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The War is Lost. The War is Lost. The War is Lost.

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:32 PM
Original message
The War is Lost. The War is Lost. The War is Lost.
We have traveled a long, dark, strange road since the attacks of September 11. We have all suffered, we have all known fear and anger, and sometimes hatred. Many of us have felt probably more than are willing to admit it many of us have felt at one time or another a desire for revenge, so deep was the wound inflicted upon us during that wretched, unforgettable Tuesday morning in September of 2001.

But we have come now to the end of a week so awful, so terrible, so wrenching that the most basic moral fabric of that which we believe is good and great the basic moral fabric of the United States of America has been torn bitterly asunder. We are awash in photographs of Iraqi men not terrorists, just people Lying in heaps on cold floors with leashes around their necks. We are awash in photographs of men chained so remorselessly that their backs are arched in agony, men forced to masturbate for cameras, men forced to pretend to have sex with one another for cameras, men forced to endure attacks from dogs, men with electrodes attached to them as they stand, hooded, in fear of their lives.

For the world entire, this is America today. It cannot be dismissed as an anomaly, for these reasons. It went on and on and on in the Abu Ghraib prison. And according to the British press, there are some 30 other cases of torture and humiliation under investigation. The Bush administration went out of its way to cover up this disgrace, declaring secret the Army report on these atrocities. That, pointedly, is against the rules and against the law. You cant call something classified just because it is embarrassing and disgusting. It was secret, but now it is out, and the whole world has been shown the dark, scabrous underbelly of George Bushs definition of freedom.

The beginnings of actual political fallout over this mess has begun to find its way into the White House. Representative John Murtha of Pennsylvania, the House Democrats most visible defense hawk, joined Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi to make public his previously private statements that the conflict is unwinnable. This new approach came as lawmakers on both sides of the Capitol grappled with how to respond to the stunning photos of Iraqi prisoners being abused, and braced for debate over a $25 billion additional appropriation for military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Pelosis most trusted ally on military issues and a senior defense appropriator, Murtha, a Vietnam veteran, sent a shockwave through the Caucus when he told Members at a leaders luncheon Tuesday that under the current Bush administration course the United States cannot win the war in Iraq. The term unwinnable is widely viewed among Members as a major shift in the Caucus message on the conflict, especially from a veteran, pro-military Member who supported the U.S. role in Iraq.

Unwinnable. Well, it only took about 14 months.

Also in the Capitol today, Pelosi along with several other Democrats called for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's resignation because of the Iraq torture scandal. Pelosi accused Rumsfeld of being "in denial about Iraq," and said U.S. soldiers "are suffering great casualties and injuries, and American taxpayers are paying an enormous price" because Rumsfeld "has done a poor job as secretary of defense." "Secretary Rumsfeld must resign," she said. Representative Charlie Rangel, a lead critic of the Iraq invasion, said Thursday that he will seek Rumsfeld's impeachment if the administration's chief war planner does not resign.

So theres the heat. But let us consider the broader picture here in the context of that one huge word: Unwinnable. Why did we do this in the first place. There have been several reasons offered over the last 16 months for why we needed to do this thing. It started, for real, in January 2003 when George W. Bush said in his State of the Union speech that Iraq was in possession of 26,000 liters of anthrax, 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin, 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX, 30,000 munitions to deliver this stuff, and that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger to build nuclear bombs.

That reason has been scratched off the list because, as has been made painfully clear now, there are no such weapons in Iraq. The Niger claim, in particular, has caused massive embarrassment for America because it was so farcical, and has led to a federal investigation of this White House because two administration officials took revenge upon Joseph Wilsons wife for Wilsons exposure of the lie. Next on the list was September 11, and the oft-repeated allusions that Saddam Hussein must have been at least partially responsible. That one collapsed as well Bush himself had to come out and say Saddam had nothing to do with it.

Two reasons down, so the third must be freedom and liberty for the Iraqi people. Once again, however, facts have interfered with the quest. America does not want a democratic Iraq, because a democratic Iraq would quickly become a Shiite fundamentalist Iraq allied with the Shiite fundamentalist nation of Iran, a strategic situation nobody with a brain wants to see come to pass. It has been made clear that whatever the new Iraqi government comes to look like, it will have no power to make any laws of any kind, it will have no control over the security of Iraq, and it will have no power over the foreign troops which occupy their soil. This is, perhaps, some bizarre new definition of democracy not yet in the dictionary, but it is not democracy by any currently accepted definition I have ever heard of.

Sothe reason to go to war because of weapons of mass destruction is destroyed. The reason to go to war because of connections to September 11 is destroyed. The reason to go to war in order to bring freedom and democracy to Iraq is destroyed. What is left? The one reason that has been unfailingly flapped around by defenders of this administration and supporters of this war: Saddam Hussein was a terrible, terrible man. He killed his own people. He tortured his own people. The Iraqis are better off without him, and so the war is justified.

And here, now, is the final excuse destroyed. We have killed more than 10,000 innocent Iraqi civilians in this invasion, and maimed countless others. The photos from Abu Ghraib prison show that we, like Saddam Hussein, torture and humiliate the Iraqi people. Worst of all, we do this in the same prison Hussein used to do the torturing. We are the killers now. We are the torturers now. We have achieved a moral equivalence with the Butcher of Baghdad, and we have done so for all the world to see.

This war is lost. I mean not just the Iraq war, but this ridiculous War on Terror as a whole. Every reason to go to Iraq has failed to retain even a semblance of credibility. Every bit of propaganda Osama bin Laden gave the Muslim world for why America should be attacked and destroyed has been validated by what has taken place in Iraq. Victory in this War on Terror, a propaganda war from the beginning, has been handed to the September 11 attackers by the hand of George W. Bush. The war is lost. The war is lost. The war is lost.
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. In the famous words of John Cleese:
Edited on Thu May-06-04 05:40 PM by PurityOfEssence
It's people like you whut cause unrest.

The bottom line of the whole problem is that when you say you're better than other people, you have to be better than other people.

For some reason, as long as "Saddam was worse", far too many people think it's all okay. It isn't. We took a stable (okay, stable BAD, but stable nonetheless) situation, tore it wide open with no provocation, and have made everything unpredictable and dangerous. Totalitarian states suck, but there aren't very many carjackings, kidnappings, murders, home invasions and other hobbies.

We said we were better; we're not.

I want to see that footage of Junior saying that the rape rooms are closed, and I want to see it regularly.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. America is better than this
Edited on Thu May-06-04 07:29 PM by BeFree
God, I fear the loss of my country this day. Where has it gone and who led it astray?

For months now, our leaders have known what happened in our newest prison. Yet they hid it, and kept it from our democratic republic in a way that seems to condone what was going on. Seems to condone. What was going on.

These leaders are not the kind of leaders I grew up thinking America was made from. "I can not tell a lie" the first GW is said to have claimed. Yet this new GW* only lies, and lies, and lies. Where has my country gone? I want it back!
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
102. Geo. Washington kept slaves through fraud instead of freeing them, ok?
When Philadelphia was the nation's capital, Washington stayed in a large house there that has since been torn down.

He brought with him many of his slaves as servants. Slaves who stayed over 6 months in that city were supposed to become free. So good old George 'I cannot tell a lie' Washington would rotate them out at the last minute to prevent them gaining their freedom.

Nice scam, ay?
I see perfect consistency between that George and this one.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
67. Abu Ghraib incident exposes *W* for dim bulb that he is...
n/t
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #67
101. No. It exposes Americans, all of us, for what we are. Ignorant and violent
We at du can be self-congratulatory for having educated ourselves against the lies that kill.

But most of the American public is complicit in the atrocities perpetrated by those ignorant enough to be shipped off to hell to deliver even more hell to more innocent victims.

Every American who is watching sports and sitcoms instead of learning what the fuck is going on is a killer. Every one.

Another thousand years of the Crusades to come. God Forgive America.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. The truth shall set us free
Propaganda is nothing when up against truth.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. So they classified it as secret, huh?
I wonder why?
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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. It sure is... and we all lost.
This nation, as a whole, has a lot of soul-searching to do...
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:44 PM
Original message
The logical approach...
...would have been to treat 9-11 as a 'criminal act' and not as an act of war by a bunch of terrorists 'hiding in caves'.

- Instead...Bush's* response was to drop bombs that eliminated very few terrorists but killed thousands of mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. As a freeper posted today...
...the War on Terror is over, bring the soldiers home and call in the lawyers...
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PaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
47. Did the freepers nail
his ass for posting that? I bet there was hell..Do you have the url for this...it might be worth my time checking out the comments to that person..They get mighty nasty to each other at freaksville.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. Pogo had it right
and we true Americans must take the nation's future out of the hands of the criminals currently running things.

There had better be more impeachments than just Rumsfeld. Our representatives owe a debt to the people of Iraq, the world and our own troops who are in more danger as each day dawns and more atrocities come to light.

What a mess. The troops need material support to stay alive in a place growing justifiably more hostile. The monies for that material support is ransom paid to the corporate interests holding them hostage and keeping a knife at their throats.

The coming fury will shock and awe. I just hope it rages against only those who really have it coming and not the innocents. I am eternally, foolishly hopeful only the guilty will pay. I am old enough to know that will not be the case.
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. The only thing we had going into this was our "moral authority..."
...which, IMHO, we lost anyway by launching a pre-emptive war against a sovereign nation which, by most accounts (barring the OSP) was NOT a imminent threat to our nation.

We are now no different than the "evil empire" of Reagan's era, in the eyes of the rest of the world...

Sucks to be the only superpower, doesn't it?
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. You are very close to being labeled Enemy Combatant
Don't you know it is considered a crime to expose the Administration. Aiding and abetting the enemy.
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
9. The war was lost when the first bomb fell, Will.
Short of nuking the whole country, we could never have won this war.

History, my friend.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
114. It was actually lost well before that first bomb...
...and it goes back to the initial planning for the invasion of Iraq by the PNACers prior to the Coup of December 2000.

These people are just as deranged as the Nazis were during the 1930s.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. This could be the first administration...
Impeached for violations of the RICO statutes. It really could.

On the other hand, people like Whitey Bulger and Nicky Scarfa, for whom the law was intended, were a lot more discrete than these bums.

What the hell happened to the country I used to live in? Where did it go? Why did it declare war on my sanity?
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
11. Excellent summary of events, Will.
Seems to me there are only a few questions left:

How do we withdraw our troops safely without causing more instability to Iraq?

How do we (and who should we get to) apologize, not only to the Islamic/Arab population, but the world?

What systems can we put in place so that no one person or party can so completely destroy our country and international security/diplomacy again?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
30. What systems can we put in place
Well, let's start with the budget for the military. Without the military build-up, * would have never been able to set foot in Iraq. If we have real arms control and a very limited standing army no one will ever be able to committ the atrocities the likes of which we've never seen.

End the war on the Iraqi people and bring our boys home now, before they do any more damage.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
12. Further...
Edited on Thu May-06-04 06:01 PM by yowzayowzayowza
I grew up in a country threatened with momentary annihilation; a dirty nuke does not scare me. I grew up in a country threatened with the production of mega-tonnes of chemical and biological weapons; a handful of cave-ridden scientists do not scare me. The WoT is yet another means of herding sheep.

Nothing to Fear but Fear Itself" FDR

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5057
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
13. Analogy not Vietnam or Afghanistan, but the Sicilian Expedition of Athens
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webtrainer Donating Member (265 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. the defeat of the Sicilian expedition was . . .
essentially the beginning of the of the end for Athens. By the end of the century they were defeated and occupied by Sparta.
--------
We have much in common with ancient Athens, it appears. Since we don't have a Sparta, I'm hoping occupation is out, but certainly the part about their allies in the Delian League revolting is possible.

In Athens, a trial for treason was held, and the generals were condemned to death.

I'd heard about the Sparta/Athens wars of course, but this little expedition to far off Sicily is interesting.
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scottxyz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
55. Thank you for the info, Markses
I had never heard of the "Sicilian Expedition". Very interesting historical parallels.

And I had never read that Deleuze "Postscript".

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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #55
92. The "Sicilian Expedition"...
...along with the whole downfall of Athens, is covered in "The History of the Peloponnisian War" by Thucydides. Required reading at my college (St. John's) during freshman year. Pity it wasn't likewise required at Yale...

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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
14. very true
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. Maybe it is to ride in to the next election in glory?
Just plain ego to have people think you are great. After all what has Bush ever done on his own?To be the great War President would be it. Even better than his father.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
16. Oh Will...
:hug:
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. WE know that ..
Edited on Thu May-06-04 06:40 PM by drfemoe
But the lies keep coming. The *war* of Lies .. count them ..

In Niles, Bush touts war
Tells crowd terrorism fight is 1st priority
May 4, 2004

NILES, Mich. Four years ago, President George W. Bush said, he never dreamt he would be standing before the country saying we were at war.

On Monday, the president told a gymnasium full of 1,200 supporters, students and legislators at Niles High School in Michigan that his main focus for the next four years is to win the War on Terrorism.
...
My most important job is to make sure the country is safe by defeating the enemy, and continue to spread freedom, he said in the first stop of a two-day bus tour across Michigan and Ohio. From Niles, he went to Kalamazoo and Sterling Heights, Mich., before traveling to Ohio today. {Note: It was reported he spent 1 1/2 hours total on the *Bus*}

A free society is a peaceful society, he continued, stating that two-thirds of the known terrorist leaders have been brought to justice. Slowly but surely we are winning in this different kind of war where the enemy has no conscience. But we must not recant. The lesson learned from 9-11 is that the ocean no longer protects us.

Were we supposed to trust a man with ties to terrorists who funded suiciders into Israel, or defend America? Given the choice, I would save America every time. The world is better off with Saddam Hussein sitting in jail, but we still have a lot of work to do.

http://www.heraldargus.com/content/story.php?storyid=44...

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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
18. It was lost before we ever did anything ....
it was lost before we went to Afghanistan or Iraq.

It was lost before Bush*stole the election.....

It has been lost for so long I don't know if we can pin down the exact time....
maybe VietNam...maybe when we brought the slaves over....maybe when we murdered millions of Native Americans.....

I don't know...but I do know that this is the final shaming of America......there is no coming back from this.

I am so ashamed to say I am an American....not only is this war on terror lost but so are our souls.....

DR
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
20. There could no more be an effective "war" on terror, than a war on lying!
The underlying concept of this illegal "crusade" was severely and fatally flawed from the moment it was first conceived - deep within the gruesome and despicable bowels of the ruthless, lawless PNAC regime!

Excellent piece, Will.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
21. Don't forget handing faluja to republican Guards - still in old uniforms
When I saw that pic I exclaimed the same - and it was before the torture pics.
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Red State Rebel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
22. I Disagree
I have family over in Iraq and the reports they send home are different from what is heard in the news. It bothers me that we don't hear any of the good things our soldiers are doing. My cousin talks of working in a medical facility that is open to Iraqi citizens where they are making a difference in peoples lives and these people are grateful. To continually harp on the bad is one thing, but for defeatest word to reach our soldiers is terrible for morale. How would you feel if you were over there working your butt off trying to do good - and most of the news you hear from back home is telling you you are doing a horrible job and you are going to lose???

My sister's brother in law flies C130s filled with supplies for our soldiers and the Iraqis. He has told about how things have improved for the Iraquis in many ways that are never talked about here.

I understand the Iraqi frustration at feeling occupied but they need only look as far as Kuwait to see they can believe that we have no intention of staying.

Our soldiers deserve our support - a few bad apples are not cause to toss our hands in the air and desert them all.

I believe we can and will overcome the struggles we have had in Iraq and accomplish our goals for the Iraqi people.

I know that here at DU you are considered a traitor for believing the things I expressed, but believe it or not, not all Democrats are robots and I have a right to my beliefs about this situation.

This war should not be used as a point getter for B*sh and the Repugs it shouldn't be used as just a weapon for our side either.




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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. "..war should not be used..."
War is a failure of diplomacy. A miserable failure. This war is a miserable failure.

Yeah, some Iraqis we are helping.... at least some of the 200 billion is helping. But the war we are waging on the Iraqi people gets the lions share, and it is a total waste.

It is a case of this administration doing the wrong thing the wrong way. If you can't see that through the fog of war, then it only adds to the failure.
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toddzilla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
58. you don't think we are there to stay?
I guess you haven't read about the bases and the largest embassy ever to be constructed. I believe there are good things happening, do they outwiegh the bad? no.

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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #22
70. That darn Liberal Media.....
Keeping all the good stuff about Iraq out of the news.

If things were so great, we'd definitely be hearing about it.
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Red State Rebel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #70
78. I'm just going by what is told by people actually over there....
I am not blaming "liberal" or "conservative" media, just media in general. We all have heard the newsroom saying "if it bleeds it leads". It is much more interesting to report what is exciting over there, not necessarily the everyday good things that are happening.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #22
73. Then why do 70% of Iraqis want us out?
If we are doing so much good.

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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #22
81. Um, is your family Iraqi?
I assume they are american military and they would naturally have their own point of view. Besides, we have over 10,000 troops still in Kuwait. 10,000 army and another 1,500 at the air base.
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Red State Rebel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. As I said, they are just reporting their experiences
in interacting with the Iraqui people.
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UrbScotty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
104. THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
I am frustrated by all these people saying the war is lost.
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doni_georgia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
108. Thanks Fred (Doni's husband)
You point about Kuwait was made on Hannity's show, but it does carry some validity, For the present.
When Pandora opened the box and loosed its horrors upon mankind, with those horrors emerged hope. I cannot, for the sake of my kids and their kids, give up hope. As a people we have the ultimate power to turn this debacle around.

However, we also have to remember something: the right in this country has become powerful in its unity. The right will not savage its own, no matter how deserving, unless that individual has become a tremendous liability. (It remains to be see whether Rumsfeld's account is in the red yet.)

If we are to be honest on the left, or in the center - I do not consider myself a liberal though I am definitely a Democrat - we have to adhere to three things: 1) we have to stand unmoving by the Constitution of this nation, and 2) we cannot stray from it, or from the basic principles set forth in the preamble of the Declaration of Independence. That's a tougher call than it sounds: all of us have our unguarded moments. Finally, (3) when we are wrong, we MUST take ownership of our actions and stand the consequences. The great weakness of the right is its fundamental failure in these three areas. If we can hold to these three principles in the face of what is yet to come, it will be difficult indeed to find fault. A woman or man of integrity may say things that are not popular, but that integrity gives weight to that person's words. Therein lies the great failure of the left - we have failed for years to stand on our principles in the face of attack. We have been afraid of the consequences of being branded or deestroyed by a merciless opponent. Now we are reaping the results.
I say - no more. NO MORE. I am assailed daily by the lies propogated by the witless adherents of this adminstration's horrific policies. The foot soldiers of the right are not worth arguing with anymore, because these are people that simply will not verify the truth of what they hear. To attempt to educate these with words is to shout into the vacuum of their brains.
The only effective way to combat these people is through kind integrity. These are free people, and we cannot forget that. However, freedom is double-edged. People of integrity command respect even when they are in dissonance with popular opinion, and regardless of socioeconomic status. This is the one thing that no act of this administration can steal from us unless we allow it.

In conclusion: only by standing on our principles - not in lip service, but with deadly earnest - can we who oppose this unjust regime innoculate ourselves from just moral attack. In doing this, we have to accept that there will be disagreements amongst ourselves. If we agree to accept that these differences must exist, and recognize with new eyes the diversity that has so long been championed by the left - living it out - then we may stand together, and doing so, turn to the greater good of our people and of all people, as servants and stewards of the great fortune that comes with being a citizen of this country even now. Finally, in claiming our principles, we stake our ground in the moral battle before us, and defiantly proclaim our freedom in the face of, and despite of, those who would steal or force that freedom from us.

I know this is an overlong post, but I am brimming with anger, not only at those who would enslave me, but at myself for allowing any access by those tyrants to suborn my principle and my hope.

NO MORE! And not only may God bless America, but may we act as a people who desire that blessing!!

Mac in Ga
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #22
109. there are NO good OPTIONS on the WAR table anymore
and the SOONER we ALL realize that the SOONER our brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, aunts and uncles, nieces and nephews, neighbors and friends can COME HOME and the better all our chances will be.

though there may be some good that is going on in iraq the terrible VIOLENCE rightly overshadows EVERYTHING, which is good in its own way least we come to TOLERATE it or WORSE... IGNORE IT!

may your loved ones come home safely ASAP.

also thank you for sharing your important voice and information because you are right as well this information isn't discussed that often these days and the good that is happening is certainly important and valuable as well and their sacrifice and service is always noteworthy and should be honored, respected and remembered.

peace
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WVhill Donating Member (245 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #22
113. I'm glad you posted that.
Unless you read a local newspaper, the press tends to focus on controversy. Even with our local newspaper, the owner/publisher/editor finds controversy where none exists. He's been taken to the woodshed several times for that reason.

For all that is happening in Iraq, we're seeing mostly the bad emphasized. It's like condemning an entire barrel of apples when only a few are rotten. It seems to be missed by many that lots of good is being done for the Iraqi people. Unfortunately that doesn't sell newspapers.

I'm hoping we stay the course and fulfill our obligations to the Iraqi people.



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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #22
115. Incredible. Do you really believe that the NeoCons had ANY....
...intention to actually "...accomplish..." their STATED "...goals for the Iraqi people"??? Do you really believe that??

WHAT THE HELL "GOALS" ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

What "goals" were being accomplished by the bombing of innocent Iraqi civilians who died by the tens of thousands to clear the way for our occupation? Were those ordinary people being given their "freedom" by being permanently "liberated"?

What "goals" were being accomplished by the illegal invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation that has NEVER done America any harm????

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE OIL, DAMNIT!

Wake the hell up.

One more point...I'll support ALL of our troops until they are pulled the hell out of a place we should never have gone. I wish the best of luck to all of the folks currently in Iraq, and fervently hope for their safe return.

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
23. WHO RAN CELL BLOCKS 1A and 1B ? WHO DID THEY REPORT TO?
That's the big question. The people we see in the photographs were doing the prep work for 1A and 1B. 1A and 1B are where the deadly torture was done.

All we know is "Private Contractors" and "Other Governmental Agencies". Who ran those cell blocks? Who did they report to?
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. And who ordered the lady General to give that space to them ?
Now those are good questions.
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jimshoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
37. Almost certainly these contractors had a liaison
or supervisor type who would relay any intelligence gleaned from the prisoners to the military brass. Whether they relayed their information back to their civilian HQ's who then passed the info on to the Pentagon or they just walked down the hall to the Officer in charge of such things and had a good laugh at the latest humiliations is something we should ask Herr Rumsfeld tomorrow.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
24. We lost before the first shot was fired for a very simple reason
We chose to fight to win a war, not to establish a peace. Under those circumstances, is it any surprise that Afghanistan and Iraq are total failures for America?
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
25. This is just damned sad. Made all the moreso because it's just
damned true.

Another beautiful writing job about another hideous bush-related subject.

He really does have the reverse Midas touch. All the more reason to get him OUT of the White House and INTO the Carlyle Group, to work his "magic" there.

I wonder if, when he was a kid, he broke every toy and gift and gizmo he ever owned. He sure broke every company he ever owned. Now he owns a whole regime, and that's broken, too. Or soon to be, I hope.
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Miles dEath Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
27. The war better not be lost
"This war is lost. I mean not just the Iraq war, but this ridiculous War on Terror as a whole."

I dont think you really want this war to be lost, unless you WANT to be forced to worship Islam, unlss you WANT to be forced to pray 5 times a day, unless you WANT to see homosexuals executed, unless you WANT to see your daughters become slaves of their husbands, unless you WANT loose the freedoms we now have. If those are acceptable outcomes to you, then there is no need for you to support this war. If you don't like those outcomes, then it is time to start fighting this war and supporting the war effort.

It comes down to a simple choice. Fight for freedom and liberty or loose them. You can loose just as easily in a court room, in an election or on a battle field, the outcome is the same. I choose to fight because I will not surrender my freedom. I will not submit to Sharia or Islamic law. This is a war I support because I can not afford to loose.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Another crusader...
afraid of boogymen. Sad.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Huh?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. k
:eyes:
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. "Fight for freedom and liberty or lose them"
I can agree with that. I just have a different opinion of who's endangering our liberty. We're not about to "submit to Islamic law." We are, however, in a country where speaking out against our leader can cost jobs, where we can be arrested and detained without cause or access to a lawyer, where the government seeks to control our bodies, where one religious view influences public policy... That's the real danger.
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Miles dEath Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. Submitting to Islamic law
"We're not about to "submit to Islamic law."

Really?
Perhaps you mean like Canada or the UK? Perhaps you are not aware that there are already calls to put Sharia into international law?

http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2004-04/30/art...

Perhaps you are not aware that the STATED GOAL of the terrorist is to bring the whole world under the heal of Islam. Sharia does not permit freedom of religion. Care to give up the first amendment? I don't. I wont.

The war on terror is but the beginnings, the starting wisps of the war to come. Two value systems hold opposite views. Ours, promotes freedom and liberty. Theirs enforces domination of a particular interpretation of a religion. This is an impasse that can ONLY be resolved by force of arms.

You don't like it when "one religious view influences public policy"?? Well guess what, under the extremist Islam the terrorist espouse, they KILL you if you worship any other religion. Kinda puts a dampener on protesting don't you think?
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Not gonna happen
The only way the US will go down is from within, not because of a war, with "force of arms," with Islamic militants or anybody else.

Sorry. I'm not buying.
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Miles dEath Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Not buying
That's ok, you choose what you will. Others will carry the fight for today. Hopefully they will win. Hopefully there will never be a day where Sharia becomes the law - by treaty or under the UN.

But I will not trust to hope. I will do what I can while I have breath.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #43
87. Oh, brother. Now it's the "Islamic Domino Effect". What a hoot.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #43
94. In that case...
...why did we pre-emptively invade a SECULAR Arab country, considering that the likelihood is that any future elected government there will be dominated by the Shi'ite majority, which has close ties to its fellow Shi'ites ruling Iran, and therefore a far greater chance of imposing a similar form of Sharia to that found in Iran than any government led by the brutal-but-secular Saddam Hussein would ever have dreamed of doing?

:crazy:

(Remember that ObL called on Iraqis to get rid of the "infidel" Saddam themselves so that they could turn Iraq into an Islamic republic.)
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #43
105. The occupiers removed 'God' from their flag and are putting it on ours.
The Christian/Republican/Neocons are carrying out a Christian jihad here at home by eliminating the US Constitution bit by bit and replacing it with the Divine Right of Kings to eliminate democracy.

At the same time, 'God' was removed from the Iraqi flag because they are trying to take apart and reassemble Iraqi culture with no respect for their spirituality.

It's called Dominionism. Look it up. Then read my signature quote.
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #43
123. talkin about Bu$h and the re-thugs are we ....
"Theirs enforces domination of a particular interpretation of a religion."
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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. Writing from Iraq or Afghanistan, Miles?
Where do you live? I will gladly direct you to the local "Armed Forces Career Center." Walk the walk or STFU. "The choice is yours."

The word is "lose," by the way....
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Miles dEath Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Walk the walk?
Yes I walk the walk.
6 years 9 months 3 days US Army Infantry. I served with the 1st Bn 52nd Infantry, 1st Armored Division.

I walk the walk because I can no longer run. I've left blood in two operating rooms and after those surgeries I still can not run. Nor can I jump on the trampoline with my children. And it hard to pick up my children due to back and shoulder injuries. It is hard to feel the kiss of my wife due to frostbite on my face, ears, fingers and toes. All a direct result of my service. And though my injuries still cause me pain I'm glad I served.

Go to the local Armed force center? I did. I was told that they did not need a disabled veteran such as my self. So I can't serve on the front lines, but serve I still will. For it is my expertise in telecommunication and security that now serves our armed forces. It is my pocket book that pays for care packages to troops I only know by their name. I support our troops by shaking their hands and thanking them for there service every chance I get - on the street, in the air port, where ever I see the uniform.

And I pray for our troops safe return. I pray that their loved ones wills see them again. I pray that those who do return injured over come their pain are are able to press on with their lives.

So I will not STFU.
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jimshoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Hope they still have veterans benefits
if and when they do get back. And frankly I don't believe we can win the so called war on terror, all we are doing is inflaming the entire region. It's time for a pullout.
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Miles dEath Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Vets benefits
"Hope they still have veterans benefits if and when they do get back."

Amen
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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. As you should not. But I will...
If your tale is true, my apologies.
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dolo amber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #38
49. Sad story
But you should still STFU. Or better yet, go back to the board you've clearly practiced spouting all the *OH SAVE ME JESUS, THE TERRISTS ARE COMING!!* bullshit on.

www.freerepublic.com :hi:

heal of Islam

*HEEL*, btw. Spelling things right is fun!
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playahata1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #38
96. If you are computer-literate enough,
show me your DD-214 -- or whatever the document is that shows that you have served in the military.

BTW -- I am much more afraid of some of my fellow Americans than I am some "Islamist." As a matter of fact, I have considered converting to Islam because Christianity -- at least "Christianity" as it is propagated/practiced in this country -- does not answer my questions about the world to my satisfaction. In other words, your comments about Islam are IGNORANT and just plain WRONG.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
46. You funny Newbie...
by the way, loose? Try Lose. As in, "We will lose this war."

And Loose, rhymes with noose, something the war criminals should worry about.

RL
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Miles dEath Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. Apologize
I apologize for offending you with one extra "o".

I promise I will try to make my fingers that have suffered frost bite while serving in the Army and have been broken while I fought to defend myself and who have swollen knuckles from arthritic inflammation move a little faster to avoid that extra "o".

Lord knows I would not want to offend anyone by typing an extra "o".
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DenverDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #51
111. I'm calling bullshit!
Were you in WWII or what?
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belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #27
52. Terrific. You might want to start here at home, though...
At least, if you're really concerned about the latter three items in particular (homsexuals executed or at least persecuted, women becoming effective slaves of their husbands/fathers, losing the freedoms we still have). Whatever actual danger Islamic fanatics pose to us--and yes, i think physical attacks are still something to be concerned about--it isn't that of somehow converting us all to their fanatical religion, believe me. OTOH, the Christian Right in this country? They're right on their merry way, I'd say.

If you really love this country the way it is/has been, howzabout dropping the GI Joe posture and signing up with the ACLU or something? Charity begins at home; so does encroaching fundie fascism.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #27
56. First of all, it's "Lose" with one fucking O
You Hooked on Phonics motherfuckers need to get some extra help after class.

Second of all, we're not going to be defeated by Muslim extremists. Not unless we keep giving them reasons to exist. We're America. Normally, we wi8n simply by being America. Under Bush, however, we have given the extremist propagandists everything they could ever ask for, and then some.

A REAL President wouldn't do that, but would lead us to victory with his/her heart, brain and soul.

Blood does not equal victory. Death does not create democracy. Righteousness does both. We have none now. Soon, we will...
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #56
80. Last I checked there was no 8 in 'win'
Edited on Fri May-07-04 10:48 AM by Blue_Chill
"we wi8n simply by being America"

You Hooked on Phonics motherfuckers need to get some extra help after class.



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Star Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #27
62. I've heard it all before
It used to be the RRRussians who were the boogeymen that I needed to fear. Those godless savages were going to overrun my country, turn neighbor against neighbor, force me to give up my religion, make me sell my house and live on a commune, etc., etc., etc.,

I'm tired of the boogeyman. I'm tired of living my life in fear that someone somewhere is going to force me to do something that I won't like. I'm tired of being told that we either have to fight to the death or live horrible, ugly lives.

It didn't come true then, it won't come true now. Its only the military-industrial complex that sells us this shit because they can make tons of money off of our fear.

No more. No more. No more.

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Zero Gravitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #27
74. There's no such thing as a "war on terror"
Its just more lies & bullshit propaganda from your precious "War President". The lying bastard can't even conduct a war against al Qaeda let alone against the abstract idea of "terrorism".

Why are there 10,000 US troops in the country that harbored bin Laden but 130,000 in a country that never had anything to do with al Qaeda or any other terrorist organization? Why is the Taliban still running large chunks of Afghanistan? Its because your worthless "Commander" in Chief isn't fighting a "war on terrorism" but has had his tiny little brain clouded by neo-imperialist fantasies about re-making the Middle East so it will be safe for the Israelis.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
93. Obviously, you also "can't afford"...
...to learn how to spell "lose."

:eyes:
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DenverDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #27
110. Baaaaaa.
Yawn.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #110
116. Oh come on, folks.
The guy may be using a lot of RW-sounding rhetoric, but he's ultimately correct.

We have to destroy Al Qaeda and anybody that helps them. They killed 3,000 people at once on American soil. You don't let stuff like that just roll off your back. Al Qaeda has to go.

Obviously the Iraq war was ridiculously immoral, and Bush is doing a horrible job in making progress in killing off Al Qaeda, but I can't stand all this "the war on terror is a farce" stuff, either. Al Qaeda has to be destroyed.
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DenverDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #116
118. Al CIAda must be destroyed, no doubt.
Edited on Sat May-08-04 12:53 PM by DenverDem
We must eliminate those who command and control them.

And those commanders are?
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #116
120. The "War on Terror" is
a POLICE ACTION. Run around calling everything a WAR and the next thing ya know the role of the federal government includes 'eradicating evil.'
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #120
121. Right, like invading Vietnam was a police action.
:P

Al Qaeda was very closely connected to the Taliban, the government of Afghanistan. So we invaded that country. That's a war.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. I'll meet ya half way...
I'm all for a "War on Al Qaeda," but a "War on Terror" is rhetorical garbage.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #122
124. How about the War Against People Who Have Tried or Plan to
Attack Civilians Living Within the United States for the Purpose of Terrorizing Them (WAPWHTPACLWUSPTT)?
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Star Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #124
127. Like Timothy McVeigh?
OK, then, we'll have a war on Timothy McVeigh, how's that?

There is a huge, major difference between self defense and war. War is trying to kill other people. Self defense is preventing others from killing you. We are lousy at self defense because too many of us don't understand, or accept, the consequences of our actions. If we want to be "king of the hill", then we set ourselves up to be toppled by all those who want to be king of the hill instead.

America right now is not benevolent. Maybe, if it were just a little bit more benevolent, we could "destroy" Al Qaeda without killing anyone.
Is aggression always the answer, or the best response? I hope not.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #127
128. Yes, like Timothy McVeigh.
There's a very fine line here that I'm trying to paint, but people seem to be missing it.

The fact is that what Al Qaeda did crossed WAY over that line, and they have to be destroyed in order to keep them from doing it again.

That does NOT involve invading countries that had nothing to do with 9/11, like Iraq. That destroys our credibility and misappropriates extremely important resources. Besides that, it's just plain wrong and doesn't help us at all. Focus.

But something has to be done concerning those who have attacked us on our soil. More specifically, they have to be killed. It's important that we maintain our moral authority so that other countries will work with us in that regard, which is just another reason that Bush is such a horrible president. But, yes, in any case, Al Qaeda's time is up.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
35. Shaking my head, but WE are as much a victim as they are.
We didn't elect him. We fought his push to go to Iraq. We did everything we could to get him to do the right thing in Afghanistan. We tried to tell him that you don't go in and kill people you don't like, you capture them and give them a trial. He didn't care. They didn't care. WE DIDN'T MATTER. All that mattered was our ability to pay taxes to pay for these atrocities.

HE will go into the twilight and we will be left behind with the consequences.
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Kazak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
59. Yep.
Sucks! On the bright side...no way he wins a legit election.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #35
95. It's a damn shame, then...
...that, while "we" fought his push to go to Iraq, the Democrats in Congress (scared of backlash in the polls after we "easily won") chose to enable Bush instead of taking a stand for what was right.

Had we done the right thing, we could have conducted our GE campaign on attacking Bush for getting us into this mess. Now, no matter what we say, the Republicans have an obvious comeback in "you have no right to criticize...after all, your candidate voted in favor of the war, too!"

:-(

(And, lest you think this singling out Kerry for criticism, he was far from the only Democrat vulnerable to such a line. Had the nominee been John Edwards -- the only reasonably-close runner-up -- the response would have been the same. As it would have been had either Lieberman or Gephardt been able to take the nomination.)
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #95
106. I am still peeved that Howard Dean was marginalized enough
to make him lose with what I think was dirty politics although it's unprovable right now.
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kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
39. This is the subject of Nightline tonight
Whether we've lost the war.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
42. There's Only One Way Out That Has Any Chance In Hell of Accomplishing
Edited on Thu May-06-04 08:44 PM by Beetwasher
something non-cataclismic:

This admin. must be brought to justice and prosecuted and punished for their crimes, and at this point that still probably won't be enough to save this country from the wrath of the rest of the planet that is unfortunately hurtling towards us in some deadly, hidden arc.
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The Lone Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
50. Only a bone-headed Republican didn't know
what the end of this mis-adventure would be, there was no other way for it to end than the way it is ending and going to end.

We have not seen the last chapter. The last chapter will make Saigon seem like an orderly withdrawal. I envision it more like the Choson Reservoir retreat, or maybe more like Napoleon retreat from Russia. Regardless it is going to be bad, very bad.
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #50
72. More like Hitler's retreat from russia.
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latebloomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
53. Actually I am GLAD that all this is coming to light
Despite all their attempts to blindfold the media, the truth is relentlessly coming out. Didn't I read that "60 Minutes II" had the torture photos but had decided against showing them??-- until they came out on an Internet site and CBS said, Screw it, might as well air the show. The Internet is mighty! The power of the people is great!

Horrible atrocities took place in Vietnam and it took years before it was common knowledge. The world has changed, and such horrific acts can lie long hidden no longer. Bush and his minions are reaping what they've sown, and quickly!
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #53
112. I agree....it's good that it's coming out.

It's ugly, and no one likes to face it, but if we weren't grilling Rumsfeld publically, under oath, on international television I'd be MUCH more worried.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
54. Can you imagine the outcry if..
..all this had transpired when William Jefferson Clinton was President of the United States?

Can you imagine the number of politicians that would be SCREAMING for impeachment? Can you IMAGINE the howls of anger from the venomous puff-adders in the "liberal-media"? Can you IMAGINE the outrage of the common man and woman in the street as they saw HUNDREDS of young soldiers coming home in boxes draped by Old Glory, only to be told that they cannot actually see the cold hard proof of the damnable lies that cost them their lives?

You can?

Good...then why are you still sitting in front of your computer? Get up, get mad, and start DEMANDING that our elected representatives start ACTING like our elected representatives and DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY!!!

And if it's just too much like hard work, or too much effort, or if you think that your voice won't be heard, or that your vote won't count, just remember this one thing...All of this bullshit happened in his first four years in office when he still had to worry about "re" election....Can you IMAGINE what bush would do in the NEXT four years, free from the constraints of electoral scrutiny?

There is only one thing to do...spend every spare moment that you have between now and November talking to people, organizing people, chastising and bugging people to get out and vote...in DROVES...and throw this lying murdering bastard out on the street....

Your country, your future, and your children's future, indeed the very fabric of this great democracy DEPEND on it...

The choice is yours.....
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
57. The War is Lost,.........? ...... Bush is TOAST
Bush and his adventures have toasted America with SHAME

And they wish another 4 years??? To continue tis farce???

We are so lucky this Bush vacations are long and frequent, less time on the job means less loss to America, he is that bad.
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Kazak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
60. Sad, very sad...
Well said...but sad. :(
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ProdigalProfligate Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
61. Yep. ANOTHER war is lost.
When are the imbeciles in charge going to realize that the military is only for DEFENSE! If someone attacks us we need to defend ourselves but to use them for our own gain will always wind up being a loss in the end. The age of the triumphant agressor is OVER!
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
63. Yes, while I share
your sentiment on a battle gone totally awry, with defeat lingering, I see a war that can be won--under new leadership--John Kerry leadership.

I agree this war is a perpetual losing battlefield under the leadership of George Bush, but I hold out for hope with a new leader and it can't come fast enough!
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #63
69. Winnable? Kerry can not WIN the war on terrorism or the war in Iraq.
I don't disagree that we need new leadership in this country. And if John Kerry's moderate positions are the only ones that can replace Bush, then I will support him. But WIN the war in Iraq--WIN the "war on terrorism"? I don't see where you 'get' that.

First of all, the whole "war on terrorism" is BOGUS. Why do we parrot these right-wing talking phrases as if they had any legitimacy (war on drugs, family values, etc.) There IS NO WAR on "terrorism." You can't "win" a "war" on a political strategy. If you want to bring terrorism to an end in the world, that is an altogether different matter--and the only way to do that is to bring about an end to the causes which bring about terrorism in the first place. Those causes are economic and political, not military.

"Win" the war in Iraq? You're going to have to tell me what "win" in this context means. We've already overthrown the existing regime and incarcerated the despot who ruled it. That wasn't "winning," was it? Now what are we going to do?

The problem is no one is allowed to talk about WHY we invaded Iraq in the first place. It wasn't any of the stated reasons, that has become disgustingly clear. So why ARE we there? Why MUST we stay? Until there is OPEN public debate about these real underlying issues, we're caught in a quagmire that is a LOSE LOSE situation for everyone. --Everyone, that is, EXCEPT for those who *profit from this war*.

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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. first of all, "winning" anything with this administration
is null and void. Secondly, again, when I use the word "winning" it is used in a "subjective" context--my vision, my ideas of a what I see can be a positive change in ME policies with a President who WORKS with the Arab countries. I believe there will always be those who hate America, but with the respected leadership we "win." It not about "winning" a foot race or the so-called war on terror, it's about a "winning" strategy with a COMPETENT leader who KNOWS what the hell he is talking about and I believe Kerry does know.



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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #71
76. Why are we in Iraq?
In your original post you said, "I see a war that can be won--under new leadership--John Kerry leadership."

I don't see a "WAR" at all. What I see is a resource dependant superpower invading an oil-rich nation to steal their resources and to put our military in a strategic position in a politically unstable yet resource rich region in a time of declining resources.

But you tell me, why ARE we in Iraq? Why did we militarily depose Sadam? Why did we kill thousands upon thousands of Iraqi civillians?

And then you tell me how John Kerry or anyone else is going to turn this into a win-win situation.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #76
86. First of all
Edited on Fri May-07-04 12:46 PM by devrc243
don't jump down my throat about your anger over this war. I'm just as angry.

"But you tell me, why ARE we in Iraq? Why did we militarily depose Sadam? Why did we kill thousands upon thousands of Iraqi civillians?"

I'm not Bush so I can't tell you EXACTLY what he was thinking when he put us in this mess, but I suspect, like you--oil, trying to finish up what poppy didn't, and tons of other reasons come to mind.

Look whether we wanted to be in Iraq or not, we ARE there now, so using words like WIN are merely subjective in the context of this topic. If you want to mince words I can do that but seriously the bottom line is we new leadership.


LET ME SAY THIS AGAIN: "I HOLD OUT for HOPE, with a new leader..." guess I would like to think that there is some.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. You used the word "win"--you called it a "war"
I'm pointing to your language as a reflection of your perceptions of what is real--and the way using them reinforces this perception both in yourself and in others. There is no "war" and there can be no "victory". There has been an INVASION and continues to be an OCCUPATION for purposes of shoring up the US economy and longer range strategic planning.

The consequences of this has been BLOOD--much much blood--ours and theirs. John Kerry did not OPPOSE this invasion--and I don't want to hear that he was misled or that to oppose it would have been politically disadvantageous or any of that nonsense. I'm nobody and I KNEW that the "reasons" being given for that invasion were LIES. Kerry knew. So, yes, we ARE in Iraq now, aren't we? And you apparently believe that a change in administrations is going to somehow significantly change that fact. I don't.

I will support JK for President of the United States with more than just my vote and I will work to try and guarantee that the election of 2004 is a fair and honest one. What I will not do is dignify deceptions with semantic agreement nor will I stop agitating for full accountability from everyone that lead us into this disaster.



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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #89
98. you know...
Edited on Fri May-07-04 06:42 PM by devrc243
"There has been an INVASION and continues to be an OCCUPATION for purposes of shoring up the US economy and longer range strategic planning."

Tell me something I don't know.


"And you apparently believe that a change in administrations is going to somehow significantly change that fact. I don't."

And with this, tells me this "debate" is over. Apparently all you want to do is argue, so I concede.

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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #63
75. Which war will Kerry win?
Its not clear to me which is the war of which you speak when you refer to "this war" as a perpetual losing battle that Kerry will win.

Is Kerry going to win the war in Iraq? the war against terrorism? some other war?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
64. Eat poop, freep
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Red State Rebel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #64
83. Who is it you are calling a Freep?
I hope it isn't me. We are all entitled to our own opinions. I stated my reasons for mine, you stated your reasons for yours.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. Clue.
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Red State Rebel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #85
90. This was directed to Will Pitt...
His reply went back to the original post. I'm not the only person who disagreed to some extent with what he had to say.

I find it hard to believe that disagreement with someone automatically qualifies you to be called a Freeper.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #83
91. No one
Edited on Fri May-07-04 02:04 PM by WilliamPitt
I was referencing a thread of mine from last night. This was directed at no one. I don't call people freepers around here.
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Red State Rebel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #91
99. Thanks..
sorry for the misunderstanding...
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
65. The words of William M. (Boss) Tweed came to me this week:
"...maybe they can't read - but dammit, they can see pictures!"

(his reference to Thomas Nast - cartoonist -cataloging Tweed's corruption in New York)


Methinks this week was W's Desert One/Rodney King moment. A fiasco from which the incumbent candidate goes downhill, beyond all attempt to salvage his career.
(Desert One-1980 - Jimmy Carter)
(Rodney King/LA riots-1992 - George HW Bush)


:kick:
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CaptainClark23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
66. Theres another war going on.
And thats the war right here. Americans against americans. In the balance is the very future of this Republic.

I agree with your comments re: Iraq, war on terror, etc., but those, for all their horror, are just battles in the greater war for control over the future.

We are still at war. Each of us.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #66
79. Yes, Iraq is only one battle in this larger war of which you speak
And it is a war not only for the future, but for our essential humanity.

And it is not only a war in America; it is a global war--a war in which every man woman and child alive today are engaged.

Who are our allies? Who can help us see beyond the chaos to a vision of a new world?
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
68. The torture has dishonored the very reason for us being there
what a waste. Those poor soldiers.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #68
77. "REASON?" What "reason" was that?
There was NEVER any honorable "reason" for our soldiers to be sent to Iraq.

PLEASE, someone, explain to me how the humiliation of prisoners is somehow WORSE than the barbaric bombing of a civilian population under false pretenses? I am angry--not at you NewYorker--but at the fact that it takes photographs of barbarity to get people to even THINK about what is going on. WHY is this barbarity WORSE, in the minds of most Americans, apparently, than the "collateral damage" that blows the arms, legs, and heads off babies?
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #68
88. The torture has dishonored the WMD claims? The al Qaeda connections?
Which reason has it dishonored?
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #88
126. this was their LAST and FINAL of their MANY LIES for WHY we went in
and wp is right... the war is UNWINNABLE now and the SOONER our 'leaders' realize that the sooner our troops can come HOME.

:hi:

peace
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heidiho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
82. Thank you, Will, it made me cry for this country
that I love so much but don't feel a part of anymore.

I have printed your excellent article and will be using it often as talking points are needed for discussions, LTTE, etc.

You are, as always, spot on.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
97. Kick for posterity (nt)
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
100. There never EVER was any way to win...
...either the "War on Terrorism" or the annexation of Iraq.
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BabsSong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
103. You might know that, Will, but much more importantly is that the
Amurekan people DON'T. And Bush will not allow them to think in those terms (stay the course) until the elections. If he wins, he cuts and runs because there is nothing to salvage over there. If Kerry wins they will put 24/7 pressure on him to have a great victory where all Iraqis live in peace, vote and skip through fields of flowers and if he dare proposes leaving, they will disembowel him. Nice kettle of fish, don't you think????
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SarahB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
107. Why did we ever got ourselves into this quag-fucking-mire?
Oh yes, profits for corporations. That's right. Really worth all the lives they fucked up and will continue to fuck up. I really hate the fact that the actions of these bastards only put me, as an Amercian, in MORE danger. This did nothing but make the world hate us even more. What was the fucking point???!!!
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laura888 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
117. thank you for this well-written post
bravo!
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BonjourUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
119. What reasons ??
And give one example (only one) in which the democracy has been brought by a foreign army.
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AliceWonderland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
125. Some felt the tear in the moral fabric
of this society long before this week, and some of us didn't feel the desire for revenge after 9/11. At the very least, if I were going to feel hatred and want revenge, I would have had to know who I should hate and bomb. In the absence of an investigation into what happened on 9/11, I found the offered targets of hatred -- entire countries, peoples, ethnic groups, and religions -- somewhat lacking, shall we say. After 9/11, some felt an increased desire for justice and an increased sense that the present international paradigm creates many problems and much violence. At any rate, I don't think the vast majority of Americans suffered that much after 9/11... I think we did just fine compared to what most of the world lives with. I remember reading an article shortly after the attacks -- it said that Ben and Jerry's ice cream was doing well because people wanted comfort food. I think, relatively speaking, we're doing pretty well, certainly well enough to care more about premium ice cream as a society than the passing of the PATRIOT Act, for example.

I am increasingly disturbed that it took the present photographic evidence to make this society outraged at the phony, mendacious War on Terra (tm). (Well, some aren't even outraged, but some are clearly still dragging their knuckles on the ground.) Before this week, it was known that the amount of civilians killed in this war was in the thousands, getting to the 5 digit range... and what, this society needed to see pictures first? Our society condoned killers in its names long before this week, calling its actions "liberation" and "bringing democracy" with a straight face.

To me, the "war on terror" was lost the moment we failed to demand rational and coherent explanations for what occurred on 911. The larger "war" was lost long before that, one could argue.
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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
129. Everything you say here is true, Will, and yet
somehow SOMEBODY needs to be thinking of a win-win approach. One in which both the Iraqis win and America wins (no-NOT a win for Bush/Cheney and their lackeys, but for the values of America and for the at least 60% of us who're basically decent and well-intentioned, if poorly served by the media.)

WHAT this would involve, I'm not sure. But awful though the situation is, that's all the more reason to try to turn it around. Maybe it's beyond the power of the U.S. to do anything right in Iraq now. In that case we need to get out and let the UN have a go at achieving some stability.

As for "war on terrorism": OK, maybe it's a contradiction in terms. But surely economic development would help, long-term, to lessen this excuse for violence. So would settling the Israeli-Palestian problem, also on a win-win basis. And how about Muslims from democratic countries funding some schools for poor children in the Middle East, schools which teach secular subjects and Islam, but the latter without the jihad-as-holy war spin?

There are lots of other possibilities, once a few people start really thinking outside the box. Please, why isn't anyone doing so?
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