Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Question: Do DU'ers just want us Southern liberals to get lost?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:35 AM
Original message
Question: Do DU'ers just want us Southern liberals to get lost?
That's the impression I keep getting. And I'm really starting to get pissed offed about it. Do you want us to keep the good fight, or do you just want us to go away, so that the Bush machine steamrolls this country into a pit of hell? Which is it? I want to help, because it's my country too, and I hate what's becoming of it. But it seems like a lot of self-annointed liberal saints don't think we are worthy of carrying their water, and we are being abused at every turn. Take the posts here and replace "southerner" with "black" or "gay," or "self-annointed liberal saint" and see what what reaction you get. I'm sick of this shit. I believe in equal rights among all innocent people, but sometimes I get the feeling I'm among a minority here. I'm not leaving, but I wish some of the irrationial haters would. In short, I'm just tired of being lumped into the category of "dumb white haters" just because I'm a white guy from Alabama. If we (the Democrats) are going to take this country back, you (my fellow Democrats) can't keep slamming the screen door in my face. It's just not going to work.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. personally I love Southern liberals
I think I might prefer them to many of their northern brethren.

But that's just me.

I think most people, when they talk disparagingly of "the south" are referring to the white redneck ignorant kill-the-ragheads crowd.

Me, I want every liberal we can get.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
2. umm... no
but Southerners DO seem to get more offended by the stereotypes of their area than anybody else.

I grew up in NY. I was never bothered by the "rude New Yorker" stereotype. I now live in California, and deal with the "flakey, fruity" California stereotype. Don't let it get to you. Every region has to deal with it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Rude, or fruity, doesn't have the bite of "ignorant and hateful"
I know you are a good guy though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
3. I think most of us do realize this
but some people can't control knocking southerners the same way some can't resist treating all Christians with a broad brush.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Or Jews
We all have our stereotypes to bear
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. agreed
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. You're right, most do
But it's a sizeable minority that is just so damn hypocritical. Maybe I'm just on a rant. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. You're on a rant
and the fact that there are assholes does not mean Democrats and liberals don't want you. It means we need to win with northerners, westerners, easterners, southerners, centrists, moderates, lefties and yes, Virginia, we even need to win with our assholes. :D

I can deal with anyone til November ;-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
5. War Eagle!
To a Roll Tider.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
7. You ain't helping your cause with Bear Bryant icon
Edited on Thu May-06-04 02:05 AM by mouse7
Bear Bryant wouldn't allow black players on his football team until 1973 (on edit... found another source that said 1971). He only allowed them on his team then when other SEC teams had allowed black players on their teams and his team started getting crushed by them.

Paul "Bear" Bryant was a racist bastard. I don't give a shit how many football games the bastard won.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. You just don't understand football
just kidding.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. are you serious?
Bear Bryant integrated the teams at not only Alabama, but also Maryland, Kentucky, and Texas A&M. I'm keeping Bear. So there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. David Halberstam on Bear Bryant and failure to integrate there
Edited on Thu May-06-04 10:32 AM by Skinner
...The great test of him as a man was not whether he gave or did not give water to his players that first summer. The great test of him was how he handled the subject of race as Alabama's football coach -- as the South's signature coach on a subject of great importance, whether or not to go after black players despite regional prejudice -- during a terrible time, when the entire nation, but most importantly the deep South, was being torn apart on the issues of race, prejudice and traditional culture. I happened to be working as a reporter in the South in those years, and I remember what he did not do, as well as what he did do. The Supreme Court in 1954 had mandated integration, but the deep South states, most especially Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia were complete in their resistance to change. And Bear Bryant had arrived in Alabama, his old school, in 1958, in time to be there through much of the most bitter and painful part of that struggle.

In Alabama, lest we forget, those were the George Corley Wallace years -- his mantra was segregation yesterday, segregation today, segregation forever. And the Bear was coaching at the University of Alabama in those years. More, he was an icon in the state at the time. And he was a formidable football coach and football coaches are supposed to judge players on talent and character, and not on anything else, not on any exterior prejudices. And he was a smart enough man to know that all kinds of great football players from Alabama, some of whom just happened to be black and were not able to play for him because of the prevailing prejudice, in many cases young men who were on their way to the pros, and he knew as well that he had the law of the nation on his side now if he wanted to play them, and that only local prejudice kept him from recruiting them, and most important of all, he was the one man in all of Alabama who could go ahead and recruit them, and stand up to George Wallace, and bring the culture along with him.

And for 13 years, when he could have made a great difference, he did very little and did not really dissent from the biases of the region. Yes, he let 'Bama play an integrated Penn State team in the Liberty Bowl in 1959. But that was good for him and his players and changed very little. In truth, he denied native sons of Alabama, great players, players better than he was when he was their age, their rightful place on the state university team. It did not take a genius at that time to know something was wrong with this picture, and to know that his failure to stand apart from the worst of the region's culture diminished him as a man on something profoundly important.

We know that he knew better, that he knew that what he was going along with was wrong, and that in the end he was placing a severe ceiling on the quality of his teams, which soon would not be able to compete with the best teams in the nation. We know that in 1970, he arranged a game with Southern Cal, and that Sam (Bam) Cunningham scored two touchdowns in the first half as USC destroyed Alabama 42-21, thus changing the course of deep South football because the Alabama program was integrated the next year. And all the good old boys could later laugh and say that old Sam Cunningham did more to integrate Alabama in 30 minutes than Martin Luther King did in 16 years.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/halberstam/021220.html

Bear Bryant did nothing to help the cause of civil rights, and only allowed Black athletes on his team when they were useful and convenient to him. Looks more like Dumbya's idea of civil rights that the idea of civil rights the Democratic party has.

Expect to get grief as long as you proudly hold up racists as icons representing you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. The article is mostly subjective and gives Bryant a C+ or B-
I don't believe you have made your case.

I also notice that you use the issue of race to inflame others a lot...I find that rather curious.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. No... the state of Alabama in the 60's was doing the "inflaming"
Edited on Thu May-06-04 02:45 AM by mouse7
I find it much more curious that a "liberal" would chose as an icon a man who only integrated his football team after it became a competitive necessity.

As the article said USC's Sam Cunningham did more to integrate the state of Alabama in 30 minutes than Martin Luther King was able to accomplish in 16 years. By extention, Cunningham did more to integrate Alabama football in 30 minutes than Bear Bryant did in his first two decades as coach there

I think maybe it would do you a good bit of good to sit down and read or watch some good history on the Civil Right Movement in this country. Seems like you might need a refresher.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:45 AM
Original message
I find it curious that a
"liberal" in 2004 would make such a big scene about a 1970s football guy avatar. Who even knew? :shrug:

It's no wonder people are starting to question whether or not WE, TODAY, have a place at the Democratic table.

You're going to judge a fellow liberal, who wants to vote for your guy, because of his AVATAR?? cripes .. Somehow I am NOT surprised.

The Liberal Litmus tests are going to take a toll at the polls.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
73. I'm from the South, and know what power racist icons have
Adolph Rupp at Kentucky was basically an avowed racist. He was quoted before the 1966 NCAA Championship game saying a team of 5 black players could never defeat a team of 5 white players. It doesn't get more cut and dried than that. Yet what still the name of Kentucky's basketball stadium on the UK campus? Rupp Arena.

This icons have GREAT power to this day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #36
95. I'm really holding back here but
1.) I grew up during the civil rights movement and remember more about it than you can read since I was experiencing it before you were drinking out of a fucking cup.

