Isn't "Torture" overstating it a bit?

[Jack_Dawson]

Let's keep in mind Saddam hung prisoners from their handcuffs (with their hands BEHIND them) from moving ceiling fans for days at a time. He fed people into wood chippers. He extracted fingernails and administered electric shocks w/ a cattle probe. He would throw blindfolded people off four-story buildings...a height he determined would do the most damage w/o actually killing them.

The pix of our soldiers fucking with the Iraqi prisoners are sickening to be sure, but I would classify them more as "humiliation" than "torture"...unless there are pix I've missed. Believe me I'm no Sean Hannity, but I think the word "torture" should be kept in context.

[GreenArrow]

1. if it were being done to you, against your will,

what would you consider it?

[aquart]

2. Is this a competition?

No. Torture is NOT overstating it.

Or perhaps a stick up your butt is your idea of a good time?

[Disturbed]

13. Calling it abuse..

The humiliation photos have been promoted thus far and as usual the Media is over amping them. In my view the Media
and Bushco want to keep it at that. The systematic policy of Getmo, Afghanistan and three prisons in Iraq of real torture is being downplayed. The actual torture and murder of prisoners is the real story that is being kept in the background.

[Catholic Sensation]

3. also look at the culture

putting men whose culture treats females as sub-human into undergarments designed for them could be torture to them. What might seem like reckless brutality and meanness to you could be torture to someone else.

[CJCRANE]

19. how many Iraqi women do you know?

How do you know their culture treats them as sub-humans?

[Catholic Sensation]

32. yeah the MIddle East is reknowned for their progressive treatment of women

Arab men in particular are especially sympathetic to the feminist cause. I mean women all over the Middle East are sometimes allowed outside!

Theocratic Islam, like fundamentalist Christianity, is disgustingly brutal towards women. What do you call stoning a woman for being raped? Certainly not treating them like humans.

[dpibel]

81. That darned Iraqi theocracy

Please advise your knowledge of the theocratic government in Iraq. This will be news to all, and the correction most welcome.

Also, comment on how the hideous brutality to women in Iraq resulted in women in Iraq going to college, becoming professionals, and stuff like that.

Thanks so much.

[oldcoot]

89. You should not lump all Middle Eastern nations together

Iraq was hardly perfect under Saddam Hussein but women had rights in Iraq. Iraqi women could drive, work outside the home, go to school, and were not required to wear veils.

Unfortunately, the so-called liberation of Iraq has provided Muslim extremists and criminals with the opportunity to threaten and abuse Iraqi women.

[CJCRANE]

207. Iraq was a secular country

under Saddam Hussein, totally against religious fundamentalism. Whilst he was a brutal dictator who persecuted his political enemies it seems that for the majority Of Iraqis there were jobs, security etc in fact better than the situation today by many accounts, where there is utter lawlessness.

I'd also like to point out that not all arabs are muslims, and not all muslims are fundamentalists.

But I agree that all fundamentalists of any religion are dangerous.
One of the problems is that as Christian fundamentalism increasingly influences US foreign policy and actions there is a reaction which creates greater islamic fundamentalism. It's a vicious circle.

[sushi]

210. You are exaggerating

I mean women all over the Middle East are sometimes allowed outside.

Wrong. I have lived in the ME and I saw many women "outside." More and more Muslim women are highly educated. It's only in Saudi Arabia where women are expected to be covered up when "outside." While living in the ME I regularly watched 'local' movies (Egyptian, Tunisian, Iranian, Turkish, etc.) on TV, and I noticed how assertive and even bossy ME women can be.

Theocratic Islam, like fundamentalist Christianity, is disgustingly brutal towards women.

Horrible men are disgustingly brutal to women.

What do you call stoning a woman for being raped? Certainly not treating them like humans.

Here I agree with you. It's practiced by Muslims in some parts of the ME, and Africa too, and should be outlawed, like female circumcision. That will take time.

[Moloch]

204. Iraqi women under Hussein..

had more rights than they did in most of the Islamic world.

[nonconformist]

4. Well, let a group of foreigners come to your house and shove

chem lights up your ass and get back to me.

[sangh0]

5. Yes

and calling Hitler a "Nazi" was overstating it a bit too.

[voice of reason]

6. It's cruel

but is it really that unusual? unfortunately not.

v.o.r.

[Bread and Circus]

7. Um....no, I think torture is correct....

it's doesn't sound as bad as what you list but I still think
it meets my "criteria" as torture.

[RBHam]

8. You agree with Rush Limbaugh and Sean hannity, eh?

Hell, just a little frat party stunt!

I have an idea that might help you.

Stick a pencil in your ear, that's it, there.

Got that itch out yet?

[seabeyond]

9. you right broom stuck up peoples butts

isnt that extreme. nor is death

[bicentennial_baby]

10. Dunno..What do you think? (Graphic Photo)

I think this guy would call it torture...

[sushi]

212. Here is what's-her-name

introducing democracy to the people of Iraq!

[Selwynn]

11. The simple answer: yes, it fits the classic definition of torture.

No brownie points will be given for whose torture is better than whos.

[Cleita]

12. Anything that is done to you without your consent and

that hurts you, whether there is blood or not, is torture. What you decribed about Saddam is only a matter of degree. Remember in the Spanish Inquisition, Torquemada had torture refined to a degree that he could take a prisoner to the point of death and yet was able to revive him with little physical damage done if he needed the prisoner alive and apparently unharmed later.

[yardwork]

14. No. Torture is not overstating it.

Check out the links on other threads. This was both psychological and physical torture.

People were beaten and murdered. Old women were ridden like donkeys. Mothers and their babies were made to sit out in the hot sun for days, wearing hoods. Men and women were raped.

The sexual humiliation is a form of psychological torture. The results to those abused are the same as rape. Read the first-person accounts. People are too humiliated to return home.

Amnesty International and other groups have a lot of information about the long-term damage caused by torture. It's not the physical pain that is worst. The psychological damage is long-term and difficult to overcome.

[trof]

15. Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Main Entry: 1tor·ture
Pronunciation: 'tor-ch&r
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquEre to twist; probably akin to Old High German drAhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle
1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3 : distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument

We parse very finely here.
Is humiliation not a form of anguish?

[Bridget Burke]

16. We also need the true story of Saddam's actions for comparison.

There's no doubt he was a nasty piece of work. But where's the evidence? It will come out during his trial....

Probably his torturers were worse than our torturers. How many hundreds of Americans--how many thousands of Iraqis--died to make the switch?

Is a kinder, gentler torture worth all the death?

[rucky]

17. Good point. Any Saddam torture photos for comparison?

I want to SEE how two wrongs make a right.

[seabeyond]

28. what is my definition of torture is different for another

and the u.s. was taught well by isreal. they knew what they were doing. the physical torture to the iraqi is nothing compared to the torture that the u.s. inflicted on them. do you know their religion, adn we surely understand how strongly their belief, they are killing themselves for their religion. and what was being done to them was specifically going after their strong beliefs in practicing islam

we couldnt have done anything more horrendous to these people than what we did

[kysrsoze]

192. Yeah, Israel has some real gassers - literally

1. Firing chemical weapons into crowds (saw this on videotape)
2. Shooting and killing 10 y/o kids who throw rocks
3. Stepping on your balls and kicking you in the crotch
4. Breaking limbs
5. Sexual abuse
6. Turning off all power to the Gaza strip
7. Destroying the family living room and TV of suspects' relatives
8. Shooting and killing those who didn't leave their homes when Israel was created.

[Jacobin]

18. Uhm

Having a burning phosphorous light stick rammed up your rectum is a "hi-jink"?

Comparisons that some make to frat hazing are way off the mark. Number one, the frat people KNOW this shit is gonna happen and WANT to do it. They have a choice. Number two, the hazing is for the purpose of becoming part of the (sado-masochistic) clique. That in no way equates to the torture of Iraqis. Three, we fucking occupy their country and they are in jails at the point of a gun. Four, sexual humiliation to them is quite perverse and out of bounds, whereas it seems your average american hick thinks that shit is just loads of laughs.

I'm amazed and depressed to read titles like this on DU. I really am.

[seabeyond]

20. rape of women

men i am sure may not think that is torture, really just a little abuse, they probably like it anyway., wanted it all along. didnt you here the ya baby.......and it appears have rapes of boys coming our way soon

riding an 70 year old woman like a mule they say. her on her hands and knees.

[gpandas]

95. not this man n/t

[tom_paine]

116. I didn't hear that one. If true, disgusting

Got a link?

[Hubert Flottz]

21. Saddam did not EVER claim to represent Democracy!

At least the Iraqi people knew where they stood with that Despot! What these people did using our tax money is a FUCKING OUTRAGE!

[bigtree]

22. These are just the photographed abuses

The dead ones like the saran wrapped prisoner who was beaten would testify to their experience as torture. Rape is torture. Sodomy is torture. Whatever the soldiers did to coerce the prisoners into those vile acts is torture.

[ima_sinnic]

23. & all the Chinese water torture is is a little drip of water

on your forehead(?)--</sarcasm>

abuse, humiliation, torture--what's the difference, anyway? it's all semantics, isn't it? "abuse" and "humiliation" sound less than "torture" so they're really not "torture"? don't buy into the Limbaugh crap of "this is a molehill"--if it were a "molehill" the rest of the world would not be outraged.

[LittleApple81]

24. Well, if this were done to you how would you call it? I hope I am

NEVER in a situation like that but I would know what I would call it.

[Katarina]

25. It's torture n/t

[stellanoir]

26. shucks. . .

when I was a kid I thought ticking qualified as torture, That's nothing next to what these poor (60% innocent civilians) had to endure.

Hated for our freedoms. . .? I think not. Hated for our brutality and insensitivity sounds more like it.

I've never been more ashamed to be an American and truly loathe this so- called administration.

[Solly Mack]

27. Not only is it torture but it's also terrorism

Both are used to cause fear...to reduce your victim to a quivering mass...to mind-fuck them into compliance...

Nope, those very human monsters tortured those prisoners and in the doing, created a climate of terror for the others.

[Bjornsdotter]

29. Physical, Sexual and Psychological Torture

Hi,

I think you have really answered your own question....because these people lived through Hussein's regime and knew what he was capable of,it made this worse. These victims not only experienced physical and sexual torture, but also psychological. I can only imagine what was running through their minds. The psychological torture after living under Hussein and now THIS from the people who are supposed to liberate them. It's a betrayal of trust and authority.

It is torture....physical, sexual and psychological.

Cheers,
Kim

[CJCRANE]

30. If you were in a land with

no law and order, in a prison with no oversight, no guarantee of the Geneva conventions or laws of any kind, naked and blindfold, surrounded by perverts with guns who can and will make you do anything they want you to do...I think I'd call that torture.

[DoNotRefill]

31. Compare it to what goes on in US prisons daily....

and you'll come to the conclusion that what happened there comparatively wasn't so bad.

That's a pretty stinging indictment of the US Criminal Justice system, isn't it?

[Imalittleteapot]

33. Humiliation is mental torture.

Physical wounds heal fast. Mental wounds last a life time.

[GumboYaYa]

34. Here's one common definition of torture:

Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, 1984

Article 1

For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Under that definition and all the others I found, we tortured those folks.

[progressivejazz]

35. Check the Geneva Conventions and get back to me.

It's torture. In context.

[Oddman]

36. Muslims being stripped is worse than torture.

Especially in front of a woman. You have to see it from their ideology and not ours . . . This is far worse than physical torture . .



“I is sorry . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .that we got caught!”

[Jack_Dawson]

37. Y'all need to take your outrage, and

check out sites like www.spr.org

Much worse shit goes on right here at home every day, yet you'll never hear about it. I've donated to this group and if you read the stories, you'll come away pretty shocked and appalled.

[liveoaktx]

39. Excuse! But there's enough outrage for multiple instances of torture

and yes, what happened to the Iraqis was torture and does not have to be compared, in scale, with other horrific examples.

[Divernan]

42. This SPR site says sexual degradation of Iraqi prisoners is torture.

"SPR deplores abuse and sexual degradation of Iraqi prisoners and notes that it constitutes torture." Does that answer you question?

[Toucano]

47. That's a great link

but as others have said in this thread, it isn't a matter of degrees.

What you're suggesting is that because the history (and indeed, present) of mankind includes instances of torture that are WORSE, that this isn't torture.

A toothache or a bullet wound. They're both pain. Simply because the bullet hurts more, doesn't mean the toothache doesn't hurt.

[Jack_Dawson]

50. I can dig that argument...

I've been to a torture museum and you wouldn't believe the fucked up shit people have invented to inflict on their fellow man over the centuries. But I'll accept your argument that there are different degrees of torture.

[Ms. Clio]

58. Is sodomizing someone with a broomstick or chemical light torture?

Inquiring minds wanna know.

[West Coast Democrat]

172. Was it that "torture" museum in London?

I've been there, and that's what this stuff in Iraq reminded me of.

[blondeatlast]

62. Damn straight. My toothache is pretty bad right now.

Live wires up my butt won't help me feel better, though.

I really can't believe I saw the original post on a progressive board.

[jean]

38. You're saying we're compassionate torturers? One rung above Saddam?

It's torture and I'm sick of people parsing the issue.

There are 4000 prisoners in that hell hole - Seymour Hersh says there is video of our people doing things to young Iraqi boys that he could not repeat in a radio interview.

There are images of our people "having sex with" RAPING Iraqi women prisoners.

Torture - plain and simple. In Our Name. You can parse it, compare to Saddam, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Hitler and review all the text and images you want.

Bush let it happen - our last shreds of what little dignity we had are gone.

[Oddman]

40. Those rape pictures are going to be coming out soon . . .

and more torture pictures from other prisons . . .


“I is sorry . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .that we got caught!”

[Ms. Clio]

41. well let's try an experiment and shove a broom up YOUR ass

Then we'll see if you call it torture or humiliation.

[Bandit]

43. You forgot the one about throwing babies out of incubaters.

How do you know how Saddam tortured anyone? Fox News told you so.

[spanone]

44. No, don't think so. I saw a pic of someone with electric wires attached

to their fingers. Seems like electricity is a bit above humiliation.

[tom_paine]

45. Yes, there are still a few levels of difference between the Busheviks and

Saddam.

The way to keep it that way (if that's even possible anymore, I pity those who will have to live under the Reign of George P. Caligula in 30 years if the Imperial Family isn't stopped) is to resist ANY move that makes us more like Saddam and less like the post-WWII egalitarian Old American Republic.

Of course, we have made SO MANY moves toward "Saddam-ness" in arenas besides torture and brutality, Imperial Amerika has enough in common with Saddam's Iraq for my tastes.

I think we have very much the same Bloated Lying Punditocracy, tho' our Pravda TV has better Production Values (take that, Saddam TV!)

Yes, there are still differences between the Busheviks and Saddam in the arenas of torture and brutality. Whoopee. Notice how we're closing the gap?

[x-g.o.p.er]

55. The gap is closing, though...

And when we are no longer able to voice a complaint against our government for their actions, then we will be in a land no better than what Iraq was. Bush doesn't completely control the media yet, or these pictures would have never seen the light of day.

But with laws like the Patriot Act, and Patriot II on the way, I fear the day of one-party rule, and the days of dissent without fear of repercussion is closer than many would care to admit.

How are ya, Tom?

And just to answer the original question, it is not physical torture, but mental humiliation and degradation, while not physicvally punishing, can leave psychological scars on a person in ways that are far more damaging than what an old-fashioned ass-whippin' would leave. So yes, it is torture.

[tom_paine]

65. Very well, x-g.o.p.er, despite the Totalitarian Darkness threatening

Need I say I completely agree with your sentiments. Oh, and unPATRIOT II is already being passed as amendments of unrelated bills.

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=1400...

It's bad.

[x-g.o.p.er]

69. WHAT???!!!!

Oh my God....this is worse than I had feared. I had no idea, and I thought I was somewhat of an informed individual. It is terrifying how sinister out government can be to her citizenry.

[tom_paine]

84. Yes. As terrifying as Germany in the 1930s

Will we get as bad as all that. I suspect not, simply because of the sheer volume of direct evil and horror inflicted.

Will we get as bad as Stalinist Russia? Probably not, for the same reason.

Will we get as bad as Ferdinand Marcos' Phillipines? We're just about there NOW.

For "Benino Aquino" read "Paul Wellstone".

Sorry to be the bearer of ill tidings, pal. But you're better off knowing even if it do sting a bit.

[goodhue]

46. no

According to the UN Convention against Torture, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.

[kentuck]

48. How do you know that?

Let's keep in mind Saddam hung prisoners from their handcuffs (with their hands BEHIND them) from moving ceiling fans for days at a time. He fed people into wood chippers. He extracted fingernails and administered electric shocks w/ a cattle probe. He would throw blindfolded people off four-story buildings...a height he determined would do the most damage w/o actually killing them."

Were you there? Who told you? Where did you see it or read it? I'm not saying it's not very possible but I think yhou are pulling shit out of your ass that you heard some place and you have no way to verify? Perhaps you can quote the sources?

[qanda]

49. Why is Saddam Hussein the standard by which we now operate?

Also, if Saddam Hussein wasn't the one to actually perform these acts then shouldn't we stop saying that Saddam Hussein tortured his own people unless we're willing to also say George W. Bush tortured Iraqis?

[blondeatlast]

54. Excellent post. Excellent. Wish I'd said that. nt

[jean]

103. pbl - what an excellent post. Your wise comment has been added

to my sig line and linked to your post.

[nomaco-10]

51. You've got to be kidding me, right? I"M MAD!!!!

There are 1000 pictures available to the press for publication but they are so horrendous, we will never see them. Iraqi prisoners were raped with broomsticks and light bulbs and made to have homosexual sex acts against their will and were beaten to DEATH by AMERICANS!!! You want to come here and rationalize these acts in comparison to Saddam Hussein, how are we any different now? Think about it!!

I left this board for an extended absence because of the very posts that people like yourself were allowed to spew under the guise of free speech when other good Dem's and humanitarians were tombstoned for mild personal attacks. People like yourself have been allowed to thrive and take over this board and have been able to spread this particular kind of venomous rationalizations on this democratic board for too long. I'm going to sit back and watch the kind of response this kind of right wing sicko point of view gets and see exactly what democraticunderground stands for.

[Jack_Dawson]

59. Dude - Chill

Like I said in a previous post, I've been to torture museums and read first-hand accounts of torture from political exiles, so I've come to associate the word "torture" with some pretty horrendous things. Things your mind would never imagine in a million years. But I'll accept the argument that there are different degrees of torture. But please refrain from lumping me into Hannity/Limbaugh apologists...I detest everything they represent. I have a right to raise questions and ask for different perspectives.

[nomaco-10]

108. Jask Dawson went down in the Hollywood hype of the.....

melodrama of a sinking ship by the name of the Titanic. How interesting that you would take the name of a Hollywood made phantom character from a bastardised version of a story of a ship that the main story that should be told is that of a "caste" of characters in a situation that whose life and death depended on the social standing and the price of a ticket. Think about that Jack Dawson, when you think that those that die in Iraqi prisons aren't worthy to wade water and survive in your pathetiic scenario......

I think you must be very young and of draft age coming up in 2005. Take care Jack Dawson and try to avoid the work assignment of prison guards. May the gods help us all and the new generation that has been spawned to be called upon to fight the so called war on terror...

[Jack_Dawson]

118. Tell me more, Mr. Profiler

I'm fascinated by your profound reach of an analogy.

[thebigidea]

138. how is broomstick sodomy and murder not "pretty horrendous"?

[Ms. Clio]

143. Don't expect an answer to that question

For this charming fellow, no photos of broomstick sodomy = no torture.

[thebigidea]

149. well, there's a picture of a dead guy and details on how he died.

How that ranks as mere "abuse" is beyond me.

[Ms. Clio]

164. It's beyond me, too n/t

[CTLawGuy]

52. cause we're Murrica!

and Murricans arent capable of torture

[blondeatlast]

53. You're kidding, right?

I can't believe I'm reading this.

Black is black; torture is torture--it doesn't matter whether the "good guys" or the "bad guys" do it.

And if it's just "humiliation" let's forgive the other side for "humiliating" our soldiers and captives.

No way. No EFFING way.

[JHBowden]

56. "Abuse" is more appropriate, I think.

As long as there was no extreme physical pain, of course.

[Ms. Clio]

64. Is there extreme physical pain when a broomstick is inserted

into one's body?

Try it with a pal and get back to us on it, okay?

[Eric J in MN]

66. Beating a man to death is torture. (nt)

nt

[JHBowden]

71. Naked piles of men, however, is humilation.

[Ms. Clio]

72. So did you do the broomstick experiment yet? Torture or not?

[JHBowden]

75. Sodomy is probably torture.

No, I have no plans on trying it.

Most of the reports I've seen have spoke of the piles and the man with the electrodes. Given our government's record elsewhere and other reports, there is a high probability torture may have been going on. Belief doesn't constitute knowledge, however; I will not speculate and shall wait for concrete evidence to arrive.

[Ms. Clio]

80. You need to read the New Yorker article

This is about far more than piles of naked men.

The artile is titled "TORTURE AT ABU GHRAIB"

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

[JHBowden]

85. Ok, that's torture.

Major General Antonio M. Taguba noted there was

"Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee."

[Ms. Clio]

90. Yeah it's torture

Appalling and heartbreaking.

Thanks for taking the time to read the piece.

[BiggJawn]

57. So when is the "line crossed"

I don't believe anything that US troops are alleged to have done in that prison are allowed undr the Geneva Conventions.

So how about if they shove lightsticks up their asses for 10 days in arow? Would THAT constitute torture THEN?

[NNN0LHI]

60. What flavor Kool-Ade you been drinking. It must me good n/t

[kiahzero]

61. Let's see

Would you call it torture if I threatened you with attack dogs? Sicced attack dogs on you?

Would you call it torture if I sodomized you with a broomstick?

Would you call it torture if I burned you with chemicals?

I know if it were happening to me, I'd call it torture. But maybe I just have too much compassion for my fellow man.

[Eric J in MN]

63. If someone poured phosphoric acid on you, would that be torture? nt

nt

[whosinpower]

67. Torture is the most accurate phrase

for what was done to the prisoners. They were beaten, they were electrocuted, they were humiliated, dehumanized. Face it man - it was torture.

And regardless of whatever catchphrase you find more appealing, it still stands that these acts are totally unnacceptable. You should be ashamed of yourself not to condemn what has occured in the fullest and most robust manner.

And not only should the troops who committed these CRIMES be held accountable, but so too should the CIA interrogators, the private contract interrogators as well. As it stands, private contractors are not subject to military law, there is no Iraqi law....so where is the justice waiting for them???????? HMMMMMMMMM????????

[mouse7]

68. No, Jack, you were just supposed to read the freeper threads.

You weren't supposed to cut and paste your posts from them.

[blondeatlast]

76. I should be laughing at a great post; but I'm shaking my head instead.

Mouse7, you nailed it.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gulliver]

73. I'd have to go with torture.

Humiliation is painful too. These prisoners could suffer from this the rest of their lives. Mental/spiritual pain matters as much as physical pain. They are human beings.

[troublemaker]

74. Ask the victim

Would you rather I punch you in the face of make you masturbate in front of a cheering crowd of psychos? If the victim would prefer the punch then the alternative hurts him more than the punch would, and should be considered worse than punching him. Right?

I've thought about the benefits of caning and such -- given a choice between a year in prison or a flogging I would chose the flogging in a heartbeat. So in what sense is incarceration more humane?

[oldcoot]

92. One example

The case Dhia al-Shweiri is evidence that Iraqis may look at this incident differently than Americans. He was tortured by both Hussein and the United States and he considers what the United States did to him worse than what Saddam Hussein did to him (see: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/ar... )

[bullimiami]

77. ok, jack.

come on over.
ill jam a glowstick up your ass.
assf*(k you with a broom
make you blow some guy.
have you stand around naked on a box with a hood on your head and "threaten" to exectrocute you.
oh then i will actually electrocute you with wires on your d*(k and soles of your feet, bash your head in and send you back to your family in a vegetative coma.
then ill take your 70 year old grandmother, tell her shes a donkey, put a harness on her and ride her around.
then ill drag you around like a dog, naked.
mmm
then ill pee on you and stack you in a pyramid with a bunch of other naked hooded guys.
having fun yet?
no?
well then ill beat you to death, pack you on ice, stick an iv in you and pretend im taking your dead ass to the hospital and dump you in a ditch somewhere to rot.

you are an idiot.

[arcos]

79. I couldn't agree more. n/t

[Jack_Dawson]

86. Who's the idiot?

I only asked a question. You're the one demonstrating freeperlike incivility. I've seen piles of naked people. If there are other pix I've missed please post. Please send me the pix of old women being ridden like donkeys. Send me the pix of broom sodomy and "bashing in of heads". I keep hearing about them, but haven't seen them yet.

[Ms. Clio]

91. Read the New Yorker article

Titled, oddly enough, TORTURE AT ABU GHRAIB

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

[blondeatlast]

94. We should be concerned at the mere ALLEGATIONS of OUR

military doing this.

There is this little document called the Geneva Convention.

(snip)
1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
(snip)

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

If it's good enough for the World Court, it's good enough for me.

[goodhue]

99. Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading

indeed

[DrWeird]

97. Quit playing dumb.

It's all over the news. The picture of a man being electrocuted was on the front page yesterday. 60 minutes showed a man beated to death.

When the pictures of US troops raping children come out will you still say it wasn't bad?

Now it's your turn, show us the pictures of Saddam sticking people in wood chippers and hanging them from ceiling fans. While your at it, show the pictures of Saddam taking babies out of incubators.

[bullimiami]

147. Read the damn news JACK

Get your head out of the sand and READ.

[Jack_Dawson]

158. Tom Brokaw's not the news?

[salin]

184. So Brokaw is more reliable

than citations and coverage of the military's own investigation? See Seymour Hersh's article in the New Yorker that is based on the Pentagon investigation and report. Note also that noone in the administration has attacked the article as untrue - probably because it is based on their own (military) investigation.

[blondeatlast]

78. USA, military, infliction, prisoners in our custody, torture, human rights

violations.

I hate that I'm seeing these words put together.

[info being]

82. Would you care to redefine it?

Your post is sickening. Why can't bad things just be called bad things. Why the fuck do Americans always have to spin and distort everything.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Think Psycological

I undrestnad why you may have a problem grasping this

Physical torture is always EASY to spot, the psycological kind
is very hard to spot

[LynneSin]

87. We were suppose to make Iraq a better country

And instead we do the same exact crap

It was torture, there is no other way to describe it. Unless you'd like to have things clamped to your balls!

[PurityOfEssence]

88. THEY DIDN'T KNOW THEY WOULDN'T BE KILLED AT ANY MINUTE!

Sorry for the all caps, but what is the matter with people who don't understand this? This is not a frat prank; pledges don't worry that anyone would ever try to KILL them, and they can get out at any time they want.

Look from their point of view: we invaded their country after holding them in subjugation for a decade WHEN THEY'D NEVER THREATENED US. We overran their country, killed people and allowed complete mayhem to consume the country. We are also of an alien culture and religion.

Those people may well have thought that they were going to be killed, and the degradation would have made them feel vulnerable to the fellow prisoners who might want to off them later to hush it all up. This is torture. What's the matter with you?

[noiretextatique]

93. what is the context that you prefer the word "torture" to be kept in?

in the saddam context, perhaps? why do you suppose otherwise decent people decided to "humiliate" these prisonsers...just for the heck of it?
the purpose was the same as with other forms of torture, and it wasn't just to humiliate.

[blondeatlast]

96. My preferred definition: the Geneva Convention

relating to the treatment of those in custody:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.


That definition works for me, tyvm.

[KoKo]

98. Well...we DID put Saddam in power and sell him all his Chemical Weapons

and Senator Robert Byrd put into the "Congressional Record" the amounts from Lilly Pharmaceutical and others what it was we sold them...so putting that in context, and seeing photos of American leaders shaking and holding hands with Saddam...one does wonder what our policy is when a "Dictator Goes Bad" in reference to Saddam!

I, personally am wondering how as an American Citizen, I respond when a "Dictator goes Bad." Because the Chimp is the best example of this I've seen in my lifetime. And I was around in Viet Nam..so I'm not a kid in this??

[HornBuckler]

100. NO

[gpandas]

101. is it getting any clearer to you? n/t

[deacon]

102. How about the murders? are they overstated or just college hazing? n/t

[blondeatlast]

104. Even many of the Freepers get it. Maybe you can understand them:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Links to "Lynndie" thread at FR.

[Pithlet]

105. Nope. It's torture.

Saddam may have done even more horrific things, but that doesn't mean what the US did isn't torture. Honestly, I don't know how anyone can look at those photos and claim it is just "humiliation".

[randr]

106. WHAT ABOUT THE REPORTED MURDERS????

[Sandpiper]

107. You are a disgusting apologist

Who is attempting to minimize the inexcusable behavior of a band of thugs, goons, and abusers.

[Jack_Dawson]

111. Oh please (drama?)

Didn't know asking a question = apologist

[Sandpiper]

161. Yes, you are an apologist

And yes, you are attempting to minimize the abuse and torture of Iraqi prisoners.

And yes, I am disgusted by the attempts of you and like minded people who are trying to put lipstick on this particular pig.



And stop pretending like you asked some innocuous question.

"Isn't torture overstating it a bit?" is a question a la "So when did you stop beating your wife?"

[Name removed]

193. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kellanved]

109. Call it what you want - it doesn't matter

But consider that the main damage is foreign policy, especially the problems that arise from this will be present after the Elections.
Consider:
-since when is Saddam the scale to judge if something is right or wrong?
-the international community and media calls it torture
-the Arab world calls it torture
-international law indicates that it was torture
-...

Use "abuse" or "torture" it is a purely domestic thing - the damage done to US foreign policy won't be changed one bit because of the word used in the US.
I'd say being honest and using "torture" might help the US image abroad, using "abuse" might help to rescue the US Army's reputation at home.

[Junkdrawer]

110. Who could call being raped with phosphorous light bulbs torture?

Me.

[TNMOM]

112. When another man forces anal sex on you

under the threat of death, then you'll have your answer.

[Jack_Dawson]

114. Was there a picture of that?

I must've missed it. That would definitely qualify.

[Junkdrawer]

119. It's in the Taguba report...

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001

8. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):

a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;

f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

[Jack_Dawson]

125. Forced anal sex?

I can't find it. But the mere threat of it would be horrible though I'll admit. Like I said, all I've seen is a pile of naked bodies. But if the torture stories are proven to be true then obviously that's horrendous and unacceptable.

[Ms. Clio]

128. It's clear we are wasting our time on you

You are demanding photos that don't exist--why don't you read the New Yorker article?

I guess that would blow your weak ass argument right out of the water, wouldn't it?

[Junkdrawer]

141. Oh, the photos exist alright. Hersh says we've only seen 1/1000th...

of the photos.

[Ms. Clio]

145. You're right

God only knows what depravity is depicted in them.

[Jack_Dawson]

152. Mel...seriously you gotta chill

What happened to innocent til proven guilty?

[Ms. Clio]

163. Jack...seriously you gotta read a little more widely

Whose guilt is in doubt here--the sadists in the photos?

What about Saddam--is he innocent until proven guilty, too?

[MAlibdem]

113. I wouldn't say torture

But rape maybe...

[Ms. Clio]

134. Is pouring phosphoric acid on a person torture?

Is attacking them with dogs torture?

Is beating someone to death torture?

And I've got news for you--rape is most certainly a form of torture.

[matcom]

115. why don't i force YOU to CUM in your 'countryman's' MOUTH

on camera

yeah, just 'Frat Fun'

[Wind Dancer]

117. Torture it is!

These men had no idea if they would live or die. (some have died)

It's all torture, physical, emotional, psychological, etc.

The Stepfords in the WH have just redefined Websters.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

120. No shoving a broom up your ass qualifies as torture

try it sometime

I think you have possibly not read all the available reports and are basing it on the pictures which are snapshots in time of what went on between them.

Beating the crap out of people..having non medical staff sew their wounds and shoving broomsticks up their ass does qualify as torture under the law.

[jk121764]

121. torture definately

This was torture that would not leave physical scars (for the most part) but inflict psychological that will last a lifetime. Sick perverts in the intelligence community thought up the most vile, hateful, humiliating experience they could possibly inflict on these Arab men. War crime trials NOW!

[RapidCreek]

122. Can I stick a broom handle up your ass?

How about jamming a broom handle up your ass while having some guy blow a load of spunk all over your face?

Ya up for it? Let me know....if you are....we can give it a wing and see if the experience rises to the level of your definition of torture.

RC

[Jack_Dawson]

127. Where was THAT pic?

I must've missed it. That would definitely qualify. I just wasn't sure naked twister was "torture" in the chopping off limbs sense. Everyone calm down seriously. Take a Xanax and have some wine.

[Junkdrawer]

129. FYI: Sy Hersh has said that for every picture the public has seen, there..

are a thousand more. And there are video tapes. He also said the worst was the rape of children in the women and children block.

[Jack_Dawson]

150. Well obviously that's insanely fucked up

Did that really happen? GI's raping children? I can't imagine that would occur. Maybe I'm naive.

[salin]

187. Sadly... it is a predictable (and common) side effect of war

not unheard of - and American GIs are not immune. Part of why before we gleefully jump into the next military adventure - folks should be much more honest about the costs - not just money - but in terms of damage done to some of those who serve - damage that isn't always physical - and thus apparent. War really is hell. Why do we keep forgetting that?

[Ms. Clio]

132. What is your obsession with photos?

Buy a porno mag and take a Viagra.

[jeanmarc]

135. It's your topic title

You have to take this a bit with that sort of title. It sounds like an apologist's line.

http://www.agonist.org/annex/taguba.htm

Read that link. It's torture.

[RapidCreek]

140. Read about half way down the page

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:3PmJGRTgB7AJ:www.d...

Since I am rather tired of it I'm not going to point you to the link of the man having his face masterbated upon....it's around...and has been on the nightly news for the last three days.

RC

[CJCRANE]

206. Jack, the pictures we've seen

only represent a split second in time (and are apparently the least hard-core of the 1000 taken). How do you know what happened before or after they were taken? Plus how were these people coerced into these acts?

(BTW, you've certainly brought out the strength of feeling on this issue!)

[Bonobo]

123. Yes it was torture and you really need to check yourself,

You need help. Seriously.

[x-g.o.p.er]

124. Just because it's not physical abuse...

doesn't mean it isn't torture.

[Jack_Dawson]

126. I get that

really...I do. Like I said, all I've seen are the naked twister pix (which admittedly are horrible).

[x-g.o.p.er]

130. And if the other allegations are true...

such as murder, sodomy with a broom handle, etc., how can you NOT consider that torture?

[Jack_Dawson]

151. Of course that's torture!

My post was based on the naked twister pix. Hey you guys gotta understand I've been very busy w/ work and haven't had time to scroll through the thousands of pix apparently y'all have. But obviously rape and acid burns and the rest fall under torture. All I've seen are what's on NBC Nightly News so my bad for not digging deeper.

[x-g.o.p.er]

154. Fair enough...

And just for the record, I am on active duty and I know for a fact I was NEVER trained to do shit like that--from naked twister on up--or down, as the case may be. They need to be court-martialed and thrown in Ft. Leavenworth.

[nolabels]

196. Yea, but then they get to have a trial and call wittinesses

It might only be a court martial, but if and when they prove they were following instructions then it gets to go higher. That is why they won't get to go to Ft.Leavenworth. They will pull the plug on it because one can be almost sure operatives from outside the military was involved. This has been stated and written about many times over already

[Junkdrawer]

157. It's so insanely bad that I understand when people....

especially ex-military, go through a period of denial.

But there are heroes in all this. Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba in particular is one hell of a man.

[Piperay]

131. If this was done to you

what would you say it was, put yourself in the other guy's place.

[Forkboy]

133. Fuckin a

you make me sick.

[JanMichael]

136. Rationalize it all you want. So it wasn't bamboo up the nails?

BFD. It was Torture, Humiliation, Degradation, and Domination, which by almost any name is TORTURE when done in a systematic way by an Oppressor to the Powerless.

[Redleg]

137. Is having a broomstick shoved up your ass without your consent torture?

Is being yanked around by a leash around your neck torture?

[dpt223]

139. "torture"

You can call whatever you want, but the bottom line is that it's fucked up and shouldn't be happening.

[blondeatlast]

146. Precisely. Please note the OP is NOT the prevailing attitude for DU.

Welcome!

[DrWeird]

142. Here lies a disruptor.

Notice the brightly colored plumage. The disruptor will often decorate his posts with copious amounts of hypocrasy. Here we see the disruptor taking republican propaganda at face value; "Osama Hussein was absolutely horrible, he stuck Kuwaiti babies in wood chippers, he raped Jessica Lynch up the ass with WMDs. Yet when he is told of well documented accounts of US troops abusing Iraqis, he discounts it because there are no photographs. Disruptors are the masters of self deception. Everybody has seen photographs of Iraqis who have been beaten to death, of Iraqis being electrocuted. But when discussing the issue, the disruptor only remembers the photos of "naked twister" (note the reference to entertaining games). When this is brought up, the disruptor noticably evaporates into the background posts. When frightened, the disruptor uses his only defense mechanism, a barrage of personal attacks. When he realizes nobody has fallen for his debate, he is alarmed by the numbers who have spoken against him, he calls for people to "spare the outrage." People who point out he is critically flawed should "take some xanax with their wine."

Indeed, the disruptor is a disgusting little paranoid. And if the plight of the disruptor is ignored, they will soon be all extinct.

[Jack_Dawson]

153. Profound

[starroute]

144. Physical pain is not the defining aspect of torture

The point of torture is quite simply to "break" people -- by any means available. In earlier, cruder times, physical pain was the preferred method for accomplishing this.

But in the wake of World War II, the CIA began to look for methods that were both more effective and easier to hide from outside scrutiny. That is why they became so obsessed with experiments in mind control -- truth serums, LSD, sensory deprivation. There's some history of all this in an Alexander Cockburn article from a couple of years ago at http://www.counterpunch.org/torture2.html

None of the CIA's mind control attempts of the 1950's seemed to have worked very well. That's probably why they moved on to methods of psychological torture instead. Those, together with the milder forms of physical torture (beatings, electrical shocks, chaining people in stressful positions) have been the preferred techniques for torturers in nominally democratic societies (like Israel or the apartheid regime in South Africa) ever since. When I was reading Amnesty International reports in the 1980's, Iraq and Syria were unique in their willingness to make regular use of more extreme forms of physical torture.

But remember -- the purpose of all torture is to break people. That doesn't mean just to break down their will to resist. It means to break down their sense of self. And the sense of self doesn't heal up like a broken bone. Once lost, it can never be fully regained.

The torturers of Al Ghraib have been quite frank about this. They've stated that the objective was to reduce the prisoners to a juvenile, dependent state where they would be more compliant with their interrogtors. And it is becoming quite clear as the interviews with released prisoners trickle out that these are, indeed, broken men.

That is the real crime that is being committed in Iraq. And it is worse than torture alone, because it is violence against the innermost personhood of the individual. If there were a better name for it than "torture" -- one that communicated the real obscenity of the acts involved -- I would be glad to use it. But for now, the word "torture," which for most people means the ultimate offense that can be committed against another living creative, will do well enough.

[Jack_Dawson]

155. Thank you for a civil post

and for not threatening me w/ a broomhandle. Your arguments are cogent ones.

[Heyo]

148. All that is true.....

And by actual definition, I think this qualifies more as degredation and humiliation...

But that's not the point..... this is WAY over the line is repuslive, disgusting and revolting.. and the people responsible should be made an example of......

Heyo

[Ms. Clio]

166. Oh look another one

Let's shove a broomstick up your ass and see if feels like "humiliation" or "torture" to you.

[ibegurpard]

156. No it isn't

eom

[MrSlayer]

159. Not at all. Torture is exactly the term to use.

If you can't see that, you have a real problem. These are nothing less than war crimes and Nazi tactics. Setting dogs on naked prisoners is straight out of the Warsaw ghettos. Electrodes on genitals, brooms inserted rectally, riding 70 year women like donkeys, leashed and dragged around like a dog....Yeah that's not torture.

[MORTEN]

160. according to the officials...think that summaries it well...

Definitions

torture

noun

1. The infliction of severe pain or mental suffering, especially as a punishment or as a means of persuading someone to give information.
2a. Great physical or mental suffering;

Thesaurus: torment, suffering, pain, anguish, misery, agony, distress.
2b. A cause of this.

verb tortured, torturing

1. To subject someone to torture.
2. To cause someone to experience great physical or mental suffering.
3. To force something out of its natural state or position; to distort.

[TexasMexican]

162. I tend to agree.

I dont think I would call what I have seen in most of the pictures that have been shown as torture. Clearly no one is betting bamboo sticks shoved under thier nails or being physically mutilated.

However its definately abuse and its still wrong. I'm sure there are probably atleast a few cases of "actual" torture.

[Ms. Clio]

168. Do you begin to understand that the photos are not the whole fucking story

????

Did you read this thread before you gave us your learned definitions?

[TexasMexican]

171. reading comprehension is fundamental

"I dont think I would call what I have seen in most of the pictures that have been shown as torture."

"I'm sure there are probably atleast a few cases of "actual" torture."

[Jack_Dawson]

173. TexMex don't bother - people don't read here

They just pile on. Thanks for actually READING my post though...

[Ms. Clio]

175. Poor picked-on Jack

Everyone just "misread" your posts--yeah, that's the ticket.

Pobrecito.

[Jack_Dawson]

181. Poor high-horse Mel

Keep interpreting the photos for me, oh Omniscient One. You know best what is torture and what is not. Nobody is disputing that the pix are repugnant and altogether fucked up. In play is the term "torture." I happen to think a picture of naked twister doesn't quite qualify. Does that mean there aren't other pix or credible stories out there about soldiers doing unspeakable things to Iraqis? Could very well be the case.

[Ms. Clio]

183. You are so disingenuous

You started this thread by listing all the horrible things Saddam has done, then saying the photos weren't so bad in comparison. But of course, the photos are not the whole story of what actually is happening to those people, which is where your argument just goes to hell in a handbasket.

"Could be credible stories"??? Golly, the military thinks there are lots and lots of them--do you need the photos to be sure?

[Ms. Clio]

176. By the way, is Saddam innocent until proven guilty???

Yes or no.

[TexasMexican]

179. He is about as guilty as the American soldiers who are accused of torture.

[Ms. Clio]

182. Is he? So where are the photos of Saddam torturing people?

Links, please?

[TexasMexican]

186. maybe

but there is other evidence that shows that he endorsed the actions, just as there is other evidence other than the pictures that show that there was some torture.

[Ms. Clio]

189. It's not "some"--the military's own investigation shows it was "systemic"

Using your logic, then, Bush is also guilty of torture, since evidence suggests he endorsed these actions. Well, I have no problem with that.

[TexasMexican]

177. When I first saw the pictures.

I too was thinking about posting a thread such as this, however I decided against it because I figured I knew what the outcome would be (just like this).

Those prisoners were obviously abused, and from what I've read some of them were tortured.

However in my Mexican-American mind being blindfolded and having your nude picture taken with a white girl pointing at your penis is not torture.

I think its fucked up that in the Arab world they probably consider this the most horrific torture possible, and how in thier minds the fact that it was done by mostly white Americans somehow makes it more fucked up than any of the far more brutal things that Saddam did.

Yes our people fucked up, but we are trying to correct that. Yet they hate us and they probably love that fucker Saddam now.

[salin]

slightly ironic

for those who continue to only rely on "pictures" rather than reading the actual text of articles based on the military's own investigation. Correct - lots of folks seem not to be willing to bother to read...

[Ms. Clio]

174. Yes, reading comprehension is indeed fundamental

It doesn't matter if you are "sure" or not, torture did in, fact, occur, as you would know if you actually did any reading. And according to Sy Hersh, there are many,many, many more photos.

[TexasMexican]

178. Perhaps you should learn to comprehend what you read?

I said "I dont think I would call what I have seen in most of the pictures that have been shown as torture."

Which is to say, that if I was to rely soly on the pictures that were shown on the mainstream media, I would not consider those torture. You see I used the word most, as most of the pictures that have been shown are those of the naked people in the pile or the one of the white girl pointing at the other guys.

I know there are other pictures. I have seen some of them however from the batches that I have seen most of them are of the above type stuff.

As for your statement saying that I would know for a fact that torture did occur if I did any reading. I have read the allegations of torture. That is not proof of torture, however I think that its likely that there was toture. However I dont think that the majority of pictures that have been shown in the media show torture.

[Ms. Clio]

185. It doesn't matter what you think--the Geneva Convention is what matters

Like I said, read the thread--lots of good info and links on what constitutes "torture," whether that meets your definition of it, or not.

[TexasMexican]

188. Not my definition of torture.

Once again. Like I said, I wouldnt consider what I saw in the majority of those pictures as torture.

Just so we can be clear so you wont have to guess anymore.

IMO Torture = inflicting physical pain.

[salin]

191. having been raped

I can attest that it does inflict physical pain.

just my two cents.

Per there "not being a picture" (published, thus far)... see my post in this section. The report cites sodomy with physical objects (pain) and allegations of rape (pain) ... so the fact of no "pictures" (though we have only seen a few of reported "thousand or more"...) would be attributed, in your opinion... to what?

[salin]

190. why do you think that is?

the pictures don't exist?

there is some self-censorship for "decency's sake"?

some were deemed too controversial ?

media outlets partially heeded the pentagon's requests not to print all as some could inflame sentiments so high in the region that it might put troops in further danger?

By the way - for those who haven't read the New Yorker article based on the military's own investigation and report:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

TORTURE AT ABU GHRAIB
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
American soldiers brutalized Iraqis. How far up does the responsibility go?
Issue of 2004-05-10
Posted 2004-04-30

In the era of Saddam Hussein, Abu Ghraib, twenty miles west of Baghdad, was one of the world’s most notorious prisons, with torture, weekly executions, and vile living conditions. As many as fifty thousand men and women—no accurate count is possible—were jammed into Abu Ghraib at one time, in twelve-by-twelve-foot cells that were little more than human holding pits.

In the looting that followed the regime’s collapse, last April, the huge prison complex, by then deserted, was stripped of everything that could be removed, including doors, windows, and bricks. The coalition authorities had the floors tiled, cells cleaned and repaired, and toilets, showers, and a new medical center added. Abu Ghraib was now a U.S. military prison. Most of the prisoners, however—by the fall there were several thousand, including women and teen-agers—were civilians, many of whom had been picked up in random military sweeps and at highway checkpoints. They fell into three loosely defined categories: common criminals; security detainees suspected of “crimes against the coalition”; and a small number of suspected “high-value” leaders of the insurgency against the coalition forces.
(snip)

A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the Army’s prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was under way. A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not meant for public release, was completed in late February. Its conclusions about the institutional failures of the Army prison system were devastating. Specifically, Taguba found that between October and December of 2003 there were numerous instances of “sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses” at Abu Ghraib. This systematic and illegal abuse of detainees, Taguba reported, was perpetrated by soldiers of the 372nd Military Police Company, and also by members of the American intelligence community. (The 372nd was attached to the 320th M.P. Battalion, which reported to Karpinski’s brigade headquarters.) Taguba’s report listed some of the wrongdoing:

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

There was stunning evidence to support the allegations, Taguba added—“detailed witness statements and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence.” Photographs and videos taken by the soldiers as the abuses were happening were not included in his report, Taguba said, because of their “extremely sensitive nature.”
The photographs—several of which were broadcast on CBS’s “60 Minutes 2” last week—show leering G.I.s taunting naked Iraqi prisoners who are forced to assume humiliating poses. Six suspects—Staff Sergeant Ivan L. Frederick II, known as Chip, who was the senior enlisted man; Specialist Charles A. Graner; Sergeant Javal Davis; Specialist Megan Ambuhl; Specialist Sabrina Harman; and Private Jeremy Sivits—are now facing prosecution in Iraq, on charges that include conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty toward prisoners, maltreatment, assault, and indecent acts. A seventh suspect, Private Lynndie England, was reassigned to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, after becoming pregnant.

Much more…

[blondeatlast]

165. Whatever it's called, it's a WAR CRIME, prohibited by the Geneva

Convention.

Why put a fine point on it?

Middle Easterners won't--I don't intend to either.

[West Coast Democrat]

167. Safe to assume, you wouldn't mind that stuff being done to you?

since it's not "torture"??

[Kool Kitty]

169. Okay, so I'm late to this party but I still want to

put my two cents in. It doesn't matter what Hussein did, everyone knows and agrees that he was ruthless and awful. We can't use that as an excuse to explain away what our soldiers did. We are supposed to be better than that. We don't do those things to prisoners. Period.

[Donkeyboy75]

170. It's torture. Just because it isn't as bad as other forms doesn't make it

less so.

[opihimoimoi]

180. The Denials, the down playing, the excuses by the Pubs will come back to

Haunt them. Caught with their Lies and denials, the Pubs do poor service to themselve, such is the nature of Rationalization.

To the Iraqis, this was worse than torture, it was a slap to their faces, to their National Pride. That the Pubs fail to see this will come back later in Spades. The Angry President reveals the basic Pub Philosophy, "Sorry bout that", and, to make matters worse, to the wrong Nation, Jordan. Bush is a loose cannon on the quarter deck.

[not systems]

194. That wood chipper story was a lie told by a...

evangelist friend of Chabili from the INC the propaganda front
group funded by US tax dollars to pull the wool over our own
eyes on our own dollar.

25 Billion more today.

They just can't keep from stealing the cash faster and faster everyday.

[LibertyorDeath]

195. "Isn't "Torture" overstating it a bit?"

No

[shraby]

197. Torture has

many forms. Each one is as horrific as the other...no exceptions. Killing a husband or child in front of the mother..torture!
Humiliating and debasing a person..torture!
Physical abuse of any kind when the person cannot fight back..torture!
Telling a person the horrible things that can happen to them even though nothing happens..torture!
Torture is torture is torture! There is no way to dress it up in any other nicer words. The people from the top down responsible should be brought to the Hague to answer for their war crimes. Hitler didn't do his dastardly deeds personally but millions died. It's no different just because Americans are committing them. All responsible should be brought to justice. That may be the only way to regain our pride in our country.

[Skittles]

198. there is physical abuse and then there is emotional abuse

they are both extremely damaging. Humiliation IS a form of torture.

[democrank]

199. My dictionary describes torture as

severe physical OR mental suffering. Close enough.

[Walt Starr]

200. The only thing I find sicker than the torture of the Iraqi prisoners

are people who are so sick aas to attempt to downplay the horror.

[oblivious]

208. Agree!

[drfemoe]

201. Not convinced yet ??

Rumsfeld: It gets worse
By ALAN FREEMAN
From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Washington — A contrite Donald Rumsfeld apologized yesterday to Iraqi prisoners abused by their American captors, and warned that the outrage will worsen if other images of the actions of U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison become public.

"There are a lot more photographs and videos that exist," the U.S. Defence Secretary told the Senate armed services committee. "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse. That's just a fact.

"I mean, I looked at them last night and they're hard to believe," he continued glumly, without going into detail.
...
"The pictures I've seen depict conduct, behaviour that is so brutal and so cruel and so inhumane that anyone engaged in it or involved in it would have to be brought to justice," he said. ...

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.2004050...
***
The shredder (wood chopper) story has never been verified. It has been disputed. I heard a former prisoner today say HE had had a toenail ripped off. And a back tooth pulled (no dentist).

If you're not convinced yet, maybe the new, improved, graphic photos/videos will convince you. Even D. Rumsfeld believes they are "inhumane".
Please let us know if they meet your standard of "torture".

[Name removed]

202. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tkmorris]

203. That isn't torture?

OK, maybe THIS would qualify. Quoting you Jack Dawson,

Jack_Dawson (1000+ posts) Wed Mar-31-04 11:02 PM
Response to Original message

2. Actually, We Probably Should Level Fallujah


in all honesty. 17% of Iraq thinks attacks upon coaltion forces is OK. 75% of Fallujah thinks it's cool. Why not firebomb the whole place? Seriously.

Somehow I am unsurprised that you feel some self-righteous ass-fucking and murder are just "humiliation". After all, they pale beside doing a "Dresden" on Fallujah. Please feel free to take your bigoted, American apologist crap and ***** ** ** **** ***.

But do have a beer while you're at it.

[arcos]

211. GOOD CATCH!!

Everyone in this thread should read this

[JCMach1]

205. I can't believe you are even asking this

[VOX]

209. Straight out of the Rush Limbaugh playbook...

The right wing is doing all it can to seriously downplay these unspeakable atrocities, to claim that they do not constitute torture, and that these incidents are tantamount to "college pranks."

And that is patently absurd and blatantly political. If it were Americans on the receiving end of these "pranks," you can bet the ranch that the right wing would be crying torture. Because that's what these incidents are, pure and simple -- torture.
- - - - - - - -
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_050404/cont...
<snip>
RUSH: Okay, what now, what am I missing? Rape, murder, and pillage? We've done that? Where did we do that? I haven't seen that. Tell me, what am I missing? All I've seen is, you know, the Britney Spears, Madonna torture photos. All I've seen is the woman with the cigarette out of her mouth, you know, pretending to aim a gun at some guy who's nude, and laughing; and I've seen, you know, the pyramid of the nude guys with hoods on like Robert Byrd birthday party. What is this rape and pillage and murder stuff now?

Oh, and do you get the tone of the question here? He has equated this incident now with Saddam Hussein's treatment of people. Now, there were mass graves, there were rape rooms, torture rooms, there was mass murder on the part of Saddam Hussein. There was no outrage about that, by the way, even when the graves were found, no outrage at all. Now all of a sudden with these stupid pictures, this reporter has equated -- and if this reporter's done it, I'm telling you they all have -- and a lot of people are now jumping on this and saying we're no better than Saddam. It all falls into play with the fact that to people on the left Bush is a bigger threat than dictators and murderers and torturers and rapists and thugs.
<snip>
CALLER: Rush, if you were in the military and you were ordered to interrogate someone even though it was an in-depth interrogation, you would do your job in a business-like manner. And I think most people would, do a difficult job that they didn't want to do in a business-like manner. These people had a job to do, but they were taking pleasure in it. There's something psychologically wrong with that. It's not the act so much. It was like a college fraternity prank that stacks up naked men --

RUSH: Exactly. Exactly my point! This is no different than what happens at the skull and bones initiation and we're going to ruin people's lives over it and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release?
<snip>

[LeahMira]

213. Humiliation isn't torture?

I would classify them more as "humiliation" than "torture"...unless there are pix I've missed.

Humiliation is, IMO, worse than physical torture. I think it attacks that part of a person that makes them human. If they survive, people can recover from physical torture and get on with their lives, perhaps disabled and surely with post-traumatic stress, but the effects of humiliation include lifelong shame... a sense that one doesn't deserve to be alive.

In addition, I'm afraid that much worse than we see is happening on a daily basis. These photos are an example of what no one felt particularly worried about showing. What must be happening that they never want known?

It's always possible to find someone who seems to be doing something worse than whatever you are doing. If the wood chippers, etc. actually existed (and I haven't seen any evidence that any of the reported abuses of Saddam's regime actually happened, although I may have missed that evidence), that fact does not excuse what happens under U.S. administration. I imagine Saddam could have pointed to a place where even worse than what he allegedly did was going on. Certainly far worse went on in Germany and in Europe during the Holocaust. That fact doesn't mitigate anything that Saddam and his people did. Children excuse their behavior by whining, "but he..." Adults are held to a higher standard.

[doni_georgia]

214. THere are pix you have missed - pix we all have missed because

they aren't released because they are so bad. Just because the torture exacted by our soldiers hasn't been as bad as the torture exacted by Saddam doesn't make it any less torture. Torture can be physical as well as pshychological. To force these Iraqi Musilims to do acts, or even imitate acts that goes SO far against their religion is psychological torture.

Some of the pictures show physical torture as well. I'm sorry, just because some monster may have performed worse methods of torture does not make this torture any less real.

[Cogito ergo doleo]

215. #17 of the Geneva Convention states

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm
(17)No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever.

How ironic it all is. The torture was specifically designed to "shame" the Iraqis, and in the end, the only shame is ours as a nation. It is an affront to the World; it is an affront to human dignity; — and every attempt to minimize what has happened shames us further. Rush Limbaugh and his ilk are weak – they are so insulated they have become unaware that with each pitiful denial they are announcing their depravity and ignorance to the World.