Torture: They accuse us of moral relativism

[Michael_UK]

In all the aftermath (actually more in the middle) of the torture scandal, one thing struck me about the debate.

Typically, conservatives rail against the moral relativism of liberals and they're so proud of their absolutism.

I'm not quite clear where I stand on all my moral beliefs, but torture is one of those that is a definite absolute wrong. There's no debate for me. Torture is wrong.

How often have you heard conservatives saying

"I don't condone torture but..."
"Saddam did much worse..."
"Where was the outcry over the four contractors in Fallujah?"

Why are conservatives so happy to excuse torture?

[Bread and Circus]

1. Bingo. Presto. Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.....

Now, if only the Dem leaders in Congress could put these
words together.

[Unperson 309]

2. It's All About Consent

And Consent is one thing they just don't *grok*!

Clinton and Lewinsky did their thing mutually CONSENTING to do it.

The remarks about "frat pranks" limn this failure to grasp the principle perfectly. fraternity hazings are sort of half and half. The "pledge" CONSENTS to undergo the hazing. Maybe they get into more than they bargained for, but the immutable fact is that they are *there* by their own will.

The abuse photos show lack of consent on several levels:
1. The Iraqi detainees are there not of their own will.
2. They are naked, not of their own will.
3. They are being abused on several levels, culturally, religiously, sexually, physically and emotionally against their own will.

The fraternity pledge goes in with the expectation that the hazing will last for "X" hours, will be completed with the pledge's admission to the dominant group and the expectation that once the pledge becomes a memeber that he will join in the hazing of other newer members.

The detainee goes in againse his or her will, does *not* know when (or if) s/he will be released, or even if s/he will SURVIVE!

More later, but I have to leave4! Sorry...

Discussion, please.

309

[stoptheshrub]

3. with the exception of a few...

freepers I think that most Americans are REALLY outraged at these atrocities. It makes us look as bad as the people in fallujah who desecrated the bodies of the contractors. I in no way condone it and in fact think those responsible whould be put before the Hague for war crimes.

There is more outrage over this because we hold OURSELVES to a higher standard. Those people are sick and evil to do the things they did.

[ContraBass Black]

5. I don't think I realized how big the public reaction was

Until my pastor mentioned it in church yesterday and much of the congregation nodded sadly.

[seabeyond]

4. detainees had sex, and gang sex, with soldiers

ya.

we are all the way down to going to the right and fundies in our life. telling them, they had all the info. we didnt have to experience this. we could have long ago called bushie on truth, but singlehandly their refusal to speak out truth, created and allowed this. once again and thru out this admin people have told them things and they refuse to listen. the ones that have told bush what he wanted to hear kept their job. the ones that told them truth, fired, lindsey, shinsiki, and paul oneil. the democrats, the world have told a small group they are wrong. the small groups says you all are wrong, we the mass minority are right. my mamma told me, lollol, when i am the only one saying something, and everyone is saying the opposite, i might listen

i have always been pretty aware of morality, not a tough one for me, and has made my life pretty easy. even those that felt themselves more religious and moral than i, always had to come to, a pretty good gal. yet living in the panhandle and 6 years of kids being in fundie school i have been accepting adn embraced their beliefs as their own and right to. and i would embrace the love and lite that they were, and keep mouth shut, (some of the time, lol)

i am going to start with going to my fundie school and talking to the principle and ask how he teaches bush. and if need be, have him bring down my nine year old and let him justify the torture to him. and if he cant, if he lies about it, or refuses, then it is his shame and he knows better. and what does it say about him

i am going to preachers of churches with a crisis in religion. not faith.. my faith is solid and strong, but religion. they have to listen to my confession, lol lol and a wink. and htey have to be kind about it since we are all perfectly imperfect