Berg , ABU GHRAIB & Photos?

[Tinoire]

Something is very, very strange...

-------------------------

From: "oldtowerguy" <oldtowerguy@y...>
Date: Wed May 12, 2004 12:49 pm
Subject: About Nick Berg


John and group. I copied this message from another board. John, I
believe you know which one. I thought this was a great insight to the
young man and his dedication. It was written by Mark Humphry.

Gary

BEGIN:
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 12:35:16 -0400
From: "Mark Humphrey" <mark@y...>
Subject: Remembering Nick (was Why was Nick in Iraq?)

The tragic news about Nick Berg's murder hit very close to home, as I
had known him for about two years and we hired him for several
recent projects -- in fact, he installed an auxiliary antenna for WPLY in
February, just before heading back to Iraq. Perhaps I can shed some
light on this situation.

<snip>

Why did he go to Iraq?

He was aware that some towers were damaged last year during bombing
missions, and many more had been looted... copper lines removed,
diagonal members taken out, etc. Few obstruction lighting systems
were functional -- he mentioned an 800 foot tower two miles from an
airport (used by our military) that was totally dark. So he first went over
in December to see if he could help to assist in the reconstruction,
restore Iraq's broadcast services, and repair the serious structural
damage that endangered the lives of their citizens.

I received the following email message from Nick in early January:

>About Iraq-

>I am taking photos - where allowed. It's actually pretty sad - I just
>got off one of two 320 meter monster towers in Abu Gharib (also home
>to the main political prison) which use to support most of Baghdad
>area's VHF and UHF.
>Both have been badly looted, including 4000 feet or more of flexible
>6-1/8" heliax, two full 12X4 panel TV antennas, and even some
>structural members. I was also in the North as I mentioned, but here there
>wasn't as much damage. I'll definitely share some of these pix with
>you and others next time I'm in the area - I'd love to put together a
>little presentation for SBE or PAB in about six monthes after I've
>been on every site and fixed some of them.

He returned to Philadelphia in late January to catch up on some
domestic business -- then in early February, tackled an antenna
replacement job at our aux site, which he had quoted last summer.

<snip>

If you've been following all sides of this story, you may have read
that his parents did not receive much cooperation from OUR Federal
Government when trying to learn his whereabouts, which is very
disturbing. He had reportedly booked a March 30 flight back to New
York, but missed it because he had been detained by our military.
Today's "spin" on the story is that they told him to get out, but I'm
not buying that.

Let's keep his family in our thoughts and prayers. Our industry (and
humanity) has lost a very fine person.

Mark

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Tower-pro/message...

============================

Berg was inspecting communications facilities, some of which were destroyed in the war or by looters.

During his time in Iraq, he struggled with the Arabic language and worked at night on a tower in Abu Ghraib, a site of repeated attacks on U.S. convoys and the location of the notorious prison where U.S. soldiers abused Iraqi inmates.

His father, Michael Berg, told the AP that Michael's sister, now dead, married an Iraqi man named Mudafer, who became close to Nicholas. In one of the e-mails, Nicholas Berg describes going to the northern city of Mosul, where he introduced himself to Mudafer's brother, identified as Moffak Mustaffa.

''We got along splendidly,'' Berg wrote. ''We spent a few hours and I helped him establish an e-mail account.''

* * *
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/133/world/Questions_sur...

[Dying Eagle]

1. Political Murder?

We know Bush is evil, but.........

[lostnfound]

55. That kind of decision wouldn't get done at his level...

but he and Rummy and Ashcroft have set the tone for human rights.

Someone could have decided he was a problem, and handed him back over to the Iraqi 'police' -- or former Baathists / Saddam's men.
Or to Chalabi's people. Or to mercenaries (think School of the Americas trainees.)

[goodhue]

2. Thanks, Tinoire

One wonders about the subject of the photos. Note that he indicates he took photos in Abu Ghraib where allowed, which begs the quesiton who was doing the allowing.

[Tinoire]

5. That's what he indicated

and even allowing that's true (we have no reason to think otherwise), how would the FBI know that? At a time that Bush may be going out in a huge scandal over torture photos at that same prison?

We know for a fact per Taguba's report & soldiers' testimony that things happened in the courtyard of that prison.

It's also very unfortunate that on 3/7/04 Free Republic had that hate thread listing his father as an Enemy-of-the-State for having signed one of ANSWER's petitions in support of the Palestinians & they were having fun turning people in to the FBI for un-American activities.

I will bet money that this is why the FBI interrogated him for 2 weeks. Interrogated his parents demanding to know what his purpose was in Iraq. It also explains why the first story from May 8 had a bizarre reference to the fact that he hadn't signed a privacy waiver.

I could be wrong, that's just the way I'm connecting the dots...

[goodhue]

11. absent some other explanation for the detention

your connections make as much sense as anything else.