2.) Your blind accusations of bigotry against a person for choosing a coach as an avatar are really beyond the pale for someone whose own fucking logic is so twisted that you claim it is legitimate to use the word bitch since rap music uses it but not the N word (again indicating you are selective in your own interpretations of things)

3.) I think it would do you a bit of good to check your own fucking self based on 1 and 2.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #95
136. More disrespect of black culture from defender of Bear Bryant
Edited on Thu May-06-04 04:15 PM by mouse7
Why do I find it not surprising that a defender of Bear Bryant has no respect for black culture either.

I check myself all the time. I'm fine.

Here's what you need to see about yourself from this discussion...

1) You are defending the major college football coach who kept his football team all white longer than anyone else.

2) You reached back to a completely different flame war (which is a major league violation of DU rules) to throw more disrepect of African-American culture into this argument.

You need some cultural sensitivity classes... quick. You also need to re-read the DU rules about the bringing up previous flame wars in threads.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #31
121. If you were the victim of racism for 30 years of your life
the racist practices of the hero of a poster who whines about inclusion might inflame your ire. It is this very god damn ignorance which brings about that which the poster complains. If people don't want to be called on hypocritical bullshit then they shouldn't proudly wrap themselves in it.

Shit, it's like having a sig pic of David Duke and complaining that people discount you as an ignorant racist asshole. Doesn't seem to me that the connection is too difficult to make.

RC
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #121
146. RC...this article attempts to tie the actions of George Wallace to the
INACTIONS of Bear Bryant. That is known as guilt by association. I have never defended racism or racists on this board and never will. IF IN FACT Bear Bryant has a racist history or advocated racism, I would not defend it but I would not come to a conclusion based on an article which essentially states "Bear Bryant was a coach in Alabama, George Wallace was the governer of Alabama, George Wallace was a racist, therefore Bear Bryant was a racist." IMHO, that is EXACTLY what the article is stating.

I don't know the history of Bear Bryant. If there is evidence that he is a racist, I wouldn't defend him.

Therefore, my question to you if you know the history of David Duke AND Bear Bryant ( I only know Dukes blatant racist inflammatory history)IS BRYANT'S PIC REALLY synonomous with Duke's?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #146
147. There is evidence he was racist.
Edited on Thu May-06-04 05:47 PM by mouse7
He was THE LAST MAJOR COLLEGE FOOTBALL COACH to continue to run a whites-only football program. The last hold out against integration.

Jesus Christ, what do you expect for evidence? Bryant holding up a receipt for a black slave he bought?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #147
148. No there are article accusing him of it that are conclusionary..I deal
with evidence every day of my life and NOTHING you have linked to rises to the level of EVIDENCE OF RACISM...as I posted to RC if there IS evidence of racism, I would be the last person to defend him, but you use the very poor debate tactic of accusing everyone who disagrees with you of racism.

How you get away with it I will never know.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #148
149. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #149
150. where did i criticize black culture? Get a fucking grip
Edited on Thu May-06-04 06:59 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #150
151. In post #95. Running from your own words, eh?
Edited on Thu May-06-04 07:08 PM by mouse7
You said ..."so twisted that you claim it is legitimate to use the word bitch since rap music uses it but not the N word"

You attacked rap music and N-word taboos (and broke DU rules in bringing prior flame war into current threads) in one sentence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #151
154. There's no such rule..got a link?
and no...I called you inconsistent..I did not criticize black culture..what a crock of shit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #154
158. Here's the rules...
"...Do not "stalk" another member from one discussion thread to another. Do not follow someone into another thread to try to continue a disagreement you had elsewhere. Do not talk negatively about an individual in a thread where they are not participating. Do not start a new discussion thread with the purpose of "calling out" another member or picking a fight with another member. Do not use your signature line to draw negative attention to another member of the board...."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

I don't expect a culturally insensitive person will recognize when they are being culturally insensitive. It kinda works that way. That's the problem. Everyone else can see how it's a criticism of black culture to complain about blacks being "allowed" to say the n-word in rap music and other groups not being allowed to use the n-word.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #158
160. How obtuse of you...I am not stalking you...I responded to you
Edited on Thu May-06-04 07:44 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
and your attacks on others. I am not continuing a flame war, I am saying you are inconsistent on issues of equality and using your own prior words to demonstrate so.

Nice chickenshit way of trying to dodge that fact.

as far as cultural insensitivity..you are a culture unto yourself...even black DU'ers rarely show up aiding you in your defense since you are so blatantly inconsistent.

My arguments with you have nothing to do with race or otherwise..they have only to do with a paucity of sound logic.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #160
161. Why don't you ask Skinner?
Edited on Thu May-06-04 08:01 PM by mouse7
Let's see how Skinner feels about you dragging the "b-word" flame war back up again on this thread.

Go hit the "Ask the administrator" forum and see what he says.

And by the way, I'm learning a lot of very disappointing things about you tonight. You are not the person I thought you were. That's very sad.

(on edit: What a surprise. No questions about this on the Ask the Administrators board. nothingshocksmeanymore knows exactly what Skinner would say about dragging the "b-word" flame war out of the past and back on this thread.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #161
162. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #162
163. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #146
152. If you have the power to prevent a lynching and you stand by and
watch...are you a racist? If you have the power to end racist policy's as far as the makeup of your team and you do not....are you a racist? If you have the power to stop a terrorist attack and you stand by and do nothing....are you complicit?

RC
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #152
159. Wait a minute
Did he watch a lynching and not prevent it? Is there a link on this thread to that effect? (I am not challenging, I am admitting there are too many posts to ferret through all of it...if there is the only thing I MIGHT question is if his own life might have been endangered to stop it...I am not being an apologist merely stating being a chicken doesn't rise to the level of racism.

He did end racist policies as for as his teams go..he may not have done it soon enough for some but he did.

Again, if one does not act soon enough, that may rise to the level of chicken but not to the level of racist. If he did intentionally keep black players off of his team in order to make a statement, then I would agree he is a racist.

All I am asking for is demonstrable proof that that is what was so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #159
164. Speaking of inconsistancy
Edited on Thu May-06-04 08:25 PM by mouse7
Bear Bryant being the last major college football coach in the country to run a whites-only football program supposedly doesn't meet the standard of being racist, but the mere utterance of the b-word on a DU thread makes one both sexist and a myogynist.

I think you need some standard adjustments, nsma.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #24
49. he integrated at least Kentucky, Texas AM, Maryland, Alabama
He would have whupped Wallace alright.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. I know he didn't integrate Kentucky athletics, so...
An integrated Univerity of Texas-El Paso with 5 black starting players defeated the white only Kentucky Wildcats basketball team in the 1966 NCAA Basketball Championship. Since Bryant coached Football from 46-53 at Kentucky, I think it's safe to assume the Kentucky football team wasn't integrated 13 years before a basketball game with a still white only Kentucky team.

Here's the link to the book about that game
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/068483551...

He sure as hell didn't intergrate University of Maryland in his only year there in 1945 either.

Therefore, simce half of this is lying shit, it safe to assume all of it is lying shit and you are (at best) making it up to make your hero look good.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kcwayne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #51
116. I remember that game well
I didn't see it, but I remember the hype coming prior to the game. I was listening to the racists I lived around (in Central Illinois) talk about how Kentucky was going to kick black ass. And when Texas Western won, there was all this head scratching, excuse making, and denigration of those great Texas players that revolutionized game strategy with behind the back dribbling and great athleticism. Of course the racists couldn't deal with it, calling the players bananna boys and jungle boogies.

Don Haskins (the coach) was a great guy, and hearing about him sticking it up Adolph's craw was a great triumph.

