Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Flag Waver or Flag Burner ?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:19 AM
Original message
Poll question: Flag Waver or Flag Burner ?
some one brought this up in different thread

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. why the false dichotomy?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. Both.
Edited on Thu May-06-04 02:31 AM by TahitiNut
I honor the American flag with all the courtesies and protocols defined ... including destroying a tattered, worn, or stained flag by burning it, as defined by US Code. (I personally bury the ashes in the soil of the country.)

When the 'leadership' puts a stain on that flag, it deserves burning. The ONLY people who can bring dishonor to what that flag represents are the elected representatives of the people by acting obscenely contrary to our national honor and principles.

I never fly a flag that's tattered and soiled (like on a car antenna) and never fly it at night unless a light is shone upon it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noahmijo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I'm down with that opinion
I love this country. Just hate the current leadership.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. I don't love this country or any other country....
I do however love people and have compassion when they are hurt. This administration hurts people. Here and abroad.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robbob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. Wow, this whole flag thing is a real fetish
in the USA, eh? I'm Canadian, and this whole "Flag worship" is so completely foreign to our culture.

Of course, we've only HAD our flag since 1965, so take my comment with a grain of salt.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Not all of us share the fetish.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. waver
burning it is allowing the RW to coopt it
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
5. Neither n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zero Gravitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
33. Am I right in thinking...
that there's a real frog in there?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrankBooth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
36. I'm with you ...
Neither.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
6. Not one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftistagitator Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
7. Waver. The Right doesn't own the flag.
Although I agree that people have the right to burn the flag, that's my flag too. I'm not gonna let some rw bastard co-opt my country from me. Personally, however, I like the "Don't Tread on Me" flag more.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. exactly, why give the flag to the repigs
it belongs to all of us, it's our heritage, both the good and the bad...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blackcat77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. I'm a constitution-waver, thank you very much... nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. that is way cool
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sfwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
10. I wave burning flags at crowded protests.
It supplies much needed elbow room.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:19 AM
Response to Original message
11. Pagentry and symbolism
The flag is a symbol. Waving a flag is symbolic. Burning a flag is symbolic. They are on opposite ends of the spectrum, and yet, they coexist, one as a symbol of pride and one as a symbol of opposition.

It depends upon the individual. Personally, I am neither.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Egalitarian Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:04 AM
Response to Original message
12. I said burner,
although I never have and probably won't. I doubt I'll ever own one myself, unless I fly it alongside a peace flag and a flag of the world, or dare I say it-underneath a flag of the world and side by side with a peace flag. Personally, i find it silly to identify with a country. I am a human being first and only. I just happened to be born into this country. That being said, I'm feeling more inclined to burn lately, although in my more youthful days of indoctrination I would have answered "flag waiver".

Why identify with a flag at all? Isn't all identification and nationalism rooted in our past, those things we've been taught to be proud of? OUr present situation is a direct result of our bloody, greedy past. If you agree, where do you draw the line as to what you embrace? Do you forget the atrocities against the native peoples of N. America and embrace only our best achievements, etc? or vice-versa? All are reality. Silly?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. I agree. I do not consider myself an American...
Edited on Thu May-06-04 03:24 PM by info being
but a human.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:35 AM
Response to Original message
14. neither
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:27 AM
Response to Original message
15. Waver...
it's my flag and it's my country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
17. Fuck nationalism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Michael Costello Donating Member (179 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. I agree
The two options are you either love the US or hate the US. There is a third option being you're indifferent about the US, which probably describes me. I mean on one side of a big river, the river is called the Rio Grande and that side of the river is the USA. On the other side of the river, the river is called the Rio Bravo, and the land on that side of the river is called Mexico. There are no signs from the heavens showing that this river is any more important than any other river, it's just an idea, a concept, that this river is supposed to have some kind of effect on humans relations with one another. I don't think it should, so I suppose I am more of the internationalist concept than the nationalist concept. I do think local communities should be autonomous, something the people who run the USA nation apparently do not agree with.

I would not burn the American flag alone as it would say it would mean I have something against this idea of a nation and not the other ones. If one day the working people of the world all agreed to live in peace, and threw all of their flags on a big bonfire, on that day I would probably be happy to see the US flag burn. I don't find the US flag any more offensive than any other national flag though. Hell, the red stripes that represent the conquest of Ireland in the British flag offends me. Perhaps a Native American would look at the flag's 13 stripes and 50 stars, and see the stars as symbols of conquest as well. Which, considering the lack of respect for Indian treaties to this day, continues to this day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
19. Flag Washer.
If you really want to make a political statement, don't burn the flag, wash it.


:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
21. This is an inflammitory issue
Edited on Thu May-06-04 02:49 PM by Classical_Liberal
. I'm worried about the war. I don't understand why some leftist think it's more important to insult flag lovers than stop the war.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. i am not trying to be flame-alicious some one brought it up
that on DU there are flag wavers and flag burners and both are ok
as for the leftists you are talking about they are critquing nationalism which some of us see as the cause of war.Some believe it is stupid to worship a flag and some see stupidity in the idea of dividng up the globe into countries
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Nationalists have a point about one world government
being dangerous though. Imagine Bush controlled the whole globe. Additionally the flag is a symbol and I don't expect them to disappear so long as there are humans. It is about language itself. Flag burners create more heat than light because they look like they are opposed to all American values including good ones. It is inarticulate protest as far as I am concerned.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. all anti nationalists arnt for a one world gov
some dont believe in gov some believe in communuity gov but see people as people Also see Emma Goldmans Patriotism a menace to liberty
http://www.spunk.org/library/writers/goldman/sp000064.h...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
22. Both....so Don't Tread on Me.
Next silly question - Do you prefer cats or dogs?

WHO SEZ YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. Waver
I hope I never have to burn a flag. That would be very bad.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
29. Nationalism is the primary tool of dehumanization and fascism.
I've been posting this a lot lately but here it comes again:

Deeply indoctrinated blind emotional response to symbols is the most important tool in promoting fascism, something the US government excels at. Nationalism has the same murderous effect as racism. It defines 'others' as sanctioned targets for violence in the name of primal 'family values.'

I have studied the history, psychology, linguistics, and tactics of fascism in depth over the last few years. I've learned that nationalist identity is the single most important tool of fascism.

Group think is needed to prevent independent thought and action apart from the herd. Conformity and obedience when enemies are defined for you leads to dehumanization and atrocities such as My Lai and Abu Ghraib.

So I've put together some links to examine this destructive social phenomenon that I can't resist sharing with anyone who will listen since I judge it to be a rising tide that many won't notice until they are choking on it and wondering where the liberty they used to breathe went and what is that awful smell?

A famous British psychologist did an analysis of Bush*'s family history and personality. Little Georgie was abused, belittled, and overshadowed by his parents so he became an alcoholic, self-destructive, anti-intellectual, and cruel 'authoritarian personality.' His rebellion against his parents is killing many innocents.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1033904,00....
(So George, How Do You Feel About Your Mom and Dad?

This 'authoritarian' personality is the precursor to Fascism Receptivity as defined by researchers in 1950 who tried to understand how large populations could embrace dictators like Franco, Mussolini, and Hitler. Many Americans match the profile, especially religious fundamentalists. Surprised? I didn't think so. But no comparisons with Hitler, OK? 'Chosen Few' doesn't mean 'Master Race'...does it?
http://www.anesi.com/fscale.htm
(The F Scale Questionnaire to Determine Fascist Receptivity)

Another indictment of cruelty comes from this study on the components of conservatism studied in an academic model. It confirms differences we have noticed as liberals: fear of change, acceptance of inequality, black and white thinking, targeting of 'others.'
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_...
(What Makes a Political Conservative)

Now, the 14 scary symptoms of Fascism as a social phenomenon to tie it all together even...worse.
http://empirewatch.org/pages/_archives/fascism/pages/14...
(The Fourteen Symptoms of Fascism)

And now, an analysis of a Bush* State of the Union speech that illustrates the linguistic science of abusive speech used to psychologically manipulate and deceive the listener, something White House speech writers have mastered to diminish the power of the listener. Yes, the counterrevolution has been televised.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/130534_focusecond...
(The Power of the Presidency Resides in Language as Well as Law)

This article explains the power of repetition as mind programming and the tactics of disinformation and segregation of 'conspiracy' ideas to hide knowledge of government manipulation through the use of television and other ubiquitous media. The 1938 radio broadcast of 'The War of the Worlds' confirmed the power of mass deception that has been exploited for decades.
New! Improved! Coming to a theater near you!
http://www.mackwhite.com/tv.html
(The TV Hive Mind)

Here is an article that explores the marketing power of fear used by Detroit to sell Americans SUVs, along with help from Arnold Schwarzenegger and the first Bush Gulf war. The same methods were used to link these previous sales to the gutting of the Bill of Rights and an unjustified pre-emptive war all at the same time. What a campaign!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,995252,0...
Trading On Fear
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. have you read Patriotism A menace to Liberty by emma goldman
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Thanks for the link. Great stuff, very prescient. 100 years later yet-
"Thinking men and women the world over are beginning to realize that patriotism is too narrow and limited a conception to meet the necessities of our time. The centralization of power has brought into being an international feeling of solidarity among the oppressed nations of the world; a solidarity which represents a greater harmony of interests between the workingman of America and his brothers abroad than between the American miner and his exploiting compatriot; a solidarity which fears not foreign invasion, because it is bringing all the workers to the point when they will say to their masters, "Go and do your own killing. We have done it long enough for you."
>snip<
...it is probably even more important to carry the truth into the barracks than into the factory. When we have undermined the patriotic lie, we shall have cleared the path for that great structure wherein all nationalities shall be united into a universal brotherhood, a truly FREE SOCIETY."
----------------------------------
Unfortunately, the weaponization of space will allow the centralized powers to fight their own wars more and more just like Dr. frikkin' Evil.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/2025 /

Proposals here include global sensors coordinated with space lasers to create MITCH or Man In The CHair capability.

And they will frikkin' do it, too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. you're welcome
Edited on Thu May-06-04 09:15 PM by corporatewhore
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yella_dawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
30. Neither / Both
As a veteran and genuine patriot, I am disgusted and offended by the cavalier way in which the Flag is often treated of late. I saved a photo of Bunnypants signing a miniature flag, which is desecration and incredibly offensive. That arrogant piece of shit! I regularly see tattered, faded, and improperly displayed flags flown by those who haven't a freekin' clue as to the proper procedure or the true meaning of displaying this country's flag. At this point, I will not display the flag for fear of being mistaken for a false patriot.

I also believe the flag can be honored by burning it in protest. "The blood of patriots" and all that.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zero Gravitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
32. Neither
I am not a Nationalist and I do not worship the flag the way some do. On the other hand I have desire to burn a flag or to put down the country as whole, just our fascist government and its insane policies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indypaul Donating Member (896 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
35. Neither.
To best sum it up, I think it was a Texas State Representative that
said something to the affect, "I find myself more in sympathy with
those who would burn the flag tnd wrap themselves in the constitiution. Than those who would burn the constitution and
wrap themselves in the flag."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun Dec 21st 2014, 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC