Doctor Declares Berg Video a Fake

[TNOE]

Looks Like Our DU Sleuths are Pretty Damn Smart

http://rense.com/general52/decap.htm

The first casualty of war is the truth and this one has been no exception. La Voz de Aztlan obtained a copy of the video showing the beheading of American Nick Berg of Philadelphia and immediately something very odd was readily apparent. Not only were the purported screams of Nick Berg not in synchrony with the decapitation but their was also a total lack of blood spurting out as his jugular and other veins and arteries were being cut.
Doctor Raul Castro Guevara is saying that there is no way that the individual in the video was alive and his heart pumping while his neck was being cut. The doctor adds that in these cases, while the heart is pumping, cutting a person artery in the neck, would cause copious amounts of blood to spurt all over the immediate environment. He says that in his opinion the video is a fraud.

We hope that our readers view the video and see for themselves. We will provide a copy to any of our subscribers that have been supportive of our publication. Send a request to La Voz de Aztlan at [e-mail]

More:

http://rense.com/general52/nickk.htm

http://rense.com/general52/stageda.htm

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=new...

[wtmusic]

1. Oh paleeze

He should go have lunch with the gang over at WTC7.net

[Beam Me Up]

31. What's a matter, you don't think we're lied to on a regular basis?

I do.

I'm really fed up with this reactionary knee-jerk anti-conspiricy crap.

Anyone who doesn't question media is a fool. This video was created and released for its SHOCK effect. No one is saying that Berg wasn't decapitated--what is being said is that the VIDEO was produced and released to have a certain social impact. There are a lot of questions about this video--a lot of them--just as there are a lot of unanswered questions about 9/11. It is our RESPONSIBILITY to question WHAT we are being made to think and feel and WHY and by whom. Qui bono. Anyone who isn't using his or her critical thinking, especially in regards to what comes to us via the media, is being manipulated.

[wtmusic]

34. I question everything

This question took about .02 seconds to answer.

I'm really fed up with the knee-jerk "everything is a conspiracy" crap. You're being manipulated by your own paranoia.

[Beam Me Up]

170. I see. You "question everything" with the attention span

of a gnat (.02 sconds). Then you derisively dismiss any further questions by anyone else.

Interesting.

[Mika]

200. Doctor Raul Castro Guevara??

Winston at work?

Doctor Raul Castro Guevara??


straight outta the book

[no_arbusto]

204. I guess

Doctor Franco Goebbels Hitler was unavailable for comment.

[northzax]

52. three questions for you

1: is Michael Berg Dead?
2: was his body found decapitated?
3: does it really matter whether he was alive or dead when decapitated?

[Beam Me Up]

174. Three answers for you:

1: Indeed, unless we are being lied to, Michael Berg is dead.
2: Yes, unless we are being lied to, his body was found decapitated.
4: Yes it does matter whether he was alive or dead when he was decapitated. This latter is the most important because if this video is faked in anyway, then it is a sociological weapon of mass deception.

Your questions are incredibly nieve. What is important is what you believe to be true. Who ever controls your perception of relaity controls you. You will make your life decisions based on what you believe is true and based on what you perceive to be in your best interest. "What difference does it make, he's dead..." is missing the point.

See this post on a different thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[northzax]

177. wow, are you paranoid, or what?

the number of people who would have to be lying for 1 and 2 to be false are asurd. Maybe they got the same people who faked the moon landing?

[bearfartinthewoods]

54. as a hunter, i am

probably one of the few people here who has ever actually slit the throat of a living animal. IMHO, this guy is full of it. the blood doesn't come out under that much pressure if the jugular is totally cut with one slice.

[NNN0LHI]

67. I am confused here. You go hunting using a knife? n/t

[bearfartinthewoods]

87. if it's safe, and i actually hate saying this, considering

the subject of the thread, but slitting a wounded deer's throat is a pretty quick way to deliver the coup de grace.

[NNN0LHI]

103. Oh. I got it now. Of course after following the blood trail of a...

...mortaly wounded deer the thing to do is cut its throat. But I have followed some blood trails my self and by the time we came up to the animal they were very short on blood. The deer has already just about bled to death while running until it went down. The deers blood pressure would be close to zero at this point. So comparing that amount of blood to what would happen with a live uninjured person is not accurate at all.

Don

[bearfartinthewoods]

116. that isn't always the case

i hit a deer in the spine once and it went down immediately. there was very little blood loss.

[tuckessee]

120. Hit in the spine?

Might that cause the deer to be paralyzed?

Might being paralyzed have an effect on aortic action?

Was Mr. Berg shot in the spine with a high velocity rifle bullet before being decapitated?

[bearfartinthewoods]

131. i could see his heart pounding

so i doubt it. if there was signals getting through to make the heart beat, i don't know how aortic function could be impaired.

Christopher Reeves' heart beats, even though his neck is broken and he's quadriplegic.

[stickdog]

136. Pardon me if I believe all doctors I know over Buck the Ripper (mt).

[bearfartinthewoods]

152. fine...when all doctors say it

but you are choosing to belief an internet site referencing a doctor who you don't even know really exists. i'm just telling you what i personally experienced.

[NNN0LHI]

139. Going into shock also lowers blood pressure

I will bet the animal was in shock.

Don

[bearfartinthewoods]

156. that possible but doesn't resipation and heart beat slow

when you go into shock? that wasn't the case.

look...this was my first deer. i thought i killed it outright, laid down my gun and excitedly, ran to the deer. i was majorly freaked to see it panting and still alive. i didn't want it to suffer while i went back and found my gun so i did what i thought would be kindest to end it's suffering.

the time between the shot and my getting there was probably about a minute and i doubt it had time to go into shock.

[Nadienne]

138. I know someone who also shot a deer in the spine

and paralyzed it. He didn't cut the deer's head off to kill it, though.

[bearfartinthewoods]

154. neither did i

having problems with comprehension are you?

[Nadienne]

160. Trusting a hunter

when he gives his expert opinion is as much of a gamble as trusting a doctor when the doctor gives his expert opinion.

[bearfartinthewoods]

166. i didn't claim to be an expert

i'm just telling what happened.

[Nadienne]

172. Nor am I

an expert. But at this point, I am reluctant to call anything impossible. There are a number of things about the video that I consider decidedly odd...

[scared]

95. Excuse me, but.........

Isn't he a doctor? You would think he might know a little of what he was talking about. The thing that I find hard to understand is the lack of any struggle. If someone was attempting to cut my head off my instincts would be to scream, kick, plead for my life. Don't get that at all.

[geek tragedy]

104. As I noted below

the source for this, voz de aztlan, is a notorious hate site that publishes lies all the time. It should never, ever, ever be cited as a source for anything. Less credible than the Freepers.

[tuckessee]

107. Are deer and humans the same?

Do you have more than anecdotal evidence that ungulates and homosapiens spew similar amounts blood when having their throats slit while alive?

Do deer bleed less than poultry who are known to eject large amounts of blood after decapitation?

Have you factored in previous blood loss of the wounded deer you finished off with a blade?

Generally, what is the time lapse between the initial injury to the deer and your coup de grace?

Do you completely sever the head of the deer while its heart is still pumping or do you just slit the throat?

If there is so little blood loss in the deer killing method you practice how do they die?

Is it from blood loss (unlikely considering the lack of blood you describe) or is it from some other cause?

In order to give weight to your dismissals it's pertinent to know these things.

You say there's not a lot of blood if the arteries are "totally cut with one slice" but those who have seen the video state that the decapitator uses a sawing motion which would tend to eliminate the possibility of a "clean cut" and "one slice" scenario.

It's not like the head was severed cleanly in a fraction of a second with a blow from a samurai sword or guillotine.

And if we take the tape at face value, Mr. Berg was alive and well before being decapitated unlike the deer you describe who are already knocking on death's door so any comparisons between the two are invalid .

[bearfartinthewoods]

148. ok

Do you have more than anecdotal evidence that ungulates and homosapiens spew similar amounts blood when having their throats slit while alive?


well comparing the size of the heart being similar. of course, if you want to prove me wrong, you do the research on deer blood pressure etc.



Do deer bleed less than poultry who are known to eject large amounts of blood after decapitation?


there is much more difference between chickens and deer and deer and humans. i have watched my father cut the heads off chickens. the chickens are hung upside down so gravity aids the flow. chickens also have some sort of primitive "mini brain". i don't know the proper term but there is some centralized nerve complex that enables them to move for quite a while after decapitation. people don't have that. when the human brain is separated from the spinal cord, the body ceases to function so therefore the heart is no longer beating as the chickens heart does, post decapitation.




Have you factored in previous blood loss of the wounded deer you finished off with a blade?


minimal. the shot severed the spine and the deer dropped in place.



Generally, what is the time lapse between the initial injury to the deer and your coup de grace?


minimal. i was brush hunting and less than 25 yards away.



Do you completely sever the head of the deer while its heart is still pumping or do you just slit the throat?


the object is to deprive the brain of blood so the animal dies and doesn't suffer any more than necessary. i just slit the neck on both sides. actually cutting the "throat" isn't necissary. just getting the veins.


If there is so little blood loss in the deer killing method you practice how do they die?



the brain is deprived of oxygen when the blood flow is interrupted.




Is it from blood loss (unlikely considering the lack of blood you describe) or is it from some other cause?




see above




In order to give weight to your dismissals it's pertinent to know these things.




sure thing




You say there's not a lot of blood if the arteries are "totally cut with one slice" but those who have seen the video state that the decapitator uses a sawing motion which would tend to eliminate the possibility of a "clean cut" and "one slice" scenario.


i said the pressure of the flow would be different if the artery were just nicked, the blood would spurt farther as compared to cut completly through quickly. i didn't say there would be a difference in the amount of blood loss.

the artery runs very close to the surface of the skin. one slice could easily slice through the artery. they didn't cut in that area right away though. i think the first two slices were under the chin.
i think the third cut his the artery.

this happens at 13:46:00 i believe, when you see the pool of blood begin to form.



It's not like the head was severed cleanly in a fraction of a second with a blow from a samurai sword or guillotine.
And if we take the tape at face value, Mr. Berg was alive and well before being decapitated unlike the deer you describe who are already knocking on death's door so any comparisons between the two are invalid .

as i explained above, the deer was not knocking on death's door. it had a minor wound that just happened to paralyze it.

[Sterling]

193. That explains a lot.

I can;t help thinking of a few movie scenes. Like the one in Powder?

[Wapsie B]

64. So you believe the Warren Commission?

All we're saying is that there's a possibilty that there's something more here than meets the eye.

[doni_georgia]

175. Did you watch the video?

Because I did, and the doctor is right.

[Sparkle]

2. Yep. Some DUers always question everything.

And it's a good thing.

[still_one]

3. BULL

The decapitated body was found, was that a lie also?

All I know is that the actual coroner did not refute the method of death

Unless it is proven otherwise, we look like fools making such statements

[Spazito]

6. What coroner? I have seen no reports that a coroner has been...

involved. Do you have a link on that?

