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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:16 AM
Original message
Lynndie England says she's a scapegoat
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/index.html#mustr...

"Just followed orders"

Lawyers for Army Pfc. Lynndie R. England say she has been a scapegoat for higher-ups who want to shirk responsibility for lawless behavior in U.S. military prisons in Iraq. The Washington Post reports that England's attorneys say she "was ordered by her superiors to pose with naked Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison ... so that the photos could be used to frighten and demoralize other prisoners. 'People told Pfc. England, 'Hold that leash,' told her to smile, so they can show the photos to subsequent prisoners,' said Carl S. McGuire, one member of a team of Denver-area lawyers defending England. The 21-year-old Army reservist, who was photographed holding a leash tied to the neck of a naked prisoner, faces a court-martial on 13 counts of misconduct."

"'They picked her to get the smallest, youngest, lowest-rank woman they could find, and that would increase the humiliation for an Iraqi man,' said Rose Mary Zapor, another member of the Denver-based legal team. In a news conference Monday night, England's attorneys also said that President Bush's public condemnation of the prison guards at Abu Ghraib makes it all but impossible for the accused soldiers to get a fair court-martial."
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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'M A VICTIM!!!!!
WHAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

HELP ME!! HELP ME!!
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GainesT1958 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yeah, that's what all the Nazi concentration camp guards said...
Especially those assigned to herd Jews and others into the gas chambers! :grr:

B-)
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Don't forget the Kapos.
The seductions of authortarianism and coercion are potent.
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. For someone who was "just following orders", Lynndie seemed to enjoy it.
I keep seeing the pictures of her...with the biggest grin on her face.

This is the most pathetic thing I've read today.

Will the tearful appearance on "The Barbara Walters Special" be far behind?
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
4. I have no doubt in my mind that this is true
They don't just go over there in the National Guard with whips and hoods, ect and start doing these things. Someone ordered them to do it--I'm not excusing them but lets not let these grunts take the blame for something which may have been authorized by the CIA or DOD to itimidate prisoners to get them to talk.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. I agree with you.
She's no saint, but she's a small fish and a convenient scapegoat because her image is all over this. If she were male, I doubt she'd be quite so infamous.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. Was she also "ordered" to grin like a Cheshire Cat?
Seems like she was really enjoying carrying out her "orders." :eyes:
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. i'm not excusing her
but don't you believe that this goes higher than a few "bad apples" :eyes:
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
28. Good Point!
Someone had to order all those collars, hoods, and other equipment. Where are the receipts? Follow the money.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
32. I agree she was ordered and is a scapegoat
I also believe she is culpable for her own actions.

What she did was wrong, orders or no orders.

Even as reservists, they should have known what is and is not acceptable treatment of prisoners. This was wrong.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
5. She's a 'fall-guy' not a 'scapegoat.'
She's a (made-)willing tool.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. Good point. Nice distinction.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
34. Well said
but then she will certainly be punished... the key now is to keep the pressure up and go after those who ordered this. From all I've heard over the last week or so, it seems pretty clear that this was part of a wider strategy of interrogation. The officers responsible are the ones who really need to be punished.
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
6. Hers should make an interesting Courts-Martial
The defense is saying that photographs were an accepted form of punishment and humiliation which counters the argument of the rogues blowing off steam. I hope she gets a speedy trial.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
7. I can't believe
I can't believe any RepubliCON higher up would ever pass the buck on to a lowly woman. They are all real men who accept personal responsibility for their actions and the actions of ALL those under their command. I mean, it's embarrassing how everybody from the Commander-in-Chief on down have been fighting to take personal responsibility over the prison torture incident.

(sarcasm off)

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BlueStateGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. Oh, didn't you know that accepting responsibilty means that you
only to have to say you accept responsiblilty?

Responsibility and Donald Rumsefeld have zero in common.



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happynewyear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
9. This is exactly what I stated
In a post several days ago, I stated this - the pictures were taken to frighten and terrify incoming prisoners! Who wouldn't be freaked out if you saw these photos?

I'm no big fan of Ms. England, but I believe she has a solid point no matter what anyone thinks.

Orders are order in the military.
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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
21. What would have happened...
Orders are order in the military.


... if she had simply refused to follow orders?
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #21
40. She would've been courts martialed for failing to follow a direct
order. Then, in the trial she could've brought all this out in the open.
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BlueStateGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
10. She may have been just following orders. But she is culpable.
She deserves to be punished. But she is correct, in the sense that she and the other six low ranking services members are looking at a far harsher punishment than the officers that gave the orders.

