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The abuse scandal is going to bring this administration down.

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grytpype Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:50 PM
Original message
The abuse scandal is going to bring this administration down.
I just don't see any alternative. The outcry is going to be so great they will have to face the facts -- they have no credibility at all, they are totally irresponsible with the power they have been given, and they must be stopped.
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Jack_Dawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. I hope so
How trivial does Clinton's blowjob look compared to this shit?
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ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Very doubtful
Credibility doesn't matter.

It's all in the advertising.

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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. ...in a real democrazy it would,
Edited on Thu May-06-04 09:58 PM by Dirk39
but an administation like this would not have been possible in a democrazy.
Other U.S. administrations survived the genocid against 2-4 million vietnamese people, including torture that was far worse than what's happenining in Iraq. The North-Americans only care about the well-being of those, who commited these crimes, including people like Kerry. Most Americans still don't even have the slightest idea of how many people where killed in Vietnam, they think about 100.000, but don't care anyway. Why should this "scandal" bring this administration down?
Why do you call it a "scandal"? Does this mean after centuries of respecting human rights, a few people were tortured and now we know?
I wish, it would be true,

Hello from Germany,
Dirk
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grytpype Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Here's why it's a big deal.
The abuse scandal demolishes the national myth that Americans are always, always, always the good guys in any conflict. That is the myth that is propping George Bush up.

People can't believe that Bush on behalf of America could do something as so thoroughly irresponsible and evil as he actually did in Iraq. Maybe now they'll be able to see the truth.
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Great point
"The abuse scandal demolishes the national myth that Americans are always, always, always the good guys in any conflict. That is the myth that is propping George Bush up."

But the real nail in the coffin is that Bush knew about the torture since January. This one cuts too close for him to avoid.
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. It's a big deal because it involves sex, nudity, violence and
humiliation. This is what gets people's blood boiling. Plain old violence just doesn't do it. Plus, there are PICTURES. Not pictures of blown up, cut up and burned up people, but NAKED people. Not pictures of children's flattened heads, but pictures of a "dominatrix" and smoking cigarettes like a man and dragging naked, humiliated men on dog leashes. You have to have SEX to make people pay attention. It's so obvious.
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riverwalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. only if we all pull the rope
the outcry sounds like a wimper I'm afraid
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Oddman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
7. Will they prove that bush knew in January?
God, I hope so!!!!!!!!

Blood is on the hands of our Lady MacBush.

Out damn bush! Out, I say!!

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Kool Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I think, according to Rummy, W knew in January.
I thought that was what Runny said on Monday or Tuesday, whenever his last briefing took place. Someone in the WH press briefing said as much to Scott today. She said it was around January 13.
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. the WH spin
is that bush* didn't know about the PHOTOS, and is upset that he had to see them on TV..

ummm...errrr...so he's upset because the Teletubbies were pre-empted by photos of prisoners being tortured?

The reports were there in JANUARY, and doesn't "the Fertilizer" (my new nick-name for bush* http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... ) receive briefings? Isn't he kept up to date by someone reading to him during his morning breakfast? did someone just "skip" over the scary parts so not to frighten him?

in any event -- just another excuse to NOT take responsibility and things will be spun to end up blaming Clinton for everything that has gone wrong since the beginning of time.

Rummy will take some heat but emerge relatively unharmed (ROVE and GOPers will make sure of that) and the lower level peons will be placed on the sacrifical alter

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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
9. don't count on it . . . they own EVERYTHING . . .
the presidency . . . the Congress . . . the courts . . . the media . . . all of which will conspire to ensure that BushCo ain't goin' nowhere . . . not now, not in November . . . sorry, but that's my take on it right now . . . I'm praying I'm proven wrong . . .
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 04:41 AM
Response to Original message
11. If this doesn't bring him down then
there isn't anything else that could, one can only hope.
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laura888 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:06 AM
Response to Original message
12. photos more powerful than anything so far
some of you may think that Bush is teflon because he's come out smiling through so many other scandals.

But, remember, EVERYTHING else that has so far come
against the junta have been verbal slams, many of which were no doubt
incomprehensible to a vast majority of Murkins. Clarke's book and others were damning - but if you asked your average joe what the hoopla surrounding Clarke was now - would they be able to tell you? I myself can barely remember the details. They may have known when he was in the lime-light. But now? But no words are necessary to accompany these photos. There is nothing vague about them. You don't have to know any background of what went on, or who said what to who. These shocking images are burned into the brains of billions of people.

Bush is running scared as never before because he knows that shocking one-liners are what Murkins pay attention to. These photos trump any one-liner that can possibly come out of his mouth. They are the nails in his coffin.
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I agree, I can barely remember
myself what the allegations were involving Clark and even the 9-11 commission. One thing about the photos is that Americans are always drawn to anything involving nudity, they are like little kids where that is concerned so EVERYONE is going to know what this is about and remember it.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:20 AM
Response to Original message
13. the current reaction (=no resignations) is screwing the soldiers
The current reaction of the Administration is "saving the US Army's reputation".

But whose reputation does it save exactly? And more importantly: In whose eyes does it do so?

The answer is painfully simple: Calling it "abuse" will not help the soldiers facing the angry people in Iraq nor will it help to improve the Arab assessment of the Iraq invasion.
Nor does it put a credible stop to the practice.

Bush has to apologize to the victims, their families, their friends, their culture and their country. This has to be done credibly and with consequences.

An isolated "oops -shit happens" speech, given more to the benefit of the domestic voters, might help a few guys sitting in Washington, it sure won't help the people facing the Iraqi anger.
Resignations, public inquiries, real apologies and guarantees that it won't happen again might help - if it is done NOW.
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demgrrrll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I think that this pseudo-presidency was founded on a manipulated
image. If there is one thing that his handlers know it is that in our current culture the image is what matters. The photographs
are enormously damning. Spinning won't erase the image. Rummy hinted
at trying to suppress the rest of the videos and photographs so
the people involved can receive a fair trial. As if that were a big
concern of theirs. They know they are in trouble. This is the type of incident that festers and grows over time.

Think about the images that you remember from the Vietnam era. I may not be able to quote chapter and verse about the historical aspects but I do remember the photograph of the little girl running down the
road and the man being shot in the head. Indelible. I don't think they are going to be able to outrun this one.
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