As an aside, what exactly is the FBI doing in Iraq?
How do they relate to CIA activities there?
When the military refers to "OGA" does it necassirly mean CIA or could it refer to FBI?
Is the FBI involved in interrogating detainees in Iraq?

[Tinoire]

17. OGA = Other Government Agencies

It refers to all & any of them... Even the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service is considered an OGA. It's just slang. They seem to have been very involved in the interrogations.

From Frederick's testimony, we have

Frederick says Americans came into the prison: We had military intelligence, we had all kinds of other government agencies, FBI, CIA ... All those that I didn't even know or recognize."

I have NO idea what the FBI is doing in Iraq; my only explanation is that they consider it US territory

They've been there for a while. Right now it seems intel is one big clusterfuck just like intel inside Abu Ghraib was with everyone everywhere. All good men to the defense of the nation I guess

====

The FBI in Iraq is trying to determine who is responsible
for the deadly truck bombing at the UN headquarters in Baghdad

B A G H D A D, Iraq, Aug. 20— Iraq's ruling council said today it received warnings of an attack before Tuesday's bombing of the U.N. headquarters in Baghdad, and FBI investigators found evidence the explosive device was packed with military munitions.

FBI agents led the hunt in Iraq today to identify those responsible for detonating an explosives-packed truck outside the U.N. offices. The blast killed at least 20 people, including the U.N. special representative for Iraq, Sergio Vieira de Mello.

<snip>

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/GoodMorningAmerica...

[RapidCreek]

27. Gee I wonder where that film went?

I'm sure the FBI/MI that "didn't detain him"...let's reiterate that MILITARY INTELLEGENCE....you know, the folks who were really in charge of the Gitmoizing of ABU GHRAIB, haven't got a clue.

RC

[markses]

32. Abu Ghraib is a suburb of Baghdad

Do you have any evidence he was in the prison complex?

[RapidCreek]

38. Jesus H. Christ...

He was atop a 960 foot tower!!! Do I have to explain 6 grade geometry to you? How do you make it through a meal without stiking a fork in your eye!

RC

[markses]

39. First of all

This is a personal attack, and beneath you:

How do you make it through a meal without stiking a fork in your eye!

You don't like the message, address it. Here's the message, in case you missed it:

People have been claiming that Mr. Berg was working within the prison complex. This email does not prove any such thing. Now, whether Mr. Berg was taking photos of abuse in a prison complex while on top of this 960 foot tower is a matter I'll leave to the Euclid's of the world to determine. My point was very simple: This email says that Mr. Berg was not in the prison for work. Unless there is other evidence that he was in the prison for work, we can at least start from this point, and you can break out your protractor from there. Yeah?

[RapidCreek]

41. Is it?

It's a question and a valid one at that. What's beneath me is addressing you any further. I haven't seen anyone claim that he was working within the prison complex. I've read posts which stated he was working in Abu Gharib. It doesn't take Euclid to deduce that a person atop a 960 foot tower equipped with a telephoto lens mounted camera could see and take pictures of ground activity for miles around. You do know what a reconnaissance plane/chopper is and does, don't you? You know...they fly..way high up in the air and take pictures! Golly...I wonder if it took Euclid to point out the technical advantages of such a truly ingenious endeavor before it was implemented.

RC

[markses]

43. Now you're just being silly

I've already stated what my sole claim is, so for you to continue on with this nonsense about geometry serves no other purpose than pumping up your strange ego. I readily admit that Mr. Berg could, in principle, have seen clearly into part of the prison complex given the right conditions (light). Since I was never disputing that, your insults are completely beside the point.

I am establishing here, for the record with respect to this circulated email, that it DOES NOT state that Mr. Berg was in the prison complex for work. Whether you've seen arguments to that effect is inconsequential. We should not see any future arguments making that point based on this email.

[markses]

31. No evidence he was in Abu Ghraib Prison for any reason

In fact, your post indicates otherwise.

[markses]

30. Abu Ghraib is a suburb of Baghdad, not just a prison complex

Nothing in his email indicates that he was in the prison at Abu Ghraib for any purpose whatsoever.

[Tinoire]

51. Markses, you're being deliberately obtuse

Pull out a map of the prison & the towers and do a little research on the cameras they use before proceeding to the next chapter of apologetics please.

Either that or read more instead of just butting in with these lame Hannity-type rebuttals.

I have trouble conversing with someone who resorts to

"Nothing in his email indicates that he was in the prison"

No one ever said "in" except you. If you can't follow the story properly and stick to the facts - and words- presented, how seriously do you expect your arguments to be taken?

[markses]

57. Actually, people have suggested he was in the prison

However, I am not sure 1) why you are all so hostile to this simple observation and 2) why I am taken to be offering apologetics.

