So, um, slow down with the demands for resignations, Dems.

[AP]

Don't you want these people to be the face of the Republican party through November?

IIRC, Jean Baudrillard in SIMULACRA AND SIMULATIONS writes about how the Watergate trials performed a function which covered up the real rot. He says that Watergate was just the tip of an iceberg, and the most serious implications were things that you couldn't solve by trying a few guys, or even by getting Nixon to resign. But, once the trials were over, and Nixon resigned, everyone felt the problem was solved. The fact is, the real dirty shit still went on and was never cleaned out of Washington and it still goes on today.

That's sort of what we're in danger of going through with Iraq. There's a lot of dirty shit, and getting Rumsfield to resign, and Bush to apologize just would make people feel like they've dealt with the problem.

It's so important, (1) to keep Rumsfield right where he is, so that people know that these policies and this shit going on in Iraq aren't solved by removing any one man, and (2) to make sure that people realize that the whole damn invasion is torture and rape, even if you don't have pictures of what's going on all over the country every day on every street. The pictures at that prison aren't the beginning and the end of the problem. They're the tip of a very big iceberg that can't be melted down by making an apology and firing a few people.

I may be hard to solve, but a pretty good start would be to get every single Bush Republican out of office, and to take a long hard look at our democracy and figuring out how we put in office and unelected fraud, and how we let him use all the tools of fascism to transfer a lot of wealth and power to a small group of people who do not have the best interests of America in mind and who are, by no means, patriots.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Baudrillard+Watergate&spell=1

[SlavesandBulldozers]

1. nice

great points.

[Old and In the Way]

2. I think so too.

I want Rummy around for the Nov. election. I want the players in this administration to go down together.

[maggrwaggr]

3. Rummy resigning would be a mere diversion, I agree

What gets me is that these are the same guys who were the crooks in the Nixon days, Rummy and Cheney and the like, now back in power and wanting to "do it right".

they're the same people who believed Vietnam could have been won, we could have just "paved the place over" if the politicians had let them.

And now they're in power, getting their chance, and who's running against them?

John Kerry. It's deja vu all over again.

This fight needs to play out.

[calimary]

4. Yes indeedy!

I want rummy to stay exactly where he is. I want him to stick around, maintaining his increasingly-exalted status as Millstone Around the Neck for bush. As long as he stays, he's a festering sore of all the wrong reminders. Besides, the boy king is not one to admit he made a mistake - EVER. He doesn't really ever apologize. He has a near-miss with one, talking to the King of Jordan?!?!? Sheesh, that was big of him. He should have offered a huge, heartfelt apology to the Arab world he ostensibly addressed on TV on Wednesday, AND to the American people for just ROYALLY screwing the pooch. True to his pattern, of course. We've ALL received the Harken Energy treatment from this stupid schmuck.

The longer rummy is around, the more it reinforces that blind, stupid arrogance about bush. Which is good. Other posts here have proven most thought-provoking. Such as - loyalty is everything to these self-important "captains of industry" and "masters of all they survey." bush's track record already indicates that he keeps people who are loyal to him, and only fires those who've told unfortunate truths or had the nerve to bring something to light that his lordship didn't like. If rummy's considered incompetent, all the more reason to keep him! And truth is not his signature, so according to this yardstick, he's quite safe.

Further, if these schmucks refuse to recognize or acknowledge that they've done anything wrong here, or they try to buy into the limbaugh logic of this being "frat-boys" letting off a little steam and having a little fun, then why should rummy resign in the first place? After all, what's the big deal? They're just lousy terrorists, right? And they'd never vote for him anyway and they probably expect to be able to run their own country and make bush pay for their oil, too - the NERVE!

In addition, it would open up a huge kettle of worms if rummy left because he might no longer have the legal (and intimidating) protection of the White House. He'd truly be thrown to the wolves. He might harbor lots of resentments and a hugely bruised huge ego about being made the fall guy, that he'd be the next to write a tell-all book (particularly since he'll probably need some BIG bucks for legal defense, not to mention the ego stroke of being still invited onto all those talk shows, even after he's lost his "title.") bush would want to prevent rummy's writing another book - and keep him close by, probably much the same way as he's done with George Tenet. Besides, to replace a cabinet-level official means you have to have Senate confirmation hearings, and who knows what sturm and drang and lousy publicity for the White House would be generated? Who knows how long such a nomination might be held up?

