived in Brazil for a while, and Brazil is just as multicultural a society as the United States, perhaps more so.

It's amazing to see what a difference there was in the general attitude though. In Brazil, there isn't this simmering undercurrent of resentment toward immigrants.

Probably because there aren't vestiges of cultural white supremacy still lingering in their national consciousness.

[noiretextatique]

116. any topic even remotely related to race & culture

is always eye-opening :wow: excellent job in this thread, btw :thumbsup:

[bigbillhaywood]

117. Okay, here's the deal. A majority of immigrants do eventually learn to

speak English, but you can't expect first-generation immigrants to be fluent in a few months or even a couple of years. That's fucking dumb. And it's no different now than it was when Italians and Eastern Europeans were coming here at the turn of the century-- they had their own communities and spoke their own languages in them (some urban centers even had bilingual public education, and the parochial schools also had it).

The only significant difference between now and then is this. In the past, there were waves of immigration. For example, over a period of a few years a group of people from Naples would come in and settle in say, East Boston. Then for a while, the immigration would slow and the Neapolitans could partially assimilate, then the next wave would come in from say Sicily, and so on-- eventually Italian immigration ended almost entirely, and without a replenishing immigrant population from the old country, Italians became almost enitirely assimilated into American society (while retaining some vestiges of their culture, especially in urban areas).

The Hispanic and Asian immigration is different because it is consistent and constant. Although there are still waves from certain regions from time to time, it is constant enough to where the immigrant communities are replenished and total cultural assimilation does not occur. Of course, pockets within that ethnic community may assimilate (Newyoricans vs. Puerto Rican immigrants living in NY), but the ethnic group as a whole continues to be replenished with new immigrants so does not totally assimilate.

[noiretextatique]

121. i wonder how these folks feel about bush's english?

:puke: he tortures the english language, and it's his native tongue. of course they don't have the multicultural excuse to use, in his case.
what does it say about US...when we have a complete moron acting and speaking as pResident of our country? i don't know about anyone else, but i think that should be far more of an issue than whether or not a minimum wage worker can speak english...when the so-called "leader of the free world" CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH.
yet another weapon of mass distraction :eyes:

[Blue_Tires]

122. I'd expect nothing less

coming from Ehrlich...man, i hate that guy. Never would've had a chance in hell of getting elected if he didn't have that black running mate (Steele)...I've had the misfortune of meeting Ehrlich professionally on a few occasions, he has terrible breath, too.

[bigtree]

135. Ehrlich: "With respect to this culture, English is the language." ????????

"There she lies, the great Melting-Pot--Listen! Can't you hear the roaring and the bubbling?...Ah, what a stirring and a seething! Celt and Latin, Slav and Teuton, Greek and Syrian, black and yellow...Jew and Gentile....East and West, and North and South, the palm and the pine, the pole and the equator, the crescent and the cross--how the great Alchemist melts and fuses them with his purifying flame! Here shall they all unite to build the Republic of Man and the Kingdom of God." -Israel Zangwill 1908”


It's amazing to me how the inhabitants of this land we call America- a country obtained and founded through force and deception by an immigrant anglo-saxon race of misogynistic thugs- can assert their Americanism and detach themselves from the global influences that were essential, critical elements in the establishment of our nation and in the sustaining the people who settled here. The Europeans were immigrants to this land. The original inhabitants comprised a vast nation of many languages and many different cultures that existed together for centuries on this land we call America . . .

There is no reasonable argument that would justify the systematic removal of those indigenous peoples from the land that had sustained generations. There is no reasonable argument for the destruction of their culture and the forced imposition of the settler's language and ideology. In the 'indian' schools the children were forbidden to speak their own language or display any of their own culture and were severely punished for doing so. The government even went so far as to outlaw indigenous language and culture in its institutions.


ENGLISH: a language of United Kingdom


Population: 55,000,000 first language speakers in United Kingdom (1984 estimate). Population total all countries 341,000,000 first language speakers (1999 WA), 508,000,000 including second language speakers (1999 WA).

Also spoken in 104 other countries including American Samoa, Andorra, Anguilla, Antigua and Barbuda, Aruba, Australia, Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Bermuda, Botswana, British Indian Ocean Territory, British Virgin Islands, Brunei, Cameroon, Canada, Cayman Islands, Cook Islands, Denmark.