As a footnote, one of the members of that Kentucky team is hall of famer Pat Riley.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #51
143. I'm A Cali Transplant in the South
My boss grew up in Alabama during all the crazy civil rights marches, etc during the 60s. He told me a story about how when he was a teenager he worked in a little roadside cafe. One summer day a black family on their way further south to Florida and the beach stops in for food. The entire place goes quiet, but he doesn't notice. He takes their order and hands the ticket back to the cook. When their food is done, the woman who's his boss takes the buns off of their burgers and unscrews the top of a salt shaker and poured salt all over them. Not knowing what the hell to do, he takes them the food. He is a major league dem because of the hate and intolerance he witnessed, including his own parents and family. Experiences like that shaped his life, and he knows the repugs are the wink and nod racist party. He also is a big Auburn fan, I don't know if Bear is UAB or Auburn and don't care. What the hell does it have to do with us in the here and now. Your posts are uncalled for and antagonizing our fellow DUers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #143
144. Would you ignore a "burning cross" icon?
Edited on Thu May-06-04 04:32 PM by mouse7
I doubt it.

Same thing. They both represent the white-only paradigm of the South.

You said yourself you're no from the South, and don't recognize much of the background involved. I am from the South, and lived there most of my life. I do recognize the symbols representing Southern white dominance becasue I lived it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
169. I remember those years very clearly
Thank you for a clear picture of history with Bear Bryant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
118. Bear Bryant was a vicious redneck racist prick
And if you want people to respect "southern liberals" perhaps you should educate yourself a bit on your heroes...I can't respect people who are proudly ignorant....and frankly..no I don't need or want their help or support.

Keep your racist flag as well. Funny how folks like you preach tolerance of Southerners and hold as heroes those who actively sought to subjugate and marginalize well over half the population of the South.

RC
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #118
165. Where did you get this nugget of knowledge?
I've personally met many of Bryant's players, black and white, and an Asian guy too. And to a man, they have had nothing but good words and love for the man. Personally, I trust them.

The tone and content of your post demonstrate perfectly what I was complaining about in my original post. I'm glad you represent only a hateful subset of the DU membership.

(And I don't have a racist flag, whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #165
168. What I see is you don't care about the reaction Bear Bryant causes
Edited on Thu May-06-04 08:40 PM by mouse7
Bear Bryant ran the last major college whites only college football program. That fact doesn't concern you whatsoever. People are going to deal with your open display of symbols of Southern White dominance and racism, and screw them if they don't like it.

What I see is a complete insensitivity on your part to the feelings of those Bryant kept off his team for decades. As was pointed out, Oklahoma integrated in 1955.

And you've lost all standing in the discussion after your lies about Bryant desegregating Kentucky and Maryland athletic programs anyway. You openly and poorly lied already in this thread. I think you're lying about all these Bryant player you supposedly know, too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #168
171. I didn't lie
If I was wrong, I was just wrong.

And I didn't say I *know* those players. I did say I *met* them. Which isn't that surprising, as I live in Tuscaloosa, where the University of Alabama is located. One was even a student coach at my junior high school. I saw him everyday. And Sylvester Croom Sr., whose son was an All-American at Alabama in the '70s and is now head coach at Mississippi State, was a teacher at the school. He loved Coach Bryant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #171
172. Well Shit, I know Jim Harbaugh and Jamie Morris THAT well
I was running a dunk tank at a big MDA carnival in Ann Arbor and Jim Harbaugh, Jamie Morris, and a couple of the other Wolverine players came down to be dunk tank "victims" and we were raising money all afternoon.

They had nothing to say but good things anout Michigan. Big surprise. They aren't going to confide in someone they run into occasionally, or are with for a part of a day like I was with them
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #171
188. I Was Thinking About Reverend Croom
Edited on Fri May-07-04 01:46 AM by syrinx9999
(The coach's Dad.) He's gone now, but he was a teacher at my junior high. I only had him for study hall, but I think he taught social studies, or civics, or government, or whatever they called it. He was a huge man. Tall and fairly round. And the deepest voice you ever heard. I mean he put James Earl Jones in dark shade. wpf. It wasn't a huge school, but still, you could hear him hollering all the way across the school, through a bunch of doors. He was, maybe, my favorite teacher that never (formally) taught me. He did teach me a few things though.

Oh yeah: Everyone wanted to be in his class, because he had an air conditioner. Back then, it was windows only. ;) He bought the air conditioner himself, and plugged it in!)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #168
173. here's a little quote for you
Edited on Thu May-06-04 09:00 PM by syrinx9999
There was a little controversey at UA. When Sylvester Croom was hired as the Mississippi State head coach, Alabama coach Mike Shula renamed the Sylvester Croom Committment to Excellence Award, since Mississippi State is one of our big rivals. (It's since been changed back.) Anyway, this is what Sylvester Croom, who is black, said:

``I'm thoroughly disappointed that they chose to remove my name from an award that meant a lot to me because of the career I had at Alabama as a player,'' Croom said. ``To remove my name from that award because I achieved success in my coaching career is disappointing to me.

``I find it hard to believe that coach (Bear) Bryant would have ever done something like that.''

The article goes on:

To the contrary, if Bryant had been around last year, Croom might be Alabama's head coach.

-----------------
http://louisianastate.theinsiders.com/2/249620.html
The link is from an LSU site, just because that's the first place I found the article.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #173
174. Croom was disappointed and had wanted his name on the award
What WOULD he say, that Bryant would agree?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #174
175. If I were a black man, and I thought Bryant was a racist
I sure as hell wouldn't go around singing his praises all the time. Would you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #175
176. You would if you wanted a Univ. Alabama award named after you
He obviously liked having the award named for him.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #176
179. But I think Coach Croom is a man of integrity
I don't think he would cover up for a racist, just to have an award named for him. Why are you questioning a black man's integrity without reason?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #179
183. It's not questioning integrity to say he liked to have award named for him
Maybe he saw that award as what justified all the struggles he faced at Alabama?

We certainly can't tell from this cryptic stuff.

You are really reaching to try to cover Bear's butt. There is nothing in this stuff that would suggest any clue to the conclusions you're attempting to stretch out of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #183
185. It's questioning his integrity to say he would lie to get the award
I'm merely defending Coach Bryant against your unfounded charges.

As you know, it's impossible to prove a negative. So the onus is on you to prove your allegations of racism.

For your pleasure, here is a quote from Alabama star receiver and NFL Hall Of Fame member Ozzie Newsome (who is black):

"I can't imagine being in the Hall of Fame with Coach Bryant. There ought to be two Hall of Fames, one for Coach Bryant and one for everybody else."

Ozzie Newsome, upon his induction to the Alabama Hall of Fame.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. Wrong!
Edited on Thu May-06-04 01:53 AM by Elwood P Dowd
Bear Bryant and Shug Jordan both wanted black players, but George Wallace and the political climate at the time would have made it impossible. Shug Jordan of Auburn signed the first black player, James Owens, in December of 1968. Bryant signed a running back named Jackson and a defensive end named Mitchell the next year. Both coaches took their share of flack from many in this state.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. Read post #24... David Halberstam has all the details. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. His dates are wrong.
The integration process started in December of 1968 and 1969 for football players at Auburn and Alabama. I was there!!!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Pardon me if I take ESPN and David Halberstam's word over yours
Edited on Thu May-06-04 02:12 AM by mouse7
You're just some guy named Elwood on the internet.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. I worked for Auburn University then.
I will bet you any amount of money. I don't give a shit who this guy is,
I was there. Look it up. Auburn signed James Owens to a football scholarship in December of 1968. The next December, Alabama signed Jackson and Mithcell.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. David Halberstam has won the Pulitzer Prize. More than once.
The article was posted to the ESPN website as a semi-review of that movie they made about Bryant at Texas A&M.