And - truly - you've heard the old saying "better the devil you know"? rummy stinks. Has for a LONG time. But who'd be likely to replace him? perle, maybe? Or wolfowitz? Either of these is a GENUINELY DREADFUL alternative, especially if they think it means they get to swagger around with that hotshot, macho title now, adding more power, influence, control, and manipulation than ever.

rummy looks rather good, right now, weighing down bush's neck muscles. More weight to add to a ship that's now seriously taking on water. Plus all the baggage of bad memories and associations that even the mention of his name or the glance at his photo will instantly trigger in many voters. This is not a bad thing. As much as I detest rumsfeld and the whole sorry lot of them, let's keep 'em where they are. They're apt to be bigger liabilities that way.

One other thing - you're quite correct to point out that - if rummy is jettisoned, too many people, and the pundits urging them on, will assume that the problem's solved, all better. It's fixed. Just SHUT UP. It's over. Isn't that george just SO decisive and how 'bout that LEADERSHIP of his? True, steady and strong - got rid of that bad apple. Let's all move on now. That's old news. Whaddya belly-aching about, you stupid Clinton-lovers? I can hear the freepers now. So we'd all be back to the point where we've seen yet another "bush is toast" thread build up our hopes, only to have them dashed.

Best to let it ride. Let them twist in the wind for awhile.

Don't they deserve it?

[murielm99]

5. Yes, very nice.

I have always noticed how many of the people around shrub used to work for Nixon. All of them should have been prevented from ever holding a government position again. I don't care if they were not found guilty in a court of law. Their disqualification should have about by social pressure in Washington. The fact that this did not happen shows that the rot still exists.

We may have to experience genuine hardship for things to change. It may take a total economic collapse to bring about the ouster of all Bush republicans. People vote their pocketbooks.

For what it's worth, my parents were too small to remember much about Hoover, but they do recall how much he was hated by the time his Presidency was over.

Maybe we need to have a general strike. Most other countries have had one. We need to draw attention to what is happening to the middle class.

Rummy is testifying tomorrow. I don't think it will make one damn bit of difference what he says. This may look like a big deal today, but it is only May. They will find some way to defuse this, like everything else. I still think the only way to get rid of them for a long time is through the economic disaster that is sure to come.

[AP]

11. YES! Nixon's resignation and the hearings and trials made people feel

like the problem was identified and anyone who didn't resign or go to jail must, therefore, be fit to serve.

Thus we have people who were doing very bad things still controlling the world.

The even more fucked up thing was that Deep Throat was a REPUBLICAN! It's very likely that Watergate was a big scam to get a sub-cadre of Republicans even more power.

[JayS]

20. "people who were doing very bad things still controlling the world"

Yup, those folks are still around. Presidents come and go, as do all politicians but there is a core group that remains no matter who is in office. Those are the people to worry about in the long run.

Check out the short clip and story below and I think you will agree with me.
********************



Go to http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1846269 for a short but interesting audio clip. Click on "All Things Considered audio" and you can listen in RealAudio or Windows Media.

Also of interest:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20040419/ap_on_go_c...

Document: Oklahoma City Bombing Was Taped
By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer
Mon Apr 19, 6:59 PM ET

WASHINGTON - A Secret Service document written shortly after the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing described security video footage of the attack and witness testimony that suggested Timothy McVeigh (news - web sites) may have had accomplices at the scene.

"Security video tapes from the area show the truck detonation 3 minutes and 6 seconds after the suspects exited the truck," the Secret Service reported six days after the attack on a log of agents' activities and evidence in the Oklahoma investigation.

*SNIP*

An entry a day earlier on the same log reported that the security video was consistent with a witness' account that he saw McVeigh's getaway car in the lead before a woman guided the truck to its final parking spot in front of the Murrah building.

"A witness to the explosion named Grossman claimed to have seen a pale yellow Mercury car with a Ryder truck behind it pulling up to the federal building," the log said. The witness "further claimed to have seen a woman on the corner waving to the truck."

A Secret Service agent named McNally "noted that this fact is significant due to the fact that the security video shows the Ryder truck pulling up to the Federal Building and then pausing (7 to 10 seconds) before resuming into the slot in front of the building," the log said. "It is speculated that the woman was signaling the truck when a slot became available."

*SNIP*

[neebob]

6. I feel the same way

Let's not enable them to appoint a fall guy, move on and pretend this was an isolated case and they did something about it. At least let it drag out until it becomes common knowledge that Bush knew about it for months.

[Tatiana]

7. Nobody seriously expects Rumsfeld to resign. It's Dem strategy, IMO.

Bush himself said Rumsfeld will remain a part of his Cabinet. This administration is on the Titanic together. They are either going to swim together or sink together.

I think the Democrats are drawing attention to the fact that there is (yet another) major crisis that demands accountability in this administration. What made the headlines? "Democrats call for the resignation of Rumsfeld." To the uninformed sheeple, this will raise the question of why the Democrats would want Rumsfeld to resign. What horrible thing did he do to warrant such a drastic action?

I think this is strategy to get the public to:

1) investigate for themselves what exactly is going on with Iraq, this "war on terror," and the secrecy of this administration

2) hammer home the theme of accountability. Someone or some persons of high authority need to be held responsible for the awful crimes against humanity committed in Iraq.

Bush will look foolish for admitting he reprimanded Rumsfeld, but not calling for his resignation. Of course, he can't fire Rumsfeld because that would draw more attention to the fact that this whole war and the lack of planning that went into it was a sham.

So it's win-win for the Dems, the way I see it.

[submerged99]

9. Agree. It's a good tactic to highlight another Bush screwup

I don't believe Bush would ever fire Rumsfeld nor do I believe that he would resign.But, it's good to call for his resignation so that the voters remember the scandal when they go to the polls.

[Oddman]

8. No one is going to resign and no one is going to get fired

everyone in this administration is way too stubborn.

Robert Novak is happy with the way things are going of course . . .

[ibegurpard]

10. I agree

I want that fucker to drag this whole administration down with him. Every time I think I cannot be more disgusted with bushrepublicans, they surprise me.

[seabeyond]

12. i think they need to quit asking for resignation too

some things happened yesterday that shifted, and now dems need to sit back and be quite about it for the moment. the americans appeased themselves of the abuses and have minimized it to the point were they are ok with it now. so we have to allow more shit to come out. til it comes to the point were they see the wholeness of what was created by our commander in chief

right now, this morning, the democrats are once again being protrayed as shrills and that isnt going to be productive

as amazing as it is that citizens still dont see. they dont. bushco has 6 more months to fuck up and they are going to

also, take rumsfield out and all the bad that happens in iraq the excuse for bush would be, hey you all made me fire rumsfield, not my fault for the mess

[LeftHander]

13. May be too late...

Rumsfeld may already be out the door. Precisely because of your very arguments. KKKarl Rove has already played this scenario out by asking which is better for Bush relection Rumsfeld staying or Rumsfeld going. Clearly Bush will take the high road and ultimately separate himself from Rumsfeld. As new allegations arise and continued exposure of responsibility Bush will be forced to ask, in private, for Rummy's resignation.

Because if nothing IS done and RUmmy continues America will be more likely to determine in large numbers that the Bush administration is above reproach despite being a total failure. And blast them out of office.

The unknown here is how dumb is Bush? If he continues to stand behind Rummy then I agree this will ultimately hurt his re-selection. But I suspect we will see KKKarl step in and drop the ax on Rummy. (He better do it soon becauase he's about to be indicted in the Plame outing)

Now if the election is already rigged, bought and paid for then he can do anything he wants...

[AP]

14. Rummy might perform sepaku...

that way, Bush looks good to the far right (who will blame Rumsfield for not toughing it out), and he gets his fall guy so that moderates (and, surprisingly, many Dems!) feel better about the rape, humiliation and torture of the nation of Iraq.

[Zolok]

15. I read that book...

and I wasn't impressed.
But I digress...ousting Rummy is a necessity.
Why?
His lousy leadership is getting our soldiers killed in Iraq...IF a better SoD succeeds him then maybe just maybe the stage will be set for a pull-out...in the fashion that McNamara's resignation foretold the Viet Nam peace talks.
Lets hope the analogy ends there though....those talks dragged on forever.
At this point anyone beats Rummy...even an old hack like Scowcroft or dickless Tom Ridge.

www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[AP]

18. It's difficult to understand. Read it again some day.

Actually, read it now. Current events probably make it very easy to understand.

[Zolok]

21. Well I'm sure there are a lot of

books I should re-read but don't hold yer breath.
:)
www,chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[PROGRESSIVE1]

16. They have to be around for the election. This jobs report......

is not going to help us. What JK has to do is hammer home the message that he will do better than Bushler on the economy and push the coruption of this administration.

[mgarretson]

17. points well taken...

I agree with all of you folks that it's better politically to have Rummy at the helm come election day and I'm sure that'll probably be the case, but I think the more everyone calls for his dismissal and the more W. refuses will help kick him out in November... It's kind of a symbolic protest for me... "We know you're going to try and keep the investigation under wraps, Mr. President... but for the good of the people, we're going to do our best to keep it in the public eye."

Just my 2 cents since I struggled over whether or not to sign the TrueMajority petition.

[AP]

19. I think it distracts people from the real problem -- the president and the

oily-gopoly.

If Rumsfield goes, the torture, rape and humiliation of Iraq doesn't end.

[meow mix]

22. no. i wanna see someone eat some dirt Right Now!

been waiting and waiting and waiting, maybe its finally time =)

[AP]

24. Who'd you rather see eat dirt, Bush and Cheney? Or Rumsfield?

[meow mix]

26. thats like gambling though

makes me nervous to ante up with a rummy on the platter.
and besides that..
hows it gonna look to the iraquis if we dont start firing some people?

[AP]

30. This is what Baudrillard was saying though. If you frame the debate

around whethe Rumsfield needs to go, you run the risk of having him go, and that being an argument that the problem is solved, and Bush can stay.

I guess the point isn't so much whether Rumsfield stays or goes, it's framing your argument about why he's going.

But, I also think there's a risk that, if he goes, it'll be easier for Bush to sell the idea to moderates that the problem is solved and they don't need to vote him out of office in November.

[sampsonblk]

23. Best case - call for resignations and have Bush refuse

That would set the stage for our fall campaign.

[AP]

25. Best case is an end to the fascist oily-gopoly, which I don't think we get

if we pretend that the problem in Iraq is a few a photos in a prison and Don Rumsfield.

We should be saying that the only way to solve this problem is to get rid of Bush and reevaluate what it took to get us to the point where oil companies are running a "war," and we should make sure it never happens again.

[sampsonblk]

27. Dm right!

You are on the money.

We should say Rumfeld needs for be the first of many to go. Start with Rummy, end with Bush.

[mgarretson]

28. kick!!

:kick:

Start with Rummy and end with Bush... I see a bumper sticker in the works! :evilgrin:

:yourock: sampsonblk!

[NNN0LHI]

29. Its all choreographed

Powell is going to replace Rumsfeld and make it look like everyone wins. Thats whats going on here. Smoke and mirrors. This is being done in hopes of BSing the Arab World that we are really good guys so please let us steal your oil quietly like thieves in the night. It won't work though. Only Fox viewers believe this kind of propaganda.

Don

[AP]

31. I thought that last night. Worst possible scenario: Powell replaces...

...Rumsfield.

Powell has been sold as a critic of the administration's Iraq activities. Voters are starting to get critical of Iraq. Put Powell in charge and a lot of moderates might think, oh, good. Iraq problem solved now that a black man and a critic of Bush is in charge.

It won't change a damn thing though. Powell is just as much down with the overall fascist project -- the shift of a lot of wealth up the ladder -- as anyone else in that administration. Just because he was actually in the armed services and has a different idea about how wealth should be shifted up the ladder doesn't mean problem is solved.