Dialects COCKNEY, SCOUSE, GEORDIE, WEST COUNTRY, EAST ANGLIA, BIRMINGHAM (BRUMMY, BRUMMIE), SOUTH WALES, EDINBURGH, BELFAST, CORNWALL, CUMBERLAND, CENTRAL CUMBERLAND, DEVONSHIRE, EAST DEVONSHIRE, DORSET, DURHAM, BOLTON LANCASHIRE, NORTH LANCASHIRE, RADCLIFFE LANCASHIRE, NORTHUMBERLAND, NORFOLK, NEWCASTLE NORTHUMBERLAND, TYNESIDE NORTHUMBERLAND, LOWLAND SCOTTISH, SOMERSET, SUSSEX, WESTMORLAND, NORTH WILTSHIRE, CRAVEN YORKSHIRE, NORTH YORKSHIRE, SHEFFIELD YORKSHIRE, WEST YORKSHIRE.

Classification Indo-European, Germanic, West, English.

How Many Languages?

Language scholars believe that prior to the arrival of Columbus, approximately 300 languages were spoken in North America; since then, the number of indigenous languages has dropped considerably. Figures on current language use vary (Crystal, 1987; Krauss, 1998; Grimes, 1997) but indicate that roughly half of these languages are now extinct.<1> Many of the remaining languages are considered moribund, or near extinction, as they have few speakers and these speakers are all elders. Some projections suggest that by the year 2050, only twenty indigenous American languages will remain (Crawford, 1999).

How Many Speakers?

The earliest broad survey of language speakers was in 1964 (Krauss, 1998); other inventories followed, including SIL International's Ethnologue. According to data provided in Ethnologue, there are over 361,978 speakers of indigenous American languages. It is difficult, however, to determine a precise census since census respondents may find language definitions confusing, may deny their language ability (because of a perceived prejudice or stigma), or may overestimate their language ability (Krauss, 1998).

How many indigineous languages are spoken in the United States?

