"On January 21st, I'll be protesting DINO President Kerry"

[mot78]

What kind of bullshit is this? I've heard from a number of people that they'll be protesting against him when he takes office because he's said he won't pull out of Iraq, or if he can't deliver on his promises (even though he'll meet a hostile Congress). Geez, and I thought Freepers would be the first ones.

[Jacobin]

1. Got any draft age kids?

I have two.

If that sonofabitch gets us further into this goddamned quagmire, I'll be there with banners and signs screaming my head off at the bastard.

[Walt Starr]

3. I have a draft age nephew

and I'll be right beside you.

[carols]

14. I like Kerry, but I'll be right there with you (3 draft aged children)

if it even smells like the draft is coming.
Carol

[fearnobush]

19. Just remember he is our only hope of ending this.

I believe he will do the right thing. I also believe the support of the planet will be behind him and will rally to his call for a fast true soveriegn Iraq and a quick pull out. If not, they please, protest the hell out of him.

[Jacobin]

23. 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago

Remember that.

If you weren't there, read about it.

Kerry will get my vote, but by god he won't kill my kids.

[QC]

77. The protests at that convention helped put Nixon in the White House.

This getting 30,000 more kids killed than might have happened if Humphrey had won.

[Jacobin]

21. I suppose some people don't remember the 1968 Dem Convention:

(Not you Walt, but others perhaps)

[greatauntoftriplets]

37. I remember it, I was just 19 at the time....

...but in Wisconsin for the week. Probably kept my head from getting bashed.

[pacifictiger]

13. Shrub has gotten everyone into a hell of a mess

and there is no getting around the fact that pandora's box has been opened and we're still going to have to try to find a way to close it. If Kerry pulls out totally, all at once, that will create the same conditions as Reagan did when he withdrew from Afghanistan (he too should never have gone in there!!!) And look what happened in Afghanistan after that. This has now become bigger than just iraq - security of some sort must be maintained (though more as a police/civil defense action than military bravado) or there truly will be more worldwide chaos later down the road.

[Jacobin]

29. Ya know what? Those words are fucking ringing in my ears

They are the exact same fricking words used by those who wanted to stay in Vietnam.

And Kerry KNEW this would happen.

As stated, I will vote for him because we have no choice. He better remember who put him in office.

[pacifictiger]

59. It was the republican secrecy about vietnam

that created so many problems, and it too was brought about by a macho attitude of 'we'll show them!' Nixon promised to find a way to end it when he was elected in 1968, and instead escalated.
I do not see Kerry making that mistake in iraq but will instead transition into international diplomacy and legitimate peacekeeping forces.

[IrateCitizen]

63. Yeah. The lying and secrecy by LBJ's administration was irrelevant

:eyes:

Here's a tip -- go read Secrets by Daniel Ellsberg to get a good idea of the duplicity from the Democratic LBJ administration, then come back and tell me how Vietnam was somehow "Nixon's war".

Not to excuse the things that Nixon and Henry the K did in SE Asia, because they were despicable -- but LBJ's crew had their fair share of lying to the public to justify further involvement as well.

[pacifictiger]

66. LBJ certainly has plenty of blood on his hands too.

A few things to me are unexplained and perhaps point to other people pulling strings behind the scenes (war profiteering?)
Was Kennedy assassinated because he wanted to pull out of Vietnam? Who pulled the strings to persuade Kennedy to pick Johnson as vp in the first place?
Who or what persuaded Johnson not to run for re-election leaving it pretty wide open for the Nixon crowd? (who incidentally are the same ones we have calling the shots now.) That was the period when the good old white moneyed and holy roller southern boys started becoming republicans.

[Art_from_Ark]

54. Say what?

Reagan never sent troops to Afghanistan-- the Soviets were occupying the country during his entire two terms. He did send troops to Beirut for God-knows-what reason, and 250+ of them never made it back, but Beirut had been a hell-hole long before that.

[pacifictiger]

58. he never "officially" sent

troops that anyone knew about, just a ton of money and resources.
-----
By 1983, the CIA was purchasing assault rifles, grenade launchers, mines, and SA-7 light antiaircraft weapons, totaling 10,000 tons, mainly from China. The Reagan administration had them shipped to Pakistan, a country that at the time was working closely with Washington.

Then, in a move that marked a turning point in the relentless war, in 1985, President Ronald Reagan made a secret decision to escalate covert support to the mujahidin. Soon after, the CIA began to supply an extensive array of intelligence, military expertise and advanced weapons to the Muslim rebel forces. They included satellite reconnaissance data of Soviet targets in Afghanistan; Soviet plans for military operations based on satellite intelligence and intercepts of Soviet communications; covert communication technology for the rebels; detonating devices for tons of C-4 explosives for urban targets; long-range sniper rifles; a targeting system linked to a U.S. Navy satellite; and wire-guided anti-tank missiles.1 Furthermore, amidst intensifying debate within the CIA over the extent of U.S. involvement in the war, Reagan made the decision to equip the mujahidin with sophisticated U.S.-made Stinger antiaircraft missiles. American-trained Pakistani officers were sent to Afghanistan to set up a secret mujahidin Stinger training facility, which was complete with a U.S.-made electronic simulator. By 1987, the CIA was sending a steady supply of 65,000 tons of arms to the mujahidin.

While it funneled equipment, intelligence and money to the mujahidin, Washington maintained its armchair supervisory role in the war by entrusting Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency (ISI) to handle direct contact, operations with, and training of the mujahidin. In all, the United States provided over $2 billion in weapons and money to seven Islamic mujahidin factions in the 1980s, making this last Cold War battle the largest covert action program since World War II.2
----------------------

[IrateCitizen]

60. The two (Afghanistan and Iraq) are nothing alike

In Afghanistan, many of the forces fighting the Soviets were actually NOT Afghans. They were Muslim extremists who the US helped recruit to flood Afghanistan in the spirit of waging a holy war against the infidel, atheist Soviets.

Additionally, Afghanistan was largely a poor, uneducated country with little in the way of technical advancement or expertise.

In Iraq, the people fighting the US are Iraqis. They aren't fighting a holy war, they're fighting a nationalist war. There's a HUGE difference. In fact, this very fact makes the parallels much closer to Vietnam than anywhere else -- another instance of our fighting against a native, nationalist movement while trying to portray it as something else entirely.

Also, there is significant technological expertise within Iraq. The reason it is a third world country is not because of lack of technology -- but rather because of 12+ years of bombing and sanctions. Compared to much of the rest of the Middle East, the general populace in Iraq is pretty well-educated.

Your argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[pacifictiger]

65. Afghanistan and Iraq are alike in many ways.

Where they are different is that modern Iraq has oil wheras Afghanistan has few natural resources except for some precious gems such as emeralds and lapis in the mountains, and nowadays, poppies.
Like Iraq it had been part of the Ottoman Empire and also had large number of extremely well educated people among their population - too many of them left due to chaos in the country over the past 40 years or so. Both had been an important part of the silk road that lasted for 2000 years. I'm not sure of the exact events between the late 1800's and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after WW1, but essentially its modern day borders, like Iraq, were drawn based on what looked good on a map, rather than taking into account the many ethnicities that existed within those borders. And like iraq, became a magnet and excuse for foreign arab fundamentalists to be drawn to fight and stir up its citizens.
The way Bush has approached this has been disastrous - to leave suddenly would be disastrous. The only middle ground solution is slow withdrawl, exceptional diplomacy, while figuring out a way how to restore dignity to the citizens of iraq.

[Old and In the Way]

17. Me too, 15 and 16.

I trust Kerry implicitly to do the right thing.

[IrateCitizen]

62. I'd rather prod him to do the right thing than trust him

Trust in leaders has been proven to be a fool's errand countless times in US history.

[Bjornsdotter]

35. Yep...me too!

Hi,

I also have 2 children who will shortly be draft age.

Call me....I'll be there, screaming right along with you!

Cheers,
Kim

[Jacobin]

40. The one thing we have going for us as Dems

is that we do not have blind faith in one man. That is the republican's strength, in the short term, and their downfall in the long term.

Kerry will not "win" this election. More people will vote for him than Bush* (I'm now convinced) because Bush is literally destroying the United States of America and no one can tolerate him anymore.

Kerry had better not gamble the lives of more americans on the off chance he can resurrect this quagmire in Iraq for his political gain. He had better not.

[Andy_Stephenson]

75. He will...

take it to the bank. His oil stocks demad it...he voted for it..."get over" it...he will say

[aquart]

86. So. Is it the war or the draft you object to?

If either or both Koreas or NATO decided to nuke us, would you be most comfortable if only lower class volunteers fought and died?

Is this NIMBY patriotism? Racist liberalism?

I'm trying to figure it out.

I'm utterly opposed to this war. I'd pack us up and out of there tomorrow.

But I favor the draft. I favor universal service and universal suffrage.

[girl gone mad]

2. They have a right...

to protest a war they feel is unjust.

[mot78]

4. I'm not saying they shouldn't

But it seems that some won't give Kerry even a second to listen to their grievances. And if Kerry is elected he said he won't restart the draft, and the fact that he doesn't piss off world leaders may convince them to take up some of the burden in Iraq.

[Walt Starr]

9. He could signal to the world that the nightmare is over with a simple act

Name William Jefferson Clinton as Secretary of State.

That would guarantee an exit strategy.

[AntiLempa]

61. I'm sure the Iraqis would love that. . .

Clinton has the blood of many, many Iraqis on his hands. Why would/should they trust him?

[corporatewhore]

71. Bill clinton are you serious!!! beween the bombings and the sanctions

he dont have that good of track record in iraq

[Jacobin]

32. If he sends more troops to Iraq, there will be no choice

I've watched lots of presidents in my time. The one thing we know is that they will all lie to get elected. Kerry is no different. I'm voting for him, but I've got my eyes wide open.

Anyone who thinks a democratic administration will be all flowers and honey is delusional. NO politician gets my blind faith. NONE.
That's why we are in the goddamned mess we are in right now.

[Andy_Stephenson]

78. AMEN! n/t

[Andy_Stephenson]

76. He may not restart the draft...but "national service"

sounds like the draft to me. Color me skeptical. I have no faith in Kerry to do anything right at this point.

[Nlighten1]

5. What kind of bullshit is this blind conformity to a candidate?

We need to be looking out for America and I don't think JFK'2 is really meeting the needs of progressive Americans.

[ComerPerro]

88. Oh, but Bush sure as shit is, isn't he

I mean, come on. Why not give Kerry at least a few weeks to get things going. Why jump all over him right away just because you don't agree with every one of his positions? The reich wing will do it anyway, so the left probably won't have to do much...

[nonconformist]

6. I won't call him a DINO

But in light of the events of the last couple of weeks, I think Kerry needs to change his platform and say he'll pull us out of Iraq.

Believe me, he won't lose moderates... he'll GAIN them from the people I've talked to. It will set him directly opposite of Bush on a crucial issue, and people need to be able to see clear differences in them.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. As long as they vote for him on the first Tuesday in November

I couldn't care less. It is their right to dissent.

[NMDemDist2]

8. and you know what? he'll listen to you and won't have you in a "free

speech" zone 3 miles away.

[corporatewhore]

72. Actually there is going to be a free speech zone at the DNC con in boston

[Andy_Stephenson]

79. Kind of blows this theory right out the window

"he'll listen to you and won't have you in a "free speech" zone 3 miles away."

[revcarol]

93. Like he listened to us before he voted for the IWR??????

Fat chance. He'll get our votes, along with an already lit fire to hold his feet to.

[turiya]

10. wait until Jan 22nd

Kerry needs time to prove he is not really PNAC.

[mot78]

11. I'll give him some time

And believe me, I'm not going to agree with everything he does. And I will be protesting if he brings back the draft. No way in hell am I going to Fallujah!

[charlie]

20. Well, there you go

That's your non-negotiable. Others think Kerry's already given short shrift to theirs. They'll vote him in, then hold his feet to the fire. What's the big whoop?

[Andy_Stephenson]

80. No he is the kinder gentler version...

a "Progressive Internationalist"

[Kanary]

12. Do you want to actually hear an answer, or just call it bullshit?

You see, you haven't really opened this question up to discussion... just another bashing.

Sooo....... bash this......

I'm facing cuts to my disability that will wipe me out. You think that's bullshit? If so, trade places with me.

Kerry supporters say he'll "save the day" for me and others....... I doubt it...... his words don't give me any reassurance in that matter.

You think that's easy to live with? Can you have any compassion for what this feels like to me?

Yet, all I hear is how any doubts are "bullshit" and "bashing".

So, I'll happily trade places with you.

There... I tried. You can listen, hear and have some compassion.

Or, you can dismiss me, and walk all over me.

Kanary

[mot78]

18. I'm sorry for your troubles

I'm not bashing people who end up protesting Kerry, period. But I'm bashing people who said the first thing they'll do, REGARDLESS OF HOW KERRY ACTS, is to protest him, even though he wouldn't be in office long enough to enact his policies.

[Kanary]

30. *ANY* reason we've given for not being trusting of Kerry

has gotten us bashed.

Having some compassion about those reasons, and then actually being willing to take it further, and supporting us in our petitions for action would not only go a long way towards making DU a more pleasant place, it would also strenghten the party. Doeesn't that seem like a worthwhile goal?

I wish you really understood how many potential votes for Kerry have been chased off. If that's the way Kerry supporters are canvassing their neighborhoods, then .......................

And, if Kerry people *aren't* talking that way to strangers and neighbors they're trying to "convert", then why talk to people here that way????

Kanary

[mike_c]

15. if Kerry takes office and doesn't end the occupation...

...then it's Kerry's war for the next 4 years and yes, you can count on me marching. Read the PNAC agenda if you haven't already. There are NO tactical objectives to be achieved in Iraq-- staying only furthers the stratigic goals of the PNAC neo-con pig bastard crowd. If Kerry continues the occupation for one day longer than it takes for an orderly withdrawal, he carries water for Perle, Feith, Cheney, and so on. Damned right I'll be marching!

[FlemingsGhost]

16. John Kerry is not a popular candidate.

He is simply not George W. Bush.

[Walt Starr]

27. Well,...that's why I'm voting for Kerry

He's the Not-Bush and the Not-Bush would get my vote even if the Not-Bush were a pile of stinking dog shit.

Doesn't mean I have to like it or won't say, "hey, we have a stinking pile of dog shit for a president!"

[sampsonblk]

55. I agree

At this point, its all about ABB. I will support Kerry only to get rid of Bush. But that does NOT mean I will up on the issues that are important to me - and Kerry is on the wrong side especially on this so-called war.

[bloom]

68. I think Bush*es "popularity"

has been manufactured. Like an advertising campaign that some people bought. I don't think he is inherently charismatic or anything.

[BeatleBoot]

22. Yeah, I Heard Iraq Is Kerry's Fault...

WTF?

[Deja Q]

24. Partly his fault, perhaps.

He voted for it, but others deserve far, far more blame...

Now I don't keep up as often with the media. Has he openly changed his mind and explain in great detail as to why?

[BeatleBoot]

42. Tough crowd, tonight...

Deanie / Greenies peut-etre?

Yes, he voted for it, but we were all lied to.

[Andy_Stephenson]

81. Sorry this doesn't wash "we were all lied to."

Kerry more than anyone knew Buscho was capable of lying. After his :eyes: valliant investigation into BCCI he more than anyone knew the lies they could tell. Kerry should have listend to the advice and council of his boss...the American People. Instead he chose war and now has blood on his hands...as does Bush et al...as does every other member of congress that voted for this damnable war.

[Jacobin]

31. He voted for the damn thing

And yeah, i've heard all the excuses and pontificating.

But, he better damn well realize this quagmire will NEVER end until we leave.

[UTUSN]

46. *

[Gman]

25. Fine... protest Kerry in January

but vote for him in November.

[seabeyond]

26. big thumbs up, clinton entered office and had

immediate 8 years of attack from the republican. oh so productive and responsible, and creating so much of the back drop for bush to come in and take it all over

so we get bush out and we.............

go after kerry as soon as he walks in so not only the repugs attacking him, now his supporters will. yup

i am seeing unity coming our way

[Jacobin]

34. Blind faith in a president is what got us into this damn mess

The only difference is that the current idiot has the blind faith of the right.

I suggest we keep a sharp eye on our candidate to make certain that he doesn't do an LBJ on us.

I will NOT worship any candidate, right left or center. And if he gets off track, he needs to hear it. Hopefully, this one will listen.

[seabeyond]

36. i havent worshipped a d*mn person in my life

i dont have that issue and wont have it with kerry. i also know how to work with people and be cooperative instead of attacking unless i am given exactly what i want every moment that i want it. regardless if it is a strong minority wanting it

i DONT expect kerry to be perfect. and i DONT expect him to speak and create exactly what i want. and i wont throw a childish fit if i DONT immediately get what i want

i am willing to listen, and i am willing to see him settle himself and what type of leader he is, before i decide who he is without a chance.

[Jacobin]

41. That's where we are different

I WILL throw a childish fit if that sonofabitch reinstates the draft and sends my kids to die in a meatgrinder.

The childish fit that I participated in protesting the Vietnam war. The childish fit of a father who WILL NOT let a president send his kids to die for empire.

[seabeyond]

43. i will protest a draft

havent heard that is what he is doing. if he goes into office and time goes on and i see he is talking a draft, then i will protest too. kinda what i say, let him get in and see what he does. to protest without a man having even done anything yet besides taking oath is silliness.

i merely say allow the man a chance before jumping on him. but hey, we already have him implementing the draft and you throwing your childish fit and election is a good 6 months away. wow

[Jacobin]

44. Kinda personal to me

When you have loved ones at risk, you may find yourself a little less analytical, a little less forgiving and a little more demanding.

But, maybe not.

:-)

[seabeyond]

49. i have two sons

and they are young, not draft age. kerry has said no to draft. he may/may not still see a way to do iraq. gotta say again, just from saying it a week ago. all the things that have happened in a mere week has shifted this war so. kerry cannot have a clue what he will do in january. he doesnt have a clue what january will bring.

we have the pentagon not liking this war
we have state not liking war
we have over 60% people not liking war
a world not liking war
iraq not liking occupation
nato saying they are going to wait to november
congress finally owning responsibity more
republicans saying it isnt good
even tucker a right wing mouth piece saying no to war
novak has even turned on rumsfield
micheal moore book out soon

who knows where we will be in january. personally i am seeing this war is going to be about over in some way by then. i dont know. none of us do

[Jacobin]

51. We are all on the same page then

I just think it doesn't hurt to remind those who we elect to office that in wars people get maimed and killed and its real blood. And there better be a DAMN good reason to go to war. Like for instance, we are attacked.

Kerry should know this obviously, he was in Vietnam. I have been startled though to listen to him talk about the invasion of Iraq. Very startled.

He's our last best hope. I desperately want to believe he won't escalate, but I've seen politicians do things in my life that leads me to be distrustful.

We shall see.

[Andy_Stephenson]

82. Voting for and supporting...

are two different things.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

28. If That's What It Takes to Get Their Vote in November

I'll run up and hug those protesters, even as I'm celebrating Kerry's inauguration.

DTH

[Taverner]

33. Vote Kerry, hold his feet to the fire...Surprised I gotta explain this

Even if you hate Kerry, he is CLEARLY better than Bush. And TEN FREAKIN TIMES BETTER AT LEAST!!!

And, we can hold his feet to the fire.

So yes, Vote Kerry in Nov

And if he keeps up the quagmire, by all means protest him.

[DU GrovelBot]

38. ## Support Democratic Underground! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v2.0
==================
 
The time now is 10:37:31PM EDT, Wednesday, May 12, 2004.
 
There are exactly...
4 days,
1 hours,
22 minutes, and
29 seconds left in our fund drive.
 
This website could not survive without your generosity. Member donations 
pay for more than 84% of the Democratic Underground budget. Don't let
GrovelBot become the next victim of the Bush economy. Bzzzt.
 
Please take a moment to donate to DU right now. Thank you for your support.
 
- An automated message from the DU GrovelBot

Click here to donate.

[UTUSN]

39. Well, *I* Wouldn't Vote for a Dino Headline Like Yours n/t

[genius]

45. Let's give Kerry a chance before we hang him.

He might actually turn out to be a good president.

[Jacobin]

47. Every person in this thread said they would vote for him

Why are Kerry supporters so worried about that?

I'm ABB. I'd vote for PeeWee Herman before I'd vote for Smirk.

But dammit, he has a bad track record on IraqNam and his vote. Call it a warning shot over the bow of Kerry's administration, which looks like he will be successful BECAUSE of IraqNam.

Hope he gets the message.

[Redleg]

48. It does seem a bit premature.

Why not give Kerry a few months in office before y'all start yammering about how he isn't liberal enough for you.

[carnival]

53. Kerry

Kerry will be inheriting a bigger mess than any President in the history of the Republic, save Andrew Johnson. Even FDR, who inherited a depression of historic proportion and growing fascist threat in Germany and Italy had it better than Kerry will, if he claims the White House.

Kerry will have an exit strategy and a strategy for dealing with the legitimate threat that radical-Islamic terrorism presents.

But he will not get it done overnight.

[Redleg]

64. Agreed. Since the mess will be so big we need to be patient.

Kerry is a bright guy and will have bright people in his cabinet.

[Andy_Stephenson]

85. Like Rand Beers?

I feel better already!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

94. And Richard Morningstar!

:party:

[Andy_Stephenson]

83. Kerry is hitting the jackpot...War depression and

facism...he helped to create with his vote for the Patriot Act and Homeland Gestapo.

Such a liberal that John...makes me giddy!

[UTUSN]

50. *

[Jacobin]

52. Very informative posts there, UT.

I'm glad there are folks who are high behind their candidate. He will get our vote.

:-)

[0rganism]

56. I will gladly vote for Kerry in November, and happily protest his policies

if they happen to suck.

Somehow, I think he'd understand.

[DaveSZ]

57. It's called standing up for principles

One thing about liberals is that we don't give our guys a free pass when they do wrong.

Bush doesn't get a free pass, and neither will Kerry.

:kick:


I'll be marching with you guys as well after I finish helping Kerry win.

Sincerely,

A draft age kid

[Killarney]

67. As long as they vote for him in November, they can do whatever they want.

But anyone that doesn't vote for Kerry in November will have the blood of whoever is killed during Bush's second term on THEIR hands.

[Andy_Stephenson]

84. Ok by that reasoning then...if you vote for Kerry and

he does not pull out of Iraq...then you will have the blood on your hands, of whoever is killed during his reign...right? :shrug:

[Beacho]

69. I probably won't protest

But I'm not sitting in the back of the bus just because Bush is gone.

I intend to continue my activism within the democratic party and keep pounding on the DLC types and the party apparatchniks.

Kerry getting elected is just the beginning.

I suggest everyone pace themselves for the long haul

[pacifictiger]

70. glad to hear you will remain actively voicing your opinion.

Thats what makes democracy work with people figuring out how to mesh differing ideas to acheive the best outcome for the many.
And it's not just for us anymore, instant travel and communication means the entire planet. The problem is we were all too busy partying to notice the theocon takeover and international manipulations during the past couple of decades. Now we have to work extra hard to detox the corporate military addicts and dismantle their power structure - thankfully the internet has enabled us to learn and communicate our ideas.

[corporatewhore]

73. Why wait? hell alotta my friends are going to protest in boston for the

Dem convention and then are marching ten miles a day to go to NYC to protest the repug con

[tom_paine]

74. That's a bunch of crap

When we kick Emperor* Bunnypants* out of the Imperial Palace and it becomes the White House again we should:

1) Celebrate like Paris during the 1944 Liberation.

2) Fumigate the stench of Tyranny out of the furniture and the draperies.

[Zorra]

87. I agree. On Jan21st, I am going to have the most pleasant hangover

of my life.

We're going to have to fumigate the stench of tyranny out of our entire country.

And who knows? What if.....

"From the moment I take office, I will stand up to the special interests and stand with hardworking families so that we can give America back its future and its ideals." John Kerry

[Guava Jelly]

89. are we doing the work of Nader

and his extreme purist far left election handing to Bush blind followers.
Who would rather see bush get reselected by voting for Nader and not helping by adding their voice to defeat Bush.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to decieve'..sir walter raliegh

[friendofbenn]

90. look at his voting record before you get overly negative

kerry will be a better president than clinton was but he'll still need his feet holding to the fire. he's a politician after all

[Misinformed01]

91. I think it's amazing that people know what they are going to be

doing in Jan.

I can't figure out this morning.

[indigobusiness]

92. Are you a true patriot?

http://www.cafeshops.com/indigobusiness

...then spread the word.