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Demonaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
11. she is but she willingly posed for those photo's and the grin was genuine
Edited on Tue May-11-04 11:22 AM by Demonaut
so she is still guilty
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. Just don't forget that someone did order her
and that person may not get punished, as England surely will be.
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Demonaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. thats why I prefaced it with "she is" as she is a scapegoat.
Edited on Tue May-11-04 11:34 AM by Demonaut
and those above her should pay to a greater degree
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mac56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
14. If this is true -
She better start singin' like a canary and naming names.
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chaska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
15. Okay guys, let's understand this.
We don't care about that girl. We want Bush out. It is becoming clear that these soldiers were following orders. Does that excuse their behaviour, probably not. But who cares? The point is that there is a chain of command to follow that leads right to GWB. Forget Lynndie England, we've got bigger fish to fry.

Point two: We don't want to be against the soldiers, they are coming around to our side. The true evil is in Washington.
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
20. Bullshit. Fuck her.
She may well have been "just following orders", but that doesn't excuse her from following illegal/immoral orders. Her shit-eating grin will be her shame that she takes to the grave.

Fuck her.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Alot of them don't have the education to know they don't have to follow
commands.

These soldiers no doubt thought what they were doing was a sanctioned form of interrogation.

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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. Sorry, but I'm not buying it.
"She's just a dumb ol' country gal who dint know no better...."

Poop.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Blame her and you absolve BushInc.
who engineered this situation.
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. No. I hold this entire administration responsible as well.
That doesn't absolve her and her dumb buddies who committed the crimes on camera. There's lots of blame to go around on this one. Rightly so.

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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. Exactly--we need to stop taking the bait.
BushCorp would like nothing more than to portray this whole thing as the work of just a few renegade guardsmen, rather than a policy instituted by the highest officials in the administration. The obsessive focus on Lynndie England and the others shows that it's working, even here, where people should know better.

Should England and the others be punished? Certainly. But it shouldn't stop with them. And acting as though she and the others cooked up this whole thing of their own just falls into Bush's trap. It's like busting the guy who collects the protection money while letting the godfather go free.
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Demonaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. i wonder if she feels shame? or she's just ashamed that she was caught
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
22. She's a really really really convenient scapegoat, too...
... judging from those pictures - it's not going to take a big sell job to make her look bad.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
26. I dont doubt that she followed orders, but she is responsible for her
actions regardless.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Her superiors should be held accountable for their actions
even if they didn't hold the leash or take the pictures. Whoever set the tone that made Abu Ghraib possible should pay in some way, or American justice is even more of a joke than the world thinks it is.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #30
42. I AGREE. I think it should go all the way to the TOP!
Make no mistake bout that.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
27. she`s full of shit
she liked doing what she did..and she`s coming back to her home town where she`s a hero...
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
29. She Seemed to be a Very Willing Scapegoat
but the most important thing is that she seems to be squealing. That's the first step in taking it up the chain of command.
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Cat Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
31. She *is* being used as a scapegoat.
The POW torture is apparently systemic and institutionalized. The problem is much higher up. Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, etc.

The whole ideology of the group, from Bush's swaggering "if the U.N. won't approve it, we'll do it anyway" comments, to Rumsfeld's open disdain for the Geneva Convention, this lawless attitude defines the cause.

Hell, look at Negroponte's appointment to Iraq. His record is much the same. That's probably why they want him there.

So yeah, this woman is a scapegoat. She's a guilty scapegoat who deserves to do hard prison time, but she's a scapegoat nonetheless.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. A scapegoat is someone who takes the full force of people's anger
against something. There's no doubt, as you say, that she's guilty of something. If no grunt had followed the orders, there'd be no war crime to investigate. But the fury people feel toward her is misplaced, I think. The danger is that the monsters who set her up are going to get away with it once she is made to pay for all their crimes. She may or may be a monster herself for actually following the order, but she is far from being the only monster involved here.
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
36. If I were in her situation
I would be doing exactly the same thing. Her lawyers seem to be at least competent, which is more than can be said for some death penalty cases.
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qb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
41. Yes, she's culpable, but she's taking more than her share of the heat
The pictures are part of the military's SOP for "softening up" prisoners. The purpose is to make them as degrading as possible, which is why a woman was ordered to pose with them. Interrogators would then threaten to show them to the men's families.

Sure, she's shit for enjoying it, but what about all of her fellow soldiers whooping and hollering from behind the camera? (Does anyone seriously think they weren't?)

I hope she sings loud and clear and implicates the brass and the mercenaries and the system that encoded this kind of torture.
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Loonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
43. Scumbag lawyers
Her lawyers, not lawyers in general.

Well, not that much, I suppose.
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
44. "just following orders" went out w/nuremberg anyway every one from bush to
her should be locked up
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
45. I believe that would be "SCAPEWOLF"
or something like that.
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PopSixSquish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
47. Was She Just Following Orders When She Had Sex
in front of the prisoners with her boyfriend? Actually don't answer that.

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