If anything, you should thank me for explicitly stating the conditions of the story so that everyone is starting from the same place. What is the problem on this thread? I state what you apparently take for a FACT, and you jump down my throat? Relax.

That said: the cameras "they" use? Who?

ONCE AGAIN. I am trying to nail down basic facts, just like you. What do you mean here?

[The empressof all]

3. Mmmmmmmmmmmmm (NT)

kick

[Nlighten1]

4. Is it possible that he was caught taking some pictures of the abuse?

And they offed him to keep it quiet?

[Tinoire]

6. I don't think he even had to be caught to be in trouble

Just having been seen with a camera around the place would be enough as desperate as these guys are.

If he had taken photos (that they found), they wouldn't have needed 2 weeks worth of interrogations nor would they have released him.

If he was caught taking photos of the abuse... well, yeah, I think you'd be a dead man.

[PaDUer]

23. Our local 11PM news tonite

said that he worked on some towers for station WPGM radio in the surrounding communities. They had an interview w/ a friend of his who said that he believes he was targeted because he wore a star of David around his neck that they would know he was Jewish.--FWIW

[markses]

34. First you'd have to establish that he was even near the prison complex

Which Tinoire's post does not do.

[Tinoire]

7. Kick

[Must_B_Free]

8. Crazy, but

has anyone compared the "fat guys" from the prison picture with 8 guards and 3 detainees handcuffed together with the "fat guy" burg murderer?

[Must_B_Free]

9. And another one -

I won't watch the video, but, unlike English, Arabic is read from right to left.

Any possibility of telling from head or eye movements if the murderer who read the statement is reading right to left?

[T Bone]

45. good question!! must b free

were Berg's murderers reading the statement from left to right or right to left---might be hard to discern.

[FreakinDJ]

10. Berg murder reminds me of Death Squads

ABC news said today FBI officials had offered Berg a flight home but he refused it. Doesn't seem right the last contact his family receives is Berg saying he is going to have to take the long way home, (through Jordan)

The Video is released on a web site. All the rest of the Osama / Taliban tapes so far have been delivered via 3rd party to Aljizzera News.

The recent report of the "Supposed terrorist attack at the empty UN building in Jordan. That didn't make too much sense either but it does make a good case that this is the work of the same death squad.

Hammil being given a cake walk out of captivity. He escaped not once but twice. Like they were trying to let him go but they were paid off by Haliburton to make it look good

No...some think WREAKs in the Berg case

By NO MEANS DO I THINK WE HAVE HEARD THE LAST OF THIS

[notadmblnd]

14. Not only did he escape twice..

the kidnappers waited around for the army to come and arrest them. I find that kind of odd.

[0007]

60. I've thought about the Hammil comparison also.

Hammil had perhaps only labor skills, where Berg was high tech.

It appears to me that Berg had something that someone wanted. Both physical and mental. Berg was not going to relinquish the physical entity to anyone. When Berg was offered a plane by the State Department to leave Iraq Berg refused. Why? I believe he knew he wasn't safe.

A Part from the video the sequence of events are highly questionable.
I watched the video and many questions arise. The Orange jump suit. The demeanor of the terrorist. The blurriness of the video along with the video speed leave much desired to call it authentic.

The information in Berg's head is gone along with the rest of what Berg had. What happened to his computer? Did someone else receive what knowledge Berg had? Is the FBI interested more in Berg's e-mails to his parents than Mr. Berg?

[0007]

63. btt

[FlaGranny]

76. One thing that ALWAYS makes me

suspicious is when a video is very poor quality. Have you ever watched American's Funniest Videos or the Worlds Funniest Animals (or whatever those shows are called)? Every video is filmed by amateurs, and I have yet to see one of such poor quality as those that come out of these places, even those that you can tell have been recopied. It seems to me that they are poor quality on purpose. If it is on purpose, then whey is it on purpose?

[Generator]

12. Here's a very good link to a summary

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=2...


Mystery surrounded not only Nicholas Berg's disappearance but also why he had been held by Iraqi police for about two weeks and questioned by FBI agents three times. Berg's family disputed U.S. officials' claims that Berg was never in U.S. custody.

"The Iraqi police do not tell the FBI what to do, the FBI tells the Iraqi police what to do. Who do they think they're kidding?" Berg's father, Michael, told The Associated Press from his home in West Chester, Pa., a Philadelphia suburb.

[goodhue]

15. speaking of links to summaries

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Minstrel Boy]

13. Remember Reuters cameraman Mazen Dana?

Late yesterday afternoon (Sunday 17 August), Reuters cameramen Mazen Dana was shot and killed while working near a U.S.-run prison (Abu Ghraib) on the outskirts of Baghdad.
http://about.reuters.com/pressoffice/pressreleases/inde...

His last pictures show a US tank driving towards Dana outside the prison walls. Several shots ring out from the tank, and Dana's camera falls to the ground.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/08/18/1061059745...