20 Abnaki-Penobscot Maine <3> 10 Achumawi California 21 Ahtena Alaska 256 Alabama Texas 90 Aleut Alaska 812 Apache, Jicarilla New Mexico 18 Apache, Kiowa Oklahoma 10 Apache, Lipan New Mexico 1,800 Apache, Mescalero-Chiricahua New Mexico 12,693 Apache, Western Arizona 1,038 Arapaho Wyoming; Oklahoma 90 Arikara North Dakota 150 Assiniboine Montana <3> 4 Atsugewi California 1,062 Blackfoot Montana <5> 141 Caddo Oklahoma 35 Cahuilla California 5 Chehalis, Lower Washington 2 Chehalis, Upper Washington 11,905 Cherokee Oklahoma; North Carolina 5 Chetco Oregon 1,721 Cheyenne Montana 1,000 Chickasaw Oklahoma 17 Chinook Wawa Oregon 17,890 Choctaw Oklahoma 5 Clallam Washington 321 Cocopa Arizona <6> 40 Coeur D'Alene Idaho 39 Columbia-Wenatchi Washington 854 Comanche Oklahoma 1 Coos Oregon 2 Cowlitz Washington 1,070 Cree, Western Montana <5> 4,280 Crow Montana 9 Cupeno California 20,355 Dakota Nebraska; Minnesota; North Dakota; South Dakota; Montana <3> 40 Degexit'an Alaska 1 Eyak Alaska 10 Gros Ventre Montana 365 Gwich'in Alaska 138 Haida Alaska 7 Han Alaska 1,007 Havasupai-Walapai-Yavapai Arizona 1,000 Hawaiian Hawaii 100 Hidatsa North Dakota 250 Hocak/Winnebago Nebraska 12 Holikachuk Alaska 5,264 Hopi Arizona; Utah; New Mexico 8 Hupa California 3,500 Inuktitut, North Alaskan Alaska 4,000 Inuktitut, Northwest Alaska Alaska 1,301 Jemez New Mexico 1 Kalapuya Oregon 200 Kalispel-Pend Dóreille Montana 19 Kansa Oklahoma 126 Karok California 50 Kashaya California 10 Kato California 10 Kawaiisu California 4,580 Keres, Eastern New Mexico 3,390 Keres, Western New Mexico 539 Kikapoo Kansas; Oklahoma; Texas <7> 1,092 Kiowa Oklahoma 88 Klamath-Modoc Oregon 600 Koasati Louisiana; Texas 300 Koyukon Alaska 97 Kumiai California <6> 40 Kuskokwim, Upper Alaska 102 Kutenai Idaho; Montana <5> 6,000 Lakota Nebraska; Minnesota; North Dakota; South Dakota; Montana 43 Luiseno California 60 Lushootseed Washington 10 Maidu, Northwest California 10 Makah Washington 887 Malecite-Passamaquoddy Maine <5> 6 Mandan North Dakota 181 Maricopa Arizona 39 Menomini Wisconsin 800 Mesquakie Iowa; Oklahoma; Kansas; Nebraska 2,100 Micmac Boston; New York City <5> 496 Mikasuki Florida 5 Miwok, Central Sierra California 1 Miwok, Coast California 8 Miwok, Lake California 10 Miwok, Northern Sierra California 1 Miwok, Plains California 10 Miwok, Southern Sierra California 234 Mohave Arizona 2,017 Mohawk
New York <3> 20 Mono California 6,213 Muskogee Oklahoma; Alabama; Florida 148,530 Navajo Arizona; Utah; New Mexico; Utah 697 Nez Perce Idaho 12 Nisenan California 8,000 Ojibwa, Eastern Michigan <3> 35,000 Ojibwa, Western Montana; Lake Superior; North Dakota <3> 112 Okangan Washington 85 Omaha-Ponca Nebraska; Oklahoma 50 Oneida New York; Wisconsin 15 Onondaga New York 5 Osage Oklahoma 2,000 Paiute, Northern Nevada; Oregon; California; Idaho 20 Panamint California 11,819 Papago-Pima Arizona <7> 4 Pawnee Oklahoma 40 Pomo, Central California 1 Pomo, Northeastern California 10 Pomo, Southeastern California 40 Pomo, Southern California 50 Potawatomi Michigan; Wisconsin; Kansas; Oklahoma 34 Quapaw Oklahoma 343 Quechan California 6 Quinault Washington 234 Mohave Arizona 2,017 Mohawk New York <3> 20 Mono California 6,213 Muskogee Oklahoma; Alabama; Florida 148,530 Navajo Arizona; Utah; New Mexico; Utah 697 Nez Perce Idaho 12 Nisenan California 8,000 Ojibwa, Eastern Michigan <3> 35,000 Ojibwa, Western Montana; Lake Superior; North Dakota <3> 112 Okangan Washington 85 Omaha-Ponca Nebraska; Oklahoma 50 Oneida New York; Wisconsin 15 Onondaga New York 5 Osage Oklahoma 2,000 Paiute, Northern Nevada; Oregon; California; Idaho 20 Panamint California 11,819 Papago-Pima Arizona <7> 4 Pawnee Oklahoma 40 Pomo, Central California 1 Pomo, Northeastern California 10 Pomo, Southeastern California 40 Pomo, Southern California 50 Potawatomi Michigan; Wisconsin; Kansas; Oklahoma 34 Quapaw Oklahoma 343 Quechan California 6 Quinault Washington 107 Salish, Southern Puget Sound Washington 30 Salish, Straits Washington <3> 200 Seneca New York; Oklahoma 1 Serrano California 12 Shasta California 234 Shawnee Oklahoma 2,284 Shoshoni Nevada; Idaho; Wyoming 100 Skagit Washington 10 Snohomish Washington 50 Spokane Washington 65 Tanacross Alaska 75 Tanaina Alaska 30 Tanana, Lower Alaska 115 Tanana, Upper Alaska 200 Tenino Oregon 1,300 Tewa New Mexico; Arizona 927 Tiwa, Northern New Mexico 1,631 Tiwa, Southern New Mexico 775 Tlingit Alaska 5 Tolowa Oregon 113 Tsimshian Alaska <5> 6 Tubatulabal California 10 Tututni Oregon 50 Umatilla Oregon 5 Unami Oklahoma; New Jersey; Delaware 1,984 Ute-Southern Paiute Colorado; Utah; Arizona; Nevada; California 100 Walla Walla Oregon 69 Wasco-Wishram Oregon; Washington 10 Washo California; Nevada 10 Wichita Oklahoma 10 Wintu California 3,000 Yakima Washington 406 Yaqui Arizona <6> 78 Yokuts California 12 Yuchi Oklahoma 6 Yuki California 10,000 Yupik, Central Alaska 1,100 Yupik, Central Siberian Alaska <8> 400 Yupik, Pacific Gulf Alaska 10 Yurok California 6,413 Zuni New Mexico
363,995 TOTAL Source: Adapted from B. Grimes (1996). Ethnologue: Languages of the world. Dallas: SIL International. Updated February 1999 at www.sil.org/ethnologue.


Comparisons of assumptions of English only or Bilingual education: http://coe.sdsu.edu/people/jmora/Prop227/AssumptionsEOvBE.htm

Of the 6,000 languages listed in Ethnologue (Grimes 1992) for which there are population figures,
52% are spoken by less than 10,000 people;
28% by less than 1,000; and
83% are restricted to single countries, and so are particularly exposed to the policies of a single government.
10% are spoken by less than 100 speakers


Me Book

[TrogL]

139. I live in a multi-cultural society

I was at an office party this afternoon.

There were probably 30 people there from all sorts of cultures, speaking multiple languages (defaulting to English).

A local African drum band has a bagpiper and Celtic dancers (no, I have no idea. Apparently the piper wanted to join but didn't have a drum, so they said just bring your pipes.)

The local strip mall (about 10 stores) has an Arab grocery, a store selling saris, an East Indian porn video store, an authentic Chinese restaurant, an African art gallery and an English pub.

It works a hell of a lot better than what little I've seen of the "melting pot" down South.

[Bridget Burke]

161. Come farther South to Houston....

It gets far too hot in the summer & we've got Bushes living here. But another problem--rampant growth--has a good side; the city is truly diverse. I work with a pretty good mix & we have an annual party featuring food, music & dress from everybody's home country.

Stores & restaurants serve every ethnic/national group you could name. We've got miles of strip-centers--architecturally dull but culturally fascinating. One neighborhood has supplemental street signs in Vietnamese--another has Chinese. There are Sikh, Taoist, Muslim & Hindu places of worship.

But Texas has always been multicultural. Tejano music consists of polkas & cumbias with Spanish lyrics. Tex-Mex is the original Southwest Fusion Cuisine; don't judge it by Canadian Tex-Mex. (And we've got "more authentic" Mexican places serving recent immigrants & smart gringos.) And Zydeco really grew up in Houston--Clifton Chenier added R&B to the traditional music of the French-speaking Louisiana (Black) Creoles, to entertain the folks who'd moved to Big Houston for work.

People will continue to come to this country. The first generation may never learn English well--they're often too tired after working two jobs. Their children will, if the educational system is allowed to do its job.

Enough cultural differences will remain to fascinate most of us. And to irritate those with sticks up their asses--whether they're unrepentant xenophobes or "liberals" railing about "PC".

[yellowcanine]

158. Governor Goodhair's compassionate conservative veneer just cracked and

fell off - exposing him as just another whiteboy immigrant basher.

[ibegurpard]

163. We should celebrate and encourage expressions of differing cultures

As for language, everyone needs to be able to speak a common tongue but everyone should be encouraged to keep their native language alive. As for the myth that immigrants are somewho trying to supplant English with their own language, I don't know of any immigrant families who don't encourage, and in fact INSIST on, their children learning English as quickly as possible.

[Dees]

165. His wife wants to kill Britney Spears and he's a bigot.

Baltimorons. Repuke suburban rubes.

[KamaAina]

166. Md. native KamaAina opens his mouth: Ehrlich is full of crap and bunk

Man, that Schaefer is a piece of work, too; always has been. Then again, Md. is also the ancestral home of one Spiro T. Agnew (R-Resigned when Resignation Wasn't Cool)

Somehow I doubt we'll be seeing either one of them on a fact-finding trip to Hawai'i any time soon...

See what happens when voters sit on their hands because the Dem candidate doesn't make fireworks go off for them? Please, I beg you, do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Edit: Forgot to bash Md.-based Sinclair -- yes, the ones who canceled the Nightline troop tribute because of Koppel's "political agenda" -- for flying Ehrlich around the state on chartered helicopters during his campaign. Sinclair, too, is full of carp and bunk.

[Dees]

167. My wife grew up in the same neighborhood in

Baltimore with the Agnews. She says the Agnews were a bit bizarre. She met Spiro "Ted" when he was a young attorney. A real cold fish. As cold as he was corrupt I wonder.

[Delano]

172. BY the way, I do agree with the governor's critics on one thing...

"It's time to put your money where your mouth is," Perez said. "If indeed you want everyone to learn English, support the funding."

Definitely. If we are going to welcome immigrants to this country and exploit them in low-wage jobs, the least we can to is provide the funding so that they can learn English and at least have a SHOT at a better job.

[ck4829]

173. Multiculturalism=Pluralism

And Pluralism is one of the things that makes the United States a good place to live.