While it's possible that Halberstam and ESPN could be wrong in an article/review about a movie ESPN pushed frenetically, it's not real likely. Generic guys on the internet with no supporting evidence are wrong all the time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. I'm not talking about A&M.
I'm talking about what happened in Alabama when I worked there in the late 1960s. It won't be the first time ESPN has been wrong. I may be old, and I may be crazy, but I have the facts on this particular subject.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Article isn't about just A&M. It's about Bear Bryant's career.
Evidentally, you have some reading comprehension issues, because the part I cut and pasted from the article is CLEARLY about University of Alabama football.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. No, you have the issues.
You are the one who said above that Bryant didn't sign any black players until 1973 (another article said 1971). I just answered your post. I am right, and your are wrong. Live with it!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #42
46. No links, no evidence, and no Black athlete on UA team pre-USC
Edited on Thu May-06-04 02:55 AM by mouse7
At most, yproved nothing but the fact you could name a black athlete Bryant allowed on his team the year after the white only Crimson Tide got slaughtered by an integrated USC team and the necessity of intregration to stay competitive was forced on Bryant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. Here is one
Back in 1969 players were signed in December. Their first year would be the the season of 1970. Wilbur Jackson was a freshman on the 1970 team.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/sec/200...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. Bullshit...it says Jackson ACCEPTED scholarship in 1970
Edited on Thu May-06-04 03:11 AM by mouse7
"...Croom, 48, born and raised in Tuscaloosa and the son of an influential minister, arrived on campus in 1971, a year after Wilbur Jackson became the first black football player to accept a scholarship to Alabama. Croom became an All-America center, helped the Tide win the 1973 national title, earned two degrees and then coached linebackers at Alabama for 10 years under Bryant and Ray Perkins. He has spent the last 17 years in the NFL as an assistant...."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/sec/200...

Jackson was offered the first scholarship AFTER Alabama got crushed by Sam Cunningham and USC.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. You know nothing about football scholarships.
Jackson signed a Grant in December of 1969. It was accepted when he reported in September of 1970. That's the way it worked.

Today, they sign Grants in February. Now go to bed little boy. You don't know what you're talking about.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. So now Halberstam, ESPN, USA Today all wrong and you're right?
Edited on Thu May-06-04 03:52 AM by mouse7
It's your link and your evidence, and it said they offered him the scholarship in 1970. You say they were offered in the month December. That's exactly what I said. He was offered the scholarship in December 1970 after Alabama got it's ass handed to it by Sam Cunningham and USC.

ESPN, USA Today, and David Halberstam are all in agreement.... with me.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. Nope
He signed an SEC Grant in December of 1969 after his senior season at Ozark High School. In September of 1970 he reported for practice. He played on the freshman team in 1970 (NCAA rules) and then lettered in 1971,1972, and 1973 for the varsity.

Freshmen were not allowed to play on varsity teams until 1973. As usual, you don't know what you're talking about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Everybody is wrong but guy with no evidence, right?
Edited on Thu May-06-04 04:45 AM by mouse7
ESPN, David Halberstam, and the USA Today article you provided say I'm right and you're wrong.

There's guys on the alien abduction websites that have very detailed interesting stories to tell, too. They have the same amount of evidence you do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. Also
Different conferences had different signing dates. It was December for the SEC. Some conferences awarded Grants in January back then, so the SEC teams had to sweat out certain signees. Kentucky and Florida had the most problems the years I was involved.

Later, the NCAA mandated a universal signing date. It is now the first Wednesday in February.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Everybody is wrong but the guy with no evidence, right?
Edited on Thu May-06-04 04:46 AM by mouse7
ESPN, David Halberstam, and the USA Today article you provided say I'm right and you're wrong.

Also, there's lots of very detailed stories about bigfoot on the internet. Very interesting to listen to. No evidence on those either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #57
62. Do you understand logic?
Jackson lettered at Alabama from 1971 to 1973. Freshmen were not allowed to play varsity football until 1973. The only way he could have lettered from 1971 to 1973 was to have been signed prior to the 1970 season and then play freshman ball during the 1970 season.

The ESPN reporters have it wrong - pure and simple. I went to Auburn, not Alabama, so I don't care about those people. However, when it comes to the facts, you are wrong. ESPN is wrong. Bama integrated in 1970
prior to the USC game. The man's name was Wilbur Jackson.

There are no links to the rosters of Alabama's 1970 freshmen class.

John Mitchell was signed as JUCO after the 1970 season.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #64
68. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. USA Today said he was offered scholarship in 1970 n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #70
76. NY Times
But in September 1970, Cunningham was a 20-year-old sophomore playing his first college football game, against Alabama at Legion Field in Birmingham. He was unaware of racial epithets in the stands, the segregation, unaware that Wilbur Jackson, a running back for Alabama and an African-American was in the stands that day.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/07/sports/07RHOD.html?ex...

Busey stars as Paul "Bear" Bryant in this reverential biography of the colorful Alabama college football coach, faithfully portraying him over a 50-year span, from his playing days with the Crimson Tide until his death in 1983. The film's chief fault is that it presents the Bear's life story without drama or conflict, so the only reason to watch this if you're not a Bryant devotee (a moot question in Alabama) is Busey's outstanding performance. Busey had already proven his ability to become a character as the lead in THE BUDDY HOLLY STORY (1978), and he went on to play another legendary sports figure, Joe DiMaggio, in INSIGNIFICANCE (1985). Making an appearance in THE BEAR is former Detroit Lions quarterback Hipple, who plays Illini quarterback Tony Eason in Alabama's thrilling 1982 Liberty Bowl victory.
http://www.tvguide.com/movies/database/showmovie.asp?MI...

I think OP's question has been answered.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. Wilbur was in the stands alright.
Freshman football players sat in the stands in 1970. They were not allowed to play with the varsity until 1973.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #77
80. *I* believe you ..
Edited on Thu May-06-04 06:45 AM by drfemoe
... I think I saw that Bear Bryant movie .. Still wouldn't know him if he walked up and started talking to me .. much less on some MB Avatar!!

It's a shame .. regional prejudices of 2004 are SO much more PC than the racial strife of the 60s and 70s.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. Yea... in the stands
Edited on Thu May-06-04 06:17 AM by mouse7
Was Jackson on the field? Nope.

No black athlete took the field for Alabama until after it was clear the couldn't compete without them. Bryant was the last major college holdout against integration.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #78
82. Freshmen couldn't play varsity ..
it says he was "a running back for Alabama". That would be on the B String - Freshmen. He went to 49ers in '74.
1970-1971-1972-1973
1974 - pro
EOM
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. Did he dress for a varsity game in 1970? No. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #84
86. How many times does someone have to tell you
freshmen were not allowed to play varsity ball until 1973. They had freaking freshmen teams back then. You could not play varsity ball until you were a sophmore. In Wilbur Jackson's case, that was 1971.

He signed with Alabama in December of 1969. He reported to campus for fall practice in September of 1970. He played on the freshman team in 1970.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. USA Today said Jackson accpted scholarship in 1970
Ooops. facts are such a pain when you're on a good rant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. Read the SF 49ers post above
Played at Bama 1970 to 1973. Turned pro in 1974.

I saw him play in high school for Ozark, and I saw him play at Bama for four years - 1970 freshman team and 1971-1973 varsity. Make up all the stories you want.

Later
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. Yes, that article said he was in the stands
He didn't play for Bryant till '71.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #88
91. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RummyTheDummy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #57
111. You want to talk about integration, look no further than Barry Switzer
Edited on Thu May-06-04 01:28 PM by RummyTheDummy
And unlike Bryant who eventually gave in to recruiting black athletes because he felt it would help him win, Switzer valued them as people. He continues to be an absolutely beloved figure among black Oklahomans to this day. Switzer is also a big time Dem and donates lots of money to Dem canidates in Oklahoma.