Mazen Dana, the Award winning Reuters camera man, shot dead by US troops whilst filming outside Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison in August - with full permission and press accreditation from the US Authorities in Baghdad - told his brother Nazmi, a chilling tale days before he died.

"Mazen told me by phone few days before his death that he discovered a mass grave dug by U.S. troops to conceal the bodies of their fellow comrades killed in Iraqi resistance attacks," Nazmi said.

"He also told me that he found U.S. troops covered in plastic bags in remote desert areas and he filmed them for a TV program. We are pretty sure that the American forces had killed Mazen knowingly to prevent him from airing his finding."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ARB311A.html

[LibertyorDeath]

54. This is an amazing story.

Mazen told me by phone few days before his death that he discovered a mass grave dug by U.S. troops to conceal the bodies of their fellow comrades killed in Iraqi resistance attacks," Nazmi said.

"He also told me that he found U.S. troops covered in plastic bags in remote desert areas and he filmed them for a TV program

Wow.

[uncle ray]

16. sorry to distract but

follow the link to the yahoo tower email list, and read message 19473 in response, damn freepers! another NUKE EM ALL post if you don't want to waste your time.

snip-


I would suggest possibly writing your congressmen to put an immediate stop
to any hearings regarding mistreatment to iraqi POW's . Their humiliation
just pales in contrast to a televised decapitation. I believe that some
people only understand violence.

Had I been president , mecca or another holy moslem city would have been
nuked. So let's all be thankful I'm not president.

Thanks for letting me vent.

dave firis.


snip-

[Tinoire]

18. I saw that... There were a few others. Bunch of idiots

Some were even saying we should leave it and/or nuke it.

On edit but at least 1 did come out very strongly and say he'd been against the war from the start...

[maryallen]

19. Over at the Kos blog ...

From the "for what it's worth column:"

Someone posted information from a Russian blogspot. The Russian watched the Berg video and said that sometime during the film, one of the terrorists spoke in Russian.

The posters on Kos were speculating whether one of the perps could have been Russian or, possibly, Chechen.

[Tinoire]

21. Strange because

I've been thinking about the Chechens a LOT lately. Been thinking about them since 9-11 as a matter of fact. Trouble is I haven't been paying much attention to them but the thought gently nags.

I have a good friend who speaks Russian but she didn't notice that when we watched the video... Then again we weren't really listening to the Allah-ha-allah blah blah in there and had the volume rather low. Do you have a link to that blog? I'd like to ask her to go back and listen but it would be easier if she knew when to listen.

Peace

[starroute]

22. Here's a quote posted on another thread

The terrorists in Berg's beheading video are communicating to each other in Russian ! One of them tells to the executioner who was cutting Berg's head: "Davay pozhivee !" meaning "Do it quicker !", or "Hurry up !" in pure unaccented Russian. Initially, I thought I was the only one who noticed it, but other Russian speakers confirmed it as well independently from me. So, who actually killed Berg ? BTW, "Allah o Akbar" they pronounce not with Arabic, but with a Russian-like accent. Also, their demeanor was not Arabic at all, but resembles that of people from the North Caucasus. Those were not Arabs ! "

[General Discontent]

26. Holy Shit

I have been following this story since it broke and there sure is something "amazingly coincedental" about it. /sarcasm. What pegged my bullshit meter was watching Nightline on ABC last night and they showed the Taguba before the Senate and one of the senators was interupted with some "very disturbing news." The whole tone of the precedings changed instantly, puctuated by Imhofe's "outrage at the outrage." Some timing, eh?

How weird is his detainment by the FBI? And then this comes out .....

WTF?

So, I agree with you, Tinoire... On this thread and the others over the last 2 days. What did this kid see that that got him killed? How very un-coincidental that he was doing work near and mentions Abu-Gharaib in his email. Just say the right words to the right people, and the deed is done.

There are some sick fuckers running around thinking they are patriots...
beginning at the White House. My prayers and sympathies are for his family.


PS. Thanks tinoire for your excellent posts the last two days. You are always on top of it.


DWolfman

[RapidCreek]

33. I'm wondering if the email he sent passed through a Haliburton

server. That may very well have been the tip off that got him killed.

RC

[General Discontent]

46. Good Point

n/t

[Tinoire]

49. Thanks... It's my true pleasure for this excellent company! n/t

[On the Road]

68. Russian-Speaking -- Could They Have Been Chechens?

lots of soldier-of-fortune-types from that area.

[Cassandra]

20. Picked this up through Buzzflash

What do you make of it?
http://www.breakfornews.com/NickBergEnemiesList.htm
"
But there are much graver aspects to all this. Another chilling perspective is best summarized by the wry cynicism of Michael Rivero at WhatReallyHappened.com

In a commentary on the beheading of Nick Berg, Rivero writes:

"How wonderfully lucky for Bush and the NeoCons that such a great piece of pro-war distract-from-the-torture-scandal event happens at this particular moment."

