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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:11 PM
Original message
Poll question: Is Zionism Racism?

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. Shouldn't this be in the Sand Box?
This is going to become a flame war post haste.
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Sand box?
?
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Israel/Palestine Forum
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'm still
?
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. what exactly isn't clear to you?
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. The part
"Israel/Palestine Forum"

Where? I don't see one. :shrug: ?
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. the foreign affairs forum
i/p is a sub forum
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I am suggesting this post be moved to the Israeli/Palestinian forum
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Posts like this are guaranteed to start a flamewar, which is why all things Zionism are posted in the Israeli/Palestinian forum.
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Aha!
Wow, I didn't even know that place existed. Yes, I suppose moving it might be appropriate.
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. You might have been better off not knowing that place existed
It's not a very happy place.
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Aussie_Hillbilly Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. LOL
Understatement of the week. People who agree on almost everything else find the I/P forum and next you know they are engaged in destructive, highly polarised flame wars. The standard of debate there is fairly low, and I admit I have written a few posts I have regretted later.

The 'Sandbox' exists for a reason. I hate to think what DU would be like if those threads were in LBN and GD.

Now that Muddle has been Tombstoned, hopefully things will improve.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. It's a dungeon alright
. It is a real shame too.
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jsanteramo Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
45. Zionism is not racism
It is being proud of your Jewish heritage and acknowledging the necessity of the Israeli/Jewish state! It is Jewish Patriotism!
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. White Power!
White Supremacy is not racism. It is being proud of your White heritage and acknowledging the necessity of the Caucasian state! It is White Patriotism!
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Aussie_Hillbilly Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Bullsh-t
I'm proud of my Jewish heritage. Doesn't mean I support dispossessing Palestinians.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. i think his avatar signals that's the intention of his post
:eyes:
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. It took me many many years to come around to this position
but my answer is yes.

The declaration that a piece of land is ordained by God to belong to a particular group of people is indefensible. The term "racism" clouds the issue because Jews and Arabs aren't really distinct races as the term is used. However, the meaning inherent in the word applies here.
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Aussie_Hillbilly Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. I second your post
To clarify my position, I would add that while I strongly support the right of Jews to live in Palestine (as many have peacefully since Joshua's time) I do not support Zionism's use of deadly force to establish a mono-ethnic apartheid state built on confiscated land.

It's not just Israel's actions today, the Zionists were doing this when they were just terror gangs under the British Mandate.
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KAZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. Yes. To quote "The declaration that a piece.." is spot on.
But somehow I think we're way beyond that. The fundies are right. This thing is coming to a head.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
60. Amen! n/t
.
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Johnny Arson Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. Depends on whether you believe in the Jewish conception of God.
If you do, then no. They're just fulfilling God's will.

If you don't, the concept of God ordaining an area of land (as well as choosing a particular group above all others and encouraging them to slaughter other tribes in the old testament) seems self-serving at the very least.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. What gets me is the hatred of Palestinians
I was raised under influences of Jewish culture, so there are many aspects that I respect and appreciate, but it burns me up to hear things like "There is no such thing as Palestine" and things that display a superioristic attitude of the issuer.

I feel that Jews, of all people, should be sensative to human rights and ethnic cleansing, etc. But I feel that, like the US, Israel has been run off the rails of the true intentions of the many groups of individuals that make up the nebulous concept "The Jews", by a small powerful unscrupulous group of fanatics.

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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Yeah...in a "perfect world"...one would think that Jews...
would be more "tolerant"...unfortunately, that's not the case.
Pretty friggin sad if such intelligent people cannot seek the
higher ground from their own long and painful history.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. Look at us though
I feel most americans are not represented by our leaders, so you can use sweeping statements like "Jews" or even "Israelis"... Likudists is the proper resolution for the misguided.
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Nope....
I think ALL are guilty, just like ALL Americans are guilty for
the actions of shrub.
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YankeeFan Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #21
56. So Which Side Are You On...
...Here:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0503GazaShooting...

"Islamic militants praise 'heroic' slaughter of pregnant woman, 4 daughters"



I can understand shooting people wearing uniforms.
This I cannot and will not. This is nothing more than pure murder.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. Actually this is a ruse
Edited on Thu May-06-04 10:53 PM by Classical_Liberal
Many of the Orthodox settlers refuse to fight for Israel because they think Israel can only be fated to them. They believe they lost it in the first place because of sin and because God was pissed. They rationalize the settlements, by not considering the secular IDF forces Jews.

Sharon claims it is god's real estate because he is a demagogue. He is also an atheist. So go figure.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. And that's why there are some in the IDF who refuse to fight in the
territories to defend the settlers. It's so often the
fundamentalists of every religion who cause the problems. When
I was younger and very passionate, I believed in the right of the
Jewish people to a state of their own, but I've become so
disillusioned over the years by their attitudes to the Palestinians.
Hell, I cried when the Israeli athletes were killed in Munich in '72
but now I cry for the dispossessed Palestinian families, and the
dead Arab children.

It's a cruel, crazy world.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #33
55. IDF are individuals
If they want to refuse they should go far it. I completely agree with their refusal. I wasn't advocating the settler view point. I was explaining.
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Christ was Socialist Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
16. I don't personally recognize israel's existence
because that would be just cause for every native people to uproot and oppress current inhabitants, and considering i'm part native american, i would like to se eit, but recognize it's impractical.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. I have returned to the land of my people
I am on a project in Alpharetta, GA. I was watching Roswell Public TV and I saw a story that this used to be Cherokee land. My great grandfather's mother was a Cherokee Indian.

Some corporate facist named Roswell King decided that he wanted to build a factory using their river, so he got the government to send the Natives away across the Mississippi (Trail of Tears) and the government gave away their land. Roswell went and bought it back from the people who got the individual plots.

I knew my great grandfather while he was alive. Now here I am back in the land of his mother 150 or so years later. Things have changed.
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Christ was Socialist Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. thats a small scale, and...
not to much corporate influence is involved. Imagine if mexico wanted their land and the natives wanted thiers. Then we might have a problem.
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
17. Not just "yes"...but HELL YES.
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
19. zionism=manifest destiny = wiping out the indigenous population
Edited on Thu May-06-04 10:38 PM by corporatewhore
in name of god
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. I think "god" has A LOT of explaining to do....
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #22
62. Being Gawd means never having to say you're sorry!
Ask Bush!
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. That is bullshit. Zionism got it's goal 60 years ago from the UN
and these people who hate Israel aren't anti-Zionists, they like to hide behind that label.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
26. I don't know whether zionsim is, but as currently practiced it is
Edited on Thu May-06-04 10:44 PM by Classical_Liberal
. The thing is most liberal jewish advocates of the two state solution are zionists as well.
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
28. Not intrinsically..
but I would wager most Zionists are rascist. Of course you can't expect the Jews to put up with all the anti-semitism in the world without reactionaries popping up.

Not to say all Zionists are rascists, to clarify, or to say that all Jews are Zionists. Just to make sure b/c I don't have any fireproof clothing on right now and my dickies are comfy.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
32. Can someone explain to me what the term Zionist mean?
In layman's terms please. Thanks.
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. As far as I know
it depends on who is using the term. It is a very politicized term like "socialism" and "terrorism" and all those sorts of things.

But basically, it refers to people who wanted to establish a Jewish homeland in Israel/Palestine, and may or may not possibly mean that they want to establish it in all or some of Israel/Palestine, and may or may not mean multiple other things.

Click here to go back to the main forums.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. So zionists is not a race or a religion? What nationality
or religion are zionists usually? Jewish? Muslim?
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Zionism
Zionism is a political movement among Jews holding that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland. Formally founded in 1897, Zionism embraced a variety of opinions in its early years on where that homeland might be established. From 1917 it focussed on the establishment of a Jewish homeland or state in Palestine, the location of the ancient Kingdom of Israel. Since 1948, Zionism has been a movement to support the development and defence of the State of Israel, and to encourage Jews to settle there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Anti-Zionists seek to destroy the State of Israel. Zionists to protect it
It's pretty much that.
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Ah the world in black and white
so nice....
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Yeah, it's way less simplistic to believe most Zionists are racists
Edited on Thu May-06-04 11:26 PM by Bombtrack
And I have seen polls, most jews are Zionists. And the Jewish people have been historically both one of largest contributors to Human society in every fascet including civil rights and tolerance in general. They might be the LEAST racist major ethnic/group religion in the world other than Tibetan Bhuddists.

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #42
52. Jewish anti-Zionist groups

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org /

"Jews Not Zionists is spreading the word...
that Zionism and the State of Israel
is in complete contradiction
to the teachings of the Torah."

A partial listing of some well-known Orthodox Jewish anti-Zionist groups:

* Bene Yoel
* Breslov
* Brisk
* Hazon Ish
* Kaschau
* Krasna
* Kretcheniff
* Malochim
* Munkacs
* Neturei Karta
* Nitra
* Pupa
* Satmar
* Skullene
* Slonim (Weinberg)
* Toldoth Aharon
* Toldoth Avrohom Yitzchok
* Tosh
* Wiznitz Hassidic sect based in Monsey, NY


A partial listing of some well-known Orthodox Jewish anti-Zionist organizations:

* Edah HaCharedith lekol Makhelot Ha'Ashkenazim
* Rabbinical High Court for all Ashkenazic communities, Jerusalem
* Edah HaCharedith HaSefaradit, Sefaradic Rabbinical High Court, Jerusalem
* Hisachduth HaRabbonim DeArtzos HaBris VeKanada - Central Rabbinical Congress of the United States and Canada (CRC)
* Yeshivath Ahavath Shalom


A partial listing of some well-known contemporary anti-Zionist Orthodox rabbis:

* HaGaon Rav Koppelman - Dean, Talmudical Academy, Lucerne
* HaGaon Reb Avruhom Leitner, Spiritual Leader, Chief Rabbi and Dean of Congregation and Yeshivah Binyan Duvid, Brooklyn, NY
* HaGaon Reb Yecheskel Roth, formerly Chief Rabbi of Karlesberg, and currently Chief Rabbi of Cong. Yirei Hashem and Dean of the esteemed Rabbinical Judicial Academy for the Advanced, Beth Midrash Le'Horu'eh, Brooklyn NY (Rabbi Roth is (unofficially, however) considered by many as Chief Rabbi and Rabbinic Judge of Boro Park, Brooklyn


A partial listing of some well-known contemporary anti-Zionist Hassidic Leaders:

* the Bobover Rebbe, Grand Rabbi Naftali Halberstam, leader of the international Bobov Hassidic movement based in Brooklyn, NY
* the Toldos Aharon Rebbe, Grand Rabbi Duvid Kohn
* the Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok Rebbe, Grand Rabbi Shmuel Yaakov Kohn
* the Munkatcher Rav Shlit"a - Grand Rabbi Moshe Leib Rabinowitz, leader of the international Munkacs Hassidic movement based in Brooklyn NY


A partial listing of some well-known Orthodox anti-Zionist rabbis of past generations:

* His Holiness Sidna Baba Sali - ADMoR HaHaham Hakadosh Rabi Yisrael Abu Hasera
* Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman
* the Brisker Rav, HaGaon Reb Cahyim Soloveitchik
* the Brisker Rav, HaGaon Reb VelvelSoloveitchik
* the Brisker Rav, Hagaon Reb Moshe Yehudah Leib Diskin
* the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, HaGaon Reb Yoseph Chayim Sonnenfeld
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Aussie_Hillbilly Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. In the words
of Lewis Carol "a word means what I want it to mean".

Zionism, based on the preaching of its founders, is the doctrine that being Jewish is incompatible with living among non-Jews.

The next logical step was that Jews ought to use force (or get a Western empire to do so) to set up their own state in Palestine at the expense of the locals who had become Muslims and Christians.

http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner /
http://www.JewsAgainstZionism.com
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. anti-zionists and marxists, wow those sites sound objective
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Aussie_Hillbilly Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Don't know about the Marxists.
I'd agree they aren't often objective or truthful, although the book I linked to is _very_ well researched and referenced. And written by a Jew.

Jews Against Zionism is a very good site. The site is run by Orthodox Jews.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #44
53. It is interesting to note
as I am sure you know, that in the 30s the zionist movement was viewed as anti-Semitic by a lot of orthodox Jewish clergy. Clearly some still hold to that view...
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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. You know you say most Jews support Zionism, but there are many I've
met that don't. So what if most support it? Not too long ago, most Americans supported Bush. And Zionism has been around for a long time, and for half of its history most Jews DID NOT support it. That being said, I don't think Zionism in theory is any more racist than any other nationality. Zionism just means wanting a Jewish homeland. I support the Palestinians right to a homeland, so why shouldn't I support the Jews having one?

However, given the peculiar circumstances of this nationalism (Jews were linked by religious idenity, not by geography, and it just happened that the homeland they wanted was already inhabited by other people who constituted a majority of the population), I think in practice Zionism has become racist. Geopolitical realities and the Cold War didn't help matters much.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #49
54. Thirty years ago, even twenty years ago,
most people didn't think twice about their support for the state
of Israel. Now many are beginning to question it - I think Ariel
Sharon has a lot to do with changing attitudes. He's played on
the fears of Israelis, and taken his personal anti-Arab feelings
a bit too far. It's very counter-productive for those who genuinely
want to see peace in the region, however tenuous it might be.
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. Zionism:
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

from http://www.dictionary.com
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
43. Thanks so much guys for the education.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #43
50. Informative link:
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #43
51. Consider youself Lucky, Cat girl
Skinner tombstoned my first avatar "Beware_of_god" after 1400 posts because I asked if Zionism was real or a conspiracy theory.
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
47. One of the most pernicious forms...
... n/t
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Guy_Montag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 04:21 AM
Response to Original message
57. Does anyone have a copy of Webster's Dictionary?
I guess it's got to be a recent edition, but can you look up "anti-Semitism", I read recently that the definition is "hatred of the state of Israel" or some thing similar. When I thought it was hatred of Jews. Though technically, I believe Palestinians are Semitic too.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. There was a big pissing contest over the Israel addition to the definition
Edited on Fri May-07-04 05:08 AM by Classical_Liberal
in just the past couple of years.
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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #57
61. Yes they are -- all Arabs are Semitic. Pretty ironic and
pretty telling in and of itself, isn't it, that "anti-Semitic" has come to mean strictly "anti-Jewish?"
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 04:38 AM
Response to Original message
58. More like "manifest destiny" for Jews -- the racism is sort of incidental
Edited on Fri May-07-04 04:38 AM by 0rganism
I dunno, it's kind of a sad statement that Zionist Jews are pushing for a patch of desert smack in the middle of a bunch of people who hate them. I always thought the UN ceding Palestine to the displaced Jews of Europe was kind of a cop out or maybe a sick att4empt to finish Hitler's "final solution"; instead of making full reparations then and there, send the Jews back to Israel to be slaughtered (ha!). Why not give us some prime real estate, like SoCal or Guam or Denmark or even a backwater like Nova Scotia? But Noooooo, it has to be freaking Palestine, ex-British colony just longing to develop a sense of Muslim national identity and then *blammo* it's a Jewish state!

And we wonder why the locals had difficulty adapting?

I realize this Jerusalem thing is important to some people. You know, the Palestineans would probably have been okay with lots of Jews moving in, as long as they were not trying to make a semi-apartheid Jewish state. But somehow, everything got really fucked up along the way.

I really don't see a solution coming in the next hundred years, anyway.
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