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I'm sorry but Kerry is no Dean...doesn't strike a chord.

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sventvkg Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:34 PM
Original message
I'm sorry but Kerry is no Dean...doesn't strike a chord.
I'm bummed out because although he was one of the least inspiring candidates from the start, I had high hopes for him. If Kerry wins it will be Bush that beat himself, not Kerry. With most of the Dems supporting this ridiculous war, I'm starting to think it's all one big party behind the scenes anyway...I believe many liberals are becoming disenfranchised...I'm just being honest here, no need to flame me.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thank goodness he's no Dean!
:party: :kick:
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Beat me to it! n/t
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
35. my exact first thought too! nt
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newsguyatl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. he's outta the race now
and you're still goin for the cheapshots eh, molly?

give it a rest.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. Dean has fire and passion and personality.
I'm supporting Kerry because I have to. No other reason. Bashing Dean just brings back all the lovely memories of the hateful attacks on Dean and his supporters here. I'd feel much more confident with an interesting, charismatic candidate.. because after all, we've seen that a moronic, sadistic, phony like Bush can be elected on perceived personality alone. Bush is more "likable" than Kerry to the uniformed public... Image is everything. If Kerry's people can't inject some sort of life into that man before November, we're in trouble. He's a nice guy.. but damn boring.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
57. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. We shudder at the attack ads Bush would have let loose on Dean
it would not have been pretty. But we did our best here at DU to convey how ugly it would have been, and we fortunatley avoided that unpleasant bloodbath.
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_NorCal_D_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
72. I must agree.
:evilgrin: :hi:
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denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
152. Yes, it would've been awful to have an anti-war candidate now.
One who didn't have a long voting history of tax increases to play up. One who didn't have a long history of voting against military spending. One who just spoke to people rather than talking in puffed up congressional double-talk. One who Ralph Nader announced he would not run against.

A straight thinking, straight talking, moderate progressive. A doctor who drives a 93 Jeep.

Yeah, that woulda sucked.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
159. Dean was internally devisive... you either loved him or hated him...
...hardly anyone was neutral.
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malachibk Donating Member (780 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. In general, I agree, but...
I was pleased with Kerry's response today. Something like "When I'm president I won't be the last to know what's going on with those in my command." Succinct and strong. So maybe he's finally getting it: Highlight Each and Every Thing that bush Fucks Up.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. Yes, wonder if poster heard Kerry's speech today
it was really Very Good!

He looked & sounded trustworthy and Presidential.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
33. Looking and sounding Presidential...
are not the same as being Presidential. I have to agree with the poster...I will vote for Kerry but is more a vote against Bush than for Kerry.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #33
126. Yeah, too bad Kerry is also the lawmaker who has exposed more government
corruption than anyone else in modern history.

Odd that factor doesn't mean much to someone who is also trying to expose the corrupt. Guess you have no empathy for someone who did it for so long and even up against his own party.

How many could have withstood the onslaught against them that went on for years, and still managed to expose most of the corruption we know now today as the BFEE?
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #126
132. What happened to that John Kerry?
Where did he go? And how do we get him back?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #132
133. He's still there when you stop believing the distortions.
.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #133
134. Believe me...
I've watched countless hours of CSPAN, listened to Air America since the first day, and PBS, and to a lesser extent, CNN and the networks. But I have yet to see the same Kerry you describe.

I plan to vote for the 2004 Kerry -- there's no doubt of that, but the old liberal firebrand, IMO, is missing in action.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #134
138. He 's campaigning for president.
His policy positions on most issues are very progressive.

Liberals who know his lifetime record understand that those positions can best be sold to the average American while using the language of moderates.
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Daisey Mae Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. But Dean lost his bid to be the candidate.....
Dean is out now our only hope is KERRY Get behind him......or enjoy 4 more years in hell with BUSH......
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sventvkg Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Oh I'll vote for him...ANYONE is better then Bush.
But he just doesn't do it for me. Also, no one else I seem to know is that excited by him..I wonder why that is?...
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Daisey Mae Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
32. I felt the same as you about Dean.... I was saddened by his
not being the candidate.... you could say that I was in love with Dean and his message and I felt hurt when he didn't win,,,,, But the reason that Kerry IS the candidate is because HE did WIN.... That makes him a "winner" ,,,, Kerry is an astute politician and knows what is going on..... Right now is no time for Kerry to make waves and take the spotlight off of BUSH - and his "Travails with Rummie".....The Bush administration is on a roll of self destruction.... Kerry couldn't make more trouble for Bush than Bush is making for himself.................
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
38. "no one else I seem to know is that excited by him..I wonder why that is?
Because he is DULL!
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. I don't need him to excite me.
I just want him to win in November. All this griping isn't helping that.
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Daisey Mae Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #41
53. I totally agree.....
to get into one personality or another is like going to a basketball game and getting "ticked off" because my personal player did not make the winning basket, but another player on my team DID.... Don't take our eyes off the ball and get tied up in falling in love with this or that candidate.... That is fine for the Primarys...BUT NOW we are in the POLITICAL FINALS and our guy is Kerry.... You don't have to marry him you just have to help him make THAT WINNING BASKET.....
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #38
124. I think caring, intelligent men are EXTREMELY HOT and INTERESTING.
And I trust my instincts in the sizzle department.

You think Teresa couldn't have had just about any guy she wanted? She wouldn't choose a wet blanket.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #38
130. You've got an "exciting" President...
Maybe "dull" is what is needed for a while.

Sid
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
83. So instead we get 4 years in Purgatory with Kerry
Same old PNAC foreign policy pissing off the world, but hopefully a better domestic agenda. (Which won't mean a damn thing if actual terrorist attacks begin here because of the damage PNAC has caused)
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
118. I'm behind Kerry so I can kick his a**
and stab him in the back, if I can.

I'll vote for him in November because the alternative is a disaster, but I will never support Kerry.
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lastknowngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. I 100% agree if Kerry doesn't get a set of balls we may as well
start our escape tunnels because the shrub and the fascist who are supporting him will turn this into a concentration camp for people who have a conscious and expect to have any freedoms. I'm bummed and see no hope for my country. All nations fail but to have it just thrown away so the shrub and his minions can get a hard on by stealing everything from the sheeple and fooling them into cheering them on is disheartening.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. No balls?
The man fought in Vietnam. Geez
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hippiegranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
6. i think this thread belongs in GD: campaign 2004
i shouldn't even be giving it a bump by pointing that out...
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sventvkg Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I was making a general thought..I think it's fine in here.
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
7. The best thing: Kerry is no Bush*.
I rest my case.
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Wapsie B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. "liberals are becoming disenfranchised"
Really? How so? All I see are repugs showing signs of desperation, trying to protect a weak, unelected president.
But gosh, maybe you're right. No need to even show up at the polls.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. Yeah...Kerry doesn't seem to have to backtrack from his public statements
withing minutes after making them because he didn't bother to think before he answered...thank goodness...and he's more liberal too..that's a good thing in my book.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
54. Is that why you think he backtracked<sic>?
He backtracked<sic> because he was gangbanged by the media and his own party. Remember "We're not safer with Saddam's capture?" Gangbanged. But true. Or "We need to take an evenhanded approach with the P/I issue?" Gangbanged. But true. In both of these instances he was jumped on by his own party. You can't win when you're fighting both sides. And hey, guess what, the "Scream" was manufactured. And hey, guess what, he was pounded by his competition in the debates, whereas Kerry got a free ride once he was leading. Coinky-dink? I think not. That's a bad thing in my book.


Oh, and btw, about being "more liberal."

This represents both Dean and Kerry. http://www.issues2000.org/default.htm

The DLC, Kerry, Gephardt, Lieberman, Kucinich, Edwards and Sharpton all went after Dean. Who went after Kerry? Bush, the Washington Times and the media. But hey, they went after Dean, too. The Dean "Gaffes Meme" rings as hollow as the "Kerry Flip-Flop Meme." I know. I was there.


:hi:
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
12. No flame, but a little clarification...
I'm sorry but Kerry is no Dean...doesn't strike a chord

He obviously does with someone. He got the most votes. He is the nominee.

I believe many liberals are becoming disenfranchised

Liberals, or your version of who/what liberals are, are easily disenfranchised it seems.

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sventvkg Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. We are easily disenfranchised because no one seems to fix problems
Dem or Repub, that have easy common sense answers to them....and all politicians are beholden to the corporate intersts that is sickening....Should be beholden to the people and to what is right...But obviously i'm dreaming.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
50. no one seems to fix problems to your satisfaction
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. I sadly agree
For the 1st time in over thirty years, I was excited about a presidential candidate. I had high hopes that SOMETHING could be accomplished that would set our country on a healing path.

Now I have no faith. It will be more of the same, only in a "nuanced" way.

But, alas, TPTB have spoken - not We, the People.
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sventvkg Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. You get EXACTLY What I'm trying to say
:)...Although it's nothing to smile about.
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Who voted in the primaries? Not we the people?
We the majority of the people felt that Dean would lose to Bush and that Kerry could beat him. I'm sorry if that doesn't fit your fantasy but I thought so too.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Two states does NOT equal We, the People
And of those two states, I would love to have the NH "votes" examined. Ya know, paper vs BBV.

As I said, TPTB have spoken. It is unbelievably naive to think otherwise.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
39. "I would love to have the NH "votes" examined."
Me too...especially in light of Anthony Stevens comments to me...that "New Hampshire's machines are not federally certified"
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #39
85. And hey, when you're SOS could you take a peek at
Washington's. :tinfoilhat:
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #85
94. No need...they are uncertified as well
Edited on Fri May-07-04 12:14 AM by God_bush_n_cheney
already checked it. Nextweek the next domino will fall.

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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #94
98. I always liked a good game of dominoes.
Luck to ya.
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #39
119. Go back and read the blog of the guy who started all this
bullshit, his "analysis" was completely annihilated with logic. The guy knew nothing about NH, voting patterns or media markets. He just didn't like the results, like many here, and had no qualms about casting aspersions with zero facts.

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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #119
139. Did I refer to a Blog?
No...in fact I refered to the NH secretary of states office. Straight from the horses mouth so to speak! The blog is irrelavent. The machines were not federally certified.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #16
116. The DNC and the media spun Dean in his downfall.
Edited on Fri May-07-04 08:36 AM by Cascadian
If he was not so hot then why was he leading the polls before the primaries? It seemed very odd to me that a man who had such momentum all of sudden lost it around the first primary. He was the right man and if it weren't for dirty tactic, he would be the one as the front runner and he would not have taken the crap that Bush's camp are throwing at Kerry right now.


John
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
31. Sorry you're disappointed that the centrist governor is not the nominee.
I am thrilled that the two most liberal candidates survived and that Kerry will be the nominee.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #31
88. Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true.



Dean and Kerry.


www.issues2000.org



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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #88
123. Haha...Someone's CHART tells you what's true or not?
There are charts that show Kerry way to the left of Dean and yet there are so many Deanies complaining about Kerry being too much of a centrist for them.

So, I guess the problem is that there are a certain number of these folks who are just incomprehensive or are deliberately misdirecting others with their posts against Kerry?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #123
131. Go to the site and read how they come to their conclusion.
It's quite detailed. And tell me if they don't give it a fair reading. It's not just a chart, it's a chart whose value I have explored.

Show me your charts. I'll give them a fair reading.

I think that it's fair to say that Kerry has been moving slowly to the center over the last 8 years or so. Disagree? He's more of a hawk and he's less regulatory, to name just two. Dean's liberalism is less one of policy than one of moving the party out from underneath the negative influence of the DLC'ers and giving voice to the base as opposed to the elite few. I think Dean and Kerry are very similar policywise(I'd like to see both of them move left, though) but Dean was clearly more progressive in his vision for how the party would be dictated to. Will it be the play it safe, don't rock the boat apparatchiks or will it be the tell it like it is, politically bold visionaries? Policy vs. Polity. Lieberman vs. Kucinich. DLC vs. DFA. DNC vs. MoveOn. This is the milieu of which I speak.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #131
135. That's YOUR view. I think Dean was centrist who
got caught up with the rhetoric of the left while not fully believing it himself. His record as a centrist governor and his record of disdain for leftist activism belied his style of campaigning chosen for the primary.

I also think many are wrong when they say Dean entered the race to change the direction of the party. Dean has been planning to run for president since 1997. He governed as a centrist throughout his tenure ending Jan 2003. When Dean first started actively running in 2002 he was touting his centrism. Only after the antiwar crowds grew did Dean alter his rhetoric to appeal more to the left.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #135
142. Charts?
I think it's quite possible that the Dean campaign was based only in rhetoric and political expediency. One of my great fears. We may never know, although DFA speaks volumes. That being said, his funding paradigm allowed him a freedom never seen before. I don't think he entered the race to change the direction of the party, I think it was a function of the campaign dynamic that he found on the trail. The facts on the ground changed his viewpoint. He's said as much. Could be true, could be political bullshit. :shrug: Wouldn't the phenomena that met him change your perception, too?

How long has Kerry been planning his run?

Has Kerry moved to the center over the last 8 years?

Did not Kerry change his rhetoric after he saw Dean's initial success?

Do you find any fault at all with Kerry?

These charts you speak of? I want to see them.










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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #142
143. Those charts were posted dozens of times here at DU.
Edited on Fri May-07-04 12:18 PM by blm
I can't do archive right now, but, the chart posted most often here at DU showed Braun and Kerry to the left of Dean. Dean was actually equal to Edwards on that chart.

I have a lunch date with a three year old, so I'll catch up later. You know I welcome exchanges with you, RIF. ;)
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #143
144. Please come back and answer my questions.
I wasn't just asking about charts.

Bon apetit.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #144
151. Keepin' her kicked for answers.
:kick:
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #143
161. Big Wheel keep on turnin', proud answers comin' fortha




:kick:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #161
164. Try post 153.
.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #164
168. My bad.
Missed it.



FORMAL RETRACTION
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #168
170. EEEyowtch........
.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #142
153. I would guess that Kerry has been planning the run since Jan 2001.
I think Kerry supported legislation after 9-11 that many perceive as being more centrist. I also think he supported some legislation important to Clinton that he wasn't necessarily behind 100% but saw enough in the legislation that he could support.

Kerry never changed his rhetoric to be like Dean. That was horseshit observations from horseshit pundits who never listened to Kerry in the first place. Kerry never had to be rhetorical like Dean because he actually HAD a lengthy record of liberal and progressive governance while Dean had to ramp up the lefty rhetoric because he had a lengthy record of governing as a centrist.

I find fault in Kerry and his campaign that they didn't shut down the Dean machine much earlier. I would have liked all his distortions exposed, especially the fact that he was no more antiwar than Kerry as per his support of Biden-Lugar at the same time of the IWR vote. I think allowing Dean to foster that image has caused some unnecessary damage to the Dem party, as evidenced in the many threads here at DU day in and day out.

I also think that there are some in Kerry's campaign who should be kept off television and I've said as much many times here at DU. Sorry you missed it.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #153
154. Damaged the party?
I think allowing Dean to foster that image has caused some unnecessary damage to the Dem party, as evidenced in the many threads here at DU day in and day out.

You say that Dean damaged the Dem party? Without the "Dean Machine" as you called it, we might very well have LIEBERMAN as the nominee, because that's where the Dems were.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #154
156. His supporters who can't transition, not necessarily Dean himself.
I actually believe that Dean is well aware of what part of his campaign got out of hand and has every intention of making up for it. Some of his supporters who continue to dump on Kerry have not followed this lead.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #156
157. We're voting for Kerry
What the hell else do you want? A blood oath?

We criticize because WE WANT HIM TO WIN! It's IMPORTANT! You do agree about that, don't you?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #157
162. Most do want him to win, some don't.
And some of those who post here savaging Kerry day in and day out know that I am referring to them.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #153
165. So...
9-11
Horseshit
Didn't shut down sooner
Biden Lugar
Careful TV


Got it.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
45. If Bush does win....
Edited on Thu May-06-04 08:45 PM by Cascadian
those who backed Dean and are of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party will have their worst fears confirmed. The party will be nothing more than a token opposition party in a nation that is no longer a democracy but a "deMOCKERY". The people who back the old mushy DLC will still want the status quo even if the Democrats lose. It will be time to start a coup within the party in order to save it. Those who back the DLC have no clue to what they are doing to the Democratic Party. They are there to "neutralize" the party, thus making it weak and giving the advantage to the Republicans.

John
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #45
65. I'm sorry (clears throat...)
Edited on Thu May-06-04 10:43 PM by wyldwolf
bwahahahahahahahahaha...

the DLC... are there to "neutralize" the party, thus making it weak and giving the advantage to the Republicans.

Stop it! Yer killin' me! You need to take that act on the road!

Dean? The proooogreeeesive wing of the party? FUNNY!

So what if Bush doesn't win?

Will the reverse of what you wrote be true?
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #65
113. Read this....
http://www.progressive.org/nich1000.htm

If they are not "neutralizing" the party, then you tell me what they are doing.


John
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #113
169. Editorial
... that uses Nader and Hightower as sources - one of which would benefit greatly from a DNC or DLC breakdown.

And remember, no one gets power unless they are being voted for. It should be obvious that the DLC - which is just an organization made up of democrats and not an official arm of the DNC - fields candidates and gets votes.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
18. If Dean had stayed in the race and had been the nominee...
He would have been declared officially and clinically insane because of his "scream". The media would have talked about it non-stop. It's nice to dream though... :)

By the way, Kerry beat all the other candidates fair and square. I'm willing to accept that the people spoke.
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sventvkg Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Will he beat the Republican attack Machine????
Will he pull out of Iraq and let the UN replace us if elected? I doubt it.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. I doubt it also....
But I will feel much better with an intelligent person in charge....just my opinion.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
47. The media distorted Dean.
Primarily, it was a character assassination. Thanks, CNN for ruining Dean's chances.


John
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #47
69. They also distorted Gore and Kerry....
That is an accepted....
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #47
125. For most of 2003 the media distorted Dean's support with real voters.
For much of 2003 the media declared Kerry's campaign dead, assuring that his campaign funding would dry up.

Kerry PULLED THROUGH...DESPITE the media.
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
20. He didn't even vote today...and...
he has missed several key votes that were important to the left. Is this the kind of leadership we want?
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. As a point of fact...
Kerry has missed more votes than any other Senator in history.
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #36
52. I'm running out of reasons to vote for him.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. But by God we will vote for him because he has a "D"
after his name right? :eyes:
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #56
76. So does LIEberman
I would never vote for him and I am finding it more and more difficult to support Kerry.

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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #56
114. If Adolf Hitler was running as Democrat....
some people would have no qualms to vote for him.

:eyes:

John
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #56
129. yep..

damn straight
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #52
127. Why, were you FOR government corruption?
Are you FOR corporations funding campaigns?
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #127
141. I'm not...
but John is.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #141
145. you have a post above to answer.
In your recent efforts you have only faced 1% of what Kerry has already gone through and the obstacles he faced. Your lack of empathy is perplexing. YOU consider yourself the better man, the better patriot, the better citizen for your efforts, while demeaning what Kerry faced?
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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
21. "Dems?"
"liberals?"
"Kerry is no Dean?"
couple-hundred posts.

you do the math.
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gpandas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. you gotta win to win n/t
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
23. On the bright side, no pearls either ("found Christ" OBL is innocent")
You guys rewrite history remembering only the press's harping on the scream, but tend to forget the secret documents, the "welcome to US Army - drugged, fat, long haired", the confederate flags, the "kids are not transferable"...
It's when I remember this stuff I welcome Kerry's blandness. Also, when I remember the nasty, ferocious attitude of the true believers, I am glad they "don't have that power" anymore.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
26. Being Honest....

...Well, I honestly think you're wrong. Thanks for your concern about the "disenfranchised". Vote your conscience.
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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
30. Crikey! Dean lost several months ago.
I supported Dean throughout 2003. However, Kerry defeated Dean with inferior man-power and fundraising, so I guess he cannot be that uninspiring, eh?

:beer:
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
89. Inferior manpower?
He had the whole party behind him.

But hey, who's bitter? :beer:
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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #89
171. The establishment was divided three ways.
They were divided between Kerry, Gephardt, and Lieberman. The entrance of Clark into the race watered things down further. In contrast, Dean had hundreds of thousands of activists and a 40 million dollar warchest.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
34. The man won the primary race
He is the Democratic nominee. He will be a great liberal president. You will all see this if we can get him elected. So stop being bummed and get out and do something to help us win in November. You'll feel better then :)
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. I am doing something
to get progressive Dems elected for Congress. That is our only hope to have our voices heard. Kerry has already proven in the past year, he ain't gonna lift an elitest finger for progressive causes or to turn our country towards the light.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. AMEN!
Draft Dean!
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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
42. I understand the disappointment
I love Howard Dean and wish he could be president. Or Dennis Kusinich. But the truth is that they are just seen as too left to be elected by the majority of Americans at this point in history. That's sad and hard to accept. But, with all due respect, I believe some of the fault is our own. We weren't paying attention when the right had their little, or should I say "vast" conspiracy going. They managed to convince a large number of people to accept their ideology but they worked hard to do it while we sat back and let them take over the media! We're generally nice people so we didn't yell as loud and push our agenda as hard. Some of us, myself included just believed that since our side was right that it would prevail in the end and didn't do much to see that it did.
Dropping out in frustration because our dream candidate didn't win is non-productive and with all due respect, I think just a little cowardly. We have to fight back and work to push the people, that is public opinion (which is what will get a progressive elected) back to the left with information and education and whatever the hell else it takes. If John Kerry is the first step we can actually achieve at this point it is at least a point far ahead of where we are now! I believe he's a decent, intelligent man and I think people are starting to wake up. Our side is ready for a fight. It might take longer than we like but I intend to keep right on fighting beyond any Kerry candidacy and maybe someday Howard Dean will be our president. He's not all that old you know.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Howard Dean is not "too left"
in fact, Dean's record as governor is rather moderate. He's dynamic, outspoken, smart and charismatic, but Kerry's record is more liberal. Not saying that's better/worse.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Is the Patriot Act liberal? How about war?
If so...I will leave the Democratic party now.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. I know you're focused on those two votes
but in their overall records, Dean has been more moderate. Not saying there's anything wrong with that.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. See post 36...for a more complete
record.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. Maybe those are two votes Kerry should have missed
along with all the other ones...

RL
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
43. I could not agree with you more.
Edited on Thu May-06-04 08:37 PM by Cascadian
I honestly hope Kerry does win for the sake of saving the country and the world. However, I cannot help but notice that people even on the Democratic side of things tend to overationalize the shortcomings of their leaders. That is a naive and dangerous thing. The multinationals have too much money invested in both parties and that makes this democracy more of "demockery". Kerry is a part of the status quo and I still cannot forgive him for backing Bush's war and the Patriot Act. At least Dean was a maverick and was wiling to stand up for the principles of the party.

John
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sventvkg Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
46. I'm not Waxing nostalgic for Dean i'm saying Kerry doesn't have
Deans Charisma..That extra passion that gets us excited and creates a stir to action...And in my opinion even though there will never be any proof of it, I think he was done in somehow..The exit polls in NH Did not anywhere near match the results...I think the fix was in from the corporate controlled DNC...Oh, but you'll just say i'm insane, wont ya? It's no more insane then to dispute electronic voting when it comes to a Repug beating a dem, is it?
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. He's what we have and we have to hope that he's the man for the time
and will "grow" into the job. Maybe even be good.

What else do we have, here? Nader? :-(
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #46
66. Kerry doesn't have passion that gets us excited and stirred to action?
Didn't he get more votes than Dean?
Didn't he just set a couple of fundraising records?


Sounds like a lot of people have been stirred to action...
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Stirred by Bush or by Kerry?
Something to ponder.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Nothing to ponder there
Edited on Thu May-06-04 10:55 PM by wyldwolf
Kerry got more votes than Dean in the primaries.

This is a fact.

All some can do is mutter conspiracy theories about the vote being rigged for Kerry then spouting off emotional ramblings about faux liberal saviour Howard Dean.

Face it:

People were more stirred by Kerry than by Dean.
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. My "something to ponder" had nothing to do with Dean.
n/t
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
60. You mean he doesn't lose his cool and start screaming?
Good.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #60
91. Still buying into the bullshit, I see.
You must have seen the unedited video by now. Yet, still you persist. You're only fooling yourself. Good luck. :hi:
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
61. You have lots of company
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
62. I'm voting for Kerry because he's not Bush.
Period.

I was a registered Independent. Howard Dean inspired me to change my affiliation to Democrat and become involved in Democratic politics here in Florida. I'd wager that he inspired a whole lot of other people too, out of sheer passion, common sense and track record.

We can wax nostalgic all we want. We can complain about a broken primary system that essentially lets eight states decide the outcome (it was long over before I even had a chance to vote). We can complain about the media's character assassination of Dean. We can complain that all of the other Dem candidates attacked Dean instead of Bush.

But that complaining doesn't get us anywhere from here. Kerry is the nominee, and he's our only hope of getting Bush out of office.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
63. "Kerry doesn't strike a chord" seems like a lame reason
to become disenfranchised from liberalism.

If Kerry doesn't strike a chord for you, how about these options:

Supreme Court
Illegal invasion and occupation of another country
Trashing the U.S. economy
Trashing public education
Replacing science with one-sided religious ideology and intolerance
Allowing terrorist attacks to happen
Being responsible for atrocities committed by American troops

All those things strike a chord with me, and the chord is ringing out, very clearly, that there is a role for liberals to play in this election.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Do you believe in the Easter Bunny too?
I have about as faith in the Easter Bunny as I have faith that Kerry will do anything to prevent what is in your laundry list.

He provides no hope, no inspiration, no solutions to WORK for a better America. Maybe "work" is the definitive word, cause he sure ain't working at his present job.

Thanks for your vote today, Kerry!

What's that you say? He din't vote? Again?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. And Dean would be better on that "laundry list?"
Please...

He provides no hope, no inspiration...

More votes than Dean... and set several fundraising records last month.

Sounds like people are inspired.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. Yes, Dean would be better
A hell of a lot better!

At least Dean is AWAKE.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #75
112. you have no proof he'd be better.. only your emotional attachment to him
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #67
95. "He din't vote? Again?"
Of course not...he was off looking "Presidential".
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
64. Well. that's just silly
Edited on Thu May-06-04 10:41 PM by mitchum

Kerry is the presumptive nominee thanks to the Democrats of FAR MORE THAN JUST TWO STATES
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
74. Nice. The f@cking campaign has barely started and you are a defeatist.
I will flame away. At least wait until the debates (if Bush agrees to debate Kerry) before you start that defeatist crap.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #74
82. Remember that some folks get paid to disrupt.
I'm not making any accusations, just pointing out the fact.

There are firms that hire people to disrupt and influence internet sites to promote their customer's points of view. I'm sure that the Republican attack machine has people on their payroll whose job is to start trouble on sites like DU.

Hell, the Democrats probably do the same thing. I do the same thing for free on freeper boards.

It's not worth getting upset about.
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Oddman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
77. Sorry folks
bush would have had a field day with Dean . . . the polls right now would be bush 62% Dean 20% Nader 14%

I like Dean - but he would lose big time!



bush is my hero, he gave me a $30 tax cut so I could get a case of beer
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Uhh...yeah.
Cuz Dean was against the war. What a moran. What a field day that would have been.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
78. Yeah, but what's done is done.
Dean's been right about just about everything, and I suspect that he's right about supporting Kerry, too. We're in a shitty situation, now, but we're just going to have to deal with it. Bill Schneider called Dean "unelectable" over and over, and the voters fell for it. That's just what happened, and it's where we are.

Kerry now has this election, and the future of our country, on his shoulders. If he blows it, he and the Democratic primary voters will share the blame. To me, it's unbelievable how close this race is considering how badly Bush has screwed up. But, we're just going to have to wait until November to see what happens.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
80. What good are these whinefests?
Does it make people feel better somehow?
Does it accomplish anything?
Does it change the results of the primaries?
Does it advance any cause whatsoever?
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. I think most of us are rallying behind Kerry.
But I'll be honest, the man just doesn't inspire me like Dean does. Just an opinion that apparently other people share.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Is the goal to get people "inspired?"
I don't think this is any way to accomplish that. It just breeds more disaffection and complaining.
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
81. To be fair to Kerry...
...I saw him speak live at the Florida Dem convention last year, and he is a much more dynamic speaker in person than the way he comes across on TV. He's just not very telegenic (although the tan/Botox helps I guess).

I was actually pleasantly surprised with Kerry back then, at a time when Dean was far and away the frontrunner.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
87. Then may I suggest an alternative?
Ralph Nader.
If you're gonna hate yourself in the morning for pulling the non-Dean lever, might as well go all the way, no?
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #87
92. No.
EOM
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #87
93. No
Not voting for Kerry does not mean voting for Nader.

I'm holding my primary ballot in my hand now. It has a space where you can draw the arrow to - write-in, while there is no "Nader".

I am happily voting for "write-in".
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #93
96. Such a
Edited on Fri May-07-04 12:30 AM by God_bush_n_cheney
Bad Girl...

GO head...vote for Kerry. Just take a shower afterwards and all will be fine.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #96
115. Hey, to paraphrase Bill Maher...
You don't have to FUCK him, just VOTE for him!

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MidwestMomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
90. Kerry may not be Dean, but more importantly, Kerry is not Bush
Then thing is Kerry must be elected in the fall. Bottom line.

We must send a message to the world that Americans DO NOT support the policies of this administration.

We, the American people, must demonstrate to the world that we do not have our collective heads up our ass.

As someone who was quoted from the Middle East said, America must wake up from it's coma.

That gave me hope that the Arab world realizes that we are not beyond hope. That 'we' are not the enemy, but as of now, a passive audience for the wrong-headed policies of this administration. However, if we waiver in our determination to oust Bush from the White House, then what excuse do we have?

Maybe some of us do not find Kerry inspiring, but look at it from the world's perception. He may be the best thing that could ever happen for a lot people of the world.

Thanks for listening. Please give my words consideration.


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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #90
97. "Americans DO NOT support the policies of this administration. "
I agree whole heartedly...However...Kerry has supported whistleass' policies. Remember Kerry voted for this damned war, and several other policies...when he was there to vote.
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #97
99. "Kerry voted for this damned war" is a bit simplistic, don't you think?
I know we've had this debate before here at DU so I won't go into it.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #99
100. There is nothing simplistic about voting for war
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #100
101. No there isn't...
but Kerry voted for it. The language in the resolution is quite clear. But hey...Kerry looks so Presidential...wouldn't you say Pastiche? And besides...Dean was "unelectable" the DLC said it so it must be true.

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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #101
102. Bull. The resolution presented military force as a last option to be
Edited on Fri May-07-04 12:48 AM by Redleg
taken when other means failed. The Democratic members of Congress pushed for greater UN involvement and a new inspection regime to prevent Bush from having his war. Many of the Dems felt betrayed when Bush circumvented what they thought were reasonable steps to avoid war. Also consider that military force could have been used in other ways besides the way Bush chose. We could have attempted to destroy the suspected WMD sites without actually occupying the country.

I would have thought you liberals would be able to understand the nuances of the situation, unlike our right-wing opponents who only see things as black and white.

As for Kerry looking presidential, what is your point? Is choosing a president like choosing the prom king?
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #102
103. The text of the resolution is quite clear...
Edited on Fri May-07-04 12:56 AM by God_bush_n_cheney
"SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--

(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and

(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

(2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001."
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #103
104. Yes it is clear- it is also clear that Bush could have chosen to not
invade Iraq. It is also clear that he didn't need a resolution to invade Iraq- he could have done it without the resolution. Consider also that the congress members who approved the resolution did so partly because they were deceived by the Bush administration and partly because they didn't want another 9-11 to happen.

One can be for the resolution of use of force (which can come in many forms, not just an invasion) and be completely against the manner in which Bush planned and executed the war.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #104
105. The old...they were lied to meme...
Edited on Fri May-07-04 01:12 AM by God_bush_n_cheney
Kerry more than anyone should have known better! It would have taken far more courage for him to vote NO than yes. Nice try...however I will NEVER forgive him for that vote!

As I have said...I will vote for the bastard but it is a vote against Bush and not FOR Kerry. Then I will watch Kerry continue on the path Bush has set. Only with a kinder gentler face. :eyes:


edit: Oh and did they think the troops massed on the Iraq border would not be used? Come on...you can't believe they are that fucking gullible...
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #105
106. Drop the meme b.s. I can think for myself- I don't need to repeat
Edited on Fri May-07-04 01:17 AM by Redleg
what I hear from other people. My understanding of the resolution, at the time it was being debated, was that it did not give Bush a blank check to do what the hell he wanted. The idea was to apply more pressure to Saddam to allow the inspectors back in and to permit more aggressive inspections. The threat of force was to be used as a backup.

You don't believe the Bush lies about WMDs and Iraqi complicity in 9-11 influenced how people voted on the resolution?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. At least you will be voting against Bush.

Peace
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #106
107. Ah but it did give him a blank check...
and therein lies the rub.
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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #106
109. More aggressive inspections?
The idea was to apply more pressure to Saddam to allow the inspectors back in and to permit more aggressive inspections.

Let's see, what did we have without the resolution to authorize force:

- Murderous sanctions? check!
- CIA infiltration of the inspection teams? check!
- Effective partition of the country? check!
- Daily attacks on Iraqi military targets and infrastructure? check!
- Desert Fox? check!
- Unilateral US control of the inspection regime? check!

Boy, that resolution was sure to be used just to untie the poor president's hands a bit. Who would've thought he'd actually use all the fricking troops that were being sent into the region at the time!

Time to stop serving as apologists for our country's shortcomings when these shortcomings are the result of bipartisan, rather than repuke only, policies.
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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #104
108. Sure
One can be for the resolution of use of force (which can come in many forms, not just an invasion) and be completely against the manner in which Bush planned and executed the war.

With tens of thousands of troops already in the theater by then, only a fucking retard wouldn't have seen the writing on the wall. Those who voted for this resolution took an active part in creating the mess we're in.
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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #99
110. Kerry's vote for war=political cowardice. Bottom line. n/t
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
111. WhAAAAAA!
It's over. Dean was a good guy and he was absolutely right about the war on Iraq, but he lost.

If you want to do something useful you coin join his PAC/movement/DFA thing. It's trying to help get progressives/liberals elected to congress.

Dean is trying to be productive. I wish some of his supporters would also get a hint, rather than bitching about something that can't be changed like the nominee. Kerry wasn't the first choice of many, but he'll be a billion times greater than the mess we have now.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
117. 'No child left awake'
The only anti-Kerry line I ever laughed at. I had no choice. Its funny as hell, and it fits him perfectly.
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EV1Ltimm Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
120. maybe dean doesn't strike a chord
... with the rest of america since he isn't going to win the nom?

:shrug:

don't get me wrong, i liked dean from the get-go, but i also like mayo on my french fries.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
121. yeeeeaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!
And then we're goin' ......

I think Dean is wild and crazy. I like that. But that's not
what we need right now.
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #121
122. I agree with that sentiment.
And as much as I hate to admit it, getting Bush out is more important than idealism. Baby steps.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
128. Let me throw out some flame bait...but don't flame me!


Gotchya!
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oc2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
136. Lets get this STRAIGHT, I AM VOTING AGAINST BUSH NOT FOR KERRY

Its either Kerry or 4 more years of Bush.

Kerry is moving away from the Democratic Base, going foolishly for the Bush Republican base, which will never, ever support him. At the same time, he is losing the Democratic wing of the Democratic party.

Go figure.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
137. funny, I've been wanting to broach the subject of bush and kerry
being bones and skull members. how do we know that kerry isn't just covering bush's ass. he was damned fired up when dean was out front, but now he's gone back to being kerrrrrrrrrrrrrryzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
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Castilleja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
140. I have to agree with your honesty,
and your sentiment.
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
146. I just had my mind changed- screw Kerry- he is the most evil SOB
Edited on Fri May-07-04 04:04 PM by Redleg
in the world because he forced Bush to go to war in Iraq. Oh wait, Kerry didn't force Bush to war? Oh well.
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PretzelWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
147. HEEEYYYAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! you're right
and that's probably a good thing if we want to win this thing.
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karabekian Donating Member (287 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
148. yeah not so exciting
seems like his personal ambition is paramount to him. With dean you had the fire in the gut and a consistant message. Plus he really is just bush light.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #148
149. No, sorry. Junior is "Bush light".
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #148
150. "Kerry is Bush light" is a joke, right?
Look at Kerry's voting record across all the issues. This crap about Kerry's personal ambitions is also just more of the anti-Gore b.s. from the last presidential election.
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karabekian Donating Member (287 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #150
155. look at his voting record on
Edited on Fri May-07-04 05:38 PM by karabekian
Iraq war
No Child left Behind
Patriot Act
Nafta

(oh never mind he was against it when he voted for it or something right?)

then take in the fact that he has missed so many senate vote because he wants to be president. I think I am right on. You just don't like my observations.


I am sorry but my vote goes to someone who represents me and my views instead of some letter next to their name. Candidates have to earn my vote. They don't get it just because they happen to be a Democrat. Thats why its nader for me like it was nader in 2000.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #155
158. Another Bush supporter heard from.
They're really getting nervous. Don't blame them.

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karabekian Donating Member (287 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #158
160. so i am a bush supporter because i don't like kerry
Edited on Fri May-07-04 05:58 PM by karabekian
and call him on the holes in his voting record? Oh no I don't march in exact step with the DLC. I must be a freeper :-(

Thats kind of a weak response to my valid points.
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #160
173. You discuss 4 votes out of many that Kerry has made in the Senate.
You call that a voting record? How many votes did Nader make- oh, I forgot- not having been elected to national office he has the advantage of being able to criticize others' voting records but doesn't have to defend his own.
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #155
172. I guess you must be superior to the rest of us dummies
who are going to vote for Kerry. I hope you enjoy the next 4 years of Bush. Then maybe you Naderites will finally figure out there really is a difference between Dems and Republicans.
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
163. ok.....
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karabekian Donating Member (287 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #163
166. haha
great site. Call me old fashion but principle matters more than winning. Your in for a disapointment if you think that much will change at all under a kerry admin.
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:06 PM
Original message
I know that principle matters a lot
but not more than winning. The important thing is to find balance between the two. The balance this time falls more on the side of winning because this administration has to be stopped at all costs. Things may not be much better under Kerry, but at least they will stop getting worse. Sometimes its enough to turn away an attack on your country until you can counter-attack. Being on the offensive all the time isn't effective enough
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #166
167. I know that principle matters a lot
but not more than winning. The important thing is to find balance between the two. The balance this time falls more on the side of winning because this administration has to be stopped at all costs. Things may not be much better under Kerry, but at least they will stop getting worse. Sometimes its enough to turn away an attack on your country until you can counter-attack. Being on the offensive all the time isn't effective enough
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #167
174. Kerry is fine just the way he is. Who on earth is perfect. Kerry will bury
Bush with a landslide
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