I'd also like to note that Oklahoma recruited its first black player under Bud Wilkinson -- in the mid 50's. Prentice Gautt is now an associate commissioner with the Big 12 conference.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. So has Thomas Friedman.
That doesn't make him right.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Show me a Thomas Friedman article on the ESPN website.
Halberstam has writren award winning sports articles and books along side his news writing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. That is not the point.
And I am fully aware of Mr. Halberstam's credentials. However, Mr. Dowd has clearly demonstrated that not only was he present during said period, he witnessed everything you claim didn't happen. When offered a primary source or a secondary source, I take the primary source, and this gentleman seems to know that which he addresses.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Mr. Halberstam was also present there
David Halberstam covered the south quite often as a journalist in the 60's and 70's.

Lots of people claim lots of things on the net. I see no links to anything. I hear some claims, but even the claims show no Black Athlete was allowed onto the football team Bryant coached until after Sam Cunningham and USC slaughtered Bryant's white only Alabama football team.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. Finally found my old media stuff.
Auburn signed Owens in December of 1968. He played on the freshman team in 1969 (freshmen could not play varsity then) and lettered 1970 to 1972.

Alabama signed Wilbur Jackson in December of 1969. He played on the freshman team in 1970 and lettered at Alabama from 1971 to 1973. He was an All-SEC selection and went on to the NFL.

John Mitchell was actually signed in 1970 (so I was wrong on him). He lettered in 1971 and 1972. He was also All-SEC. John is now coaching in the NFL.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #32
41. Find an internet link that shows it.
Edited on Thu May-06-04 03:01 AM by mouse7
Lots of people on the internet claim lots of facts are true.

A lot of people can claim lots of things about signings, the fact is, even you admit no Black athlete played for Alabama until the integrated USC football team dominated the white only Alabama team, and staying competitive forced Alabama to integrate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #26
58. I knew Bear Bryant personally
and you couldn't be more wrong. Your comments show true lack of understanding of who Paul Bryant was and a greater lack of understanding of the atmosphere at the University in the 60's and early 70's.

theProdigal
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. Then you should have told him in to early 60's to recruit Blacks
Edited on Thu May-06-04 04:58 AM by mouse7
If you knew him in the early 60's, you should have told him to recruit Black athletes to his football team if he didn't want to look like a racist. If being seen as a racist would have bothered him, he would have had black athletes on his team before it was forced on him in order to stay competitive.

I'm from the South, and I know all about those years. People who weren't racist found ways to integrate. People who were racists found excuses not to integrate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. Bryant didn't care a lot about what people thought of him...
that is true. His goal in life was to win football games...and along the way he helped a hell of a lot of players become better men. Yeah, he screwed up a few too, but the vast proportion he helped.

The atmosphere at the University and in the south in general did not lend to recruiting blacks at any in the 60's and in fact was fought over well into the 70's. Bear saw many black athletes that he would have loved to have recruited and gotten to his team...the region was FULL of talent that he lamented not being able to obtain.

You can say that the University had racists policies that prevented the recruiting of black athletes...that would be very true. You could say that the vast majority of athletic support for the University had no desire to see blacks in college or on their precious football team. But to say that Paul Bryant was a racist is sadly uninformed and quite rude. I'm sorry you didn't know the man...you certainly would not have this opinion of him.

theProdigal
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. What I see is Alabama people covering for their Football Diety...
...just like freepers cover for Dumbya.

The excuses being made for Bear Bryant on this board tonight are as ludicrous and extreme as the excuses made for Dumbya in freeperland. People are telling complete lies. They are exaggerating. They are making ridiculous stretches based on no supporting evidence whatsoever.

Bear Bryant was one of the last major college football coaches to continue to lead an all-white program, and he continued running an all-white program until it became impossible for him to continue to compete. Such values are never going to be celebrated by a community of progressives.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. you know nothing of the man
Edited on Thu May-06-04 05:33 AM by ProdigalJunkMail
you can call it what you will. I find it laughable that you claim to be such an expert on the motives of a person that you never laid eyes on outside of a newspaper or television. I also find it funny that you are calling me and Elwood liars just because we claim to have first hand knowledge. Did you ever sit with the man? Did you ever have a dinner conversation with him? Did you ever watch him allow a player back onto the team after getting headstrong and leaving? I doubt you did any of those things, but I did. All of them and more. He was a friend. He was a man who, like football coaches today, was more controlled by the football than he controlled it.

You want to walk a mile in his shoes before you go throwing about terms like 'racist'. You sir, show a small mind and a continuing lack of understanding. Undermining the character of a dead man whom you have never met and couldn't have the first clue about his motivations is indicative of someone with a closed mind. You form your opinion from what you've read...I form mine from what I have lived.

Now, take your opinion of the man you never knew and blow it out your ass.

theProdigal
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #63
96. Bryant was the last major college football coach to integrate
People who were the last to integrate in their endeavor weren't found to be heroes to diversity. It's in Alabama's interest to hide the racist truth about Bryant. Bryant used the lily white atmosphere of Alabama sports as a successful recruiting too for years, and only stopped when it stopped putting wins on the scoreboard. Alabama won in that period because racist football players around the country who were avoiding integration at other colleges around the country went to Alabama because Alabama football was still lily white.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #96
104. so now, not only was Bryant a racist...
but so was my father who played for him? Asshat...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. You hang out with Wallace and Bryant...
Edited on Thu May-06-04 12:40 PM by mouse7
...you get painted white with the same brush, too. I don't know your Dad. I never said every football player to play for Alabama during that time was a racist. He was willing to tolerate being surrounded by racists, though. That's unfortunate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #105
108. oh yeah...let's go the association route
my father...white guy
my mother and his wife to this day...black woman
my father's father...white guy
my father's mother...cherokee indian
my father's father's father...walked hand in hand across the edmund pettus bridge in selma because he was so racist

oh yeah...racism is rampant in my family...

Paul Bryant was no more a racist than my father and probably no more than anyone you know. Bryant's team was a reflection of the times in AL, not of his heart.

Once again...you speak of what you do not know and act as if it were fact. Since you are completely unwilling to acknowledge that you can do nothing more than speculate about the motives of one Paul Bryant and in turn my father and the rest of the 'racists' that played for UA I will gladly bid you good day.

theProdigal
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. Gee, shouldn't be hard to post a picture...
...of your dad, your mom, you, and Bear Bryant then.

If you've got links to evidence of the Bear Bryant you claim existed, please share. I'm very open minded. I allow the evidence to do the talking. The evidence shows that Bryant was the last major college football coach to integrate. The evidence also show that Bear Bryant was considered to walk on water in Alabama, and if Bear Bryant demanded black athletes be allowed on his team, it would have happened immediately. Bear Bryant had more power to act in Alabama that Wallace did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #110
112. ... and the horse you rode in on...
Edited on Thu May-06-04 01:32 PM by ProdigalJunkMail
take your 'evidence' and just shove it. I could post a picture of Bryant and my mom and dad in a three-way and you would still say that it wasn't true. Apparently it is easier for you to call someone a liar about their past associations than it is to accept the fact that you are wrong. You take two first hand reflections...call them both false and fabricated...and bitch and moan about internet links to the personal life of a person who died 20 years ago who you admit never having a conversation with, let alone meeting...and all you can do is call him a racist...what a dipshit.

You know...I have never used it...but I think I have found a reason...

<ignore>

theProdigal
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. That's what I thought you'd say.
Nobody accepts anything as fact at DU without links/evidence backing their statements. You know that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #61
66. You are the one
causing the problem. Your facts are wrong, and some of us are just trying to correct them.

I'm not defending Bryant. Hell, I attended a school he absolutely hated!
Just get your facts straight.