[Terran]

37. Yes, I'd like to see that coroner report link too

if he has such a thing (which I doubt). This matter of the lack of blood is compelling. No one here is denying somebody got killed and had their head cut off; but clearly the events did not take place as the video is meant to portray them. This brings the entire situation into serious question.

[rooboy]

10. If you're afraid of looking like a fool, join the republican party.

Standing up to the mainstream involves a lot of looking like a fool. It's a risky business.

You say "unless it is proven otherwise". Just WHO are you waiting for to "prove otherwise"??? George Bush?

[HuskerDem]

28. Sounding like an illogical nut-job doesn't help the Democratic party

either. I notice you skipped the part about the actual headless dead body.

Hey, maybe Hollywood is in on it too! Yeah, they got the same producer that gave us the lunar landing and the second cousin of the dude that constructed the grey man for the alien autopsy. AND MEL GIBSON! He's a conservative, he must be in on it too!

[Terran]

39. The lack of blood

is exactly the opposite of "illogical"--it's perfectly logical. I was skeptical about the conspiract theory myself until I heard about the this blood issue.

[bearfartinthewoods]

62. you watch too many movies

think of a garden hose. if you nick it and put a tiny hole into a pressure bearing hose, the water will spray out.

but if you cut the hose in two with one stroke, the water just puddles with little pressure.

once the brain is deprived of blood, the heart stops beating fairly quickly. we are talking about 15-30 beats of a heart.... not a whole hellova lot of blood.

i never thought i would have to be talking about this in such a clinical manner but somebody has to.

[City Lights]

74. But his neck wasn't cut in two with one stroke.

It was "nicked at" a number of times.

Have you seen the video?

[bearfartinthewoods]

91. i didn't say his neck was cut in two with one stroke.

i said his jugular was probably cut with one stroke. it lies quite near the skin and there is nothing "tough" in the immediate area. the hacking, and i bet it was hacking, you see was them trying to get through the spine.

[Terran]

98. You most certainly implied it

by this:

but if you cut the hose in two with one stroke, the water just puddles with little pressure.

If that statement is the basis of your interpretation, then it appears you feel that the one-stroke action caused the blood to pool rather than spray. But you admit that his head was not cut off in one stroke, then WHY didn't the blood spray?

[bearfartinthewoods]

114. the hose is analogous to the blood vessel. not the neck.

sheesh..

[Tinoire]

124. Dirk- Once again, good to see here. n/t

[interceptor]

203. It makes sense because of continuity in fluid flow

The guy may or may not be a doctor - but he's no fluid mechanics expert.

Say a fluid passes from a small diameter pipe into a larger diameter pipe. V = velocity, A = area of the pipe, or Pi*r^2. A*V remains constant. If the blood goes from the jugular vein to a small puncture, it will come out fast. If it comes out through a relatively large wound, as here a complete severing of the vein, the velocity will be slower. The velocity in the blood stream is relatively low and relatively laminar.

This is how the spray nozzle on your garden hose works. The velocity of the stream is high. When you take the nozzle off the cross sectional area is greater and the velocity is lower. The velocity of blood in the system isn't that high to begin with, so its perfectly reasonable that there wasn't blood spewing everywhere like a Quentin Tarantino movie.

Seriously, why is this dicussion even taking place?

Yeesh. That "doctor" and a lot of people here need to take a course in fluid mechanics.

-resident mechanical engineer

[diamondsoul]

119. I watched the video. You're wrong, Bear.

The decapitation was begun at the front of his neck, they sawed all the way around the neck until the final work was getting through the spine and esophagus. I watched the whole fucking thing. (apologies for the tone, I'm rather ticked at myself for being so stupid)

Now after getting involved in about a hundred different discussions about this bizarre death I'm going to have to watch it again so I can confirm my observations weren't colored by my absolute horror.

I am certain I saw a man's head being SAWED off, and I'm also certain the man was dead prior to his head being removed. His face never changed during this segment, after the time-stamp changed, however at the very beginning, just BEFORE the time-stamp jumps forward he grimaces.

[Tinoire]

123. I watched it too. Noticed the same thing. They sawed his head off

The milk-fed, fidgetting freaks who did this had NO idea what they were doing. It was nothing like the clean-cut beheadings Islam is 'notorious' for.

I'll go watch it again tonight.

[TahitiNut]

132. Remember what's required for a kosher/halal killing of livestock.

Let's be clear. This is not a region unfamiliar with the requirements of such beheadings. The Berg beheading was anything but kosher.


It's appalling to me that this isn't obvious to more people.

[QC]

135. Are halal procedures required for executing prisoners?

People have raised that point several times, but no one has put forth any evidence that the procedures for slaughtering livestock are the same as those for executing people.

FWIW, there's a video of a Russian being beheaded in Chechnya, and there was no particular effort to make the killing clean and quick. It's even grislier than the Berg video.

[stickdog]

141. Really? Pardon me if I don't take your word for it.

How could it possibly be more amateur and protracted? Did they use a nail file or something?

[TahitiNut]

146. We are well-advised to take notice of "PRO-FORMA" halal ...

... being followed in the (EDITED) video. The purpose is to prevent suffering and anxiety. Great care is taken in both halal and kosher slaughter to make sure the animal doesn't see what's about to happen and suffering is minimized to the greatest extent possible.

If you notice in the video, there's the kabuki of halal, but the depiction (as edited) isn't so artful.

(1) The knife is hidden in the tunic, not displayed.
(2) The slaughterer is behind the victim where his actions can't be seen in advance.

That's the kabuki of the video.

