Is it systemic or systematic? American vs. British use n/t

[loathesomeshrub]

[markses]

1. I understand a difference between the two

Systemic means a state of affairs that results from a particular kind of structure, or system. Example: Racism is systemic in the United States.

Systematic means a deliberate set of acts that are planned out to work a particular way. Example: He systematically elimated the e-coli from his meat supply.

The difference is important: Where the first shifts agency for a condition on to a system (thereby removing it from deliberate acts of an y particular agent), the second ascribes an even stronger agency to a particular agent, implying that nothing the agent did was accidental.

[loathesomeshrub]

2. So interchangeable in the case of the abuse situation.... n/t

[markses]

3. No, they would still mean completely different things

Or point to two different elements of the abuse.

To say the abuse was systemic would mean that it resulted from a whole system that was in place, and all the various nodes in the network.

To say that it was systematic would mean that those committing the abuse went through each step carefully, and planned out each of their actions.

Now, it could be both systemic (resulting from the whole organization of the system) AND systematic (also planned and executed carefully by the abusers).

However, it could also be systematic (carefully orchestrated) and NOT systemic (not resulting from the whole organization). In this second case, we'd be saying that the soldiers themselves planned and executed the abuse, but that it didn't arise from any conditions in the whole prison organization throughout the country (or the world).

The second interpretation matches the current Pentagon stance: It was the fault and responsibility of these specific soldiers, not the whole system. Very different things, in other words, and not interchangeable at all.

[wryter2000]

5. Not really

Systemic means that the whole US operation was involved in some way. Systematic would mean that the humiliation was intentional and planned, not just a spur of the moment thing. Even if only a few people did it.

[markses]

11. Could be systemic w/o being systematic, or systematic w/o being systemic

Could also be systemic and systematic.

But yes, completely different and not interchangeable.

[scarletwoman]

8. They are not "interchangeable", they are two different words describing

two different things.

They may be both applicable, but "systemic" and "systematic" are not synonymous. Nor do the two different words have anything to do with "American" vs. "British" usage.

systematic:

: methodical in procedure or plan <a systematic approach> <a systematic scholar> b : marked by thoroughness and regularity <systematic efforts>

systemic:

: of, relating to, or common to a system

Hope this helps.

sw

[wryter2000]

4. Those are two different things

Systemic means it's infected the entire organism. Systematic means a logical, and planned way of doing things. I'm systematic about caring for my snakes. They have set feeding schedules and times for changing their water and cleaning their cages.

[AgentLadyBug]

6. dunno how brits use them......

but in american, I believe the following is the case:

systemic - (primary) a consequence simply of a system being place, rather than a consequence of something more specific.

systemic - (secondary) thorough-going, pervasive, "throughout an entire system", as in medicine

systematic - thorough, organized, structured, complete

that's my feeling at any rate...

[Speck Tater]

7. Systemic is like

when a plant is poisoned by some chemical absorbed by the roots. It's a kind of internal damage that originates at the core, not just around the edges.

If the problem is systemic that means it originates at the top and spreads down through the ranks. If the problem is NOT systemic then it is just a few rotten apples in an otherwise healthy barrel.

i.e. Systemic = blame the leaders. Non-systemic = blame the guards.

[loathesomeshrub]

9. Thanks all for the explanation, I guess I meant both applicable.

[loathesomeshrub]

10. Thanks all for the explanation, I guess I meant both applicable.

[doni_georgia]

12. Systemic and Systematic - official definitions

Systemic - Relating to or affecting the entire body or an entire organism: systemic symptoms; a systemic poison.

Systematic - Purposefully regular; methodical.

By saying the abuse is systemic - our government is saying it is throughout the entire military system - the entire organism is infected.

By saying the abuse is systematic - the British are saying it is planned.

That's how I see it at least. There is a difference. One implies that these abuses are like a cancer that are affecting the whol military. The other says that it's part of the SOP, planned, accepted practice.