I knew Coach Jordan, and I met Coach Bryant on a few occasions. If either had signed black players in the early 1960s, they would have been fired and blackballed from coaching in the south. Rome wasn't built in a day my friend. Progress takes time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. I am the one with EVIDENCE.
You are tho one who has no evidence except a piece which you tried to lie about which if you read the text supported everything I said.

You are lying. Liars with no evidence are the one that cause the problems. Not people that have multiple pieces of evidence to support every thing they said.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. You are twisting the facts
You first have to play freshman ball (1970) before you can play varsity ball (1971). Are you still too stupid to understand the rules of that day? How many times do I have to repeat them to your littl brain?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. I am quoting facts from evidence
You are making shit up as you go along. You have no evidence to support you, and I have caught you lying about what was in the text of articles.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #72
75. Articles published decades after the fact
ARE NOT EVIDENCE.

Wilbur Jackson signed a Grant in December of 1969. He reported for practice in September of 1970. That's just the way it was.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #75
85. Elwood says his own article suddenly isn't evidence
Edited on Thu May-06-04 06:24 AM by mouse7
He sure thought the USA Today article was evidence when posted it when he thought it supported what he said. Now he's whining about the evidence he provided himself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #72
79. I would also like to know
who that black running back was for Alabama that played against our freshman team in 1970? His name was Jackson. Does anybody know his first name? Maybe mouse7? I saw him play against us for four years - once on the freshman team and three on the varsity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #72
124. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
122. btw
"In 1968, black athletes threatened to protest all athletic events at the University of Washington. The football players, accused the head coach Jim Owens, of blatant discrimination. In the same year, Wayne Vandenburg, the coach of the University of Texas, El Paso, dismissed nine track and field athletes from his team for protesting the Mormon Churches' treatment of blacks. Moreover, in 1969 Coach Lloyd Eaton dismissed fourteen football players from his team because they wanted to protest and draw attention to the Mormon Churches' policies regarding blacks. Fourteen black football players were thrown off the team at Indiana University for missing practice two consecutive days in protest. Black athletes were involved in rebellions at Syracuse University, Oregon State University, Michigan State University, San Francisco State University, University of California at Berkeley among other schools. At no other time in American sport history have black athletes publicly identified with the struggle and outwardly challenged the system."

Journal of African American Men volume 4, number 3, Spring, 1999
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #122
137. btw what?
Edited on Thu May-06-04 04:19 PM by mouse7
What does protests about Mormon Church policies regarding Blacks have to do with anything?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
8. Hang in there
we all have our stereotypes that others use to tar and feather us with.

Personally I love southern liberals, and every other liberal... just have my problems with zig zag Miller...

But I also have similar problems with that paragon of norhtern liberalism (guffaws) Joe Lieberman

So hang in there, and don't let this get to you
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Christ was Socialist Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. The words
joe liberman and liberalism should be seperated by 5 different posts at least LOL
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. yeah I hate Ziggy too...
So maybe we can be friends. ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rocinante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
11. Seems like it doesn't it?
I finally got tired arguing with people here about it.

I've traveled through much of the country and every region has its oddities, so to speak. But it's still one country and some just don't seem to get it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. I know
There are idiots, I bet, in Spokane Washington. But I don't hate everyone from Spokane.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Michael Costello Donating Member (179 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
129. Divide and conquer
I am from New York City and I try to be conscious of false prejudices I have against groups like southerners (as if all southerners are of one mindset anyway).

When I look at the south, I mostly look at it in economic terms in comparison to the rest of the country. I also look at it's internal economic differences - the economic situation in the "black belt"; the economic situations in places like Atlanta, Research Triangle Park, Huntsville, and Austin; and the economic situation in other areas. These economic differences of course would translate to cultural differences as well. New Jersey in many ways is like a giant suburb of white collar workers from the hubs of New York City and Philadelphia. Alabama tends to have a lot of blue collar workers.

http://www.massinc.org/Commonwealth/new_map_exclusive/t...

Commonwealth puts all of New Jersey in the "Northeast Corridor" while Alabama is split up, on their map, between the Appalachian north, the lowlands south (much of which is the black belt), and "southern comfort" in the south of the state, which is part of the most Republican region in the country of 10 regions commonwealth points out.

Anyhow, this is an interesting map to look at. It's probably true that someone from Appalachia from the middle of Pennsylvania (or New York State) probably has more in common with someone from Northern Alabama than with someone from Philadelphia or New York City. Or that Miami probably has more in common with Los Angeles than Nashville. The point is that it shows that of the 5 regions that touch the South, only 2 are mostly exclusively southern (and even then extending into Missouri, Oklahoma, Maryland and Delaware).

But anyhow, I think a blue collar worker in the West or North or South has more in common with a blue collar worker in one of those other regions than that person would have with someone like Paris Hilton in their own region. I see this mud-slinging as just divide-and-conquer tactics. There does seem to be an anti-southern bias not just on DU to some extent but in many places. There is not a lot out there trying to counter it. The media tends to paint southerners as reactionary, racist and dumb.

I saw the documentary "Harlan County, USA" not long ago about a group of coal miners in southern Kentucky. They were trying to form a union, and had to go up to protest in New York on Wall Street to get them to try and stop screwing them. The workers in the movie were not racist, the blacks and whites got along. The guy trying to bust up the union was racist, but the workers in the movie weren't. As far as education, I doubt many of them had a formal college education as many of them could not even afford running water indoors in the 1970's. One woman said if they won the strike they could probably get running water. So this goes back to the economic thing. They were probably not formally educated, but they were smart enough to organize together and better themselves. It was really the bosses who were against them bettering themselves and being able to afford a formal education. One guy said the companies have the governments locked up to keep factories out of town so that people would have to work in the mines. Of course, these people were particularly bad off - the south has had economic growth and these people were bad off, although I'm sure North Carolina probably looks pretty bad nowadays with factories closing. But then again, so does Massachusetts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
13. No no no no no no no no no no no
Edited on Thu May-06-04 01:48 AM by WilliamPitt
no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.

www.aladems.org
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
44. if I pad *MY* piece
It can run on truthout. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
16. i want to take back the south
Edited on Thu May-06-04 01:52 AM by seabeyond
so thumbs up
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
18. I am going to Atlanta for memorial day
for a bridge party with a bunch of people I met online

I am sooooo grateful my host is a Southern Liberal and has promised not to let any of the Repubs pick on me. I am also looking forward to meeting an Alabama YellowDog Dem and a gal from VA

these southern dems make playing bridge (a bastion of republicans) a joy and keep me coming back on those days I feel that my anti war views are poison in my (2nd) favorite web community

We love you southern dems who stick with the liberal left

Hang in there and fight the good fight as I do here in Goldwater country
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
74. Welcome to Atlanta. Hope you enjoy your visit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bhunt70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #18
93. You'll have a good time in atlanta...great place.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vetwife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #93
99. Welcome and ya'll come back soon..Glad to have you !
Hope you bring a lot of liberals with ya !
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
doni_georgia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
131. Hope you enjoy your trip! Try not to get stuck in too much traffic!
I love Atlanta, our traffic just REALLY sucks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
21. red state liberals are the best IMO
I am one...

We have the liberal values, but we are less likely to buy into "academic" liberalism, PC type stuff...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
138. Speak for yourself. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #138
186. I speak for you as well
Watch me make your mouth move.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
22. No, but you guys could do a helluva lot for us by moving to swing states
Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia: these places are too far gone. We're never gonna have a chance there in a close election, not until the nation gets back on the progressive track and stays that way for a few decades.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
doni_georgia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
132. We'd be willing to move to Florida if they'd get rid of Jeb first!
But I'm just not willing to move ANYWHERE where it's cold. Sorry!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
doni_georgia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
133. We'd be willing to move to Florida if they'd get rid of Jeb first!
But I'm just not willing to move ANYWHERE where it's cold. Sorry!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
139. Why don't you start a job board for us?
And make sure the companies who post there provide relocation benefits.

Oh, and maybe you could start a trust fund so we can move our extended families as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
23. Boo-Fucking-Hoo
Cry me a river, kiddo. I personally love Southern liberals, and appeciate your contributions to the cause. I fail, however, to see your point. The fact that you're fighting the good fight in "enemy" territory is appreciated, and I'd never discourage that.

Nailing yourself to the figurative cross is tiresome, though. We're all doing what we can.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
25. We're all in this together my friend.
From a Nortern Mainiac....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Borgnine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
34. Sometimes I get the feeling myself.
Edited on Thu May-06-04 02:30 AM by Borgnine
I'm a northerner, but I've lived in Virginia for most of my life. I love the south. While there are the stereotypical redneck conservatives here, what most people who live in the north don't understand is that they're loathed here as well. Plus, as I travel between both north and south, I've discovered there are just as many "northern rednecks" living above the Mason-Dixon. The only difference is they don't drape themselves in the Confederate flag.

I get sick of the southern bashing here. I thought we liberals were supposed to have the tolerant ideology.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
35. This North/South antagonism has existed for a long time
Since before the Civil War, during it, and after it. We live in the waning shadow of regional discord, however. We are united by the common desire to pursue liberal policies and that should be our foremost identifier. Does regionalism exist on this board? One need look no further than posts in which Northerners defame the South or posts in which a group of Southerners tries to argue that the Confederate flag is a part of their heritage. Does regionalism pervade this board? No. As a Southerner (and a Southerner from the most maligned state) I do not feel that the conflict between North and South is unbearable. It is what it is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:14 AM
Response to Original message
53. "...self-annointed liberal saints..."
- Maybe it's your attitude? It seems you have joined the 'conservative left' in stereotyping liberals as the enemy. Guess what? Liberals are also 'sick of this shit'.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Direckshun Donating Member (303 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:42 AM
Response to Original message
67. Who here wants Southern liberals to leave?
Who's said it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:15 AM
Response to Original message
81. I'm from the south..............
and southerner bashing doesn't bother me one iota. Maybe you're a little thin skinned, or maybe I'm a little thick skinned. People have inherent sterotypes, ALL people, yourself included if you can be totally honest with yourself. Don't let it get you down. Read past the slurs and remember that we're here to serve the common good.
In some ways we deserve a few of the slurs, in some ways we don't. Don't dwell on it, keep the BIG picture in mind and remember that the best way to change the stereotypes is to live and act well.
Stay on board the Liberal train 'bro, the alternative is not all that attractive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vetwife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #81
98. I am Amanda Vetwife and I hail from Ga.
I fight every r-winged repug I see. I think I made Katherine Harris look stupid on CNN and I put out my Take it Back CD for the dems. I don't think DU'ers want us to go away. I think many don't know some of our accomplishments. Listen to Guy James. He knows who we are ....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:19 AM
Response to Original message
83. The GOPers will use EVERY wedge thay can to divide us!
Wake up GODDAMN IT! Bush is the problem! Lets beat these war pigs and then worry about the little SHIT! I live in WV the most talked down state in the union/non-union and I know about hurt feelings, believe me! Why worry about the spotted owl when the entire planet is endangered by these idiots? The spotted owl has a Chance under John Kerry's stewardship and no chance at all under G W Bush! Freedom and liberty are also on the verge of extinction! Let's Stop this Killing in IRAQ! (((EVERY))) VOTE IS IMPORTANT!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #83
155. I've thought about this all evening and yes I believe they do!
Want us to get lost! So call it a flip flop if you want RE: the post above but I've changed my mind!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
90. I'm not certain what happened
to upset you, but I believe anyone who hates people solely because of the region they come from is totally ignorant. Like any large group we have our share of assholes, many have said nasty things about gays and would like them to shut up and get to the back of the bus (but don't forget to vote). Also don't get me started on the abuse vegetarians and those who care about the welfare of animals receive on a regular basis around here. I'm still here though and I'm NOT going anywhere. If a poster is over the line blast em, ignore them, or do an alert on them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
92. You can't be a wimp & live in Texas....
& that statement should stand for the whole south. (Not that all of Texas is The South.)

Fight what's wrong about the South & enjoy what's good about it.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
94. Don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Did-didn't-did-didn't about an avatar.

Alabama born and bred.
Took me a while, but I finally learned not to rise to the bait here.
Now I devote my energies to trying to make a diference.

Helping to organize a local Democratic club and bring back the two-party system to a county that's been overwhelmingly repug for far too long.

Just attended a seminar on voter registration. Anyone can do it!

It's a slow process, but you gotta start somewhere. I'm working my way through a list of registered voters in my precinct. Finding the Democrats and getting them to turn out.

We may not win an office in November, but we WILL by-god have some candidates on the ballot. And more the next time, and more after that.

In the words of Winston Churchill: "Never, never, NEVER give up!"
Go forth and do ye likewise.
Oh...Roll Tide.
;-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
97. Don't blame us for blaming y'all
South bashing is directed at "y'all" - but not "all y'all". We don't mean you personally, we mean the mean Southern states. We mean Jeb & Katherine Harris and the people who voted out Max Clelland and the Tennesseeans who didn't support Gore and the Strom Thurmondites and the not-so-closeted David Duke racists, the Bob Jonesian televangelists and the tough-talking Texas oil jockeys. Lotsa reasons to hate the South - as wonderful as it can be down there, it's a puzzling contridiction that really does read like a Flannery O'Connor novella.

I lived in the South and it has never been a point of pride for me. Of course we ALL like Southern liberals. the Southern bashing is not directed at the liberals. As frustrated as we feel about the Republican-dominated Southern states, no doubt the Southern liberal feels ten times more frustrated and fights 10 times harder every day. I feel for you. I HAD to get out of there to keep my sanity & I don't know how others can stand it. You have my respect.

On a side note: The North/South resentment works both ways, BTW: I heard Jeneane Garafalo the other night bellyaching on how Kerry can shed his Ivy League elitist image - not mentioning the fact that whistleass is also a Yalie, as if she forgot all about it. Why does Kerry unquestionably bear the brunt of the Northeastern elitist criticism & Bush doesn't? They're both Yalies, but Bush claims to be from Texas so the real heart of the Kerry criticism is a) he's from the North and b) he's a Democrat. The *elitist* crap is coming from where? Is it a code-word for "Liberal" or "New Englander"? I would suggest that the image is usually associated with New Englanders & it comes from the South. The rivalry has been around for ages.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
100. Clark supporter here - the one self-declared liberal also Southern

"I am a liberal. We live in a liberal democracy... This country was founded on the principals of
the Enlightenment.
-- Wes Clark
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
101. You're right to be offended.
Southerners and rural people are often lumped in with the right-wing.

Stay and fight along side us. We'll reprimand every "coastal" democrat who tries to take us for granted.

When they know better, they'll do better.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SayitAintSo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
102. I'm from the South and I have your same thoughts at times...
Don't have time for a lengthy response but what comes to mind is that those that bash the south categorically, are no different in their ideological ignorance than those that bash liberals on the extreme right. We have extremist on both sides that hurt the cause both inside and out. You just have to learn to recognize them and let it roll off your back ... you can't change them... and if you could it would hardly be worth the effort.