In a halal slaughter, the name of Allah is invoked for each and every slaughter. Not so in a kosher slaughter, where it's regarded as excessive use of the name of G-d.

In both forms of slaughter, a VERY SHARP blade is used to sever ALL the veins and arteries (with ONE slice) and the blood is supposed to be drained with maximum speed from the head - under the presumption that the slaughtered animal is unable to realize fear or anxiety in a brain deprived of blood. In such a slaughter, the head is deliberately held up and back in order to open the veins and arteries for maximum blood flow. That's why.

Where's the blood? Where's the SHARP blade?

[QC]

150. OK, that's a plausible explanation.

I wasn't sure how we got from point A (this is how Muslims slaughter livestock) to point B (so they must kill people the same way). I think you make an interesting case.

Of course, we in the U.S. use bolt guns (and sledgehammers in the past) to kill livestock, yet we never, even in the bad old days, used those methods to execute people. (Of course, one could argue, as I would, that things like gas and electrocution are worse.)

Another interesting point is that Islam prescribes stoning for some offenses, and this is still practiced in some places, like Afghanistan, Iran, and Nigeria. No one could ever argue that stoning is humane or painless, so I'm not sure we can argue that Islam, or at least the fundamentalist variety, always and everywhere requires that executions be painless.

[VolcanoJen]

140. TN, that is a *crucial* point.

One I certainly hadn't thought of.

I have not seen the video, and I will not. It's too much for me. I trust the accounts of various DUers who have seen the video. It certainly seems to me that the man in the video was already dead at the time of the beheading.

Finally... will the press question the DoD, and ask them why they continue to insist Berg was never in US custody, despite the mounting evidence that shows he was?? Too much about this story stinks to high heaven, and I'm starting to think that the DoD/CIA/FBI/OGA wish they'd never started the spinning to begin with.

[NashVegas]

182. Did They Plan on Eating Him?

I'm sorry TN, not trying to be gratuitously gross here, or overly argumentative. But is kosher/halal required for something one doesn't plan on turning into a feast?

[TahitiNut]

189. That's a common misconception.

In this specific case, it's about the suffering not the eating. It would apply, for example, even if the animal were sacrificed.

Clearly, to kill gratuitously would also be prohibited so the only reason its use as food comes into it is because there'd be no other rationale for killing in the first place.

But the point I make isn't so much about intent as it is about the portrayal of methods with which herdsman and ranchers are familiar. Why even engage in the kabuki (hide the knife, come from behind, etc.) of halal?

[Tinoire]

194. Maybe we should dig up old Halal/Kosher threads?

Back from the days when we had more mundane things to worry about such as preventing animal suffering during the slaughter process?

That was anything but Halal in this case

You're right, it's appalling.

Those fidgetting freaks had propably never severed a head before.

Zarqawi, whose face is known all over the world, in a ski-mask indeed! A ski mask, a rotten accent, amateur, milk fed fidgetters surrounding him as opposed to the muscle-tone toned warriors with great posture who usually surround him.

Peace

[TahitiNut]

197. Who can even say the voice-over was spoken by the guy on camera?

After all, can we even see his lips move well enough? This whole thing stinks to high heaven.


The Book of Leviticus has quite a few rules, as does the Qu'ran, most of which have little or nothing to do with food (which is just a subset of what 'kosher' or 'halal' covers). Oh well.

[bearfartinthewoods]

159. i did not say the neck was severed in one stroke!!!

sheeeesh...can anyone read anymore? i said if the blood vessel was cut through with one stroke, there would be less pressure...less power in the flow that if it had been just nicked.

and his head wasn't sawed off. it was cut with repeated strokes of a knife.

i think the first couple cut through the esophagus which is why the blood began to flow from the mouth. about the third or fourth cut, they hit the artery which is when the blood pool begins to form.

btw...if he was dead, how is it he was able to raise his hips off the ground during the ordeal. one of the murderers has a hold of his shoulders so i grant that any shoulder movement could be caused by the murderer moving Berg. BUT.....the murderer also has his knee in the small of Bergs back, yet Berg manages to raise his hip off the floor.

how does a dean man do that?

[diamondsoul]

171. I understood what you were saying.

Again, sorry for my tone, I'm not getting bitchy with you on a personal level.

I'm not sure I agree with your observations is all. It looks like sawing around the soft tissue to me, however I'll confess my video viewers are far from high-tech. In spite of that, the motion of the person doing the cutting did not appear to cross the carotid the way you're suggesting. I gather you saw something differently?

Also, I have a REALLY hard time watching his body while the decapitation is happening, and I don't think I noticed his hips rising off the floor. I was paying more attention to his face for the most part.

I've watched the video 3 more times in the past 10 minutes now and what you describe as blood coming from his mouth, there is no evidence of when the head is held up. Nothing on his lips, nothing on his face at all in the way of blood. You may well have seen something I missed, but overall the whole film looks and sounds....just not quite right. Do you see what I mean??

[Terran]

86. I haven't watched it but...

everyone agrees that it was NOT one stroke, they sawed his head off. So you appear to have proved my point with your hose analogy, no?

[lumpy]

106. Anyone with half a brain

knows there would be plenty of blood if the victim were alive. A garden hose doesn't have a beating heart spurting out water.

[DS1]

195. right, there'd be at least a 2 foot radius of blood on the floor

[troublemaker]

207. at least

[Tinoire]

129. Your words

but if you cut the hose in two with one stroke, the water just puddles with little pressure.

Did you watch the video? The 'hose' was not cut in two with one stroke.

Watch the video and think of your analogy again. There should have been blood all over the place... Take it from a country girl who's seen hogs get their throats sliced.

[bearfartinthewoods]

164. i worked on the kill floor of a slaughter house for two years

were the pigs hanging from their heels?

[Kazak]

41. A body is still dead,

even if you sever the head *after* the body has died, no?

[sangh0]

48. Missing the point

No one has disputed the FACT that this man was decapitated. What is being disputed is whether or not the video shows him being decapitated WHILE HE WAS STILL ALIVE.

That may be a difficult issue for those who can't fistinguish between the video being a fake (a possibility), and the murder being a fake (definitely not a fake)

[0007]

78. Got a link to the "actual coroner report" ?

[Tinoire]

122. Coroner? What coroner? You've been watching too much FOX news

That's about the only place I don't watch & no one else has mentioned a coroner before.

[stickdog]

137. What ACTUAL coroner? You know the guy?

Or do you simply always trust the official story?

[Warpy]

4. That was my impression, also

I've seen carotids rupture as a result of either cancer or infection. They don't gush, they spray. The carotids are narrow vessels close to the heart, and the blood is under tremendous pressure. Even directing the first cut carotid toward the floor would have produced enough spray to soak the executioner. It didn't.

I think he was likely strangled quickly just prior to the decapitation.

This doesn't detract from the fact that the Berg family has lost a son and brother, and that even postmortem, the whole thing was horriffic.

However, there are a lot of questions surrounding who he really was and why he was really in Iraq and who the executioners really were.

I've heard the official story and don't buy a word of it.

[Quahog]

5. Let's see...

They found Berg's headless body. Then they found Berg's bodyless head. What further proof of authenticity do you need?

I watched the video, couldn't make out whether the quantity of blood was copious or whether it was spurting. Seemed like a pretty huge pool of it on the floor. But I also noticed that Berg did not seem to be struggling or even moving during the decapitation.

I hope he was killed some other way first. But at the end of the day, does it really matter? He was murdered and decapitated. Are we really supposed to feel better because the murder and decapitation weren't synchronous?

[camero]

11. No we're not

But murder and decapitation does raise questions about whether it was a staged event or not.

There are more questions than answers in this whole thing.

[asjr]

26. How did they know where to "find the body?"

Did the "terraists" call them on a cell phone and tell them? I don't even have on my hat and I question it.

[QC]

30. Even in Baghdad, one would assume, a headless body

would attract some attention. It's the sort of thing people would notice.

[zbdent]

35. Somewhere on DU, I saw a response to the effect . . .

after the video was announced, somebody here said something like

"I wonder if that's the body they found on the bridge . . ."

Meaning that there was apparently a headless body found on before the knowledge of the video was made widespread.

[maddezmom]

53. I think that was my post: but there wasn't a lot of time between postings

I posted this on 5/11/04 11:58 ET
Body found on Baghdad overpass identified as that of American
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.2004...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And then this was posted on 5/11/04
Video Seems to Show Beheading of American

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[0007]

81. A well traveled road perhaps?

[0007]

92. Who planted the body?

[Quahog]

96. Define "staged event"

You mean, it was a dummy? Berg lost his head some other way, and this was special FX? What do you mean by "staged?"

[camero]

118. Beheading an already dead person

is a "staged event" intended for propaganda purposes. And ask yourself who benefits from this the most.

IIRC, mutilation is a violation of Islamic Law. Execution is not.

[Nederland]

188. No difference

Beheading an alive person is also a "staged event" intended for propaganda purposes. I fail to understand why you think the distinction is relevant.

[camero]

190. a small difference

That goes to credibility.

One is using beheading to generate an emotional reaction.

The other is really killing someone by beheading.

I agree that both could be staged events, but the poster asked me to define it, which I did my best to do.

[rooboy]

14. Yes, I would feel better...

decapitating a dead body is just mutilation of a corpse, which is not inflicting any pain or terror on the victim. Sawing the head off a still-living person is much more vicious and inhumane.

If you ever get the chance to cut my head off, I would prefer to be dead first.

[Bunny]

18. To me, it does matter.

If Nick were my brother, I would take some comfort in knowing that he was dead before the decapitation. I've not seen the video,and don't intend to. I'll take the word of others who have seen it. It was apparently gruesome. Although I would deeply mourn his death, it would matter to me to know that he did not suffer through having his head sawed off with a knife, in a long and excrutiating process. yes, it would matter.

[Terran]

47. Why is this so difficult to perceive?

If the decapitation was staged on an already dead body, it calls into question who did this and why. We're being told it's al Qaeda that did this, but why would al Qaeda need to fake this act?

[RobinA]

56. Maybe Because

al-Qaeda (or whoever) is people too, and probably just as horrified at the idea of sawing a live guy's head off as any freedom-loving, god-loving American? To me, that would be the the simplest reason to fake a video like this.

[bearfartinthewoods]

70. have you watched the video?

if he is dead before they started cutting off his head, why is his body moving the way it is. you can see the point where the body goes slack for pete's sake.

[Terran]

89. No, I have not

I understand the body twitches once after the head is off, but that could easily be faked by one of those five nudging it. I also understand that Berg is strangely immobile *while* his head is being sawed off. Not a situation you'd normally sit still for, is it?

[QC]

90. He's not immobile.

I keep hearing that, but he clearly stiffens his body when they hold him down and start cutting.

[Tansy_Gold]

196. Reply to posts #89 and #90

Both of you watched the video and both of you came away with different impressions of what happened. One says Berg was immobile, one says he wasn't. I'm not going to quibble about the details.

What I will point out, however, is that too many people here are drawing conclusions not from EVIDENCE but from their subjective interpretations of ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE.

The evidence itself doesn't change -- but viewers have different opinions of whether there's blood or not, whether there's a lot of blood or a little. Whether he moved or was jostled by his killers.

THIS WOULD BE LAUGHED OUT OF A COURT OF LAW, and you ain't even close to gettin' there.

People who don't speak Arabic are saying the accents sound phoney. How many people who are making these statements know ANYTHING about Arabic dialects?

once again,

sheesh.

[bearfartinthewoods]

112. your understanding is flawed

he is raising his pelvis off the ground, fighting/bucking, despite the guy who has his knee on Berg's back.

i have to say that for anyone to express an opinion on this without having seen it themselves seems .........

[diamondsoul]

161. Again, I HAVE seen the video.

Berg does not appear to be struggling the way I know I would if someone were sawing through my neck. EVERY BIT of the motion I saw on Berg's part can be attributed to the brute force being used to remove his head from his body.

Tell me this, IF he was alive, WHY is his face so devoid of blood spatter when it's held up for the camera? Take a good look at the angle of the men holding the body and tell me you wouldn't expect to see SOME blood sprayed onto his face during the removal not to mention SOME blood sprayed onto the men holding him down. There is absolutely ZERO arterial spray and, Bear, that ain't possible if the heart pumps even once.

I considered the possibility of his being strangled unconscious first and the apparent motion being reflexive struggling but even that doesn't fit the extreme lack of arterial spray.

[Joanne98]

72. Maybe it was Blackwater guys

really tin foil.

[0007]

80. I view it also and I agree

Berg's supposedly body looked more like a dummy. This did not look real to me.

[Tansy_Gold]

185. "This did not look real to me."

Okay, tell me, then, from your extensive personal experience, what do real beheadings look like?

In nine out of every ten cases that you've observed, how does the living body move during the process?

If you aren't an expert, if you don't have experience, you're just going on what you think, what you imagine, what you've seen in freakin' movies, what you WANT TO BELIEVE BECAUSE IT FITS YOUR FEARS.



GMAFB


Tansy Gold, havin' a Randi moment there, sorry.

[stickdog]

145. 1) We don't know for sure that he was murdered, just that he's dead.

2) More importantly, we don't know who did it.

[SideshowScott]

7. Im still not sure..But something does smell about the whole thing..

I will admit i never saw the video just still shots..And one thing that struck me was that the way the people were standing around berg that they would be coverd in blood when they did it.. BUT they were wearing black and we know that Berg is dead. He could have already been dead when they did it. Im no tinfoil hat person but somthing is kinda fishy about the whole thing.. Perhaps watching the horrific the act was so trumatic to us that we NEED to belive that it could be faked..Anyway its still horrible and if it was not for Bush's vanity war, Berg and over 700 americans would be alive today and thats the main thing.
ON EDIT: There is nothing wrong with asking questions..Sometimes the timing is off but with these guys who are running things who are nothing but crooks everying needs to be questioned and studied. Im still wondering WHO did it..

[mmonk]

8. I believe he was killed

immediately before the beheading also, because anyone familar with crime scenes will tell you their first impression was that they were amazed at the amount of blood in the human body (quotes from CSI people). Does it really matter? Its gruesome enough.

[havocmom]

21. It matters a lot to know the truth

Dead before the decapitation? The event was staged for shock value either way. The question is, WHO staged it? If Berg was already dead before the cameras rolled, he didn't get a chance to say anything to spoil the photo op, did he? That is why it matters to know the truth. If he was dead before, who was holding him in that orange jumpsuit and didn't want anyone to hear his last words?

It matters a great deal, especially when we live in an era controlled by puppet masters who know no loyalty except to their own stinking hides.

[Bozita]

9. one-fourth of the body's blood is servicing the head at any given moment

IIRC.

[LoverOfLiberty]

15. Wow

that almost sounds pornographic

[rooboy]

19. So if it was staged, it was staged by the neocons...

because a neocon's head has much, much less blood servicing it. Hence the error in creating the crime scene.

[Spoon]

12. The most vicious part was not in the video, the part where

it would have been "spraying". There certainly was plenty of blood on the ground.

If Iraqi's/Al Queda did it, they would have just beheaded him. If the CIA/DOD did it, they would have just beheaded him. Would the doc venture to say that it was just Berg and his Iraqi buddies faking it?

[SidDithers]

46. How can you say what the captors would or wouldn't have done?

I'm not defending this act, so please don't take this the wrong way.

If the beheading was meant to send a message, that's not inconsistent with the fact that Berg may have been killed before the beheading. I'm not even going to speculate on who did it. Perhaps they showed some mercy to their captive by killing him before sawing at his neck.

Sid

On Edit: As posted below by another poster, murder is still murder, however it is accomplished.

[ArkDem]

13. What is the latest on UFO sightings? Rense is the best

source I've ever seen for those.

[immoderate]

16. Raul Castro Guevera????

Maybe.

--IMM

[QC]

68. Is he friends with Mao Pol Pot Ho? n/t

[ant]

17. I saw the video

First of all, the quality was kind of crappy so I'm not sure the "conclusions" being made in this article are really possible. When it comes time to do the killing, the camera moves around a lot and things get really jolty. There were several people screaming, I'm sure Berg was one of them, but he probably wasn't the only one. The minute they grabbed him and put him on his side was when the screaming began, and that makes perfect sense. I think by that point he had figured out what was happening.

And I do think there was a lot of blood - it turns out a decapitation is a lot harder than I had imagined - but again, given the quality of the video that conclusion is based on the fact that the ground surrounding the area where they were carving around his head was of a different color than the rest of the floor and resembled the shape of a puddle.

I'd have to watch it again to comment more, and I'm not interested in doing that.

[tnlefty]

24. That's not what I saw because originally I didn't intend to watch the

worst of it. The hellish audio kicked in prior to anyone touching him or his body moving and I stood up to turn the speakers down, trying to figure out what was going on and when I looked back at the computer screen it was becoming obvious what was going on.

[ant]

97. well

Most of the video was a lot of reading from whatever piece of paper, so I fast forwarded through most of that, and then all of sudden the yelling started and they reached for him, or they reached for him and then the yelling started, or they reached for him as the yelling started....

My point was the yelling was not confined to the moment of the decapitation but that does not mean the CIA killed Berg. It's actually a pretty meaningless thing.

My other point was that anyone could be yelling in the video and, in fact, I believe several were. It wasn't just Berg, so I don't see how you would know (A) how any one particular scream is in synch with anything or (B) what any one particular scream should be in synch with.

[tnlefty]

134. And I was merely stating an observation

Others:

At 2:44:33 there is an audible - no don't hurt me - and the guy still has the paper in his hands reading.

At 2:44:39 he hands the paper off to the person at his left and pulls the knife.

At 13:34:48 Mr. Berg is pulled to his side.

Is it possible that a '1' isn't showing up against the lighter background? I don't know.

Why the center time numbers change from 44 to 34 I don't know.

Is there any significance to the audio not being in synch with the video? I don't know enough about how computers handle audio and video to know so I don't know. Could the audio have been dubbed in? I don't know.

Apparently all I do know is that from observations that I've made there's a lot that I don't know or understand.

[ant]

165. it seems, then...

...that if this was done by the CIA, or some other nefarious organization, they are incredibly incompetent. Not only can they not effectively dub a video, they don't seem to have a problem releasing a terribly dubbed video. (Though I'm sure some of the stronger pro-conspiracy types will quickly remind me that it's important to make the job look unprofessional so people like me will question it...)

Anyway,

Is there any significance to the audio not being in synch with the video? I don't know enough about how computers handle audio and video to know so I don't know. Could the audio have been dubbed in? I don't know.

All very different from claiming this proves the video is a fake, which the original article did. There's a world of difference between "that's odd" and "that proves he was already dead."


Observations are fine, but let's not go crazy jumping to conclusions.

[tnlefty]

178. FWIW I found another area in the tape where the time changes and I

truly don't know what to make of it.

In the very beginning Mr. Berg is sitting in the chair stating who he is and the shot is from a side angle (his left side). The time is around 13:26:24.

The camera changes to a frontal shot and he's still reciting info., but the time has changed to around 2:18:35.

This truly has me puzzled.

[ant]

198. you know what I was thinking...

...so the voice is allegedly that of that Zu-whatever guy, and the claim is that that's him in the video killing Berg.

Now, couldn't it be possible that for some reason, this guy and his buddies wanted the US to think he killed Berg but he couldn't actually do it - maybe he's hiding out somewhere and can't get out, too many US troops around, whatever.

So, he tapes the audio portion, they tape the video portion, and then they put them together.

I know the CIA came out today saying the voice was that of Zu-whatever, but I don't know if you can do any sort of analysis on a video collected online to disentangle audio/video portions and determine whether or not they're from the same source. It's pretty obvious that the two don't match up, and I would hope that's something the analysts noticed and considered.

Whoever put the stuff together could've just had an audio that they had to create video for, so they filmed what they could, then edited it up to match the audio as best as possible, and there you go. Perhaps shutting the camera on/off reset the times so that's why the stamps are all out of order.

I'm still lacking a clear motive on this theory - I guess having the murder committed by a top official is symbolic and all, but that's the best I can do.

Anyway, just a thought that came to me this afternoon.

[soothsayer]

20. That would explain the weird timestamp probs

were he killed beforehand. Or maybe they killed him as we see on the video, and then later decide they should behead the dead body. Don't know.

But this story is verrrrry bizarre.

[Sgt. Peppers]

22. As a Red Cross worker, I never count out anything

Never underestimate anyone at anytime. Their are many things to consider. Including are the terrorist who they say they are, that can lead to more questions. I don't know if it is real, but I know I do not trust any of the Bush administration, noe do I trust our Middle Eastern participants. WHo can trust anyone these days huh.

[Fleshdancer]

29. Hey! You're one of those "human rights do gooders!"

Thank you for your wonderful work.

[nolabels]

69. Sometimes you can't even trust the Red Cross, but that is another story

If it's a thing made by humans, it's bound to have human faults

I applaud you and thanks for telling how it works


http://www.fpif.org/briefs/vol3/v3n20hri_body.html
Human Rights and Intelligence Reform

Volume 3, Number 20
July 1998

by Carlos Salinas, Amnesty International
Editors: Tom Barry (IRC) and Martha Honey (IPS)
Key Points

* International law prohibits extrajudicial killings, "disappearances," torture, and ill-treatment under any circumstances, but these are frequent in the intelligence arena.
* The CIA is only one of many components of the vast U.S. intelligence community, which has an annual budget of more than $26 billion.
* Secrecy around intelligence activity has resulted in the public’s ignorance about the magnitude and type of intelligence operations and has prevented meaningful participation in this area of government.

The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has long been associated with the overthrow of governments and the installation of bloody military regimes. Examples include the unseating of Mossadegh in Iran in 1953, the overthrow of Guatemalan President Arbenz in 1954, the failed invasion of Cuba in 1961, and the toppling of Chilean President Allende in 1973. The overthrow of governments is only one cause for notoriety. Other factors include: the creation, training, and funding of foreign armies and insurgents such as the Laotian Hmong during the 1960s and the Nicaraguan contras and Afghani mujahideen during the 1980s; assassination attempts of foreign leaders such as Cuba’s Fidel Castro; giving LSD to unsuspecting U.S. citizens; and other "dirty tricks." There is a vast array of international legal instruments, including the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Geneva Conventions, that prohibit extrajudicial executions, "disappearances," torture, and ill-treatment in any circumstance. Yet these violent overthrows and the operations of CIA-associated armed groups routinely involve such crimes.

The CIA is just one of many components of the U.S. intelligence community, which has an annual budget of more than $26 billion (just disclosed in 1997, due to a lawsuit). Composed of a vast array of interlocking agencies, the complexity of this community can hardly be summarized in an organizational chart. There are, first of all, about a dozen so-called "national" intelligence agencies, the foremost including: the CIA, charged with intelligence analysis, secret human intelligence gathering, and covert action; the Defense Intelligence Agency, which collects and produces intelligence at the Pentagon; the National Security Agency, tasked with obtaining signals intelligence (e.g. electronic eavesdropping) as well as breaking and creating codes; and the National Reconnaissance Office, which manages satellite collections. In addition, national intelligence is produced by components of each of the military branches; by small offices in the Departments of State, Energy, and Treasury; and by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Then there is "joint military intelligence," which includes numerous programs and agencies designed to provide intelligence for defense-wide military requirements. Finally, there is "tactical" intelligence, comprising hundreds of programs in various agencies that are intended to provide intelligence support to military commanders on the battlefield.

This multifaceted intelligence network gathers information about topics or human "targets," often without the knowledge of the target and managed so that the target remains unaware. This is especially the case with signals intelligence such as electronic eavesdropping. In other cases, intelligence is gathered directly from foreign officials or other individuals who have agreed to provide the human intelligence information in exchange for financial or other compensation. Information is also obtained and exchanged formally through liaison relationships with foreign intelligence agencies.

Covert action is yet another intelligence operation. Not limited to gathering information, a covert action is any operation in which the hand of the U.S. is to remain hidden. A key concept for such actions is that of plausible deniability—the ability of the president to disavow any U.S. knowledge of involvement in the action. The legal basis for covert actions is derived from the National Security Act of 1947, which states that as part of its role the agency will perform "other functions and duties related to intelligence…"
(snip)

[Q]

23. It might be important to the TRUTH...

...that we know exactly WHY and HOW this poor man was executed. This man was obviously dead before he was beheaded. It might be a minor detail...but as someone mentioned above...it might help his family to cope knowing he didn't suffer a slow beheading.

- There is also an eleven hour gap in the video. What does this mean? It may provide even more evidence that there was a period of time between the reading and the execution. It may provide hints as to why this was staged to LOOK like a live execution.

[Aries]

25. "Video Oddities" (Agonist)

http://www.agonist.org/archives/015633.html#015633

Video oddities

...There are plenty of questions raised concerning the video too. The body is completely motionless even as the knife is brought to bear – not so much as an instinctive wriggle.

More graphically, some claim that cutting the throat's artery would cause a significant amount of blood. But little emerges and when the head was raised – not a drop of blood is seen to fall.

In a possible explanation, one discussion room member suggested that Berg was killed and then beheaded later.

However, the circumstances of the video release are also strange. A Reuters journalist in Dubai first named the Muntada al-Ansar al-Islami website as the source for the video – at www.al-ansar.biz .

Although the site has now been shut down, Aljazeera.net had looked at the site within ninety minutes of the story breaking – and could find no such video footage.

But Fox News, CNN and the BBC were all able to download the footage from the Arabic-only website and report the story within the hour....

[mumon]

51. exactly

I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have struggled.

[truebrit71]

27. Whilst I have reservations about the "Doctor"..it does make sense

From the outset this video has looked very suspicious, not least of which is the continual jumping of the time stamp. There is a time jump of ELEVEN hours between when it appears that the beheading starts and when it is actually finished leading me to believe that Berg was killed by some other means, and THEN his head was cut off. Some might argue that that is just semantics but I suggest that it is a DELIBERATE attempt to inflame an already highly highly inflammatory visual image.

Also, if he actually WAS being beheaded alive, why could you hear the screams? Surely as soon as the knife severed the vocal chords all sound whould cease? No?

I remain unconvinced that this was done by those the US Government would have us believe it was done by.....

[Mike Daniels]

32. Wow. One testimony listed in the article

and we're supposed to take this as the gospel truth that the thing was faked.

Man, it's amazing that people will dismiss articles that support an opposing POV because of unnamed or limited sources and then will flip around and support another article with no more evidence or testimony as the unrefutable truth just because it supports what they want to believe.

I'm not dismissing anything at this time as anything is possible but I do think rampant partisanship really does cloud the mind at times and cause it to act in inconsistent ways.

[yardwork]

43. I don't see anybody saying anything is "gospel" here

People are raising legitimate questions. I don't understand why that gets other people so upset.

Nobody is excusing the murder, torture, or desecration of another human being. I have not seen one post here or anywhere that excuses this or downplays it (unlike the Republican response to the atrocities in Iraq, which are being downplayed disgracefully).

What we are asking - and I have asked on other threads - are legitimate questions about a video that presents with numerous discrepancies.

We want to know the truth. The real truth. We don't want to get sidetracked with horror or sadness. We want to stay focused on the facts, because that way lies justice for the murdered and abused.