Rivero's world-weary realism strikes a chord with his popular website's visitors, but will undoubtedly shock unseasoned observers. However he is far from alone in questioning the official line. Others have noted the too-white hands and military at-ease stance of the hooded captors in the video.

The killing has certainly eased the international discomfiture of the US."

[Tinoire]

25. It is quite "convenient" for Bush

Too "convenient" to chalk up to a lucky break especially with all these inconsistencies.

The boys are panicking, they're like rats running around on the deck of a burning ship and not taking the time to refine their newest projects.

What do you make of it after all you've read?

The FR Enemies-of-the-State post is frightening!

[thecrow]

24. OMG

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20040513/D82HEED00.htm...

I just read this and there seem to inconsistancies coming out in the news. Forgive me for posting a lot of this here; I just don't want it to "disappear".

What do you think?

<snip>

However, in a Jan. 18 e-mail, Berg said his company had been announced as an approved subcontractor for a broadcast consortium awarded a contract for the U.S.-controlled Iraqi Media Network.

"Practically, this means we should be involved with quite a bit of tower work as part of the reconstruction, repair and new construction of the Iraqi Media Network," he wrote, referring to the network as "something like NPR in the U.S."

<snip>

However, Senor said Iraqi police arrested Berg in Mosul on March 24 because local authorities believed he may have been involved in "suspicious activities."

Senor refused to say more, citing the sensitivity of the case. But he did confirm that the Americans were aware Berg was in custody.

"U.S. authorities were notified," he said. "The FBI visited Mr. Berg on three occasions and determined that he was not involved with any criminal or terrorist activity."

In a statement, the FBI said that its agents "encouraged him to accept (the) ... offer to facilitate his safe passage out of Iraq. Mr. Berg refused these offers."

Berg was released April 6 and checked into the Baghdad hotel.

Senor referred questions about the reason for Berg's detention to the Iraqi police. In Mosul, however, police told the AP they had no knowledge of the Berg case. Police official Safwan Talal said the only American arrested there in recent months was a woman who was released soon afterward.

Since Iraq remains under U.S. military occupation, it seems unlikely that the Iraqi police would have held Berg, or any other American, for such a length of time without at least the tacit approval of U.S. authorities.

Berg told his family that U.S. officials took custody of him soon after his arrest and he was not allowed to make phone calls or contact a lawyer, his father said.

Kimmitt said U.S. forces kept tabs on Berg during his confinement to make sure he was being fed and properly treated because "he was an American citizen."

But the three FBI visits suggest American authorities were concerned about more than Berg's well-being. They may have had their own suspicions about what the young American was doing in Iraq.

During a briefing Wednesday, Senor confirmed that Berg had registered with the U.S. Consulate in Baghdad but insisted he "was not a U.S. government employee, he has no affiliation with the coalition and to our knowledge he has no affiliation with any Coalition Provisional Authority contractor."

He also stated that Berg "was at no time under the jurisdiction or detention of coalition forces."

However, in a Jan. 18 e-mail, Berg said his company had been announced as an approved subcontractor for a broadcast consortium awarded a contract for the U.S.-controlled Iraqi Media Network.

"Practically, this means we should be involved with quite a bit of tower work as part of the reconstruction, repair and new construction of the Iraqi Media Network," he wrote, referring to the network as "something like NPR in the U.S."

It was unclear whether the contract was revoked.

FBI agents visited Berg's parents March 31 and told the family they were trying to confirm their son's identity.

On April 5, the Bergs sued the government in U.S. District Court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally. The Bergs claimed the State Department told them their son "is currently detained in Mosul, Iraq, by the United States military" and that American diplomats "no longer" had "any authority or power to intervene" on his behalf.

Berg was released the day after the lawsuit was filed. His family said he told them he had not been mistreated. They did not hear from him after April 9 - when violence flared in Iraq because of the U.S. Marine siege of Fallujah and a Shiite uprising in the south.

Several days later, however, diplomats received an e-mail from Berg's family that "noted he had not been in contact," Shannon said.

On April 14, the consulate sent a private contractor to the Al-Fanar Hotel in Baghdad, where Berg was believed to be staying, to see if he was still there.

"The people we talked to at the hotel didn't remember him being there," Shannon said.

Diplomats then alerted the U.S. military to be on the lookout for him.

But hotel staffers, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Berg stayed in room 602 from April 6 until April 10. One of them said Berg lived in the same room during an earlier visit, which the employee could not remember.

[PaDUer]

28. I read in another article

that his aunt, who's now dead, was married to an Iraqi, and that he went there and introduced himself to the brother of the husband, and they supposedly got along very well and had a good time together.
What could've went wrong? Who really was that uncle?

[Kool Kitty]

35. This is too strange.

I'm glad that you posted this, because it mentions that the FBI offered him safe passage out of Iraq and he chose not to take them up on the offer. I had heard it mentioned on a newsbreak on MSNBC, but I couldn't find a link for it. This morning, the FBI says that they don't know anything about him and they never had him in custody. Then they say that they had him and offered him a ride home. What the fuck does all this mean? And why was he wearing an orange prison jumpsuit? (I don't know why that bothers me, but it does. Did his captors just happen to have an orange jumpsuit for him to wear?) I don't understand any of this. And the Freerepublic angle just makes this more bizarre.

[Tinoire]

48. Several strange things in that piece, I agree

involved in "suspicious activities."....sensitivity of the case Photos from the Abu Ghaibr tower?? I can honestly think of nothing else & certainly nothing more explosive especially after the Freepers had probably turned his father & company's name in to the FBI (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1092851/posts )


The FBI visited Mr. Berg on three occasions According to the family it was constant - IOW they really wanted something.

"encouraged him to accept (the) ... offer to facilitate his safe passage out of Iraq. Mr. Berg refused these offers." No shit. If I had been picked up. illegally detained & grilled by Ashcroft's goons (and my family interrogated also), I'd refuse any kind offer to "facilitate" my "safe" passage especially after it was known that I had taken photos from the Abu Ghaibr tower.

So much in there and I' sorry but my brain is so tired right now.. Note the hotel part. The hotel employees were helping him hide from the FBI because there was another article about the State Department sending someone to that hotel to look for him and the hote employees pretending they had never heard of him or that he was long gone (versions vary).

To me so many things indicate that Berg was scared. Scared of the US.

I'll come back tomorrow. Peace Good info in there!

[markses]

29. Y'all know that Abu Ghraib is a suburb of Baghdad

And that the prison is in the Abu Ghraib "suburb" in the same way, say, the Brooklyn House of detention is in downtown Brooklyn, yeah?

In fact, this email from Mr. Berg changes the story quite a bit. It appears that he was not working on a tower within the Abu Ghraib Prison complex, but rather a tower in the Abu Ghraib suburb more generally. Otherwise, why would he say

"I just got off one of two 320 meter monster towers in Abu Gharib (also home to the main political prison)..."

Ande, as far as I know, there wouldn't be 320 Meter (!no wonder he wrote home about it: that's HUGE!) towers within the prison complex. So, that solves that mystery. I assume that we'll no longer see posters claiming that Mr. Berg worked inside Abu Ghraib prison, at least until they produce some other source for that information!

[RapidCreek]

36. That's 960 feet chief

tell you what. You climb up a tower 960 feet tall on a dead flat desert and tell me you cant see EVERYTHING on the ground five miles in every direction... Seeing as how the curvature of the earth fails to impede line of sight views inside a 20 mile diameter, I'd say that being 960 feet in the fucking air particularily with a camera that very well may have had a telephoto lens makes those views quite a bit easier to take pictures of.

I'm sure there wouldn't have been 320 meter towers inside of a prison complex....I'd hazard to guess they'd be within view however. Possibly quite close, since they were owned by the same government that owned the prison. How about you? I can look out my window and see 3 towers quite clearly that are 15 miles away. With my doubler and 500 millimeter lens I have clearly seen guys working on them. Your beligerance is quite telling.


RC

[markses]

40. I'd like you to point to my belligerence in this thread

Please show me where I was being belligerent. I can point to yours in post 38; I already have, in fact.

My point was simple: This email does not prove Mr. Berg was in the prison complex. Whether Mr. Berg was taking pictures of the prison complex and goings on therein from his lofty perch is another story altogether, and not one that I addressed. Since we're on it, however, I could think of a few things that would block his line of sight, like roofs. That's just me though. I wouldn't dare speculate on whether Mr. berg was up on this 960 foot tower with a telephoto lens, because it seems to be something I can't know. Nor would I speculate about what time of day or night Mr. Berg made his climb. However, I can know this, and so can you: This email does not indicate that Mr. Berg was in the Abu Ghraib prison complex. In fact, it implies that he wasn't.

[RapidCreek]

44. You've been derisive and belligerent on this issue for

the last 28 hours...and I'm not going to waste my time pointing to all of it.

Indeed...we do not know if Mr. Berg was taking pictures of the prison complex....evidently the Iraqi police MI and the FBI didn't either...which is a damn good reason why they may have had him in detention for two fucking weeks.

What difference does it make whether he was in the complex or not? If he had a clear view of who was entering or leaving the complex at any particular time...that in and of itself could quite possibly get him into serious trouble. He need not necessarily view an act of torture.

Suffice it to say, I've had experience with MI and they ain't exactly above pulling some real heinous shit. Particularily when they're covering their asses.

RC

[markses]

47. Oh, you must have missed my statement on that

Here it is:

First, I'd like to apologize to all those who were trying to formulate an answer last night to the grisly murder of Mr. Berg. I admit here that the visual so moved me that I was rash, and insulted several of those who were speculating on these events by valuing that speculation negatively. Namely, I labelled it a breach of decorum, and called those participating in such speculation "hobbyists." This was wrong of me. The speculations were often serious and informed, and were - for the most part - aimed at making sense of the event. It was more a reflection on my horror of the action than it was a legitimate judgment of those thinking through it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

That was posted at 9:53 this evening, long before your bizarre tirade. However, I can understand how my posts last night may have colored your view of my point here.

In any case, that remains a pretty loose speculative scenario. I'll not address it, since I had a fairly limited purpose to my argument here, and Mr. Berg taking photos of important and secret people coming in or out of the prison complex and MI or the CIA finding out about this and tracking Mr. Berg down on that basis all fall outside the scope of that. I've already stated my limited point about what this email reveals, so that's that.

[diamondsoul]

69. It doesn't matter if he was IN the complex.

because of the visibility factor with a good telephoto lens and a camera, but let's go with your premise, that he wasn't photographing the prison or incidents inside of it-

Ok, but do you think the prisoners who were abused in the prison were magically teleported there? Of course not, they were picked up by US forces off the streets, most likely some within Mr. Berg's view while he was atop those towers.

Sorry if I sound nasty here, because I do understand your point, but man, you can't tell me this whole thing isn't extremely suspicious, can you?

[markses]

70. You read a hell of a lot into my posts here

1) I never said it the whole situation was not suspicious. In fact, I have said it is suspicious and quite strange all around. To wit:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

2) As I've stated again and again, I had only one point here: This email does not indicate that Mr. Berg was in Abu Ghraib prison doing work. That is a fact. Why a wellspring of hostility has sprung up as a result of me stating that fact is not clear to me, but I suspect it has something to do with a siege mentality on the part of some people on this board. Whatever. Not my problem.

2) I'd expect that a whole slew of people can now be turned into "witnesses" if your criterion for who is a witness is somebody who saw people picked up by US forces and transported. Hell, I've seen that on TV. OK. I jest.

Just to review, one of the possible narrative goes like this:

A. Mr. Berg has an opportunity to inspect several of the 320 m tall broadcast towers in Abu Ghraib just west of Baghdad (established fact)

B. Mr. Berg takes some pictures while in Iraq. At least some of these pictures will be of interest to a former client, as well as the Society for Broadcast Engineers and the Pennsylvania Association of Broadcasters (established fact).

C. Mr. Berg has a (c.1)telephoto lens or (c.2) digital camera (not established, but given Mr. Berg's profession in technologies, and his upper middle class status, at least (c.2) is highly probable.

D. While on one of the Abu Ghraib towers, Mr. Berg uses his camera to take photographs of the surroundings, including the prison (not established at all; however, it is probable that a normal person would take landscape shots of a foreign country when elevated at a significant height...the email does not indicate that Mr. Berg "went to the top" of a tower).

---BEGIN SPECULATION---

E. At least one of these photographs captured something that the US government and its agents wanted to keep secret. Either he was spotted photographing something, or he told somebody that he had photographed something, or - as one poster has speculated - his emails may have been monitored through a server run by Halliburton, and he was thus tangled in the web.

F. These agents tracked down Mr. Berg, and caused the events to unfold leading to his decapitation (supposing this occured at all).

Is that a fair summary of where y'all are on this thread?

[T Bone]

50. I wonder if any of the newly suppressed photos from Abu Gharib are

photos of the prison courtyard and entrances from a 960 foot tower?

You know suddenly now there are photos just too horrible to show because they might cause more beheadings.

[RapidCreek]

72. Yea you kinda have to wonder don't you

RC

[Must_B_Free]

political prison?

I thought democracy didn't have political prisons?

[Ani Yun Wiya]

52. Not really a Suburb...

More like an industrial zone, the towers are also quite close to the prison. Like this:



Not quite like Brooklyn, more like Wyoming.

[markses]

58. You'll notice I put "suburb"

in quotation marks in my post there. Clearly, I don't think that we're talking about Levittown here!

I'd love to be taught a little about that map. Could you explain it for me, as I am having a tough time deciphering it. That said, I'm only interested for edification's sake, since the point really has nothing to do with my posts. They were very specific and limited about what they were attempting to establish, and I've gone over this ad nauseum at this point, in the face of the most bizarre interpretive hostility.

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[markses]

42. What does the email actually say?

I am taking photos - where allowed. It's actually pretty sad - I just got off one of two 320 meter monster towers in Abu Gharib (also home to the main political prison) which use to support most of Baghdad area's VHF and UHF. Both have been badly looted, including 4000 feet or more of flexible 6-1/8" heliax, two full 12X4 panel TV antennas, and even some structural members. I was also in the North as I mentioned, but here there wasn't as much damage. I'll definitely share some of these pix with you and others next time I'm in the area - I'd love to put together a little presentation for SBE or PAB in about six monthes after I've been on every site and fixed some of them.

It is not clear what these pictures are of. Some of them may be of interest to his occasional client, and he'd also like to share some with the following organizations:

SBE - Society of Broadcast Engineers
http://www.sbe.org /

PAB - Pennsylvania Association of Broadcasters
http://www.pab.org /

These pictures are clearly of towers themselves. That's all he really says here.

[althecat]

53. Tinoire, very strange indeed .. but how about this for an explanation...

Tinoire,

I too have been struggling with this case. There are so many things that make it seem fishy..

OTOH I also find it very hard to comprehend that even black ops would do something as mad as this beheading. Encourage someone else perhaps, but actually do.

Feeling somewhat troubled I have come up with a way that I can think about it without getting too upset. I started another thread here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

To discuss it.

Your latest discovery - regarding he having been in the vincinity of the scene of the crime - ads even more to the crazyness of this story. Perhaps that is why he was arrested? Because he got too close to the scene of the crime?

al

[Tinoire]

64. Hey Al, I book-marked your thread to go to it this afternoon.

I'm swamped with rent-paying work right now and have to focus on that. I read it this morning and liked it but can't give you any serious comments until this evening. The rent is calling

[althecat]

71. Cool..... rent is always calling :)

[FreakinDJ]

56. Digital camera on top of towers

with in site of the prison

With digital and optical zoom he could be quite damaging to any one trying to bury a story. Now we have some that say some of the perps spoke Russian in the video amist all the stories.

The original denial from the FBI that they were holding him speaks volumes. Especially when the White House is in full cover up mode from the torture scandle brewing on capitol hill

[notadmblnd]

61. This needs to be looked at too

talks about the beheading video and who owns the website it's posted on.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Karenina]

62. It ALL

stinks to high heaven. Next up: Satanic rituals in the *MIC. :SIGH:

[Tinoire]

65. Even without having photographed anything damaging

The mere thought that the son of an "Enemy of the State" was on a tower at Abu-Ghaibr with a digital camera, when news of the investigations first leaked, would be enough to send Rumsfeld into an absolute panic.

Berg could have been photographing the sun and they would have been in a panic.

"Digital cameras on the battlefield messing everything up! (TM)" Rumsfeld by MoPaul

[King_Crimson]

59. Kick...

[mainer]

66. If Berg was already dead at the beheading...

Could it be he died during interrogation? What if his death was unintentional? Or during an escape attempt?

So there his interrogators are, with an unexpectedly dead body, and they think: Hmmm. How do we get some bang outta this buck? By turning it into a propaganda tool?

You don't have to postulate that black ops murdered him. Only that they didn't let his death go to waste.

[goodhue]

67. Who Organised the Beheading of Nick Berg – and Why ?

http://www.unobserver.com/layout4.php?id=1663&blz=1

This outrageous action is being condemned by Iraqis and Muslim scholars while it is also being used to encourage a desire for American retaliation.

As a result, questions are already being asked, concerning the identity and purpose of the murderers.

Please read the following reports.

Beheaded Man's Firm Was On Right-Wing 'Enemies' List http://www.breakfornews.com/NickBergEnemiesList.htm

Fishy Circumstances and Flawed Timelines Surround American's Beheading http://www.infowars.com/print/iraq/berg.htm

Iraq militants claim al-Zarqawi is dead http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4446084 /

Iraqis Condemn Beheading Of American Civilian http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2004-05/12/arti...

Al-Azhar Scholars Denounce Berg's Beheading http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2004-05/12/arti...

Arabs react to Berg decapitation http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/3897D0E4-B263-46...

US pledges to catch Berg killers http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3706081.st...

FBI Saw Berg During Iraq Police Detention http://www.aljazeerah.info/News%20archives/2004%20News%...

For those who wish to see photos of the beheading:
Purported Al Qaeda Leader Beheads U.S. Civilian in Iraq http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6172.ht...

[bigtree]

73. Interesting

Good digging Tinoire. Glad to have you on this.

[thecrow]

74. kick

Kick!!!

[bloom]

75. kick

[diamondsoul]

77. A link I got

from another poster at my Kucinich Forum at Delphi-

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/13/politics/13MILL.html

The following could give Berg a reason to have actually been at the Prison, working, and IF he took photos there, the US a reason to snatch him up-

"In one prison yard, a detainee was being held in a scorching hot shipping container as punishment, one team member recalled. An important communications antenna stood broken and unrepaired."

Was Berg hired to repair the antenna and "detained" for photographing the conditions inside the Prison after all?