But that's just me ...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
103. hell NO we love you southern liberals....i love southern liberals
I LOVE ALL LIBERALS ESPECIALLY FROM ALABAMA! :loveya:

i'm sorry you feel that way and you are not a minority here :grouphug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
106. Nah, I'm still here
and Ah ain't goin' nowhere! So there. ;-)

I'm a veteran of south bashing threads from the earlier days. Now I hardly bother with them. It's not worth sacrificing my sanity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
107. I don't think any genuine liberals would do that.
We want to bring the south back to its Democratic roots and away from the RW religious fundamentalists who have poisoned your political waters and it's you guys who will be at the front lines of this war on democracy in the south.

:loveya:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
109. I live in the south.
And have made no secret of it. It is even in my profile, and I've mentioned it numerous times. No one has ever said I don't belong here or that I'm not wanted. I've never been told to get lost.

There are people at DU who like to paint with a broad brush many groups. That's just life. You're going to find that wherever you go. I do not think liberals want to kick out the south. That is just ridiculous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SheepyMcSheepster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
113. born and raised in NC
Edited on Thu May-06-04 01:49 PM by SheepyMcSheepster
and yes some people do bash the south, but i don't find it to be directed towards me, just those around me who have their head in the sand.
personally i am not offended.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
115. NO!!!!!!
I apologize for all who've done that to you. It is wrong.

We all of us, Northerners and Southerners, need to band together for LIBERTY.

Hell YES, you should fight your ass off.

And if nobody has said it to yuou lately: Thanks for being in the Battle for the Old American Republic! Not everyone is, you know.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
117. thanks to everyone who had encouraging words
Thanks for letting me rant.

And for those that had less than friendly words, well that's your right. ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #117
119. There's some gooood people here ..
:pals:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. oh, I never doubted that
I just got a snootfull of some of the others, and pitched a little fit. I'm better now. :)

Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #120
170. We got a "snootful" of you too, syrinx.
Those lies that Bear Bryant desegregated the Maryland athletic program in 1945 and Kentucky athletic program by '53? Those were real special.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #170
182. are you deaf?
If I was wrong, I'm wrong. I didn't lie. Maybe I was misinformed, but I wouldn't lie, especially since Google makes it pretty easy to debunk false assertions. But you totally ignore the truth about Paul Bryant. There's no credible evidence that he was ever a racist. This thread wasn't intended to be about Coach Bryant, but congratulations, you proved that my original complaint wasn't totally without merit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
123. YES, A LOT OF THEM DO!
This place can't go one fucking week before they just have to start an avalance of HATE THE SOUTH...FORCE THEM TO SECEDE threads. Look at the one about the female soldier's home town in WVA. Of course because they interviewed some hillbillies in her town, LET'S WRITE OFF THE WHOLE GOD DAMNED STATE.

Yes, Sy, I am completely fed up with this.
:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #123
184. delete
Edited on Thu May-06-04 11:38 PM by syrinx9999
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gpandas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
125. i'm sorry there are bigoted assholes on du...
but that's the price of freedom. also don't lump me with them
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kazak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
126. I certainly hope not...I am one.
But, I haven't gotten that impression at all. :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
127. not me!
I especially appreciate southern liberals

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skippysmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
128. I love all liberals
no matter where they are! Conservatives can kiss my ass, however.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
doni_georgia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
130. As your southern liberal next door neighbor in GA - I applaud you!
Edited on Thu May-06-04 03:41 PM by doni_georgia
Southern bashing is a bit of a sport. I get pretty sick of it myself. We're prejudged based on where we live - that's prejudice folks. I was born and raised in Atlanta. I love my city, and I love the beauty of my state, even though I don't care one wit for the political climate. I say y'all, eat peanut butter and banana sandwiches (with mayonnaise), eat boiled peanuts, and nothing beats my mama's cracklin cornbread. I love the rhythm of southern life, and the lilt of a true southern accent. I treasure spending days fishing at the lake and evenings sitting on the porch watching the lightning bugs . Yes, we have some bad things in our culture's history, but we also have some beauty. Believe it or not, the south is in itself a melting pot of different cultures and traditions. You can't paint us with a broad stoke of the brush. My husband's people in the low country of South Carolina are as different from my mom's folks from Alabama as someone from New York is from someone in Iowa. But what we do have in common is that it doesn't matter which southern state you are from, people think they already know ALL about you before you open your mouth good.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #130
135. I love the south!
Frankly, I didn't know that the female soldier featured in some of the Baghdad prison photos was from West Virginia. The reason that we have "West" Virginia is that they are the counties that didn't want to secede from the Union at the start of the Civil War.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Canadian_moderate Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #130
140. deleted
Edited on Thu May-06-04 04:22 PM by Canadian_moderate
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
carolinayellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
134. The bashers are a tiny minority
who deserve a lot less attention than they have received. They don't represent anything except bigotry and scapegoating.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #134
142. It's pretty sad that they don't realize a lot of us come here for support
because we don't exactly get it in our day-to-day lives.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Canadian_moderate Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
141. Liberal Americans in Canada feel much the same way at times
Even they get lumped in with the comments against America. Sometimes people forget to differentiate or use a little tact.

Don't make this a north/south thing. This is about right v. wrong, liberty v. rightwing conformity.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
145. Bashing is bashing
It's stupid and primitive. Liberals must unite from all over the country. I can't help it if some of the posters here bash Southerners (and have a ball doing it to Texans). I need their votes to get shrubito out of office.

I emailed one of the particularly hateful Texas-bashing posts to a friend. She emailed back that we were as bad as the Bushies. I had to agree.

But yeah, it's annoying. Just tell the basher that jealousy is driving their thinking. It's kind of fun to watch the responses to that one.

Heh-heh.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
153. Not me! You and Carville are ALWAYS welcome!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Lone Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
156. Shit! The DUERs dont want me?
Me and Morris Dees?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
157. No! We want you to multiply like rabbits!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
166. Hell no! We want you to get *found*!
See if we can pick off a couple of states below the Mason-Dixon. That way we can kick Bush* below his Mason-Dixon, if you receive my drift...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
doubles Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
167. I knocked on my neighbor's doors in California, no one answered the door,
Edited on Thu May-06-04 08:39 PM by doubles
In the South, most welcome me and open their door.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SCRUBDASHRUB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
177. I hear you, syrinx. I'm in Virginia (not the Deep South, but the South
nonetheless), and unfortunately, VA tends to vote Republican; this, however,is not how all of us feel. I wrote on Kerry's website to please come and visit VA and other southern states and to run his commercials here. I implored his campaign to not take us for granted. That, I think would be a big mistake.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
178. Nope.
Edited on Thu May-06-04 09:26 PM by RUMMYisFROSTED
Ignore the misguided few. (Wait, lol, maybe they're just blowing off steam or engaging in frat pranks! :think:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
180. thanks everyone!
And I mean everyone, for making it clear that the haters are a tiny minority of the people here. I already knew, I guess, but it's nice to see it proven in black and white. ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
181. I'd kinda like each of you to bring ten other dems to the polls with you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
187. I love southern liberals
They are a commodity and all, but when they are liberal, they tend to be LIBERAL, from what I understand, and very nice.

I don't want you guys to get lost, but I'm far from a typical DU'er.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Moloch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
189. I haven't seen that.

After living in pretty much every part of the country except for the great plains, I have never seen as much bigotry and ignorance as I have witnessed here in the south. As far as people from other region's stereotype of the south, I can say in living here for 10 years that it is completely justified. Certainly not all southerners fit the stereotype, but an overwhelming majority do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
190. I'm from central PA and there are a lot of dumb f*cks here, like the south
Of course I'm not a racist bastard like a lot of people here and there are people in the south who aren't but a majority are. I think democrats in that area are much braver than in liberal communities to deal with such an atmosphere.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Jul 23rd 2014, 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC